Notice how many men who have enriched themselves from christianity, Falwell, Dobson, Hagee and Warren, etc., cannot keep moderate even in their caloric intake?

CONCERNED THE CHRISTIAN NOW LIBERATED wrote:

"Rick Warren should not be seeking answers of any kind from BO and JM. Warren should, however, be giving his answers/views on the flaws and errors in the various Christian religions.
A synopsis of said flaws and errors for the "newbies":
“Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects…In addition, his bookThe 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. www. earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html”

===================================

The problem with your continued Cut-N-Paste “refutations” of traditional Christianity is that you hold up as evidence, the most far-left advocates of a “Historical” Jesus. (i.e. The Jesus Seminar.) The scholars you advocate all hail from quite liberal backgrounds and their works are thoroughly saturated by their biases.

Prof. John P. Meier has written an excellent tome entitled: 'A Marginal Jew, Rethinking the Historical Jesus: The Roots of the Problem and the Person', that addresses their claims and recently penned a very scholarly essay entitled, “The Present State of the ‘Third Quest’ for the Historical Jesus: Loss and Gain” which also addresses their claims.

http://www.bsw.org/project/biblica/bibl80/Comm11.htm.

In addition to Prof. Meier, many other scholars such as Prof. Bruce Chilton, Prof. JP Moreland, Prof. F.F. Bruce and more have provided strong arguments for the validity of both the traditional Jesus, as well as the accuracy of the Bible.

Also, I cite your own source:

www.earlychristianwritings.com/THEORIES.html.

Keyword: THEORY, as opposed to FACT. The Kenerman English Multilingual Dictionary defines theory as, “an idea or explanation, which has not yet been proved to be correct.”

Let’s keep the Historical Jesus THEORY in proper perspective please.

====================================

“For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

This is a common misconception today. The theory states that Emperor Constantine convened the Council of Nicea in 325 a.d. to combat the emerging heresies such as gnosticism. To further insulate true Christianity from Arius and other Gnostics, Constantine had the cardinals “enhance” the Scriptures (Codex Vaticanus & Sinaiticus) to create & promote the Deity of Christ. This claim was debunked by the discovery of the Chester Beatty, John Rylands, as well as, the Oxyrhynchus papyri from 1896 – 1950’s. All of which are dated between 180 A.D. and 250 A.D. These papyri effectively Pre-date the Codices Vaticanus & Sinaiticus by over 150 years. In addition, these papyri were not available to Constantine as they had been hidden and forgotten during his predecessor’s, Diocletian, reign due to Diocletian’s habitual slaughter of Christians.

These Papyri contain passages such as Matthew 26:62-66 (Jesus acknowledging being the Son of God to the High Priest and the ensuing charges of blasphemy that follow.), Mark 4:25-26 (Jesus claiming to be the Messiah), John 10:33 (Jews attempting to stone Jesus for claiming to be God.), 2 Corinthians 13:14 (“May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.), etc that support every tenet of Christianity affirmed in the Nicean Creed over 150 years later.

==================================================

“Current crises:
Pedophiliac priests, atonement theology and original sin!!!!”

I’m no Catholic and don’t profess to represent them but I believe that pediphilia is endemic to the Catholic Church because of the forced vow of singleness thrust upon the priests. The Apostle Paul teaches that singleness is preferable to marriage in terms of serving the Lord, but marriage is perfectly acceptable too. Catholicism seems to ignore the latter part, and run with the former. (To be fair though, Protestant ministers do tend to run away with the church secretaries more.)

Atonement theology and original sin are all doctrines taught in the New Testament as evidenced by the aforementioned discovered papyri. I would love to know what characterizes those doctrines as “Crises”.

==========================================

Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

“This topic requires a huge treatment in and of itself. Rather than delve headlong into the arguments for and against the existence of the Supernatural, I assume it’s safe to say you don’t believe in the paranormal or the supernatural, and that’s fine. However, your disbelief does not qualify as evidence of the Supernatural’s non-existence. You exercise “faith” that the supernatural doesn’t exist simply because it can’t be “proven” scientifically. (How one could prove the Supernatural with the Natural is beyond me anyway.) However, Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence.

===========================================
“Current crises:

Adulterous preachers, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals (like Rick Warren?) and atonement theology.
If BO and JM are smart, they will put RW on the defensive.”

I would retort that there is no profession (aka John Edwards) immune to adultery. As long as man has a penis, the temptation of sexual immorality will always be present regardless of the job title. Some are better than others at resisting. Though held to a higher standard, clergy are no more immune to it than anyone else. In addition, there is nothing illegal, immoral, or unethical about making millions writing a book. There’s no increased piety in being poor as there is in being wealthy. It’s what you do with that wealth that matters. In the case of Rick Warren, he has 3 charitable organizations that he liberally donates to. You would be hard-pressed to make a “greed” argument against him.

Mr. McElvaine, thank you for this excellent commentary. I couldn't agree with you more. I once considered myself part of the "religious right" until that movement became more and more hateful. I was sitting in a religious-right-wing political strategy meeting when a woman commented something about the "damn liberal jewish women" in our community and I was shocked to my senses. I now consider myself to be spiritually a Christian and politically a liberal and I am very happy with that. If all christians would truly take to heart the words of Jesus when he said the most important law and the one that the rest of the law hangs on is "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and strength and the second like it, love your neighbor as yourself"...the world would be a much different and better place. I look forward to seeing the interviews between Rick Warren and the presidential candidates. Hopefully some good insight will come from it.

Great article. Good distinctions. Unfortunately for too many Americans, Obama will always be a Muslim because FOX said so and because his middle name is Hussein and because he looks like one and because that's all they need to know.

MetricSU wrote:

"An honest analysis of Josephus' Testimonium -- and there are many good ones -- concludes that it is likely a Christian insertion."

================================

Actually, a COMPLETE look at the scholarly treatment of Testimonium Flavius shows (much like every other topic in Christianity) a divided audience. There can always be found liberal views against and conservative views in favor of just about any topic in Christendom. (Especially in the area of Textual Criticism.) Liberal scholars such as Hardwick, Whealey, & Gauvin, would vehemently argue your side, whereas conservative scholars such as Meier, Pines, & Zindler would strenously beg to differ.

The existence of liberal views against is not, in and of itself, evidence. Simply that the paradigm of some scholars cause them to look for error, while the paradigm of others cause them to look for validity. The research is colored on both sides by the bias. Your attempts to hold the liberal side up as the paragon of truth only reveals your own bias.

============================

"I do note that you do not actually quote from the extant Antiquities; you instead use a version of the Testimonium that some apologists -- who realize Josephus would not have referred to Jesus as the Messiah, with claims he rose from the dead -- have HYPOTHESIZED was in the original."

I actually referred to Prof. Shlomo Pine's Arabic version of the 10th century which contained far less "Messiah superlatives" than the one you reference.

Pines suggests that this may be a more accurate record of what Josephus wrote, lacking as it does the parts which have often been considered to have been added by Christian copyists. This would add weight to the argument that Josephus did write something about Jesus.

==============================

"One might almost think that the Testimonium didn't exist until the 4th century. That is, if one is honest and can think rationally."

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, however, there are many Josephus scholars who would disagree with you.

Metricsu, Metricsu, Metricsu,

Once again:

See the publications and conclusions of the On Faith panelists and historic Jesus exegetes i.e. Professors JD Crossan, Marcus Borg, Elaine Pagels, Paula Fredriksen, Karen Armstrong and NT Wright.

Read about Apostle Thomas for verification of Christian claims.

BeowulfthePolitician:

An honest analysis of Josephus' Testimonium -- and there are many good ones -- concludes that it is likely a Christian insertion. I won't run through all of the arguments here. I do note that you do not actually quote from the extant Antiquities; you instead use a version of the Testimonium that some apologists -- who realize Josephus would not have referred to Jesus as the Messiah, with claims he rose from the dead -- have HYPOTHESIZED was in the original. This is pure speculation without an ounce of evidence. Apologists can't believe that no one in the entire first century heard anything about Jesus, so they insist that, while the extant text could not have been written by Josephus, he must have written something about Jesus. This is special pleading.

A point that is very telling is that no Christian apoligist until Eusebius in the 4th century (a stretch of more than 200 years) thought that Josephus' entry -- the only reference to Jesus by a non-Christian in the entire first century -- was worth referring to in defense of Christianity. One might almost think that the Testimonium didn't exist until the 4th century. That is, if one is honest and can think rationally.

Thinkaboutit, you are implying that Senator Obama is the slick politician who will what it takes to win the election, right? Throw his pastor under the bus, shake hands with any pastor with large following etc?

Reading the posts I see criticisms that Rick Warren is a slick businessman, etc. etc, and therefore why should Obama spend time with his followers...

Wake up!! Liberals are only 20-25% of the population!!

It was just a matter of time before Obama had to make a play for the middle of the roaders.

Hillary just made her play for the independents EARLIER than Obama.

I think Obama and Hillary really had few differences. And BOTH of them are/were being pragmatic.

So bring on Rick Warren and whoever else Obama has to shake hands with.

Bring on the big tent. I want Obama to WIN!

Ralph Reed? Is he out of jail yet?

I don't know if he's a "Jesus Thief", but he's certainly a regular thief!

JJ, i no longer want or desire to read your post, there is emptitness and revenge inserted in them

you are losing your touch~

EXCERPT:

Miriam LEiTAO (Post Global. On: Georgia Russian Invasion .Today. 08.14.08.

All Comments (25)
inheritors, lovers & Defenders of Holy Cosmic Nebula-Built Space-Ship Earth(s):

Note:

Fact: Mother/Father R-u-s-s-i-a does not want anymore Georgeon(s) , not only on their Soil, but away from it All!

PS: 2-Things:

1)
Stalin, who Murdered 22,000,000 Rusians (only 100,000 of his own fellow Georgians) is not forgotten by 99% of Russiians! AND

2)
ZOROASTER, of the FIRE (mono THEO) Religion, under King CYRUS the Great II of PERSiA/Iran, originated from Georgia!

PS: AMERiCA, Please sell back ALASKA, for the Same Price that Queen KATHERiNe the Great of Russia Sold it to YE!

B-I-G Question: What Would Ye hath Done If Russia (Czarist, not Commy) did not sell it to ye back then. Then What would Ye hath Done???? Yea Invade & Make-Up some Lie that Stupid Voters can Believe via MEDia , Satanic Lovers et al!?????????????

??? Well????? Well???????? Did Ye Forget How Mother/Father Russia Helped Kill GERMANY HiTLER, a CATHOLiC. Note: Stalin too was a Catholic!!!!!!!!!!!

August 14, 2008 8:13 PM

Just for the record, Pastor Rick Warren is known to give away 90% of his income, keeping only 10% for himself. His books alone have brought him enough and more money to live like a millionaire, but he lives a simple life. Hence the admiration and respect he commands. He WALKS the talk.

So what if his church is run like an organization. Imagine what the world would be like if all corporation bosses only took 10% of the nett profit for themselves and shared 90% with their employees, who do most of the work that generate the profits and gave a big chunk of their profit for good works.

Dear Judas Gutenberg,
If it were really just as simple as you propose, (August 14, 2008 12:13 PM) there would indeed be nothing "Jesus has to do with modern times." Fortunately for the world, it is not just that simple. Good luck to you.
Porzitsku in Nashville

With such a misleading title to this article, I was ready to chide Rick Warren over his apparent attempt to straddle the fence and serve two masters - Christ and the Political process. But reading the article, it looks like he is merely bringing both candidates into the church to moderate a "debate," or what passes for debate in our country. I have no objections to this. It sounds like Rick Warren is not taking sides (good), is fostering discussion - even debate - such as it is (better!) and personally staying out of the political orgy now in process in our country (best!).
Hopefully Rick Warren will stick to the script and eschew any temptation to wade in with political opinions, which would negate much of his professed Master's work. I'll be praying for you Rick!
Porzitsku, Nashville

ATT: B.e.o.w.u.l.f.t.h.e.P.o.l.i.t.i.c.i.a.n:

Note: YE (you & world) sound like a PRE-Apocalyptic Lover, more than a Defender! And Surely, a Knights HOSPITAL ye are not!

iMPORTANT Pre-Apocalyptic awareness; FACT:

Ye Mr. 'JOSEPHUS' + Mr. PAUL are rspectfully, the Founders of both SCRiPTURE + CHURCH, prior to ARiAN times ..

(not quite Arian-ism, like in , "JOKTAN-ian ECLAT{"ARiAN"}-NATiONAL PARTY, U.S.A. 2013+"}

.. when the Jealous competing "1st Council of the NiCAEA" , aka NiCOLAiTAN(s) seperated when hasling over Ye Pre-Apocalyptic

---

BY “i“: : [Please remove curly brackets; since the ‘NiCOLAiTAN’s are Jealous. Thank-A-Shame]

http://.......{J}{O}{Z}………………..{E}{V}{Z}…………….. {dot}…………………{US}

Please Visit the above URL. Thank-A-Shame. AN,

O.R.M.: O.rdained R.elationship M.inister ,. A Revelator & Defender of the 'Holy Cosmic Feeler Faith, aka 'Ho-Co-Fe-Fa' System; a belief like a religion, yet better that‘s based on TRUTH (opposite of MYTH Systems) & a Lover’s of the "O.U.R.-B.O.T.", aka the Holy-Cosmic Bible, ala "O.ne U.niversal R.eligion B.ook O.f T.rans{Finity}" aka “The RELiGiON of Everything before the SCiENCE of Everything” like-a-dat. Finally!

monel wrote:

"Whether or not "Warren is in the religious middle" is immaterial. Like all the "superstar" religious figures in America today, ALL of them will ask you for money in the end."

===========================
Perhaps it's because they are Non-Profit Organizations, and as such, are not PERMITTED to engage in profit-generating enterprises.

Also, maybe it's because the Bible teaches that followers of God are SUPPOSED to financially support the Church.

(This is a universally-held principle amoung all 3 Abrahamic faiths. The offering for the Christian, the tithe for the Jew, the zakat for the Muslim.)

It is no more wrong for a religious institution to ask for donations than for the Sierra Club or PETA to ask for donations.

Mike D. wrote:

"Usually as soon as I hear or see the word "megachurch" I tune out and move on. For the most part the pastors and members of these churches think that the more bodies are in the pews the more favored by God they are. Sort of like Hitler and his giant rallies..."

==============================

Ironically, the 1st church in the Bible was a "megachurch". They were over 3,000 strong.

"So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls." (-Acts 2:41)

With all the apostles & 1st-hand eyewitnesses of Christ running around, and miracles happening everywhere, you probably would've hated it. (Too much like "Hitler", right?)

Herbjay wrote:

"Hijacked Jesus? There's nothing to hijack. Such a person did not exist in history. There is no reliable, contemporary, non-christian documentation of his supposed life."

====================

The 1st century Roman Historian (non-religious), Josephus, writes in his book entitled, "Antiquities", (18:63-64)

"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus, and his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon their loyalty to him. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive. Accordingly they believed that he was the Messiah, concerning whom the Prophets have recounted wonders."

Hi Everyone,

I am a Christian, and Church and State should be kept as separate as possible. I disagree that Rick Warren is in a "religious middle". Reading his book, I found the man to be highly contradictory of himself from paragraph to paragraph. His attempts to be in the "middle" have made his voice more muddled and confusing than anything.

Many of you have correctly stated that living with purpose and contributing good to society is not owned by religious groups. What makes all faiths unique is their explanation and relationship to the divine. This should be kept out of how we run the government.

When they tried to make Jesus a king during his time on earth, he basically took off, quite literally, for the hills. When Peter cut off the ear of a Roman guard arresting Jesus, he was rebuked by the man himself. While I am a person of deep faith, I recommend that religious people avoid uniting country and God. It makes fools of people and gives God a bad name. It also creates intolerance when there should be universal tolerance. In the same token I recommend that the civil magistrate not interfere with faith groups.

And for everyone who criticizes those who only work on Sundays and have ridiculous amounts of money and who hate the mega-churches.

More power to you. I don't like them either. I'm glad the Senate is investigating those corrupt millionaire televangelists.

What does God ever need with money?

Whether or not "Warren is in the religious middle" is immaterial. Like all the "superstar" religious figures in America today, ALL of them will ask you for money in the end. Contribute, donate, offer... just more requests for money to allow them to continue to ask for money. Now some do some good things for those in need, but if the situation arises that they need a new satellite uplink, then I'm afraid that the "least among us" will have to wait. While still being a spiritual person, I have to say that I will never trust a person who talks for a living, especially when they only work on Sunday.

Usually as soon as I hear or see the word "megachurch" I tune out and move on. For the most part the pastors and members of these churches think that the more bodies are in the pews the more favored by God they are. Sort of like Hitler and his giant rallies. This is a sensible column that kept my attention, however.

There's more than one set of good "purposes" that can drive a life, however. There are many "purpose-driven" lives out there that are not colored by religious beliefs and are positive contributions to humanity.

I'm still a little confused about one thing: what exactly does Jesus have to do with modern times? He was a rabble rouser in the Holy Land two thousand years ago, one of many. The Romans figured he was a making the Palestine province difficult to govern so, as they did with many other troublemakers, they put him on a cross to be eaten by the crows.

Some of the followers of Jesus happened to be great at public relations and now one billion people are Christians. But this has little to do with Jesus himself.

In my opinion, we'd all be better off if we used the accumulated knowledge our species has gained since Christ's time to tackle the problems of today, instead of obsessing about someone who preached and died in completely different times. Christ didn't have to deal with global warming, peak oil, embryo research, or the the atom bomb. Paying attention to what his opinion might have been is an idiotic distraction.

Rick Warren should not be seeking answers of any kind from BO and JM. Warren should, however, be giving his answers/views on the flaws and errors in the various Christian religions.

A synopsis of said flaws and errors for the "newbies":

Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. www. earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

Current crises:

Pedophiliac priests, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

Current crises:

Adulterous preachers, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals (like Rick Warren?) and atonement theology.

If BO and JM are smart, they will put RW on the defensive.

inherotor(s), Lover(s) & Defender(s) of Holy Cosmic Nebula-Built Space-Ship Earth(s) of Many!
--

ATT: J C,

Right On! Apocalyptically, that 'competing for a name for their-god, instead of O.U.R. G-D effect, as Phenomena-On ,is called,

"Synergetic-less, "SPLiT-MiNDED-THiNKiNG !" And

Apocalyptically Speaking they [Pre-Apocalyptarians, aka NiCOLAiTAN(s)] are also labeled, by US (ECLAR{ARiAN}'s) as having acute

"Pre-Apocalyptic SYNDROME" & "RELiGiO JEALOUSY PSYCHOSiS!"

---

Note: These NiCOLAiTAN(s)

(as if 'Ministers-Of-Everything', short for 'God Players' or 'BOLLiXER'(s), aka 'ANTi-"ECLAT{i}ON"s Nationals'}

Worship [man-made] "JEALOUSY", hence they blindly worship FEAR! And

WE, Joktanian 'Apocalyptarian-Nationals' instead,

[where Each HU{MATE}-Apocalyptarian , not HUMAN-PRE-Apocalyptarian anymore, is each a unique immortal , a 'Automatic' Citizen/Denizen of Holy Cosmic NEBULA-Built space Ship MA/PA-Earth(s)]

Worship NOT-JEALOUSY & or a FEARiNG G-D' [innate] System!

iMPORATNT: WE Joktan Eberu Race of America & Beyond are called (by them NiCOLAiTAN's dressed in Pre-Apocalyptic Old Song/storys) as

"ANTi-Judeo-Christs!" or ANTi-Judeo-JU's! or Anti-Judeo-islamics! or Anti-Judeo-Hindus! or Anti-Buddhistas et al!

--- Behold, GOOD Tidings "i" brimngeth this World:

The Religion of Everything, before the Science of Everything is Now RAPTURED (aka ZiLLZAL, TEKUN, KINDULA, 'REVELATiON' ('opposite of Secret or hiding' Heavenly MANNA, or Holy UMMAH, or Holy KARMA or TRUE (opposite of MYTH) knowledge from Us all etc..).

PS: since it is still a bg business, these NiCOLAiTAN(s), will never admitt, that there is something all together Wrong with their Religio & Thus Jealousy competing Religio(n)'s!

SOO, Folks like Mr. R. WARREN & CO., will never admitt that their Religion {Judeo-Christianutty) is severly flawed!

--- WHEREFORE:

HALLALUYA!

‘The RELiGiON Of Everything, before the SCiENCE Of Everything is upon Us-ALL!

MODERN-MORALiTY is Superior to ANT BiBLiCAL-MORALITY, if Any, Anymore!

Praise the NOT-JEALOUS & Thus FEARLESS 'HOL{i}NO-MEN!

Goodbye ALL, EVERY & ANY; "PRE-APOCALYPTiC" thinking folk!

Goodriddance TENACH(s)! (Judeo MOZEUS),
Goodbye BiBles(Judeo-JEZEUS),
Goodbye QURAN(s) (Jude-Muhhamada-Zeus),
Goodbye GiTA(s) (Judeo-VyasaZEUS),
Goodbye TRiiTAKA (Judeo-GAUTAMA-ZEUS!)
Goodbye (ALL/EVERY & ANY, Pre-Abrahamic & Pre-Vedic Pagans/Idolatrs Worshipers et Al!
goodbye Witches, Wicaans, Shamans, Voodooists et al!

ALL of the above are 'iMPORTED" man made Religgion(s), not MADE , (nor Propheceid) in Sweet Sweet U.S. of A.!

Goodbye EViLGELiCAL(s)!
Goodbye PROTESTANTS!
Goodbye CATHOLiCS!
Goodbye JEWS!
Goodbye HELLENiCs Greek-Russo Othodox!
Goodbye HinDUs!
Goodbye BUDDHiSTS!
Goodbye MORMONs!
Goodbye Siks! SUFi, etc.. Pagans, Witches, Shamans, Voodoists et al!

H E L L O: APOCALYPTARiAn Joktan-NATioNALs U.S.A. 2013+!

Is it true that Rick Warren is charging $500 per seat for this event and NOT giving the money to charity? Hmmmm, how Christian-like is that?

quote: {Rather, Warren is in the religious middle, where, as the enormous popularity of his book, "The Purpose Driven Life," attests, most Americans of faith are to be found. He opposes abortion, but his main focus is on the issues on which Jesus focused: poverty, disease, hatred, community, and stewardship of the environment.}

WHAT??? When the tower fell on all those "innocent" people, what did Jesus say? He didn't talk about building reforms. He said "repent, or you too will perish". His focus was not on the environment, poverty, or any of the above. It was to LOVE as God LOVES and to serve God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. His focus was to show people the character of His Father and to come and die for the sins of the people so that we might be restored to God. He came to DIE. We ALL die--solving poverty and environmental issues is only a temporary fix. We have a SIN problem that Jesus came to fix if we will only receive the gift and make Jesus Lord and Master, the decision-maker of our lives.

Presidential candidates should avoid religious forums hosted by Christians (and other faiths) like the plague. If we ever hope to re-establish a true Constitutional government post-Bush, the candidates should start honoring the wisely established bright line separating Church and State - wherein ALL voters are included, and ALL questions are equally valid. We have strayed very far from the kind of government envisioned by the Founders.

The continuing religious overtones of this campaign is disconcerting to say the least - but of course, the candidates see the practical necessity of courting Christian voters above all, given the overwhelming numbers involved.

It gives me the slightly queazy feeling that religion is being invited to play far too big a continuing role in government - and a role that the Bush government clearly encouraged from start to finish.

This is not your grandfather's government - and in certain ways that is unfortunate.

Although I support the changing of the minds of religious folk in America, I ask:
Please stop forcing your religion on me. We are all SICK of hearing everyone's "beliefs" about the unknown. I intend no disrespect when I allege we will never get past where we are in development, or simply not survive as a species until we adopt what I call The Universal Commandment:

"Keep Your God to Yourself"

Thank you,

-gkam-

While I agree that Rick Warren is not a Dobson, Robertson, Falwell or Hagee (i.e. politicians desguised as church leaders), he is hardly a paragon of what a Christian leader should be. His primary emphasis is on organizing the church as if it were a corporation, to be super efficient. Hence, this fixation with megachurches, organized neatly (just like IBM) but empty spiritually. I challege anyone reading this post to cite one book by Warren that deals with interpreting Scripture and teaching Scripture (for example, the Book of Revelation or Daniel). Mr. Warren would do well in studying the 7 churches in Revelation 2 and 3, and how Christ fond fault with them all.

While I agree that Rick Warren is not a Dobson, Robertson, Falwell or Hagee (i.e. politicians desguised as church leaders), he is hardly a paragon of what a Christian leader should be. His primary emphasis is on organizing the church as if it were a corporation, to be super efficient. Hence, this fixation with megachurches, organized neatly (just like IBM) but empty spiritually. I challege anyone reading this post to cite one book by Warren that deals with interpreting Scripture and teaching Scripture (for example, the Book of Revelation or Daniel). Mr. Warren would do well in studying the 7 churches in Revelation 2 and 3, and how Christ fond fault with them all.

Dr. McElvaine was a professor of mine at Millsaps. He is a brilliant guy, a true thinker who arrives at his theories through exhaustive research and reflection. This column is a perfect example. McElvaine, like many of us, are sick of religious extremists with Jesus complexes joining forces with the corporate bigwigs and fooling 53% of Americans into voting for idiots like W. Dr. McElvaine, if you're reading this... I like your book.

Doug M.

DCP - Obama voted against that act in Illinois because 1) there was language in it that could have been used to challenge Roe v. Wade, which he does not want to do and 2) there was already a law on the books in Illinois that said the same thing. The "Born Alive Infant Protection Act" was a trap to catch pro-choice politicians in to smear them in the future.

As for Rick Warren - he creeps me out less than most of the mega-church preachers. But, as a former Catholic turned Pagan, anything "mega-church" creeps me out.

Smellthecoffee said:

"There is no such thing as moderate religious organizations. By definition, religious organizations are divisive as each one seeks to differentiate themselves from other organizations. For example, this ridiculous idea that you are judged by a God and will either go to heaven or hell was invented by man to divide one group of people from another. Religion IS the problem."

The first part of his point, I would agree with. Then again, that definition could be applied to ANY organization Religious or non-religious. What defines organizations are differences not similarities. Does anyone talk about what Republicans and Democrats agree on or what policies the NAZIS implemented that no one took issue with? Therefore, your point is smoke and mirrors. If you don't believe in any religion, fine that is your business. Just don't try and hide behind "intelligent" sounding talk. Think about what you are saying. The only way there would be no divisiveness is if everyone thought exactly the same. What a scary notion.

As a fairly mainstream Catholic I was "put off" by your list of "Jesus Thieves" and the Evangelical movement for years. Rick Warren, no matter what your faith, is an example of a clergyman who takes his vocation seriously. I intend to watch on Saturday and hope millions of others do as well.

He and many other Evangelicals are sick of their faith being hijacked. Jesus once drove the moneychangers out of the temple. Perhpas next time he'll drive out the "fakirs".

Past. Warren is very much in line with scripture and would never be caught propogating blatant political maneuvers, such as the recent video on Dobson's FoF website, in which some phony Christian was trying to organize a mass prayer for torrential rain to drown out the Obama speech at the upcoming DNC convention in Denver. Real Christians don't depend too heavily on politics to solve problems. If they do it's an indication that they really don't believe God's calling the shots. I believe Warren has a chance to recapture the waylayed Christians and encourage them to focus on "feeding his sheep" and caring for "the least of these".

What is the business with this religious middle? These people seem to take only some of what the bible says and not others? Religious middle folks are essentially making up their own religion. If you're a christian you either take the whole bible our you give up your christianity. If you're a christian and believe that the bible is the inerrant word of god, there is no room for wiggle here. You either believe slavery is ok or you don't. The bible says it is. There is no middle ground here. Middle of the road christians are essentially cowards, they don't want to admit that there are terrible things in the bible so they only focus on the convenient stuff...the stuff that makes them feel fuzzy inside...while ignoring the rest of God's wills.

God is just a figment of your imaginations. Humans invented religion so they could pretend they are not just sacks of water and meat that die just like every other mammal in the world. Everyone has to be special, everyone has to be "chosen". Everyone has to have an after life where your get some kind of reward, be it virgins or whatever.

You would get a lot more out of life if you simply followed the teachings of Jesus because he was a good guy rather than believing there is an invisible man in the sky. Imagine living your life like there was no after life, how much more you would be inclined to do and to see?

This was Jesus's message. The kingdom of heaven is not a place you go, its the feeling you get before death knowing you lived the good life, vs the feeling you will have knowing you could have been a better person. That is why asking for and giving forgiveness is so important. Hell is an eternity of suffering because once you die, there is no going back to life to take back those things you said, or make up with an old friend or family member. Do you burn in a lake of fire and physically suffer? No, you don't. You die, but your not at peace.

Since someone else mentioned it- Joel Osteen is not Christianity lite. He is a motivational speaker who tells people to think good thoughts. Period.

I agree that Rick Warren is on everybody's good list. He did make a few Christian leaders mad when he began to support AIDS activism and environmental issues, but he only offended a few stiff-shirts. I don't agree with the statement that Obama is doing his best to be a follower of Jesus. Where is that coming from? Did you know about his vote on the Born Alive Infant Protection Act in Illinois before you made that statement? Apparently not. If Obama is trying hard to follow Jesus, then he needs to pick up the pace before he gets lost. Or is he already lost in his pursuit for political power?

my advice is stay away from all religions it POISONS everything it touches!!

There is no religious test to be president. Why do these superstar ministers insist that candidates need tocome one bended knee to their mega churces for a blessing or a curse?

Whether it's Rick Warren, John Hagee, Joel Osteen or Richard Roberts - what they really want you to do is fleece the flock at every opportunity. Calling politicians to their churches is more a grab for power and influence than it is to have a rational dialog about the issues of the day.

Warren's "invitation" is only mega church theatre.

I want my president to have a solid moral compass but she or he does nto have to subscribe to my faith or anyone elses.

Someone in the "religious middle" probably has no idea what to believe. The hallmark of most organized religions is that their followers believe that theirs is the one and only way. So no one can "be in the middle" about religion. But if America is proof of any one set of beliefs, it is that there is no single, correct way to do anything. The country became great not by following a single faith but by allowing all faiths to co-exist, however rocky the road has been. Somehow we seem to have forgotten this. I pity the candidates. If they play up to the "wrong sect" of Christians, they get hammered. If they court Muslims, Jews, Hindus or Scientologists -- anyone but Christians -- they get hammered. Better to leave religion out of politics and politics out of religion. Each has managed to become screwed up on its own.

Rick Warren is just another one of those mega-church super star pastors. He's almost as good at marketing as George Lucas...Purpose Driven life the book, Purpose Driven life the coffee mug, Purpose Driven life the tee-shirt, Purpose Driven life the dinette set and on and on. Then he gets smaller churches around the world to buy his book in bulk to get all the attendees to buy in at a reduced rate, then his work book, meet in a small group for evangelizing (i.e. recruit) your neighbors. He’s almost as good as Amway. It's just a big marketing thing he's just as much a huckster as any of them it's just he makes you feel good instead of calling you a sinner like the other guys. How’s it go, you attract more flies with honey than vinegar?

As for the other "Xians" the biggest one of all was the Apostle Paul...I challenge you to read the gospels as if you never read them before and then read the epistles written by Paul and tell me if you see the same teachings? All the things people dislike about the "Xians" come from Paul's teaches on non-believers, women, government, homosexuality, child rearing etc etc. Go ahead and read the book of Revelation and tell me you think Jesus is still a nice peace loving guy? Just like any other cult of personality in world history people make up stuff about them after they die to make them look divine or special.

This still smacks of a religious test. A presidential candidate is not required by the Constitution of the United States to profess any religious preference.

Warren may be Christianity lite, similar to Joel Osteen in Houston, but the reality is that it is still a "genuflect" to a dogma that not all Americans adhere to.

Hijacked Jesus? There's nothing to hijack. Such a person did not exist in history. There is no reliable, contemporary, non-christian documentation of his supposed life.

Movie trailer for IOUSA is below!!

WOW.....It looks like an EXCELLENT break down of our current SNAFU!! I congratulate ANYONE who can get this message to the pacified masses, while we still have anything left that isnt owned by the Chinese!!

Our government has so completely FAILED US!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBo2xQIWHiM
Edit Comment

That Vertical Relationship

Moses and Jesus declare, in articulating the First and Greatest Commandment, that individuals should square-up their vertical position first.

The author, and others like Jim Wallis, only address the Horizontal aspects covered by the 2nd Commandment, which is like unto the First.

There is no such thing as moderate religious organizations. By definition, religious organizations are divisive as each one seeks to differentiate themselves from other organizations. For example, this ridiculous idea that you are judged by a God and will either go to heaven or hell was invented by man to divide one group of people from another. Religion IS the problem.

In fact, the words faith and bigotry are almost synonymous in meaning. If you claim to be a "moderate" christian you are still buying into the idea that non-christians will go to hell. There is nothing moderate about that.

The only thing we should "thank God" for is that the founding farthers of this country wisely made a clear distinction between church and state. If only we could live up to those ideals!

Dobson, Falwell, Robertson, Reed -they didn't have to use christianity to be evil, it wasn't the christianity that made them evil, it's just a convenient mass delusion these truly evil men are using to access the idiots.

They aren't servants of any gods, but the word "servant" does come into play when discussing them.

They are taking advantage of the preexisting servility of the brainwashed believers for personal power ... and who knows? Why do people want power anyway? I suspect it is a micropenis-driven problem.

McElvaine completly misunderstands Jesus' message and mission. And because of that misunderstanding, he gets everything wrong having to do with Christianity. Jesus came to secure salvation for his believers, not for the agenda McElvaine thinks he came for.

Disgusting spectacles of what Christianity has come to mean in Cheney's America. Disgusting imposition of "religion" into American democracy. Disgusting posts by right-wing neochristians praising their twisted demagogues like Reed, Falwell, Roberston, Dobson and Haggard.

I'm sure Jesus is very proud of you all. If I were Jesus, I would change my last name.

"By Saturday night we should have a better read on how religion will play out in this year's election." This is the last sentence of McElvaine's post and I ask, "What has happened to our political system? Who cares how religion plays out in the election? Specifically who cares if someone is a Christian or not? When did that become the litmus test for a potential president?" I can't imagine how, by these standards, any Jewish candidate would fare among conservatives. Surely that candidate would further the Jewish custom of having every male born in the US circumcised but would do so in a sneaky way by passing a law innocently called No Foreskin Left Behind and would promote the law by the Congressional testimony of an army of "medical experts" who will attest to the absolute medical necessity of the procedure. Does this sound ridiculous? Sure does and so does the whole discussion or rather babble regarding the religious position, belief, orientation or whatever of the presidential candidates. We need to get on with a discussion of how the candidates will deal with the real needs of this country rather than how close to Jesus each of them is.

joke dog boy green http://www.thedailygreen.com greed deliver canada http://www.visaamerica.com

all car mail go site tree english german global land free pets me frog busy glass

trust kitchen yes yes all site sun pets

Being a heathen-american(I'm still waiting for that special status so I can get free money from the government or whatever, guess I'll be waiting for a while), I don't give a hoot what religion other people practice, juuuuust so long as worship services don't become compulsory or something, or they start writing legislation down at Our Lady Of The Overstuffed Pocketbook, in either case that'd be cause for reform on the whole topic of religion and government, no, my major concern is that government really seems to need to figure out how to do better work on budgeting, and chasing down fraud and mismanagement. There's been quite a bit of high-dollar funnybusiness going on in D.C. and in other environs surrounding different aspects of government, what was it they said, something like 60 billion worth of fraud and so forth just in the area of Medicare, and the national debt increases at the lackadaisical rate of some 3 billion per DAY, yeah, I'm for seeing Congress get a good handle on the budget, and charging themselves and each other with the duty of due diligence in their stewardship of same. One note here, though, WAS Jesus really concerned with stewardship of the environment? That sounds like something that was penciled in AFTER the fact, there. I don't seem to remember any Biblical references to DOW chemical etc. Hmm....hmmm....

B-man:

Christians by definition are non-spiritual, in that they believe all humans are inherently flawed sinners, separate from God, and that without accepting Jesus as their savior, deserve to burn in eternal hell.

Spiritual people (i.e. non-Christians) believe that all humans are divine beings and are pieces of God.

Which group do you thing would create a better world?

August 14, 2008 2:58 AM

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Only Hinduism has such an understanding of human beings, that too at the highest mystical level. At lower levels Hindus are destined to be reincarnated over and over again.

Neither Judaism, Islam or Buddhism believe that all humans are divine beings and pieces of God.

If you are so anti-Christian you must at least provide informed opinions.

It is true Islam has no real sense of sin. Are you a Muslim?

Christians by definition are non-spiritual, in that they believe all humans are inherently flawed sinners, separate from God, and that without accepting Jesus as their savior, deserve to burn in eternal hell.

Spiritual people (i.e. non-Christians) believe that all humans are divine beings and are pieces of God.

Which group do you thing would create a better world?

I don't know much about the bible but the phrase Xians seems an odd derision to me. X has for centuries been shorthand for Christ (see Xmas but I've seen other examples). So all McElvaine is saying is these people he despises should be called Christians. Not very clever.

There have been many false prophets in Christian history in virtually every culture that accepted/adopted/tolerated the faith. Okay, I'm assuming this point, but that's because it seems like a relatively easy way for someone to exert power over the religious crowd. So what these guys on the "Christian Right" are doing is nothing new.

But that doesn't excuse the fact that they talk and act like they have never read the Bible. As a life-long Christian I get so offended by the fact that I have to defend the faith against those who insist that they are the most faithful -- or rather, the people whom these guys influence, such as fellow church members, co-workers and friends.

And the special problem with this situation that has persisted for decades now in our society is that they have an enormous influence on our country and, by extension, the rest of the world. If Christianity in America followed these leaders, I think we would certainly end up like Europe, where the faith, after being adulterated and bludgeoned to oblivion by the very people who purported to be the leaders of the Way, will decay and be ignored by most of the population.

Perhaps the biggest obstacle is that Jesus calls us to have the faith translate to how we actually live our lives, rather than have it be a religion to be practiced. It should be evident in how we speak and behave in the mundaneness of our lives much more than on the pulpit or the podium. I think Rick Warren thankfully gets this, and that he, like other church leaders, has to guard himself from becoming another loud, self-absorbed pharisaical religious figure. It takes courage and certain strength to remain this way, and I appreciate him for it.

I've scanned this guy's book. His "Jesus thieves" are some of the most hard-working, sincere, doctrinally pure servants of God you'll find. Being on this guy's "hit list" should be a badge of honor. The Post can do much better than this charlatan.

A couple of years ago Rick Warren sent out an email to ministers and said that he didn't know anything about AIDS .. his wife had to tell him ... this was in 2001 or 2002. What Rick had discovered really was "faith-based grants" and a way to get the money for his and other Christian churches .. and NO-bama wants to "INCREASE faith-based grants" for people like Rick and his faith-ful buddies!

Not much Christian love from you, Robert. Lots of finger pointing -- just the thing you say you hate about other faith folks. The reason Rick Warren can get both candidates is because he spends his time HELPING people, both spiritually and physically -- not putting them down, as Ted Haggard and Robert McElwaine love to do. The people who hate Dobson et al. because they hate are in the same camp as Dobson et al.

Enemy Of The State:
You said:
Rick Warren may not be Jerry Falwell, but I'm still uncomfortable with any political figure getting too cozy with the clergy.

Well, die-hard liberal that I am, of course I am edgy too. I am, however, a believer. Warren, by many accounts, is the real thing. Not to say I agree with him on everything, no! But he is steadfastly non-partisan, and apparently has no McMansion or fancy cars. He has, along with the usual evangelical views, embraced such issues as world hunger and disease, which is anathema to the usual crowd of right-wing religious Neanderthals. I'd say, let's give him a chance.

Rick Warren may not be Jerry Falwell, but I'm still uncomfortable with any political figure getting too cozy with the clergy.

Mr. Rabbi/Yashua JESUS said,

"HATE!", Hate ye Spousa, Kids, Hate ye Brethrens & Sisters & HATE Self..."

Note: iF ye Believe not "i", then please see YE (yours & world)

ANY bible (printed by the 'CROWN', like KJVersion or not) @t LUKE:14:26 , et seq.

--- AND, See @ LUKE: 12:51, et seq.

Mr. Rabbi/Yashua JESuS also saith, since WARREN & CO. believe he Existed for three Years preaching. (does not include infant Jezeus suddenly preaching scripture as soon as he was born in the maingers) , FREUDiANTLY SlIPing & Prophetically said,

""i" not come [but in P-U-R-P-O-S-E] to give PEACE, but rather the PURPOSE is about giving Ye, WOM/MAN on EARTH, WAR/DiViSiON..!" [similarly said].

---

Vote: NO to any, every & all 'Faith Based" Initiatives coming from any PUBLiC OFFiCial or Intitution thereof! iNSTEAD,

VOTE: To allocate 'Tax Reciepts' (for Hand Outs] to SECULAR based Organizations that are more readaly avilable at the GRASS ROOTS LEVEL, in all 50 contingent States! Or ELSE,

VOTE: REMOVE all, Every & any Religio I.R.S., 'Tax-Free-Status' [a Privilige, nor a Right] in Sweet sweet U.S. of A., Today! not Tommorrow! Note: Since ye jealous folk bank voters having short memorries, or lack Historic TRuTH (opposite of MYTH) that OBAMA already was warned [by IRS] , via an attempt to Politicizing a Church's Congregants during his [Church's Leaders or their ventriloquist that is] campaign for Prez!

VOTE: Preserve; Hol{i} Cosmic Mariage, between a real Man (aka MAVORiTE) and a real Lady (aka SPORADE)! Lastly, for now,

VOTE: SiNGULARiTY for the "O.ne U.niversal R.eligion" [O.U.R.] Book, in the U.N.m not MY or THEiR's Pre-Apocalyptic-Nationals competing for a name for their-god systems [YE], instead of O.U.R.-G-D [Apocalyptarian-Nationals]!

---

QUESTiON: When will Ye 'SuperStupidStitous' so called "G-D PLAYERS" , from LEFT, MiDDLE & RiGHT, Stop meddling in SECULAR Business, conrary to MODERN-MORALiTY LAW, not Biblical LAW????

AMAZiNG! (No Grace).

PS:
ALL man made , as if be genuine religio(n)'ABRAHAMiC' System(s) [Judeo-Ju, Judeo-Christs, Judeo-Islamicas and Splinter, copy cat groups] AND

ALL 'VEDiC' System(s) and their splintered CULT-ures & SECT-ions of the Judeo-Buddhist, judeo-Hinduists etc..

Should be SHAME of YE Pre-Apocalyptic Man Made, zero ECLAT made, un holy Systems of belief(s)!

HENCE: SiNGULARiTY of REligion(1 or Mono), not PLURALiTY of Religion (>1 or Poly deity's..), aka MODERN-MORALiTY isSuperior to any Biblical-Morality, if Any!

BY: JOKTAN NATiONALS U.S.A. 2013+.

Sorry you think Ralph Reed is a "Jesus-Thief".

I hope for the day when the "heartland" of America denotes NOT some "religious middle," but an educated populous who have the ability to see beyond their own selfish, short-term wants and needs.