"O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even though it is against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, be he rich or poor, Allah is a better Protector to both (than you) are. So follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you may avoid justice, and if you distort your witness or refuse to give it, verily, Allah is Ever Well-Acquainted with what you do" (Quran 4:135).

The Prophet(pbuh) said that backbiting is anything that you say about someone in his absence that may displease him. When he was asked by one of the Companions, ‘even if he is as I describe him?' he responded by saying, If he is as you describe him then you are guilty of backbiting, otherwise you are guilty of slander (which is worse than backbiting) (Sahih of Muslim).

To add emphasis to how awful slander is, consider that the Prophet (pbuh) said it is worse than adultery because if a person commits adultery, Allah can forgive him if he repents. But a slanderer will not be forgiven until the person he had been speaking about forgives him (Baihaqi).

"O you who believe! Let not a group scoff at another group, it may be that the latter are better than the former; nor let (some) women scoff at other women, it may be that the latter are better than the former, nor defame one another, nor insult one another by nicknames. How bad is it, to insult one's brother after having Faith. And whosoever does not repent, then such are indeed wrong doers" (Quran 49:11).

The Prophet(pbuh) said: If a man's Muslim brother is slandered in his presence, and he is capable of defending him, and does so, Allah will defend him in this world and in the next. But if he fails to defend him, Allah will destroy him in this world and in the next.

"The recompense for an evil is an evil like thereof, but whoever forgives and makes reconciliation, his reward is due from Allah. Verily, He likes not the Zalimun (oppressors)" (Quran 42:40).

This black man is our leader (Year 634)

When the Muslims conquered Egypt at the time when Omar ibn al Khattab (may Allah be pleased with him) was Khalifa, a Muslim leader who happened to be a black man named Ubaydah ibn Thamit, took a party of the Muslims to meet Muqawqis, the Christian leader of Egypt.

When the Muslims came to Muqawqis, with Ubaydah in the lead, Muqawqis was frightened by the color of his skin.

‘Get this black man away from me and bring someone else,' he demanded. The Muslims refused. They insisted that Ubaydah was the best among them and was their leader who they obeyed and whose judgment they deferred to. They told Muqawqis that the color of a person does not matter to them. Finally Muqawqis had no choice but talk to the leader of that Muslim delegation.

These Muslims were practicing an Islamic principle that individual character is the base of preference not color of skin.

The Conquests of Jerusalem - a Study in Contrasts

Jerusalem and its surrounding territory were and remain holy to Muslims, Christians and Jews. It was during the Caliphate of Omar ibn al-Khattab (634-635) that Muslims first gained leadership of this territory. May Allah be pleased with him.

The Muslim reaction to this victory is something to remember.

Omar entered Jerusalem in humility. He walked in with not he, the Caliph, but his servent comfortably riding on a camel. They had been taking turns walking and riding.

At one point, the Christians asked him to pray in their church but he declined. He refused saying that he is afraid that in the future Muslims could use it as an excuse to take over the Church for building a Masjid.

The Christians gave the key of the Church of Resurrection to Muslims to be responsible for its safety. This key is still with the Muslims today.

In contrast, during the Crusades (1095 until 1291) European Christians attacked and occupied this holy land. They oppressed the Muslims, the local Christians and the Jews. These Crusaders killed over 200,000 innocent civilians.

It was in response to this horrific oppression and the need to free the area of Crusader control that Sultan Salah el Deen Ayyubi (Saladin) liberated Jerusalem from them in 1187.

His arrival brought relief for the local Christian population, who helped him, after the oppression they suffered at the hands of their co-religionists, the Crusaders.

Not only did Salah el Deen treat the Crusaders with kindness, and ensured that Muslim and non-Muslims live in peace and harmony with each other.

One particular story about him recounts that some Muslim soldiers were besieging a Christian fortress. Many Christians were seeking shelter inside, including a young couple who was planning to get married, but whose plans had been stopped by the fighting. They decided to get married anyway, even though they were trapped inside the castle.

Salah el Deen was in charge of the Muslim troops at this time. When he heard about the wedding, he ordered his soldiers not to attack the castle where the couple was staying, so that they could enjoy peace and quiet. In return for this respect, the bride's mother sent out trays of food, so Salah el Deen and the Muslim army could share in the wedding celebrations.

Indeed the best period of peace and justice for all in Jerusalem has been the period when Muslim were in control.

Muslim Spain versus Christian Spain: Civilization versus Inquisition

Many Muslims look back at Muslim Spain with pride. But few people know that Jews also call it their "golden era".

Spain became part of the Islamic world at the beginning of the eighth century. Under Muslims Spain became the center of civilization. Although many local Spaniards embraced Islam, Christians and Jews were free in all aspects of their lives. The Muslims respected their religion and institutions. The result was the birth of the first true cosmopolitan culture in the West.

Christians studied alongside Muslim scholars to such a degree that in 854, a Christian named Alvaro of Cordoba complained that these students were forgetting their own religion and culture.

Muslims and Christians of Spain did not live in their ghettos, isolated and not cooperating in various aspects of daily life together.

One manifestation of this cooperation can be found inside the Great Mosque at Cordoba.

Skilled Christian craftsmen, who were trained in Constantinople (which is the city of Istanbul in Turkey today), made beautiful mosaic panels for the walls of the mosque. The Christians worked along with the Muslims to decorate the interior of the mosque with colors and design.

Cordoba was not just the pride of the Muslim world though. The city under Muslim rule was famous throughout Europe.

One Christian nun named Hrosvitha who lived in the 10th century described Cordoba from her home in Germany as the ‘jewel of the world-a city well-cultured, rich... abounding in knowledge.'

It's not surprising that Hrosvitha described the city in this way. Muslim Spain was the center of science and arts. Muslims and Jewish authors wrote many important treatises about science in Arabic. Many ancient Greek texts also survived because Muslims translated them into Arabic.

For example, Aristotle's works on physics and natural history were translated into Arabic from Greek in Muslim Spain. Historians generally acknowledge that the Muslim world proved to be a major conduit of ancient scholarship into the West, especially through Muslim Spain.

It wasn't just Muslims and Christians who thrived in Spain, though. Jews, who were reviled and hated elsewhere, were not only living safely and peacefully alongside non-Jews in Muslim Spain, they were learning and contributing to its culture and knowledge which Muslim scholars had established.

One instance of this is the famous Spanish Jewish scholar, Moses Maimonides (1135-1204) who wrote in Arabic as well as Hebrew.

But this success in wealth, knowledge and co-existence came to end in a violent and very sad way.

As Christian Crusaders of Spain expelled Muslims, civilization that took centuries to build was destroyed. Muslims and Jews were either expelled or forced to convert to Christianity. Millions died as tolerance was replaced by the Inquisition. A suspected Muslim was to be killed for the smallest act resembling Islamic tradition - such as taking a bath on Friday.

Muslims in Bosnia: The Multi ethnic ideals versus racio-nationalism of Serbs (1992-95)

Bosnia is another bright example of Islamic, non-racial egalitarianism and tolerance in Europe. Bosnia today stands as an example of the principle of a multi ethnic society which refused to submit to the racial ideals and attacks of Serb nationalism.

Islam came to Bosnia in 1463 under Ottoman Turks. During Ottoman rule, many Bosnians embraced Islam. Bosnia remained under Ottoman rule until 1878, when it was given to Austria-Hungary as a colony.

While those living in Bosnia enjoyed the benefits of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, South Slavs in Serbia and elsewhere were calling for a South Slav state. World War I began when Serb nationalist Gavrilo Princip assassinated the Archduke Ferdinand in Sarajevo. After the war, Bosnia became part of the South Slav state of Yugoslavia.

It was given to Croatia in World War II and during the Cold War the Communist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was established under Josef Tito. Bosnia was reestablished as a republic with its medieval borders.

Yugoslavia's unraveling was hastened by the rise of Slobodan Milosevic to power in 1986. Milosevic's embrace of the Serb nationalist agenda led to intrastate ethnic strife. Slovenia and Croatia both declared independence in 1991, and Bosnia-Herzegovina soon followed.

In February 1992, the Bosnian Government held a referendum on independence for all people living in Bosnia. Bosnian Serbs, supported by neighboring Serbia, responded with armed resistance aiming to partition the republic along ethnic lines in an attempt to create a "greater Serbia."

In April 1992, Bosnia and Herzegovina was the most ethnically diverse of the Yugoslav republics, According to a Yugoslavian census in 1991, Bosnia was 43.7% Muslim, 31.4% Serbian, and 17.3% Croatian.

The Bosnians resisted the genocidal Serb attacks despite the arms embargo, through most of 1995, ending with the Dayton Accord, signed on November 21, 1995 which retains the multiethnic ideals which Bosnians cherished. However, because of the way Dayton accord is designed, this freedom is more a nightmare than a dream come true.

This was the worst case of genocide in Europe since World War II. 250,000 people were killed and 2 million people became homeless resisting the Serb's nationalism and racism to cherish the ideals that all human being can live together. This was a principled defense lead by Dr. Alija Ali Izetbegovich.

Conclusion

These are just a few examples from Muslim history, which are closer to the Islamic ideals of all humanity being one. This is by no means a claim that all Muslims have always behaved in the most ideal way. Muslims like other human beings are fully capable of falling short in their practice of these ideals. One can come up with a whole set of examples in which tribalism and nationalism have resulted in an unIslamic behavior among Muslims. Muslims as a whole have never condoned or embraced the personal behavior or ideologies which are based on color or race. Islamic ideals continue to challenge racial and national ideologies by inspiring Muslims to emulate the model of the Prophet, may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him.

Harold- We have been making an effort to encourage understanding amongst ourselves-

If you have something positive to share- we welcome it. But dredging up millenia old hatreds and tribal feuds followed by long cut and pastes which have no cohesive point is just an extreme self indulgence on your part.

It was a nice start folks- see you all in the funny papers

Farnaz: Did you read this:

Mohammad's Sword

Uri Avneryby Uri Avnery
September 27, 2006

Since the days when Roman Emperors threw Christians to the lions, the relations between the emperors and the heads of the church have undergone many changes.
Constantine the Great, who became Emperor in the year 306--exactly 1700 years ago--encouraged the practice of Christianity in the empire, which included Palestine . Centuries later, the church split into an Eastern (Orthodox) and a Western (Catholic) part. In the West, the Bishop of Rome, who acquired the title of Pope, demanded that the Emperor accept his superiority.

The struggle between the Emperors and the Popes played a central role in European history and divided the peoples. It knew ups and downs. Some Emperors dismissed or expelled a Pope, some Popes dismissed or excommunicated an Emperor. One of the Emperors, Henry IV, "walked to Canossa ," standing for three days barefoot in the snow in front of the Pope's castle, until the Pope deigned to annul his excommunication.

But there were times when Emperors and Popes lived in peace with each other. We are witnessing such a period today. Between the present Pope, Benedict XVI, and the present Emperor, George Bush II, there exists a wonderful harmony. Last week's speech by the Pope, which aroused a world-wide storm, went well with Bush's crusade against "Islamofascism," in the context of the "Clash of Civilizations."
IN HIS lecture at a German university, the 265th Pope described what he sees as a huge difference between Christianity and Islam: while Christianity is based on reason, Islam denies it. While Christians see the logic of God's actions, Muslims deny that there is any such logic in the actions of Allah.

As a Jewish atheist, I do not intend to enter the fray of this debate. It is much beyond my humble abilities to understand the logic of the Pope. But I cannot overlook one passage, which concerns me too, as an Israeli living near the fault-line of this "war of civilizations."

In order to prove the lack of reason in Islam, the Pope asserts that the prophet Muhammad ordered his followers to spread their religion by the sword. According to the Pope, that is unreasonable, because faith is born of the soul, not of the body. How can the sword influence the soul?

To support his case, the Pope quoted--of all people--a Byzantine Emperor, who belonged, of course, to the competing Eastern Church. At the end of the 14th Century, the Emperor Manuel II Palaeologus told of a debate he had--or so he said (its occurrence is in doubt)--with an unnamed Persian Muslim scholar. In the heat of the argument, the Emperor (according to himself) flung the following words at his adversary:
"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

These words give rise to three questions: (a) Why did the Emperor say them? (b) Are they true? (c) Why did the present Pope quote them?

WHEN MANUEL II wrote his treatise, he was the head of a dying empire. He assumed power in 1391, when only a few provinces of the once illustrious empire remained. These, too, were already under Turkish threat.

At that point in time, the Ottoman Turks had reached the banks of the Danube . They had conquered Bulgaria and the north of Greece , and had twice defeated relieving armies sent by Europe to save the Eastern Empire . On May 29, 1453 , only a few years after Manuel's death, his capital, Constantinople (the present Istanbul ) fell to the Turks, putting an end to the Empire that had lasted for more than a thousand years.

During his reign, Manuel made the rounds of the capitals of Europe in an attempt to drum up support. He promised to reunite the church. There is no doubt that he wrote his religious treatise in order to incite the Christian countries against the Turks and convince them to start a new crusade. The aim was practical, theology was serving politics.

In this sense, the quote serves exactly the requirements of the present Emperor, George Bush II. He, too, wants to unite the Christian world against the mainly Muslim "Axis of Evil." Moreover, the Turks are again knocking on the doors of Europe , this time peacefully. It is well known that the Pope supports the forces that object to the entry of Turkey into the European Union.

IS THERE any truth in Manuel's argument?

The pope himself threw in a word of caution. As a serious and renowned theologian, he could not afford to falsify written texts. Therefore, he admitted that the Qur'an specifically forbade the spreading of the faith by force. He quoted the second Sura, verse 256 (strangely fallible, for a pope, he meant verse 257) which says: "There must be no coercion in matters of faith."

How can one ignore such an unequivocal statement? The Pope simply argues that this commandment was laid down by the prophet when he was at the beginning of his career, still weak and powerless, but that later on he ordered the use of the sword in the service of the faith. Such an order does not exist in the Qur'an. True, Muhammad called for the use of the sword in his war against opposing tribes--Christian, Jewish and others--in Arabia , when he was building his state. But that was a political act, not a religious one; basically a fight for territory, not for the spreading of the faith.

Jesus said: "You will recognize them by their fruits." The treatment of other religions by Islam must be judged by a simple test: How did the Muslim rulers behave for more than a thousand years, when they had the power to "spread the faith by the sword"?
Well, they just did not.

For many centuries, the Muslims ruled Greece . Did the Greeks become Muslims? Did anyone even try to Islamize them? On the contrary, Christian Greeks held the highest positions in the Ottoman administration. The Bulgarians, Serbs, Romanians, Hungarians and other European nations lived at one time or another under Ottoman rule and clung to their Christian faith. Nobody compelled them to become Muslims and all of them remained devoutly Christian.

True, the Albanians did convert to Islam, and so did the Bosniaks. But nobody argues that they did this under duress. They adopted Islam in order to become favorites of the government and enjoy the fruits.

In 1099, the Crusaders conquered Jerusalem and massacred its Muslim and Jewish inhabitants indiscriminately, in the name of the gentle Jesus. At that time, 400 years into the occupation of Palestine by the Muslims, Christians were still the majority in the country. Throughout this long period, no effort was made to impose Islam on them. Only after the expulsion of the Crusaders from the country, did the majority of the inhabitants start to adopt the Arabic language and the Muslim faith--and they were the forefathers of most of today's Palestinians.

THERE IS no evidence whatsoever of any attempt to impose Islam on the Jews. As is well known, under Muslim rule the Jews of Spain enjoyed a bloom the like of which the Jews did not enjoy anywhere else until almost our time. Poets like Yehuda Halevy wrote in Arabic, as did the great Maimonides. In Muslim Spain, Jews were ministers, poets, scientists. In Muslim Toledo, Christian, Jewish and Muslim scholars worked together and translated the ancient Greek philosophical and scientific texts. That was, indeed, the Golden Age. How would this have been possible, had the Prophet decreed the "spreading of the faith by the sword"?

What happened afterwards is even more telling. When the Catholics re-conquered Spain from the Muslims, they instituted a reign of religious terror. The Jews and the Muslims were presented with a cruel choice: to become Christians, to be massacred or to leave. And where did the hundreds of thousand of Jews, who refused to abandon their faith, escape? Almost all of them were received with open arms in the Muslim countries. The Sephardi ("Spanish") Jews settled all over the Muslim world, from Morocco in the west to Iraq in the east, from Bulgaria (then part of the Ottoman Empire ) in the north to Sudan in the south. Nowhere were they persecuted. They knew nothing like the tortures of the Inquisition, the flames of the auto-da-fe, the pogroms, the terrible mass-expulsions that took place in almost all Christian countries, up to the Holocaust.

WHY? Because Islam expressly prohibited any persecution of the "peoples of the book." In Islamic society, a special place was reserved for Jews and Christians. They did not enjoy completely equal rights, but almost. They had to pay a special poll-tax, but were exempted from military service--a trade-off that was quite welcome to many Jews. It has been said that Muslim rulers frowned upon any attempt to convert Jews to Islam even by gentle persuasion--because it entailed the loss of taxes.
Every honest Jew who knows the history of his people cannot but feel a deep sense of gratitude to Islam, which has protected the Jews for 50 generations, while the Christian world persecuted the Jews and tried many times "by the sword" to get them to abandon their faith.

THE STORY about "spreading the faith by the sword" is an evil legend, one of the myths that grew up in Europe during the great wars against the Muslims--the reconquista of Spain by the Christians, the Crusades and the repulsion of the Turks, who almost conquered Vienna . I suspect that the German Pope, too, honestly believes in these fables. That means that the leader of the Catholic world, who is a Christian theologian in his own right, did not make the effort to study the history of other religions.

Why did he utter these words in public? And why now?

There is no escape from viewing them against the background of the new Crusade of Bush and his evangelist supporters, with his slogans of "Islamofascism" and the "Global War on Terrorism"--when "terrorism" has become a synonym for Muslims. For Bush's handlers, this is a cynical attempt to justify the domination of the world's oil resources. Not for the first time in history, a religious robe is spread to cover the nakedness of economic interests; not for the first time, a robbers' expedition becomes a Crusade.

The speech of the Pope blends into this effort. Who can foretell the dire consequences?

Uri Avnery is a peace activist.
URL: http://www.strike-the-root.com/62/avnery/avnery9.html

Anon, Anon, Anon,

No steak today but hey the objective is to have everyone eat steaks!!!

And you are walking wherever? And you heat with cow dung?

Hmmm, we all owe Uncle Sam (or is that us?), $32000/each due to entitlements mostly i.e. Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid.

Hmmm, if the Saudis took in all the Sunni refugees and the Iranians took in all the Shiite refugees, that would solve the temporary dislocation problem. They are responsible for the dislocation to begin with.

And I do believe Iraq is now rolling in oil money. Let the rebuilding begin!!!! Mission accomplished save for the 800 year blood feud between those "peaceful" Shiites and Sunnis.

Anon, in your list to CCNL, you left out the exile of three million Jews from their historic homelands in the Middle East, the number killed, permanently maimed, we don't know; the destruction of religious sites dating back to the Biblical era, etc.

I was lucky. I got out alive. Others did not.

You also omitted the slaughter, disfigurement, loss of limbs, sight, brain damage of countless Israelis, Jewish, Christian, Muslim, etc..

Oh, and Anon, what about the Palestinians, many exiled from Egypt and elsewhere in the Middle East, second class citizens in Egypt,etc.,even in Jordan, where they are the majority.

ER, and the Palestinian Christians? You remember those folks, don't you? The ones still fleeing into Israel?

"Conscience is saving the muslim women from Enslavement,Subjugation,Oppression and Religious Police."

*******************************************************

True, their culture and values are different than ours. Their norms of modesty are different.

But are we better than them? Are women in the West really free? I should know.

Did you know that Sarkozy the President of France has married another model for the third time?

He married two other models before and divorced them.

When women in the West are young and beautiful they are in demand. Once they are above 30, they get wrinkles. That does it. Men divorce them for still younger women.

Married women constantly live in fear that their men will leave them for they will not look young any more.

This is why we have multi-billion dollar cosmetic industry.

Do you know what the rate of divorce is in European countries and America?

Do you ever watch Lifetime channel movies based on true stories and the horror that is inflicted upon women in real life? These divorced women in desperation and search of men go to singles bars,get picked up by crook men who sometimes even kill them.

So before you criticize them, look inward.

Is there any attempt to reforming this state of affairs? Are our women really "free".They might be free to wear whatever they like but are they free to live happy married lives and raise healthy kids?

Don't men have mothers, sisters, daughters? Do they ever think that other men will do the same to their mothers, sisters, and daughters as they treat their wives. I say this because that is our way of life (culture).

OBSERVER wrote:

"They only complain about the few decades of European colonization, despite the many gained benefits."

***************************************************************
Are you kidding us? You want to soften the blow by saying the European colonialism was only "for few decades and it was only for the good of the colonized people".

We have heard that before.

Anonymous tells Haloczel:
“The Europeans colonized the world and pretended to be do-gooders, posing as great democrats. They exploited the natural resources of the lands they colonized and did not hesitate to kill and maim people in the process.”

I am puzzled by the venom Muslims spew about the Europeans who colonized some of the Muslim countries. At least those colonizers had opened those failing, primitive and closed societies to the civilized world as well as built in them the infrastructure and institutions of a modern state.
The Turks colonized all the Arab countries for 400 years between 1518 and 1918 during which they kept them in total isolation and complete servitude when the rest of the world was advancing toward the Industrial Age. When that nightmare was finally over, thanks to the Allied European forces, the Arabs realized then how much they were behind the rest of the world. The Turks took away and never put in. They taxed their colonies back into the Stone Age. You never hear any Arab Muslim complain. Why? Because the Turks ”are believers in Allah and His prophet”. They only complain about the few decades of European colonization, despite the many gained benefits.

Mo said:
“is jesus divine and worthy of worship because he came from a human mother but no biological father?
the sun and the moon are much greater much huger in miracle why not the sun worthy of worship ????????why not the sperm which it contain millions of cells worthy of worship”

This kind of logic should be expected from someone who believes in talking ants, flying horses and pedophile warlord is a prophet with impeccable character and, off course, the most favored by Allah..

halozcel:
That Indonesia was a land of cannibals is false. And that the Dutch went there to civilize them is also false.

The Europeans colonized the world and pretended to be do-gooders, posing as great democrats. They exploited the natural resources of the lands they colonized and did not hesitate to kill and maim people in the process.

Before the Dutch, Indonesia was thriving with trade of spices and other goods. Indonesia is the largest Muslim country in the world today with about 250 million people. It became Muslim peacefully. No Muslim army ever marched to the Far East.

It was the Arab traders whose way of life was noticed by the locals. They accepted Islam by coming in contact with Arab traders.

One can read Indonesia's history on the Internet.

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated:

And how many more new problems have been created?

1-The creation of 2 million refugees in Iraq.

2-The destruction of the country of Iraq. Make Gen Boykin stand up and tell American people that he will kill in the name of Jesus.

3-Will Iraq be rebuilt and contracts signed? Who will be doing the rebuilding?

4-The almost total annihilation of the Palestinian people and almost total destruction of Palestine.

5-The near chaos of Lebanon.

6-The $9 trillion debt for our country and a huge budget deficit, unparalelled in history. Money is no object. Keep borrowing and spending.

7- The increasing disparity between haves and have-nots, with 49 million Americans without health insurance.

8- The almost total destruction of the global environment. Keep drilling. Drill, Drill. Drill.

You got the point. Did you eat your Fillet Minion today?

Anonymous,Aug.1,2008 11.58 PM,

You say *the colonization of Indonesia*

Indonesia was the *Land of Cannibals* 300/400 years ago.Dutchman came and tried to teach *Civilization* to cannibal indonesians.Otherwise,Indonesians would have been living still in the Stone Age.
Ungratefulness.

If you fail to create a *contemporary way of life*,you are condemned to be driven by someones.

Conscience is saving the muslim women from Enslavement,Subjugation,Oppression and Religious Police.
Shame is being *half creature*
Shame is *two women equals one man*
Shame is *Dogs,Donkeys and Women...*

the birth of jesus and the stick of moses.

jesus came from a human mother,no biological father ,jesus spoke while in the cradel,jesus healed the diseased,jesus caused the dead to be live.

moses struck the sea with his stick,the sea splat into half ,moses and the sons of isreal crossed the sea safely,while the pharo and his army drowned .

ADAM the father of mankind came with no biological father nor biological mother .

you and me came from a sperm and an egg .

1-ameen to all the above miracles.
2-what is common in the above miracles?
3-what makes the miracle of the birth of jesus holyier or diviner than other miracles ??????? is the snow white holy or divine because its nice and pure?is the air that human breath holy or divine because it saves people life?is jesus divine and worthy of worship because he came from a human mother but no biological father?

the sun and the moon are much greater much huger in miracle why not the sun worthy of worship ????????why not the sperm which it contain millions of cells worthy of worship .

i,d rather listen to the talking ants!!!!!!!!

by all means, the creator who created the sun and the moon can make the ant talks,the logic is in the creation ,the proof is in the creation for those who they do not want to read the scripture.

for ibrahim hanifan eyes only,

Hmmm, I see you are copying and pasting elements from the koran which were stolen/copied from the OT, NT and other ancient documents. Where are the warmongering and anti-female passages received by Mahound from the "pretty Gabe"?

Now for the reality of it all:

A synopsis of the flaws and errors of Judaism, Christianity and Islam:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a mythical character as was mythical Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

Many of the 1.5 million Conservative Jews and many of their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.

Current crisis:

Realization that the Jews are not god's not chosen people.
simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. www. earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

Current crises:

Pedophiliac priests, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

3. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

Current crises:

Adulterous preachers, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology.

4. Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/ plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/ mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

Current crises:

The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder.

QURAN,s2v135,
and they say,be jews or christians then you will be guided .say to them oh muhammed,nay ,we follow only the religion of abraham,hanifan and he was not of al-mushrikun(those who worshiped others along with ALLAH).

say we believe in ALLAH and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to abraham ,ishmael,issac,jacob,and to al-asbat(the 12 sons of jacob)and that which has been given to moses and jesus and that which has been given to the prophets from their lord.we make no distinction between any of them ,and to him we have submitted .

1-how old is the dispute between the (muslims,jews and christians),what is the name of the dispute ?,how,when ,how come,how end?what is the subject?is it the divinity of the book ?or the divinity of the messenger ?or the divinity of the creator AL,ILLAH himself?what was the creed of ABRAHAM? is the divine messeage to ABRAHAM different from the divine messeage to moses ,different from the divine messeage to jesus ?what is the difference?who make the dispute?who make the intoleranceism and prejudiceism?what is the axis of differntialism and disputeism among mankind ?how old is the statment which says,my god is real and his god is false?how many real god in the world???.what is the name of the distinction?why the distinction is a must in the religion of abraham?is abraham equal to abou-jahil?is jesus equal to the one or the ones who they tryied to crucify jesus on the cross ?

s139,
say (oh muhammed to the jews and christians)dispute you with us about ALLAH while he is our lord and your lord?

2-people of the book traveled from jeursalem to the arabian peninsula ,because the book in their hands(tora and injeel)says and confirm the comeing and the rise of the last and final prophet to mankind,when they got their and matched the signs and attributes and timeing and the place of the prophet to the book ,they found the matching is perfectly accurate ,yet when they found out that he is arabian not from the descandant of jacob ,they disbelived in him ???????????????
peace be uppon jacob and muhammed!both are on on religion ,one god ,one messeage.

The Rabbi said:
“The Lord [God] said to my master [King David] "Sit thou at my right hand . . . ."

Samuel, David, Solomon, Jonathon, Rehoboam

And the servant answered Saul again, and said, Behold, I have here at hand the fourth part of a shekel of silver: that will I give to the man of God, to tell us our way.
Beforetime in Israel, when a man went to inquire of God, thus he spake, Come, and let us go to the seer: for he that is now called a Prophet was beforetime called a Seer.
Then said Saul to his servant, Well said; come, let us go. So they went unto the city where the man of God was.
And I will raise me up a faithful priest, that shall do according to that which is in mine heart and in my mind: and I will build him a sure house; and he shall walk before mine anointed for ever.
Then Saul drew near to Samuel in the gate, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, where the seer's house is.
And Samuel answered Saul, and said, I am the seer: go up before me unto the high place; for ye shall eat with me to day, and to morrow I will let thee go, and will tell thee all that is in thine heart.

“for he that is now called a Prophet was beforetime called a Seer”
“that shall do according to that which is in mine heart and in my mind”
“he shall walk before mine anointed for ever”
“will tell thee all that is in thine heart”

Behold, the eye of the Lord is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy;
For he hath delivered me out of all trouble: and mine eye hath seen his desire upon mine enemies
I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

“neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption”
“I will guide thee with mine eye”
“the eye of the Lord is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy”

Hear the right, O Lord, attend unto my cry, give ear unto my prayer, that goeth not out of feigned lips.
Let my sentence come forth from thy presence; let thine eyes behold the things that are equal.
The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry.

“let thine eyes behold the things that are equal”
“The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous”

And the men of Israel were distressed that day: for Saul had adjured the people, saying, Cursed be the man that eateth any food until evening, that I may be avenged on mine enemies. So none of the people tasted any food.
And all they of the land came to a wood; and there was honey upon the ground.
And when the people were come into the wood, behold, the honey dropped; but no man put his hand to his mouth: for the people feared the oath.
But Jonathan heard not when his father charged the people with the oath: wherefore he put forth the end of the rod that was in his hand, and dipped it in an honeycomb, and put his hand to his mouth; and his eyes were enlightened.
Then answered one of the people, and said, Thy father straitly charged the people with an oath, saying, Cursed be the man that eateth any food this day. And the people were faint.
Then said Jonathan, My father hath troubled the land: see, I pray you, how mine eyes have been enlightened, because I tasted a little of this honey.
The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.
The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.

“honey upon the ground”
“and his eyes were enlightened”
“the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes”

Arise, O Lord, in thine anger, lift up thyself because of the rage of mine enemies: and awake for me to the judgment that thou hast commanded.
For he hath delivered me out of all trouble: and mine eye hath seen his desire upon mine enemies.
And the young men that were grown up with him spake unto him, saying, Thus shalt thou speak unto this people that spake unto thee, saying, Thy father made our yoke heavy, but make thou it lighter unto us; thus shalt thou say unto them, My little finger shall be thicker than my father's loins.
And now whereas my father did lade you with a heavy yoke, I will add to your yoke: my father hath chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions.
Bless, Lord, his substance, and accept the work of his hands; smite through the loins of them that rise against him, and of them that hate him, that they rise not again.

“awake for me to the judgment that thou hast commanded”
“mine eye hath seen his desire upon mine enemies”
“My little finger will chastise you with scorpions”
“smite through the loins of them that rise against him, and of them that hate him, that they rise not again”

It was the same in the former communist block.
The difference is that the West supports (some) Muslim societies economically by purchasing their oil.
Without that support they would have attempted reform, by necessity, just like the former communist block did eventually.

So the West is artificially demonised and blackened as a counterbalance to its well known good sides, to avoid an unfavorable comparison with Muslim societies.

The only 'real' tensions that exist are those in contemporary Muslim societies. The West is more of a convenient venting point towards which the anger is redirected.
It's like saying "We are poor, ignorant, badly governed, sexually repressed and envious of the West that we can't allow ourselves to be. So we blame the West for what we do to ourselves because we hate the west for proving by its very existence that we don't really have to do it to ourselves".

Observer:

Kindly clarify:

Observer: he is too much of a sinner to sit next to God

Farnaz: How do you know? Are you sitting next to God? Has He told you this?

Farnaz: How do you know he was the forefather of Joseph, "stepfather of Jesus"? Can you give us Jesus' genealogy?
Moi:: Refer to the Gospels

Farnaz: I am familiar with the Gospels. I see no genealogy. As you know, genealogies go back generations. (See the Bible, for examples.) Please give me chapter and verse.

Observer: I am referring to the Israelites. They claim to be “God’s chosen people”. As such they looked down on he societies where they lived and showed no allegiance except to their coreligionists. That explains at least partly where they were persecuted in Europe and some of the Muslim countries.

Farnaz: The "Israelites" Who are they? Where do THEY say they are "God's chosen people? Please give me references.

Observer: As such they looked down on he societies where they lived and showed no allegiance except to their coreligionists.

Farnaz: This is very vague. First, you haven't said who the Israelites were. Once you've done this, please specify the societies in which they lived, and the ways in which they looked down on others and failed to show allegiance.

Observer: That explains at least partly where they were persecuted in Europe and some of the Muslim countries.

Farnaz: Where in Europe? When in Europe? Which Muslim countries? You say this explains "at least partly why." What are the other parts?

Observer: I mean God’s chosen people. That is what they claim. Accordingly they act as if the World owes them a living

Farnaz: I don't understand. Do you mean they don't earn a living? Do other people support them? What and whom are you talking about?

Nicely articulated Mr. Volf. I admire the work that Muslim and Christian scholars are now doing. It is very encouraging. Thank you. And thanks to the Muslim community for "A Common Word."

Anon, Anon, Anon,

Hmmm, you noted much of the world is and has been in a state of terror and aggression. A partial update:

(or how we are spending or how we have spent USA taxpayers’ money to eliminate said global terror and aggression)

The terror and aggression via a Partial and Recent Body Count

1) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto

2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, 4100 US troops and 86,136 – 93,995 Iraqi civilians http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

8) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

Other elements of our War on Terror:

1. Saddam, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted. Saddam's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes.

2. Iran is being been contained. (beside containing the Sunni-Shiite civil war in Baghdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region.)

3. Libya has become almost civil. Apparently this new reality from an Islamic country has upset OBL and his “crazies” as they recently threatened Libya. OBL sure is a disgrace to the world especially the Moslem world!!!

3. North Korea is still uncivil but is contained. With the opening up of rail traffic between North and South Korea after 50 years and with the assistance of the US Navy in retrieving NK ships and personnel, a fresh sense of civility is afoot.

4. NK has finally started to destroy in nuclear weapons’ capabilities.

5. Northern Ireland is finally at peace.

6. The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls. Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords and the Annapolis Peace Conference is at least somewhat successful.

7. Bin Laden has been cornered under a rock in Western Pakistan since 9/11.

8. Fanatical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace. Ditto for a wall between Afghahistan and Pakistan.

9.Timothy McVeigh was executed. Terry Nichols will follow soon.

10. Eric Rudolph is spending three life terms in prison with no parole.

11. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Kaczynski, the "nuns" from Rwanda, and the KKK were all dealt with and either eliminated themselves or are being punished.

12. Islamic Sudan, Darfur and Somalia are still terror hot spots.

13. The terror and torture of Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo and Kuwait were ended by the proper application of the military forces of the USA and her freedom-loving friends. Radovan Karadzic was finally captured on 7/23/08 and is charged with genocide, crimes against humanity and violations of the law of war -- charges related to the 1992-1995 civil war that followed Bosnia-Herzegovina's secession from Yugoslavia.

14. And of course the bloody terror brought about the Japanese, Nazis and Communists was with great difficulty eliminated by the good guys.

Added note: Those in the USA and Canada interested in returning their homes and lands to the rightful owners i.e. the American Indians can call their congresspersons or parliament representatives at 1-800-555-5555.

Farnaz asks me :
Observer, I'm not following you here. Perhaps, you can clarify. I give my questions below.

Observer: David was a man with all the fallibilities of any human.
Farnaz: This is the case with all the Tanakh prophets, including Moses. The Tanakh has no incarnated gods. What's the point?
Moi: he is too much of a sinner to sit next to God.

Observer: "The only thing special about him besides being warlord of the Israelite tribes is that he is the forefather of Joseph the stepfather of Jesus."
Moi: Jesus geneology is in the Gospel according to Luke.
Farnaz: Huh? ARe we talking about the same David? That is, the David of the psalms? I refer to the David of the Tanakh, or the "OT"?
Moi: I am referring to David of the psalms.
Farnaz: How do you know he was the forefather of Joseph, "stepfather of Jesus"? Can you give us Jesus' genealogy?
Moi:: Refer to the Gospels.
Observer: It is this cockiness of those who attributed themselves the title of “Jehovah’s favorite people” that got them in trouble with both the Christians and Muslims throughout history.
Farnaz: To whom are you referring? Who are "those who attributed themselves the title of 'Jehovah's favorite people'"? How and why did this get "them into troubhle with both the Christians and Muslims throughout history"?
Moi: I am referring to the Israelites. They claim to be “God’s chosen people”. As such they looked down on he societies where they lived and showed no allegiance except to their coreligionists. That explains at least partly where they were persecuted in Europe and some of the Muslim countries.
Observer: "Some actually believe they are God’s favorite people and consider themselves God’s gift to humanity."
Farnaz: Some of whom or what? What do you mean by "God's favorite people"? "Favorite" in what sense"? Ditto "God's gift to humanity." What do you mean? "Gift" in what sense?
Moi: I mean God’s chosen people. That is what they claim. Accordingly they act as if the World owes them a living

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated:

Did you mean the war in Iraq, the war in Afghanistan, Rwanda, Cambodia, Bosnia, Viet Nam, the Korean War, the two world wars of the previous centuries, the war against the Australian Aborigenes, the war against Native Americans, the wars against the Maya, the Inca and the Aztecs?

And the colonization of the Middle East, India, Indonesia?

Some people have no conscience and shame!

Observe writes:

The Rabbi said:
“The Lord [God] said to my master [King David] "Sit thou at my right hand . . . ."
In other words it makes more sense to this Rabbi that David sit to the right hand of God rather than Jesus. David was a man with all the fallibilities of any human. The only thing special about him besides being warlord of the Israelite tribes is that he is the forefather of Joseph the stepfather of Jesus.
It is this cockiness of those who attributed themselves the title of “Jehovah’s favorite people” that got them in trouble with both the Christians and Muslims throughout history. Some actually believe they are God’s favorite people and consider themselves God’s gift to humanity.
---------------------
Observer, I'm not following you here. Perhaps, you can clarify. I give my questions below.

Observer: David was a man with all the fallibilities of any human.

Farnaz: This is the case with all the Tanakh prophets, including Moses. The Tanakh has no incarnated gods. What's the point?

Observer: "The only thing special about him besides being warlord of the Israelite tribes is that he is the forefather of Joseph the stepfather of Jesus."

Farnaz: Huh? ARe we talking about the same David? That is, the David of the psalms? I refer to the David of the Tanakh, or the "OT"?

Also, how do you know he was the forefather of Joseph, "stepfather of Jesus"? Can you give us Jesus' genealogy?

Observer: It is this cockiness of those who attributed themselves the title of “Jehovah’s favorite people” that got them in trouble with both the Christians and Muslims throughout history.

Farnaz: To whom are you referring? Who are "those who attributed themselves the title of 'Jehovah's favorite people'"? How and why did this get "them into troubhle with both the Christians and Muslims throughout history"?

Observer: "Some actually believe they are God’s favorite people and consider themselves God’s gift to humanity."

Farnaz: Some of whom or what? What do you mean by "God's favorite people"? "Favorite" in what sense"? Ditto "God's gift to humanity." What do you mean? "Gift" in what sense?

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

Muslims like yourself who feel no guilt for the violence they represent should feel significant shame. Islam as noted by the 24/7 violence it causes in this world needs to be eradicated. There is nothing to be happy about when it comes to your religion. Wake up, you are in a dream world of "pretty wingie thingies" and flying prophets and false promises.

Noble intentions are a thing of beauty to observe- thanks Nadine for keeping the talk elevated-

Hi Lib! Speaking in the royal we now, are we?
you are still a hooty hoot.

check out this video- it will put a smile on even your curmudegeonly face :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNF_P281Uu4&feature=user

it's just happy-

The Rabbi said:
“The Lord [God] said to my master [King David] "Sit thou at my right hand . . . ."
In other words it makes more sense to this Rabbi that David sit to the right hand of God rather than Jesus. David was a man with all the fallibilities of any human. The only thing special about him besides being warlord of the Israelite tribes is that he is the forefather of Joseph the stepfather of Jesus.
It is this cockiness of those who attributed themselves the title of “Jehovah’s favorite people” that got them in trouble with both the Christians and Muslims throughout history. Some actually believe they are God’s favorite people and consider themselves God’s gift to humanity.
Such a purely theological topic could not be fairly discussed on a forum as this. The Rabbi need to discuss it with some Christian textual scholar and there are plenty of those.

BeowulfthePolitician,

concerning "The Lord said to my Lord."

Psalm 110 represents one of the New Testament's most stunning, yet clever mistranslations of the Jewish scriptures. Moreover, the confusion created by the Christianization of this verse was further perpetuated and promulgated by numerous Christian translators of the Bible as well. As you will soon see, some Christian translators, to their credit, refrain from rewriting this text in Psalm 110.

The story of the church's tampering with Psalm 110 is so old that it begins in the Christian canon itself. In the Gospels we find the church's first use of Psalm 110, and it begins with a question. In Matthew 22:41-44 Matthew's Jesus turns to the Pharisees and asks them,

What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?

The question in laymen's terms is, "Of whom is the messiah supposed to be a descendant?"

They said to him, "The son of David." He said to them, "How then does David in the spirit call him 'Lord,' saying, 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool"?' If David then called him Lord, how is he his son?" No one was able to answer him a word, neither did any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

Although the above conversation could never have occurred, I am certain this narrative has been replayed over and over again in the imagination of countless Christians for nearly 1,900 years.

It's an inspiring story to the Christian believer. Jesus really showed those Pharisees how little they knew! Yet, this is precisely why this story could never have transpired. No Jew who had even a superficial knowledge of the Jewish scriptures would have ever found Jesus' argument compelling, let alone a conversation stopper. The depth of knowledge that the Pharisees possessed of Tanach was astounding.

Let's take a closer look at the original verse from which Matthew's Jesus quoted so that you have a sense of how the original Hebrew text was masked. The New American Standard Bible (NASB), one of the most widely read Christian Bibles in use today, translates Psalm 110:1 in the following manner,

The Lord said unto my Lord, "Sit thou on my right hand, till I put thine enemies underneath thy feet."

It appears from the NASB translation that the "Lord," which is God, "said unto to my Lord" -- who missionaries would have you believe is Jesus (David's "Lord") -- "Sit thou on my right hand, till I put thine enemies underneath thy feet."

Is the above verse speaking about Jesus? Not at all, yet look at the first word "Lord" in the verse. Now look at the second word "Lord" (they are only three words apart). Did you notice any difference between them? You didn't because the Christian translator carefully masked what it actually says in the text of the original Hebrew.

Although the two English words in the NASB translation are carefully made to appear identical, in the original Hebrew text they are entirely different. Whereas the first word "Lord" in the Hebrew is a correct translation of -, which is the Tetragrammaton (YHWH), the ineffable name of God, the second word "Lord" is a complete and deliberate mistranslation of the text. The second word "Lord" in the verse is an appalling translation of the Hebrew word (pronounced ladonee). The correct translation of ladonee is "to my master" or "to my lord." The Hebrew word adonee never refers to God anywhere in the Bible. It is only used for the profane, never the sacred. That is to say, God, the Creator of the universe, is never called adonee in the Bible. There are many words reserved for God in the Bible; adonee, however, is not one of them.

To illustrate this, let's look for a completely different place in the Bible where the exact same Hebrew word appears and find out how the same New American Standard Bible translates it there.

For example, we find the same word, (ladonee), used in the following two verses which have been translated by the same New American Standard Bible where the identical word is used as in Psalm 110:

Then he and the men who were with him ate and drank and spent the night. When they arose in the morning, he said, "Send me away to my master
(ladonee: )." (Genesis 24:54, New American Standard Bible)

He also commanded them saying, "Thus you shall say to my lord (ladonee: ) Esau, 'Thus says your servant Jacob, "I have sojourned with Laban, and stayed until now." ' " (Genesis 32:4, New American Standard Bible)

The Hebrew word ladonee used in the above two verses is referring to Abraham and Esau, respectively. Notice that the Hebrew word used in both verses is identical to the Hebrew word in Psalm 110:1. Why did the New American Standard Bible translate ladonee correctly in Genesis 24:54 as "to my master," or in Genesis 32:4 as "to my lord," yet, for some reason, in Psalm 110:1 mistranslate it as "Lord"?

The answer is obvious. Both Genesis 24:54 and Genesis 32:4 are not texts used by the church to "prove" Jesus from the Jewish scriptures and therefore they had no reason to tamper with them. Psalm 110:1, on the other hand, is a verse that is flaunted by the New Testament and its missionaries as a verse that evangelicals insist "unquestionably points only to Jesus," and it therefore was deliberately mistranslated.

Some Christian translations are more transparent in their rendering of Psalm 110 than the New American Standard Bible. For example, the King James Version and a few other Bibles still render the second "Lord" as if it were sacred; however, they translate the first "LORD" in upper case. This is a helpful hint to the keen observer that there is a distinction between them. Of course, it's up to the curious Bible student to then look up the second "Lord" in a Hebrew Bible. Only such a deliberate and thorough investigation would uncover how the text was doctored.

It should be noted that while many Christian translators indulge in this manipulation of Psalm 110:1, some do not. Numerous modern Christian Bibles have corrected Matthew's mistranslation. For example, the Revised Standard Version and the New English Bible correctly render the Hebrew word ladonee as " to my lord," in Psalm 110:1, indicating that it is not speaking of God.

As mentioned above, this tampering with Psalm 110:1 began long ago in the Christian Bible itself. The Christian translators, who would later also mistranslate this verse, simply followed in the footsteps of the author of the first Gospel. If we look at the original Greek of Matthew 22:44 we find the same doctoring of the text in later Christian translations of the Book of Psalms. When Matthew has Jesus quote Psalm 110:1 to the Pharisees, the identical Greek word kurios (pronounced koo-re-os) is used both times the word "Lord" appears in Matthew 22:44.

Finally, it is essential that I explain the meaning of Psalm 110:1. Of whom is this Psalm really speaking? To whom are the words "my master" or "my lord" referring?

The Psalm begins with the opening Hebrew words "Mizmor l'David." The word "Mizmor" means "a song," and thus the opening phrase of this Psalm is, "A Song of David." In fact, the word Psalms comes from the Greek word psalmos, which means "a song." This is unknown to many Bible readers.

Why would King David be writing these songs? For whom was he writing them? By whom were they to be sung? With these questions in mind, we can begin to understand the intent of Psalm 110.

One of the great disappointments in King David's illustrious life occurred when God refused his request to build the first Temple in Jerusalem. Although David's son Solomon undertook that task and eventually constructed the first Temple, David's connection to it was significant.

For example, David founded the city of Jerusalem, the city where the Temple was built. In fact, both the city and the Temple were called after him, the City and Temple of David. Moreover, he made preparations for the building of the Temple, and even arranged for the Temple service (II Samuel 7; I Chronicles 14-17, 22-26). This is where the Book of Psalms played its central role. King David was a faithful servant of God who possessed extraordinary skills as a teacher, musician, and poet. In fact, King David authored most of the Book of Psalms. The original purpose for which King David composed the Book of Psalms was for the Levites to sing them in the Temple. The Levites would stand on a platform and joyfully chant these spiritually exhilarating Psalms to an inspired people. King David composed Psalm 110 for liturgical recitation by the Levites in the Temple years after his death. Therefore, the Levites would read this lyric,

The Lord [God] said to my master [King David] "Sit thou at my right hand . . . ."

For the church, however, the Psalmist's original intent was superseded by its interest in Christianizing this verse. Thus, the opening verse in Psalm 110 was altered in order to paint Jesus into the Jewish scriptures.

Here is some advice. The only way to recognize such rampant Christian tampering of the Bible is to be able to read it in the original, without the aid of the Christian translator. Therefore, give your children a good Jewish education. Remember, the success of the missionaries who target us represents the unpaid bills of the Jewish people.
By Rabbi Tovia Singer-OutrachJudaism

One of the bloggers claims that he is from Pakistan and is an ex-Muslims (an apostate) and says that when he goes back to his family, he is one of them (Muslim).

Here he expresses his hate for his former religion. How does he reconcile with his double (conflicting) life?

He suffers from such a deep rooted conflict. I hope he does not commit suicide in the future. Living with such a deep conflict is not healthy.

" AMH:

Bowulf
We on these threads know Victoria much longer than you do. She is not interested in searching for the Truth. So it is not surprising to us that she declined to dialog with you. She merely likes to parrot what the imam(s) of her mosque(s) wants her to preach. In other words do what we do;don't take her seriously."
***************************************************

There is not a thread of decency in you. You do nothing but impute motives and engage in suppositions, you can not prove.

I have been reading the blogs here with both sadness and amusement. Some people are nothing but evil. The author of this article was trying to promote inter-faith understanding between Christians and Muslims. Some maniacs have turned it around as a diatribe against Islam. They do not have a shred of reconcilation in them.

They have no moral value and are as rigid as a rock. Their objective is to take advantage of the post 9/11 environment against Muslims.

They lie and distort history. They are shameless creatures who might have sold their souls to the highest bidder.

The evil do not understand that they have no effect on reasonable people. THeir views never influenced me.

Bowulf: you are a very humble, gentle person. You did not engage in this kind of low level diatribe. Victoria, I admire your determination to stick to your principles. And Ajit, you have a great understanding of the human condition.

Bowulf
We on these threads know Victoria much longer than you do. She is not interested in searching for the Truth. So it is not surprising to us that she declined to dialog with you. She merely likes to parrot what the imam(s) of her mosque(s) wants her to preach. In other words do what we do;don't take her seriously.

Beowulf, Beowulf, Beowulf,

It is not copy and paste but TWNing i.e."thumping where needed" just like you thump the mythical and embellished bible to whomever and wherever for the last upteen years. Deal with it.

And please no prayers to the tooth fairies or tinker bells hiding under your bed or wherever.

Hello, Victoria, wherever you are, we are still awaiting your answers!!!!

Well stated Ajit-

"My goal is to see just as clearly through Victoria's paradigm as my own."

Beo- that is about as elegant as it gets.

Well, you know that thought occurred to me also- that it may seem to be proselytizing- but i picked them for their quality of universality to point out the similarities-

So, I let them stay for that. I also noticed on the eboo Patel board that Ajit posted the same hadeeth- so great minds think alike :)

Anonymous- if you're going to call someone a liar, at least be brave enough to do so directly-

"Victoria is being disingenuous when she tells you that she knows of no evidence about the Divinity of Jesus."

I was going under the assumption that Beowulfthepolitican, when he speaks of the divinity of Jesus(may he be blessed) was referring to the literal beief that Jesus(ata) was a divine incarnation of god on earth-

In that context, I believe I was being entirely and completely honest about my own beliefs.

See how easily words get twisted and tanken out of context? amazing!

As for scripture exchanges- mmaybe another place and time- but I don't want to get off trach here with that as I know they can go on and on and on...

here is a video from youtube- it has nothing to do with anything- but if it doesnt make you have a spark of happiness just watching it- you just dont have it in you-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNF_P281Uu4&feature=user

BeowulfthePolitician:

In the Islamic faith a prophet is simply a messenger of God. The messenger simply tells his people what acts are approved by Allah (God) and what are not.
A prophet is simply a human being, who has been asked by Allah to give His message to people.

BeowulfthePolitician:

You might have noticed that I did not say I was an athiest. An atheist is a non-believer in spirituality. In this century, the majority of time in a 24-hr day most of us spend 95+ % of our time in secular activities,i.e., eating, going to work, interacting with people, coming back home, watching TV and then going to sleep.

A person who is spiritually inclined sees spiritual value even in these seemingly secular activities.

When you go to work and make an honest living so that you can provide food and shelter to your family, there is both an emotional and spiritual reward in it. It is a form of worship.

When you interact with people and try to be fair in your dealings, there is also an spiritual reward in it--another form of worship.

When you come across a thirsty animal and provide water or shelter to that animal, there is a spiritual reward in it. Be kind to animals as well as human beings. Another act of worship.

When someone insults you and you simply walk away, you are not a coward but a spiritual person.

When you offer food to to your hungry neighbor or help your neighbor in some other way, you are engaging in a form of worship.

I learned all this from reading Rumi, the 7th century Muslim philosopher. Whether you proclaim to be a Muslim or not, by acting in the above-mentioned ways you are a Muslim.

Unfortunately, most of us are engaged in wars of identity--very superficial ways to identify ourselves as Christians, Jews, Muslims, or Hindus.

Re: Concerned the Christian Now Liberated:

While I disagree with your views regarding our Abrahamic Faiths, I do find your cut-and-paste posts amusing. It's rather like watching, "South Park". You denigrate everyone equally.

I will say a prayer to a prettie-winged thing on your behalf tonite.

Anonymous:

What might seem as prima facia evidence of Christ's Divinity, the Muslim world views as evidence of His "Prophet-ness" (if such a word exists.) In the Muslim mind, you can have all those characteristics because Allah can do anything through any man. Thus, it is more testament to the power of Allah than of any inherent Divine qualities of Christ. They see Christ through a different paradigm than you and I. Thus, what may appear as clear to one, may appear as muddled and vague to another. My goal is to see just as clearly through Victoria's paradigm as my own.

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

We are still waiting for your answers to the following poll/survery questions:

Do you believe:

1. In "pretty/ugly wingie"/paranormal thingies?

2. That the long-dead Arab did actually talk to the "pretty Gabriel" in the "Gabe" cave and therein received the warmongering and anti-female words now listed in the koran?

3. That Sunnis are superior to Shiites in all aspects of life?

4. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7 800 year-old feud between Sunnis and Shiites give significant credence that suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran?

5. That having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of lust and polygamy?

6. That the condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of anger and greed?

7. And that Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s book, Infidel, is her autobiography and that in the paperback issue, p. 47 the statement:

"Some of the Saudi women in our neighborhood were regularly beaten by their husbands. You could hear them at night. Their screams resounded across the courtyards. "No! Please! By Allah!" is the truth?????

Beowolf:

Victoria is being disingenuous when she tells you that she knows of no evidence about the Divinity of Jesus. The Quran which she, as a Muslim, believes to be the exact literal words of Allah i.e. God , is a clear testament to His Divinity. That book teaches the virgin birth of Jesus, that Jesus from the spirit of Allah, that he never sinned or “touched by Satan’ that he raised the dead and that He went straight to Heaven without dying. The book also foretells that Jesus will come back to judge humans on Judgment day. If these are not the attributes of the Divine I don’t know what is.

Harold, Harold, Harold,

Copying and pasting passages from the bible is a waste of your time. If someone wants to read fiction and embellished tales, they will go to their local libraries or simply read the various versions on line.

For not wanting to engage in a scripture war, you sure threw alot of Qur'an at me. ;)

I'm curious as to what specifically you studied in the OT & NT that influenced your decision. I've studied alot of OT messianic prophecy and NT fulfillment, and it was a clear correlation for me. I'm wondering what specifically pushed you in the opposite direction.

I am impressed that you shun muslim anti-Christian websites. I've found that the apologetic websites of both Faiths are normally based on Straw Man arguments and incorporate numerous logical fallacies, misinterpretations of each others' Scriptures, & other false premises. I would rather dialogue directly with learned muslims and come to my own conclusions.

Thank you again for indulging my curiousity.

(Should this Post cease to accept new comments, my email is allenc12373@yahoo.com.)

THank you again.

Anonymous of Aug1,12;01 PM quotes the following from Quran:
“And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you; our God and your God is One and we are committed to observe peace before Him ( Quran 29: 46).”

This verse along with few other somehow moderate verses were written in Mecca during the time Mohammad was trying to woo the Jews and Christians. Later when he moved to Medina he abrogated (repealed) all those verses and replaced them by intolerant verses such what follows

“Fight those who believe not
In God nor the Last Day == pagans
Nor hold that forbidden
Which hath been forbidden
By Allah and His Apostle,== God and Mohammad
Nor acknowledge the Religion
Of Truth(even if they are)== Islam
Of the People of the Book == Jews and Christians
Until they pay the Jizyah ==exorbitant head tax
With willing submission,
And feel themselves subdued“.==humiliated
(Quran 9:29.)

O, yes, I noticed your answers- but I have no will to engage in scripture wars- I have my own answers - but I promise not to proselytize to you if you promise not to proselytize to me, as I can assure you- it would be an extremely frustrating experience for both of us.

This is what the Qur'an says about the mission of Jesus(peace of the god bless him)

"To attest the law which was before me (Torah), And to make lawful to you part of what was forbidden you; I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear God and obey me." (Qur'an, 3:50)

"We gave Moses the scripture and followed him up with a succession of messengers and
We gave Jesus, son of Mary, profound miracles and supported him with the Holy Spirit.
It is not a fact that every time a messenger went to you with anything you disliked, your ego caused you to be arrogant? Some of them you rejected and some of them you killed." [2:87]

" Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and leads a righteous life, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." [2:62]

and finally, the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) speaks about Jesus(pbuh)

Volume 4, Book 55, Number 651:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

"I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "I am the nearest of all the people to the son of Mary, and all the prophets are paternal brothers, and there has been no prophet between me and him (i.e. Jesus)."

Volume 4, Book 55, Number 652:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

"Allah's Apostle said, "Both in this world and in the Hereafter, I am the nearest of all the people to Jesus, the son of Mary. The prophets are paternal brothers; their mothers are different, but their religion is one."

Hi Beo- thanks for your measured and reasonable response.
We don't necessarily have to adopt each other's entire ideology to have a discussion, the divinity of Jesus(may the god bless him) is what you believe, the messengership of Muhammad(pbuh) is, for me, an enhancement of and addition to(like the last word) prophets that came before.

My reasons for not believing in the divinity run long and deep, and are based on many many many readings and prayerful study of both the OT and NT.

I've never been to an anti-christian site, nor will I ever go to one- as I'm not anti-christian.

I had never had a conversation with a muslim when I decided to be one- I came to it in a sort of social vacuum through 2 solid years of praying the same prayer in earnestness-

I asked the god to show me the way to worship him/her in the way that she wanted me to- and if the form I was comfortable with was not correct, to lead me to the correct way.

That was how I was led, in my own spiritual life.
How others came to it, is their business.
However, being a blue eyed- white american born woman- I have noticed that alot of my sisters came to Islam through marriage- it is a stereotype I encounter alot-

I just show up here to be a bright voice- and my interest is not in comparing or competing- (to be honest, I always felt that Jesus(ata) was singularly anti-competition)

So, as we say, you to your beliefs and me to mine.
I hope I have the maturity to recognize the sincerity and goodness in people no matter what faith they follow, as my experiences have shown me many such folks in my life.

Some of the aspects and emphasis in Islamic society has refined some of my manners- and to me, it represents the true universal unity that I believe is what the god has intended for us to discover.

I think finding a common word means just that- to magnify the similarities, if only for a moment- because it is natural to dwell on the differences and they get enough attention already.

Also, the differences cannot help but be tinged with some form of competitiveness- with one trying to over emphasize the good in one's own views, while pronouncing the negative in anothers.

What a divisive and pointless enterprise.

It is easy for me to recognize the good in you, as you make it so.
I hope I make it easy for you to recognize the good in me also, and from that mutual concordance we have a starting off point for real conversations that edify and enlighten us both- without making either feel lacking in any way.

Good afternoon Ajit,

My apologies. I assumed you were a devout Muslim. Had I known that you were in fact, Secular, I would have couched it in more philosophical and/or scientific terms.

However, you did not ask for secular/scientific reasons for your 5 questions. (Especially considering the very Unsecular and Unscientific nature of your questions.)

I answer religious questions, religiously, scientific questions, scientifically, and philosophical questions, philosophically.

BeowulfthePolitician: Thank you for your response.

I do not mean any disrespect to you or any religion. I was born in a non-Christian family and your quoting the verses from the Bible to support your arguments does not mean much to me.

I live a normal secular life, i.e., eat, go to work, come back to my family and friends, watch TV etc.

I have background in science and a strong believer in technology.

All I read in this blog people (Christians and ex-Muslims)denouncing Islam. They pretend that Christianity is superior (which is fine if you are a Christian).

I have friends and colleagues of all faiths. In my daily routine, dealing with people of all faiths is a routine thing. The subject never comes up.

Please do not try to convert me or invite me to join your faith. I am never going to run to the Bible to support my religious argument. Spirituality that condemns other people is not spirituality.

I am better off not being a bigot.

The Quran assigns a special place to Christians and Jews as is evident from many verses, including this one:
And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you; our God and your God is One and we are committed to observe peace before Him (Al-Ankabut: 46).

Apart from the differences of details, the long history of political conflict between Islam and Christianity has tended to color the West's view of Islam. In the wake of 9/11 politicians and sections of the media have tended to portray Islam as a religion that preaches perpetual war on the followers of other faiths.


In this well-orchestrated campaign, reference is often made to those verses of the Quran (the collection of which took place over 22 years) which were revealed in actual battle conditions when Muslims were fighting for their survival. Reading them out of context would obviously lead to a gross misunderstanding of the teachings of Islam.

Prophet Muhammad was preaching monotheism which threatened the vested interests of Pagans. Initially, the Jews and Christians (of that time) supported him.

Later on Jews and Christians (of that time) felt threatened by the rise of Islam and started fighting with Muslims.The verses from the Quran identify the Christians and the Jews of the time, much the same way we are identifying, the Shia, the Sunni, the Kurds in Iraq today They signed treaties and broke those treaties.

There is no blanket condemnation of Judaism or Christianity in Quran, just as President Bush does not give blanket condemnation of Islam.

Good Morning Ajit:

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post. I will be more than happy to respond to each of your questions:

Ajit:
BeowulfthePolitician: I have several questions for you:

(a) If Jesus was son of God and he is God, how can he be regarded as God? SON OF GOD is GOD is an oxymoron.

[Answer: Jesus explains His own relationship with the Father as firstly, having co-existed with Him prior to his earthly appearance, (I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I AM. John 8:58. By saying "I AM" he directly references Exodus 3:14 to Himself.)

Secondly, the "son-ship" relationship began when Christ divested Himself of his Omnipotence to become human. He Himself quotes Psalms 110:1 about Himself in Matthew 22:41-45, {The Lord said to my Lord: Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet.} He poses this question to the Pharisees (religious jewish law experts), Whose son is the Christ? They reply "David's". He counters, "If then David calls him, "Lord", how then can he (the Lord) be his (David's) son? Jesus' implies that He is both son AND Lord. The Tanakh Experts have no rebuttal. Thus, He can be both Son of God AND GOD. It is no oxymoron.]

(b) How did Jesus die for my sins and the sins of billions of people who were not even born during his lifetime?

[Answer: If Jesus was nothing more than a great prophet, He would still be only human. His death could maybe count for one other person, but that's it. However, since He is Divinity, His death could be credited to all humanity, since God is worth far more than all of Creation.]

(c) The Bible says that God is omnipotent and omnipresent. How can an omnipotent entity "die"?

[Answer:

Firstly, the Tanakh messianic prophecies dictate that the messiah MUST die (such as Isaiah 53, Zechariah 12:10, Psalms 22:16, etc.) and be resurrected (Psalms 16:10-11 & 68:18). If He did not die and resurrect, He would not have fulfilled the messianic prophecies regarding this.

Secondly, this is best articulated in Philippians 2:6-11 : "Who being in very nature, God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness and became obedient to death on a cross..." ]

(d) Isn't Abraham the first human being who gave us the concept of oneness of God?

[Answer: Yes, but check out Genesis 1:26, "Then God said, 'Let US make man in OUR image'..." Since neither the Bible, (please correct me if I'm wrong) nor The Qur'an teaches that angels were involved in Creation, to whom was He speaking? In addition, there are many Hebrew names for God. One is "Elohim". Eloh (similar to Allah) means "The God". However, the "im" is a PLURAL suffix! For example, cherub vs cherubim, seraph vs seraphim, etc. Christians believe that God Is One, however, "One" is a corporate term not a singular term. (One government - 3 branches, One God - 3 Persons.)

(e) Do Christians believe in Armageddon, the return of Christ? Will all the Jews and non-Christians be converted to Christianity? And if they don't convert, will they be killed? Is there a moral justification for such killings of non-Christians in Christianity?

[Answer: Actually, both Jews and Christians believe in an End Times. The Tanakh book of Daniel is a great read on this subject, especially the last 3 chapters. The Injil book of Revelation heavily references Daniel & Ezekiel. The Injil teaches that Christ will return to snatch away His followers and return to Heaven (Known as The Rapture. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).

Then a 7-year period known as the "Great Tribulation" will occur. (Basically, the World being judged. Revelation ch. 6 thru ch. 20.) At the end, Christ will return permanently and establish His Kingdom. The time to believe is now, however, one can still accept Christ during the tribulation, though the prospect of martyrdom is extremely high during that time. When He returns to set up His Kingdom, it will be too late to turn to Him.

Your premise of "moral justification" seems to assume that God is bound to act in a way that you see as moral. To God, it is immoral to reject Christ (John 3:16-18), thus He is completely justified in punishing unbelievers.]

(f) Do evangelical Christians believe in The Constitution which gives equal protection under the law?

[Answer: Yes. The question itself is vague, but Christians absolutely believe in equal protection.]

Victoria tells Arif:
“O, Arif, I'm a Jew loving muslim and am stepping forward to challenge your assertion-
and to say that jewish people are descended from pigs is just disgusting crazy talk.
As a muslim- I rebuke such ugliness 100%.”

Does Victoria mean the following Quran verses "a crazy ugly talk?"

7:166 But when even after this they disdainfully persisted in that from which they were forbidden, We said to them, "Become apes—despised and disgraced!" (Maududi)
2:65 And you know well the story of those among you who broke Sabbath. We said to them: "Be apes—despised and hated by all."

5:60 Then say: "Should I inform you [People of the Book] of those, who will have even worse recompense from Allah than the transgressors? They are those whom Allah has cursed; who have been under His wrath; some of whom were turned into apes and swine; who worshipped taghut [the devil or idols]; those are the people who are in a far worse plight and who have turned farthest away from the Right Way."

the age of five

And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the Lord judge between me and thee.

“the Lord judge between me and thee”

Among Shi'a Muslims "the Mahdi symbol has developed into a powerful and central religious idea"[10] Shi'a Muslims believe that the Mahdi is the Twelfth Imam, Muhammad al-Mahdi, the Twelfth and last Imam, who was born in 868 AD and was hidden by God at the age of five. He is still alive but has been in occultation "awaiting the time that God has decreed for his return."

hidden by God at the age of five

These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,
And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

“heavens and of the earth” “earth and the heavens”
“there went up a mist from the earth”
“watered the whole face of the ground”
“Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground”
“breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”
“out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight”
“the tree of life also in the midst of the garden”
“good for food”
“the tree of knowledge of good and evil”

And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

“I am the Almighty God”
“walk before me, and be thou perfect”
“Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham”
“for a father of many nations have I made thee”

And Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, and charged him, and said unto him, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan.
Arise, go to Padanaram, to the house of Bethuel thy mother's father; and take thee a wife from thence of the daughters of Laban thy mother's brother.
And God Almighty bless thee, and make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a multitude of people;

“Isaac called Jacob”
“blessed him”
“God Almighty bless thee”
“make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a multitude of people”

And he lifted up his eyes, and saw his brother Benjamin, his mother's son, and said, Is this your younger brother, of whom ye spake unto me? And he said, God be gracious unto thee, my son.
And Joseph made haste; for his bowels did yearn upon his brother: and he sought where to weep; and he entered into his chamber, and wept there.

“he lifted up his eyes”
“saw his brother Benjamin”
“his mother's son”
“Joseph made haste”
“for his bowels did yearn upon his brother”

And he took and sent messes unto them from before him: but Benjamin's mess was five times so much as any of theirs. And they drank, and were merry with him.

“but Benjamin's mess was five times so much as any of theirs”

And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.
Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment, in meteyard, in weight, or in measure.
Just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin, shall ye have: I am the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt.
Therefore shall ye observe all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: I am the Lord.

“Just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin”

What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?

And Jonathan gave his artillery unto his lad, and said unto him, Go, carry them to the city.
And as soon as the lad was gone, David arose out of a place toward the south, and fell on his face to the ground, and bowed himself three times: and they kissed one another, and wept one with another, until David exceeded.
And Jonathan said to David, Go in peace, forasmuch as we have sworn both of us in the name of the Lord, saying, The Lord be between me and thee, and between my seed and thy seed for ever. And he arose and departed: and Jonathan went into the city.

“Jonathan said to David”
“Go in peace”
“forasmuch as we have sworn both of us in the name of the Lord”
“The Lord be between me and thee”
“between my seed and thy seed for ever”

My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue is the pen of a ready writer.
Thou art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever.
Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.
And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.

“my tongue is the pen of a ready writer”
“thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness”

Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said,
The Spirit of the Lord spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.
The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.

“The Spirit of the Lord spake by me”
“his word was in my tongue”

Shew us thy mercy, O Lord, and grant us thy salvation.
I will hear what God the Lord will speak: for he will speak peace unto his people, and to his saints: but let them not turn again to folly.
Surely his salvation is nigh them that fear him; that glory may dwell in our land.
Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.
Truth shall spring out of the earth; and righteousness shall look down from heaven.
Yea, the Lord shall give that which is good; and our land shall yield her increase.
Righteousness shall go before him; and shall set us in the way of his steps.

“Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace”
“Truth shall spring out of the earth; and righteousness shall look down from heaven”

What man is he that desireth life, and loveth many days, that he may see good?
Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile.
Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it.
The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry.

“that he may see good”
“Depart from evil, and do good”
“seek peace, and pursue it”

“I am the Almighty God”
“out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight”
“the tree of life also in the midst of the garden”
“good for food”
“the tree of knowledge of good and evil”

“I am the Almighty God”
“the tree of life also in the midst of the garden” “the tree of knowledge of good and evil”

For the word of the Lord is right; and all his works are done in truth.
He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the Lord.
By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

“word of the Lord were the heavens made”
“the host of them by the breath of his mouth”

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
For the Lord giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.
Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not; neither decline from the words of my mouth.
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.
She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.
The Lord by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.

“God Almighty bless thee”
“the tree of knowledge of good and evil” “the tree of life also in the midst of the garden”

But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee:
Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee.
Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the Lord hath wrought this?
In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.
Doth not the ear try words? and the mouth taste his meat?
With the ancient is wisdom; and in length of days understanding.
With him is wisdom and strength, he hath counsel and understanding.

“ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee”
“the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee”
“speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee”
“the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee”

“In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.”
“With him is wisdom and strength, he hath counsel and understanding”

The king shall joy in thy strength, O Lord; and in thy salvation how greatly shall he rejoice!
Thou hast given him his heart's desire, and hast not withholden the request of his lips. Selah.
For thou preventest him with the blessings of goodness: thou settest a crown of pure gold on his head.
He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever and ever.
His glory is great in thy salvation: honour and majesty hast thou laid upon him.
For thou hast made him most blessed for ever: thou hast made him exceeding glad with thy countenance.
For the king trusteth in the Lord, and through the mercy of the most High he shall not be moved.

“that he may see good”
“Depart from evil, and do good”
“seek peace, and pursue it”

“I am the Almighty God”
“the tree of life also in the midst of the garden” “the tree of knowledge of good and evil”
“God Almighty bless thee”
“the tree of knowledge of good and evil” “the tree of life also in the midst of the garden”

“Just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin”

“Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace”

Mercy, truth, meekness, righteousness, peace

“but Benjamin's mess was five times so much as any of theirs”

the age of five

fig tree, pomegranate tree, palm tree, apple tree, almond tree

Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:
Because I will publish the name of the Lord: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.

“My doctrine shall drop as the rain”

Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God.
Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the Lord.
If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them;
Then I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.

“I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.”

And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on,
So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the Lord be my God:
And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

“If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go”
“and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on”
“So that I come again to my father's house in peace”
“then shall the Lord be my God”
“and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee”

Only the Lord had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day.
Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
For the Lord your God is God of Gods, and Lord of Lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.

“Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart”
“loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment”

What man is he that desireth life, and loveth many days, that he may see good?
Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile.
Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it.
The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry.

“that he may see good”
“Depart from evil, and do good”
“seek peace, and pursue it”

And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the Lord your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,
That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil.

“the first rain and the latter rain”

Then answered Zophar the Naamathite, and said,
Should not the multitude of words be answered? and should a man full of talk be justified?
Should thy lies make men hold their peace? and when thou mockest, shall no man make thee ashamed?
For thou hast said, My doctrine is pure, and I am clean in thine eyes.
But oh that God would speak, and open his lips against thee;
And that he would shew thee the secrets of wisdom, that they are double to that which is! know therefore that God exacteth of thee less than thine iniquity deserveth.
Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection?
It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?

“For thou hast said, My doctrine is pure”
“And that he would shew thee the secrets of wisdom”
“that they are double to that which is”
“canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection”

Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred threescore and six talents of gold,

“Solomon in one year was six hundred threescore and six”

Now these are the children of the province that went up out of the captivity, of those which had been carried away, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried away unto Babylon, and came again unto Jerusalem and Judah, every one unto his city;
Which came with Zerubbabel: Jeshua, Nehemiah, Seraiah, Reelaiah, Mordecai, Bilshan, Mispar, Bigvai, Rehum, Baanah. The number of the men of the people of Israel:
The children of Adonikam, six hundred sixty and six.

“The children of Adonikam, six hundred sixty and six”

And there came of the children of Benjamin and Judah to the hold unto David.
And David went out to meet them, and answered and said unto them, If ye be come peaceably unto me to help me, mine heart shall be knit unto you: but if ye be come to betray me to mine enemies, seeing there is no wrong in mine hands, the God of our fathers look thereon, and rebuke it.
Then the spirit came upon Amasai, who was chief of the captains, and he said, Thine are we, David, and on thy side, thou son of Jesse: peace, peace be unto thee, and peace be to thine helpers; for thy God helpeth thee. Then David received them, and made them captains of the band.

“If ye be come peaceably unto me to help me”
“mine heart shall be knit unto you”
“but if ye be come to betray me to mine enemies”
“the God of our fathers look thereon, and rebuke it”
“the spirit came upon Amasai”
“Thine are we, David, and on thy side”
“peace, peace be unto thee, and peace be to thine helpers”
“Then David received them”

And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.

“the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David”
“Jonathan loved him as his own soul”

And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.

“in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples”
“the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty”
“the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas”
“which was guide to them that took Jesus”
“For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry”

But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

“there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees”
“That it was needful to circumcise them”
“to command them to keep the law of Moses”
“Peter rose up, and said unto them”
“ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us”
“that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word”
“and believe”

Good and upright is the Lord: therefore will he teach sinners in the way.
Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.
The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.
The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.
More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.

My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

“For dogs have compassed me”
“the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me”
“they pierced my hands and my feet”

“Peter rose up, and said unto them”
“ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us”
“that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word”
“and believe”

In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

“For thou hast said, My doctrine is pure”
“And that he would shew thee the secrets of wisdom”
“that they are double to that which is”
“canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection”

“Solomon in one year was six hundred threescore and six”
“The children of Adonikam, six hundred sixty and six”
“Peter rose up, and said unto them”
“ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us”
“that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word”
“and believe”

12-12-12

Jews seek their Solomon to rebuild the temple, yet they never knew him
Islam seeks the 12th Imam, yet they do not understand
Christians seek their messiah, yet they did not believe in him

O give thanks unto the Lord, for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Let the redeemed of the Lord say so, whom he hath redeemed from the hand of the enemy;
And gathered them out of the lands, from the east, and from the west, from the north, and from the south.
They wandered in the wilderness in a solitary way; they found no city to dwell in.
Hungry and thirsty, their soul fainted in them.
Then they cried unto the Lord in their trouble, and he delivered them out of their distresses.
And he led them forth by the right way, that they might go to a city of habitation.
Oh that men would praise the Lord for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of man!
For he satisfieth the longing soul, and filleth the hungry soul with goodness.
Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron;
Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High:
Therefore he brought down their heart with labour; they fell down, and there was none to help.
Then they cried unto the Lord in their trouble, and he saved them out of their distresses.
He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and brake their bands in sunder.
Oh that men would praise the Lord for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of man!
For he hath broken the gates of brass, and cut the bars of iron in sunder.
Fools because of their transgression, and because of their iniquities, are afflicted.
Their soul abhorreth all manner of meat; and they draw near unto the gates of death.
Then they cry unto the Lord in their trouble, and he saveth them out of their distresses.
He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions.
Oh that men would praise the Lord for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of man!

Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar.
And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the Lord hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.
And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.

“she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar”
“I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her”
“gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife”

And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the Lord judge between me and thee.

“the Lord judge between me and thee”

Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a seat to be set for the king's mother; and she sat on his right hand.

“for the king's mother; and she sat on his right hand”

And his house where he dwelt had another court within the porch, which was of the like work. Solomon made also an house for Pharaoh's daughter, whom he had taken to wife, like unto this porch.

“Solomon made also an house for Pharaoh's daughter, whom he had taken to wife”

LOOOOOOOOOOOK

“the Lord judge between me and thee”

SEEEEEEEEEEE

“for the king's mother; and she sat on his right hand”

“the Lord judge between me and thee”

“she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar”
“I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her”
“gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife”
“Solomon made also an house for Pharaoh's daughter, whom he had taken to wife”

HEARRRRRRRRR

Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.

“Just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin”
“Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace”
Mercy, truth, meekness, righteousness, peace

“For thou hast said, My doctrine is pure”
“And that he would shew thee the secrets of wisdom”
“that they are double to that which is”
“canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection”
“In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.”
“With him is wisdom and strength, he hath counsel and understanding”

“the spirit came upon Amasai”
“Thine are we, David, and on thy side”
“peace, peace be unto thee, and peace be to thine helpers”
“Then David received them”

The common Word should compare human rights in Christianity and Islam, for non-Muslims, for women, for ex-Muslim i.e. apostates.

The plight of Christian minority where there is a Muslim majority should form an extremely important part of Christian-Muslim dialogue.

A new comedy which opened in cinemas in Egypt this month has achieved what intellectuals and human rights activists have failed to do.

It has got Egyptians talking about tensions between the country's majority Muslim population and its Christian minority.

The film, Hassan and Morqos, co-stars Egyptian comedy legend Adel Imam as Boulos, a Coptic Christian priest, and Alexandria-born Hollywood star Omar Sharif as Sheikh Mahmoud, a Muslim preacher...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7525277.stm

Anonymous of July 31, 5:55 PM said:
“That force is the message of love, peace, and forgiveness taught by Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad.”

If you truly believe the above you don’t know anything about Islam. In other words you could not be a Muslim. This is a new trend on these WAPO threads for Muslims to link their prophet’s name with Moses and Jesus along with their messages to gain their prophet and their religion a measure of acceptance and respect by those whom they describe as “infidels” . It is a naïve effort that will never work because non-Muslims are for the most part well informed , believe in using their brains and are critical minded .

Anonymous Christian: Do you still believe that the earth is flat and that the earth is at the center of the universe?

The medieval view that the earth was the unmoving center of the universe, known as geocentrism, was inherited from the ancient Greeks and systematized in the second century AD by the pagan astronomer Ptolemy.

Although the Ptolemaic system was not actually taught in the Bible, it was easy for the medieval Christian world to read the idea into various biblical texts.

The Scripture most commonly cited to prove the geocentric position was Joshua 10:13, which states that in answer to Joshua’s prayer “the sun stopped in the middle of the sky, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.”

The belief that the earth stood at the center of the universe with all heavenly bodies moving around the earth was correlated with the Christian doctrine that human beings were uniquely related to God as his representatives in the material universe.

It seemed so sensible, so obvious, that the most important creatures in the universe would live at its center.

This theological perspective, more typically assumed than stated, combined with the obvious fact that the earth feels stationary and the heavenly bodies look like they are revolving around the earth, made any suggestion to the contrary seem both irreverent and foolish.

The Christian should be able to say without hesitation to a Muslim, 'On this I can agree, but on the following we should agree to disagree,' and know exactly what both the points are.

Any Christian who enters into a religious dialogue with Muslims should similarly be trained to know the arguments put forward by a Muslim and how to deal with them from a Christian viewpoint.

There is a spiritual need in human beings. As long as Christians fight among themselves and drive people of goodwill away from Christianity as a result, ex-Christians will be attracted to Islam. Muslims are fiercely loyal to each other and they never criticize their religion. Muslims who set out to convert are trained to present the Bible in a way that makes the truth of the Bible seem questionable and the Quran seem perfect.

All that should serve as a wake-up call for Christians. But it doesn't seem to because some Christian denominations are busy tearing other Christian denominations down and they do it so publicly that it turns genuine spiritual seekers away from Christianity altogether.

There are many ex-Muslims who live in fear of their lives and are willing to explain the less comfortable verses of the Quran and about the practices in the cultures shaped by Islam for centuries.

Muslims need to be aware, thanks to Al-Quaeda and September 11 and other terrorist attacks in the name of Islam, many non-Muslims are reading the Quran for themselves. The explanation nobody can understand the Quran unless they read it in Arabic just won't do because the Quran has been translated by native speakers of Arabic.

The problems Christians have in interfaith dialogue with Muslims, as opposed to working together on humanitarian causes ---

Some Muslims begin with the opening claim Christians have got their own Scripture wrong. A Christian is expected to accept the Quranic view of Jesus Christ and all the Old Testament prophets.

The Quran admits to the Virgin birth of Jesus but it does not accept His divinity. It is a paradox.

When a Christian then goes on to counter that they don't agree with what is written about Jesus in the Quran, the Muslim claims that only one who has read the Quran in Arabic could ever understand it...

Muslims need to have reasonable explanation for such "dialogue." There is not a single verse in the Bible that criticizes Muslims or Mohammad. But there are many verses in the Quran that are not kind to Jews and Christians. Muslims need to give a reasonable explanation, at least a promise that Muslims won't act on call to hate Christians and Jews. The onus is on Muslims to convince Christians that they do not see Christians as enemies.

Pascrell: ‘Long Way to Go’ to Engage U.S. Muslims
Posted 7/31/2008 4:37:00 PM

Washington, DC – U.S. Rep. Bill Pascrell, Jr. (D-NJ-08) yesterday stated his strong disagreement with statements made by Homeland Security Committee Ranking Member Peter King (R-NY) who expressed his belief that while American Muslims may not support terrorism they are not doing enough as a community to help law enforcement fight terrorism. This exchange occurred during a vital hearing of the House Homeland Security Subcommittee on Intelligence, Information Sharing & Terrorism Risk Assessment on the subject: “Reassessing the Threat: the Future of Al Qaeda and Its Implications for Homeland Security.”

During the hearing one of the expert witnesses, Lawrence Wright, a fellow at the NYU Center on Law and Security, posited his belief that agencies such as the CIA, FBI and local law enforcement need to do more to try and “engage” rather than “penetrate” Muslim American communities.

Rep. Pascrell agreed with this sentiment and stated that, “in my mind, we have a thousand miles to go before we can say we are really engaging the Muslim American community in our homeland security effort.”

Mr. Wright responded by expressing that the only way to truly engage the community was to hire Muslims at all levels of law enforcement and use their unique language and background skills to aid in the fight against terrorism.

“America must view the Muslim community as a great asset to our homeland security effort and take real steps to engage them. We cannot risk becoming like Europe where Muslim citizens have been pushed to the margins of society and are looked at as objects of suspicion,” said Pascrell after the hearing.

Rep. Pascrell also took the opportunity at the hearing to rebut Ranking Member King’s criticism of an ad campaign designed to educate the public about Islam to be placed on New York subway cars in September during the Muslim holy month of Ramadan.

The Congressman pointed out during the hearing that the ads merely highlight questions that average Americans have about Islam and provides the website (whyislam.org) where curious individuals could find answers to those questions.

Rep. King is currently urging the Metropolitan Transit Authority to reject the ads, stating earlier that: “I'm calling on the MTA not to have these ads, not to go forward with them, and I don't see this as a free speech issue at all." The New York Post also had a negative response to the ads, running a cover on Monday with the headline "Jihad Train" and posting an article on its Web site with the headline "Train-ing day for jihadists" and the first paragraph saying, "Allah aboard!"

Rep. Pascrell responded to the controversy after the hearing by stating: “I am deeply disappointed in any public official or media outlet that would use harsh rhetoric against this ad campaign which simply seeks to answer people’s questions about Islam. This is exactly the kind of dialogue we need. Instead of making people fear one another, we should bridge the gaps in our collective knowledge. As it says in the ad, whether it comes to questions about Islam or questions about our communal homeland security strategy – ‘you deserve to know.’”

For Miroslav Volf's eyes only:

The only way to solve the Christian/Islamic (you forgot Judaism issues) is to correct the flaws and errors in said religions. Once this is done, there will be religious peace in the world.

The Flaws and Errors of the Major Contemporary Religions-(we await your suggestions on how to correct these)

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a mythical character as was mythical Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

Many of the 1.5 million Conservative Jews and many of their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.

Current crisis:

Realization that the Jews are not god's not chosen people.
simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. www. earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

Current crises:

Pedophiliac priests, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

3. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

Current crises:

Adulterous preachers, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology. .

4. Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/ plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/ mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

Current crises:

The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder.

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."

The caste/laborer system and cow worship/reverence are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

Current crises:

The caste system and cow worship/reverence.

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."
"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life. e.g. Buddha by one legend was supposedly talking when he came out of his mother's womb.

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies, and myths surrounding the founders and foundations of said rules of life.

Victoria: It is a good idea to ignore Arif. Isn't he the one who posted the picture of a nude model in Eboo Patel's column (blog). The moderator quickly removed that picture.

Consider this:

Prophet Muhammad said: "Both in this world and in the hereafter, I am the nearest of all people to Jesus, the son of Mary. The prophets are paternal brothers; their mothers are different, but their religion is one."

Muslims, Christians, and Jews around the world are in desperate need of a unifying force of interfaith understanding.

That force is the message of love, peace, and forgiveness taught by Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad.

All of us must honor the spirit of tolerance by building bridges of interfaith understanding. `

"This shows your character. You denounce Islam here in America and are "one of them (Muslims)" when you go home?"

How do you tell your Muslim parents or your Muslim friends, Mohammed was a war mongering fraud, he was a thief, he was murderer, a liar and above all else a mysognist. I know of Christian/Jewish parents who still love their children despite them calling Jesus names or Moses a killer...you get the point.

Arif says:"I still am part of this religion when I go home or whatever I do."

This shows your character. You denounce Islam here in America and are "one of them (Muslims)" when you go home?

What a brazen claim!

BeowulfthePolitician: I have several questions for you:

(a) If Jesus was son of God and he is God, how can he be regarded as God? SON OF GOD is GOD is an oxymoron.

(b) How did Jesus die for my sins and the sins of billions of people who were not even born during his lifetime?

(c) The Bible says that God is omnipotent and omnipresent. How can an omnipotent entity "die"?

(d) Isn't Abraham the first human being who gave us the concept of oneness of God?

(e) Do Christians believe in Armageddon, the return of Christ? Will all the Jews and non-Christians be converted to Christianity? And if they don't convert, will they be killed? Is there a moral justification for such killings of non-Christians in Christianity?

(f) Do evangelical Christians believe in The Constitution which gives equal protection under the law?

Victoria;
If only you knew Islam. I was born into this, my father was born into this and so was his father and so on. Though I am nothing now but my makeup is Muslim. I still am part of this religion when I go home or whatever I do. You on the other hand practice Christoislam. You know nothing about Islam and makeup most of it as you go along. You are what the muslims need going forward, more power to you. You preach an islam that is western made and not the root islam.

Anonymous boy: Look toward your main man mohammed, who did he love? Not even his "favorite" wife Ayesha. Who did he forgive, no one. There are Hadiths where adulterers come to him for counseling and he has her stoned to death. Love forgives, love forgets. The tribe of Jews he beheads, where is the love? Not even Victoria here will forgive those "traitor" Jews of Qurayza because Mohammed refused to, neither does karen armstrong. Where is the forgiveness here? The case of the camel theieves who stole the camels he (mohammed) stole, how does you merciful prophet deal with those thieves? Tell us, tell us how he executes them? Please come forward!
Does the koran have the word LOVE in it? The meaning of the word LOVE that the rest of the world knows.
I still inisist there is no love in ISLAM.
Where is the love? ...reminds me of a song.

This...
"In the Name of God, the All­
Compassionate, the All Merciful"

is NOT love, neither is sura 111 and others like it.

Victoria:
"O, Arif, I'm a Jew loving muslim and am stepping forward to challenge your assertion-"

Was mohammed your prophet justified in killing the 800+ Jews at banu qurayzza? No explanations, he was the commander in chief; he could have spared them; Yes or NO.

Jesus(ata)-

What's all this "(ata)" business?

Victoria:

It seems ealier today, you and I exhibited "Inter-Faith Cooperation" on the Atheist comment boards. Though we were both subject to intense criticism, I appreciated your voice of reason and tolerance. Thank you.

I don't expect many open hearts and minds to this subject on this blog, but Victoria, it's important that you know why Christians believe in Jesus as divinity, not simply as a prophet.

With regards to Christ's claims of Divinity, we start by putting ourselves in the mindsets of the Jews of the 1st century. Many claims that Jesus made about Himself, seem ordinary or mundane to the Modern Western mind today, however, to the Ancient Jewish mind, these same claims sparked HUGE outrage.

Claims like "Son of God; I and the Father am One; before Abraham was born, I AM, etc." were interpreted literally by his audience. (They were not metaphors of "oneness in purpose" or son-of-God-in-the-same-way-Adam-was-a-son-of-God as many muslim anti-Christian websites propose.)

The evidence of this lies in the numerous Gospels' accounts of the Jews constantly attempting to stone Him on the spot for blaspemy! If it were merely the other explanations, they would have agreed with Him by saying, "So what? We too are one with God and Sons of God".

The Jews of that day referred to themselves as Abraham's Children predominantly. (In fact, the Pharisees, or religious leaders of that day, often subtley insulted Jesus' patronage. It was commonly known that Joseph was not his biological father so whose son exactly He was, was a debatable issue. The Pharisees would make comments like, "We KNOW who OUR father is..." all the time, whenever Jesus would refer to His Father in Heaven.)

Jesus spoke of God in ways no other prophet had or has ever spoken of God. Jesus claimed to forgive sins, Jesus accepted worship, He taught that the Old Testament Scriptures spoke of Him. He claimed to be the same Deity that conferred with Moses on Mt. Sinai. These claims go far beyond a mere prophet.

Victoria, this post is for you only as you have made the claim to examine the Bible and see no evidence of Christ's Divinity. I challenge you to go back, remove the Modern American filter, and put yourself in the ancient readers' shoes. See their actions in response to Him.

Or you could simply revert to all the standard muslim anti-Christian websites and repeat the same pat responses that have existed for centuries.

Either way, I do look forward to more inter-faith cooperation with you as we battle the atheists!

Peace,

Beo.

ARIF--the most ignorant, hateful, and recalcitrant:

ordan Times
Wednesday, September 5, 2007

‘There is Enough Love in Holy Koran’

AMMAN (JT) - HRH Prince Ghazi on Tuesday said Islam views love as an essential element in life, stressing that the Holy Koran places much emphasis on this topic.

In his keynote address at the opening of the 14th General Conference of the Royal Aal al Bayt Institute for Islamic Thought at the Dead Sea, Prince Ghazi, who deputised for His Majesty King Abdullah, said one of the reasons for deciding on the issue of love in the Holy Koran as a conference theme was “to respond to some who do not see there is enough love in the Holy Koran, and mistakenly believe that Islam is just a religion of sword and violence”.

In fact, there are dozens of terms in the Holy Koran that refer to more than 50 forms of love, he told the gathering.

Prince Ghazi, who is the King’s personal envoy and special adviser, heads Aal al Bayt Institute’s board of trustees.

The conference is a component of Aal al Bayt Institute’s programme to portray the true Islam, rectify misconceptions about the religion, and foster ties and intellectual discourse among Muslim scholars, a statement said ahead of the meeting.

Participants were expected to discuss the concept of love in Islam as “an ethical practice, a component of worship and a requirement for social well-being, and as a tool to promote philanthropy”, the statement said.

Prince Ghazi told more than 100 Muslim scholars from 40 countries taking part in the three-day meeting that the conference’s deliberations revolve around three topics: Love of God, love of the Messenger of God and love of people, in addition to a special discussion of the main theme in English.

He said the scholars were expected to discuss in detail these concepts and what it means to love God and His Prophet.

The Prince added that love among people and human love of things in this world is much highlighted in the Koran, including love among family members and between friends. As to affection between husbands and wives, it is the only form of love that has physical and psychological sides, he noted, adding this issue needs more studies to explore.

Addressing the scholars, who represent various schools of Islamic jurisprudence and sects, Prince Ghazi said it was hoped the meeting would come up with answers to questions related to the topic of deliberation.

The institute’s director, Ibrahim Shabouh, outlined in his address the accomplishments of the foundation, which undertakes major projects designed to promote the true Islamic thought and help researchers access credible information about the faith.

One of the institute’s major projects is the “Great Tafsirs of the Holy Koran”.

Altafsirs.com, now fully operational in Arabic and English, is a completely free, nonprofit website that provides access to the largest online collection of Koranic commentaries, translation, recitation and essential resources.

Towards the end of the opening ceremony, Prince Ghazi presented, on behalf of the King, medals to member scholars from the institute for their services and distinguished accomplishments.

He also presented membership certificates to scholars who have joined the institute as full members and correspondents.

The King’s deputy also presented the prize of King Abdullah I Award. The first prize was split between the Kingdom’s mufti Nuh Qudah and his predecessor Sheikh Saeed Hijjawi, while Abdul Hakim Murad Wantar won the second prize.

Re: Man-Woman Love in Islam
Posted: May 21, 2007 3:43 AM in response to: Abu Tameem in response to: Abu Tameem
Click to reply to this thread Reply

Lust is not the same as love.

"To love someone" is to care about that person in particular. To feel a need to protect him/her, to be with him/her all the time, to want to built a life with him/her, have kids, etc.

"Lust" is wanting to hit the sack with him/her and then move on... without him/her

Lust can be part of love though. Love translates itself on several levels. Spiritually as well as physically. And sometimes, you just feel like having raw sex (sorry for the explicit language), and lying about it is not helpfull. Everyone knows these urges and everyone experiences them on a weekly basis mostly, some people with high testosteron levels experience daily or several times a day.

True, your lust can be fullfilled by any person of the opposite sex. Whereas your spiritual love can only be answered by that special person.

It is my opinion that it is best to "save" your lust for that person as well. You live together, you share your life together. In light of being completely open and honest to eachother (wich is refered to as the "secret" ingredient of a long good marriage), you should be honest about your physicall feelings as well, and share them with your loved one.

ARIF IS THE PERSON WHO SPREADS HATRED AGAINST MUSLIMS IN THE MOST PROVOCATIVE WAYS. HE HAS NO SHAME IN LYING.

Here is an article about the concept of love in Islam, I found on the internet:

In the Name of God, the All­
Compassionate, the All‑Merciful

Every heart that is not aflame is no heart;

A frozen heart is nothing but a handful of clay.

O God! Give me a breast that sets ablaze,

And in that breast a heart, and that heart

consumed with fire. [0]

There is a shared commitment to love and compassion among all great religions of the world. The virtue of love is universally recognised. However, it is sometimes understood in different ways within different traditions. In Islam, the concept of love is one of the most important concepts. This fact manifests itself in Islamic philosophy, theology, mysticism and ethics; indeed, in some aspects, it plays the melt crucial role. For example, in defining the Islamic point of view on the relation between God and tie‑whole universe in general, and between God and mankind in particular, love has the most significant place. Love is so central in Islam that it is seep as "the firmest handhold of faith" and "faith is nothing but love for the sake of God and hate for the sake of God". God has created the world out of lWe, treats human beings with love and asks them to lake.

In the present work, I have tried to elaborate on the significance and the doctrinal foundations of love in Islam. I have studied both Divine love (for Himself, for all beings and for mankind) and human love (for God and for fellow humans). Of course, this short study can be considered just as an introduction to the subject of love.

To understand the Islamic point of view, my study has involved considerably scriptural exegesis. I have greatly relied on the Qur'an and the Sunnah as the primary sources of Islamic thought. The Sunnah can be regarded as the application of the Qur'anic teachings to the problems of life as exemplified in the Prophet's deeds, sayings and approvals (of the deeds or sayings of others in his presence). The Sunnah of the Prophet is narrated by Muslims generation after generation, especially by his household, ahlul‑bayt. I have also referred to some masterpieces of great Muslim mystics, philosophers, theologian and poets on the subject of love. What h have done in this work has been to discover a generally accepted picture of love in Islam. Unless otherwise mentioned, I have tried to refer to common points and what is acceptable to all Muslims. Indeed, in principle, there seems to be not much difference between different scholars on the subject at issue.

I have to say that there have been many works completely or partly dedicated to this subject. However, there is still more to be said on this important and vital issue, especially for English readers. The present work enjoys access to original Islamic sources in Arabic and Persian, while considering available literature on the subject in English as well. In any case, I hope this study can make a useful contribution to the field of Islamic studies.

In the present work, I have tried to elaborate on the significance and the doctrinal foundations of love in Islam. I have studied both Divine love (for Himself, for all beings and for mankind) and human love (for Cod and for fellow humans). Of course, this short study can be considered just as an introduction to the subject of love.

Knowing God and getting close to Him that I felt I would no longer be able to continue my ordinary life. Despite ail the plans that my parents and I had previously made for me, I decided to start a completely new life. I left my city and moved to the city of Qum, in which one of the main Islamic seminaries exists for more than one thousand years. I devoted my life to knowing more profoundly about Islam and, more importantly, to get closer to God. Although I am not happy with the success that I have made, I am quite confident that I have made the best decision for myself and I have chosen the brightest way, the path of love.

Thanks Anonymous- it is that looking inward first and finding the plank within our own eye before trying to scrutinize the splinter in our brothers that is necessary for any decent beginning.

Arif- funny you should say this-
"Muslims do not lay any emphasis on the love of neighbor, in fact there is no mention of Love in the Muslim faith. Islam is devoid of the human emotion of Love. It is loveless. Love is a very forgiving natural human emotion and Islam is not a forgiving ideology."

look back over my posts, for ease i'll paste my comments prior-

"We can either try to create chaos and division, or we can make a sincere effort to create mutual respect and LOVE between us-"

"Muslims have a great LOVE for Jesus(ata), so much so that to even say or write his name we must call the blessings of ALLAH upon him-"

and this-

"We are encouraged to consider them co-worshippers deserving of our LOVE."

All of our prayers start with, "In the name of the god, the merciful and compassionate."

Beowulf- I think it is possible to have a nice intrchange with you without debasing the divinity of Jesus(ata).
To not agree, is not to debase. Otherwise, I could demand that you accept Muhammad(pbuh) as the final messenger of the god before we converse, which would be ridiculous.

We don't have to become each other to understand, love or respect eaqch other and see what is valuable inside.

I respect your conviction, and your faith and the attendant goodness one assumes goes with such faith.
Peace

O, Arif, I'm a Jew loving muslim and am stepping forward to challenge your assertion-
and to say that jewish people are descended from pigs is just disgusting crazy talk.
As a muslim- I rebuke such ugliness 100%.

When I mentioned the need for reform in Muslim societies, I had the Taliban of Afghanistan in mind.

Remember, the Taliban before 9/11 destroyed the ancient statues of Buddha by dynamiting them, despite a delegation of Islamic countries pleading that they refrain from destroying those images of Buddha?

They are the most ignorant of the entire humanity.
(1) the Quraan says "lakum denakum waleyadin" (To you your faith, to me mine) There are numerous verses in the Quraan exhorting the followers that there is no compulsion in religion.

They could have developed a tourist spot where the statutes were. They could have developed the area as a tourist resort. That would have provided jobs to local people. They not only violated the tenets of their own faith, but also acted with stupidity.

Instead, they grow poppy. Again, a violation of their own faith. Narcotics are strictly prohibited in Muslim faith.

The fanatics have no idea what it takes to feed a population, build schools, hospitals, etc. The most ignorant people on earth.

A few things to note before going about the notion of peace between the two faiths...
1. "What binds Muslims and Christians together is their common belief in the Oneness of God and the commandments to love God and love neighbor. "

The Christians believe in the oneness of God and the love of neighbor, the Christians are not the problem, the Muslims are not at peace with themselves and others. Muslims believe in oneness of Allah and mohammed as his prophet (a very strange notion, but we have to use backward Muslim logic here).
Muslims do not lay any emphasis on the love of neighbor, in fact there is no mention of Love in the Muslim faith. Islam is devoid of the human emotion of Love. It is loveless. Love is a very forgiving natural human emotion and Islam is not a forgiving ideology. Whip, behead, burn and above all else "teach you a lesson" religion.

2. "And this same belief and the same commitment, of course, bind Christians and Muslims to their older sibling, the original Abrahamic faith, Judaism."

Mohammed the founder of Islam fought the Jews, his worst enemies were the Jews, Muslims worst enemies are the Jews, if there is a Jew loving Muslim among you, "please come forward".

3. "To the contrary, we must say: "The deeper your faith is, the more in harmony with others you will live!" A deep faith no longer leads to clashes; a deep faith fosters peace."

This does not apply to Islam. The main tenant of Islam is that it's the true religion and others have corrupt books and laws. The Christian God is actually a second rate "prophet" and the Jews are decendants of apes and pigs.

Its amusing though and encouraging too, lets see how the ever rioting and the always in conflict Muslims overcome this problem... nevertheless "please come forward" though.

BeowulfthePolitician:

I agree with you. Your point should lead to asking people of all religions to look at our own behaviors, distortions of our own faiths, and ethnocentrism.

As a Muslim, I feel I must look for the need for reform among Muslim societies.

I always struggle with the question why haven't Muslims followed the model of Rumi rather than follow the Wahabi model?

Many of the practices in the Muslim world have nothing to do with Islam. "Honor killings", although not rampant but sporadic are un-Islamic.
Not allowing girls go to school is un-Islamic. How can you leave half the population to be un-educated?

Similarly, Christians should look into the notion of "waiting for the Armageddon, the return of Christ, and convert all non-Christians to Christianity." And if they domnot convert then, what?

We must look for ways to develop tolerance.

Kudos to the authpor of this article.

Beowulf- Mo wasn't quoting Qur'an, he was simply giving a small example of the attributes of ALLAH-

As a christian, and using only the bible- I could find no evidence of the divinity of Jesus(ata) but found over 100 passages where jesus(ata) made the distinction between his own personhood and that of his father.

There is much of the Tanakh and Injeel that muslims accept and respect as true-
so it is not an outward or overt rejection at all.

We are exhorted to find what is worthy and good in the people of the book and their worship of the god.
We are encouraged to consider them co-worshippers deserving of our love.

I encourage you to read the link provided,@ 11:23AM- and in doing so- maybe also think a little outside of the box :)

You will find that there are very few pre-conditions there- I think attempting a dialogue without pre-conditions (which set up boundaries and division so noted) is an excellent beginning for mutual concordance.
Peace

Dear Mo,

Simply quoting the Quran & Muslim doxology doesn't prove your point any more than quoting the Bible proves mine. Both Jews and Christians reject the Quran just as Muslims reject the Tanakh and the Injil as incomplete and/or corrupted.

Try to think outside the box.

Mo is a terrific example of why Jews, Christians, and Muslims can never achieve true inter-faith cooperation. Our religions simply don't permit us.

Religion should transform our character by suppressing the evil and promoting the good.

No doubt, when we go into the details of what belief systems of different faiths are and we start evaluating them with our own ethnocentric views then conflicts arise.

Religion belongs to the realm of the supernatural. There are two common elements in religion: (1) the presence of the sacred, and (2) rituals.

Sacred is something which exists in the minds of the believer. A symbol is something which stands for something else. Hence, to a Catholic the holy cross made of a piece of silver is 'holy'. To someone who is not Christian, it is only a piece of silver.

Religions operate on the principle of reward and punishment. If one follows the tenets of the faith, one will be rewarded. If one does not follow the tenets of the faith one will be punished.

Monotheistic religions use 'heaven' and 'hell' as their ways of rewarding and punishing.

In Buddhism, it is one's 'karma' (deeds) that is used to entice followers to conform to the standards set by the society. It is the endless cycle of birth and death that can finally lead to 'nirvana'.

All religions demand conformity to the social standards and create the "we" feeling. Those who do not conform are 'they'. The struggle is always "us" vs. "them".

As a Muslim, I feel I must have faith in the 5 pillars of Islam. But I have no right to evaluate or judge people of other faiths.That judgment only belongs to Allah, God, Yahweh, Ishwar etc. I must develop respect other people's beliefs and must leave them alone so that the can practice their faith.

This the minimum condition for 'tolerance'.

AL,ILLAH.

AL is an identification mark in the arabic language equal to the -THE- in english.

ILAH,in the arabic language literally means worshiped.

AL,ILAH literaly means the god to be worshiped.

mankind since adam and eve never knew any god but AL,ILAH -the god -worthy of worship.,if you know of any ILAH other than AL,ILAH worthy of worship please come forward?

AL,ILLAH is the one to identify himself,

AL,ILLAH identify himself as the following in the last and final scripture to mankind QURAN,s59v24,

he is ALLAH ,the creator ,the inventor of all things,the bestower of forms .to him belong the best names.all that in the heavens and earth glorify him.and he is the allmighty,the allwise.

1-the above names are not the only names.

2-no body ,none , share AL,ILLAH in this title but AL,ILLAH ,he is the creator ,none share the creator in the creation,if you and the rest of your family or the rest of the universe can creat even a wing of a mosquito ,please come forward.

3-AL,ILLAH is the creator ,the originator ,the fashioner , he as well is the owner of this univers . ,if you know any other owner please come forward,not only the owner but the inheirtor as well ,remember you and me will certainly leave it sonner or later no doubt about it.

AL,ILLAH is the one who initiate and the same one who return back ,from dead to live and from live to dead .

no wonder whatever in the heavens and the earths glorify AL,ILLAH .

As an Evangelical Christian who has had numerous excellent Muslim acquaintances, I can agree in part with your premise that both religions can work together for the "common good". Issues such as homosexuality and abortion can be strong rallying points for both of our faiths.

The problem for Christians is that if we begin working with Muslims publicly, we fear we will be seen as implictly advocating Muslim theology by that very partnership.

The divinity of Christ is paramount. No prophet achieved what Christ achieved, performed the miracles He performed, or made the claims He made. The arguments of corrupted Holy Books and historical re-writes after the fact serve to further alienate Christians from Muslims. The internet is full of Christian/Muslim debate and counter-debate on this issue. Both sides present very compelling evidence exonerating their views while debasing the other.

If you presented cooperation in a way that didn't debase the divinity of Christ, you could achieve Inter-Faith cooperation. However, as has been previously posted, the Qur'an would not allow for this. Thus, we are interminably at odds. Nevertheless, I do love my muslim friends and am committed to inter-faith dialogue with them.

A common word is taken from the Qur'an, in the sura or book of Al-Imran- so named after the family of Jesus(ata)-

Say: O People of the Scripture! Come to a common word between us and you: that we shall worship none but God, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside God. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (unto Him). (Aal ‘Imran 3:64)

As you see, it is a call and outreach for dialogue and peace between peoples-
We have more in common with each other than we have differences-

We can either try to create chaos and division, or we can make a sincere effort to create mutual respect and love between us-

Muslims have a great love for Jesus(ata), so much so that to even say or write his name we must call the blessings of ALLAH upon him-

There is only one unfrogivable sin in Islam- not many- and that is shirk- setting up a partner besides the god- and that can take the form of anything that consumes ones energies and attentions and distracts from from the worship and attention due to ALLAH.

Here is the full text of the letter- I also encourage any who access it to check out the Amman Message- which is a call fo unity to Muslims within their own communities.
Peace
http://www.acommonword.com/index.php?lang=en&page=option1

“Common Word” is taken from a sentence in a letter supposedly written by Mohammad, the prophet of the Muslims, to the Patriarch of Egypt asking him to join Islam. The full sentence was: Oh Ye People of the Book1 Let us have a COMMON WORD between you and us that we worship only Allah, and we enjoin no others with Him.
This strict oneness of God was the belief of one of the Heretic Christian denominations that flourished in the Arabian Peninsula during the time of Mohammad. At present I know of two Christian denominations that teach the simple singular concept of God; the Unitarians and Jehovah Witnesses.
Muslims believe that this “enjoining” which they call “shirk’ is one of the unpardonable sins. This is also why they refer to us as polytheists, although their Quran distinguishes between the polytheists and Nasara i.e. Christians