All Comments (139)

elocjzy igqabs tmxg lqxab vdrcpjy ohqlze upaorcisd

elocjzy igqabs tmxg lqxab vdrcpjy ohqlze upaorcisd

elocjzy igqabs tmxg lqxab vdrcpjy ohqlze upaorcisd

elocjzy igqabs tmxg lqxab vdrcpjy ohqlze upaorcisd

the Puritans originally wanted to reform the Church of England. The Separatists had no such delusions and wanted a complete break. They did not come to the USA to build a theocracy of church and state. Just the opposite.

The religious people who came over on the Mayflower were Separatistss-separation of church and state. They were in fact fleeing for their lives. These people predated the Plymouth Colony but later joined together at least in name.

But I don't believe in war or war profiteering either.

A religion which can't tolerate other religions is a weak religion.

TIMOTHY said;
I believe the writer Manji takes the liberty of rewriting American history when she states:

"America itself was founded as a theocracy whose clerics could be punitively dogmatic."
---------------------------------------------------
Timothy, the early Colonies, despite their attempt to throw off the legacy of control of the Roman Catholic Church in Europe, still brought it's tyrannies here in the form of many preachers and theologians who were absolutely certain their way was the only way, & they florished in many places. Such absolute certainty is what Jefferson fought against, but it still existed, & it still exists today in the form of dogmatic peoples of all stripes today. I'm afraid absolutism is never going to go away, it pops up in every generation.

There were many theocratic communities in America, many religious experimental colonies set up as towns who built their own settlements all across the country, still do. The Puritans, the Quakers, the Shakers, the Amish, the Mormons, all had their own religious-based laws, even if they did not divorce themselves completely from the federal laws of the land. Their distinctiveness sometimes didn't last for long, such as the Shakers whose edict of celibacy doomed them to die out last century, leaving behind some of the most simple & elegantly beautiful furniture ever made. Their life motto: "Hands to work, hearts to God" was known & admired far beyond their communities, which thrived mostly in the 1800's. The Amish still exist, as do the Quakers & Mormons, but there were probably hundreds of others whose theme of living a life based on religious belief did not survive.

Note, the Mormons made concessions at times to keep from being wiped out, such as giving up polygamy, one of Joseph Smith's core tenets of belief. So their community today would probably not please Joseph Smith. Those who were not willing to compromise were most often the ones who no longer exist. I've heard there are small communities of sects now in sparsely-settled areas of the west, but we rarely hear of them unless they do something spectacular like commit mass suicide.

But still, you're right about the Federal government not being technically a theocracy.

I have always admired Thomas Jefferson's strong courage for standing up to the "powers-that-be" of his time, especially the religious people who firmly and unwaveringly were convinced they had god on their side. Jefferson did not live in fear, in fact sometimes I wonder if he ever feared anything or anybody. I think perhaps he enjoyed life too much to fear it.

It is unfortunate that Arabs are so often willing to let the most rigid and fanatical of their fellows to rule them. But they're not the only ones; the religious right here is responsible for many of the current evils of this country.

hahaha wrote : "please tell us-- who will vaporize us?"

Just look at Moody's postings and you'd get an idea.

THANKS TO: ANONYMOUS who wrote the item on the Mass. Bay Colony on February 4, 2008 1:49 AM.

Thanks for furthering the debate on whether America was established as a theocracy, as alleged by Ms. Manji, by introducing the fact that Roger Williams founded his colony specifically for the purpose of getting away from the idea of state-supported religion, i.e., a theocracy.

Those of you who've gotten this far, go back and read the bigotted response by Robert to my first reply to Ms. Manji, pointing out that her blanket claim that America was founded as a theocracy was, simply, a lie. And poor, smug Robert actually couched his reply in terms of showing his superior intelligence to DUMB (his word) Southerners!

"There are none so blind..."

Vaporized???

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Vaporized!!!

VAPORIZED!!!!

That's so... 1950's?

Whenever people forget to take their medication, we get "lively" threads like this one.

Please, oh Friendly Neighbor Spiderman 2 (that's right, #2!), please tell us-- who will vaporize us?

Is it... Dr. Octopus? Is it the Green Goblin? Is it... Electro? Or maybe Hydro-Man?

Please, tell us more!

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated,

The reason why the U.S is the greatest country is because it is the country that fit to the description of Apostle Paul which says that the children of faith and NOT the children of works (this includes the four major religions and some major false christian religions) will inherit and rule the earth. A big portion of the people in the U.S and even the first settlers in Portsmouth, Massachusetts believe that scripture. They inherit the prophecy by believing it. This country will ultimately rule the earth coz that is the prophecy.

The U.S. did not start WW2 but that was the beginning of the fulfillment of that prophecy and WW3 would establish it fully even though the U.S. won't start it.

That is the prophecy and those who would challenge it (there would be many) may temporarily win but in the final showdown, the prophecy would still prevail.

A lot of people will be "vaporized".

America has been protected by God from two World Wars but not this time because of the increasing liberalism and secularism among its people.

Salvation is personal and being a member of a religion would not save a person. But Eph. 2:8-10 and Jn 3:16 sums it all and those who live these verses in their hearts are the holders of true religion.

Well done USA Master Cockroaches.

Muslim doudts in Iraq are confirmed.

Much worse is & will be always expected from US ruling zionest pigs.

Moody, Moody, Moody,

Apparently the sins of Islam have not passed you by and you commit the typical following transgressions:

1. Believe in "pretty/ugly wingie" thingies and teach your children that such things really exist.

2. Believe that the long-dead, "stenchifying" Arab did actually talk to the "pretty Gabriel" in the hot "Gabe" cave and therein received the
"sin words" now listed in the koran.

3. That Sunnis are superior to Shiites in all aspects of life.

4. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7, 800 year-old blood feud between Sunnis and Shiites gives significant credence that hatred, anger, suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran. Having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of rape, lust and polygamy. The condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of hate, anger and greed.

Statistically
-more than 1 million Iraqi's are been butchered so far
-more than 4 million displaced.
-All major cities are destroyed. No electricity, no water, no sanitation no NOTHING.

On Al Jazeera net Analyst’s are

THANKING USA (Chaos & Conspiracy Masters) for,

1- Alienating millions of the Sunnis from the US established only Shia government.

2- And then branding them ALL SUNNI CIVILIANS as allies of Bathiest Previous (US breed & Groomed) Dictator. And projecting that idea through out world through its Zionist controlled media.
3- In result PROVOKING THE US MADE SHIA ESTABLISMENT to genocide Sunni civilians “AND OFFICIALLY KEEPING CRIMINAL SILENCE SUPPORTING AND PROVIDING WEOPENS”. (On Al Jazeera net Analyst’s comments).

WELL DONE USA MONSTOROUS MASTERS.
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK; YOUR DAYS ARE ACCOUNTED FOR.

Your stupid look bushy bush president recently visited Middle East and was trying to project the same evil propaganda.

He thinks like him the world is filled with blinds and fools!!!!

No wonder WHY now the extremely abused women EVEN preferring to blow them selves up after all the humility, WHO USED TO BE LIVING PIOUS AND RIGHTIOUS LIVES.

FOR ABUSED WOMEN REFERENC YOU CAN SEE USA TORTURE CELL SNAPS & MOVIES ALL OVER ELECTRONIC MEDIA.

The Riddles of the Devil/Jinn exposed!

Let it be known that by Islamic-Secret-Pact ;

Pakisatin is Afghanistan! And Afghanistan is Pakistan! Iran is King Satan between them! And

Jealous Saudi Arabia is the Mother Of Idolatary Loving Harlots! Not the Catholic Church!

iNCAMERA (Secret) IT (Lord, Holy No-Mon Eclat+i) via the ECLATi_N Prophecy (not OFF's) that the [un] Holy KABBA in JIDDAH SAUDi Arabia & the AL AQSA Dome in JERUSALEM will have the same fate as the 'Twin Towers of 911 [interestingly, see QURAN @ 9:111 et seq] and which "i" made my Living From & lost, and the same fate as the Pentagon!

Ya Ya! Good BYE KABBA & AL AQSA! Soon Soon Very Very Soon! BUT, BUT,

If Islam gives-Up "OSAMA BiN LADIN & his [un] Holy Lamps (Partners in Crime) by end of JUNE.2008, that Islam, via AFGHANiSTAN & PAKiSATAN & iRAN & Saudi will & can Avoid this Prophecy. There is no other way Out!

During the seventeenth century the combined New England colonies formed practically, if we except Rhode Island, one great Puritan commonwealth. They were under separate governments; but their aims and hopes, their laws, for the most part, and their past history were the same.

The people as a whole were liberty-loving in the extreme, but the individual was restrained at every step by laws that no free people of today would tolerate for an hour. Paternalism in government was the rule in the other colonies and in Europe, but nowhere was it carried to such an extreme as in New England.

Here the civil law laid its hand upon the citizen in his business and social relations; it regulated his religious affairs, it dictated his dress, and even invaded the home circle and directed his family relations. One law forbade the wearing of lace, another of "slashed cloaths other than one slash in each sleeve and another in the back." The length and width of a lady's sleeve was solemnly decided by law. It was a penal offense for a man to wear long hair, or to smoke in the street, or for a youth to court a maid without the consent of her parents. A man was not permitted to kiss his wife in public. Captain Kimble, returning from a three-years' ocean voyage, kissed his wife on his own doorstep and spent two hours in the stocks for his "lewed and unseemly behavior."

In the matter of education the Puritans stood in the forefront. Many of the clergy were men of classical education, and through their efforts Harvard College was founded but six years after the great exodus began. Before the middle of the century Massachusetts required every township of fifty families to employ a teacher to educate the young in reading and writing, while every township of one hundred families must maintain a grammar school. The other colonies soon followed with similar requirements.

But the most striking feature in the life of New England is found in its religion. The State was founded on religion, and religion was its life. The entire political, social, and industrial fabric was built on religion. Puritanism was painfully stern and somber; it was founded on the strictest, unmollified Calvinism; it breathed the air of legalism rather than of free grace, and received its inspiration from the Old Testament rather than the New.1

There was a gleam of truth in the charge of Mrs. Hutchinson that the Puritans lived under a covenant of works. This was because they had not yet fully grasped the whole truth of divine revelation. No further proof of the legalistic tendencies of Puritan worship is needed than a glance at their own laws. A man, for example, was fined, imprisoned, or whipped for non-attendance at church services. He was dealt with still more harshly if he spoke against religion or denied the divine origin of any book of the Bible.2 Laws were made that tended to force the conscience, to curb the freedom of the will, and to suppress the natural exuberance of youth -- laws that could not have been enacted and enforced by a people who comprehended the full meaning of Gospel liberty, or had caught that keynote of religious freedom sounded by the ancient prophet and resounded by St. Paul and Luther, "The just shall live by faith."

Nevertheless there is no more admirable character in history than the New England Puritan of the seventeenth century. His unswerving devotion to duty, his unlimited courage based on the fear of God, his love of liberty and hatred of tyranny -- these are the qualities that have enthroned him in the memory of the American people. We deplore the narrowness and intolerance of the puritans; but they were less narrow and intolerant than the English and most of the Europeans of that day. They committed errors, but they were willing to confess them when they saw them. They banished Roger Williams as a disturber of the peace, not for his opinions; but they bore witness to his spotless character. They executed a few Quakers, but confessed their error by repealing their own law. They fell into the witchcraft delusion, which was prevalent throughout Christendom at the time; but they were first to see the dreadful blunder they had made and they were not too proud to publicly confess it. Judge Sewall made, before a large congregation, a confession of his error as only a hero could have done; and he begged the people to pray "that God might not visit his sin upon him, his family, or upon the land." Such was a trait of the Puritan character that leads us to forget his faults and to admire rather than censure him.

New England developed steadily throughout the colonial era. The people were chiefly of the stanch yeomanry, the great middle class, of England. Many of them were men of fortune and standing in their native land. The people of Massachusetts were slow in reaching out from the seaboard; not till about 1725 did they begin to colonize the Berkshire Hills. The Connecticut Valley was more productive than other parts of New England, and the people of Connecticut were more purely agricultural in their pursuits than were those of any other portion, except New Hampshire. The chief industry of Rhode Island was trade, while Massachusetts was divided, agriculture and commerce holding about equal sway. Six hundred vessels plied between Boston and foreign ports, while the number of coasting vessels was still greater.

Manufacturing was carried on, but not on any great scale. Sawmills and gristmills were numerous along the rivers, and they did a large business in preparing timber and grain for transportation. Hats and paper and other commodities were made on a small scale; but the most extensive manufacturing was carried on by the farmers and their families, who made many of the utensils for their own home use, as will be noticed in a subsequent chapter.

The stern Puritan customs were gradually softened, more rapidly in Massachusetts than in Connecticut, owing to the many Crown officers residing in Boston. The first attempts to introduce the Episcopal form of religion were sternly resisted, but at length it found a footing, though not in Connecticut till well into the eighteenth century. About 1734 a religious revival, started by Jonathan Edwards and carried on by George Whitefield, the evangelist, spread over parts of New England, and to some extent revived the waning Puritan religious fervor.

The population at the opening of the Revolution reached nearly 700,000, about 300,000 of which was in Massachusetts, including Maine. Connecticut contained about 200,000 people, New Hampshire some 75,000 and Rhode Island some 50,000.3

All colonies had negro slaves, but very few in comparison with the southern colonies. Probably there were not more than 15,000 slaves in all New England, of whom Massachusetts and Connecticut had the majority. Indentured servants were slow in coming to New England, and when they came, their rights were guarded by salutary laws.

Footnotes

1The Puritan conscience was painfully overwrought. Nathan Mather wrote that in his youth he went astray from God and did dreadful things, such as whittling behind the door on Sunday. Sometimes a child would weep and wail in the fear that it was not one of the elect and would go to hell. [return]

2But such laws were not peculiar to New England. [return]

3See Lodge, p. 408.[return]

Pakisatin is Afghanista! And Afghanistan is Pakistan! Iran is King Satan between them!

"For preventing disorders, arising in several places within this jurisdiction by reason of some still observing such festivals as were superstitiously kept in other communities, to the great dishonor of God and offense of others: it is therefore ordered by this court and the authority thereof that whosoever shall be found observing any such day as Christmas or the like, either by forbearing of labor, feasting, or any other way, upon any such account as aforesaid, every such person so offending shall pay for every such offence five shilling as a fine to the county."

From the records of the General Court,
Massachusetts Bay Colony
May 11, 1659

iNCAMERA (Secret) IT (Lord, Holy No-Mon Eclat+i) via the ECLATi_N Prophecy (not OFF's) that the [un] Holy KABBA in JIDDAH SAUDi Arabia & the AL AQSA Dome in JERUSALEM will have the same fate as the 'Twin Towers of 911 [interestingly, see QURAN @ 9:111 et seq] and which "i" made my Living From & lost, and the same fate as the Pentagon!

Ya Ya! Good BYE KABBA & AL AQSA! Soon Soon Very Very Soon! BUT, BUT,

If Islam gives-Up "OSAMA BiN LADIN & his [un] Holy Lamps (Partners in Crime) by end of JUNE.2008, that Islam, via AFGHANiSTAN & PAKiSATAN & iRAN & Saudi will & can Avoid this Prophecy. There is no other way Out!

Sorry Spidee! Please accept this Apocalyptarian Prophecy or Perish soon soon very Soon!

Note: IT's O.K. if Osama Bin Ladin & his Lamps comeforth "DEAD OR ALIVE". Note: ALL His Children will also have a Calamity if he is so scared to die & show up dead or alive!

PleasePlease, get the Word out to all your AL TAQIYA Elders of Islamic Zionism! Thanks!

Please, do not climb any walls! Ya Ya, ye will see the Power of the FORCE!

Artist: Roger Williams

Confronting Bodies: Massachusetts Bay Colony

Date of Action: 1635

Specific Location: Massachusetts Bay Colony

Description of Artwork: Roger Williams was an outspoken advocate of religious freedom, and was one of the first challengers of Puritan Theocracy.

Description of Incident: Williams was banished from the Massachusetts Bay Colony for his toleration and support for religious diversity, which included, "Jews, Pagans, and Turks." His defiance over state control over religious freedom led to his expulsion from the state. Williams moved to Rhode Island and founded the city of Providence. In 1644, Williams wrote a book on religious freedom, democracy and intellectual freedom, "The Bloody Tenent of Persecution."

Results of Incident: In 1936, 300 years after Williams expulsion from the former colony, the state legislature retracted its expulsion order.

Source: New York Public Library

Moody, Moody, Moody,

You are indeed in some sort of snit!!!!

And by the way, I am not Jewish but some of my best friends are as are those Muslims of the New Order i.e. Salman Rushdie and Hirsi Ali. Base religion is Catholicism, educated by some of the best of the the best i.e. the Franciscan Friars, Sisters and Brothers.

It appears you are more than ready for that Five Step Program for Cleansing of those flawed Islamic Neurons. Are you ready to begin??

Muhammad writes: "Umar ibn al Khattab was not killed by a Muslim, but by a Zoroastrian".

You must be a sunni. Shia regard Abu Lu'lu'ah the killer of Umar as Shia. Shias have great stories about the bravery of Abu Lu'lu'ah, and how he escaped after killing Umar and died seven years later. Sunnis claim he was caught and was killed right away. Sunni and Shias do agree that Ubyadullah, son of Umar, killed Abu Lu'lu'ah' wife, and children. Uthman pardoned him for the blood of innocents. Islamic justice for you right from the start of Islam!!

For Your Information: this is a utube of a Human Rights Service interview of Mariwan Halabjaee, another example of the typical Muslim violent response to any criticism of Islam.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=pBtyrrZ39IM

"Mariwan Halabjaee,* "the Salman Rushdie of Iraqi Kurdistan," is the author of the book "Sex, Sharia and Women in the History of Islam." The book is about how Islam and Sharia law are allegedly used to oppress Muslim women. "I wanted to prove how oppressed women are in Islam and that they have no rights," said Mr. Halabjaee. "My book is based on Islamic sources such as the Holy Quran, Muslim and Bukhari books and many more."

Mr. Halabjaee was forced to flee to Norway from Iraqi Kurdistan because the Islamic League of Kurdistan issued a "conditional" fatwa to kill him if he did not repent and apologize for writing his book. The "conditional" nature of the fatal fatwa was uncertain at best. Mr. Halabjaee reported, "the mullahs and scholars said if I go to them and apologize they will give me 80 lashes and then refer me to the fatwa committee to decide if I am to be beheaded. They might forgive me, they might not."

Mr. Halabjaee received telephone calls saying, "Now, in 10 years or 15 years, we will kill you." Another time, Mr. Halabjaee reported, "the Islamists said once from the radio, if they found out where I was, they would blow themselves up with me." The worst thing was realizing his wife and children were in danger. "With that book I wanted to defend women but the first thing I did was hurt my wife." As a result, Mr. Halabjaee went into hiding with his pregnant wife and three children.

Mr. Halabjaee fled Iraqi Kurdistan after the Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) refused to offer him any protection or to arrest those who threatened his life. "The Kurdish authorities have not provided any protection from threats and fatwas," said Mr. Halabjaee, "any moment I am expecting a bullet or a hand grenade to be thrown into where I live."

In response to the Halabjaee affair, the KRG Minister of Religious Issues, Dr. Mohammad Gaznayi, told protestors that according to the law of Iraqi Kurdistan, "defamation" or "criticizing" religion or religious figures is a crime and its punishment is severe. "We will give those who attack our prophets a sentence so that they can be a lesson for everyone," said Dr. Gaznayi. [Dr. Gaznayi is the same KRG Minister of Religious Issues who said, "I consider that those who turn to Christianity pose a threat to society."] Mr. Halabjaee was in possession of a warrant for his arrest issued by the Suleimaniya police department when he fled Iraqi Kurdistan.

In August 2006, Mr. Halabjaee was granted political asylum in Norway.

In December 2007, Mr. Halabjaee was convicted in absentia in Iraqi Kurdistan for the crime of blasphemy. A court in Halabja sentenced Mr. Halabjaee to six months in prison for writing that the prophet Mohammed had 19 wives, married a 9-year-old when he was 54 years old, and committed murder and rape. Mr. Halabjaee remains in hiding in Norway. The sentence states that he will be arrested upon his return to Iraqi Kurdistan."

To the great fan and admirer CCNL
Of
USA masters "FATHER OF ALL DEVILS”?
Rightly said by Iranian President before US mad bushy bush use the words axe.o.e.

AND below is the kind of LIBRATION AND FREEDOM your SECULAR, CAPTILIST, DEMOCARTE, CORPORATE MONSTOR ADMINISTRATION ESTABLISHMENT is providing to the world NOW for more than half century. YOU ARE SO PROUD OF.

CCNL & ALL the blood bath Admirers:

Now the World is fully aware of USA
1- Pentagon military organization "Chaos Theory" all over the world to support its Weapon Industry with more than 18000 fighter plans and more than 1800 war ships IN SERVICE which ALONE IS BIGGEST THEN THE REST OF THE WORLD WEAPON INDUSTRIES & ARMS IN SERVICE COLLECTIVELY including Russia, China, India, Europe, NATO etc. And responsible of supplying illegal weapons all over the world FUELING ALL KIND OF BLOOD SHED ESPECIALLY IN CONTINENT OF AFRICA & MIDDLE EAST.
2- And USA White House civilian government "Conspiracy theory" to support its advances to control world resources.
Your and your Govt. credibility SUCKS.
Liars and conspirers!!!
Your pentagon driven Media conspires and All US dumb heads do is just follow the media slogans.
For example:
YOU and your stupid Bushy Bush call Iran Exe of Evil.
If some body with the slightest sense analysis. IRAN HAS NEVER SHOWN AGGRESSION WITH ANY BODY IN LAST 250 YEARS. It was puppet Saddam of Iraq who attacked Iran on his USA bushy master administration behalf.
IRAN HARDLY HAS ANY AIR FORCE & NAVY.
But USA mad administrative dogs talk about what if Iran will acquire nuck. They haven't yet.
This reason is so STUPID. The question is....
What about Pakistan already nuclear with ability to deliver.
What about Korea WHO THREATEN US RIGHT AT ITS FACE, what about Russia.
What about Mad Israel. Which is REAL THREAT WITH NUCKS to the whole Muslim world. If one look according to the MAD USA ADMINISTRATION PROSPECTIVE!!!
IT IS AGAIN PENTAGON + WHITE HOUSE driven Chaos and Conspiracy theory by Zionist controlled Media and stupid US masses again ONLY REPEATING media words like axe of evil, shia sunni, Iran Arabs bla bla bla without putting any burden OR strain on there brains to once try to think REALISTICLY, same way like they believed in there Tyrant Rulers when there Rulers bluntly lied about EVERY THING to attack Iraq and Afghanistan.

Sunni and Shia are living peacefully side by side ALL OVER THE WORLD.

Even in more than 8 year Iran and Iraq war raged by USA Bushy Administration Iraqi puppet. There was NO UNREST in Iraqi civil fabric. NO ONE was attacking the establishment in the Iraq; No kind of CIVIL DESTRUCION was in progress, raping, killing, bomb blasting CIVILIANS BEORE THE US ANIMALS INVASION was in progress.
It is the same 300 YEARS OLD COLONIAL divide and ruthless rule technique PRACTICED BY the US animals, kill the Shia blame the Sunni, kill the Sunni blame the Shia FUEL THE FIRE AND KILL CIVILIANS INDESCRIMINATELY in the name of collateral damage.
THE WHOLE WORLD AND MUSLIMS ARE VERY WELL AWARE OF IT.

Kuwait war was again raged by USA ANIMAL Bushy Administration Iraqi puppet.

In Bosnia and Kosovo case, YOU ANIMALS kept your CRIMNAL SILENCE FOR 2-3 YEARS until YOUR butchers were done and satisfied with there Muslim slaughter. YOU ANIMALS couldn't bear the Muslim independent state on your European Continent. Saving them after you are done and satisfied is a big B.S.!!

I REPEAT !!

If you and your KIND are not deaf OR blind??

Since millions & millions of Shia's are welcome by Saudi Sunni's every year on Hajj from the very beginning of time. AND millions & millions of Shia's and Sunni's perform Hajj TOGETHER STANDING SHOULDER TO SHOULDER every year DISPITE OF PENTAGON DRIVEN EVIL MEDIA PROPAGANDA!!

Saudia is a land of PEACE!

Hurray! Pentagon "Chaos Theory".

Don't worry, if needed, Saudi's will use these 60B arms from US on Israel. Since they are not in war with Iran or Shia's from the time Saudia came into being. (IF NEEDED means, if Fascist Israel ever tried to also show its aggression towards Saudis)

Anonymous,
"With Western Enlightenment and respect for the individual, we cannot win this war"
Rightly said by you Anonymous "You cannot win the WAR" because as you admitted your self,
Instead of reasoning YOU ALL are raging WAR.
And Muslims can't be convinced by your deceiving, bias polices and practices. Muslims see following common problems in the ENLIGHTED WEST which hardly exist OR stands out as very little in the Muslim masses and
"Are convincing enough NOT TO BE CONVIENCED”:
1- Chaos and Conspiracy theory practice towards Muslims to grab, still, occupy there lands and wealth and destroying there properties, lands and countries.
2- Your non-negotiation on real issues and brutal approach of enforcing your ideas upon Muslims.
AND WITH IN YOUR SOCIETIES HIGH RATE OF:
3- Moral degradation.
4- Incest (One of the reasons is FORCEFULLY giving kids from natural to un-natural parents).
5- Rape (Every second women get raped in her life time in your society).
6- Child molestation. (Reflects the SAFTY of children in your FREE SOCIET & in your CHURCHS).
7- Teenage pregnancies. (Shows the over all moral mind set of your masses, even kids are not left out any more).
8- Drugs and Alcohol addiction. (It is an unstoppable avalanche in your WHOLE society.)
9- Prostitution (every high street has savannahs & occupied by business women in the evenings)
10- Extreme racism against colored and all other kind of human breeds. Blacks are still facing the brunt.
11- Women’s exploitation in the name of freedom. (Telling them work equally hard and earn them selves. Is it possible for the mother of 2 or more to –i- raise children –ii- maintain house hold –iii- earn simultaneously. Even the strongest Will and nerves man can’t do it simultaneously with the kind of attention these responsibilities deserve NOW also consider in the keep changing natural physical demands of the women. It’s ACTUALLY FREEING THE MEN FROM ALL REAL RESPONSIBILITIES EXCEPT ONLY SEXUAL DESIRE & ITS FULFILLMENT.
12- Inhuman intervening UNBALANCED state laws about kids, women, men etc enslaving and making there lives hell.
13- High street crime rate.
14- Your enslaving & controlling corporate and mega chain brand INTEREST AND TAX BASED culture CRUSHING THE POOR SOCIETIES (ONLY providing freedom of EXPLOITATION to the rich masters).
And non convincing list is further very long............

AND we Muslims find ALL THE BALANCED LAWFUL SOLUTIONS of the above mentioned menaces in our religion Islam! THAT’S WHY THEY HARDLY EXIST IN OUR SOCIETIES IN GENERAL AND NOT FORCED BY ANY “GOVERNING BODY” WITH SUCH NEGATIVE IMPACT & INEFFECTIVE AS IN WEST.

In Islam,
Muslims DIFFRENCIATE between
- Free Speech (which is acceptable)
&
-Vulgar, obscene, insulting, abusive Slurs (which are not acceptable in Islam, UNLIKE WESTERN TRADITIONS WHERE EVERY THING GOES).

AND MR. "CCNL" IS ONE OF THE PREDOMINENT EXAMPLE OF IT!!!

Don't tell us SITTING AT DISTANCE, that we shouldn't be offended.
Go first abuse IN EVERY POSSIBLE WORD,
- the person present next to you, or
- your parents or
- your love ones.
And then tell us how do you FEEL?
(I guess VERY CONTENTED, HAPPY & GOOD according to your freedom of speech???)
&
And "THEN TELL US FIRST" how open heartedly your abused FALLAS accepted your EVERY POSSIBLE WAY verbal abuse?
Now "GO LOOK into the mirror". And then tell first DO YOU FEEL ANY DIFFERENCE?
I doubt !

Irshad is a fool, and an ignorant fool at that. Umar ibn al Khattab was not killed by a Muslim, but by a Zoroastrian. Jefferson's Quran was a translation titled "the Alcoran of the pseudoprophet Muhammad", so no need to congratulate Jefferson for his ecumenism. Moreover, Jefferson was a disgusting racist whose values are those of the enlightenment, that of the white man ruling over the rest of humanity.

We have a problem in Afghanistan and the people who wants to solve it are the real problems - Islamists and Secularists.

The Bible prophesied that the only way this would be settled is for the 2 camps to be extinguished or be "vaporized" - WW3.

Secularists are "unbelievers" and they are a disgrace to God. On the other hand false religions are commonly those who won't let people rationally criticize their faith like Islam and Catholicism which ruled Europe for centuries and no criticism was allowed. Those who can see fault in their religions are summarily executed like Jesus Christ for telling the Jews that they have a faulty interpretation of the word of God.

It was primarily the Baptists,who composed much of Rhode Island at that time, who pushed to end all of these by fighting for the "Establishment Clause" in the bill of rights. (Salvation is personal and being a Baptist does not save you. I just want to make that clear.)

Unless this Bill of Rights is added to Afghanistan's Constitution and Afghans learn to accept it, all else will just be waste of time, money and lots of lives.

And if America and the Bush administration don't know it, they are as blind as the 3 mice.

Judging from who the frontrunners are in the Presidential nomination, America all seems like a big bunch of blind mice.

WW3 is inevitable as the Bible prophesied coz the world is blind.

Manji
You can add my voice to yours.

I will lay aside for another day the fact that you favorably cite Jefferson and his watered down faith; except to say that even he admitted that having faith enhanced the likelihood that one will lead a virtuous life.

Regarding Afghanistan, there is nothing new here. It is a fact that religious and tribal customs make many in the country extremely conservative and foreign to the western countenance.

Deal with it.

History has shown that such believers, particularly in this region are least susceptible to changing at the point of a gun. You quote the Quran saying religion can't be forced; do you believe tolerance can?

Some Afghans favor the lifestyle they have become accustomed to; and they are closer to the taliban than America. Some are not.

Theirs is not the only country to have such vast differences. Look at Kenya, the former Yugoslavia, or Israel and the occupied territories. The fact is that our forefathers, particularly after WWI arbitrarily created states that lumped together people that hate each other.

Perhaps Afghanistan should be split into two parts; Taliban and modernist. Call it ethnic cleansing if you like, and some people will be forced to move, but it can't be much worse than it is now (and has been for decades).

Real tolerance sometimes means allowing others to live lifestyles we are opposed to. America only changed after the genocide of the native population, 600,000 plus killed in a civil war, thousands of Japanese placed in concentration camps during WWII (over 50 million dead worldwide)
and countless other injustices.

Indeed we are still evolving. This makes it kind of hard to tell the rest of the world how to live their lives.

I put my faith in faith, knowing that eventually things will get better.

As for Karzai, he wants to live. It's hard to criticize him under the circumstances.

We have a problem in Afghanistan and the people who wants to solve it are the real problems - Islamists and Secularists.

The Bible prophecied that the only way this would be settled is for the 2 camps to be extinguished or be "vaporized" - WW3.

Secularists are "unbelievers" and they are a disgrace to God. On the other hand false religions are commonly those who won't let people rationally criticize their faith like Islam and Catholicism which ruled Europe for centuries and no criticism was allowed. Those who can see fault in their religions are summarily executed like Jesus Christ for telling the Jews that they have a faulty interpretation of the word of God.

It was primarily the Baptists,who composed much of Rhode Island at that time, who pushed to end all of these by fighting for the "Establishment Clause" in the bill of rights.

Unless this Bill of Rights is added to Afghanistan's Constitution and Afghans learn to accept it, all else will just be waste of time, money and lots of lives.

And if America and the Bush administration don't know it, they are as blind as the 3 mice.

Judging from who the frontrunners are in the Presidential nomination, America all seems like a big bunch of blind mice.

WW3 is inevitable as the Bible prophecied coz the world is blind.

Manji's wiki bio:

"Manji was born in Uganda in 1968 to parents of Gujarati Indian and southern Egyptian background. Her family moved to Canada when she was four, as a result of Idi Amin's expulsion of South Asians. She and her family settled near Vancouver in 1972, and she grew up attending both a secular and an Islamic religious school, known as a madrassah. Manji excelled in the secular environment but, by her own account, was expelled from her religious school for asking too many questions. For the next twenty years, she studied Islam via public libraries and Arabic tutors.

Manji earned an honours degree in the history of ideas from the University of British Columbia. In 1990, she won the Governor General's Silver Medal for top humanities graduate. She worked as a legislative aide in the Canadian parliament, press secretary in the Ontario government, and speechwriter for the leader of the New Democratic Party. At age 24, she became the national affairs editorialist for the Ottawa Citizen and thus the youngest member of an editorial board for any Canadian daily. She has hosted or produced several public affairs programs on television, one of which won the Gemini, Canada’s top broadcasting prize. In 2002, she became writer-in-residence at Hart House in the University of Toronto, from where she began writing The Trouble with Islam Today. From 2005 to 2006 she was a visiting fellow with the International Security Studies program [2] at Yale University and is currently a senior fellow with the European Foundation for Democracy in Brussels. In early 2008, Manji will join New York University, where she will be spearheading the Moral Courage Project, an initiative to help young people speak truth to power within their own communities.

As an out lesbian, Manji participated in a regular segment on TVOntario's Studio 2 in the mid-1990s, representing progressive views in debates with conservative journalist Michael Coren. She later produced and hosted QT: QueerTelevision for the Toronto based Citytv in the late 1990s. Among the program's coverage of local and national LGBT issues, she also produced stories on the lives of gay people in the Muslim world. Upon the demise of the show, Manji donated the set's giant Q to the Pride Library at the University of Western Ontario.[3][4]

Manji was awarded Oprah Winfrey's first annual Chutzpah Award for "audacity, nerve, boldness and conviction". Ms. Magazine named her a "Feminist for the 21st Century", and Immigration Equality gave her its Global Vision Prize. The World Economic Forum selected her as a Young Global Leader.

Manji is a friend of controversial writer Salman Rushdie, who was subject to a fatwa (religious ruling) for his novel The Satanic Verses. Like Rushdie, she has received numerous death threats. In an interview with Glenn Beck, aired on CNN 02-13-07, Manji stated that the windows of her apartment are fitted with bullet-proof glass, primarily for the protection of her family."

To "To A. Kafir" and Anonymous:

Manji writes:

"America itself was founded as a theocracy whose clerics could be punitively dogmatic. The country needed several generations to figure out a workable separation of church and state."

You write: "If you have read history, if you know these facts, if you know what the writer intends to say about her own country, about what her country could become, then any defensive posturing just comes across as stupid nitpicking that misses the point."

LoL!! Unless you are Manji hiding behind anonymous postings, please tell me how would you know what Manji intends to say from what she wrote? How do you arrive that Manji meant colonies from what she wrote? She uses "America" and there she is obviously referring to "United States of America" as she starts the next sentence as "the country".
I thought her country was Canada and not America, and so what the heck are you taking about her own country?

Anonymous:

Thanks for sharing with us the happenings in Massachusetts Bay Colony circa 1641 and the wiki link you quoted- HOWEVER

In her post Manji stated:

"America itself was founded as a theocracy whose clerics could be punitively dogmatic."

I will point you to another wiki link:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_was_the_United_States_of_America_founded

"Most historians would agree that the "founding" of the United States of America begins with Thomas Jefferson's use of the name in the Declaration of Independance (JULY 4, 1776)- the first time the name was ever formally used.

The 13 Colonies made a unanimous declaration of independence official in July of 1776, but New Hampshire declared its independence prior to the other Colonies doing so. (See www.theus50.com.) The Union known as the United States of America was set up with the creation of the Articles of Confederation. When that document was found lacking, the Constitutional Convention of 1787 was called, and that led to a new form of government with the same name.

The United States was never really ever founded. It is a free country built by many thousands of free persons, whose efforts to improve it have created a single entity of strength unmatched by any other country.

The Founding Fathers, have been primarily identified as the members of the 2nd Continental Congress Assemblage, whom, through the insistance of Thomas Jefferson, drafted and signed the Declaration of Independence, officially casting off the tyranny of foreign controls, and igniting the Revolutionary War."

Best wishes in your quest for Truth.

By 1641, the colony had added its first code of laws, the Massachusetts Body of Liberties,[8] written by Nathaniel Ward, based partly on John Cotton's draft (Abstract of the Laws of New-England, As They Are Now Established),[9] which specified required behavior and punishments by appeal to the Judeo-Christian social sanctions recorded in the Bible. It is worthy of note that these men did not see any tension between the kind of theocracy they advocated and the type of democracy that was taking shape; to the contrary, they even held that the one required the other. For example: "All magistrates are to be chosen. Deut. 1:13, 17, 15. First, by the free [people]. Secondly, out of the free [people]."[10]. Indeed, the first person to be executed in the colony was Margaret Jones, a female physician accused of being a "witch".[11] A delusional Dorothy Talbye was hanged in 1638 for murdering her daughter, as at the time Massachusetts's common law made no distinction between insanity (or mental illness) and criminal behavior.[12] John Winthrop wanted the puritan colony to be a "city upon a hill" or an example of their faith for other colonies to follow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_Bay_Colony#A_Puritan_colony

One of my ancestors arrived in the new land via The Mayflower. He was a second son and a "stranger" looking for adventure and a new life.

The vast majority of our founding fathers were Christians hoping to escape religious persecution. (Its not hard to figure out which group of Christians named and settled in Maryland). These Believers wanted all people to be able to worship in the way they wished without government intrusion.

They formed a government respectful of its Christian/Judeo Believers (basing the laws on their moral codes) yet completely independent and separate from theocratic political control.

I believe the writer Manji takes the liberty of rewriting American history when she states:

"America itself was founded as a theocracy whose clerics could be punitively dogmatic."

Islam has a history of rewriting history when it is to an advantage in forwarding their beliefs- so I'm sure the readers here will forgive her this canard.

The above reply to Robert was from me, who neglected to fill in the name box.
--Georgiason

TO ROBERT:

You wrote:

"I would say apologies if my comment about the South offended you. But facts do matter sometimes."

What in God's name are you referring to? What FACTS are you talking about? My previous reply to you was to note the slanderous, uncalled for, PERSONAL attack on me that will exist forever as a pluperfect example of the words, mentality, and methods of a true bigot. How incredible that you still don't get it. You just don't get it that you are the mirror image of the ignorant, uncouth, white racist bigots you profess to most despise.

Try this: Re-post your original words--and then go through it line by line and cite each fact.

Based on nothing more than a geographical location, you are able to discern that someone is DUMB; that he is somehow connected to Sons of the Confederacy; and not only do you know that he reads the Bible, drinks Jack Daniels, and watches Fox news--you are able to discern that his family does all that, too!!!

All this from a nom de plume on a comment pointing out the factual error that someone made in saying that this country was founded as a theocracy! And you still don't get it!

Try this, you pathetic person. Suppose someone called himself BLACKGUY and wrote just what I did. And suppose someone replied:

"When I read a post from someone like the one from BLACKGUY, then I see how uneducated and DUMB some of us are here in the U.S.
Perhaps his name says it all. Don't you find that the last true vestige of ignorance in the U.S. is among black people? And by that I'm talking primarily about the Black Panthers.
BLACKGUY, you and your kin should put down your comic books, turn off the BET Channel, lay off the crack, and read something about our own history here. I'm just appalled and ashamed of such fellow Countrymen."

Does any light bulb yet go off in your pathetic little mind, Robert?

TO GEORGIASON wrote:

"Clearly the 'theocracy' in the article referred to the colonies."

Here are Ms. Manji's exact words:

"America itself was founded as a theocracy whose clerics could be punitively dogmatic. The country needed several generations to figure out a workable separation of church and state."

How you read those words as clearly referring to the colonies defies rational analysis. And even believing that the colonies were all theocratic would reveal mind-numbing ignorance about American history. Not to mention that the colonies, as of their founding, were separate and distinct political entities. In short, there was not some single something that was founded and became the United States.

To FACTSDONTMATTER, GeorgiaSon, and Chris Everett I would say apologies if my comment about the South offended you. But facts do matter sometimes.

This is not the view of a liberal northerner. I say this as a moderate republican living in the South.

You can speak to many open-minded southerners who are loyal to either party, and they will tell you that the South has not completely made peace with its racist past.

All southerners are not racist. But just look and observe the whole political scene in the South. Is there any doubt in what I'm logically stating being true?

I'm reminded of the quote that not all conservatives are closed-minded, but that all closed-minded people are conservative.

"Clear as mud" only if you don't know any history. Which is often the case with people who post here.

The United States weren't born of the Indian tribes that were here before the pilgrims, they weren't born of the slaves brought from Africa; they were born of the 13 colonies; and those 13 colonies started with religious refugees from England who indeed established a theocracy in Massachusetts Bay.

If you have read history, if you know these facts, if you know what the writer intends to say about her own country, about what her country could become, then any defensive posturing just comes across as stupid nitpicking that misses the point.

Sorry I must absent myself now, but it's brunch time.

To Georgiason writes: "Clearly the "theocracy" in the article referred to the colonies."

Clear as mud, perhaps. How can you and how do you stretch what Manji writes to make theorcracy into colonies. I am surprised you could even write that with a straight face.

Clearly the "theocracy" in the article referred to the colonies. That's what the pilgrims established, and she is correct in saying so.

Sure this was not the United States of America proper, but if you read for comprehension, it's evident what she meant.

The only provocation is in a paranoid reading of the text. No need to get excessively defensive.

Spreading freedom--

One daisy-cutter at a time.

As long as the Bushiites & Co. get to build their oil pipeline on safe ground, they don't care what happens to the people.

---

Wonderful article Ms. Manji-- we need frequent reminders of our government's lies. We have short memories, and even shorter attention spans. Thank you.

Replies to some of the responses to my post pointing out that Ms. Kanji told a lie when she stated that "America itself was founded as a theocracy whose clerics could be punitively dogmatic. The country needed several generations to figure out a workable separation of church and state."

TO ROBERT:

You win first place in On Faith’s contest to see who can post the most ad hominem attack (look it up) and unintentionally reveal himself to be a flaming bigot. You are among the finalists to retire the trophy. I’ll bet all the rational analysis in the world would never convince you that you are the mirror image of an overt white racist bigot who believes all black people are ignorant and inferior to him. But most people in this forum, whatever their viewpoint, are intelligent and rational, so I will leave it to them to draw the right conclusion. And leave you to stew in your own juices. What a pathetic person you are.

TO FACTSDONMATTER (although, I agree, your name is well chosen):

If you, too, can crawl down off your emoting with phrases like “flying off the handle” and “not expressing themselves particularly well”—that is, if you are capable of writing logical sentences instead of just emotional drivel—maybe you can show us that you have some worthwhile commentary to offer. That is, which of my words led to your schoolgirl-like gushing that I flew off the handle? A lie, for example is a lie, where ever it may be. And in what way did I not express myself well?

Now, don’t just post more adolescent name calling. Take my original words and show me and everybody what you did not find clearly expressed. The United States Constitution says, “Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion or the free exercise thereof.” It also forbids a religious test for running for public office. Thomas Jefferson authored the famous words that the Constitution established a wall of separation between church and state. John Adams went out of his way, as President, to include in his approval of a treaty the explicit statement that the United States in no way was established as a Christian nation.

What part of that does Ms. Manji not understand?

Finally to CHRIS EVERETT:

Thanks for your vote of approval. How strange that no one else, so far as I can discover, has bothered to note Ms. Manji’s gross distortion of American history and flagrant misstatement of the facts.

Islam is a false religion. See what Afghanistan did to a journalist who just stated what he thinks of Islam.

America is wasting a lot of money and American lives to install an equally dumb government after overthrowing a dumb one.

Europe was once a dumb continent (it's dumb now for another reason)when it was under Catholicism wherein nobody was allowed to criticize that religion.

If the U.S can't establish a "Bill of Rights" constitution in that place, it's all a waste for our military to stay in that place.

We're just defending a stupid government and society.

Ghys:
You say "destroying the Afghan Way of life which is none of the business of western murderers, plunderers and perverts"
We make it our business when the Taliban allow their country to be used as a base from which terrorists attack us. You and your like should feel very grateful to Allah that I and those who feel like me had no say in this matter.

Moody and Mike, Moody and Mike, Moody and Mike,

Some historic reality:

Moody, Moody, Moody,

More historic reality for you to peruse:

Indeed we are "surrounded" by one billion Muslims in this easy-accessible modern world. With the koran as their guide, they have been shouting "death to the infidels" for the last 1400 years not just since 1948.

The problem now is that we can hear and smell the stench of their warmongering message.

The solution: Delete the flaws in the koran and "pink slip" all the "red-neck" imams. "Pink-slipping" all the "red neck" Christian preachers, "profits" and priests and "we are the chosen" rabbis is also part of the solution.

Hmmm, if you trace it all back to the origins of the three major religions claiming Abraham as founder/father, you find the "pretty wingie thinges" as the essence and essentials of it all.

This then is the experience of it all and results in one major conclusion:

"Abrahamic” religions are hallucination-based and it is now time to end the charade!!!!