All Comments (15)

To Eric Jansson: How would you like your kids to be forced to say Muslim prayers or Scientologist prayers (if Scientologists pray)? Or even if they were not forced to pray, how would you like them to be forced to listen to officially sanctioned Muslim, Scientology, or Mormon prayers--or perhaps chant, Buddhist style? Wouldn't like it? Then maybe you can see why people feel "threatened" when Christian prayers are shoved down their kids' throats. It has nothing to do with the efficacy of the prayers. It has to do with a parent's right to supervise his or her kids' religious upbringing without being undermined by the schools.

Freedomlover has a good point. Show me two Catholics, Mormons, Pagans, etc who agree exactly with each other in their personal beliefs.

Personal beliefs are just that - personal.

The reason there has been a backlash about prayer in school is exactly what Anthony said. Neochristians are more interested in intolerance, exclusion, judgement, hate and shutting of others than they are about Christ's words.

The devout get their feeling hurt when others challenge their ideas of their own private theocracy in America. We have to do this or we will all be sending money to Roberton and Dobson or bowing to the Pope.

Gates, "True Believers" seem to think they are entitled to. Your very question supports that attitude. The implication of your question is that you ask how dare we question your God, or your faith, or your right to dictate laws based on your faith that will coerce "non-believers" to abide by your faith."
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Not so, I believe that God expects those who are searching for truth to questions him as to sustained truth. Otherwise how would we know?

But thank you for your response. I would love to stay and talk further but I have to get my nails done. It was nice talking with you.

Lacey, "Why always the put down about God? We all know that a lot of people believe in him and a lot of people do not believe in him.

Why can't we just accept that we believe differently and stop condemning people for the way that they believe?

I don't mind a healthy discussion regarding religion but it is the hatred spewed about God and those that believe in him that is an "instant turn-off."

!!!

This is, of course, nonsense! The posts here are not "spewing hatred against God". Nor do they "hate" the people who worship God, (By the way, which God are you referring to?) They, and the article in question, are pointing out the fact that (in America) religions are not entitled to government support as so many "True Believers" seem to think they are entitled to. Your very question supports that attitude. The implication of your question is that you ask how dare we question your God, or your faith, or your right to dictate laws based on your faith that will coerce "non-believers" to abide by your faith. THAT is what drives the response you find so objectionable - not a specific God, nor the followers of that God.

FreedomLover : "Any astute observer will notice that even devout religious individuals/leaders seem to agree exactly what God's Will is for society. The Bible is not clear either: For example, show me one verse where Jesus ever directly spoke on the topics of abortion or gays. (Answer: there are none; but that does not prevent some religious groups fro "infering" these edicts from the OT

One obvious reason why religious groups can't agree is there is no display external (divine) show of force -- say a lightening bolt -- to show who has gotten it right.

So either God does not want to stop the disharmony, God is far removed from the ordinary events of people, or there is even no God.

In this environment is there any surprise that
authoritarian minded individuals will seek the powers of the government to prop up their religion and/or enforce it upon others?

A country that loves freedom and liberty should be ever vigilent in opposing such authoritarians! Our Founding Fathers did just that. It is the secret why this country became a great nation."

!!!!!!!

Not so, there is scripture reference regarding Gays, but not about abortion.

Why always the put down about God? We all know that a lot of people believe in him and a lot of people do not believe in him.

Why can't we just accept that we believe differently and stop condemning people for the way that they believe?

I don't mind a healthy discussion regarding religion but it is the hatred spewed about God and those that believe in him that is an "instant turn-off."

Any astute observer will notice that even devout religious individuals/leaders cannot agree on exactly what God's Will is for society.

The Bible is not clear either: For example, show me one verse where Jesus ever directly spoke on the topics of abortion or gays. (Answer: there are none; but that does not prevent some religious groups fro "inferring" these edicts from the OT

One obvious reason why religious groups can't agree is there is no display external (divine) show of force -- say a lightening bolt -- to show who has gotten it right.

So either God does not want to stop the disharmony, God is far removed from the ordinary events of people, or there is even no God.

In this environment is there any surprise that authoritarian minded individuals will seek the powers of the government to prop up their religion and/or enforce it upon others?

A country that loves freedom and liberty should be ever vigilant in opposing such authoritarians! Our Founding Fathers did just that. It is the secret why this country became a great nation.

Any astute observer will notice that even devout religious individuals/leaders seem to agree exactly what God's Will is for society. The Bible is not clear either: For example, show me one verse where Jesus ever directly spoke on the topics of abortion or gays. (Answer: there are none; but that does not prevent some religious groups fro "infering" these edicts from the OT

One obvious reason why religious groups can't agree is there is no display external (divine) show of force -- say a lightening bolt -- to show who has gotten it right.

So either God does not want to stop the disharmony, God is far removed from the ordinary events of people, or there is even no God.

In this environment is there any surprise that
authoritarian minded individuals will seek the powers of the government to prop up their religion and/or enforce it upon others?

A country that loves freedom and liberty should be ever vigilent in opposing such authoritarians! Our Founding Fathers did just that. It is the secret why this country became a great nation.

i suspect jesus had pretty close to right when he simply said give unto caesar what is caesars and give unto God what is Gods. It doesn't argue for seperate but equal parts of ones life because in truth there are times when in human lives there is the need for something that benifits all with an over arching oneness in infrastructure that could not be done by the many different splinters of individual beliefs to where the shared responsibilities of all truely is a bargan when confronted to the idea of each group only interacting with like people we see the true greed of small people in high places when asked to simply have a flat tax that everyone wouuld pay in a equal percentage they refuse obviously because they are paying less than thier share in reality and want the false smoke and mirrors of cleaverly worded laws to sew seeds of discord where there is truely is none. why would anyone want to cloud the purpose of government with religion or spirituality for that matter or delute the power of ones personal beliefs by tying it to a political party who are some of the biggest liars cheats and theives on earth at times. there are also soe true remarkable individuals who somtimes rise to the challenge. the people who want to create a false argument to keep fools busy while they rob them blind should instead be hunted down and identified as the social preditors they are. calm true talk anmonst normal people can defeat all the lies and false decisions that can be bought by people with more money than they apparently deserve to have honestly. paul if i read the bible right never gave up his roman citizenship or its benifits. over many years human being have come to realize by actual facts that a central government chosen by its actual citizens at its smallest practible size is far far better than the robber barrons or anarchy or royal commands. when people insist the white collor criminal are just as deserving of being taken out of thier positions of power for life then we will have a much better society. there is a small group who are mentally ill and no matter how much they have they truely need more.. they shoulsd maybe be treated like alccholics and just not givven the chance to harm the poor. so i think the question you have asked is flawed its not either or its maybe we need both but seperately... churches dont want and cant do the job of infrastructure and they can work on morality outside the actual hall of government and government should not be in the business of deciding or pushing religion on anyone it is somthing that does not need to be sold or if you do need to sell religion maybe you missed what is in matthew 10-7 and jesus and the money changers story

Yeah, Athena, but my question is, even if they do *that,* will they be able to get over the notion we sacrifice chickens for some reason? :)

I remember back in the 1990's, I read an article in a Pagan publication called "Children, Get Out Your Chickens." It was a tongue-in-cheek look at what school prayer would be like in multi-cultural public schools. On Friday, the kids would have to bow and face Mecca. On Thursday, they would sacrifice a chicken to the Gods. On Wednesday, they would sit in lotus position and chant Buddhist mantras. On Tuesday, they would read from the Torah in Hebrew. Oh, and on Monday they would say the "Our Father." Of course, if there are more than five religions represented in the school, they would have to go on a monthly basis. Frankly, I think it's a great idea to expose kids to as many of the World's faiths as possible.

So, what will it be, then? In a predominantly Jewish school, will all of the kids read from the Torah? In a school in a predominantly Catholic area, will the kids pray the Rosary? Who decides what public prayers to say? Better to have a moment of silence, or none at all.

"Please remember that the shock over prohibition of school prayer is twofold: 1) first the state usurps community authority as schoolmaster; 2) then the state as schoolmaster bans prayer."

No, this is about the state's *schoolmasters* as *the state's schoolmasters,* which is their *job.*

How do you think it feels when the *schoolmaster as state* tells you to kneel to someone else's God or else lose status in the community or else suffer a loss of the benefits of your schooling?

Christians, not any kind, are *not* 'The Community' being usurped by a lack of officially-enforced or pressured school prayer.

They're trying to edge everyone else *out* of the American community.

Why is it they're all about the 'Free Market' except when it comes to trying to make the public schools for *all* engines for the state to pressure people into their religious beliefs and to punish all others?

Gods know school prayer advocates raise unholy stinks about mythology class or diversity education, or anything that speaks of anything *but* their view of their religion.

And there's *always* a book or scientific topic they want to ban for not being 'Christian' enough, while trying to use the state to *impose* their own *religious* beliefs.

The schools are meant to be neutral, religiously.

Not imposing school prayer, even if it was there in the past, isn't *robbing* Christians of anything. Never should have been there in the first place.

You want to know what *real* exclusion is about, try being a non-Christian for a turn of the Wheel.

Somehow we get our prayers said. Go figure.

""It is error alone which needs the support of gov’t. Truth can stand by itself."

True in many senses, but let's not forget that the government of America also strongly guarantees *individual and minority freedoms and liberties,* cause everyone knows falsehood can also gang up to get its way. :)

Please remember that the shock over prohibition of school prayer is twofold: 1) first the state usurps community authority as schoolmaster; 2) then the state as schoolmaster bans prayer. There is nuance in this formulation, but however one squirms intellectually or ideologically within it the fact remains that the community has now been defined as a "public" thing when it is just as arguably "private". This is an uncomfortable arrangement.

State power floods into every space deemed public while constantly testing the boundaries of what is private, seeking to define order everywhere possible. Consequently all things private retreat, and private identity and initiative take on rebel guises. Something as humble and unthreatening as prayer becomes, for those who pray, a matter of resistance -- and for those who abhor it in the interests of the state, such prayers appear very threatening indeed. Indeed, offensive.

It is at this point that we must ask who has remained sane -- presuming with perhaps unwarranted charity that someone has -- and who is now bonkers.

Reflecting upon it, one can only find that those who perceive threat in prayer have somehow wandered into madness. For if prayer is a threat, then it has power, and if it has power, then on some level it must be efficacious. And if it is efficacious, then perhaps there is a true God, and if perhaps there is a true God, then the state's monopoly on truth and authority is in doubt. The secular power we have come to worship begins to reveal itself as merely a conceit. Its nakedness is winking at us from behind a shabby school curtain.

i certainly agree with your analysis, Mr. Waldman, but one premise is shaky: the advocates of an established Protestantism care less about the health of their religion than about shutting out others.

The mythology of European colonization of what was to become the United States claims that the various pilgrims were seeking freedom to practice their religion. The reality is that they were seeking "new" land in which to establish their own religion to the exclusion of any other; the wide-spread persecution of Catholics (except in early Maryland, founded as an exclusive Catholic colony) and Jews and even disfavored Protestants in the colonies is rarely taught to school children. Look at what happened to the cosmopolitan New Amsterdam when the English turned it into New York.

Not one American has ever lost her or his faith because the federal government hasn't designated a religion as official; there must be another reason for that clamor.

Thank you Mr. Waldman. Well done.