Posted by Christopher Hitchens on April 16, 2008 7:53 AM
All Comments (253)
Alphonsus:
“every religion is a clamp on its followers arresting him from any aesthetic contemplation of divinity that there may exist. Catholicism is by far the most rigid in this...”
I wonder if Fra Angelico, Peter Paul Rubens, Georges Rouault, Raphael, Michelangelo Buonarotti, Salvador Dalí, Sandro Botticelli, Gian Lorenzo Bernini, Giovanni Baglione, Titian, Leonardo da Vinci, Artemisia Gentileschi, Sigrid Undset, Amadeus Mozart, Francois Mauriac, Palestrina, Georges Bernanos, Henri Bergson, Leon Bloy, Graham Greene, Flanner O’Connor, Walker Percy, Evelyn Waugh, Alexander Pope, Joseph Hayden, Franz Liszt, Frederic Chopin, Antonio Vivaldi, Chaucer, Alessandro Manzoni, G.K. Chesterton, Hillaire Belloc, John Dryden, Giuseppe Verdi, Hildegarde von Bingen, Shusaku Endo, Gabriel Marcel, Czesław Miłosz, Henryk Sienkiewicz, Allen Tate, etc. would agree with that assertion.
Ratzinger is a destestable hypocrite. He and his policies are in large measure responsible for the unspeakable crimes committed by his psychopathic "holy" underlings. (Anyone who wants evidence for these claims should watch the 2006 BBC documnentary "Sex Crimes and the Vatican" (available on line), which brings to light the fact that a "confidential" Vatican document--reflecting the views of the "Grand Inquisitor" himself--outlined pricisely the procedures of covering up the sex crimes for which the Pope now tearfully professes shock and sadness. As if HE were not the one directing the show!
Instead of his unctuous prayers and pious babbling, let "The Holy Father" come clean about his own role in all this. Let him help put rodents like Bernard Law and Roger Mahoney in jail instead of continuing to shlter them. Let him make public a list of all the sex criminals still at large (or hiding in the Vatican).
The behavior of the Church in all this should put to rest, once and for all, the ridiculous canard that we somehow need religion to preserve and protect morality! Talk about the wolf guarding the henhouse.
every religion is a clamp on its followers arresting him from any aesthetic contemplation of divinity that there may exist. Catholicism is by far the most rigid in this...
Replying to Chris - Thanks for comment. I think Plato's discussion is still the foundational one, with its linked sense that religion may produce morally arbitrary results and that it is the only way we've found to avoid a painful split between morality and self-interest. I admit that I haven't attained to atheism myself.
That said, I think that Hitchens in his specific point is more correct than I (Christian prejudice at work?) acknowledged before. Pope Ben seems to be saying that he is surprised and ashamed by the existence of a certain kind of sinful behaviour among people who also have a certain kind of religious and moral idealism. This is strange: the existence of temptation and frequent human succumbing to temptation is one of the basic premises of the existence of the Church, and I don't think that even the Church claims that becoming a priest or even a pope makes you reliably resistant to sin. People who sin or do moral wrong in some way are not necessarily horrible, unprincipled, non-idealistic - or even generally dislikable - persons. The point, as Hitchens quite rightly says, is not the existence of personal sin but the existence of a self-protective mechanism within the Church, profoundly self-serving rather than other-serving. There is something horrible about this.
Why is everyone believing the lie that Bernard Law is wanted by U.S. law enforcement? What he did was terrible but not (in the legal sense) criminal.
Google "Why Isn't Boston's Cardinal Law in Jail?"
"You can not expect a natural function to be supressed. The results are now being revealed, and not being dealt with truthfully."
Are you suggesting that celibacy turns healthy, normal men into homosexual predators (statistically, over 80% of the victims were males between the ages of 11 and 17)?
I'm guessing the magic word "presto" derives from "prestidigitation". Another bit of triv...apparently the words "hocus pocus" derive from the words a priest says at the moment communion wafers are transubstantiated i.e. "hoc est enim corpus meum".
I'm bemused by Hitch's Pecksniffian posturing in this whole affair.
Recall Hitchens was a professional apologist for genocidal Bolsheviks for most of his career as a lefty screed peddler. His greatest hero was one Lev Davidovich Bronstein (a.k.a. Leon Trotsky) "People's Commissar of War" and founder of the Russian Red Army which was itself guilty of perhaps the worst atrocities known to man up to that date with the possible exception of the reign of Ghengis Khan's Hordes.
One can total all clerical depredations ever committed, throw in the Spanish Inquisition and a half-dozen Crusades, and one would still fall far short of the rapine, pillage, and wanton murder of the Marxists in the 20th century alone by a factor of more than 100.
Us religionists doth tend to resort to our most inventive invectives that can get pass the blog censors in Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris and Susan Jacoby's threads, don't we?
Makes for some spicy, tasty and testy posts but not rational, logical or reasonable ones. And it would be so boring for atheists if otherwise.:)
So I was being polemical - it's a Hitchens post, for goodness sake! I was responding to MHughes976 who couldn't see the intrinsic relationship between delusion and havoc. The pithy quotation is admittedly narrow. As you rightly point out, delusion encompasses more than just religion, and includes political utopianism as well. And mental illnesses like schizophrenia.
You : They say that good people do good things and bad people do bad things, but for a good person to do real evil - that takes religion."
Ahh...back to that again.
Because we are supposed to be good people after all. We got religion, so, we can't act like Pol Pot who is said by many close to him to be a "good" person in spite of being a non-religious sort incapable of real evil like molesting a child and getting away with it, only murdering millions, and just getting house arrest.
You are familiar with the phrase the "banality of evil" that originates from Hannah Arendt in her book, "Eichmann in Jerusalem".
You write "I don't see how belief in a superior being who is somehow concerned with our moral behaviour is likely of itself to produce immorality and filth."
In fact, to some extent this is the necessary outcome of a superstitious world view that thinks of morality as obedience to ancient religious strictures that were codified in a bygone era of ignorance and barbarism. Religious superstition blinds the believer to real morality, motivated by our natural ethical temperments and subject to rational analysis. Just look at Osama Bin Laden.
They say that good people do good things and bad people do bad things, but for a good person to do real evil - that takes religion.
It seems reasonable to assume that since he's hammering on this issue much of his trip here this week, and has gone from talking about it to meeting with victims already, that he's on that path.
Anyone listening to him the past couple of days cannot help but feel that he's trying to remedy the situation as completely as he can and is taking accelerated steps to do that. For some people, however, it's clear that nothing--no action, no meeting, no words--will be enough to serve that purpose.
It's quite remarkable that this meeting has taken place, really. I doubt Hitchens anticipated it. And in the absence of anticipating further action, I suggest we all wait and see what else unfolds.
Floridian wrote: Benedict XVI met privately today with several victims of clergy sexual abuse from the Boston Archdiocese. That seems to go further than Hitchens imagined he would go, past remarks and regrets, to action.
Read Hitchens full views on Slate.com. He wants action, not meetings, including the return of Law to face charges.
Benedict should require that all priest child sex abusers be turned over immediately to civil authority for potential criminal prosecutrion. Absent that, his actions are a sham.
You admit the Catechism has nothing on priestly child sex abuse.
You say it is covered by Canon Law, but that law is general.
You admit by your silence that the bishops, including Law, did nothing under canon law "to establish more specific norms" or "to pass judgment in particular cases."
The Vatican just issued a press release that Pope Benedict XVI met privately today with several victims of clergy sexual abuse from the Boston Archdiocese.
That seems to go further than Hitchens imagined he would go, past remarks and regrets, to action.
I don't see how belief in a superior being who is somehow concerned with our moral behaviour is likely of itself to produce immorality and filth. I do see that the creation of an institution that thinks itself sacred produces protection for the very un-sacred behaviour of individuals who are senior in that organisation, and for this the only cure is very courageous leadership, not clearly shown in this case. I have never had that kind of leadership responsibility so I can't say that I would have behaved better in such horrible circumstances.
Even the religious themselves are admitting concern with falling church attendence and falling enrollment in Seminaries and the priesthood.
Its not just the filth and moral squalor with which religion has always been tainted; the pedophilia no doubt goes way back to the beginning of the priestly profession; it's that religious thinking looks more and more the irrational superstitious nonsense that it really is - the smarter and more literate we become as a species.
Try as you superstitionists may, there's no stopping progress.
Carney, with all due respect, and without intending to offend, but just asking, why is Law not up on charges in the Vatican for violating sub 3 of Canon 277?
Carney. No offense was intended, so do not be offended.
Nothing in the catechism. Okay.
It is in Canon law. Okay.
1983 CIC 277.
§ 1. Clerics are obliged to observe perfect and perpetual continence for the sake of the kingdom of heaven and therefore are bound to celibacy which is a special gift of God by which sacred ministers can adhere more easily to Christ with an undivided heart and are able to dedicate themselves more freely to the service of God and humanity.
§ 2. Clerics are to behave with due prudence towards persons whose company can endanger their obligation to observe continence or give rise to scandal among the faithful.
§3. The diocesan bishop is competent to establish more specific norms concerning this matter and to pass judgment in particular cases concerning the observance of this obligation.
Just what did diocesan bishops, like Law, do in this case?
People "love" religion for one main reason. It promises everlasting life. Trouble is the thoughtful among us are very skeptical of such promises. Anyone can promise anything. But reality shows that everything dies. Everything...without exception.
Once upon a time the only knowledge we had was told us through religion. Religion ruled the earth and would remove (or cure) those who doubted their "truth".
Those primitive times are long gone. Now we have science which shows that much of what the church told us over the eons was absolute nonsense; and universal literacy and worldwide education are spreading these realities, and now religion is on its knees praying for credibility and respectability when there is none for those who believe and promote irrational mumbo jumbo, the supernatural and magic that never actually works.
None of religions claims have ever been shown to be true. Only groupthink keeps religions alive; groupthink and childhood indoctrination; without which we'd all be atheists.
Mmm...interesting word prestidigitation...had to look it up...conjuror. Yeah, I can dig it.
Religion's all about sleight of hand, you might say, and living with the cognitive dissonance, ie.'I know religion makes no sense but it's not supposed to make sense'.
I feel certain that religion will eventually go the way of alchemy and astrology, which also were marginalized by rationalism and post-enlightenment thinking, where once they had been extremely influential.
Panner, that's a vicious smear. I'll give you the benefit of a doubt and assume your ignorance, that you've just passed on a meme you picked up somewhere.
The Catechism is a document aimed at the wider world, both the Catholic faithful and non-Catholics.
For rules about how the Church is structured and how its clergy are to behave, you must turn to the Code of Canon Law, which in Canon 277§1 specifically forbids priests to engage in any sexual behavior whatsoever. Obviously that would include the underaged.
Yoyo the yoyo writes: "The recent awareness that children have been sexually abused by priests should have us all wondering if this is just a recent thing, or has this always happened in churches."
Or perhaps, just perhaps, it is a "thing" that has always happened in human society.
All are human, therefore, all sin.
You guys must have loved the Dan Brown fiction about the evil conspiracies of Catholics...
Catholics, please check your 1988 catechism for priestly pedophilia and priestly child abuse, and report back to us. Take your time. There is nothing there.
But masturbation is in the index and is a seriously disordered act.
So, they are told that a victimless act is very wrong, but told nothing about permanent personal injury to an underage person.
When dealing with an organization that has 1,970+ years worth of experience in mental prestidigitation under its sash, we are also perhaps well advised to keep our eyes focused, unblinkingly, on the hand that *isn't* being frantically waved about e.g. the recently touted "wider agenda".
The recent awareness that children have been sexually abused by priests should have us all wondering if this is just a recent thing, or has this always happened in churches.
Common sense should tell us that this has been happening all along, but it's only now - with the modern media everywhere all the time, that we understand anything about it. If we'd had an active media a thousand years ago, we'd have long been aware that pedophilia was endemic among cloistered men from the very beginning. But children in those days had nowhere to turn - except to the Church. (O the irony of "Suffer little children to come unto me").
And we know how the church has always reacted to bad and lurid accusations. Deny deny deny.
The last place to turn to for truth about anything is the Church; any church.
Right on these apologists for abuse are so unchristian that I am puzzled why they are so intent on defending the RC Church, is it because the institution is itself long past being a Christian institution and simply a business.
Wow if I ever had a doubt about my departure from the RC church. A church to which my family had belonged to for over a thousand years, and in defense of they were forced to leave the old country your callousness and insensitivity removes any remaining doubt.
I like all of my siblings and most of my cousins have left that wretched insipid institution I doubt that it will survive the century.
It is no longer the institution of Aquinas, Becket or Moore, it is now the church of Bernard Law and the Nazi Pope.
To those of you who still believe in that faith try the Greek Orthodox church which is recognized as a true faith even by the RC Church, it has transubstantiation and all the rest, with out all the baggage.
The sex scandal in the Catholic Church was ,in my opinion,a crime on two levels.The first was the spiritual level in which a minister of God betrayed his trust and victimized the helpless who looked up to him as a role model and spiritual guide,and led him into the dark-side of life and sin.This made the spiritual life an ugly sham and a hypocritical lie.
The second level was, this was a Felony in secular Life and as such the Offender should have been turned over to the authorities.By the fact that he was not the Bishop who sheltered him also broke secular law and incurred that guilt as well.The fact that they were priests should not have mitigated this guilt.
Hey SPEED as priest abuse which was made up out of sodomy and rape was the whole point of the original post that is what I wrote about.
I could have like you been totally off topic and brought up the Popes service of the Nazi regime and his total inaction in helping out the victims of the holocaust as it occurred, but again that would have been off topic
You are so off point of the original blog in your attempt to divert the eyes of the reader.
Perhaps as you seem to be obsessed with public schools you have some phobia against public schools.
Perhaps you are simply in able to focus on the original issue because you have one of the new age disease which do not allow you to focus take a large dose of Ritalin read the original post and then perhaps you will see how all of your posts have been off the point.
Next time you post to a post blog as you can not stay on topic please try to find a blog that has something to do with your agenda.
I am no longer sympathetic towards the victims - I don't even respond during Mass whenever we pray for them...
I am sick of all the jokes I have to hear at work about rapist priests, I am sick of the Pope bashing, I am sick of anti-Catholicism in general, and I am definitely sick of people talking about this issue like they REALLY give a damn!
...And I swear, if I hear one more "used to be" Catholic talking bad about the Church... I think I'm gonna lose it. I love the Church, I love the Holy Father, and I love our Priests...
---------------------------------------------
Mike,
I used to be Catholic and I have to agree with you. People who were molested deserve only scorn.
It also sounds like you're in love with priests, I've heard they like it if their lovers dress up like an alter boys so you might have to do a little shopping.
Although you might be sick of Pope jokes, here's one...
Q: What did the dad say to the priest at the beach?
I mean, with defenders like yourself around, it's just inconceivable that all those thousands of traumatized kids could have been abused and afraid to come forward, just cause of a few bishops, of course.
They must be making it up. Cause they hate you. Right. Good thing you don't really give em something to cry about, right?
Mike,
Maybe if the Catholic Church would "behave" there'd be fewer jokes. And I'm sure the victims (and yes, the "victims", in scare quotes) will continue to hire lawyers and win their cases if they have merit.
As to Speed123's comments about secular teacher's abuse of students, I've yet to hear of a public school system or the U.S. Department of Education enabling and covering up said activities.
Well your hunch is wrong Mr. Psychic. I AM a Catholic, my Parish DID merge and closed the building that my family helped build, and I AM sick of all the talk about victims. I am no longer sympathetic towards the victims - I don't even respond during Mass whenever we pray for them. YOU can say "Lord hear our prayer" if you feel like it, but I'm not praying for them ANY MORE. I am sick of all the jokes I have to hear at work about rapist priests, I am sick of the Pope bashing, I am sick of anti-Catholicism in general, and I am definitely sick of people talking about this issue like they REALLY give a damn! Especially non-Catholics! Stop acting like you care - you just hate the Church and this scandal just gives you something to beat us Catholics over the head with. And I swear, if I hear one more "used to be" Catholic talking bad about the Church... I think I'm gonna lose it. I love the Church, I love the Holy Father, and I love our Priests... I shouldn't have to put up with this garbage any more. You’re all lucky I'm not a Muslim - I'm just a bad Catholic who tries to be a "good" enough Catholic to not knock your teeth out of the back of your head.
I'd just wanted to point out that the blog's technical problems seemed to have abated somewhat since I wrote an open letter to the His Eminence...Immenseness(?)...whatever...on another thread beseeching his assistance. Coincidence? You guys owe may me.
I am so far past the point of being sick and tired of hearing about the poor "victims." I couldn't care less about the "victims" anymore. Most of them are money grubbing selfish liars anyway, I figure at least half of the people who claimed to be abused were lying through their teeth. I was abused too - by my (public) grade school teacher. And like these "victims" it was years ago - you don't see me trying to force the county school system into bankruptcy. But here we have a bunch of morons crying to any other moron who will listen about crap that happened (or didn't happen) to them decades ago. Go ahead "victims" - go hire a lawyer and come get your money - just don't ask me to shed tears for you when you caused my parish to close down - and I can no longer go to Mass at a church that my Great Great Grandfather helped build with his brothers and cousins. These "victims" have become the victimizers.
He has nothing to say about the safety and welfare of children except when it is easy to kick the leader of a religious group that he dislikes. The other 364 days of the year, he is complaining about something else.
Well Mr. Hitchen, more people died at Chappaquiddick Bridge than have ever died in any church sex abuse scandal.
Again no specifics. Just obtuse un-substantiated allegations.
If it makes me a bigot to be against predator priests raping and sodomizing children (over 11,000 in the us alone,) then I will gladly be a bigot, rather that than an apologist for people like Chicago's Cardinal George a close friend of El Popa who allowed just recently a predator priest to remain around children.
If you allege abuse by the public schools
Name the School District,
Name the Superintendent
Name the School Committee
that allowed Sodomy, Rape, molestation of children to continue for generations.
Warren babbles: "You mention one person who was fired, this person was not protected by his superiors and shipped around from school to school systematically raping and molesting his students."
Warren, you obviously didn't read the whole report - teachers who molested dozens of times were protected by unions and principles. They may have been let go - but they were done so with marks on their record...or bad references...because they were protected by the system.
In fact just last week a elementary school teacher was found in a hotel with a 14 and 15 year old smoking weed and naked...
Is this the secular teachers that are supposed to protect and teach our kids??
Stop protecting secular perverts and sodomites in the school Warren...
Benedict told reporters. "If I read the stories of these victims, it is difficult for me to understand how it was possible that priests betrayed in this way their mission to give healing, to give love of God to these children."
Excuse me pope, most of the priests believed they WERE giving the love of God to these children who were seeking to them for guidance and more.....
PS, your holiness, how many holes are you supposed to have before you are considered holy?
Speed
Your argument is again baseless and just a pathetic attempt to divert eyes from the issue of Sodomy and rape of children by perverts hiding behind the cloth.
You mention one person who was fired, this person was not protected by his superiors and shipped around from school to school systematically raping and molesting his students.
The fact that this person was rehired is not indicative of a complex conspiracy to enable child molestation as was with the Catholic church. It is not indicative of his being protected by a school system or superintendent just that he was fired and rehired by another system because of a lack of oversight and poor vetting of a teacher candidate.
There is a difference between a superior and organizations complicity in assaults on children and poor hiring practices.
Name the school system name the superintendent that has such duplicity in a teachers actions that come any where equal to what the RC church did.
How many school systems have gone bankrupt as a result of sexual misconduct that was condoned by higher ups, None
Now how many churches in Boston alone have closed so the land they sit on could be sold, The archdiocese even had to sell the cardinal's residence and the seminary grounds to pay for their transgressions.
Name one public school that had to be sold to pay for superior condoned sexual misconduct, again none.
--"I agree, screw Hitchens, his war propaganda and his hair plugs! Can't we deport this lout?"
Deport him because of hair plugs or for voicing an opinion against the Catholic Church? If it's the latter, then no...not since about the 16th century or so.
Hear, hear, Christopher! Well said. For too long the Catholic Church has had this problem, as you phrased it in your recent book, of 'No Child's Behind Left'.
The extent of the molestation of children at the hands of Roman Catholic clergy is astounding, though I need to add it is by no means an exclusively Catholic problem. Of course, almost as bad as the actual transgressions committed are the cover ups and opacity of the hierarchy in regards to their crimes.
If one believes Bible stories and also believes that Jesus is an eternal, indivisible part of the Trinity, it would seem that a reasonable case can be made that Jesus was actually responsible for far worse in regards to Canaanite and Egyptian children. Perhaps that's why the Church initially failed to appreciate the seriousness of the actions of some of its clerics. After all, it's not like those clerics slaughtered babies or anything.
Still, it's odd that a religion ostensibly guided by an omnipotent and omniscient Holy Spirit would need to be schooled on morality by secular authorities.
Oh there "Reality Challenged" and Obfuscating Jihadist,
The global community awaits for the apologies from the president and ayatollas of Iran and also from the King of Saudi Arabia and his "wannabees" for supporting the 24/7 terror activities gripping the world today.
And since heaven is a spirit state as per Aquinas, there are no physical bodies there i.e. Jesus did not rise and ascend to heaven and there also were no flying chariots stopping by with any raving Moslems on board.
So true, Andrew, as are all the rest of the posters on this blog who see through Hitch's outrageous over-statements, and over-simplications of a complex matter of the many cases which were settled, in lieu of litigation, where probably well over half of those who "claimed" TO BE ABUSED, IN FACT WERE NOT, BUT THEY SURE WANTED THE MONEY, THOSE BOTTOMLESS POCKETS OF THE CHURCH, NOW DIDN'T THEY? AND THEY GOT IT, BECAUSE THE CHURCH SETTLED THE CASES, RATHER THAN GOING TO TRIAL-BECAUSE I CAN TELL YOU THIS MUCH, HITCH- IF THOSE POOR LITTLE EFFED UP YOUNG MEN WHO WANTED TO JUMP ON THE CATHOLIC MONEY BANDWAGON HAD TO ACTUALLY PROVE DAMAGES, THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE TO DO, QUITE APART FROM THEIR OVER-EXAGGERATION OF THEIR ALLEGED "ABUSE." I'm not saying there weren't a lot of legitimate cases, BUT THERE WERE WORST CASES THAT WERE COVERED UP BY PRIESTS IN CANADA AND IRELAND, AS WELL AS ITALY, TO NAME A FEW OTHER COUNTRIES-THIS COUNTRY HAS FACED UP TO THE PROBLEMS IN THE CHURCH AND ACTIVELY SOUGHT TO REMEDY THE SITUATION IN A MYRIAD OF WAYS ON MANY DIFFERENT LEVELS.
But Hitch is worthless on topics like this-the only reason he gets yet another, YET ANOTHER BLOG ON THIS TOPIC IS BECAUSE BFF SALLY QUINN ALLOWED HIM TO PUT IT OUT THERE AGAIN-SO HE COULD SHOW HOW SUPERIOR HE IS, IN HIS "LOOK AT ME, I'M AN ATHEIST, AREN'T I SUPERIOR? MODE.
Hitch is a lout and a lush besides-he doesn't quite so obtuse as long as he sticks to political issues, quite apart from his support for the carnage of the Iraq war, which although different from the point he is making in this blog, does show him to be more than a little hypocritical, and more than a little intellectually dishonest. But HITCH IS AN INTELLECTUAL, YOU SEE, SO OF COURSE THERE'S NO INCONSISTENCY, NO INTELLECTUAL DISHONESTY WHATSOEVER IN HIS POSITION ABOUT HOLDING THE CHURCH RESPONSIBLE FOR A COLLECTIVE COVER-UP OF WHAT I DON'T KNOW, AND BEING ALL RAH RAH FOR A WAR THAT HAS KILLED HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF MEN WOMEN AND CHILDREN -no intellectual dishonesty whatsoever in those two positions, now is there, you big prat!
And it IS true, Hitch your ugly statements do in fact border on libel, but it's easy to take a cheap shot at the church, because you know they won't respond, particularly when you're an INTELLECTUAL AND an ATHEIST-WOOOOO! TOUGH GUY WITH THE TOUGH WORDS!
All Comments (253)
“every religion is a clamp on its followers arresting him from any aesthetic contemplation of divinity that there may exist. Catholicism is by far the most rigid in this...”
I wonder if Fra Angelico, Peter Paul Rubens, Georges Rouault, Raphael, Michelangelo Buonarotti, Salvador Dalí, Sandro Botticelli, Gian Lorenzo Bernini, Giovanni Baglione, Titian, Leonardo da Vinci, Artemisia Gentileschi, Sigrid Undset, Amadeus Mozart, Francois Mauriac, Palestrina, Georges Bernanos, Henri Bergson, Leon Bloy, Graham Greene, Flanner O’Connor, Walker Percy, Evelyn Waugh, Alexander Pope, Joseph Hayden, Franz Liszt, Frederic Chopin, Antonio Vivaldi, Chaucer, Alessandro Manzoni, G.K. Chesterton, Hillaire Belloc, John Dryden, Giuseppe Verdi, Hildegarde von Bingen, Shusaku Endo, Gabriel Marcel, Czesław Miłosz, Henryk Sienkiewicz, Allen Tate, etc. would agree with that assertion.
April 21, 2008 2:04 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2008 14:04
"Let him help put rodents like Bernard Law and Roger Mahoney in jail instead of continuing to shlter [sic] them."
Where did this idea that Mahoney and Law are fugitives from the U.S. law enforcement come from?
April 21, 2008 1:31 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2008 13:31
Ratzinger is a destestable hypocrite. He and his policies are in large measure responsible for the unspeakable crimes committed by his psychopathic "holy" underlings. (Anyone who wants evidence for these claims should watch the 2006 BBC documnentary "Sex Crimes and the Vatican" (available on line), which brings to light the fact that a "confidential" Vatican document--reflecting the views of the "Grand Inquisitor" himself--outlined pricisely the procedures of covering up the sex crimes for which the Pope now tearfully professes shock and sadness. As if HE were not the one directing the show!
Instead of his unctuous prayers and pious babbling, let "The Holy Father" come clean about his own role in all this. Let him help put rodents like Bernard Law and Roger Mahoney in jail instead of continuing to shlter them. Let him make public a list of all the sex criminals still at large (or hiding in the Vatican).
The behavior of the Church in all this should put to rest, once and for all, the ridiculous canard that we somehow need religion to preserve and protect morality! Talk about the wolf guarding the henhouse.
April 19, 2008 10:22 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 19, 2008 10:22
every religion is a clamp on its followers arresting him from any aesthetic contemplation of divinity that there may exist. Catholicism is by far the most rigid in this...
April 19, 2008 9:57 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 19, 2008 09:57
Replying to Chris - Thanks for comment. I think Plato's discussion is still the foundational one, with its linked sense that religion may produce morally arbitrary results and that it is the only way we've found to avoid a painful split between morality and self-interest. I admit that I haven't attained to atheism myself.
That said, I think that Hitchens in his specific point is more correct than I (Christian prejudice at work?) acknowledged before. Pope Ben seems to be saying that he is surprised and ashamed by the existence of a certain kind of sinful behaviour among people who also have a certain kind of religious and moral idealism. This is strange: the existence of temptation and frequent human succumbing to temptation is one of the basic premises of the existence of the Church, and I don't think that even the Church claims that becoming a priest or even a pope makes you reliably resistant to sin. People who sin or do moral wrong in some way are not necessarily horrible, unprincipled, non-idealistic - or even generally dislikable - persons. The point, as Hitchens quite rightly says, is not the existence of personal sin but the existence of a self-protective mechanism within the Church, profoundly self-serving rather than other-serving. There is something horrible about this.
April 18, 2008 6:04 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 18, 2008 18:04
Why is everyone believing the lie that Bernard Law is wanted by U.S. law enforcement? What he did was terrible but not (in the legal sense) criminal.
Google "Why Isn't Boston's Cardinal Law in Jail?"
April 18, 2008 4:19 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 18, 2008 16:19
"You can not expect a natural function to be supressed. The results are now being revealed, and not being dealt with truthfully."
Are you suggesting that celibacy turns healthy, normal men into homosexual predators (statistically, over 80% of the victims were males between the ages of 11 and 17)?
April 18, 2008 4:15 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 18, 2008 16:15
YoYo:
I'm guessing the magic word "presto" derives from "prestidigitation". Another bit of triv...apparently the words "hocus pocus" derive from the words a priest says at the moment communion wafers are transubstantiated i.e. "hoc est enim corpus meum".
April 18, 2008 1:18 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 18, 2008 13:18
I'm bemused by Hitch's Pecksniffian posturing in this whole affair.
Recall Hitchens was a professional apologist for genocidal Bolsheviks for most of his career as a lefty screed peddler. His greatest hero was one Lev Davidovich Bronstein (a.k.a. Leon Trotsky) "People's Commissar of War" and founder of the Russian Red Army which was itself guilty of perhaps the worst atrocities known to man up to that date with the possible exception of the reign of Ghengis Khan's Hordes.
One can total all clerical depredations ever committed, throw in the Spanish Inquisition and a half-dozen Crusades, and one would still fall far short of the rapine, pillage, and wanton murder of the Marxists in the 20th century alone by a factor of more than 100.
April 18, 2008 2:55 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 18, 2008 02:55
Hello Chris Everett,
Us religionists doth tend to resort to our most inventive invectives that can get pass the blog censors in Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris and Susan Jacoby's threads, don't we?
Makes for some spicy, tasty and testy posts but not rational, logical or reasonable ones. And it would be so boring for atheists if otherwise.:)
Cheers
"J"
April 17, 2008 10:37 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 22:37
Jihadist,
So I was being polemical - it's a Hitchens post, for goodness sake! I was responding to MHughes976 who couldn't see the intrinsic relationship between delusion and havoc. The pithy quotation is admittedly narrow. As you rightly point out, delusion encompasses more than just religion, and includes political utopianism as well. And mental illnesses like schizophrenia.
April 17, 2008 8:36 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 20:36
Hello Chris Everett :)
You : They say that good people do good things and bad people do bad things, but for a good person to do real evil - that takes religion."
Ahh...back to that again.
Because we are supposed to be good people after all. We got religion, so, we can't act like Pol Pot who is said by many close to him to be a "good" person in spite of being a non-religious sort incapable of real evil like molesting a child and getting away with it, only murdering millions, and just getting house arrest.
You are familiar with the phrase the "banality of evil" that originates from Hannah Arendt in her book, "Eichmann in Jerusalem".
Regards
"J"
April 17, 2008 7:00 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 19:00
Floridian, OK, I'll wait and see. Our eyes are on Law.
April 17, 2008 5:53 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 17:53
MHughes976,
You write "I don't see how belief in a superior being who is somehow concerned with our moral behaviour is likely of itself to produce immorality and filth."
In fact, to some extent this is the necessary outcome of a superstitious world view that thinks of morality as obedience to ancient religious strictures that were codified in a bygone era of ignorance and barbarism. Religious superstition blinds the believer to real morality, motivated by our natural ethical temperments and subject to rational analysis. Just look at Osama Bin Laden.
They say that good people do good things and bad people do bad things, but for a good person to do real evil - that takes religion.
April 17, 2008 5:46 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 17:46
Panner--
It seems reasonable to assume that since he's hammering on this issue much of his trip here this week, and has gone from talking about it to meeting with victims already, that he's on that path.
Anyone listening to him the past couple of days cannot help but feel that he's trying to remedy the situation as completely as he can and is taking accelerated steps to do that. For some people, however, it's clear that nothing--no action, no meeting, no words--will be enough to serve that purpose.
It's quite remarkable that this meeting has taken place, really. I doubt Hitchens anticipated it. And in the absence of anticipating further action, I suggest we all wait and see what else unfolds.
April 17, 2008 5:39 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 17:39
Floridian wrote: Benedict XVI met privately today with several victims of clergy sexual abuse from the Boston Archdiocese. That seems to go further than Hitchens imagined he would go, past remarks and regrets, to action.
Read Hitchens full views on Slate.com. He wants action, not meetings, including the return of Law to face charges.
Benedict should require that all priest child sex abusers be turned over immediately to civil authority for potential criminal prosecutrion. Absent that, his actions are a sham.
April 17, 2008 5:19 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 17:19
Carney,
You admit the Catechism has nothing on priestly child sex abuse.
You say it is covered by Canon Law, but that law is general.
You admit by your silence that the bishops, including Law, did nothing under canon law "to establish more specific norms" or "to pass judgment in particular cases."
Enough said.
April 17, 2008 5:10 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 17:10
The Vatican just issued a press release that Pope Benedict XVI met privately today with several victims of clergy sexual abuse from the Boston Archdiocese.
That seems to go further than Hitchens imagined he would go, past remarks and regrets, to action.
April 17, 2008 5:09 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 17:09
I don't see how belief in a superior being who is somehow concerned with our moral behaviour is likely of itself to produce immorality and filth. I do see that the creation of an institution that thinks itself sacred produces protection for the very un-sacred behaviour of individuals who are senior in that organisation, and for this the only cure is very courageous leadership, not clearly shown in this case. I have never had that kind of leadership responsibility so I can't say that I would have behaved better in such horrible circumstances.
April 17, 2008 5:07 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 17:07
Carney;
Check the stats.
Even the religious themselves are admitting concern with falling church attendence and falling enrollment in Seminaries and the priesthood.
Its not just the filth and moral squalor with which religion has always been tainted; the pedophilia no doubt goes way back to the beginning of the priestly profession; it's that religious thinking looks more and more the irrational superstitious nonsense that it really is - the smarter and more literate we become as a species.
Try as you superstitionists may, there's no stopping progress.
April 17, 2008 4:44 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 16:44
Anonymous writes:
"I agree, screw Hitchens, his war propaganda and his hair plugs!
Can't we deport this lout?"
Christopher Hitchens became an American citizen last year. Perhaps we should be asking if we could deport you instead?
April 17, 2008 3:13 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 15:13
The Pope is the most wonderful person on Earth. It's like having god among us. He is flawless, as is Catholicism.
Let's see if this post makes it through. Every post I've penned that express an opposite sentiment is being held by the blog owner.
April 17, 2008 3:08 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 15:08
Carney, with all due respect, and without intending to offend, but just asking, why is Law not up on charges in the Vatican for violating sub 3 of Canon 277?
April 17, 2008 3:07 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 15:07
Carney. No offense was intended, so do not be offended.
Nothing in the catechism. Okay.
It is in Canon law. Okay.
1983 CIC 277.
§ 1. Clerics are obliged to observe perfect and perpetual continence for the sake of the kingdom of heaven and therefore are bound to celibacy which is a special gift of God by which sacred ministers can adhere more easily to Christ with an undivided heart and are able to dedicate themselves more freely to the service of God and humanity.
§ 2. Clerics are to behave with due prudence towards persons whose company can endanger their obligation to observe continence or give rise to scandal among the faithful.
§3. The diocesan bishop is competent to establish more specific norms concerning this matter and to pass judgment in particular cases concerning the observance of this obligation.
Just what did diocesan bishops, like Law, do in this case?
April 17, 2008 2:05 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 14:05
Andrew, Yoyo, the Soviets once thought as you do. They're on the ash-heap of history.
April 17, 2008 1:47 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 13:47
People "love" religion for one main reason. It promises everlasting life. Trouble is the thoughtful among us are very skeptical of such promises. Anyone can promise anything. But reality shows that everything dies. Everything...without exception.
Once upon a time the only knowledge we had was told us through religion. Religion ruled the earth and would remove (or cure) those who doubted their "truth".
Those primitive times are long gone. Now we have science which shows that much of what the church told us over the eons was absolute nonsense; and universal literacy and worldwide education are spreading these realities, and now religion is on its knees praying for credibility and respectability when there is none for those who believe and promote irrational mumbo jumbo, the supernatural and magic that never actually works.
None of religions claims have ever been shown to be true. Only groupthink keeps religions alive; groupthink and childhood indoctrination; without which we'd all be atheists.
April 17, 2008 1:34 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 13:34
Neal;
Mmm...interesting word prestidigitation...had to look it up...conjuror. Yeah, I can dig it.
Religion's all about sleight of hand, you might say, and living with the cognitive dissonance, ie.'I know religion makes no sense but it's not supposed to make sense'.
I feel certain that religion will eventually go the way of alchemy and astrology, which also were marginalized by rationalism and post-enlightenment thinking, where once they had been extremely influential.
April 17, 2008 1:29 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 13:29
Panner, that's a vicious smear. I'll give you the benefit of a doubt and assume your ignorance, that you've just passed on a meme you picked up somewhere.
The Catechism is a document aimed at the wider world, both the Catholic faithful and non-Catholics.
For rules about how the Church is structured and how its clergy are to behave, you must turn to the Code of Canon Law, which in Canon 277§1 specifically forbids priests to engage in any sexual behavior whatsoever. Obviously that would include the underaged.
April 17, 2008 1:25 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 13:25
Yoyo the yoyo writes: "The recent awareness that children have been sexually abused by priests should have us all wondering if this is just a recent thing, or has this always happened in churches."
Or perhaps, just perhaps, it is a "thing" that has always happened in human society.
All are human, therefore, all sin.
You guys must have loved the Dan Brown fiction about the evil conspiracies of Catholics...
Do you also love the protocols of Zion?
Like they say, once a bigot....
April 17, 2008 1:14 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 13:14
Catholics, please check your 1988 catechism for priestly pedophilia and priestly child abuse, and report back to us. Take your time. There is nothing there.
But masturbation is in the index and is a seriously disordered act.
So, they are told that a victimless act is very wrong, but told nothing about permanent personal injury to an underage person.
Just great.
April 17, 2008 1:11 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 13:11
YoYo:
When dealing with an organization that has 1,970+ years worth of experience in mental prestidigitation under its sash, we are also perhaps well advised to keep our eyes focused, unblinkingly, on the hand that *isn't* being frantically waved about e.g. the recently touted "wider agenda".
April 17, 2008 12:56 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 12:56
The recent awareness that children have been sexually abused by priests should have us all wondering if this is just a recent thing, or has this always happened in churches.
Common sense should tell us that this has been happening all along, but it's only now - with the modern media everywhere all the time, that we understand anything about it. If we'd had an active media a thousand years ago, we'd have long been aware that pedophilia was endemic among cloistered men from the very beginning. But children in those days had nowhere to turn - except to the Church. (O the irony of "Suffer little children to come unto me").
And we know how the church has always reacted to bad and lurid accusations. Deny deny deny.
The last place to turn to for truth about anything is the Church; any church.
April 17, 2008 12:10 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 12:10
Hey Kenneth
Right on these apologists for abuse are so unchristian that I am puzzled why they are so intent on defending the RC Church, is it because the institution is itself long past being a Christian institution and simply a business.
April 17, 2008 11:37 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 11:37
Hey Mike:
Wow if I ever had a doubt about my departure from the RC church. A church to which my family had belonged to for over a thousand years, and in defense of they were forced to leave the old country your callousness and insensitivity removes any remaining doubt.
I like all of my siblings and most of my cousins have left that wretched insipid institution I doubt that it will survive the century.
It is no longer the institution of Aquinas, Becket or Moore, it is now the church of Bernard Law and the Nazi Pope.
To those of you who still believe in that faith try the Greek Orthodox church which is recognized as a true faith even by the RC Church, it has transubstantiation and all the rest, with out all the baggage.
April 17, 2008 11:15 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 11:15
The sex scandal in the Catholic Church was ,in my opinion,a crime on two levels.The first was the spiritual level in which a minister of God betrayed his trust and victimized the helpless who looked up to him as a role model and spiritual guide,and led him into the dark-side of life and sin.This made the spiritual life an ugly sham and a hypocritical lie.
The second level was, this was a Felony in secular Life and as such the Offender should have been turned over to the authorities.By the fact that he was not the Bishop who sheltered him also broke secular law and incurred that guilt as well.The fact that they were priests should not have mitigated this guilt.
April 17, 2008 11:10 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 11:10
Hey SPEED as priest abuse which was made up out of sodomy and rape was the whole point of the original post that is what I wrote about.
I could have like you been totally off topic and brought up the Popes service of the Nazi regime and his total inaction in helping out the victims of the holocaust as it occurred, but again that would have been off topic
You are so off point of the original blog in your attempt to divert the eyes of the reader.
Perhaps as you seem to be obsessed with public schools you have some phobia against public schools.
Perhaps you are simply in able to focus on the original issue because you have one of the new age disease which do not allow you to focus take a large dose of Ritalin read the original post and then perhaps you will see how all of your posts have been off the point.
Next time you post to a post blog as you can not stay on topic please try to find a blog that has something to do with your agenda.
April 17, 2008 10:41 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 10:41
Mike wrote:
I am no longer sympathetic towards the victims - I don't even respond during Mass whenever we pray for them...
I am sick of all the jokes I have to hear at work about rapist priests, I am sick of the Pope bashing, I am sick of anti-Catholicism in general, and I am definitely sick of people talking about this issue like they REALLY give a damn!
...And I swear, if I hear one more "used to be" Catholic talking bad about the Church... I think I'm gonna lose it. I love the Church, I love the Holy Father, and I love our Priests...
---------------------------------------------
Mike,
I used to be Catholic and I have to agree with you. People who were molested deserve only scorn.
It also sounds like you're in love with priests, I've heard they like it if their lovers dress up like an alter boys so you might have to do a little shopping.
Although you might be sick of Pope jokes, here's one...
Q: What did the dad say to the priest at the beach?
A: Please get out of my son!
April 17, 2008 10:37 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 10:37
I mean, with defenders like yourself around, it's just inconceivable that all those thousands of traumatized kids could have been abused and afraid to come forward, just cause of a few bishops, of course.
They must be making it up. Cause they hate you. Right. Good thing you don't really give em something to cry about, right?
April 17, 2008 9:34 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 09:34
Wow, Mike, speaking of 'systemic abuse.'
April 17, 2008 9:23 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 09:23
Mike,
Maybe if the Catholic Church would "behave" there'd be fewer jokes. And I'm sure the victims (and yes, the "victims", in scare quotes) will continue to hire lawyers and win their cases if they have merit.
As to Speed123's comments about secular teacher's abuse of students, I've yet to hear of a public school system or the U.S. Department of Education enabling and covering up said activities.
April 17, 2008 8:15 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 08:15
April 16, 5:27 etc. some other "Gerry" imposing. ("Reed...").
Not my style of writing.
Gerry, atheist.
April 17, 2008 4:18 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 04:18
Well your hunch is wrong Mr. Psychic. I AM a Catholic, my Parish DID merge and closed the building that my family helped build, and I AM sick of all the talk about victims. I am no longer sympathetic towards the victims - I don't even respond during Mass whenever we pray for them. YOU can say "Lord hear our prayer" if you feel like it, but I'm not praying for them ANY MORE. I am sick of all the jokes I have to hear at work about rapist priests, I am sick of the Pope bashing, I am sick of anti-Catholicism in general, and I am definitely sick of people talking about this issue like they REALLY give a damn! Especially non-Catholics! Stop acting like you care - you just hate the Church and this scandal just gives you something to beat us Catholics over the head with. And I swear, if I hear one more "used to be" Catholic talking bad about the Church... I think I'm gonna lose it. I love the Church, I love the Holy Father, and I love our Priests... I shouldn't have to put up with this garbage any more. You’re all lucky I'm not a Muslim - I'm just a bad Catholic who tries to be a "good" enough Catholic to not knock your teeth out of the back of your head.
April 17, 2008 3:09 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 03:09
(Just when I *needed* a post to *not* go through because of a glaring typo...)
*You guys may owe me.
April 17, 2008 3:06 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 03:06
I'd just wanted to point out that the blog's technical problems seemed to have abated somewhat since I wrote an open letter to the His Eminence...Immenseness(?)...whatever...on another thread beseeching his assistance. Coincidence? You guys owe may me.
April 17, 2008 3:00 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 03:00
PS - my guess is that "Mike" is an non-Catholic trying to cause trouble...just a hunch...
April 17, 2008 1:18 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 01:18
PS - Warren obviously has some mental issues here and a strange focus on the actions of sodomy and rape.
A therapist or someone to talk to would be much better for you than a WAPO blog, in my opinion.
Living with such hate inside is never good...
In all honesty, best of luck.
April 17, 2008 1:14 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 01:14
I am so far past the point of being sick and tired of hearing about the poor "victims." I couldn't care less about the "victims" anymore. Most of them are money grubbing selfish liars anyway, I figure at least half of the people who claimed to be abused were lying through their teeth. I was abused too - by my (public) grade school teacher. And like these "victims" it was years ago - you don't see me trying to force the county school system into bankruptcy. But here we have a bunch of morons crying to any other moron who will listen about crap that happened (or didn't happen) to them decades ago. Go ahead "victims" - go hire a lawyer and come get your money - just don't ask me to shed tears for you when you caused my parish to close down - and I can no longer go to Mass at a church that my Great Great Grandfather helped build with his brothers and cousins. These "victims" have become the victimizers.
April 17, 2008 1:12 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 01:12
You guys are sheep...
Read the AP report on abuse in public schools- don't take my word for it.
Abuse is wrong - horrible - but it is wrong in horrible in schools, as well as in churches.
PS - abuse occurs in families - by Jews, Buddhist, Catholics, Protestants and Atheists...
Get real - and think for yourselves (if you can get beyond your bigotry, that is)
Goggle "AP report on public school abuse" - 2500 teachers reported to have abused thousand and thousand of kids in only 5 YEARS!
April 17, 2008 1:08 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 01:08
Hitchens is such a bore.
He has nothing to say about the safety and welfare of children except when it is easy to kick the leader of a religious group that he dislikes. The other 364 days of the year, he is complaining about something else.
Well Mr. Hitchen, more people died at Chappaquiddick Bridge than have ever died in any church sex abuse scandal.
April 17, 2008 12:47 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 00:47
Speed:
You are in total denial. To even try to compare a school teacher in the public school system with a PRIEST? My god.
April 17, 2008 12:20 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 00:20
Speed:
Stop protecting your church by clouding the issue with non topical side arguments.
And I am not an atheist, I am a Buddhist.
April 17, 2008 12:10 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 17, 2008 00:10
Speed:
Again no specifics. Just obtuse un-substantiated allegations.
If it makes me a bigot to be against predator priests raping and sodomizing children (over 11,000 in the us alone,) then I will gladly be a bigot, rather that than an apologist for people like Chicago's Cardinal George a close friend of El Popa who allowed just recently a predator priest to remain around children.
If you allege abuse by the public schools
Name the School District,
Name the Superintendent
Name the School Committee
that allowed Sodomy, Rape, molestation of children to continue for generations.
April 16, 2008 11:59 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 16, 2008 23:59
Correction - teachers fired for sexual abuse were done so "without marks on their record"
How exactly do you think the guy was re-hired at a new school system, Warren?
Try to think instead of reciting "new" atheist propaganda about how religious people are evil and secular people are good.
Think and read, Warren...there is the same problems in the schools etc. that are in any church.
It is wrong to shuffle abusers from churches; however, it is ALSO wrong to do so in schools.
To pretend it doesnt happen - or to only focus on the catholic instance of it - either makes you ignorant or a bigot...
April 16, 2008 11:40 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 16, 2008 23:40
Warren babbles: "You mention one person who was fired, this person was not protected by his superiors and shipped around from school to school systematically raping and molesting his students."
Warren, you obviously didn't read the whole report - teachers who molested dozens of times were protected by unions and principles. They may have been let go - but they were done so with marks on their record...or bad references...because they were protected by the system.
In fact just last week a elementary school teacher was found in a hotel with a 14 and 15 year old smoking weed and naked...
Is this the secular teachers that are supposed to protect and teach our kids??
Stop protecting secular perverts and sodomites in the school Warren...
April 16, 2008 11:31 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 16, 2008 23:31
Benedict told reporters. "If I read the stories of these victims, it is difficult for me to understand how it was possible that priests betrayed in this way their mission to give healing, to give love of God to these children."
Excuse me pope, most of the priests believed they WERE giving the love of God to these children who were seeking to them for guidance and more.....
PS, your holiness, how many holes are you supposed to have before you are considered holy?
April 16, 2008 11:21 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 16, 2008 23:21
Benedict is just like John Paul.
A Bad Shepherd that cares more for the other shepherds than the sheep.
April 16, 2008 11:04 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 16, 2008 23:04
Speed
Your argument is again baseless and just a pathetic attempt to divert eyes from the issue of Sodomy and rape of children by perverts hiding behind the cloth.
You mention one person who was fired, this person was not protected by his superiors and shipped around from school to school systematically raping and molesting his students.
The fact that this person was rehired is not indicative of a complex conspiracy to enable child molestation as was with the Catholic church. It is not indicative of his being protected by a school system or superintendent just that he was fired and rehired by another system because of a lack of oversight and poor vetting of a teacher candidate.
There is a difference between a superior and organizations complicity in assaults on children and poor hiring practices.
Name the school system name the superintendent that has such duplicity in a teachers actions that come any where equal to what the RC church did.
How many school systems have gone bankrupt as a result of sexual misconduct that was condoned by higher ups, None
Now how many churches in Boston alone have closed so the land they sit on could be sold, The archdiocese even had to sell the cardinal's residence and the seminary grounds to pay for their transgressions.
Name one public school that had to be sold to pay for superior condoned sexual misconduct, again none.
April 16, 2008 10:52 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 16, 2008 22:52
Anonymous wrote:
--"I agree, screw Hitchens, his war propaganda and his hair plugs! Can't we deport this lout?"
Deport him because of hair plugs or for voicing an opinion against the Catholic Church? If it's the latter, then no...not since about the 16th century or so.
April 16, 2008 10:42 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 16, 2008 22:42
Hear, hear, Christopher! Well said. For too long the Catholic Church has had this problem, as you phrased it in your recent book, of 'No Child's Behind Left'.
The extent of the molestation of children at the hands of Roman Catholic clergy is astounding, though I need to add it is by no means an exclusively Catholic problem. Of course, almost as bad as the actual transgressions committed are the cover ups and opacity of the hierarchy in regards to their crimes.
April 16, 2008 10:32 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 16, 2008 22:32
Jihadist, Well Met!
You have given us the only bright spot on this whole damned blog. Please keep it up! Go get 'em!
Arminius
April 16, 2008 10:31 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 16, 2008 22:31
Jihadist,
Jesus the Zombie! Rowwrrrr!!!
Classic.
April 16, 2008 10:30 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 16, 2008 22:30
If one believes Bible stories and also believes that Jesus is an eternal, indivisible part of the Trinity, it would seem that a reasonable case can be made that Jesus was actually responsible for far worse in regards to Canaanite and Egyptian children. Perhaps that's why the Church initially failed to appreciate the seriousness of the actions of some of its clerics. After all, it's not like those clerics slaughtered babies or anything.
Still, it's odd that a religion ostensibly guided by an omnipotent and omniscient Holy Spirit would need to be schooled on morality by secular authorities.
April 16, 2008 10:27 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 16, 2008 22:27
Oh there "Reality Challenged" and Obfuscating Jihadist,
The global community awaits for the apologies from the president and ayatollas of Iran and also from the King of Saudi Arabia and his "wannabees" for supporting the 24/7 terror activities gripping the world today.
And since heaven is a spirit state as per Aquinas, there are no physical bodies there i.e. Jesus did not rise and ascend to heaven and there also were no flying chariots stopping by with any raving Moslems on board.
April 16, 2008 10:04 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 16, 2008 22:04
I agree, screw Hitchens, his war propaganda and his hair plugs!
Can't we deport this lout?
April 16, 2008 10:04 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 16, 2008 22:04
So true, Andrew, as are all the rest of the posters on this blog who see through Hitch's outrageous over-statements, and over-simplications of a complex matter of the many cases which were settled, in lieu of litigation, where probably well over half of those who "claimed" TO BE ABUSED, IN FACT WERE NOT, BUT THEY SURE WANTED THE MONEY, THOSE BOTTOMLESS POCKETS OF THE CHURCH, NOW DIDN'T THEY? AND THEY GOT IT, BECAUSE THE CHURCH SETTLED THE CASES, RATHER THAN GOING TO TRIAL-BECAUSE I CAN TELL YOU THIS MUCH, HITCH- IF THOSE POOR LITTLE EFFED UP YOUNG MEN WHO WANTED TO JUMP ON THE CATHOLIC MONEY BANDWAGON HAD TO ACTUALLY PROVE DAMAGES, THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE TO DO, QUITE APART FROM THEIR OVER-EXAGGERATION OF THEIR ALLEGED "ABUSE." I'm not saying there weren't a lot of legitimate cases, BUT THERE WERE WORST CASES THAT WERE COVERED UP BY PRIESTS IN CANADA AND IRELAND, AS WELL AS ITALY, TO NAME A FEW OTHER COUNTRIES-THIS COUNTRY HAS FACED UP TO THE PROBLEMS IN THE CHURCH AND ACTIVELY SOUGHT TO REMEDY THE SITUATION IN A MYRIAD OF WAYS ON MANY DIFFERENT LEVELS.
But Hitch is worthless on topics like this-the only reason he gets yet another, YET ANOTHER BLOG ON THIS TOPIC IS BECAUSE BFF SALLY QUINN ALLOWED HIM TO PUT IT OUT THERE AGAIN-SO HE COULD SHOW HOW SUPERIOR HE IS, IN HIS "LOOK AT ME, I'M AN ATHEIST, AREN'T I SUPERIOR? MODE.
Hitch is a lout and a lush besides-he doesn't quite so obtuse as long as he sticks to political issues, quite apart from his support for the carnage of the Iraq war, which although different from the point he is making in this blog, does show him to be more than a little hypocritical, and more than a little intellectually dishonest. But HITCH IS AN INTELLECTUAL, YOU SEE, SO OF COURSE THERE'S NO INCONSISTENCY, NO INTELLECTUAL DISHONESTY WHATSOEVER IN HIS POSITION ABOUT HOLDING THE CHURCH RESPONSIBLE FOR A COLLECTIVE COVER-UP OF WHAT I DON'T KNOW, AND BEING ALL RAH RAH FOR A WAR THAT HAS KILLED HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF MEN WOMEN AND CHILDREN -no intellectual dishonesty whatsoever in those two positions, now is there, you big prat!
And it IS true, Hitch your ugly statements do in fact border on libel, but it's easy to take a cheap shot at the church, because you know they won't respond, particularly when you're an INTELLECTUAL AND an ATHEIST-WOOOOO! TOUGH GUY WITH THE TOUGH WORDS!
April 16, 2008 9:24 PM |