Professor, why don't you just become Episcopalian? You obviously think you are smarter than the Pope - so leave - go to another church.

Oh there "Reality Challenged" and Obfuscating Jihadist,

Equal opportunity you say and preach? You forgot to add, "Unless you are a low-life Shiite infidel"!!!!!

Athena, the church does teach that the three Marys were the first to announce the news of the risen savior. It is also a basic teaching of Catholicism that the blessed mother, by saying "yes" to the angel of the annunciation, became the very first Christian. (She had a choice, by the way.)

All the material is there, it's just the applications that are missing.

PGeorge1: "However, if we were to make this complementarity a ground for discrimination we are not being truthful to the Christian faith. There is a question of "equality", too."

As you know, equality is not the same as equal opportunity - equal access to opportunity regardless of gender, race, and for the differently abled is what is strived for. It will still have to be based on ability and desire to pursue a certain profession or calling.

There is no reason for those of the female sex, of a minority ethnic group, or is differently abled to be deprived of opportunity and access to do whatever he or she wants if committed, qualified and able. Racist and sexist impulses are still strong in whatever profession traditionally dominated by males of the majority ethnicity of any country. They make the rules and enforced them with all sorts of rationalisations and justifications for those rules.

This you already know.

--------------------------------------------------

Beck Childs: "Hysterical feminists don't make me afraid, they make me laugh."

Glad to hear that. Some feminists can be hysterically funny. Do look up and read Gloria Steinem's classic, "If Men Could Menstruate". You'll die laughing.

Some misogynists are also hysterically funny too in their hysterical and histrionic reactions to demands by women and minorities to be in their traditional bastions of dominance.

I don't see why women should not be Pope. Was there not a legendary and mythical Pope Joan?

One must also have infallible taste in materials and tailors for one's attires that comes with the post. Any woman would love to be in those Papal attires. The red shoes are simply divine. And love that broad brimmed hat too. The Vatican can do with bit of redecorating. Too old fashioned.

Should a Brigade of Interior Decorators be along with the Battleaxe Brigade of Catholic Feminists to take over the Vatican?

We should all lighten up. The world will not come to an end with a few women in the clergy.

Cheers

"J"

The Church conveniently forgets that the first person to proclaim the news of the risen Christ was a woman - Mary Magdalene. She was cut out of a lot of the early Church because Peter didn't like her (or was jealous of her relationship with Jesus).

That men and women are complementary has been the position of John Paul II and Benedict XVI. However, if we were to make this complementarity a ground for discrimination we are not being truthful to the Christian faith. There is a question of "equality", too. Today, in secular society there is no job a woman is excluded from, so why would the Church continue to say no to women's ordination to the priesthood?

To say that Jesus chose only men to be priests is not a valid objection. The men chosen by Jesus were all Jews, so, does that mean that non-Jewish men cannot become priests? It is said that the Church's tradition does not allow for women priests. If so, the Church tolerated slavery, too.

If the Pope's message of hope is to become a reality and not remain a mere fuzzy and vaporous idea, it is time to come terms with the demand for women priests. It will be a step forward in the direct direction and I'm sure, according to the mind of Jesus.

"I wish the Pope would finally tell us the "H" stands for as Jesus middle initial."

Hussein. ;)

I'm sorry but I'm not so intelligent as to know my role as a man, husband, or father when I started out. Societies standards help young people when they lack the PhDs. The Church's standards are moral values and have been proven to best for society over thousands of years. Contrast to the feminist standards which have never been proven best but rather more destructive to a society. You see, us great unwashed, uneducated don't need to rediscover philosophy to raise moral children and be productive law abiding citizens when we simply embrace those complementary roles.

Oh there "Reality Challenged" and Obfuscating Jihadist,

Being a member of the more intelligent females of Malaysia, why is it you cannot understand that:

"Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/ plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" aka "pretty wingie thingies" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds these acts of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia."

With said understanding it, would be obvious that the male and female imams and clerics have been brainwashing Muslims for the last 1400 years and you would quickly "pink slip" all of them converting Mecca to the next and possibly greatest Disney World.

If I think that you are wrong, it's not fear. You wish it was fear, apparently to make you feel better about yourself. Wrong is, quite simply, wrong. Hysterical feminists don't make me afraid, they make me laugh.

Mike : Current feminists are a collection of male hating racist free loaders. You don't have to fear them to loathe them as a group. It isn't fear that keeps most of us from taking a bath in a cesspool - It's disgust!!!"

Moi : Fear and loathing of women?

It is good that the Catholic Church is against abortion. We women are thus, not deprived of the pleasure of giving birth to, caring for and listening to men thinking and speaking as you do.

I, of course, as a human cesspool, love men who have fear and loathing of women. They belong in my cesspool and it is not disgusting at all for me to take them in.

Hope you get re-baptised to clease your mind, body and soul this Sunday in church after being in my disgusting cesspool.

Cheers
"J"

M. Dean : I am thrilled with the Pontiff's stance against these ball busting unfeminine - altar clambering females. I am sick of the Battleaxe Brigades in the our modern Roman Catholic Church. Ladies, be seated and shut up.

Moi : Ohhhh....okay. I will sit and shut up. Oh my! I just remember. I am not a Catholic. Excuse me. My bad. I will take my Battleaxe Brigade out of the church to go to the mosque. Too bad we don't have altar boys there. They are all so cute and irrestible to us unfeminine, clambering females.

Cheers

"J"

Interim and ad hoc member in this thread of:
LAW (Ladies Against Women)
OUT (Outrageous Uppity Tramps)

P.S.
Convert to Islam. You can have up to four wives who will serve your every desire, every need, every want in your fantasy and you'll feel better about women.

I wish the Pope would finally tell us the "H" stands for as Jesus middle initial.

Ms. M. Cathleen Kaveny,

Thanks for your essay. Sounds familiar and quite relatable to Islam and its ulema on women in the ulema and women-related issues. Some men are the same, no? in spite of different race and religion.

Freud asked, "What do women want?"

I now tend to regard women in the public sphere, including on and in religious matters more realistically, having seen how women are still not quite equal or treated with respect in China and Japan, rather secular societies, and even in the Scandinavian countries where not many women helm high posts in both the private and public sector. It is also due women's personal choices as much as sexism where it exists in individual men.

Going by statistics from many countries, women are proven to attain generally higher academic achievements than men in education. More in some fields than others. If universities do not impose quotas for "gender balance" in favour of men, women would be more than 60% of students at tertiary level.

I am not too sure about the US, but in Malaysia, they actually lowered the academic standards of entry for men as women already comprise some 60% of university students. This was objected to by even some men in lowering the bar instead of maintaining it as standards for academic excellence to strive for.

The only positive thing that comes out of this is that, some members of the ulema who stated women are "lesser" than men mentally and thus only men are rightly to lead in every area, now ceased to do so to rationalise their objection and marginalisation of women in the public sphere.

They may not object to women as politicians or in secular fields, but are still leery of and object to women being Grand Muftis, muftis. For women as kadis and imams (to lead women only prayers), there seem to be more flexibility.

They accept women as members of the ulema as acknowlegeded specialists and experts in specific areas of the Shariah, including Islamic jurisprudence and Islamic banking and financial services. They are holding back from letting women be Grand Muftis or Muftis, those with the right to issue fatwas. A long way to go, but thank God fatwas can be questioned when issued as it is not cast in stone, but only an opinion to be complied at the personal level or otherwise.

It seems to work best when we state the obvious - women and men are undeniably different and we complement one another in life. Reminding balking male members of the ulema that women is God's greatest gift to men (in the bedroom, in the home, in the workplace) also works with some to get discussions on women's rights and concerns going with them. Whatever it takes to engage some men on women's issues :)

Thanks and regards

"J"

r s newark- i enjoyed your comment on another question- however i've read so many posts i can't remember which one at this point-

i posted a quote by the same miss jean brody earlier- in response to a discussion between fate and neal obstat where neal mused that "once a catholic always a catholic" might refer to the indelible spiritual 'imprimatur' (my words) at baptism on catholic souls-

i have always understood it to be a reference to the indoctrination process being so impermeably marked upon the psyche of people- unaware of it even into old age-

and it reminded me of the quote, " Give me a girl at an impressionable age, and she is mine for life!"

however, my post was held for approval (as many are lately it seems)

peace

I FELT SO HAPPY, READING THIS COLUMN.AS A MOTHER OF NINE CHILDREN, I KNEW WHAT MY STATION IN LIFE WAS GOING TO BE...NO REGRETS, I WOULD DO THIS ALL OVER AGAIN..MY CHILDREN BROUGHT THE FAMILY MUCH HAPPINESS TO US ALL..TODAY MY OLDEST SON IS 61YRS,OF AGE..THE YOUNGEST IS 43..I AM 84 YRS.OLD.

NEVER DID I FEEL THAT I WAS LOCKED IN TO A LIFE OF
KITCHEN,CLEANING AND CHURCH. SEEING EACH CHILD AS INDIVIDUALS,ALWAYS TELLING THEM I LOVED THEM AND SO DID THEIR HARD WORKING FATHER,MADE THEM SMILE AND SKIP AROUND HAPPILY.
NEVER DID A DAY PASS, THAT I MENTIONED THE DEVIL WAS AFTER THEIR SOULS, TO BE ALERT WHEN I TOLD THEM IF IN DOUBT WHAT WOULD JESUS OR OUR BLESSED
MOTHER DO..KEEPING THE TEN COMMANDMENTS WAS A GOOD
TICKET INTO HEAVEN..TELLING LIES WAS# 11.

WE SAID THE FAMILY ROSARY EVERY SATURDAY PM..
THE FAMILY THAT PRAYS TOGETHER, STAYS TOGETHER

GOD HAS BLESSED US ALL, EACH AND EVERY ONE. AMEN

It is of interest to note that no women - indeed no lay persons - were permitted to administer the Eucharist at the Washington Mass, but only priests and deacons. I was recently shocked to discover that a deacon was hearing my mother's confessions and administering the sacrament of absolution. How is this permitted? The sacrifice of a priest I can respect, but not that of a deacon. I have a male relative of very lax morality who is a deacon.

We already know the bar on women has no basis in the Gospel or history, but Benedict has set this rectificaton back a couple of hundred years. As Cardinal Ratzinger, he put forth the novel idea that the ban on women priests came from a theretofore unknown phenomenon of the infallibility of Church doctrine. Really.

I think that they are referring to tendencies that differ among men and women, which justifies, not limits, the necessity for collaboration between men and women. We have moved past the idea that all men and all women are the same when we begin considering the differences inherent in their basic biology.

Same old Sally stuff. Set up a straw man and try to knock him down. Even that's not easy for Sally. What you are too ignorant of is that anyone can achieve a holiness beyond that of a mere Priest, although it does take a type of spiritual work so many are unused to. But then: "Nothing infuriates people more than their own lack of spiritual insight". Muriel Spaark in The Prime of Miss Jean Brody.

We must always resist the admission of evidence contrary to our case. And, we must endeavour to get a jury with minds already made up in our favor. That's what "On Faith" is all about. Congratulations, lawyers for the faith fit right in.

Mike: "Current feminists are a collection of male hating racist free loaders."

Mike, These people you refer to as feminists do not hate all males, they just hate people like you, and for reasons that are obvious from your way of talking about them.

The bar against women in the clergy of the catholic church is merely a tradition. It has no true basis in the teachings of Jesus. Rather, it is a misinterpretation deliberately perpetuated by the bias of misogynistic men.

The same misogynistic men who fear and loath the concept of "married priests". The same men who by their very behavior show themselves to be mentally and sexually dysfunctional. The same men who's greatest goal is to force the rest of the world into their twisted mold.

I'm not saying there aren't a lot of good catholic men and women; and I'm not saying that there aren't a lot of good catholic priests. But the traditions they are operating under really ought to be dragged out in to bright daylight and ruthlessly, rationally, and dispassionately examined for validity by ALL men and women, NOT by the exclusive cliche of old men already in power.

Not permanently, I hope, Vie. (Hi, btw.)

Not sure if they fixed the post-munching yet, but that might help, as it tends to be frustrating. I'm going to be away from the keys for a few days, myself, anyway. Kind of stressful subject matter for me to spend too much time on, anyway.

What is wrong with this site? Have half the intelligent commenters given up?

ISTM what is wrong with the church's approach to gender differences is the same thing that is wrong with any approach that treats likelihoods as facts. A larger percentage of women are said to be more intuitive, tender and nurturing. Setting aside whether such a claim has even been proved, it tells nothing about the abilities or interests of any particular woman or man.
I like the football analogy. Women generally are smaller and less muscular than men, but does that assume that any random man you pick out on the street is guaranteed to be bigger and/or faster than any random woman? What if you come back with Serena Williams and Andy Dick? Football teams (or fire departments, etc.) should not be required to relax their requirements in order to recruit women, but the job should be available to those women who can handle it.
The church falls back on the argument that the twelve apostles were men. They were also Jewish and married; why not require those qualities as well? But now I'm being deliberately absurd.

...and Concerned CNL: if you think Paul is bad, check out St. Jerome's "Letter to Eustochium."

CTCNL sez and I have no reason to doubt, "Professor Chilton btw is a Professor of Religion at Bard College and a priest at the Free Church of St. John in Barrytown, NY."

Professor Chilton isn't fighting them she's joining them. That must be the solution to the gender problem or is that the problem, women getting in on "it." They pass the plate at the Free Church of St. John in Barrytown, NY or is this the one place where the teachings of Jesus, "sell all your earthly possessions..." is done?

That was Lucifer in the burning bush promising the big money to those willing to lead the multitudes to hell. Women can do that better than men with their soft voices and flowing hair. That HB fellow says Moses was a woman.

Just a couple questions.

Are there any examples of societies where women play(ed) an equal role to men?

Is religion the solution or the problem?

Maybe if half of the Notre Dame football team was women that would level the gender playing field?

Could job and not gender be the determining factor?

Are there any civilizations of record not characterized by religion?

Any religion yet have a verified base for it's dogma?

How many witnesses saw Eve take a bite of the forbidden fruit?

What are the chances the supernatural being in the burning bush was really a devil?

It can all be traced back to "prude Paul".

Professor Bruce Chilton pulls no punches in criticizing one of the founders of Christianity. Basically Paul was a "prude". An excerpt for Chilton's book,

"He (St. Paul) feared the turn-on of women's voices as much as the sight of their hair and skin..... At one point he even suggests that the sight of female hair might distract any "pretty wingie talking fictional thingies" aka angels in church attendance (1 Cor. 11:10). Simply add Paul's thinking about women to the list of flaws in the foundations of Christianity.

Professor Chilton btw is a Professor of Religion at Bard College and a priest at the Free Church of St. John in Barrytown, NY.