To thehereandnow:
You say there is no such thing as cultural Catholics and I would suggest that there certainly is because I would bet that at least some Christians kinda go through the motions of their religion in an almost knee-jerk fashion as do some people of all faiths.
For example they celebrate the holidays such as Christmas and Easter because that is what their family did when they were children and what they get together to celebrate as adults. They do so even if they don't really believe in the church dogmas.
If all of a sudden if they would refuse to take part in those family celebrations or if they converted to some other religion, they would in many cases wind up disappointing many of their family members who might disown them. I would bet that the loneliness would be too much to bear for many.
That is so cultural.

Some of the big problems in trying to figure out just what happened 2000+ years ago with Jesus etal., is that first of all none of the Gospels were written until at least several decades after Jesus died. We don't really know for sure what he said and what the founders of Christianity included in those writtings to bolster their new found religion and to secure power.
With all the methods of modern science and communications that we have today we still don't know what really happened with O.J. Simpson and his wife with absolute certainty or many other crimes and political situations. How can one be sure as to what happened back then.

August 6, 2008
Dear Mr. Carroll:
I am a pro-zionist Jew and I am reading your book "Constantines Sword" and I agree with most of what you seem to be saying. But if all or even most Christians would be ready to accept what you say, it quite possibly could mean the undoing of all of Christianity and that could be a dangerous thing because most people are like sheep and they may become so lost that they might be drawn into militant Islamo/facism and then as a Jew I might really be in trouble.
Are you going to be speaking anywhere in the New York metropolitan area.

I was reared in a fundamentalist church which maintained that Jews were cursed forever and would be judged most harshly at world's end. As I aged I came to criticize this view openly, but I was not able to change many minds.

Therefore I made the ultimate protest. I crashed out of the church, became agnostic,and eventually accepted Judaism and became bar Mitzvah at 77.

If the Nazis thought they were carrying out Catholic teachings how could they reconcile anything that Jesus said with the mass murder of the mentally ill,the intellectually disabled,the mass murder of Jews in the concetration camps.Can you imagine killing children in vast numbers and thinking,if they did, that they were alright with God.The SS who ran the concentration camps were the most evil army that ever existed and lets hope we never see their like again.

The Pope just doesn't get it!

In aworld in which the president has no understanding of or compassion for Americans, the Pope has no understanding of or compassion for Jews.

The Pope just doesn't get it!

In aworld in which the president has no understanding of or compassion for Americans, the Pope has no understanding of or compassion for Jews.

The Pope just doesn't get it. In a world which is close to shedding a president who has no understanding of or compassion for Americans we have a Pope who has no understanding of or compassion for Jews.

The important point of this article is that the current (German) Pope is exonerating the German people of their Nazi war crimes.

This is horrible (and deeply alarming) news.

ilove you your sestar

i lik go u s a bles i not bay many and

no i head all krasmas bit ilove all amarican i lliek lif in u s a bles

ان جميع القبط يكرهون المسلمين رغم حب المسلمين لهم لماذا way haed

Perhaps Carroll's next expose will be on the Jewish leadership of the Bolshevik revolution?

Or the horrors of the protestant reformation?

You anti-Catholic PoS.

I'll see you on the streets of Boston on day...

It may be despicable but it's not ignorant.

The Nazis were only able to muster such enthusaism for the annihilation of Europe's Jews because of the hatred of Jews ingrained by almost 2000 years of hatred taught and disseminated by Christianity.

This is what the Catholic Church simply will not accept. Similarly, the pope is saddened by paedophile behaviour and does not accept responsibility for the his Church's cover-up operation.

Read "Double Cross: The Code of the Catholic Church" by David Ranan for a remarkable analysis of the Church's inability to accept responsibility. I was unable to put it down.

If everyone would just grow up and accept the facts that very few people are 100% heterosexual and that a certain percentage of all discrete groupings will always play for the other team, then Christianity could get on with the really important theological questions; important questions like, "How many angels dancing on the head of a pin will be homosexual?"

Anybody interested in art?

One of several extant religious paintings by Hitler.

Frankly, although I'm no art critic, I rather liked this one.

Adolf Hitler: "Mother Mary with the Holy Child Jesus Christ", Oil/canvas, 1913

TO JAMES CARROLL:

You wrote, " Does it intend to restore the lethal Christian conviction that God’s only plan for Jews is baptism?"

Has it occurred to anyone that God's Plan is unfolding before our very eyes?

The Chosen People, the Jews, were chosen and formed by God so that God could become one of us.

Jesus, God-Incarnate, was a Jew and by the obedience of a few, Jesus was able to not only be born but to live long enough to fulfill what He became a human being in the first place for.

Being the Chosen People does not mean that the Jews are better, it just means that they are the Chosen People.

If people would take a look at reality, whether they believe it or not, they should be able to see that being a member of the Chosen People or being individually chosen by God or for that matter just being a human being, doesn't keep someone from being treated rather unnicely, to put it mildly.

Not only are the Jews the Chosen People but they have been ever since God first chose and formed them and they still are the Chosen People.

God has had His Plan since before creation and not only is His Plan unfolding before our very eyes but His Plan will come to Fruition.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Steve Chan observes that
"one if not the only responsibility of the Pope is to defend that institution."

Pathetically and tragically correct, Steve.

Some would hope that his first responsibility was to

defend truth, justice, and goodness.

Alas. that is left to Superman. And James Carroll. Who left the Catholic Priesthood because the authoritarian political nature of the organization
precluded the Church from doing so.

Not in a class by himself, unfortunately, but deserves a post.

Bishop Alois Hudal

Rome based, author of pro-nazi book and articles, orchestrator of clerical protection of nazis from prosecution.

Personal protector of men such as Stangl.

Appointed by Pius XII

Lengthier list to follow. I will return to Bishop Hudal late.

More Notworthy Catholic nazi leaders, torturers, etc.: Details on These Men to Follow (pending completion of lists)

Josef Mengele: Raised in a strict Roman Catholic family

Reinhardt Heydrich ("the blond beast," to those under him): third in command to Hitler, one of history's nastiest pieces of work

Heinrich Himmler (Hitler's Second in command): a devout Roman Catholic, head of the SS, oversaw Eastern Death Camps.

Joseph Goebbels: groomed for the priesthood. Minister of propaganda

Julius Streicher

Adolph Eichman

Rudolf Hoess

Fritz Thyssen

Franz Stangl

Kurt Christmann

Walter Rauff

Klaus Barbie

Dear Mr. Sabbagh,

> All over Europe, especially in Poland, devout,
> practicing Catholics were Hitler's willing
> helpers.

> Schindler's List told the story pretty well by
> recreating the roundups in Polish cities: most of
> the bystanders were only too happy to see the Jews
> get hauled away -- so they could take over the
> nice apartments and get their hands on anything
> the Jews were unable to carry away with them...
> Not a peep from the pope.

I cannot understand how those Catholics could rationalize their behaviour, considering that they were comitting sins.

I read Professor Goldhagen's book "Hitler's willing Executioners". The book described the anger of the german population towards the jews, but I could not follow the reeason behind it.
One must not hate. It's supposed to be one's goal as a Catholic not to hate anybody.

This also makes the actions of Pope Pius XII and the Vatican so hard for me to understand.

A Skeletal List of Top Catholic Nazi Leaders

The following is a skeletal list of Roman Catholic nazi leaders, persons who were baptized, raised as Catholics, whose families had been Catholic from time immorial.

These were Catholic nationals who led crusades agains the Jewish nationals of their own countries, and Jewish nationals of other countries. I have omitted Mussolini; I will return to him down the line.

You will sadly note what four of these men have in common.

Top Catholic nazi leaders: A Skeletal List

Austria : Engelbert Dollfuss
Belgium : Leon Degrelle
Croatia : Ante Pavelic1
Bohemia-Moravia : Emil Hacha
Germany : Adolf Hitler
Hungary : Miklos Horthy
Portugal : Antonio Salazar
Ruthenia : Fr. Augustin Voloshin
Slovakia : Fr. Josef Tiso
Slovakia : Fr. Andrei Hlinka
Spain : Francisco Franco
Sudetenland : Konrad Henlein
Vichy-France : Pierre Laval
Vichy-France : Henry Petain
Yugoslavia : Fr. Anton Koroshec

Dear faceit:

> Since when did the responsibility of the
> holocaust fall on the Catholics????
> Germany was protestant, the Vatican is in Rome,
> 800,000 jews were saved by monasteries, Hitler
> also sought to destroy the Church etc. etc. etc.

Being a german who recently chose to become a catholic myself (I was baptized on Easter Night a month ago - and I feel good about it!), and living in Cologne I maust say that the Rhineland never was protestant except for a few villages on the outskirts.

But the catholic faith is not as important in this matter. what's important is that the majority of Germans were christians.

I believe that the the preachings of the Jews as "christ-killers" made it easier to see "The Jews" as a single group and think of them as villains. At least on a sub-concious level.

More importantly Jews were seen as the people in power, who controlled the finace-sector, banks, large enterprises etc. The were looked at as crooks stealing from the little man, the hard-working German citizen.

This was of course not true, but apparently people believed that.
And the catholic church at the time did not do anything to ease that sentiment.

I am still filled with shame because of the crimes committed by my ancestors. My generation and those that come after me must ensure that such crimes will never again be committed by my people.

I thank God for the wise decisions of the second Vatican Council. I hope and pray that our Catholic Church will continue in the spirit of it and will attempt to see at least all monotheist religions as equal attempts to honour and follow the will of our God allmighty.

All over Europe, especially in Poland, devout, practicing Catholics were Hitler's willing helpers.

Schindler's List told the story pretty well by recreating the roundups in Polish cities: most of the bystanders were only too happy to see the Jews get hauled away -- so they could take over the nice apartments and get their hands on anything the Jews were unable to carry away with them...Not a peep from the pope.

Jihadist,

Hmmm, still "obfusing" I see using the pope now to distract from the major global religious issue, i.e. the continued blood feud between the Muslim Sunnis and Shiites. As noted previously:

1. Iraq, Sunni minority, Shiite majority, 24/7 blood letting, 4000 American soldiers dead, 90,000 Iraqi civilians, dead.

2. Iran, Shiite theocracy, 24/7 support of global terror.

3. OBL, Sunni/"Wannabee" madman, 24/7 support of global terror.

Fill in the answers below:

Hamas, Sunni or Shiite??

Fatah, Sunni or Shiite??

Pakistan, Sunni or Shiite? Which group assassinated Bhutto??

Malaysia, nearing a Sunni theocracy?

Bahrain, Sunni or Shiite???

Phillipines, Sunni or Shiite???

Taliban, Sunni or Shiite???

Somalia, Sunni or Shiite???

And it could all be solved by simply deflawing the koran!!!!!!

Read Goldhagen's "A Moral Reckoning." Rome committed the Holocaust using Fifth Column-financed Nazis as catspaw.

Carroll's article was a nice commercial for his product - paid for by the Washington Post!
Jesus commanded the apostles to baptize the entire world (for example Matthew 28:19), and, since the Jews are included in that group, He indirectly commanded the apostles to baptize the Jews, too.
The Catholic Church has apologized repeatedly for its woeful contribution to anti-semitism. But since Carroll, at least with his current product, has a financial interest in continuing the Holocaust-blame-game, he again asks for the Church through Benedict to pronounce the same mea-culpa already said by his predecessor, John-Paul II.
How unoriginal!

Thehearandnow:

Getting a bit hysterical are we? Did you really think you were the only person capable of posting lists?

Did you think that the Nazis were Buddhists? Did you think that there was no connection between their religion and nazism?

That view was discarded long, long ago, before Carroll, long before.

What I'm posting are facts, just facts. So take a valium or a drink. I haven't even begun.

Cal:

How can you presume to know my political views from my question? Was that some sort of divine revelation? Is it not possible for a political conservative to see the illogic of your statement? Who said anything about "choice for an all male clergy"? Do you frequently invent false dichotomies so it's easier to argue against them?

I'll spell it out for you this time.

You said: "As for human rights, the idea that someone has a right to impose their ideas or agenda (radical feminism, homosexuality) on a private faith or people is ridiculous, to say the least."

I gave an example of a privately held religious belief upon which our society would rightly impose its human rights agenda. I can furnish others if you haven't been keeping up on the news out of West Texas and Wisconsin lately. You seem to think that our society's right to do so is "ridiculous". Are you standing by your statement, or are you going to run....oh wait a second...you *have* run off! Why am I not surprised?

---------

"Censorship" Theory #238,897

The nearest I can reckon is that the editors have imposed some kind of "number of posts/frequency of posts/length of post" limit. I seem to be good for about 2 per day or so. I continue to think it has nothing to do with content.

Are you based in Israel, Ilan (observer2)?

Do you get paid for this guilt/hate mongering?

Honest questions...for someone who is always on the offensive.

Observer (Ilan),

Just because they were born as Catholics does not mean they were practicing Catholics at the time.

Just look at American Catholics 20 percent are non-practicing - no such thing as a "cultural catholic" either. Sorry to disappoint you.

To trying pin the holocaust on Catholics is despicable and ignorant. Take your anti-Catholic, ethnocentric hate somewhere else.

I suppose you also blame Communism on the Jews? Marx, Trotsky, Iron Lazar etc. al?

Odd, what gets through and what doesn't. Oh well, that last one will do, although the blocked post was more civil. Perhaps, that's the key. After all, incivility does reign at WaPo.

Although...that post did include the Vatican, did use the C o n c o r d__ word.

Preview of Coming Attractions

A glance back at some Nazis of interest to those who post here: Rommel (Protestant), Adolf Eichman (Catholic), Goebels (Catholic), Alfred Rosenberg (Catholic), whose "philosophy" the several incarnations of thehereand now is so fond of....

In time, even old Adolf, his Catholic co-religionist, realized he was a moron. NOt so thehereandnow.

All of them baptized and raised as Catholics except for Rommel, the Protestant. All of the Catholics were from Catholic families who had been Catholic from time immemorial. Otherwise, that is, unless they had converted to something acceptable to their (generically) Christian Nazi co-religionists, they would have been slaughtered.

Since when did the responsibility of the holocaust fall on the Catholics????

Germany was protestant, the Vatican is in Rome, 800,000 jews were saved by monasteries, Hitler also sought to destroy the Church etc. etc. etc.

Where are the calls for guilt for the communist atrocities (100 million)???? Would you put them on one group?

Hypocrites...

A sense of sadness filled me as I read the article. However, isn't it a bit naive to expect this Pope, a German and a Christian, would confess the sins of HIS Church? The crimes of Nazi Germany, and by extension, the Germans, are easy to condemn becaues they lost the war. But the Catholic Church? They are still prospering and one if not the only responsibility of the Pope is to defend that institution.

A sense of sadness filled me as I read the article. However, isn't it a bit naive to expect this Pope, a German and a Christian, would confess the sins of HIS Church? The crimes of Nazi Germany, and by extension, the Germans, are easy to condemn becaues they lost the war. But the Catholic Church? They are still prospering and one if not the only responsibility of the Pope is to defend that institution.

Surely, this is the most unpredictable and inept censoring and blocking on the web.

I give up!!

Who in the world decides which comments will be "held" and according to what standards??

With all the scurrilous garbage and personal attacks I see posted here, what could Ilan possibly have said that was so bad? You allow lengthy and repetitive cut-and-pastes, you allow calumny aimed at entire religious and social communities, but Ilan (and myself on other threads) is somehow unallowable???

Let's see if this one gets held.

Barbara L is a walking testament to the rotten fruits of ethnocentrism and tribalism!

Neal writes: "So then, I assume that if Aztecs opened a temple down the street tomorrow you'd be OK with human sacrifice?"

Really, Neal...are you comparing the choice for an all male clergy to human sacrifice?

Honestly...leftist on here need to get a grip!

As for Barb,

"Bottom line: the Catholics have too much power in this country and everywhere else."

You, my dear, are the bigot and isn't it funny that you use a canard to slander Catholics that has been leveled against the Jews?

Ironic, I would say.

Finally, On Faith has really become a trashy blog...Adios....

Sone advice for Catholics: Go to Concordat Watch. Just type it in the address bar and go.

This will guid you to delightful reading matter. You can refresh yourself on the Pope's concordat with the Catholic Hitler. Then read the 1993 Concordat with the Ivory Coast, one of the poorest countries on the face of the earth, and look at what the Concordat is for.

Read the Concordat with Israel, one of my all-time favorites. By the way, when do you "Catholics" and your Vatican plan to start donating money to keep up and protect your holy sites, which cost Israel Jewish lives and dollars which they badly need?

Any plans to help out with the care of Palestinian Christians, who somehow keep fleeing to Israel, which takes them.

There is nothing and I do mean nothing the Vatican can do or say to make up for what it did and did not do during the Holocaust. May God have mercy on its many souls.

For those who are survivors, the full release of its Holocaust documents demanded by Jews, Protestants, and, yes, Catholics would be salutary. That is about it.

As for the rest of you bigots, I need say nothing. In the words of your Son of God, you have said it, you have said it yourselves.

Bottom line: the Catholics have too much power in this country and everywhere else.

Cal wrote:

--"As for human rights, the idea that someone has a right to impose their ideas or agenda (radical feminism, homosexuality) on a private faith or people is ridiculous, to say the least."

So then, I assume that if Aztecs opened a temple down the street tomorrow you'd be OK with human sacrifice?

Rommel's disgusting post,
"what is this even about"
shows either an appalling ignorance of the Christian persecution of Jews over 2 millenia,
or a willful denial of that same history.

James Carroll is a practicing Catholic who decries bigotry and injustice wherever he sees it.

Rommel seems to support it.

What on earth is this article even about? I don't recall the first thing about the Pope's visit even involving Jews, other than his meetings with religious leaders from other faiths in the hopes of building an ecumenical dialogue. Which, by the way, I don't really see Jewish or Muslim leaders ever make an effort to pursue.

I sometimes laugh when I hear conspiracy theories about how Jews control the media. But after seeing an article like this, I really begin to wonder.

Don't worry, Arnie -

One day all religious expression will be banded as "hate speech," and forums like this, as well.

We are headed down that slippery slop so be careful what you wish for...

Oh please, do we have to hear about the Holocaust again? Hasn't anyone figured out this is not the only war there ever was in history where people en mass died? It is like beating a dead dog already.

Jihadist,

Good strong post. One of your best. Apparently Cal can't comprehend, and others will follow in his benighted footsteps. Keep up the wisdom, friend. I salute you from America.

Arminius

Nice personal interpretation of the gospels, Candide.

You can 30,000 protestant sects - not to mention the Jews - have their own interpretations.

Did you read this "truth" from Elaine Pagels? Or Chris Hitchens? Or Eckhart Tolle?

Jihad states: "One presumes then, as he sought to speak on human rights abuses in the world, we now can all look at human rights abuses within his commonwealth and organisation, including on the Holocaust and pedophilia cases, non-recognition of gays and women in the clergy."

Very confusing argument here, Jihad.

The "papal state" only comprises the tiny Vatican City, NOT the entirety of the global religion.

As for human rights, the idea that someone has a right to impose their ideas or agenda (radical feminism, homosexuality) on a private faith or people is ridiculous, to say the least.

It is called freedom of religion, which doesn't exists in many Muslim countries, by the way.

Also, gays are not discriminated against as people - it is the sexual practices that are condemned as sinful (just as they are with non-married heterosexuals) however, they are accepted as people who can also adhere to the teachings of the Church if they wish to do so.

The Church believes in non-subjective truths that are essential to their faith - to attack these as human rights issues is dishonest.

The sins of the Catholic Church (and the other Christian churches) did not begin just yesterday. Almost 2000 years ago they began to push those who knew Jesus the most out of the Christian community, the Jewish Christians who had been led by James of Jerusalem, the brother of Jesus. These earliest Christians did not believe in Jesus' divinity; they believed he was a prophet sent by God in a decisive time in Jewish history. The Jesus who rose from the dead and saves us by his blood and is the son of God never existed. The real Jesus was an apocalyptic prophet. The Catholic Church, with Paul's example before it, created an imaginary Jesus and an imaginary religion. Benedict, nice man that he is, cannot repudiate this.

Mr. James Caroll,

Thank you for your essay.

You concluded : "Does it (the Pope) intend to restore the lethal Christian conviction that God’s only plan for Jews is baptism?"

Perhaps we non-Catholics should also look at the Pope as a head of state and not just a religious/spiritual leader. He is both. That made the Pope unique among all heads of states and heads of religious organisations.

As a spiritual/religious leader, it is, fundamentally, not for me as a non-Catholic to question on the internal affairs of the Church never mind the Pope now calls for the internationally community to be engaged in human rights. One presumes then, as he sought to speak on human rights abuses in the world, we now can all look at human rights abuses within his commonwealth and organisation, including on the Holocaust and pedophilia cases, non-recognition of gays and women in the clergy. One would presume that since he may look askance at "cafetaria Catholics", perhaps he would not take a "cafetaria" approach on human rights.

One would also presume that the Pope, as head of state, would expect others to expect that he would act in a statesmanlike manner in not alienating other commonwealths of believers, including Buddhists, Jews, Muslims and other Christian denominations with remarks one would expect from a warped free-lance non-bona fide extremist imam in the mosques of London or Lahore. Certainly not from a head of state of the Catholic commonwealth, and the acknowledged and designated spiritual/religious leader of over a billion Catholics.

On the Holocaust, perhaps the Pope should avoid being in the category of another, not a head of state but a head of government, the President of Iran, a Holocaust denier. One can't forgive a secular head of state or head or government for unseemly statements on race and religion. One can't forgive a religious leader for his unbecoming statements on race and religion. How can one expect to be less when controversial statements are made by a head of state who is also head of the biggest organised and centralised religion in the world and remembering the fact that he is also the supreme authority of it?

I hope lay Catholics will understand why some non-Catholics are rather irate with this Pope. Not for what he said and do within his Church, (though many do seem to be on the basis of equal justice), but how he consider and regard others not of his faith. It was not very statesmanlike.

When non-Catholics expressed anger and dismay at Pope Benedict 16 for what he said or would not say, do and would not do, it is the same as foreigners expressing anger and dismay at President Bush over his policies towards them and not against the American people. The same for the Pope. Against him, but not Catholics.

We are all appalled and dismayed by our respective secular and religious leaders by what they say and do or would not say and do. We are questioning the said person, not the whole commonwealth of peoples of a country or belief. The standards set for the Pope is higher as he also provides moral, ethical and values guidance and examples - for his Church and as the premier representative and advocate of his faith in the world.

Thank you and regards

"J"

Catholicism has nothing to do with Christianity, except that it claims to be Christian.

The Roman Catholic Church is drenched in the blood of thousands of Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Perhaps worse yet, it has led countless millions into perdition.

Jesus never killed anyone, neither did he advocate killing anyone, nor did he sanction killing anyone. He laid down his life rather than kill and commanded his disciples to follow his example. A Christian, by definition, follows the example of Jesus Christ.

Simply believing that JC was the Son of God avails nothing. The devils believe and tremble.

Most of the Nazis that escaped with the help of the Catholic Church after WWII are probably dead. Looks like the rest of them found this blog.

If I'm not mistaken, Pope JP2 apologized for Christian failures toward the Jews, particularly those of the Catholic Church.

Americana writes: "Benedict is an absolute religious oligarch. His agenda is to preserve his wealthy and powerful church, by any means necessary."

IF you mean "wealthy" as in a wealth art and architecture, and charity and love, and or wealth of faith....then you are correct.

However, your conspiratorial rant is simply an attempt to slander - although it does have faults (ie run by humans) - the LARGEST charity and food relief organization in the world.

Grow up, honestly.

OK - Neal, we get it....you hate the Catholic Church...now, get a life.

As for making light of communism, a simple comparison to the Nazi death totals and you can see that the Communists had much higher numbers.

How many million in Russia? Cambodia? China? Ukraine?

Ratzinger wringing his holy hands about the Holocaust? Just how many collaborationist/Nazi priests were excommunicated by The Holy Mother Chruch? Zero. They were more interested in important matters, such as masturbation.

people- people- people-

its not the past that should occupy your attention.

its the future that is bearing down on the western world. how many freedoms must be taken away before you wake up?

The fact is...Hitler used the Jewish-inspired Bolshevik taveover in Russia as a pretext for his own sinister program- so in a way- it's almost as if "karma" saw to it that equilibrium be re-established in Germany for the crimes of the Soviet nomenklatura.

thehereandnow:

Is it just my imagination or is the pope offering special indulgences this week for using obfuscation in defense of the faith?

Nothing personal, but I don't apologize for not addressing red herrings, though, I suppose, even irrelevant issues are a huge improvement over just
reflexively accusing me of inciting hatred for merely referencing a Catholic teaching document that seemed germane to Mr. Carroll's article.

I am curious though, in that the Catholic Church claims to be guided perpetually and intimately by an omnipotent Holy Spirit, how can you now also claim that the article I cited was "misguided" if it was, ostensibly, the cumulative product of 1,910 years worth of such guidance? If that's really the best the Holy Spirit can do, what good is it?

With all due respect, it seems pitiable, really, that apologists for a religion that claims to be the beneficiary of divine inspiration are reduced to arguing, in effect, "Hey, we're no worse than commies!" Good luck with that though.

Everyone wants to be the victim, nobody is ever willing to admit that they're the perpetrator. Denial is the art of blaming your own perpetrations on someone else. When denial becomes a political movement, it requires an official scapegoat: jews, liberals, communists, imperialists, immigrants, holocaust "cultists", gays, neo-pagans, quakers and (historically but not at the present) catholics. Everybody has had their time as the target. And all that anyone has learned from it is to point their finger at someone else.

Benedict is an absolute religious oligarch. His agenda is to preserve his wealthy and powerful church, by any means necessary. Denial and scapegoating are the means that he is using, i.e. Blame the Pagans not the Christians. Pity the Catholics not the Jews. Poor Germans were misled. John XXIII he is not.

Thank you Mr. Carroll for this observant and enlightening commentary.

James Carroll, as usual, is correct. I'm one Catholic, Irish variety, who is suspicious of Pope Benedict and his German heritage. It pains me to see the Catholic Church return to a pre-Vatican II mentality under his regime. I'm fed up with the authoritarianism that prevails in today's church as much as I am with the Church's built-in "stay the course" motivation for preserving the institution rather than the Gospel.

Yet another bit of whining from ((( HOLOCAUST ))) cultists .........

when the pope spoke of the root of the christian church i think you don't understand. the root started with jews -hitler was destroying jews --get it ?? you seem to have a deep hatred for christian . you don't seem to mention the pre-constantine times when christians were banned from practicing and were killed for there beliefs . the holocaust was dispictable , rhwanda was dispictable, dafur is dispictable , gaza is dispictable . israel is creating a holocaust in gaza -why can't we all learn from the past and lose the hatred . instead of blaming christians why not try to improve relations with israel and the palistinian people -too many inocent people are being killed

James Carroll, as usual, is correct. I'm one Catholic, Irish variety, who is suspicious of Pope Benedict and his German heritage. It pains me to see the Catholic Church return to a pre-Vatican II mentality under his regime. I'm fed up with the authoritarianism that prevails in today's church as much as I am with the Church's built-in "stay the course" motivation for preserving the institution rather than the Gospel.

Mr. Carroll - many Catholics today work for common fellowship with our brothers and sisters - Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, and work for common fellowship within the Christian community with Baptists, Latter Day Saints, Anglicans, and many more. We work in environments where there is diversity not only of faiths but cultures as well. THAT is what Christ message was - "Love one another." The Pope for us is a spiritual leader, not divine, he is human. He is perfectly human, in other words imperfect. In all of my years I have heard nothing but love and respect for those of other faiths from my bishops, pastors, deacons, nuns. Many Catholics these says would like to open things up a bit - roles of women in particular.

I cannot imagine being a young person under Nazi Germany, I cannot imagine being made to serve a regime that was the epitome of evil and absolute power corruption. I don't fault anyone who grew up in that environment either, and who had no say over whether they had to serve the regime or not. God of course holds anyone accountable for crimes they committed under that hideous regime.

I think people really need to move on and look for common good, common goals, and build on those common values, and celebrate the differences. Otherwise one comes across as bitter and perhaps a bit naive.

I reject this and every pope for thinking they are closer to G-d than me. Where do Catholics get off thinking they are better than me? From the Church? From the Vatican? From the New Testament. I will not condone this pope as a messanger of G0d a spiritual leader who faithfully counsels his flock to admire Christ but who wraps himself in a veil of hate. He decided he was not going to talk about his personal Nazi attire as Brown Shirt, as a German Nazi youth. How convenient he left this group. He hasn't left it at all. He is practicing politics and when you unwrap the stories written by Jews of a Jew you have nothing more than a political party willing to do whatever it takes to gain power. That is Christianity to me. A killing machine. Now for individuals who find faith as I do in some greater power there is no need for Christianity. All the arguments over a spiritual leader are merely diatribes of intellectualism. He was a Nazi not merely someone who grew up during Nazism.

This from today's internet @ CNN:

"My own years as a teenager were marred by a sinister regime that thought it had all the answers," he told the crowd at St. Joseph's Seminary in Yonkers.

"Its influence grew, infiltrating schools and civic bodies as well as politics and even religion before it was fully recognized for the monster it was," the pope said.

that quote from this pope is nothing more than a definition of the Church. Who are we kidding?

Wapo is fit for the bottom of the birdcage..

They have their "On Faith" forum spend a week trying to dismantle the Pope.

Then they fail to cover Ben Stein's movie EXPELLED which has put atheists in the vapors with their panties in a bunch.

Here's the only mention of the movie I could find in an entertainment open forum-

"Herndon, Va.: Mr.T: the "Ben Stein" movie -- "Expelled"(?) For an interesting story on it, go to the Skeptic Society's Web site -- Skeptic-- the link is on the "front page." Among other revelations -- the audience shown during Stein's lecture at Pepperdine University is all invited extras -- hardly a student in the bunch.

Desson Thomson: Interesting. I'll certainly pass that along!"

Like Pepperdine students would want to end their career before they graduate?? This gem of information validates the movie's premise. There is fear among scientists to freely inquire and a debilitating fear of Intelligent Design.

Wapo is closed to what is happening in the world..

EXPELLED the movie:

Its worth the price of admission to see Ben Stein and Richard Dawkins chat about ID (Intelligent Design) near the end of the film.

I don't know what the writer wants? Is he trying to provoke some sort of something? Is he trying to call attention to himself? I bet he is not a Christian more so a Catholic.

Dan Brown has nothing on the conspiracy minded bigots on these boards who think Catholics hoard gold, systematically torture children and seek to control the world...

Wait, was that Dan Brown or the "protocol of zion?"

...very similar stereotypes...

As they say, anti-Catholic speech is the only bigotry allowed in our PC society - and that is the way the Washington Post hopes to keep it.

Like other authoritarian institutions, the Catholic Church admits responsibility for its atrocities only when forced to, or when it occasionally happens that liberals in the church acquire power. The Church's brief liberal moment under John XXIII is long gone. Ratzinger is firmly in the church's long, toxic tradition of punishing those it disagrees with and hiding the evidence.

CCNL writes in his "update":

6. The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls. Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords and the Annapolis Peace Conference is at least somewhat successful.

Does this mean the Jews and the Muslims? The Israelis (Jews, Muslims, Christians, et al) and Palestinians (Muslim and Christian, who have not fled into Israel or elsewhere)?

What can you expect from an old man wearing a woman's long dress who promises eternal Heaven in exchange for a donation? Who feeds symbolic body and and blood of Christ to his suckers?

A good many Germans who murdered Jews (and Russians and Poles and Czechs and gypsies and Serbs and Croats, ad infinitum) in WWII were Catholics, and a good many others were Protestants. Many others were simply godless.

Since then, a good many Jews - not all - have turned those murders to their own benefit by painting themselves as perpetual victims and by blackmailing the rest of the world to get what they wanted. "Never again" is their slogan, though what they really mean is "never us again." I'd compare their walling in of the Palestinians with Germans' walling in the Jews of Warsaw, but I'd be accused of virulent anti-Semitism for suggesting that, so I won't.

God may have given Israel to the Jews, but apparently in the guise of Allah he also gave it to the Muslims. He's got a great sense of humor. For all I know, the Nazis probably thought he intended that land for the Master Race, and earlier Popes certainly thought he wanted the Crusaders to have it, their Roman ancestors having staked out a previous claim. If there were oil there, undoubtedly God would have wanted America to have the place.

So, a pox on the Pope, and on the Chief Rabbi, and on the Grand Mufti, and on James Carroll, too.

Wow! Just getting back to this one.

So Ilan, and other posters, attack and slander another people and religion and then are surprised at the response?

Always the victim mentality, I see.

You - Ilan, et al - would do well to drop the righteousness and look at your own stereotypes and hateful words.

An update (or how we are or how we have spent USA taxpayers’ money to eliminate global terror and aggression)

A Partial and Rather Recent Body Count:

1) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto

2a) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

2b) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, 4000 US troops and 82,109 – 89,605 Iraqi civilians iraqbodycount.org/

3) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

4) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

5) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

6) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

7) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

Other elements of our War on Terror:

1. Saddam, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted. Saddam's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes.

2. Iran is being been contained. (beside containing the Sunni-Shiite civil war in Baghdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region.)

3. Libya has become almost civil. Apparently this new reality from an Islamic country has upset OBL and his “crazies” as they recently threatened Libya. OBL sure is a disgrace to the world especially the Moslem world!!!

4. North Korea is still uncivil but is contained. With the opening up of rail traffic between North and South Korea after 50 years and with the assistance of the US Navy in retrieving NK ships and personnel, a fresh sense of civility is afoot. One of the most eminent US cultural institutions, the New York Philharmonic Orchestra, has performed a landmark concert in North Korea.
The concert included music by Western composers and a Korean folk song, and was broadcast live on local television.

Unfortunately, North Korea’s apparent move toward peace did not last long as they fired test missiles last week and threatened South Korea with military action this week.
5. Northern Ireland is finally at peace.

6. The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls. Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords and the Annapolis Peace Conference is at least somewhat successful.

7. Bin Laden has been cornered under a rock in Western Pakistan since 9/11.

8. Fanatical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace. Ditto for a wall between Afghahistan and Pakistan.

9.Timothy McVeigh was executed. Terry Nichols will follow soon.

10. Eric Rudolph is spending three life terms in prison with no parole.

11. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Kaczynski, the "nuns" from Rwanda, and the KKK were all dealt with and either eliminated themselves or are being punished.

12. Islamic Sudan, Darfur and Somalia are still terror hot spots.

13. Although a bit dated, the terror and torture of Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo and Kuwait were ended by the proper application of the military forces of the USA and her freedom-loving friends.

14. And of course the bloody terror brought about the Japanese, Nazis and Communists was with great difficulty eliminated by the good guys.
Jesus like many was in the right place at the right time. There was a lot of economic-driven assistance and "necessary accessories" without which Jesus would have been just another forgotten Jewish radical.

Ilan writes to Bolshevism 101, thehereandnow, and his/her other pseudonymous identities:

"Yirtze HaShem, you will heal."

DEAR ILAN,

B'ezrat HaShem, not only with respect to this person, but to other (consistently named) posters of this one's ilk, who appear not only on this blog, but all over the world.

In the interim, at least via the net, one can only continue to let them know who they are. It is not only that they are haters and hateful. They are dangerous, not only to us, but to the world.

The Catholics, too, believe in free will. This person has chosen his/her path. B'ezrat HaShem, he or she will leave it. In the meantime, one can neither ignore travelers such as this nor spend one's life posting to them, as you know. It is good that you have ended your attempt to dialogue with this person.

You are a good, good man, Ilan. From a sister non-observant, Chag Pesach Sameach to you and your family.

Barbara

I will remind Ilan, that all of the response below was an example and in response to previous a poster's attempt (and the author's) to slander/stereotype a visit by the pope in the name of peace and friendship.

Anti cathoic stereotypes (including slander of the Church) - are just as bad as anti-jewish stereotypes and slander.

Do not look to cast guilt, attend to your own sins and build bridges from humility.

Peace be with you, as well.

To Bolshevism 101, Whomever

Sorry, I'm a bit distracted. My wife pointed out that Easter has passed. Still, Yirtze Hashem, you will heal.

That is all one can say.

Bolshevism 101, Whomever:

"Peer review"?

This is ridicuous. I cannot believe I wasted time trying to post anything remotely informative to you, that is to say, to the pseudonymic self-divisions in which your sickness has culminated, your fragmented self, your "peers."

Only HaShem can say what sickness has caused you to become so blind, intransigent, deceitful, what has hardened your heart with hate.

If, in fact, you are a Catholic, then I wish you a Happy Easter, a healing Easter. There is nothing more I can say to or do for you. Yirtze HaShem, you will heal.

Ilan - please grow up...bevakasha!

Just because some people come to similar conclusions independently does not mean they are "in cahoots" to get
you. It's called peer review!

Anonymous, Thehereandnow, Neo-Con 101, Bolshevism 101, Speed123, and B12

If I have missed any of your other pseudonyms, please accept my apologies.

I am being repeatedly blocked in trying to post the information I promised. It will take several posts, and I have tried different combinations.

Since my comments have been held, they will never be posted, and I don't have the time to play with revisions right now.

The information will come, although it is not intended for you. I hold out littele hope for you. Rather, it is meant for those for whom a different way of thinking is still possible.

PAT: those who live in glass houses should not throw stones

Thehereandnow:

You are hanging yourself. Surely, there is something else you could be doing now.

Where is their guilt??

Where is their apology??

Jewish policy makers at the TOP of the neoconservative movement:

Leo Strauss
Norman Podhoretz
John Podhoretz
William Kristol
Irving Kristol
Douglas Fieth
Wolfowitz
Richard Pearle
Abrhams
Wurmser

New pundits:

Scooter Libby
Brooks
Satfire
Freidman
Cohen
Judith Miller
Hitchens
Peretz

Etc etc etc

Could go on all day about Jewish neoconservatives (many of whom happen to be former trotskyites) and PNAC and their influence in directing the invasion of Iraq.

Result= close to 1 million (and counting) innocent men women and children killed.

Thehereandnow writes:

"Ilan seems unable to accept the criticisms and conjectures that Neal levels at other groups when they are used against his own."

Neal smoked Thehereandnow out, unintentionally and unwittingly, I believe, since he did not post to him or her.

I believe Ilan has been witting and intentional all along in posting. Trying to smoke them out, eh? That is, the ones who didn't self-identify.

Too bad for Thehereandnow and all the other bigots. Worse for those of us aren't bigots.

For details on Jewish involvement in the Bolshevik movement- read VICTOR SLEZKINE'S "THE JEWISH CENTURY" -available on Amazon and also- IF YOU CAN FIND IT-Alexander Solzhenitsyn's "TWO HUNDRED YEARS TOGETHER"- which for some unknow reason has been out for several years but has yet to be translated into English- even though it's been out for years in French, German, Italian- and of course Russian.

If you can read French or German- the latter is available from Amazon France and Amazon Deutschland.

Thehereandnow:

I don't know where to begin responding to you, and, frankly, I'm not really responding to you at all.

But since you begin with the Talmud, in which you are clearly well versed, I shall quote, variously from the NT, the current Catechism of the Catholic Church (Urbi et Orbi Communications, the writings of the saints, etc.

From thence, I shall move on to membership in the Bolshevik Party, to Fascist parties of the period. In this discussion , I shall comment on Lenin (Russian Orthodox) sent by the Nazis (Hitler--Catholic, et al) back to Russia to topple the Czar and keep Russia out of the War.

I shall discuss Lenin's murder of Trotsky (who opposed dictatorship, was far to Lenin's left.) I will proceed to Communist Parties, beginning Lenin (Russian Orthodox) proceeding to Stalin (Russian Orthodox). With the Stalin regime I will address the Doctors Plot and other atrocities many directed against his co-religionists. Communist, then, and fascist regimes from the beginnings to the present will be addressed.

Leaders (Catholic, Protestant, et al) of the American Conservative movements, up to the present Neo-con movement will be addressed. (I shall omit the handful of Hindu and Muslim neo-cons, since they do not figure in this discussion.

Stay tuned.

Ilan seems unable to accept the criticisms and conjectures that Neal levels at other groups when they are used against his own.

Neal takes a century old misguided passage on Jewish relations (repudiated by Vatican II, by the way) and uses it to try to associate Christianity with the holocaust.

Well, how is it different that using the language of Jewish supremacy found throughout the Talmud and applying that to the very high percentage (relative to population) of involvement in the radical wing and leadership of the original communists - the vanguard, if you will.

Read Mark Lilla's "the stillborn god" or Michael Burleigh's "sacred causes" for examples of disproportionate involvement in Bolshevism - especially in leadership positions. (not to mention the top of the vanguard: Marx and Trotsky)

Are you also going to tell me that modern neo conservatism was not influenced by Jewish intellectuals and bureaucrats? Shall I run down the list?

Time to stop calling for forced confessions of guilt from others when there is blood on ALL hands, in the historical sense.

Dear God, ThereandNow,

Do you have any idea of how racist you are? What high levels of involvement in Bolshevism? What were the percentages? Do you want me to post a list of all the Russian Orthodox, Catholic, et al who were involved in said movements?

The list would be thousands of pages long, thousands and thousands and thousands.

Your arguments are straight out of Mein Kamf. Sadly, it never occurred to me in reading your exchanges with Neal that you were an out and out racist.

How can anyone of any faith with any good will have a dialogue with you?

Neal writes:
"In my original post, I made reference to the Church's apparently bigoted opinions on Jews"

The Jewish people also hold "bigoted" views of gentiles - just read sections of the Talmud for examples....and there is a prayer of thanksgiving for not being born as such used (not once a year) but frequently by conservative Jews.

So if Neal wants to bring the failings of the Christians forward, he might also call for the failings of the Jews.

Does the the elitism found in the Talmud, used by all modern rabbis, influence the outlook of Jewish leaders? Did it influence the high levels of community involvement in Bolshevism?

Neal you are quite ethnocentric and one sided in your critique...perhaps it is you that should apologize.

thehereandnow wrote:

--"Neal, I see your point; however, in light of the days historic events between Jewish and Catholic leaders, perhaps you also see mine.

The comments were directed more to the author of the piece than you - or at least that is how I view them."

I can why you would want to view them that way.

In my original post, I made reference to the Church's apparently bigoted opinions on Jews and its continued justification of those opinions in an important Catholic teaching document written shortly before Joseph Ratzinger's birth and the rise of Nazi Germany. I implied that it wouldn't be unreasonable to conclude that such a document may have been instrumental in forming, and may still today inform, the pope's world view. You responded, solely, by directly accusing *me* of inciting hatred and chastising *me* for not jumping on the pope-mobile of hollow ecumenical sentimentality.

If there's a point in there somewhere that can be used to justify your vulgar reaction to *my* statement, you're going to have to do a much better job of communicating it. As it stands, you seem to saying that you were so swept up in the day's conciliatory proceedings that you simply couldn't pass up the opportunity to lob a highly inflammatory invective at an innocent bystander. That you continue to cling to some bogus justification for your reaction seems to speak to a conscience that the Church might characterize as "malformed".

If and when, however, you can drag yourself into making an actual apology, even if only within the confines of your own mind, consider it accepted.

I am not sure that the second Vatican council went as far as "affirmed the on-going validity of Jewish religion", but I have two questions :

1) Do you think the relation between the Jewish religion and the christian religion should be based on equality ?

2) If your answer to the previous question is "yes", do you think Jewish religious leaders should also make a statement affirming "the on-going validity of Christian religion" ?

The literature left by Martin Luther is a sobering reminder of how the Christians had viewed the Jews living in their midst. Mind you this is not the exception but the rule in those days. Martin Luther writes:

What then shall we Christians do with this damned, rejected race of Jews? Since they live among us and we know about their lying and blasphemy and cursing, we can not tolerate them if we do not wish to share in their lies, curses, and blasphemy. In this way we cannot quench the inextinguishable fire of divine rage nor convert the Jews. We must prayerfully and reverentially practice a merciful severity. Perhaps we may save a few from the fire and flames [of hell]. We must not seek vengeance. They are surely being punished a thousand times more than we might wish them. Let me give you my honest advice.

First, their synagogues should be set on fire, and whatever does not burn up should be covered or spread over with dirt so that no one may ever be able to see a cinder or stone of it. And this ought to be done for the honor of God and of Christianity in order that God may see that we are Christians, and that we have not wittingly tolerated or approved of such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of His Son and His Christians.

Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed. For they perpetrate the same things there that they do in their synagogues. For this reason they ought to be put under one roof or in a stable, like gypsies, in order that they may realize that they are not masters in our land, as they boast, but miserable captives, as they complain of incessantly before God with bitter wailing.

Thirdly, they should be deprived of their prayer-books and Talmuds in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught.

Fourthly, their rabbis must be forbidden under threat of death to teach any more...

Fifthly, passport and traveling privileges should be absolutely forbidden to the Jews. For they have no business in the rural districts since they are not nobles, nor officials, nor merchants, nor the like. Let them stay at home...If you princes and nobles do not close the road legally to such exploiters, then some troop ought to ride against them, for they will learn from this pamphlet what the Jews are and how to handle them and that they ought not to be protected. You ought not, you cannot protect them, unless in the eyes of God you want to share all their abomination...

To sum up, dear princes and nobles who have Jews in your domains, if this advice of mine does not suit you, then find a better one so that you and we may all be free of this insufferable devilish burden - the Jews...

Let the government deal with them in this respect, as I have suggested. But whether the government acts or not, let everyone at least be guided by his own conscience and form for himself a definition or image of a Jew. When you lay eyes on or think of a Jew you must say to yourself: Alas, that mouth which I there behold has cursed and execrated and maligned every Saturday my dear Lord Jesus Christ, who has redeemed me with his precious blood; in addition, it prayed and pleaded before God that I, my wife and children, and all Christians might be stabbed to death and perish miserably. And he himself would gladly do this if he were able, in order to appropriate our goods...

Such a desperate, thoroughly evil, poisonous, and devilish lot are these Jews, who for these fourteen hundred years have been and still are our plague, our pestilence, and our misfortune.

I have read and heard many stories about the Jews which agree with this judgment of Christ, namely, how they have poisoned wells, made assassinations, kidnapped children, as related before. I have heard that one Jew sent another Jew, and this by means of a Christian, a pot of blood, together with a barrel of wine, in which when drunk empty, a dead Jew was found. There are many other similar stories. For their kidnapping of children they have often been burned at the stake or banished (as we already heard). I am well aware that they deny all of this. However, it all coincides with the judgment of Christ which declares that they are venomous, bitter, vindictive, tricky serpents, assassins, and children of the devil, who sting and work harm stealthily wherever they cannot do it openly. For this reason, I would like to see them where there are no Christians. The Turks and other heathen do not tolerate what we Christians endure from these venomous serpents and young devils...next to the devil, a Christian has no more bitter and galling foe than a Jew. There is no other to whom we accord as many benefactions and from whom we suffer as much as we do from these base children of the devil, this brood of vipers.

Martin Luther from ‘On The Jews and Their Lies.’

But your [God's] judgment is right, justus es Dominie. Yes, so shall Jews, but no one else be punished, who held your word and miracles in contempt and ridiculed, insulted and damned it for such a long time without interruption, so that they will not fall, like other humans, heathens and all the others, into sin and death, not up in Hell, nor in the middle of Hell but in the pit of Hell, as one cannot fall deeper...

Even if they were punished in the most gruesome manner that the streets ran with their blood, that their dead would be counted, not in the hundred thousands, but in the millions, as happened under Vespasian in Jerusalem and for evil under Hadrian, still they must insist on being right even if after these 1,500 years they were in misery another 1,500 years, still God must be a liar and they must be correct. In sum, they are the devil's children, damned to Hell...

The Jews too got what they deserved. They had been called and elected to be God's mouth as Jeremiah says...Open your mouth wide and I will fill it; they however, kept tightly closed their muzzles, eyes, ears, nose, whole heart and all senses, so he polluted and squirted them so full that it oozes from them in all places and devil's filth comes from them.

Yes, that tastes good to them, into their hearts, they smack their lips like swine. That is how they want it. Call more: 'Crucify him, crucify him.' Scream more: 'His blood come upon us and our children.' (Matthew 27:25) I mean it came and found you...

Perhaps, one of the merciful Saints among us Christians may think I am behaving too crude and disdainfully against the poor, miserable Jews in that I deal with them so sarcastically and insulting. But, good God, I am much too mild in insulting such devils…
Martin Luther

Mr Mark:

What proof do you offer that the life of Jesus is "fictional"? Are you saying that Yeshua (Jesus) himself is fictional? Not that anything you said changes my opinion. On second thought, please do not reply --- only time will tell.

I'm neither a Christian nor a Jew but it seems to me that Christians who persecute Jews and others are at least being logically consistent. If you accept a religion that holds as a fundamental tenet that it represents the only path to the Divine and all who reject that path - more specifically, reject the gatekeeper, Jesus - are damned, then it hardly matters how the recalcitrants are treated here on earth and the persecution might even save a few souls by way of conversion. The fundamental problem lies with "my way or the highway" religions. This modern "dialogue" between Christianity and Judaism (or other religions) is a fatuous and necessarily insincere exercise from a theological point of view that can never bear fruit beyond an artificial and temporary detente. Glad I'm a Buddhist.

Posters who must hold such rigid discourse-

THINK OF THIS:

The little wheels have been spinning and spinning for quite a long time. At some point the Big Wheel will turn:

-Who is the bravest hero?

The answer is:

-He who turns his enemy into a friend..

If you can- you must..

Catholicism is slowly rooting out its ant-Jewish roots but significant problems remain and can be labeled in crises modes.

To wit:

1. The inappropriate conduct of many priests, the emotional stress on the victims and the resultant billion dollars in lawsuits.

2. The lack of talent in the priesthood.

3. The lack of Vatican response to the historic Jesus movement.

4. The Church's continuing cling to original sin and the resulting subsets of crazy ideas like limbo.

5. The denial of priesthood to women.

6. The restriction of priesthood to single men (unless you are former Episcopalian priests).

7. And the continued chain of Vatican "leadership" by old European white men.

Look here "Ironlazar", what is all this rubbish about "the complicity of ethnic groups"? Just because Stalin and some of his closest aides were from Georgia does not mean that all Georgians are responsible for his atrocities. The people of Georgia, and of the Caucasus region in general, were not exempt from Stalinist horrors. They suffered just like everyone else. To lay on them the blame for the millions who were killed under Stalinism is pure unmitigated racism, and a blood libel to boot.

Whenever a Catholic of good will like James Carroll writes about the shortcomings of the Church in the matter of the Jews a lot of people respond in the outraged self-righteousness typical of Bill Donohue of the Catholic League. They shout: what about non-Jewish victims, what about the Reds, what about the sins of the Jews, etc. Evidently the immensity of their Christian guilt is enormous but the impulse to confess and accept their sins is drowned out by their desire for a cheap vindication through self-defensiveness.

Common' Catholics! Grow up and smell the roses. Or should I say the crematory fires?

ALL Religion is bunk and this kakamameee hocus pocus and WHO is connected to some Supreme General and WHO is NOT is the laugh of all ages. When are you ppl going to out grow this non-sense?
But a very good article and i'm interested in seeing the Film.

Let's forget about the Vatican apologizing fully for its treatment of Jews and for antisemitism. When you have so much to be forgiven for it will never happen. Confession goes only so far. God, if there is a God, will have the last word. I shudder thinking what it will be, perhaps no God is really better.

public confessions of guilt and "guilt by association" are typical tactics of the former communists and the current left pc culture.

what of the 20 million killed in the soviet union?

james carroll, since you like to make portentous claim of guilt in complex historical periods/conflicts, how about some investigation into the origins of communism and the ethnic groups guilty of complicity in this ideology of hate

wont see a movie or book on this topic in our controlled press - it is always the nazis and the holocaust...

Neal, I see your point; however, in light of the days historic events between Jewish and Catholic leaders, perhaps you also see mine.

The comments were directed more to the author of the piece than you - or at least that is how I view them.

thehereandnow:

--"However, what was your purpose? To insight hatreds and divisions with a text that is a century old...

I could scroll through the Talmud or Koran to dig up foul language used against infidels or goy; however, to do so would be counter productive and infantile..."

It would also be irrelevant. We seem to have a basic difference in our understanding of how this blog thing works. I see it as an opportunity to comment, relevantly, on the writer's article, and you see it as an opportunity to accuse people you disagree with of inciting hatred.

You know, the Church used to employ *precisely* that same reasoning, back in the day, to claim that since heresy could be seen as a threat to the public peace and stability, it should, therefore, be violently suppressed. (You can find out all about it in the same source under "Albigensian Crusade".) When people start tossing around hate speech accusations, for merely criticizing a religion, it not only makes the study of history all the more necessary, but also, unfortunately, vitally important.

I know you'd like everyone to forget the past, or maybe not even have access to it, but those days are gone and you aren't some 12th century pontiff.

Thereandnow:

What is the Talmud? What is goy? And what have the Talmud, Qu'ran have to do with Neal's post?

An extremely well-written and informative essay. Raises a lot of good questions.

Neal states: "My post was topical and sourced. Deal with it."

However, what was your purpose? To insight hatreds and divisions with a text that is a century old...

I could scroll through the Talmud or Koran to dig up foul language used against infidels or goy; however, to do so would be counter productive and infantile...

thehereandnow:

I wasn't aware that this blog was only for people who want to reinforce each others' religious beliefs. Who died and made you pope?

My post was topical and sourced. Deal with it.

There and Now:

Stop lecturing people.

If you want people to let bygones be bygones, acknowledge the bygones, nad the yet to be bygones.

Get over it, and get over yourself.

There and now:

I don't understand you, literall. Kindly clarify.

Ilan,

Could you possibly be more ethnocentric and defensive?

Thanks for the post, Neal.

Neal,

Holding onto the past, are we? the good old days?

Get with the present and the dialogue between faiths or get out of the way...

The following is from one of my favorite sources, The New Advent Online Catholic Encyclopedia in an article entitled "Jews (as a Religion)", which can be found in the index. The online version was published around 1910, 25 years or so before the rise of Nazi Germany and, considering the Church's penchant for consistency, probably very similar to the one available to the young Herr Ratzinger. In that the On Faith editors seem to disapprove of any post much exceeding sound bite length, I could only quote the first two sentences of several very enlightening paragraphs from that article.

"The obligation of wearing a distinguishing badge was of course obnoxious to the Jews. At the same time, Church authorities deemed its injunction necessary to prevent effectively moral offences between Jews and Christian women."

--------------

Speed123:

Is there any published critic of the Catholic Church you *don't* regard as a bigot? To make it easier for you, name just one critic you consider less bigoted than the above referenced article appears to be.

--------------

(When I get blocked, I find it comforting to poke John and Sally's pictures in the eyes with the pointy bit of my cursor.)

Harold:

You will not make any Protestant converts from the Catholics who post here. The likelihood of your making Jewish converts is less.

Why continue with this Bible beltin?

Rabbi Arthur Schneier, the leader of the congregation, welcomed the pope, who was seated on a wooden chair to the left of the bimah, the raised platform, where the rabbi spoke from a lectern.

“In our lifetime, your holiness, both of us have experienced the ravages of war, the Holocaust, man’s inhumanity to man — and also tasted the joy of freedom.”

Rabbi, think how you addressed the pope as your holiness.
He is neither Isaac, Joseph, Aaron, or David.

Anon:

Scroll down: Here is CCNL on Moses. He posts this continually. He is a Christian, a "former" Catholic, with a Ph.D. in theology.

" Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt. "

Relects well on your group.

Ilan, way to be disrespectful.

Reflects well on your group....

CCNL:

Would that be Jesus, the water skier, of "New Testament" fame?

Yes, yes - and some people never forgive...

(and we all have something to be forgiven for in history)

Yes, yes, the Christians are always forgiving themselves.

DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND GET A LIFE! (THERE IS MORE TO LIFE THAN KEEPING SCORE. TRY BEING AS GRACIOUS AS YOU WOULD LIKE SOMEONE ELSE TO BE TOWARD YOU, WHEN YOU HAVE TO MAKE YOUR AMENDS (I'M SURE YOU HAVE MANY TO MAKE)). TRY LOOKING TOWARD OUR FUTURE, AND LET GO OF OUR PAST. WE CAN ALL LIST THE WRONGS THAT HAVE BEEN TO US. IT IS MUCH MORE PRODUCTIVE TO SAY "I FORGIVE YOU", AND MOVE ON.

Barbara L:
Speaking from a universal angle, no one needs to condemn Christian people. They are condemning themselves, every day, right here on this blog.

What did your parents teach you. do you teach your children and children's children to believe as your forefathers. Where does the one who is behind the pulpit lead you. Where is your Faith Hope and Love

right here on this blog
maybe your eyes will see that i lead in a different direction.

Much of what you have said is historically accurate. However, the thought that the Nazis ultimately wanted to destroy the Church is also historically true. You seem to find this incredulous. Hitler wrote in his diary that "The only man in Europe that he feared was the Pope because he was the only man in Europe to whom he could not give orders." The Allies new the plight of the Jews. They could have cared less. They were only interested in winning a war. The only world leader and organization to aid the Jews during WWII was Pius XII and the Church. According to the Israelis, Pius XII saved 888,000 Jews by opening all of the monasteries in Europe to the Jews, by buying the lives of 4,000 Jewish families living in the Vatican by turning over all of the gold bullion in the Vatican to the Nazi Governor General of Rome, and buying issuing hundreds of thousands of baptismal certificates to Jews, with the help of Spain, so that Jews could leave Europe. Israel planted 888,000 trees in Israel in honor of Pius XII. Golda Meir fondly eulogized Pius XII. The New York Times editorials five times cited him for his broadcasts and stand against the Nazis. Einstein wrote that "Before the rise of the Nazis in Germany, I had little regard for the Church. However, after I saw one German institution after another fall to the Nazis, the only institution in Germany left standing against the Nazis was the Church. For that, the Church has my undying admiration." Hindsight is always 20/20, especially if you don't have to make the decisions. The plight of the Jews, the Native Americans (and we have killed millions), slavery, genocide, and hundreds of other acts of inhumanity throughout the ages are all blots on the human race. But, when have there been enough "mea culpas"? I can't ever recall any one of the WWII Ally governments apologize for not helping the Jews during WWII. Why do journalists insist of focusing on what they think the Church should have done, or should do, instead of what the Church has done and is doing? The Church does more for the poor than any government or institution on the planet, including the United States government. Why don't journalists ever write about that fact? It is because BAD news sells and GOOD news doesn't. With all of the atrocities going on in our world right now, it's time to stop writing about the past and start doing something about the problems of the human race today. The Church is. Why can't you?

"The pope's meeting today - at the UN and with Jewish leaders - is a step forward to be welcomed, not an excuse to bring up old bias and hatreds..."

**Especially if, like Carrol, you are doing to just to sell books...

Shame on him.

The point is that ALL peoples have been accomplice to atrocities in history.

The pope's meeting today - at the UN and with Jewish leaders - is a step forward to be welcomed, not an excuse to bring up old bias and hatreds...

Peace

The Reality of the situation or in other words the Flaws in All!!! A Synopsis:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a mythical character as was Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.
simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus was the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

3. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

4. Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/ plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" aka "pretty wingie thingies" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds these acts of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."

The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."
"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life. e.g. Buddha by one legend was supposedly talking when he came out of his mother's womb.

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies and myths surrounding the founders and foundations of said rules of life.

This entire web, Faith, demonstrates that religion has a devastating effect on people: it turns them into monsters.

This blog is degrading. Personal attacks are unnecessary. Facts and logic makes points; not name calling.

Speed 123:

Surely, there is something else you could be doing now.

My, my -

You get very irrational and vicious when confronted with an opposing view and opposing facts.

Wonder why? The world is not an irrational place and neither are events in history.

Cause and effect, mostly.

Using, "Nazi antisemitism" bring doubt about your knowledge of recent history. Nazism is another ism that included "faith" in gods, (Nordic ones in particular). Hitler expressed his "faith" in being divinely guided on the record more than once. Roosevelt's death was viewed as a "divine" sign.

Barbar,

Great comeback....

Obviously, you cannot handle historical criticism that you like to deal in so much.

Get over yourself...

The Pope is right. The pope is always right. He has the truth and the answer to the salvation of the world, so why should he listen to an infidel or compromise. His buddy George Bush will burn in hell because he is not Catholic (at least not yet. maybe like Tony Blair, he's waiting till he leaves office and doesn't need the evangelicals.) Since the Catholic Church is the sole bullwark against Satan, all evil, like the Nazis, is ultimately directed against the Catholic Church. When you are the ultimate authority of the absolute truth, you are at the center of all things.

...So you would like to blame the holocaust on the Church, eh?

Well, before you do that you may want to look at some of your own indiscretions in history...

Spare me the sob story, Barbara.

To exclude the influence of Jewish leaders in communism is like excluding their influence in neo-conservatism.

It is documented that there were high percentages of Jewish men (and women) in the central committee in the early days of communism. Not to mention Marx or Trotsky...!

As for neo cons - look at the roster: the founder - Leo Strauss, Norman Podhoretz, Kristol, Feith, Wolfowitz, Perele, Brooks, Friedman, Abrhams, Libby etc. etc. etc.

...So you would like to blame the holocaust on the Church, eh?

Well, before you do that you may want to look at some of your own indiscretions in history...

Quoting, Speaking from a universal angle, no one needs to condemn Christian people, many of them are condemning themselves right, here every day on this blog.

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

I came not to send peace, but a sword
the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God
all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword
Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

for he beareth not the sword in vain a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

many of them are condemning themselves here every day on this blog.

the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God

Jake (or should I say Serena),

Enough with your twisted history and anti-catholic posts.

The treaty that you posted is between two "states" on the world stage - nothing more nothing less...

National socialists was the governing party in Germany and the Church has to ensure the safety of its members in each country around the globe.

It was not an "endorsement" - it was a matter of fact - and it was several year before the war and then the holocaust.

Basta...

To those criticizing Catholics, esp. from the Jewish angle, why not look at the tact support of the Jewish leadership and community in the rise of the militant Bolshevik regimes....?

Millions were killed, often for no other reason than their "class"...

Research "iron Lazar" in the Ukraine or the percentage of Jewish origin in the Communist Central Committee or the "Lincoln Brigades" from the US to fight for the Republicans - the slaughters of 15,000 unarmed clergy in Spain.

EVERYONE has blood on their hands - try not to be so one sided in your critiques of history...

Please note: The Concordat remained in effect throughout the Holocaust.

Concordat between the Holy See and the German Reich [with Supplementary Protocol and Secret Supplement]

July 20, 1933
[Concordat

Article 16

Before bishops take possession of their dioceses they are to take an oath of loyalty either to the Reich governor of the state (Land) concerned or to the President of the Reich respectively, according to the following formula:

"Before God and on the Holy Gospels I swear and promise, as becomes a bishop, loyalty to the German Reich and to the State (Land) of . . . I swear and promise to honour the legally constituted government and to cause the clergy of my diocese to honour it. With dutiful concern for the welfare and the interests of the German state, in the performance of the ecclesiastical office entrusted to me, I will endeavor to prevent everything injurious which might threaten it."

Jake:
Perhaps of interest to those seeking to defend the Vatican during the Hitler regime. The pathetic part of all this is that some of this material, though not most, had been available, until quite recently on the Vatican web site. It continues to refuse to release documents regarding its guilt.

Note to Protestants: Your churches do not come off particularly well in what follows.
.................................................
German churches used slave labour
Both German state churches are now known to have used slave labour during World War II, but only the Catholic Church refused to join the national compensation fund. Documents imply that the churches' slave labourers were sent to death camps when they were no longer useful (Part I) and that they also knew about the death camps for the babies of the East European workers, yet said nothing (Part II).

Part I: The German Catholic Church “investigates” its own use of slave labour

For 55 years the Catholic and Protestant (EKD) churches in Germany “forgot” that they'd used slave labourers during World War II. However, in August 2000, after some survivors living in the US began suing German companies, a foundation was set up to grant payments to claimants if they’d renounce their right to any further legal action. The foundation was financed by equal contributions from the German Government and a group of German firms, for a total of 10 billion Deutschmarks. [1] That autumn the Protestant Church (EKD) joined with a contribution of 10 million Marks. [2]

But not the Catholic Church. The head of the Bishops Conference, Karl Lehmann, (who was made a cardinal the next year), said that all this had nothing to do with his church because it had never used forced labour.

It was not going to contribute to the fund of the German companies. The Foundation had not the slightest relevance to the situation of the foreign workers in Catholic institutions according to Bishop Lehmann. In the proposal for the Foundation it was stated that "Slave labour and forced labour meant not only the denial of fair wages. They meant abduction, denial of rights, the brutal disregard of human dignity". Research in the Catholic area had shown, however, that forced labourers there were "in most cases paid according to the official wage scale" [i.e. the paper regulations of the Nazis], they received bed and board [which was deducted from their paper "wages", despite the fact that His Excellency implies otherwise] and they were even given pastoral care. "Cases of exploitation or forced performance of heavy labour or brutally hard work have so far not been proven." [3]

Actually, they most certainly had, as is made clear below, but this allowed the Bishop to keep it an internal matter. The Church would take care of everything quietly through its own social agencies in Eastern Europe: faith-based compensation for Church slave labourers.

Prominent German Catholics criticised the decision of their church not to join German industry and the Protestant (EKD) Church in the common compensation fund.

Otto Graf Lambsdorff [FDP] said that the Catholic Church must follow the example of the Protestant Church and also contribute to the compensation funds.
The vicepresident of the [Christian] Union fraction, Wolfgang Bosbach, (CDU) said: "Whoever employed forced labour in the Nazi period must today pay into the funds with no ifs and buts”.
Lambsdorff criticised [his church]: "In contrast to the Protestants the Catholic Church has always offered the excuse that it must first do research into where it had employed forced labour. In the beginning it [even] said there hadn’t been any.” [4]

However, the Church continued to maintain that the matter required deep archival study. Finally on 8 April 2008 Bishop Lehmann announced that the Church had completed its official investigation of itself.

The 703-page report claims that records only survive for 5904 of the mostly East Europeans who were forced to work as gardeners, hospital orderlies and grave diggers in Church institutions. At the news conference Bishop Lehmann repeated his assertion that there was no proof that any of them had to do “hard labour”. [5] This raises questions about his new report, for there’s well-publicised documentary evidence to the contrary.

Broken and sent "away"

At the Jerusalem Graveyard in Berlin-Neukölln 26 Protestant and two Catholic dioceses together ran a camp in which were billetted about 100 “East[European] workers”, whose task was to bury bomb casualties. From a contemporary report on the church camp, comes this entry for 19 March 1945.

“The five East(ern European) workers listed below are, on account of their physical condition no longer suitable for the work to be done at graveyards”. They have broken bones, general weakness, congestive heart failure. “We therefore request the named persons to be assigned to an appropriate collection point, as they are just lying in the camp and taking up the places for men capable of work.” The camp director, Gustav Wenger, closes with the greeting “Heil Hitler”.

Those rejected as unfit in this way were usually sent to the death camp – [Nazi-speak for]“an appropriate collection point”. [6]

According to the Church report issued on 8 April 2008, the Catholic Church had employed at least 5904 slave labourers in 776 Catholic institutions. However, it has managed to minimise the consequences, in terms of both public opinion and financial compensation. Holding itself aloof from the common fund has allowed the Catholic Church to treat compensation of its victims as a purely internal matter, with no oversight and out of the public view. The report claims that by the end of 2004 it had paid each claimant 2556 Euros (at that time worth about $3776). However, after almost 60 years it was only able to find 587 of these aged survivors. The delay caused by the remarkable forgetfulness of the German churches has saved them much unnecessary bother and expense. at least 5904 forced labourers -- and they admit it could be more. Of course, by the time they were forced to begin assuming some responsibility for this, it was almost 60 years after the war's end and they were only able to find 587 survivors to compensate. [7]

Mr. Carroll
First of all, the Holy Father was a young boy during the Holocaust. I understand as an anti-Catholic you like to "stoke' up the fires. Anti-Catholism is embedded in you much like your fellow travelers: the Jew haters. Much like the "educated" Jew Hater(who would never deface a Synagogue, but is contantly supporting the liberation of Palestine and an even-handed Middle East) The Catholic basher typically is so guilty of their moral inequities , they are constantly searching for everything wrong with the Church and getting "aroused" when something can be portrayed as a flaw. I undeerstand your feelings, and the roots of them but I refuse to be silent anymore to the untruths of the protypical Catholic Basher.

By the way, I never heard of Suffolk Univerity.

Quoting Europe’s first pogroms occurred in the 11th century when mobs poured from the Cologne cathedral on Good Friday looking for “Christ-killers.”

Were not “mobs” the BODY of christ

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

bless them that curse you
I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents

do good to them that hate you
preach the gospel to every creature

pray for them which despitefully use you
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world

then shall the end come.
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

“Christ-killers.”

Wow. What powerful stuff.

How come nobody is talking about the AmeriChristian Holocaust in Afghanistan and Iraq?

Jack writes:

"God's people" are an interesting bunch. Not being an observant fellow, and having some free time on my hands, I will post extensively, on the Ukranians and what they did. How did they ever get the blood off."

Jack:

I don't have a lot of time right now, not that I'm observant. But I will try to post some material with sources on the Ukranian Catholic slaughter of the Ukranian Jews. I will also look to see if any of the photographs have been digitalized and put on the web.

Serena

Hey yourself Marc Edward. Allow me to answer point by point:

“Nobody compares the "Final Solution" (post 1941 treatment of the Jews) to what's happening to the Palestinians today.”

Kindly read the posts of “Dan Good” and “George” on this thread. (And by the way, why do you feel obligated to go into such lengths to avoid using the term “Holocaust”?)

“However it is certainly reasonable to compare what the German Jews suffered from 1933-38 to the treatment of the Palestinians by the Isrealis.”

Can you explain why is it reasonable?

“The reason one uses the Holocaust is because it's accurate and more to the point, it's IRONIC”.

Can you explain what is accurate about it and what is ironic about it? All you’ve done so far is prove my point: No one ever backs up those assertions with anything resembling evidence.

“Nobody cares about the Holocaust against the Armenians, Rwandans (and that was the Tutsis, not the Rwandans in general) or what's happening in Sudan (I say nobody cares because despite the many protests, nobody is willing to risk their kids blood to stop it), where as we have all seen films, books and television shows that detail the horror of the Holocaust.”

Are you seriously suggesting that all the people who make the comparisons between the holocaust and the Palestinians have not heard about any other atrocities in history or in current news?

“Perhaps irony is lost on you.”

This one definitely is. I must be a little slow because I don’t see any irony here. Would you care to enlighten me?

“As for "semetic peoples" - Jews are a religion, not a race”

The Nazis certainly did not see it that way. In any event, what does it have to do with the point I was making?

“Native Jews in Palestine do NOT see European and Russian Jews as being like them at all”

Oh really? And what is the source of this little piece of wisdom?

“(in fact they were able to get along with Arab Christians and Muslims for hundreds of years).”

Yes, as long as they were all under the thumb of some foreign empire.

What Holocaust? What happened to the Jews was a tragedy, not a genocide. The past is for historians to debate; we should let them decide what really happened. Why open old wounds now? What does it gain us? Germany is our friend; we don't need to upset them when we need all the allies we can get.

Mark: "My suggestion, Hiku?: visit a fruit store. Notice the apples here and the oranges there. THEN, get back to me with a post that's relative to the topic at hand."

Thanks for the laugh!

As for the decidedly non-funny mass murder in the Ukraine, it was the elimination of a "class" along socio-economic lines rather than the elimination of an ethnic group.

Does this make it any better? Heck no! And it is really a reflection on our media (and their left leaning tendencies) that we favor one type of mass murder over the next.

Where is the movies, tv series, etc. on the evils of "Eliminating An Enemy Class Through Collectivization."????

Unfortunately, my Post is being blocked, but perhaps, Mr. Mark can tell us about how the Ukranians, whose anti-Jewish racism goes back to the beginnings took the opportunity of the Holocaust to slaughter Jews, on its own. So violent were they, that the Nazis, once they occupied, tried to stop them because of the level of disorganziation.

"God's people" are an interesting bunch. Not being an observant fellow, and having some free time on my hands, I will post extensively, on the Ukranians and what they did. How did they ever get the blood off.

"God's people." Blasphemy

Richard Walden sez:

"Carroll is a novelist, not a "scholar" much less a historian. Let's stick to one's last. His first "calling" was obviiously misheard, and now his second calling doesn't seem to be enough for this self-appointed know-it-all."

Wow. I'd hate to think how badly the non-scholarly, non-historian writers of The Bible would fare when judged against the "Walden Standard" of competency.

As far as where their "calling" came from...er...we'd need to bring in the psychoanalysts on that one.

;)

Hiku writes:

"Actually Mr. Mark, the slaughter of Ukranians during mass collectivization including a terror famine resulted in far greater deaths, on the order of 10 million, however these victims are easily ignored by people like you."

You need to learn how to read, Hiku. In my post, I qualified the Holocaust genocide with the phrase, "the worst case of racial/religious mass genocide in the planet's history."

Now, unless you're proposing that Ukranians are a race or a religion, I believe you're comparing apples to oranges.

BTW - who says I'm ignoring the deaths of 10-million Ukranians? Not mentioning them in a post is not ignoring them, even when it comes from "people like me." Indeed, "people like me" can easily wrap their heads around the fact that there are often MYRIAD aspects of a subject that *might* be discussed. I didn't mention the extinction of the dinosaurs either, and for the same reason: it had nothing to do with the Nazi's systematic extermination of the Jews, just as Stalin's slaughter of the Ukrainians had nothing to do with the Nazi extermination of the Jews.

My suggestion, Hiku?: visit a fruit store. Notice the apples here and the oranges there. THEN, get back to me with a post that's relative to the topic at hand.

Have a great weekend.

Carroll is a novelist, not a "scholar" much less a historian. Let's stick to one's last. His first "calling" was obviiously misheard, and now his second calling doesn't seem to be enough for this self-appointed know-it-all.

I am Catholic and attended Good Friday services and there was absolutely no mention of conversion of Jews. We prayed for other Christians. We prayed for Jewish people. We did not pray for their conversion to Christianity. I will admit that, as a child, teachings did seem to accuse the Jews of killing Christ. Catholics now, I opine, do not think that way. It's a fact that Christ was turned over to the high priests and the people called for His crucifixtion. We're now more educated as to the political climate of the times, the Roman occupation, and other factors including the will of G-d that this happened. As it seems to me,Christians and Catholics, historically, are far from blame in many horrendous events, not the least of which is the Holocaust. I prefer to live in love and tolerance and respect with an eye to the past that tells me: "Never again."

Hey Micheal O - Nobody compares the "Final Solution" (post 1941 treatment of the Jews) to what's happening to the Palestinians today. However it is certainly reasonable to compare what the German Jews suffered from 1933-38 to the treatment of the Palestinians by the Isrealis. The reason one uses the Holocaust is because it's accurate and more to the point, it's IRONIC. Nobody cares about the Holocaust against the Armenians, Rwandans (and that was the Tutsis, not the Rwandans in general) or what's happening in Sudan (I say nobody cares because despite the many protests, nobody is willing to risk their kids blood to stop it), where as we have all seen films, books and television shows that detail the horror of the Holocaust. Perhaps irony is lost on you.
As for "semetic peoples" - Jews are a religion, not a race. Native Jews in Palestine do NOT see European and Russian Jews as being like them at all (in fact they were able to get along with Arab Christians and Muslims for hundreds of years). Hope that helps!

For the reader: Paul D.
I'm really aggrieved for you, that you got educated by Mr. Carroll. You should find another source for your education.
Try reading New Testament (just for sport). It is really important for you to know that almost all European culture is based on that piece of literature (being either educated by the Word of God or disputing it). To not know what the New Testament says, in detail, is to not have a base of understanding on "what they are talking about" in all those artworks, ideas, music, books that the Europeans created. Then you can finally form an opinion. And then of course, you will hit with the issue if you are truthful to your self, or you like to lie to yourself.

The author of this article proves herself ignorant both in Christian liturgy & in Christian dogmatic. And the Pope is right: Nazi ideology is a by-product of paganism, alone. Paganism is still deeply rooted in European society. It was never eradicated.
Fact: Jesus and his early followers where 99% of them, Jews.
Fact: For years those Jews preached to other Jews to come to the Lord, not because they hate them, but because it was the will of God to do so (God asked the Jews & the world to come to Him).
Fact: Christian Liturgy & Dogmatic is not anti-Semite because it was revealed/given by Jesus (both Jew & God) who loved his people. So all this anti-Christian rhetoric is born from being ignorant in religion & history. Also, usually, a person who slam Christianity do so ONLY because they hate the very idea that Jesus is indeed God. They are afraid of this idea because they have to renounce sin in order to accept this idea.

When I read an article such as this one and the comments that are made referring to it I often wonder why the complete story isn't told.

Records show that 6 million Jews lost their lives in the holocaust. Records also show that approximately twenty million lives were lost in total. The Jewish people suffered the largest number of deaths but we tend to forget the others. Are the lives of Gay men, Lesbians, Gypsies, mentally and physically handicapped, political dissidents, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. not worthy of being counted?

When we speak of the holocaust we should speak of twenty million human lives lost, not just six million Jewish lives lost.

When I read an article such as this one and the comments that are made referring to it I often wonder why the complete story isn't told.

Records show that 6 million Jews lost their lives in the holocaust. Records also show that approximately twenty million lives were lost in total. The Jewish people suffered the largest number of deaths but we tend to forget the others. Are the lives of Gay men, Lesbians, Gypsies, mentally and physically handicapped, political dissidents, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. not worthy of being counted?

When we speak of the holocaust we should speak of twenty million human lives lost, not just six million Jewish lives lost.

I thought Mr. Carroll was very analytical in his article. None of the comments here against him even refer to the careful arguements of Mr. Carroll. Mr. Carroll did not vent. He went through each of the Pope's speeches and pointed out the implications.

Mr. Carroll said nothing about the Palestinian issue so I am not sure why that is relevant to this discussion

Thanks for educating me.

It is practically impossible nowadays to mention the Holocaust in any context whatsoever, without somebody piping up about "the Holocaust of the Palestinians" or about "The Holocaust being used to justify what is being done to the Palestinians", or about "The Jews taking revenge on the Palestinians for what the Nazis did to them", or some equally harebrained antisemitic assertion. None of the idiots who peddle these lies ever backs them up with anything resembling evidence, because you cannot back up a statement which is so glaringly false. If anything, it's a testament to the power and the achievements of the Arab propaganda machine, and more kudos to them. But a lie, even if repeated a million times, and even if believed by a million people, is still a lie.

And kindly spare us the tired old whining about the use of the term "antisemitic". Yes, it is being used a lot, and yes, it is not always appropriate, but it certainly is in this case. Proof: You never hear the plight of the Palestinians being compared to the Rwanda genocide or the Armenian genocide or the Cambodian genocide, or any other genocide, only to the Holocaust. So the objective is obviously not to illuminate or to educate but to hurt the Jews. That's antisemitic by definition.

(Oh, and spare us also the trite old truism about the Arabs also being semites, blah-blah-blah. If you want to substitute "Antisemitism" with "Anti-Jewish racism", go ahead. Just don't be such a predictable bore).

I guess Jewish involvement in the rise of Bolshevism and this movements attacks on traditional people of Europe have nothing to do with "antisemitism"...

Do people really blindly hate? Or are there reasons people think and act the way they do?

I have a suggestion for Carrols next movie - the 10 million Ukrainians starved to death under the direction of the Jewish Red Army general "Iron Lazar".....

Going to make that one, Carrol? Or discuss jewish influences in communism?

You are a joke!

Carrol is a disaffected former Catholic and pervades in anti-Catholic canards...

As they say, "anti Catholicism is the anti semitism of the Left.."

Hey Carrol, why dont you do your next book on anti Catholic bigotry in America...you can use yourself as one of the subjects.

Anti-Semitism was prevalent in the US in the 30's, as the Nazi demonstrations in Madison Square Garden testifies. We can and should feel deep remorse and sorrow. What we should not do however is perpetuate the crime of antiSemitism by persecuting the Palestinians. And we certainly should not make amends for the horrors of the 1930's by accepting an unaccetable non-religious doctrine of Zionism.

Mr. Carroll: This piece is nothing more than foolish drivel.

Ismael Fayed, as I read history the Ottomans were all too happy to let other faiths flourish inside their bounderies. Christiand and Jews were taxed at a higher rate than Muslims, but they could carry on their religious practices, have their own courts, etc. Christian treatment of Jews has been far worse over history, and I'll be happy to cite examples if you want.
Courage seems to be misinformed regarding the situation in Palestine. Christians have been in Palestine since the time of Christ. It has been under Israeli leadership that the numbers of Christians have dwindled. As for the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians, I think if you do a little reading you'd sewe there is little difference between the Isreali treatment of the Palestians and Hitlers treatment of the Jews pre-1938. I fail to see how the Holocaust against the European Jews justifies taking the homes and towns of the Palestinians.

George,
The jews must not be a) very good or b) really conniving at their "slow motion holocaust" against the Palestinians since the Palestinian demographic rate has grown exponentially inside Israel and the PA territories; the only shrinkage taking place is among Arab Christians tired of paying "protection money" to corrupt Fatah thugs under PA authority- they are leaving but their #s are quite small anyway. Please peddle your murky nonsense elsewhere-

James Carroll is right on! Without Christian/Catholic antisemitism there would have been no Nazi antisemitism or it would not have been so successful. Millions of German, Austrian, Croatian, Polish, Lithuanian and other Catholics found it easy enough to applaud actively or passively the genocide of the Jews among them. The Vatican has always been slippery about its misdeeds. Cardinal Tardini, at the court of Pius XII, once remarked that Vatican diplomacy began with Simon Peter's betrayal of Christ!

The Vatican betrayed the very Catholic Poles twice, in the 19th Century it urged them against their various revolts against Russian tyranny, and during the Hitler period it was much partial towards the Germans who were trying to destroy Poland's spiritual and intellectual elite. The Vatican has always seen Germany as its ally in pushing into eastern Europe, from the days of the Teutonic Knights through the Nazi period.

Benedict means well of course but as Pope he has to defend the indefensible Catholic church, the most evil institution in history after the Nazi SS.

Does anybody remember Muslim treatment of Jews
semilar to Christins treatment (as examples shown in your report)
I. Fayed

If antisemitism in Europe has it's foundation in neo-paganism based on Teutonic "myths" of Aryan superiority, is it unfair to point out the slow motion holocaust against the Palestinian people may have it's basis in Talmudic "myths"?

There is something rotten about this guy.
He is clearly retro in his approach to Catholicism. He allegedly will tell American catholics that they cannot advocate or embrace "cafeteria Catholicism" without suffering pains ... as "Holy Mother The Church" has preached except under several other enlightened Popes.
Ratzinger is clearly a by the book kind of Catholic, so, yes, will the Catholic Church really state, at some time, that IT is the only true way to Heaven? I grew up with that crap, and it finally became too much. Often, my friends, many of whom were "recovering Catholics in 12 step recovery as well," joked: well, sooner or later, our modern Buddhist/Jewish/Quaker/Unitarian etc., etc., will be confronted with life after death.
Will we finally have that moment of truth when we're told:
"Rules, as espoused by guys like Ratzinger weren't ever that rigid"... or, "you guys should have listened to Ratzinger. Now, you have to spend eons sitting outside the gates, waiting for the dispensation to admit." I am a Quaker by 20 + years, so I feel it is a moment of truth whenever I contemplate that.
And, yes, Christians made anti-semitism quite possible long before the Holocaust. I hope Benedict's tenure is short, and we find other Popes such as Pope John Paul XXIII, or Pope John Paul II. I believe personally that God, the Church, are ever evolving, not stuck in the concrete of 1000 years of often dreadful history.

focus

16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Thank you Anonymous YOU MADE MY POINT... it's Bla Bla Bla... no where does it say "This is God speaking, I'm writing this now and you better listed to me cause I'm God" --- no it's a book written by men, period.

---------

Posted by
JOHN 5

39You diligently study[a] the Scriptures...

ACTS 18

27When Apollos wanted to go to Achaia, ....

ROMANS 15

For everything that was written in the past was ...

Thomas wrote:
"where in the torah or bible does it say that these books are the word of God and not the word of Man ... who is God in the sense that show me something that God is not... and if all men(and women) are the creation of God then all books would be the word of God, even Harry Potter.
"

Answer:

JOHN 5

39You diligently study[a] the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

ACTS 18

27When Apollos wanted to go to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples there to welcome him. On arriving, he was a great help to those who by grace had believed. 28For he vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.

ROMANS 15

For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope

TIMOTHY 2

15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

2 PETER

15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

17Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

Any more questions ?

Is it any surprise that the Pope want's to whitewash the long Christian tradition of anti-semitism? What's shocking is how the media kisses up to the Pope and the church. The media ignored the holocaust, the church's silence during the Nazi era, and now the media ignores how church policies contribute to the deaths of millions today. I guess it's easier to write puff pieces than to risk being called "anti-Catholic"

Abe - it's easy to claim somebody is a liar, but could you at least have the intellectual honesty to list his lie? Are you claiming that the Holocaust was actually aimed at Christianity as the Pope did? That's a surprising assertion to anyone who has studied the Holocaust.
Mr. Garcia - what does the mass murders by Stalin and Mao have to do with the Holocaust? Nobody pretends that these totalitarian dictators were better than Hitler, so who are you trying to argue with - yourself?

George Garcia,

I was raised Catholic but I find your comments offensive about "your people". Why is it that articles about Jews, israel, the holocaust, etc. bring out the crazy in people?? All one has to do is read the feedback comments to realize that many people are prepared to scapegoat Israel/the jews for the ills of the world and will refer to the most lunatic propaganda available online or book form (cue Hug a Terrorist Carter) to back up their ideological bent. What's your real problem??

where in the torah or bible does it say that these books are the word of God and not the word of Man ... who is God in the sense that show me something that God is not... and if all men(and women) are the creation of God then all books would be the word of God, even Harry Potter.

How desperate is the WaPo for copy?
If it feels the need to fill its pages with historical moralizing it ought at least turn to a competent historian, not the likes of a superficial amateur like James Carrol.

" Does it intend to restore the lethal Christian conviction that God’s only plan for Jews is baptism?"

How is that "lethal"? Every religion believes it is right. Actually, the notion that Jews should be converted is a plea for their salvation (regardless whether you agree or not). Sounds like an act of love to me (even if it in the past and in a few instances presently spawn malicious means of achieving it).

What would you have Benedict do, ignore the Bible in the name of relativistic political correctness?

How...lukewarm...look up the relevance of the latter term.

Is this a movie trailer or pitch with the a lead up intrigue for a fictional movie. How much longer is the Holocaust going to be used by those not even associated with or affected by it as a punchline or sales pitch. The historical slaughter of Jews by the Nazi regime is only part of the slaughter of peoples, Jewish and others, over history. There is an estimate that the slaughter by Stalin of millions of unknowns (many Jews) may actually exceed the Nazi holocaust.

The Jewish religion and all its great tradition and depth has been hijacked by the holocaust. It is sad to say, but many Jews (often non-practicing of the faith) have allowed this to happen. Sadly, most US Jews have a closer affiliation with the holocaust and some peripheral link to a victimhood than they do to their own religion and faith traditions. In this way they are similiar to lost Catholics who do not practice and have only a peripheral link of childhood to Catholicism.

As a kid who played little league and high school baseball, I do not introduce myself to people as a baseball player. Nor should those people in various polls say they are Catholic or Jewish as a title in order to then bash the faith they are supposedly a part of.

Give this a rest. Of course a faith like the RCC is going to convert people. Other Christians, Jews, Muslims and atheists are on the menu. Who can be offended by that. Conversion is a part of any formal religion. You think you have the right way and thus you want to convince others.

This whole post is much ado about nothing except movie promotion and just more typical WaPo garbage. Go to NYT if you want some good discussion.

Mr. Carroll:

Your main argument--that if Christian anti-Semitism had not been as strong as it was, the Holocaust would never have happened--is far from a proven fact. There have been other genocides in other parts of the world where there wasn't any religious teaching to prepare the groundwork. What about the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia? What about Rwanda? What about what happened to so many Native Americans? Of course, traditional Christian teachings about Jews hardly helped the situation. But the evidence suggests that the Holocaust was able to happen because of shortcomings in human nature common to all humanity, not just Christians.

Maybe he's hoping to be remembered in Mel Gibson's will.

Gibson probably told him he owns Malibu.

Marvin,
It's all about Jewish suffering. Forget the tens of millions who died at the hands of the Communitsts. Everyone's responsible, the German people, IBM, Ford, the Vatican, 1.4 Billion Muslims, Spain, the Ukraine. Your people have built up an impressive list of enemies.

god bless james carroll

There are many disturbing parallels between the Nazi manipulation of Christian leaders in the 1930's and the cozy relationship between the neocons and present-day evangelical leaders. The Nazis actively solicited theologians for justification in their discrimination and persecution of Jews, just as the current administration seems to reward right-wing Christian demonization of Muslims. Conclusion? The present POTUS and his cohort are manipulative atheists just like Hitler's Nazis, who see easy prey in conservative theology, and a furtherance of a purely fascist agenda. This Pope risks becoming an unwitting accomplice to genocide, just like his predecessor from the 1930's. Those who fail to learn the lessons of history . . .

If the Post feels compelled to publish anti-Catholic rants during the Pope's visit, can't you at least find some new crackpots?

It's not easy to find anyone more embarrassing than Crossan, but in James Carroll you manage: a scholar manque who publishes a pastiche of historical myths and is lionized by the politically fashionable for having done that supposedly very brave thing: telling anti-Catholics what they want to hear.