All Comments (185)

Geez. You guys have studied yourselves stupid. Who do you say Christ is based on the evidence? Thats all that matters. For me, He is the beginning and the end...and the evidence for His birth, death and resurrection is overwhelming proof that He spoke the truth!!! www.equip.org
take care all

Yeah..."liking the prayers" is what its all about!
Seriously, I pity those who do not know the Lord Yashua as their Savior and Lord, yet continue to talk about "God" as if they know something about Him or His Word.

I agree 100% Tonio.

FOR YOU

To the memory of my father rahimahullah

For you,
It’s cool to drive home
An almond-eyed cool blonde
Picked up in Paris or in Rome.
For you,
It’s cool to score a goal in Liverpool
Against Real Madrid or Lazio Rome.
For you,
It must be fine to savour wine
And spaghetti while listening to Pavarotti.
For you,
It’s great to have £ 8,000 in hand
Or to land a higher rank in a central bank.
For you,
It’s a delight to the eyes
To watch sunrise in the dunes of Morocco.
For you,
It’s beyond telling the joy of jogging in Monaco.
Let alone the joy of shopping in Hanoi
Or riding a mule in Illinois.
For you,
Time is Now, life in Now,
And there’s nothing to be said
For there’s no other life ahead.
For you,
Life is the kitchen and the bed.
Well, that’s you.
As for me,
Life is Now and Tomorrow.
Life is joy and sorrow.
For me,
I would love to hear Allahu Akbar
From a minaret in Madagascar.
I would love to hear an imam
Talk of Islam in Amsterdam,
Or speak to the children of Leeds
About the worth of good deeds.
I would love to see girls pray
To Allah at Broadway.
I would love to see boys making a lot of noise
Simply because they say
It’s just as lovely
To be a Muslim in Sydney
As in Harlem or Boston !
I would love to see people
From all over the world
Flying as one bird
To meet round the Ka’ba
To say what the Queen of Sheba
Learnt from Solomon :
There’s no God but Allah.
Praise, Praise to Allah !

I too write about God and religion in my novels and poems.
__________

FOR YOU

To the memory of my father rahimahullah

For you,
It’s cool to drive home
An almond-eyed cool blonde
Picked up in Paris or in Rome.
For you,
It’s cool to score a goal in Liverpool
Against Real Madrid or Lazio Rome.
For you,
It must be fine to savour wine
And spaghetti while listening to Pavarotti.
For you,
It’s great to have £ 8,000 in hand
Or to land a higher rank in a central bank.
For you,
It’s a delight to the eyes
To watch sunrise in the dunes of Morocco.
For you,
It’s beyond telling the joy of jogging in Monaco.
Let alone the joy of shopping in Hanoi
Or riding a mule in Illinois.
For you,
Time is Now, life in Now,
And there’s nothing to be said
For there’s no other life ahead.
For you,
Life is the kitchen and the bed.
Well, that’s you.
As for me,
Life is Now and Tomorrow.
Life is joy and sorrow.
For me,
I would love to hear Allahu Akbar
From a minaret in Madagascar.
I would love to hear an imam
Talk of Islam in Amsterdam,
Or speak to the children of Leeds
About the worth of good deeds.
I would love to see girls pray
To Allah at Broadway.
I would love to see boys making a lot of noise
Simply because they say
It’s just as lovely
To be a Muslim in Sydney
As in Harlem or Boston !
I would love to see people
From all over the world
Flying as one bird
To meet round the Ka’ba
To say what the Queen of Sheba
Learnt from Solomon :
There’s no God but Allah.
Praise, Praise to Allah !

Paul C,

"I call that my conscience, the voice of God within us that puts us on the right path. I think you would agree that you feel this as well, Although I doubt you don't attribute it to anything spiritual."

I have those good and bad feelings as well. What I don't understand is how or why anyone would make the leap to attribute those feelings to an external being.

Defining the concept as a "search for answers" or "search for God" can be dangerous because that suggests that there is only one answer, or one permissible or allowable answer. The concept is really about seeking individual joy in a matter that fully respects others' search for individual joy.

Side question - why is this subject being framed in a monotheistic manner? Why wouldn't someone attribute their conscience to many gods and not just one? From an empirical standpoint, the existence of a single god is just as likely as the existence of many gods.

TJ,

Your "why is the sky blue" example indicates the need to explain natural phenomena to children in a way that doesn't resort to belief. Objects and phenomena in the physical universe are not defined by belief. We must not be tempted to temporarily satiate the child's curiosity with non-answers. In the long run, that leads the child to mistakenly see the physical universe as the realm of belief and not empirical inquiry, and it hampers the child's ability to understand scientific concepts. There should be a way to explain the science behind the blue sky at a level the child can understand. "Because that's the way it is" actually discourages scientific and intellectual curiosity.

you keep your commentary on all the time criticizing Islam BUT never answer a single direct question raised by any Muslim OR reply DIRECTLY on there comments to your posts.

IF YOU GUYS ARE REALLY HONEST, NOT WITH MUSLIMS BUT ATLEAST WITH YOUR OWN SELVES,

THEN DARE TO ANSWER BELOW:

You can close your eyes or do not accept for what ever reasons you have….twist or lie
BUT YOU CAN'T DENY THE TRUTH:
THAT EVERY RATIONAL INTELLIGENT LOGICAL KNOWLEDGE & SICENCE IS TESTIFYING FOR QURAN....AFTER EVERY NEXT DISCOVERY AND AWARENESS!

MODREN SCIENCE AND QURAN (ISLAMIC DIVINE BOOK)

Quran is not a book of science BUT a book of signs. It has more than 6000 verses out of which more than 1000 verses giving CLEAR signs about the modern scientific proven facts in recent couple of hundred years. (THIS BY ANY POSSIBLE MEANS CANNOT BE SAID BY US HUMANS 1400 YEARS BACK. THE ONLY LOGIC IS THAT IT’S FROM SOME “ONE” WHO PURPOSELY COMMUNICATING TO A HUMANS AND KNOWS BETTER THAN HUMANS)

- For some people ONE sign is enough to believe.
- For some people 10 signs are enough.
- But some people don't come to believe even after more than 1000 miraculous signs.

Verses about:

1- Big bang theory (in a nut shell).
2- Geo spherical Ostrich egg shaped earth (spherical which is the exact shape)
3- Cosmic dust (referred more perfectly as smoke).
4- How water seep into the earth and rain cycle through AIR.
5- Sweet and salt water of oceans and barrier between them.
6-Expanding sun, solar system and universe for given period of time
7- Earth, sun and stars revolving on their axis and path (orbits).
8- Sun and moon have different paths (orbits).
9- Sun and stars consuming there energy.
10- Reflected sun light of moon. In Arabic mooneer (moon) it self means reflected light.
11- Upper thin layer of earth, which is hold by mountains as nails (bigger in size deep in earth) from shacking.
12- Perfect shape and stages of human embryo.
13- All living being made out of water.
14- All plants and even fruits have male and female attributes.
15- The exact way of plants and animal’s behavior and how they communicate.

AND MANY MORE............

THESE ARE ALL RECENT DISCOVERIES AND SIGN FOR THOSE SINCERELY SEEKING TRUTH!!!!!! AND REMEMBER THAT IS NOT WHAT QURAN IS ALL ABOUT... THESE ARE JUST TESTIFYING SIGNS WITHOUT ANY FLAW OR FAULT.

Dear Indie,

In one line, read Quran with understanding and it will open your heart.

If you find something hard to understand and in case of difficult questions in your mind, ask the true scholars and don't fall pray to the twisted and wrong meanings given by disbelievers. They only see what they have!
Mostly it is easy to understand.

For your reference go to www.peacetv.com
There you will find authentic scholars from all over the world, like Dr. Zakir Naik, Sheikh Ahmed Deedad, Mr. Abdul Raheem Green, Mr. Yousaf Astis and many more.
You will find there the MOST SATISFACTORY answers of any difficult question.

And dear true believe is a journey sometime with lots of hick-ups and mistakes. And can only be achieved with Allah's Will.

Spiderman,

LOL! FYI, there is no such term as "DNAs". You sound like another moron, George Dubya Bush, when he refers to the "Internets".

Clearly you are way out of your depth, but you are amusing!

Someone else you sound like: Homer Simpson: "Everybody is so stupid except me!"

Paul, Yes, indeed I do feel that way. It's good that we all do or else we'd be running around raping and pillaging 24/7. I struggle with 'spiritual' as it seems that many use 'spiritual' and 'supernatural' interchangeably. In this colloquial usage, no, I don't chalk it up to anything spiritual. I don't divide myself into two or more pieces either. Fundamentally, I'm a whole person. I'm not an incorporeal being, or soul if you wish, in a physical body. I'm a human and this is what it means to be human. 'Conscience' seems an agreeable label to me. 'Voice of God' is, in my opinion, an unnecessary embellishment that just clouds the issue.

Consider a child that wants to know why the sky is blue. If you explain the wave properties of light, meteorology, and optics, that will not be a satisfactory answer because it will be beyond their capability to understand. From the child's point of view, it's a non-answer. They can't share it or transmit it. The child's curiosity is much more likely to be sated, temporarily at least, with 'because that's the way it is', 'that's the way god made it', and eventually 'because I said so!'. These are all non-answers from an educated adult's point of view but a child can now answer the question should a friend ask. "Because my mom said so".

I don't see your search for answers, or joy for that matter, as child-like. Far from it. I see the answers that you are willing to accept (god did it) as child-like. I see your apparent need to have a simple answer that you can transmit to others should they ask as child-like.

TJ:
Joy is not a bad thing. My experience is that when I do something good, I feel good about it. When I do something wrong, I feel regret. I call that my conscience, the voice of God within us that puts us on the right path. I think you would agree that you feel this as well, Although I doubt you don't attribute it to anything spiritual.

I don't understand our comment about seeking joy and searching for God to be childlike. Does that imply that adulthood must be joyless or the end of the search for answers? I hope you don't really feel that way.

I see that spiderman2's intelligent spiritual words of wisdom have created the awkening of the "green-eyed monster."

Bravo to spriderman2! Your post are inspirational.

it is as I expected, rubbing your nose in it doesn't work.

You are what I've always called "half smart". You're smarter than half the people you know, so you think you're smarter than everybody. People who are smarter than you are just too dumb to know how smart you are.

This doesn't say much for the kind of humanity you run with does it?

I know it's not kind or usually useful to speak of religious people as being insane. Spiderman is insane with or without religion, so we can't really associate his insanity to his claimed religious nature.

As long as you're just another ted kaczynski sitting there in your room we don't really have to worry about you. Beat your breast, gnash your teeth, let the spittle flow from your intensely angry mouth. You are not only proud of your ignorance, you are petulant about it.

In Highland California there is an institution for your kind, it's named Patton State Hospital for the criminally insane. Take care you don't let the people around you know who you really are.

Freak wrote : " Each complex entity is evolved from a less complex entity, not from scratch. "

Freak is a perfect example of how evolutionary "science" have made people dumb. Does freak know that what he calls as "least complex" living organism is still very complex ? Does he know how many DNA base pairs are needed to form that "least complex" organism?
Does he know there are still millions like him in this world and all of them don't have a clue they are that dumb?

Dumb and dangerous. And they are so many. See the world explode.

Who says this, "To say that man just existed by itself thru random occurence"?

Are you saying that a personal God can be created by random occurence?

Spiderman, you should really lay off the mathematics when you don't understand them.

Each complex entity is evolved from a less complex entity, not from scratch. You seem to miss this entirely. In fact I suspect you will miss this even if your nose is rubbed into it.

Our very big destruction, if it happens, is going to be caused by true believer idiots like you gathered together in large mass movements trying to kill each other - and the rest of us as well.

Dumb DNAs : The End of Evolution

A human being is composed of roughly 40 trillion cells and therefore has the same number of DNAs which is the "instruction code" of every biological cell.

Each DNA is composed of 2.9 billion base pairs or chemical compounds which are linked together to form one big instruction code. They are comparable to the zeros (0) and ones (1) embedded in computer machine codes that run computers. The use of this dual symbols ( 0 and 1) are also referred to as the binary system which all computers today use. In short, DNAs are like binary computer machine codes that instructs each cells how to operate.

In a way, a single human cell or any biological cell is a computer in itself. With 40 trillion DNAs inside a human body, technically, every single person is composed of 40 trillion computers. In comparison, in order for computers to contain information the size equivalent to 2.9 billion base pairs separately stored in 40 trillion DNAs , it should have a total storage capacity of 23.2 sexillion bytes or 232 followed by 20 zeros. That is equivalent to 23.2 trillion pieces of 1 giga-bytes (billion bytes) computer hard disks. Even if we give each person on earth a 80 giga-byte capacity hard disk and combine them all, it still would not be enough to store the amount of information stored inside a human body. ( A byte is a unit of computer storage space or memory capacity; each letter or numeric character is equivalent to 1 byte. A 5-letter word therefore occupies 5 bytes of storage space.)

On that aspect alone, it is really very hard to make a replica of a human being. To say that man just existed by itself thru random occurence is really idiotic coz even with intelligent help thru human intervention, it can't be done. The scientific probabililty that 2.9 billion chemical compounds would arrange themself and know what place they should occupy in a grouping and then would stop rearranging because it has reached a "finished line" and would begin to replicate itself 40 trillion times is nil or zero. For it to have some speck of possiblity, the rate in which these DNAs should change from one form to another should be very fast ( in nanoseconds or much greater ) so it would fit to the age of the universe which is just 13-20 billion years old. And since DNAs of monkeys or man never really altered since the time of Abraham or Herodotus this so called evolution of man by random mutation is definitely a sham and teachers or scientists who teach it are no different than racketeers.

At the rate in which we see DNAs evolve or change, mathematically speaking, these 2.9 billion base pairs can't rearrange in just a span of 20 billion years . The only mathematical escape is to expand the age of the universe to quintillions of years or much more which at the moment cannot be justified.

In science, mathematics is god. If it's not possible mathematically, don't try to push it because you'd either end up a fake or a fool.

With so many "scientists" supporting evolution which is mathematically impossible with respect to actual DNA rate of change vis-a-vis the age of the universe, it's quite scary to think that this world is being run by fools.

With majority of scientists, government heads and officials, university teachers, mainstream religions, all believing in this dumb theory, what could make this world a safe place to live in if all these people cannot think straight?

It doesn't take long for a place to crumble if we let mentally retardates run it. This world is being crowded with evolutionists so it won't take long either that it would crumble once again until they're all wiped out by their own idiotic minds. That may sound brutal but that what happens in the real world.

Maybe what they should be asking is not " how humans evolved? " but rather "how their brains evolved into a bunch of dumb DNAs ? " As least that question would be less damaging coz people would be treating them differently and won't allow them to be put in high places where they can exercise authority over a large number of people.

Stupidity is contageous and with them in high places , they spread the "germ" real fast.

So fast that Murphy's Law would occur in an accelerated mode and dive straight down to the doom button.

The English alphabet is composed of only 26 characters or letters. If we scamble it's letters in different combinations and we do it every second, it would take 1,278,828,834 billion years or 1,278.83 quadrillion years just to complete all the possible combinations that it can make.

With DNAs, we're talking about 2.9 billion and not just a 26 character string. Now how they computed 2.9 billion base pairs to randomly link in less than 20 billion years is a story even Mickey Mouse would find very hard to swallow. These scientists have mathematical IQs of less than 1.

It's really laughable how these people with so low IQs are the ones running our schools.

They say that birds come from dinosaurs. Yeah right, and maybe we too will have wings in some future time.

These people think worse than those in mental asylums. Now why these people aren't in straight-jackets, but rather are free infecting innocent minds and getting paid generously , that I don't understand.

I hope this earth could still contain the coming destruction these people would create.

Just as we can't mess up with gravity, surely we can't with mathematics or Murphy's Law.
Whether they know it or not, Murphy's Law

dictates that a very big destruction is coming soon, and that's for sure.

SPIDERMAN2:

How can a speck of DNA which is just a series of nucleotides provide consciousness?

I think this is a great question.

Science cannot completely provide the answer at this point.

Check out:

http://richarddawkins.net/article,1057,Consciousness-Comes-from-DNA,Carl-Sagan-and-Ann-Druyan-edited-by-John-Hartman

PAUL C:

the more I yearn to learn more about it... I have been absolutely devouring ...books ... It has increased my feeling of peace and joy tremendously.

I know what you mean, I have this same feeling. And I would say taking more time not doing, but being has increased my sence of contentment.

Thoreau said:

To read well, that is, to read true books in true spirit, is a noble exercise, and one that will task the reader more than any exercise which the customs of the day esteem. It requires a training such as athletes
underwent, the steady intention almost of the whole life to this object.

Paul C. writes: "It has increased my feeling of peace and joy tremendously."

So it does make you feel good.

Reading through your exchange with Tonio, I see that you do want to believe. You apparently need an answer regarding the beginning of the universe that science can't currently provide to your satisfaction so you choose an answer that is both 'complete' and, importantly, easy to comprehend. I think this has less to do with the quality of answers and more to do with your child-like need to have one.

Thanks for answering my questions and good luck along the path.

Dear Ms Brooks

Thank you for that beautiful essay. A praying atheist, how wonderful! Your prayer that is being sent wafting to no fixed address I'm sure is arriving at the right address anyway. Surely you remember that from reading Psalm 139; it is my absolute favorite prayer. There is no place to hide from God.

A forty eight year old Indian-Australian woman from Sydney, Australia sends you her heartfelt wishes that you may succeed in everything you do and that your prayers may be answered in ways that is to God's greatest glory and your highest good!

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

TO: People who make multiple comments

RE: Driving away readers

Message:
1.Post a comment about an article.

2.Let other people have their say

3.Get a life

"There's no reason to suppose that God is specifically penalizing one person over an other."

Another possibility is that the god is indifferent to human suffering. Either way, the inevitable conclusion is that the worth of human life is conditional.

"Honestly, how can adhering to such a concept injure anyone?"

It can if one loves others only because one believes one has been commanded to do so. That's not real love because it doesn't come from the heart. True morality involves an intrinsic value for other people and for their happiness and suffering. The whole concept of commandment means that obedience is more important than other people. Love and morality are not about following someone's rules.

"there's nothing in science or philosophy that would explain an accidental creation of all that exists."

The lack of a conscious intelligence to cause the universe to come into being would NOT automatically equate to "accidental creation." Nothing is accidental or random.

Tonio,
Sure, some people will be spared while others suffer, but in my experience, this is rarely a result of their worthiness. There's no reason to suppose that God is specifically penalizing one person over an other. People go through all kinds of trials in their lives and these are just examples. I think we agree on this point.

I firmly believe that the next life is more important than this one but I also believe in the sanctity of life as do all true Christians. Remember, not everyone who calls themselves a Christian actually adheres to Christ's teachings which can be summed up with the Great commandment> Love God and love your neighbor as yourself. Honestly, how can adhering to such a concept injure anyone?

The order of the universe and the laws that govern it surely exist without Humans to describe them. In fact, I'm sure you would agree that they predate the human race as a whole. I still maintain that it took intelligence to make that happen - there's nothing in science or philosophy that would explain an accidental creation of all that exists, other than an intelligent, initiating force (which I'll call God).

Spiderman2,

The sum of your argument seems to be "gee, all this stuff is so complex and amazing, there simply must be a deity behind it all." That's called superstition.

And then you go on to ignore 150 years of hard scientific facts that have been used to build our modern civilization.

And besides, what makes you right and the Muslims and Jews wrong?

Answer: your *opinion* backed by zero facts.

Paul C,

"How do you take the leap that Earthquakes or other forms of suffering must be punitive and hatefull if there is a God."

Clarification - only if there is a god with the power to cause earthquakes at will. It's possible that a god may not have enough power to cause or prevent earthquakes.

I make the leap like this - once we start attributing events in the universe to gods, we are faced with the question about what intentions those gods have. We must address why gods sent tornadoes that destroyed Person A's home but spared Person B's. The only logical answer is that Person A did something to displease the gods, or that gods had a personal agenda against Person A, or that Person B is somehow worthier than Person A. People who would claim that Person A was being punsihed by gods are really applying their own arrogant judgment. And "God works in mysterious ways" is not an answer.

My answer to the tornado question? Disasters like Person A's are an inevitable part of life on earth. Misfortune from natural causes has nothing to do with a person's worthiness. There was no purpose to Person A losing his home. What matters is how Person A deals with the misfortune.

"n your perspective, there is nothing after this life so if you die an early death, its a personal tragedy. I believe that in God's perspective, life is a short trial period where each individual uses his free will to decide whether to go to Heaven or hell for eternity. Therefore, it doesn't make much difference to him whether you die at 20 or 100 because both are incredibly short compared to eternity."

We have no evidence that the god perspective exists. Your argument implies that a next life is more important than this one, and that concept actually promotes suffering because it encourages people to not care about this life. The idea of a god that has absolute power over life and death has inspired some (not all) believers to try to claim that power for themselves in the name of that god. No one should have the importance of his life determined by someone else.

"If the universe is orderly, it must consistently follow a set of rules (like the law of gravity). Those rules need an author, who applied tremendous intelligence to make everything work together."

That's backward. The "rules" only exist in the minds of humans as ways to describe and codify the order observed in the universe. The "rules" have no existence in and of themselves.

I see that neither of you made any effort to address what I said.

I'll try one more time. What do you think of people who believe in Ra, Allah, Krishna, Thor? How about people who actually believe in astrology or numerology? Ask yourself that. Find that opinion within yourself. Extrapolate.

Personally I have this delusion that one day humanity will free itself from these delusions.

Spiderman2, I love your post and sound wisdom. No one can match your the depth of your research nor can they dispute your findings with a rational answer.

All those who try to dispute you use irrational unfounded claims that carry no merit to them. You explanation of God and his intentions for man could only come from detailed time spent in God’s word and a heart that desires to know the truth.

I do admire you for that.

freak wrote, "

What are we to make of all those other believers throughout history who claim the same experience with their god ... gods? Are they delusional while you are not?
Why is your experience reality, but their's a fantasy? Why is your faith reasonable, but their faith a fantasy?

As the example says - you are an atheist too. You don't believe in Thor or Krishna or Ra or Allah, you just believe in one more god than we do. We feel they are delusional for believing in those gods, we feel you are delusional as well for believing in yours.

That's what we mean by delusional.

Somehow your sense of how these other believers having deluded themselves into their beliefs is not applied to your own. That's what makes us say it's because you want to believe it, not because it's reasonable to do so."
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So what is it with the "we" and "us", is this a gang against one person?? How about making it a fair discussion of mature individuals, one on one, can you do that???

TJ, FREAK:
If you look, you will see that I did not call anyone delusional because of their faith, not even the athiests. I personally feel very comfortable in my own religious beliefs and contrary to your expectations, the more I learn about it, the stronger my faith has become and the more I yearn to learn more about it. Over the last year, I have been absolutely devouring lives of saints and books on scripture. It has increased my feeling of peace and joy tremendously. I recognize that this experience isn't shared by everyone but I also know that it is by a lot of people and to far more intense levels than I have experienced. With that background, it just strikes me as fascinating how vigorously the relatively small athiestic community attacks people of faith and religion in general in these forums and I just have to wonder why all the vitriole?

What are we to make of all those other believers throughout history who claim the same experience with their god ... gods? Are they delusional while you are not?
Why is your experience reality, but their's a fantasy? Why is your faith reasonable, but their faith a fantasy?

As the example says - you are an atheist too. You don't believe in Thor or Krishna or Ra or Allah, you just believe in one more god than we do. We feel they are delusional for believing in those gods, we feel you are delusional as well for believing in yours.

That's what we mean by delusional.

Somehow your sense of how these other believers having deluded themselves into their beliefs is not applied to your own. That's what makes us say it's because you want to believe it, not because it's reasonable to do so.

Paul C. asks: "Why do all the athiests on this board feel that anyone who believes in God is delusional."

Answering only for myself but maybe a few others feel similarly..

Because many of us have been in your shoes and we've made the statements and arguments that you are now making. We have admitted our own delusional behavior for what it was. I don't look down on you Paul or think that that I am better or smarter. I empathize with you.

As for 96% and 4%, no, I'm entirely without pause. Does it give you pause that 6.7 of 10 people worldwide aren't Christian? You're just in the upper 33%? Let's don't.

Questions: Do you want to? Does it feel good?

To the self described "rational" people (atheists),

How can a speck of DNA which is just a series of nucleotides provide consciousness? What is in that series that makes you alive? What is in that series that it is able to create vision, a sense of hearing, a capability to smell and taste, to create music, to create wonders? What is the logic behind that series. They are just a repetition of two base pairs (AT and GC) which can be equated as 0 and 1 respectivley -- a whole lots of zeroes and ones. Are you like computer programs which are just a series of zeroes and ones or a series of AC and GT nucleotides? How did you become a very complex system or creature from just a plain and simple series of two repeating "tiny dots" ? How? Can life exist if one of those base pair (an AT or a GT) was put in a wrong position despite the fact that they are all AT and GT in that 3 billion series? Do these series of dots produce intelligence or is it intelligence producing them?

If natural selection is the process, how can innanimate beings like a series of dots "selected" themselves. No life, no selection. (On the assumption that it is true for argument's sake)

IDIOTS EVERYWHERE. The prophecy makes no sense if there are no idiots (or fools as the bible said) to destroy. Because of you guys, you make the Bible true. Thanks Guys.

Wow, Paul C - something just clicked for me: Given that my experience of God is as real to me as a seen object, if I were to deny it, it would be the most irrational, senseless thing I could do. I thought about what TJ said. I do not believe in God because it simply makes me "feel good" or because of the implications of life after death. Its because of my experience of Him.

However, my experience of God is only mine and cannot be shared "by sight" with the person sitting next to me. It would seem that is the way God wants it. Do not take away from this that the experience of God is exclusive to some - its open to all - all the 100% of our population - if they so will.

Tonio:
How do you take the leap that Earthquakes or other forms of suffering must be punitive and hatefull if there is a God. Jesus was once asked whether a man was born blind because of his sins or that of his parents. He responded by saying, " Neither, he was born blind to show the glory of God." He then healed him, teaching a lesson to both the blind man and the witnesses.

God has a completely different perspective of life and suffering than we do. In your perspective, there is nothing after this life so if you die an early death, its a personal tragedy. I believe that in God's perspective, life is a short trial period where each individual uses his free will to decide whether to go to Heaven or hell for eternity. Therefore, it doesn't make much difference to him whether you die at 20 or 100 because both are incredibly short compared to eternity. I believe that some people are tested with suffering and failure and others are tested with fame and success. As the tabloid articles will attest, both are difficult in their own way.

Why would a loving God test his children? The same reason that a teacher does: to show the Children what they need to learn to be successful (and in this case, get to Heaven).

As for your comment that the orderliness of the universe doesn't mean that it was designed by an intelligent creator, have you really thought this through? If the universe is orderly, it must consistently follow a set of rules (like the law of gravity). Those rules need an author, who applied tremendous intelligence to make everything work together. I defy anyone to demonstrate how order can spontaneously arise without an intelligent force to put it into that order. Before you say, that it is because of evolution and natural selection, remember that there are finite rules that govern that process as well. They also needed a creator to stipulate the rules and genetic codes that make that happen. I actively support the theory of evolution. I just think its one of many processes that God uses to manage the universe. To me, that makes a lot more sense than to assume that evolution just started out of the blue with no instigation whatever..

For those of you who really feel they don't believe... go to the book of John in the New Testament. Pray before reading that God will reveal himself to you and see what happens! God is full of miracles.

B-man:

I know, "Evolution has been accepted for 150 years around the world by the world's most educated and field-experienced scientists, and educated people everywhere." Did you know that Jesus has been accepted as the son of God for at least 2,000 years by the world's most educated and field-experienced ministers, and educated people everywhere?

Time of acceptance and quality of acceptors doesn't make it so but it does add an element of the sensational when it's proved wrong.

http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul isn't likely to happen to the theory of evolution and if it does the theory will be discarded at the speed of light. Can't say the same for the Jesus theory. That's due to the significant mismatch between the rules of religion and science.

Show a scientist s/he's wrong and the scientist learns what's right and what's been accepted as wrong becomes an object lesson for students, ether theory for example. Show the religious they're wrong and they'll call you an atheists.

What are people that claim Devil is God? They're not atheists for sure but they would be better off if they were no doubt. Certainly can't reason with them. Probably because there's nothing reasonable about hell. Maybe it's because the big money comes to those who lead the multitudes to hell?

TJ: You are being presumptuous in saying that I choose to believe because I want to and it feels good, not because its logical and reasonable. I actually believe it is logical and reasonable to believe in God. Why do all the athiests on this board feel that anyone who believes in God is delusional. Does it ever enter your minds that some people analyze the data at hand differently than you do and come to different conclusions. In fact, does it give you pause that 96% of Americans see it differently than you do or do you think you're just in the upper 4%?

B-Man writes: "Here's how: "Just show me a rabbit fossil from the pre-Cambrian," as one famous scientist once growled to a religious nut."

Sorry B-Man. God didn't allow Satan to hide what would appear to be rabbit fossils in pre-Cambrian layers. Probably because he expected some science -nut would come along and make just that request to some famous religionist. ;)

Spiderman2,

I've read your gibberish before. You know next to nothing about the theory of evolution. Evolution has been accepted for 150 years around the world by the world's most educated and field-experienced scientists, and educated people everywhere. There is nothing at all hazy about the theory, that is your brain's inability to accept scientific fact.

There is not a single scrap of evidence which exists to disprove the theory, nor is there any scrap of evidence in existence that does not fit the theory (bronze-age fairy tales in the Bible don't count). You're on a hopeless mission if you truly believe that "one day" Evolution will be proved a hoax, and then you will be right. (LOL!) With each passing day, the theory of evolution gets stronger and stronger and ever more detailed and nuanced, and at the same time, more and more people on this planet are rejecting superstitious religion.

As I've told you before, Evolution could be disproved very, very easily. Here's how: "Just show me a rabbit fossil from the pre-Cambrian," as one famous scientist once growled to a religious nut. You will never ever find a more complex organism occurring earlier in time on this planet than a less complex organism, and this is the basis for the theory of Evolution.

geez spiderman2, what freakin idiot you are.
Those apples your'e salivating over were bred, by humans, to taste the way they do.
have you ever heard of the "cherokee rose" ? Primitive roses only had 4 petals, they were bred, bred by humans, to smell good and look good.
Dogs, pigs, cattle, horses, oranges, tangellos ... all sorts of animals and plants we use today exist in their current state because we made them that way. It was called "selection", do you know what that word means?

It's called genetics, have you ever heard that word?

You're a sick man dude, you're showing us how you've talked yourself into this nonsense, do you really think anybody else is so stupid to use your "logic" to end up in the same mental toilet where you swim?

The earth isn't hung on nothing Spiderman. It's a member of a very complicated gravitational system. Just because you can't see the gravitational force doesn't mean it isn't there.

The Theory of Evolution

"He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing." (Job 26:7)

This Old Testament Bible verse was written by a servant of God named Job in about 1520 BC. During that time when most people think that the earth is flat, it is remarkable that someone will categorically say that the earth is not supported by anything. If there were scientists in his time, it would not be unusual if they call him crazy or stupid. Even today, if we have no concrete photos or pictures of the earth floating in space, chances are we won't believe that it really "hangs upon nothing".

The Bible was written thousands of years ago but yet it's never obsolete and is still full of facts that are reserved for future generations to witness or if they are wise, unravel. Despite its accuracy in both scientific and historical matters there are many-a-number of people who dismiss it as fictional.

Today, the Theory of Evolution or the study that man "evolved" from monkeys and that all living things started from inanimate or non-living things are already widely accepted in much of Europe and by many scientists around the world. These people are not holding any proofs to support their claims and yet despite their being "scientists" and "developed nations" status of Europe, they are quick in embracing a very hazy doctrine and just as quick in denouncing the biblical story of creation and even the whole Bible itself.

It's very ironic that among these learned bunch of people, you'll find the dumbest set of people on earth.

Instead of putting their energies on finding the "missing link" between monkey and man, why shouldn't they first find the link between the sweet taste of an apple fruit to that of the human tongue? How did that apple tree created a product for its "customer"? Was it a first hit or did it make many experiments to come up with a sweet product? Was there any communication link between the two that they perfectly matched although both exist independent from each other? It is only common sense that your tailor measures you first before he makes you a suit.

If they don't want to work around apples, they could ask themselves what is the link between the color and form of a rose flower to that of the human eye. Did it have just one petal at first and then thought by itself thru its "invisible mirror" that it doesn't look good so it made itself with more petals and its color impeccable red, yellow or pink? Are they making themselves beautiful for themselves only or is it exclusive for their "only customer", the human eye? Again, was there any communication link between the two? It would be very crazy to say that they just happened "randomly". If you can solve that thru reason, then how? If I ask you to patch a hole, can you cover that hole without measuring the said hole? For two things to match perfectly, there should always be an interaction between the two. That piece of fact is nowhere to be found in evolution coz no two objects can match perfectly without inteacting with each other. And we're not jast talking about one or two interactions but millions of them.

There are thousands of very difficult questions that will arise if we are to believe these evolutionists that it would be much easier to just affirm that they truly are dumb than to just leave those thousands of hard questions unresolved. In fact, putting them in the stupid or dumb category erases all the confusions that they made in the first place.

They may think that the concept of God as creator is fictional, but they never foresaw that without the concept of God, it would generate thousands or even millions of unresolvable questions as opposed to one crazy "answer" if they believe in evolution. Is it difficult to believe that the whole universe existed just by the word of God when in fact, Jesus Christ, who was a real historical figure (not fiction), had showed its possibility by multiplying the fish and the bread into thousands more thru his spoken words only? Would they call it a fiction when He did it not only in front of his disciples but in front of thousands of people, believers and unbelievers alike? Would they call it fiction when historians could not disprove His existence and deeds?

Maybe these scientists are not crazy at all. Come to think of it, the more questions that arise, the more funding they get from clueless moneyed institutions. In fact there was much talk about the possibility of finding the "origin of life" on earth if they can land a spacecraft in one of Saturn's moon called Titan. Surely that kind of "noble" search would keep the money flowing.

They may land on all the planets and moons in this whole universe but one thing is sure, they won't find the "origin of life" and neither is the "missing link" between monkey and man. Empty pursuits gets empty results.

In Genesis 25:23, God said, "... two nations are in thy womb..." refering to the twins (Jacob and Isau) inside Rebekah's womb. Rebekah happened to be the wife of Isaac, and Isaac, the son of Abraham. The 12 tribes of Israel started from the 12 sons of Jacob. In 1948, Israel was declared a nation and today we are seeing the making of another nation, the State of Palestine, its twin brother.

Like the earth hanging on nothing and the birth of these two nations, the Bible for centuries have been accurate. On the other hand, evolution has been feeding us with trash ever since its conception and it's quite a surprise that many are believing it.

God has still many prophecies written in His book. It speaks about the safety of the believers of God and destruction of unbelievers. And just like in the time of Noah (the flood) and Lot (Sodom and Gomorrah), these unbelievers wouldn't know what will hit them.

Ironically, that would be the time they will find the "source of life" coz they would finally meet the Creator whom they continuously deny.

Paul C. writes: "Some are very gullible and will believe something to be true, even with shoddy and even false evidence. On the other hand, some people are such skeptics that they don't believe their own senses."

If I have any purpose, which is a stretch, on this board, it's to get people to be honest with themselves and say "I believe in god because it makes me feel good and I want to, not because it is logical or reasonable to do so".

I see that you are in the process of doing this Paul C. Good for you.

"When you were teaching your son or daughter to ride a bike, you allowed him or her to fall and hurt themselves, not because you were evil, but because thats what it takes to learn to ride a bike."

Your analogy works only for suffering that humans bring on themselves or others. To make the analogy fit an earthquake or other natural disaster, the parent would deliberately push the child off the bike or run into the child with a car. The free-will concept applies ONLY to human-caused suffering. It does not apply to other suffering. Applying the free-will argument to natural disasters inevitably leads to hateful Pat Robertson-type notions about these events being punishments.

"If you beleive that there is order to the universe, there must be something to create that order. I call that something God. You can call it whatever you want but that doesn't change its essence."

Its essense is a matter of scientific inquiry and not of belief. The cause of that order wouldn't have to be a conscious intelligence. In fact, the burden of proof is on any claim that such an intelligence created the order. Also, some pantheists and deists believe in a god that is not a conscious entity.

I believe that God is omnipotent and loving. The fact that God allows suffering does not mean that this in not true. Think of it in simple terms: When you were teaching your son or daughter to ride a bike, you allowed him or her to fall and hurt themselves, not because you were evil, but because thats what it takes to learn to ride a bike. There are lessons to be learned from suffering and it also presents opportunities to show compassion or bystanders and character for those directly effected. I believe this is part of the purification process that leads to heaven.

I also believe that although we are small and powerless in comparison to God, he shows us enormous respect by letting us think and act based on our own free will. Our actions do and should have ramifications, both positive and negative. Some people would like that not to be the case, but really don't you want and deserve to have some responsibility for what your do?

Finally, as to the argument that an ordered universe doesn't imply a God, I would say that is simply an argument of terminology. If you beleive that there is order to the universe, there must be something to create that order. I call that something God. You can call it whatever you want but that doesn't change its essence.

I believe that different people have different clip levels of belief. Some are very gullible and will believe something to be true, even with shoddy and even false evidence. On the other hand, some people are such skeptics that they don't believe their own senses. The challenge is to be honest with yourself about where you are on that spectrum

B-Man,

Why would a deity create a universe that seemed, down to the last detail, as if there were no God?

We may never know, but if there IS a God, the one thing we DO know is that He wants us to act AS IF HE DOESN'T EXIST! No churches! No synagogues! No mosques! They're all SACRELIGIOUS! No Bible! No Koran! They're in conflict with HIS WILL!

How should we honor Him? Atheism! Science! Reason! Democracy! Humanism! Evolution! Skepticism! Hallelujah!

Why would a supposedly "loving" deity create a world in which its creatures had to survive by literally eating each other alive?

"The reason we always hear is, so many bad things happen, so how could there be a God?"

You're right that suffering alone would not disprove the existence of gods. The question of the existence of gods and the question of suffering are two separate questions.

But the question of suffering does play into the question of the nature of gods. By "suffering" I don't mean harm that humans inflict on themselves or on each other, because that is our fault. I mean harm that has no human cause like earthquakes or tornadoes. That type of harm argues against gods that are both omnipotent and omnibenevolent. Those gods could be omnipotent and indifferent to that harm, or those gods could be omnibenevolent and not powerful enough to prevent that harm.

Will,

Why do the wonders of this universe have to imply a deity, much less a deity who possesses all the worst character traits of an ego-manaicle human?

I believe this article's an honest expression of the author's very true and deepest feelings.

I don't agree with it. Can't possibly agree. It's been said before -- how can you look up at a blue sky, a forest, a baby, a warm summer day, autumn, winter, spring, living things and not see God? The reason we always hear is, so many bad things happen, so how could there be a God? This is what works for me and is so simple to believe: bad things happen -- and there is a God. If He came in one time like superman when a tornado struck, why would He not have to every single time? We would be outraged if we ever broke a bone -- why did God let it happen? We would be throwing ourselves off buildings for the fun of being caught in mid-air.

He lets us do what we will to ourselves and to each other. But-- we can never know how many times that hand of God has reached in to deliver every one of us from -- something really bad.

I do notice however, that in this article, Ms. Brooks does refer to her atheism in the past tense, and being an award-winning writer, I doubt she doesn't realize it. She leaves us in the lurch about what she actually does believe, which is fitting, because that's where she is.

Come on JJ, can't you just stay within the limits of blog ettiquite? You're not making any friends or winning any converts with this type of behavior, whereas you WERE making friends and possibly even winning converts with your reasonable-length posts about photons, tube worms and Einstein.

ya..

Using science to sell religion is a fool's errand.

Einstein and Neils Bohr are rolling over in their graves. Spiderman2 should stick to Revelations...much more his speed.

Just when Spidey got off to a good start he fell off his apocolyptic horse into a pile of true believers. Ouch!!

Dump fundamentalism and be happy.......

I think many people find comfort through prayer and meditation. I cannot not be so all knowing myself not to take advice from the ages.

Thing is Americans don't know how to pray I think. For example, "God please give me a new house and a new car" and "Thy will be done" do not fit together. Once a seemingly religious man said, "Look what God gave me, a new car". I replied that my mother said, "Mark, anyone can own a payment book". Her last car was a brandnew Liberty edition cherry red Cadilac Seville trimmed in gold. She paid cash for it.

It's interesting though, recently I counted the number of times the word "us" appears in an orginal version of "The Lord's Prayer" through a tranlation of "The Didache" from the first century A.D. The word "us" appears at least three times and "our" appears at least once. My take is that it's not all about me.

Oh and one more comment if you please. The manual "The Didache" is considered an anonymously written guide to ways of the Righteous and while exposing the ways of the heathens. This writing without authorship is accepted as written record derived from oral traditions. Darn, just when you think you know it all.

ChuckB writes: "What impels these mostly highly educated people to leave the church is the patent hypocrisy of so many of its ministers and priests and the inanity of the fables that have been used to enthrall the mass of adherents."

In my case it has more to do with the fact that I perceive Christianity as a whole to be a fundamentally broken and nonsensical world view. I understand that you'd rather not address that and would rather chalk it up to other reasons, so carry on.