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the Puritans originally wanted to reform the Church of England. The Separatists had no such delusions and wanted a complete break. They did not come to the USA to build a theocracy of church and state. Just the opposite.

The religious people who came over on the Mayflower were Separatistss-separation of church and state. They were in fact fleeing for their lives. These people predated the Plymouth Colony but later joined together at least in name.

But I don't believe in war or war profiteering either.

A religion which can't tolerate other religions is a weak religion.

TIMOTHY said;
I believe the writer Manji takes the liberty of rewriting American history when she states:

"America itself was founded as a theocracy whose clerics could be punitively dogmatic."
---------------------------------------------------
Timothy, the early Colonies, despite their attempt to throw off the legacy of control of the Roman Catholic Church in Europe, still brought it's tyrannies here in the form of many preachers and theologians who were absolutely certain their way was the only way, & they florished in many places. Such absolute certainty is what Jefferson fought against, but it still existed, & it still exists today in the form of dogmatic peoples of all stripes today. I'm afraid absolutism is never going to go away, it pops up in every generation.

There were many theocratic communities in America, many religious experimental colonies set up as towns who built their own settlements all across the country, still do. The Puritans, the Quakers, the Shakers, the Amish, the Mormons, all had their own religious-based laws, even if they did not divorce themselves completely from the federal laws of the land. Their distinctiveness sometimes didn't last for long, such as the Shakers whose edict of celibacy doomed them to die out last century, leaving behind some of the most simple & elegantly beautiful furniture ever made. Their life motto: "Hands to work, hearts to God" was known & admired far beyond their communities, which thrived mostly in the 1800's. The Amish still exist, as do the Quakers & Mormons, but there were probably hundreds of others whose theme of living a life based on religious belief did not survive.

Note, the Mormons made concessions at times to keep from being wiped out, such as giving up polygamy, one of Joseph Smith's core tenets of belief. So their community today would probably not please Joseph Smith. Those who were not willing to compromise were most often the ones who no longer exist. I've heard there are small communities of sects now in sparsely-settled areas of the west, but we rarely hear of them unless they do something spectacular like commit mass suicide.

But still, you're right about the Federal government not being technically a theocracy.

I have always admired Thomas Jefferson's strong courage for standing up to the "powers-that-be" of his time, especially the religious people who firmly and unwaveringly were convinced they had god on their side. Jefferson did not live in fear, in fact sometimes I wonder if he ever feared anything or anybody. I think perhaps he enjoyed life too much to fear it.

It is unfortunate that Arabs are so often willing to let the most rigid and fanatical of their fellows to rule them. But they're not the only ones; the religious right here is responsible for many of the current evils of this country.

hahaha wrote : "please tell us-- who will vaporize us?"

Just look at Moody's postings and you'd get an idea.

THANKS TO: ANONYMOUS who wrote the item on the Mass. Bay Colony on February 4, 2008 1:49 AM.

Thanks for furthering the debate on whether America was established as a theocracy, as alleged by Ms. Manji, by introducing the fact that Roger Williams founded his colony specifically for the purpose of getting away from the idea of state-supported religion, i.e., a theocracy.

Those of you who've gotten this far, go back and read the bigotted response by Robert to my first reply to Ms. Manji, pointing out that her blanket claim that America was founded as a theocracy was, simply, a lie. And poor, smug Robert actually couched his reply in terms of showing his superior intelligence to DUMB (his word) Southerners!

"There are none so blind..."

Vaporized???

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Vaporized!!!

VAPORIZED!!!!

That's so... 1950's?

Whenever people forget to take their medication, we get "lively" threads like this one.

Please, oh Friendly Neighbor Spiderman 2 (that's right, #2!), please tell us-- who will vaporize us?

Is it... Dr. Octopus? Is it the Green Goblin? Is it... Electro? Or maybe Hydro-Man?

Please, tell us more!

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated,

The reason why the U.S is the greatest country is because it is the country that fit to the description of Apostle Paul which says that the children of faith and NOT the children of works (this includes the four major religions and some major false christian religions) will inherit and rule the earth. A big portion of the people in the U.S and even the first settlers in Portsmouth, Massachusetts believe that scripture. They inherit the prophecy by believing it. This country will ultimately rule the earth coz that is the prophecy.

The U.S. did not start WW2 but that was the beginning of the fulfillment of that prophecy and WW3 would establish it fully even though the U.S. won't start it.

That is the prophecy and those who would challenge it (there would be many) may temporarily win but in the final showdown, the prophecy would still prevail.

A lot of people will be "vaporized".

America has been protected by God from two World Wars but not this time because of the increasing liberalism and secularism among its people.

Salvation is personal and being a member of a religion would not save a person. But Eph. 2:8-10 and Jn 3:16 sums it all and those who live these verses in their hearts are the holders of true religion.

Well done USA Master Cockroaches.

Muslim doudts in Iraq are confirmed.

Much worse is & will be always expected from US ruling zionest pigs.

Moody, Moody, Moody,

Apparently the sins of Islam have not passed you by and you commit the typical following transgressions:

1. Believe in "pretty/ugly wingie" thingies and teach your children that such things really exist.

2. Believe that the long-dead, "stenchifying" Arab did actually talk to the "pretty Gabriel" in the hot "Gabe" cave and therein received the
"sin words" now listed in the koran.

3. That Sunnis are superior to Shiites in all aspects of life.

4. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7, 800 year-old blood feud between Sunnis and Shiites gives significant credence that hatred, anger, suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran. Having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of rape, lust and polygamy. The condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of hate, anger and greed.

Statistically
-more than 1 million Iraqi's are been butchered so far
-more than 4 million displaced.
-All major cities are destroyed. No electricity, no water, no sanitation no NOTHING.

On Al Jazeera net Analyst’s are

THANKING USA (Chaos & Conspiracy Masters) for,

1- Alienating millions of the Sunnis from the US established only Shia government.

2- And then branding them ALL SUNNI CIVILIANS as allies of Bathiest Previous (US breed & Groomed) Dictator. And projecting that idea through out world through its Zionist controlled media.
3- In result PROVOKING THE US MADE SHIA ESTABLISMENT to genocide Sunni civilians “AND OFFICIALLY KEEPING CRIMINAL SILENCE SUPPORTING AND PROVIDING WEOPENS”. (On Al Jazeera net Analyst’s comments).

WELL DONE USA MONSTOROUS MASTERS.
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK; YOUR DAYS ARE ACCOUNTED FOR.

Your stupid look bushy bush president recently visited Middle East and was trying to project the same evil propaganda.

He thinks like him the world is filled with blinds and fools!!!!

No wonder WHY now the extremely abused women EVEN preferring to blow them selves up after all the humility, WHO USED TO BE LIVING PIOUS AND RIGHTIOUS LIVES.

FOR ABUSED WOMEN REFERENC YOU CAN SEE USA TORTURE CELL SNAPS & MOVIES ALL OVER ELECTRONIC MEDIA.

The Riddles of the Devil/Jinn exposed!

Let it be known that by Islamic-Secret-Pact ;

Pakisatin is Afghanistan! And Afghanistan is Pakistan! Iran is King Satan between them! And

Jealous Saudi Arabia is the Mother Of Idolatary Loving Harlots! Not the Catholic Church!

iNCAMERA (Secret) IT (Lord, Holy No-Mon Eclat+i) via the ECLATi_N Prophecy (not OFF's) that the [un] Holy KABBA in JIDDAH SAUDi Arabia & the AL AQSA Dome in JERUSALEM will have the same fate as the 'Twin Towers of 911 [interestingly, see QURAN @ 9:111 et seq] and which "i" made my Living From & lost, and the same fate as the Pentagon!

Ya Ya! Good BYE KABBA & AL AQSA! Soon Soon Very Very Soon! BUT, BUT,

If Islam gives-Up "OSAMA BiN LADIN & his [un] Holy Lamps (Partners in Crime) by end of JUNE.2008, that Islam, via AFGHANiSTAN & PAKiSATAN & iRAN & Saudi will & can Avoid this Prophecy. There is no other way Out!

During the seventeenth century the combined New England colonies formed practically, if we except Rhode Island, one great Puritan commonwealth. They were under separate governments; but their aims and hopes, their laws, for the most part, and their past history were the same.

The people as a whole were liberty-loving in the extreme, but the individual was restrained at every step by laws that no free people of today would tolerate for an hour. Paternalism in government was the rule in the other colonies and in Europe, but nowhere was it carried to such an extreme as in New England.

Here the civil law laid its hand upon the citizen in his business and social relations; it regulated his religious affairs, it dictated his dress, and even invaded the home circle and directed his family relations. One law forbade the wearing of lace, another of "slashed cloaths other than one slash in each sleeve and another in the back." The length and width of a lady's sleeve was solemnly decided by law. It was a penal offense for a man to wear long hair, or to smoke in the street, or for a youth to court a maid without the consent of her parents. A man was not permitted to kiss his wife in public. Captain Kimble, returning from a three-years' ocean voyage, kissed his wife on his own doorstep and spent two hours in the stocks for his "lewed and unseemly behavior."

In the matter of education the Puritans stood in the forefront. Many of the clergy were men of classical education, and through their efforts Harvard College was founded but six years after the great exodus began. Before the middle of the century Massachusetts required every township of fifty families to employ a teacher to educate the young in reading and writing, while every township of one hundred families must maintain a grammar school. The other colonies soon followed with similar requirements.

But the most striking feature in the life of New England is found in its religion. The State was founded on religion, and religion was its life. The entire political, social, and industrial fabric was built on religion. Puritanism was painfully stern and somber; it was founded on the strictest, unmollified Calvinism; it breathed the air of legalism rather than of free grace, and received its inspiration from the Old Testament rather than the New.1

There was a gleam of truth in the charge of Mrs. Hutchinson that the Puritans lived under a covenant of works. This was because they had not yet fully grasped the whole truth of divine revelation. No further proof of the legalistic tendencies of Puritan worship is needed than a glance at their own laws. A man, for example, was fined, imprisoned, or whipped for non-attendance at church services. He was dealt with still more harshly if he spoke against religion or denied the divine origin of any book of the Bible.2 Laws were made that tended to force the conscience, to curb the freedom of the will, and to suppress the natural exuberance of youth -- laws that could not have been enacted and enforced by a people who comprehended the full meaning of Gospel liberty, or had caught that keynote of religious freedom sounded by the ancient prophet and resounded by St. Paul and Luther, "The just shall live by faith."

Nevertheless there is no more admirable character in history than the New England Puritan of the seventeenth century. His unswerving devotion to duty, his unlimited courage based on the fear of God, his love of liberty and hatred of tyranny -- these are the qualities that have enthroned him in the memory of the American people. We deplore the narrowness and intolerance of the puritans; but they were less narrow and intolerant than the English and most of the Europeans of that day. They committed errors, but they were willing to confess them when they saw them. They banished Roger Williams as a disturber of the peace, not for his opinions; but they bore witness to his spotless character. They executed a few Quakers, but confessed their error by repealing their own law. They fell into the witchcraft delusion, which was prevalent throughout Christendom at the time; but they were first to see the dreadful blunder they had made and they were not too proud to publicly confess it. Judge Sewall made, before a large congregation, a confession of his error as only a hero could have done; and he begged the people to pray "that God might not visit his sin upon him, his family, or upon the land." Such was a trait of the Puritan character that leads us to forget his faults and to admire rather than censure him.

New England developed steadily throughout the colonial era. The people were chiefly of the stanch yeomanry, the great middle class, of England. Many of them were men of fortune and standing in their native land. The people of Massachusetts were slow in reaching out from the seaboard; not till about 1725 did they begin to colonize the Berkshire Hills. The Connecticut Valley was more productive than other parts of New England, and the people of Connecticut were more purely agricultural in their pursuits than were those of any other portion, except New Hampshire. The chief industry of Rhode Island was trade, while Massachusetts was divided, agriculture and commerce holding about equal sway. Six hundred vessels plied between Boston and foreign ports, while the number of coasting vessels was still greater.

Manufacturing was carried on, but not on any great scale. Sawmills and gristmills were numerous along the rivers, and they did a large business in preparing timber and grain for transportation. Hats and paper and other commodities were made on a small scale; but the most extensive manufacturing was carried on by the farmers and their families, who made many of the utensils for their own home use, as will be noticed in a subsequent chapter.

The stern Puritan customs were gradually softened, more rapidly in Massachusetts than in Connecticut, owing to the many Crown officers residing in Boston. The first attempts to introduce the Episcopal form of religion were sternly resisted, but at length it found a footing, though not in Connecticut till well into the eighteenth century. About 1734 a religious revival, started by Jonathan Edwards and carried on by George Whitefield, the evangelist, spread over parts of New England, and to some extent revived the waning Puritan religious fervor.

The population at the opening of the Revolution reached nearly 700,000, about 300,000 of which was in Massachusetts, including Maine. Connecticut contained about 200,000 people, New Hampshire some 75,000 and Rhode Island some 50,000.3

All colonies had negro slaves, but very few in comparison with the southern colonies. Probably there were not more than 15,000 slaves in all New England, of whom Massachusetts and Connecticut had the majority. Indentured servants were slow in coming to New England, and when they came, their rights were guarded by salutary laws.

Footnotes

1The Puritan conscience was painfully overwrought. Nathan Mather wrote that in his youth he went astray from God and did dreadful things, such as whittling behind the door on Sunday. Sometimes a child would weep and wail in the fear that it was not one of the elect and would go to hell. [return]

2But such laws were not peculiar to New England. [return]

3See Lodge, p. 408.[return]

Pakisatin is Afghanista! And Afghanistan is Pakistan! Iran is King Satan between them!

"For preventing disorders, arising in several places within this jurisdiction by reason of some still observing such festivals as were superstitiously kept in other communities, to the great dishonor of God and offense of others: it is therefore ordered by this court and the authority thereof that whosoever shall be found observing any such day as Christmas or the like, either by forbearing of labor, feasting, or any other way, upon any such account as aforesaid, every such person so offending shall pay for every such offence five shilling as a fine to the county."

From the records of the General Court,
Massachusetts Bay Colony
May 11, 1659

iNCAMERA (Secret) IT (Lord, Holy No-Mon Eclat+i) via the ECLATi_N Prophecy (not OFF's) that the [un] Holy KABBA in JIDDAH SAUDi Arabia & the AL AQSA Dome in JERUSALEM will have the same fate as the 'Twin Towers of 911 [interestingly, see QURAN @ 9:111 et seq] and which "i" made my Living From & lost, and the same fate as the Pentagon!

Ya Ya! Good BYE KABBA & AL AQSA! Soon Soon Very Very Soon! BUT, BUT,

If Islam gives-Up "OSAMA BiN LADIN & his [un] Holy Lamps (Partners in Crime) by end of JUNE.2008, that Islam, via AFGHANiSTAN & PAKiSATAN & iRAN & Saudi will & can Avoid this Prophecy. There is no other way Out!

Sorry Spidee! Please accept this Apocalyptarian Prophecy or Perish soon soon very Soon!

Note: IT's O.K. if Osama Bin Ladin & his Lamps comeforth "DEAD OR ALIVE". Note: ALL His Children will also have a Calamity if he is so scared to die & show up dead or alive!

PleasePlease, get the Word out to all your AL TAQIYA Elders of Islamic Zionism! Thanks!

Please, do not climb any walls! Ya Ya, ye will see the Power of the FORCE!

Artist: Roger Williams

Confronting Bodies: Massachusetts Bay Colony

Date of Action: 1635

Specific Location: Massachusetts Bay Colony

Description of Artwork: Roger Williams was an outspoken advocate of religious freedom, and was one of the first challengers of Puritan Theocracy.

Description of Incident: Williams was banished from the Massachusetts Bay Colony for his toleration and support for religious diversity, which included, "Jews, Pagans, and Turks." His defiance over state control over religious freedom led to his expulsion from the state. Williams moved to Rhode Island and founded the city of Providence. In 1644, Williams wrote a book on religious freedom, democracy and intellectual freedom, "The Bloody Tenent of Persecution."

Results of Incident: In 1936, 300 years after Williams expulsion from the former colony, the state legislature retracted its expulsion order.

Source: New York Public Library

Moody, Moody, Moody,

You are indeed in some sort of snit!!!!

And by the way, I am not Jewish but some of my best friends are as are those Muslims of the New Order i.e. Salman Rushdie and Hirsi Ali. Base religion is Catholicism, educated by some of the best of the the best i.e. the Franciscan Friars, Sisters and Brothers.

It appears you are more than ready for that Five Step Program for Cleansing of those flawed Islamic Neurons. Are you ready to begin??

Muhammad writes: "Umar ibn al Khattab was not killed by a Muslim, but by a Zoroastrian".

You must be a sunni. Shia regard Abu Lu'lu'ah the killer of Umar as Shia. Shias have great stories about the bravery of Abu Lu'lu'ah, and how he escaped after killing Umar and died seven years later. Sunnis claim he was caught and was killed right away. Sunni and Shias do agree that Ubyadullah, son of Umar, killed Abu Lu'lu'ah' wife, and children. Uthman pardoned him for the blood of innocents. Islamic justice for you right from the start of Islam!!

For Your Information: this is a utube of a Human Rights Service interview of Mariwan Halabjaee, another example of the typical Muslim violent response to any criticism of Islam.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=pBtyrrZ39IM

"Mariwan Halabjaee,* "the Salman Rushdie of Iraqi Kurdistan," is the author of the book "Sex, Sharia and Women in the History of Islam." The book is about how Islam and Sharia law are allegedly used to oppress Muslim women. "I wanted to prove how oppressed women are in Islam and that they have no rights," said Mr. Halabjaee. "My book is based on Islamic sources such as the Holy Quran, Muslim and Bukhari books and many more."

Mr. Halabjaee was forced to flee to Norway from Iraqi Kurdistan because the Islamic League of Kurdistan issued a "conditional" fatwa to kill him if he did not repent and apologize for writing his book. The "conditional" nature of the fatal fatwa was uncertain at best. Mr. Halabjaee reported, "the mullahs and scholars said if I go to them and apologize they will give me 80 lashes and then refer me to the fatwa committee to decide if I am to be beheaded. They might forgive me, they might not."

Mr. Halabjaee received telephone calls saying, "Now, in 10 years or 15 years, we will kill you." Another time, Mr. Halabjaee reported, "the Islamists said once from the radio, if they found out where I was, they would blow themselves up with me." The worst thing was realizing his wife and children were in danger. "With that book I wanted to defend women but the first thing I did was hurt my wife." As a result, Mr. Halabjaee went into hiding with his pregnant wife and three children.

Mr. Halabjaee fled Iraqi Kurdistan after the Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) refused to offer him any protection or to arrest those who threatened his life. "The Kurdish authorities have not provided any protection from threats and fatwas," said Mr. Halabjaee, "any moment I am expecting a bullet or a hand grenade to be thrown into where I live."

In response to the Halabjaee affair, the KRG Minister of Religious Issues, Dr. Mohammad Gaznayi, told protestors that according to the law of Iraqi Kurdistan, "defamation" or "criticizing" religion or religious figures is a crime and its punishment is severe. "We will give those who attack our prophets a sentence so that they can be a lesson for everyone," said Dr. Gaznayi. [Dr. Gaznayi is the same KRG Minister of Religious Issues who said, "I consider that those who turn to Christianity pose a threat to society."] Mr. Halabjaee was in possession of a warrant for his arrest issued by the Suleimaniya police department when he fled Iraqi Kurdistan.

In August 2006, Mr. Halabjaee was granted political asylum in Norway.

In December 2007, Mr. Halabjaee was convicted in absentia in Iraqi Kurdistan for the crime of blasphemy. A court in Halabja sentenced Mr. Halabjaee to six months in prison for writing that the prophet Mohammed had 19 wives, married a 9-year-old when he was 54 years old, and committed murder and rape. Mr. Halabjaee remains in hiding in Norway. The sentence states that he will be arrested upon his return to Iraqi Kurdistan."

To the great fan and admirer CCNL
Of
USA masters "FATHER OF ALL DEVILS”?
Rightly said by Iranian President before US mad bushy bush use the words axe.o.e.

AND below is the kind of LIBRATION AND FREEDOM your SECULAR, CAPTILIST, DEMOCARTE, CORPORATE MONSTOR ADMINISTRATION ESTABLISHMENT is providing to the world NOW for more than half century. YOU ARE SO PROUD OF.

CCNL & ALL the blood bath Admirers:

Now the World is fully aware of USA
1- Pentagon military organization "Chaos Theory" all over the world to support its Weapon Industry with more than 18000 fighter plans and more than 1800 war ships IN SERVICE which ALONE IS BIGGEST THEN THE REST OF THE WORLD WEAPON INDUSTRIES & ARMS IN SERVICE COLLECTIVELY including Russia, China, India, Europe, NATO etc. And responsible of supplying illegal weapons all over the world FUELING ALL KIND OF BLOOD SHED ESPECIALLY IN CONTINENT OF AFRICA & MIDDLE EAST.
2- And USA White House civilian government "Conspiracy theory" to support its advances to control world resources.
Your and your Govt. credibility SUCKS.
Liars and conspirers!!!
Your pentagon driven Media conspires and All US dumb heads do is just follow the media slogans.
For example:
YOU and your stupid Bushy Bush call Iran Exe of Evil.
If some body with the slightest sense analysis. IRAN HAS NEVER SHOWN AGGRESSION WITH ANY BODY IN LAST 250 YEARS. It was puppet Saddam of Iraq who attacked Iran on his USA bushy master administration behalf.
IRAN HARDLY HAS ANY AIR FORCE & NAVY.
But USA mad administrative dogs talk about what if Iran will acquire nuck. They haven't yet.
This reason is so STUPID. The question is....
What about Pakistan already nuclear with ability to deliver.
What about Korea WHO THREATEN US RIGHT AT ITS FACE, what about Russia.
What about Mad Israel. Which is REAL THREAT WITH NUCKS to the whole Muslim world. If one look according to the MAD USA ADMINISTRATION PROSPECTIVE!!!
IT IS AGAIN PENTAGON + WHITE HOUSE driven Chaos and Conspiracy theory by Zionist controlled Media and stupid US masses again ONLY REPEATING media words like axe of evil, shia sunni, Iran Arabs bla bla bla without putting any burden OR strain on there brains to once try to think REALISTICLY, same way like they believed in there Tyrant Rulers when there Rulers bluntly lied about EVERY THING to attack Iraq and Afghanistan.

Sunni and Shia are living peacefully side by side ALL OVER THE WORLD.

Even in more than 8 year Iran and Iraq war raged by USA Bushy Administration Iraqi puppet. There was NO UNREST in Iraqi civil fabric. NO ONE was attacking the establishment in the Iraq; No kind of CIVIL DESTRUCION was in progress, raping, killing, bomb blasting CIVILIANS BEORE THE US ANIMALS INVASION was in progress.
It is the same 300 YEARS OLD COLONIAL divide and ruthless rule technique PRACTICED BY the US animals, kill the Shia blame the Sunni, kill the Sunni blame the Shia FUEL THE FIRE AND KILL CIVILIANS INDESCRIMINATELY in the name of collateral damage.
THE WHOLE WORLD AND MUSLIMS ARE VERY WELL AWARE OF IT.

Kuwait war was again raged by USA ANIMAL Bushy Administration Iraqi puppet.

In Bosnia and Kosovo case, YOU ANIMALS kept your CRIMNAL SILENCE FOR 2-3 YEARS until YOUR butchers were done and satisfied with there Muslim slaughter. YOU ANIMALS couldn't bear the Muslim independent state on your European Continent. Saving them after you are done and satisfied is a big B.S.!!

I REPEAT !!

If you and your KIND are not deaf OR blind??

Since millions & millions of Shia's are welcome by Saudi Sunni's every year on Hajj from the very beginning of time. AND millions & millions of Shia's and Sunni's perform Hajj TOGETHER STANDING SHOULDER TO SHOULDER every year DISPITE OF PENTAGON DRIVEN EVIL MEDIA PROPAGANDA!!

Saudia is a land of PEACE!

Hurray! Pentagon "Chaos Theory".

Don't worry, if needed, Saudi's will use these 60B arms from US on Israel. Since they are not in war with Iran or Shia's from the time Saudia came into being. (IF NEEDED means, if Fascist Israel ever tried to also show its aggression towards Saudis)

Anonymous,
"With Western Enlightenment and respect for the individual, we cannot win this war"
Rightly said by you Anonymous "You cannot win the WAR" because as you admitted your self,
Instead of reasoning YOU ALL are raging WAR.
And Muslims can't be convinced by your deceiving, bias polices and practices. Muslims see following common problems in the ENLIGHTED WEST which hardly exist OR stands out as very little in the Muslim masses and
"Are convincing enough NOT TO BE CONVIENCED”:
1- Chaos and Conspiracy theory practice towards Muslims to grab, still, occupy there lands and wealth and destroying there properties, lands and countries.
2- Your non-negotiation on real issues and brutal approach of enforcing your ideas upon Muslims.
AND WITH IN YOUR SOCIETIES HIGH RATE OF:
3- Moral degradation.
4- Incest (One of the reasons is FORCEFULLY giving kids from natural to un-natural parents).
5- Rape (Every second women get raped in her life time in your society).
6- Child molestation. (Reflects the SAFTY of children in your FREE SOCIET & in your CHURCHS).
7- Teenage pregnancies. (Shows the over all moral mind set of your masses, even kids are not left out any more).
8- Drugs and Alcohol addiction. (It is an unstoppable avalanche in your WHOLE society.)
9- Prostitution (every high street has savannahs & occupied by business women in the evenings)
10- Extreme racism against colored and all other kind of human breeds. Blacks are still facing the brunt.
11- Women’s exploitation in the name of freedom. (Telling them work equally hard and earn them selves. Is it possible for the mother of 2 or more to –i- raise children –ii- maintain house hold –iii- earn simultaneously. Even the strongest Will and nerves man can’t do it simultaneously with the kind of attention these responsibilities deserve NOW also consider in the keep changing natural physical demands of the women. It’s ACTUALLY FREEING THE MEN FROM ALL REAL RESPONSIBILITIES EXCEPT ONLY SEXUAL DESIRE & ITS FULFILLMENT.
12- Inhuman intervening UNBALANCED state laws about kids, women, men etc enslaving and making there lives hell.
13- High street crime rate.
14- Your enslaving & controlling corporate and mega chain brand INTEREST AND TAX BASED culture CRUSHING THE POOR SOCIETIES (ONLY providing freedom of EXPLOITATION to the rich masters).
And non convincing list is further very long............

AND we Muslims find ALL THE BALANCED LAWFUL SOLUTIONS of the above mentioned menaces in our religion Islam! THAT’S WHY THEY HARDLY EXIST IN OUR SOCIETIES IN GENERAL AND NOT FORCED BY ANY “GOVERNING BODY” WITH SUCH NEGATIVE IMPACT & INEFFECTIVE AS IN WEST.

In Islam,
Muslims DIFFRENCIATE between
- Free Speech (which is acceptable)
&
-Vulgar, obscene, insulting, abusive Slurs (which are not acceptable in Islam, UNLIKE WESTERN TRADITIONS WHERE EVERY THING GOES).

AND MR. "CCNL" IS ONE OF THE PREDOMINENT EXAMPLE OF IT!!!

Don't tell us SITTING AT DISTANCE, that we shouldn't be offended.
Go first abuse IN EVERY POSSIBLE WORD,
- the person present next to you, or
- your parents or
- your love ones.
And then tell us how do you FEEL?
(I guess VERY CONTENTED, HAPPY & GOOD according to your freedom of speech???)
&
And "THEN TELL US FIRST" how open heartedly your abused FALLAS accepted your EVERY POSSIBLE WAY verbal abuse?
Now "GO LOOK into the mirror". And then tell first DO YOU FEEL ANY DIFFERENCE?
I doubt !

Irshad is a fool, and an ignorant fool at that. Umar ibn al Khattab was not killed by a Muslim, but by a Zoroastrian. Jefferson's Quran was a translation titled "the Alcoran of the pseudoprophet Muhammad", so no need to congratulate Jefferson for his ecumenism. Moreover, Jefferson was a disgusting racist whose values are those of the enlightenment, that of the white man ruling over the rest of humanity.

We have a problem in Afghanistan and the people who wants to solve it are the real problems - Islamists and Secularists.

The Bible prophesied that the only way this would be settled is for the 2 camps to be extinguished or be "vaporized" - WW3.

Secularists are "unbelievers" and they are a disgrace to God. On the other hand false religions are commonly those who won't let people rationally criticize their faith like Islam and Catholicism which ruled Europe for centuries and no criticism was allowed. Those who can see fault in their religions are summarily executed like Jesus Christ for telling the Jews that they have a faulty interpretation of the word of God.

It was primarily the Baptists,who composed much of Rhode Island at that time, who pushed to end all of these by fighting for the "Establishment Clause" in the bill of rights. (Salvation is personal and being a Baptist does not save you. I just want to make that clear.)

Unless this Bill of Rights is added to Afghanistan's Constitution and Afghans learn to accept it, all else will just be waste of time, money and lots of lives.

And if America and the Bush administration don't know it, they are as blind as the 3 mice.

Judging from who the frontrunners are in the Presidential nomination, America all seems like a big bunch of blind mice.

WW3 is inevitable as the Bible prophesied coz the world is blind.

Manji
You can add my voice to yours.

I will lay aside for another day the fact that you favorably cite Jefferson and his watered down faith; except to say that even he admitted that having faith enhanced the likelihood that one will lead a virtuous life.

Regarding Afghanistan, there is nothing new here. It is a fact that religious and tribal customs make many in the country extremely conservative and foreign to the western countenance.

Deal with it.

History has shown that such believers, particularly in this region are least susceptible to changing at the point of a gun. You quote the Quran saying religion can't be forced; do you believe tolerance can?

Some Afghans favor the lifestyle they have become accustomed to; and they are closer to the taliban than America. Some are not.

Theirs is not the only country to have such vast differences. Look at Kenya, the former Yugoslavia, or Israel and the occupied territories. The fact is that our forefathers, particularly after WWI arbitrarily created states that lumped together people that hate each other.

Perhaps Afghanistan should be split into two parts; Taliban and modernist. Call it ethnic cleansing if you like, and some people will be forced to move, but it can't be much worse than it is now (and has been for decades).

Real tolerance sometimes means allowing others to live lifestyles we are opposed to. America only changed after the genocide of the native population, 600,000 plus killed in a civil war, thousands of Japanese placed in concentration camps during WWII (over 50 million dead worldwide)
and countless other injustices.

Indeed we are still evolving. This makes it kind of hard to tell the rest of the world how to live their lives.

I put my faith in faith, knowing that eventually things will get better.

As for Karzai, he wants to live. It's hard to criticize him under the circumstances.

We have a problem in Afghanistan and the people who wants to solve it are the real problems - Islamists and Secularists.

The Bible prophecied that the only way this would be settled is for the 2 camps to be extinguished or be "vaporized" - WW3.

Secularists are "unbelievers" and they are a disgrace to God. On the other hand false religions are commonly those who won't let people rationally criticize their faith like Islam and Catholicism which ruled Europe for centuries and no criticism was allowed. Those who can see fault in their religions are summarily executed like Jesus Christ for telling the Jews that they have a faulty interpretation of the word of God.

It was primarily the Baptists,who composed much of Rhode Island at that time, who pushed to end all of these by fighting for the "Establishment Clause" in the bill of rights.

Unless this Bill of Rights is added to Afghanistan's Constitution and Afghans learn to accept it, all else will just be waste of time, money and lots of lives.

And if America and the Bush administration don't know it, they are as blind as the 3 mice.

Judging from who the frontrunners are in the Presidential nomination, America all seems like a big bunch of blind mice.

WW3 is inevitable as the Bible prophecied coz the world is blind.

Manji's wiki bio:

"Manji was born in Uganda in 1968 to parents of Gujarati Indian and southern Egyptian background. Her family moved to Canada when she was four, as a result of Idi Amin's expulsion of South Asians. She and her family settled near Vancouver in 1972, and she grew up attending both a secular and an Islamic religious school, known as a madrassah. Manji excelled in the secular environment but, by her own account, was expelled from her religious school for asking too many questions. For the next twenty years, she studied Islam via public libraries and Arabic tutors.

Manji earned an honours degree in the history of ideas from the University of British Columbia. In 1990, she won the Governor General's Silver Medal for top humanities graduate. She worked as a legislative aide in the Canadian parliament, press secretary in the Ontario government, and speechwriter for the leader of the New Democratic Party. At age 24, she became the national affairs editorialist for the Ottawa Citizen and thus the youngest member of an editorial board for any Canadian daily. She has hosted or produced several public affairs programs on television, one of which won the Gemini, Canada’s top broadcasting prize. In 2002, she became writer-in-residence at Hart House in the University of Toronto, from where she began writing The Trouble with Islam Today. From 2005 to 2006 she was a visiting fellow with the International Security Studies program [2] at Yale University and is currently a senior fellow with the European Foundation for Democracy in Brussels. In early 2008, Manji will join New York University, where she will be spearheading the Moral Courage Project, an initiative to help young people speak truth to power within their own communities.

As an out lesbian, Manji participated in a regular segment on TVOntario's Studio 2 in the mid-1990s, representing progressive views in debates with conservative journalist Michael Coren. She later produced and hosted QT: QueerTelevision for the Toronto based Citytv in the late 1990s. Among the program's coverage of local and national LGBT issues, she also produced stories on the lives of gay people in the Muslim world. Upon the demise of the show, Manji donated the set's giant Q to the Pride Library at the University of Western Ontario.[3][4]

Manji was awarded Oprah Winfrey's first annual Chutzpah Award for "audacity, nerve, boldness and conviction". Ms. Magazine named her a "Feminist for the 21st Century", and Immigration Equality gave her its Global Vision Prize. The World Economic Forum selected her as a Young Global Leader.

Manji is a friend of controversial writer Salman Rushdie, who was subject to a fatwa (religious ruling) for his novel The Satanic Verses. Like Rushdie, she has received numerous death threats. In an interview with Glenn Beck, aired on CNN 02-13-07, Manji stated that the windows of her apartment are fitted with bullet-proof glass, primarily for the protection of her family."

To "To A. Kafir" and Anonymous:

Manji writes:

"America itself was founded as a theocracy whose clerics could be punitively dogmatic. The country needed several generations to figure out a workable separation of church and state."

You write: "If you have read history, if you know these facts, if you know what the writer intends to say about her own country, about what her country could become, then any defensive posturing just comes across as stupid nitpicking that misses the point."

LoL!! Unless you are Manji hiding behind anonymous postings, please tell me how would you know what Manji intends to say from what she wrote? How do you arrive that Manji meant colonies from what she wrote? She uses "America" and there she is obviously referring to "United States of America" as she starts the next sentence as "the country".
I thought her country was Canada and not America, and so what the heck are you taking about her own country?

Anonymous:

Thanks for sharing with us the happenings in Massachusetts Bay Colony circa 1641 and the wiki link you quoted- HOWEVER

In her post Manji stated:

"America itself was founded as a theocracy whose clerics could be punitively dogmatic."

I will point you to another wiki link:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_was_the_United_States_of_America_founded

"Most historians would agree that the "founding" of the United States of America begins with Thomas Jefferson's use of the name in the Declaration of Independance (JULY 4, 1776)- the first time the name was ever formally used.

The 13 Colonies made a unanimous declaration of independence official in July of 1776, but New Hampshire declared its independence prior to the other Colonies doing so. (See www.theus50.com.) The Union known as the United States of America was set up with the creation of the Articles of Confederation. When that document was found lacking, the Constitutional Convention of 1787 was called, and that led to a new form of government with the same name.

The United States was never really ever founded. It is a free country built by many thousands of free persons, whose efforts to improve it have created a single entity of strength unmatched by any other country.

The Founding Fathers, have been primarily identified as the members of the 2nd Continental Congress Assemblage, whom, through the insistance of Thomas Jefferson, drafted and signed the Declaration of Independence, officially casting off the tyranny of foreign controls, and igniting the Revolutionary War."

Best wishes in your quest for Truth.

By 1641, the colony had added its first code of laws, the Massachusetts Body of Liberties,[8] written by Nathaniel Ward, based partly on John Cotton's draft (Abstract of the Laws of New-England, As They Are Now Established),[9] which specified required behavior and punishments by appeal to the Judeo-Christian social sanctions recorded in the Bible. It is worthy of note that these men did not see any tension between the kind of theocracy they advocated and the type of democracy that was taking shape; to the contrary, they even held that the one required the other. For example: "All magistrates are to be chosen. Deut. 1:13, 17, 15. First, by the free [people]. Secondly, out of the free [people]."[10]. Indeed, the first person to be executed in the colony was Margaret Jones, a female physician accused of being a "witch".[11] A delusional Dorothy Talbye was hanged in 1638 for murdering her daughter, as at the time Massachusetts's common law made no distinction between insanity (or mental illness) and criminal behavior.[12] John Winthrop wanted the puritan colony to be a "city upon a hill" or an example of their faith for other colonies to follow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_Bay_Colony#A_Puritan_colony

One of my ancestors arrived in the new land via The Mayflower. He was a second son and a "stranger" looking for adventure and a new life.

The vast majority of our founding fathers were Christians hoping to escape religious persecution. (Its not hard to figure out which group of Christians named and settled in Maryland). These Believers wanted all people to be able to worship in the way they wished without government intrusion.

They formed a government respectful of its Christian/Judeo Believers (basing the laws on their moral codes) yet completely independent and separate from theocratic political control.

I believe the writer Manji takes the liberty of rewriting American history when she states:

"America itself was founded as a theocracy whose clerics could be punitively dogmatic."

Islam has a history of rewriting history when it is to an advantage in forwarding their beliefs- so I'm sure the readers here will forgive her this canard.

The above reply to Robert was from me, who neglected to fill in the name box.
--Georgiason

TO ROBERT:

You wrote:

"I would say apologies if my comment about the South offended you. But facts do matter sometimes."

What in God's name are you referring to? What FACTS are you talking about? My previous reply to you was to note the slanderous, uncalled for, PERSONAL attack on me that will exist forever as a pluperfect example of the words, mentality, and methods of a true bigot. How incredible that you still don't get it. You just don't get it that you are the mirror image of the ignorant, uncouth, white racist bigots you profess to most despise.

Try this: Re-post your original words--and then go through it line by line and cite each fact.

Based on nothing more than a geographical location, you are able to discern that someone is DUMB; that he is somehow connected to Sons of the Confederacy; and not only do you know that he reads the Bible, drinks Jack Daniels, and watches Fox news--you are able to discern that his family does all that, too!!!

All this from a nom de plume on a comment pointing out the factual error that someone made in saying that this country was founded as a theocracy! And you still don't get it!

Try this, you pathetic person. Suppose someone called himself BLACKGUY and wrote just what I did. And suppose someone replied:

"When I read a post from someone like the one from BLACKGUY, then I see how uneducated and DUMB some of us are here in the U.S.
Perhaps his name says it all. Don't you find that the last true vestige of ignorance in the U.S. is among black people? And by that I'm talking primarily about the Black Panthers.
BLACKGUY, you and your kin should put down your comic books, turn off the BET Channel, lay off the crack, and read something about our own history here. I'm just appalled and ashamed of such fellow Countrymen."

Does any light bulb yet go off in your pathetic little mind, Robert?

TO GEORGIASON wrote:

"Clearly the 'theocracy' in the article referred to the colonies."

Here are Ms. Manji's exact words:

"America itself was founded as a theocracy whose clerics could be punitively dogmatic. The country needed several generations to figure out a workable separation of church and state."

How you read those words as clearly referring to the colonies defies rational analysis. And even believing that the colonies were all theocratic would reveal mind-numbing ignorance about American history. Not to mention that the colonies, as of their founding, were separate and distinct political entities. In short, there was not some single something that was founded and became the United States.

To FACTSDONTMATTER, GeorgiaSon, and Chris Everett I would say apologies if my comment about the South offended you. But facts do matter sometimes.

This is not the view of a liberal northerner. I say this as a moderate republican living in the South.

You can speak to many open-minded southerners who are loyal to either party, and they will tell you that the South has not completely made peace with its racist past.

All southerners are not racist. But just look and observe the whole political scene in the South. Is there any doubt in what I'm logically stating being true?

I'm reminded of the quote that not all conservatives are closed-minded, but that all closed-minded people are conservative.

"Clear as mud" only if you don't know any history. Which is often the case with people who post here.

The United States weren't born of the Indian tribes that were here before the pilgrims, they weren't born of the slaves brought from Africa; they were born of the 13 colonies; and those 13 colonies started with religious refugees from England who indeed established a theocracy in Massachusetts Bay.

If you have read history, if you know these facts, if you know what the writer intends to say about her own country, about what her country could become, then any defensive posturing just comes across as stupid nitpicking that misses the point.

Sorry I must absent myself now, but it's brunch time.

To Georgiason writes: "Clearly the "theocracy" in the article referred to the colonies."

Clear as mud, perhaps. How can you and how do you stretch what Manji writes to make theorcracy into colonies. I am surprised you could even write that with a straight face.

Clearly the "theocracy" in the article referred to the colonies. That's what the pilgrims established, and she is correct in saying so.

Sure this was not the United States of America proper, but if you read for comprehension, it's evident what she meant.

The only provocation is in a paranoid reading of the text. No need to get excessively defensive.

Spreading freedom--

One daisy-cutter at a time.

As long as the Bushiites & Co. get to build their oil pipeline on safe ground, they don't care what happens to the people.

---

Wonderful article Ms. Manji-- we need frequent reminders of our government's lies. We have short memories, and even shorter attention spans. Thank you.

Replies to some of the responses to my post pointing out that Ms. Kanji told a lie when she stated that "America itself was founded as a theocracy whose clerics could be punitively dogmatic. The country needed several generations to figure out a workable separation of church and state."

TO ROBERT:

You win first place in On Faith’s contest to see who can post the most ad hominem attack (look it up) and unintentionally reveal himself to be a flaming bigot. You are among the finalists to retire the trophy. I’ll bet all the rational analysis in the world would never convince you that you are the mirror image of an overt white racist bigot who believes all black people are ignorant and inferior to him. But most people in this forum, whatever their viewpoint, are intelligent and rational, so I will leave it to them to draw the right conclusion. And leave you to stew in your own juices. What a pathetic person you are.

TO FACTSDONMATTER (although, I agree, your name is well chosen):

If you, too, can crawl down off your emoting with phrases like “flying off the handle” and “not expressing themselves particularly well”—that is, if you are capable of writing logical sentences instead of just emotional drivel—maybe you can show us that you have some worthwhile commentary to offer. That is, which of my words led to your schoolgirl-like gushing that I flew off the handle? A lie, for example is a lie, where ever it may be. And in what way did I not express myself well?

Now, don’t just post more adolescent name calling. Take my original words and show me and everybody what you did not find clearly expressed. The United States Constitution says, “Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion or the free exercise thereof.” It also forbids a religious test for running for public office. Thomas Jefferson authored the famous words that the Constitution established a wall of separation between church and state. John Adams went out of his way, as President, to include in his approval of a treaty the explicit statement that the United States in no way was established as a Christian nation.

What part of that does Ms. Manji not understand?

Finally to CHRIS EVERETT:

Thanks for your vote of approval. How strange that no one else, so far as I can discover, has bothered to note Ms. Manji’s gross distortion of American history and flagrant misstatement of the facts.

Islam is a false religion. See what Afghanistan did to a journalist who just stated what he thinks of Islam.

America is wasting a lot of money and American lives to install an equally dumb government after overthrowing a dumb one.

Europe was once a dumb continent (it's dumb now for another reason)when it was under Catholicism wherein nobody was allowed to criticize that religion.

If the U.S can't establish a "Bill of Rights" constitution in that place, it's all a waste for our military to stay in that place.

We're just defending a stupid government and society.

Ghys:
You say "destroying the Afghan Way of life which is none of the business of western murderers, plunderers and perverts"
We make it our business when the Taliban allow their country to be used as a base from which terrorists attack us. You and your like should feel very grateful to Allah that I and those who feel like me had no say in this matter.

Moody and Mike, Moody and Mike, Moody and Mike,

Some historic reality:

Moody, Moody, Moody,

More historic reality for you to peruse:

Indeed we are "surrounded" by one billion Muslims in this easy-accessible modern world. With the koran as their guide, they have been shouting "death to the infidels" for the last 1400 years not just since 1948.

The problem now is that we can hear and smell the stench of their warmongering message.

The solution: Delete the flaws in the koran and "pink slip" all the "red-neck" imams. "Pink-slipping" all the "red neck" Christian preachers, "profits" and priests and "we are the chosen" rabbis is also part of the solution.

Hmmm, if you trace it all back to the origins of the three major religions claiming Abraham as founder/father, you find the "pretty wingie thinges" as the essence and essentials of it all.

This then is the experience of it all and results in one major conclusion:

"Abrahamic” religions are hallucination-based and it is now time to end the charade!!!!

What do you call you call someone who has sold her soul to AIPAC for some short term pleasure:
Irshad Manji, and
Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Both of these women can find a more hospitable clientele in Tel Aviv rather than Cairo or even New York. Their rants will be more appreciated in Tel Aviv as they are designed for those who wish to see the Islamic faith through black colored glasses.

In case you haven't heard of it before, Irshad Manji, the term is immigration. I encourage you and your comrade Ayaan Hirsi Ali to apply for immigration to Israel - the only country in the world where apartheid is now practiced, which should delight you and your sister who holds views identical to yours - Ayaan Airsi Ali, based on your writings

The self proclaimed WESTERN HONEST KIND through Zionist media as usual blowing OUT OF PROPORTION one tiny single event in Afghanistan hidden corner.

The country which is UNDER CONSTANT ATTACK FOR ALMOST QUATER OF A CENTURY by the SAME self proclaimed HONEST KIND. Where every inch of it is rubble, destroyed. And where mostly the mentality of the people is GET KILLED OR KILL after the so long OPPRESION OF WESTERN HONEST KIND. "IT IS MORE THAN 25 YEARS OF CONSTANT ATTACK"

Just LOOK at USA FREEDOM laws of TORTURE, DESTRUCTIVE CONSPIRACY & CHAOS THEORIES IN PRACTICE. And how many INOCENT CIVILIANS KILLED AND TORTURED BY US SOLDIERS UNDER US PROTECTED LAW. "Is any body accountable?" Where every day innocent Afgans are killed by US soldiers under US protected TORTURE LAW??

The whole media is filled with GREAT US torture cells snaps and movies!

In Afghanistan TALIBAN represents the majority people heart and minds which LIGITIMATE GOVERNMENT when ASKED FOR THE EVIDENCE AS PER INTERNATIONAL LAW was replied in the form of rain of bombardment. And Tony UK and Pervaze PAK were answered by US instead of Taliban that it is not a nation but PART OF TERORIST GROUP.

AND THAT IS THE KIND OF JUSTICE USA IS BRINGING ALL OVER THE WORLD.

WHERE THERE IS NO LAW FOR US MASTERS AND ZIONEST ARE ABOVE FROM ALL KIND OF FREEDOM OF SPEECH

In Islam,
Muslims DIFFRENCIATE between
- Free Speech (which is acceptable)
&
-Vulgar, obscene, insulting, abusive Slurs (which are not acceptable in Islam, UNLIKE WESTERN TRADITIONS WHERE EVERY THING GOES).

AND MR. "CCNL" IS ONE OF THE PREDOMINENT EXAMPLE OF IT!!!

Don't tell us SITTING AT DISTANCE, that we shouldn't be offended.
Go first abuse IN EVERY POSSIBLE WORD,
- the person present next to you, or
- your parents or
- your love ones.
And then tell us how do you FEEL?
(I guess VERY CONTENTED, HAPPY & GOOD according to your freedom of speech???)
&
And "THEN TELL US FIRST" how open heartedly your abused FALLAS accepted your EVERY POSSIBLE WAY verbal abuse?
Now "GO LOOK into the mirror".

Manji:
You say about Karzai that in order to commute the judgement against Sayed

{All he had to do was quote from the Qur’an, which flat-out states “there is no compulsion in religion” (2:256). Full stop and khalas}.
This verse was abrogated by a later verse (9:29) which incites the Muslims to fight the "unbeievers".He as well as his countrymen know that very well, and that is probably why he did not take that route.

Anonymous:
You say "Of course there is a word-Abed-which means slave as there is a word in English-SLAVE-which means slave!!! Do u get it now?"
The question should be addressed to you because you act dumb or maybe you are dumb. In English people call Negroes either "Negroes" or "Blacks". In Arabic, Arabs should call Negroes "Zonooge" meaning Negroes or "Soud" meaning Blacks. Instead they refer to them as "Abeed" which is the Arabic word for "slaves".

I am not really surprised to find out about article 3 of Afghanistan's Constitution. But I feel hopeless everytime I become aware of the vast gulf that exists between "Western" and Islamic cultures. I rarely, if ever become aware of the situation vis a vis human rights through the more traditional media, i.e. newspapers and t.v. so I am thankful to Irshad Manji and your publication for this needed information.

I have read Irshad Manji before. Everytime I read something she has written I am struck by the fact that the information she is offering is otherwise not available. I guess we shouldn't be too surprised that in Afghanistan people are afraid of making changes toward human rights when we with freedom are afraid of publishing, commenting on, viewing or otherwise discussing the situation here. I am in Canada and would have a difficult if not impossible time getting this kind of information by traditional means,i.e. newspapers, t.v. news or information programming. It will take a great deal for Islamic culture to advance toward in "Enlightment" and finally achieve success. They don't have to reinvent the wheel though.

Robert! You generalize too much! I'm a son of the South, probably a son of Confederates, but certainly a son of the American Revolution. We're not all ignorant rubes, we don't all watch Fox News, and some of us don't hold a Bible to put down. And from the tone of your invective, I'd guess that slim education can be found even outside of the South. Well, wees learns somethin' ever day!

I agree with Chris that you probably misread GeorgiaSon, although it would have been nice if GeorgiaSon had followed the links and done the little bit of research that Chris did. GeorgiaSon seems to be (over)reacting to what we hear a lot of in the South, that the United States was founded as a Christian nation. Usually it's not the Bible thumpers who go off the handle on that. Rather, they tend to believe it.

So we observed two people flying off the handle and not expressing themselves particularly well. One was blinded by hatred of a common falsehood, and the other was blinded by hatred of Southerners.

Asim Ma of San Antonio writes: "how much does AIPAC pay you?"
Not one penny. They do not even know me. Why the hate? Your Allah and your Quran teaches nothing but hate, that's why?

Asmi Ma writes: "brought millions of blacks by chains to America"
Why do you have to be so ignorant? You condemn yourself to being perpetually stupid? I gave you link, read it. Show where did you get "Millions of blacks brought to America in chains"? I have given you reference that show that Islam killed about 20 million African blacks from the time of Muhammad, and enslaved about 15 million blacks. Now show where is your data showing millions brought to America in chains.

Why is it that when ever anyone asks the muslims about Muhammad and the actions of muslims that they will start pointing fingers instead of answering. Let us accept that the Americans are awful and the christians terrible and they are very very evil ... does that in any way excuse the horrific evil done by islam against the blacks of Africa? Islam did that because your Quran and your Muhammad allows slavery of Kafirs and the muslims demanded slaves as jiziya from the kafirs. That is evil of the ideology of Islam.

You really are very ignorant, are you not? Islam spreading in Africa? That is where it is losing the fastest. Read what a muslim who should know is saying on Al-jazeera:
*******************************
http://www.formermuslims.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=972
Our topic this evening will be Christianization in the Dark Continent ... Africa. For after Islam was the religion of the majority, the great majority of that continent, the number of Muslims now is no greater than a third of the population. This is taking into consideration, of course, that a large portion of this group are Arab Muslims. No doubt that the missions of evangelization and Christianization played a great role in this demographic shift of Muslims in the continent.

To discuss this topic, it is my pleasure to introduce today a man who is an expert on the issue of evangelization and Christianization in Africa, even though he will concentrate on the issue of Christianization first and foremost?. Sheikh Ahmad Al Katani; the president of The Companions Lighthouse for the Science of Islamic Law in Libya, which is an institution specializing in graduating imams and Islamic preachers.
**********************************************

Asim Ma writes: "The barking doings will do themselves a great favour if they are objectively honest and modestly informed or otherwise shut up and save their and our time.Dialogue needs to be factual and honset."

Lol! You must be an arab!! Arabs certainly have a distinctive way of hold a dialog!! Barking dogs? factual and honest? You do not know enough to be factual. You show yourself to be miserably ignorant. Honesty is not something that Islam teaches you to have when talking to kafirs. Lying is acceptable, in Islam, but fortunately the internet makes it trivial to expose them now with too much effort.

How come you have not shown: where Allah or Muhammad ever told muslims to feel "Total brotherhood to all humanity". You claimed that but you hate the jews, and you hate the kafirs, and so what is this total brotherhood of all humanity?

But wait, Afghanistan is our ally. It's President is another Cheney marionette. Does this mean Cheney condones suppressing free speech? Could it happen at home with four more years of neocons like McCain, Huckabee or Romney eroding our Constitution?

Observer,
U are not very observing-are u? Of course there is a word-Abed-which means slave as there is a word in English-SLAVE-which means slave!!! Do u get it now?? But it is not the existence of a word in a language that is a problem-rather it's the practice:Tell me how did millions of African slaves arive to North America and Europe? U will aggree not frist class on a B-747!!!

This may be a stretch, but I don't think America would have instituted democracy had it not been for its experience with the British parlimentary system, which gave a moral basis to such things as "taxation without representation is tyrrany."

So, thinking along the same lines, if American democracy depended on an itial period of parlimentary administration plus a monarch, who also happened to be the head of the religion, isn't the closest muslim analogue actually IRAN? Is it possible that Iran will be the spearhead of "muslim democracy?" It doesn't seem too farfetched to me.

Cncrnd,it's your empty mind that needs to be de-contaminated and disifnected.

Kafir and the like of u..
how much does AIPAC pay you? Do you know who committed the holocaust,the inquisition and how brought millions of blacks by chains to America? And who commited the greatest terrorism in history:nuking hundreds of thosuands of innocent Japenese civilians? Who conducted forced conversions to xtianity of a whole continent of South America?

Abed Allah:means the servant of Allah-the name of the father of the Holy Prophet/pbuh. No where is Islam spreading faster than in Africa,why? because Islam is color blind where as xtianity is seen as the faith of the racist colonial Europeans who invented Slave Trdae and transported millions of African Muslims in chains to America and excerised forced conversions of those African Muslims into xtianity.

People of all colors worship in the same Mosque-but even to this day blacks and whites have sperate churchs-remember:No dogs and colored are allowed,remember the civil rights movement?Why the American Civil war 1861/5 with 620,000 dead? To end slavery.(see the new book on the subject by the president of Harvard University.

The barking doings will do themselves a great favour if they are objectively honest and modestly informed or otherwise shut up and save their and our time.Dialogue needs to be factual and honset.

Robert,

I think you are misreading GeorgiaSon. GeorgiaSon is absolutely correct when he calls the statement, "America itself was founded as a theocracy" a lie.

I followed the link provided by Ms. Manji and it referred to some colonial Puritian history. What she should have said is that the American colonies had their share of theocratic nut cases. The difference is that the American Founders had the good sense to PROHIBIT theocratic rule from our constitution, whereas Afganistan seems to have INSTITUTED theocratic rule. Big difference.

Pleased to meet you, hope you guessed my name.

When I read a post from someone like the one from GeorgiaSon, then I see how uneducated and DUMB some of us are here in the U.S.

Perhaps his name says it all. Don't you find that the last true vestige of ignorance in the U.S. is in the South? And by that I'm talking primarily about the Sons of the Confederates.

GeorgiaSon, you and your kin should put down the Bible, turn off the Fox News Channel, lay off the Jack Daniels and read something about our own history here.

I'm just appalled and ashamed of such fellow Countrymen.

Manji - This is a beautifully written commentary. Amnesty International recently released a report that shows the U.S. supports authoritarian governments all over the world to merely safeguard its political and economic interests. I found nothing new in this report. The U.S. has for years gravitated to only governments -dictatorial or not - that readily dance to its tunes. I understand GWB's support for Karzai. Better the devil you know than the angel you don't know. Were Karzai to die today, who would the U.S. work with in Afghanistan?

Ms. Mangi:
Convincing Muslim men to adopt secular constitutions and separate the Mosque and State is a waste of time and effort. Muslim men have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo whereby they can lorded over women and minorities. The only way to quick change is for a strong military leader, like the Turkish Mustafa Kemal Attaturk, to impose by the whip such a change.

Asim:
You say "Muslim Arabs are unequivocally NOT racist". Suffice it to say that the common term in Arabic to designate a black person is "abd" which is "slave" in Arabic. How do you characterize the wars being waged today by the Arabs of North Sudan against the negroid people of Darfur and the the negroid races of Southern Sudan?

Who is Mr.Irshad Manji to impose his ideas on the Afghans?And what made you think there is actually such a thing as a consitution in Afghanistan these days?

Why don't you start about writing on laws on writing "against" the holocaus in the "civilized" world?

I am dumstruck by Ms. Manji's statement that "America itself was founded as a theocracy whose clerics could be punitively dogmatic. The country needed several generations to figure out a workable separation of church and state."

That, of course, is an absolute lie. Not an opinion, not a viewpoint with some facts to back it up, but an outright lie. How someone with Ms. Kanji's reported credentials could write something so contrary to history and the known facts is truly disturbing. It casts doubt on any other "facts" she might cite. It's the equivalent of writing, "World War II was started by Poland invading Germany."

I would hope Ms. Kanji would herself write a correction and not leave it up to her readers to do it for her. Provocative opinions are one thing. Provocation based on the deliberate posting of outright lies is quite another.

Dear Irshad

Sam says, you're confused. But, to me, you are one of the most un-confused people that I know of.

As for President Bush, he is the one who is confused. That does not mean I hate him. Before being President, he had little life experience; that is our bad luck as Americans to have chosen such a President.

He talks alot about freedom and liberty, and probably believes all that he says, but I do not think he has given these ideas much consideration. I do not think someone like him would have been familiar with sharia law, or have known much about Islam, or understood that there are differences between societies. He is learning on the job.

Thanks but no thanks for an article filled with misleading half-truths which are far more dangerous than outright lies.

The problem lies when people take yours, or Wafa Sultan's, or Ayaan Hirsi Ali's, or Ann Coulter's outlandish half-truths as facts when: a)either the clientele is dumb enough to swallow the snake oil thinking it is real medicine, or b) when the clientele is dumb enough not to perform basic checks on many of the outlandish allegations and hypes.

To summarize, which dog is there in this world that does not like to hear that cats are a terrible lot, especially when it comes from the mouth of a cat? And when the cat is paid to say these things to make the dog feel better, then she won't care how far she exaggerates.

Some cats such as Irshad Manji, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Wafa Sultan, or Ann Coulter can become more dangerous with time, so feed these cats at your own peril, they could could bite you later

Asim Ma writes:
"clearly a factual error and it offends my deepest sensibilities:like all Muslim Arabs, I feel total brotherhood with all human beings who happen to be black including NOI and yourself."

Can you please quote where in Islam are muslims told that they should feel "TOTAL brotherhood with all human beings"? I really would like to know where you get this Islamic teaching.

AS far as denigrating of blacks by the arabs goes, that is deeply imbedded and Islam has wrecked more devastation on Africa and the blacks that it is literally beyond comprehension by most. Please read about the black Holocaust at
http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Classroom/9912/easterntrade.html

*************************
These new attitudes towards Blacks by Arabs marked the beginning of African enslavement. Though not based solely on race, the Arab Slave Trade did focus heavily upon Africans whom Arabs now saw as inferior to themselves. At first these Arabs raided African villages themselves seeking humans for sale. This not being always successful, they soon enlisted the aid of fellow African Muslims or recently converted Blacks. Wrapping themselves within Islam, these converts rationalized the slavery of their non Muslim brethren as the selling of "unbelievers." At other times the Arabs would demand tribute in the form of human bodies from Africans weary of the fight against Arabic-Islamic incursions.

.....
Due to the enormous length of the Arab Slave Trade, from 700 to 1911AD, it is impossible to be certain of the numbers of Africans sold in this system. Estimates place the numbers somewhere around 14 million: at least 9.6 million African women and 4.4 African men.

It has been estimated that in all, at least 14 to 20 MILLION African men, women and children died throughout this trade. (Photos and Information courtesy of The Black Holocaust for Beginners by SE Anderson, A Pictorial History of the Slave Trade, Slave Trade of Eastern Africa by Beachy, Slavery in the Arab World by Gordon Murray and Africa in History by Basil Davidson)

********************************

Please do show where Allah or Muhammad ever told muslims to feel "Total brotherhood to all humanity". I really really do want to see that, for I have looked and searched high and low for many a years and never found a statement in Islam that comes even remotely close to such a blanket statement as yours. You are a thousand times better human for saying that than either your Allah or Muhammad because all they ever seem to say is hate the kafir, hate the kafir.

Hmmm, about time for an update on our War on Terror and Aggression: (WW2 to Present)

Our War on Terror and Aggression:

An update ( or how are we or have we spent USA taxpayers’ money to eliminate global terror and aggression)

A Recent and Partial Body Count:

1a) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto

1b) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

2) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud
currently being carried out in Iraq, 4000 US troops and 80,625 – 88,048 Iraqi civilians http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

3) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

4) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

5) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

6) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

7) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

Other elements of our War on Terror:

1. Saddam, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted. Saddam's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes.

2. Iran is being been contained. (beside containing the Sunni-Shiite civil war in Baghdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region.)

3. Libya has become almost civil. Apparently this new reality from an Islamic country has upset OBL and his “crazies” as they recently threatened Libya. OBL sure is a disgrace to the world especially the Moslem world!!! (or is he??)

4. North Korea is still uncivil but is contained. With the opening up of rail traffic between North and South Korea after 50 years and with the assistance of the US Navy in retrieving NK ships and personnel, a fresh sense of civility is afoot.

5. Northern Ireland is finally at peace.

6. The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls. Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords and the Annapolis Peace Conference is at least somewhat successful.

7. Bin Laden has been cornered under a rock in Western Pakistan since 9/11. His #2 "crazy" was deleted yesterday under his rock.

8. Fanatical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace. Ditto for a wall between Afghahistan and Pakistan.

9.Timothy McVeigh was executed. Terry Nichols will follow soon.

10. Eric Rudolph is spending three life terms in prison with no parole.

11. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Kaczynski, the "nuns" from Rwanda, and the KKK were all dealt with and either eliminated themselves or are being punished.

12. Islamic Sudan, Darfur and Somalia are still terror hot spots.

13. The terror and torture of Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo and Kuwait were ended by the proper application of the military forces of the USA and her freedom-loving friends.

14. And of course the bloody terror brought about the Japanese, Nazis and Communists was with great difficulty and sacrifice eliminated by the good guys (60+million global citizens died in gruesome, terror-filled deaths.)

Ms. Manji,
I appreciate your basic point; Pres Karzai has a choice in how he accepts the compromise constitution that exists and the rulings of his country's court system and appears to be choosing the path that will yield the more muted response in Afghanistan.

A couple thoughts:

- though no fan of Pres Bush, I believe you mischaracterize his position. I expect he would vastly prefer Pres Karzai reject such application of Sharia law. I am sure he has discussed this with Pres Karzai.
- And of greater import, I know that his administration has worked mightily to help Pres Karzai's administration reform the courts and judicial system, to include their supreme court.
- Pres Karzai expended and expends considerable political capital (which in AFG also entails accepting physical risk) in influencing the composition and ideals of AFG's highest court.
- The "apostate" of 2006 is alive and well today , just as Pres Karzai hoped during that crisis. Perhaps his method doesn't meet your approval, but you could recognize that, for that christian convert, the result is to your liking. And it came without the violence that you describe as a certainty.

Thanks for listening,
Matt

Irshad,

The only thing I got out of your article is
YOU are Confused.

all religious texts are garbage written by idealistic people having so much free time to think about life after dead. oh please be realistic and do something contructive like help feed the poor children.

LOL at the people who hate Bush so much that they can see praise for Bush in any comment that they don't agree with!

Bush is a disaster for the country and for the Republicans. He's one of the greatest con artists of the past 100 years.

That does not make what the author wrote any less worthless. Yes, Afghanistan has a long way to go to get to real freedom. However, to not see progress over the past 5 years and to put blame on people outside the country as opposed to questioning where the real leaders of Afghanistan are is just piling on for the sake of piling on and whining.

As for many of you people posting here:

1) You have zero patience because you've been sucked into this society of instant gratification. You can't change cultures overnight. But you'll go back to your history book and see a date by a historical event and think everything happened in the snap of a finger, paying no attention to the years that led up to the event and the years that followed the event in order to get us to modern times.
2) There is nothing the US could do that wouldn't offend you in some way. If we do nothing, then you'll decry the US for not paying attention to the plight of women and children over there. If we try to rid them of the Taliban, you whine that some innocents were killed in the war and that we only got rid of 99% of the Taliban. Then you'll moan that the current President over there isn't doing enough. Then if we decide to push for change over there because the current President isn't doing enough, you'll whine that we shouldn't interfere with a sovereign country's affairs. Bunch of whiny brats that will never be satisfied.

The Afghan constitution says “no law can be contrary to the beliefs and provisions of the sacred religion of Islam.” That’s freedom? For whom? Ali in Wonderland? The Iraqi constitution, for which we are fighting, has the same language.

Irshad,

Take heart. Now you know who are behind an administration gone haywire, screwing up everywhere in the name of freedom and democracy.

At least in Afghanistain, it's not much worse than before the liberators came in. In Iraq, the Christians could at least live with no fear under the brutal dictator Saddam. But now after the liberation engineered by Bush and his fumbling warmongers, with the full cheering of those "compassionate" conservatives who posted nasty comments here, the Christians there don't have a foothold any longer with no prospect for change for the better anytime soon.

WJS

I know what you mean; it's a cunundrum; what can we do? sometimes, nothing.

We can't plan societies to come out the way we want them to. They are organic, complex, living things which are impossible to tame, and must work their own way.

The Russians must be getting quite a laugh from our two wars. There is no way that we can export out culture to these "crazy" countries. Might as well pile up all the money and make a fire.

It's been barely 5 years since the Taliban was defeated. In 1781 Charles Lynch was murdering British sympathizers and the U.S. was still 6 years from writing their first serious constitution. The cherished "Freedom of Religion" would be even further away - waiting to be ratified as an amendment to the Constitution. In fact, ecclesiastic inpact on US law even shows up as late as the 1920s with a constitutional amendment banning liquor.

A dollop of patience is required here. Nations aren't rebuilt overnight.

Thank you for the article, Ms. Manji. I admire your courage, and will pray for you. I wish I could ask you to ignore the hate-mongers and continue writing, but this is a crazy world and what you do is dangerous.

Mr. Karzai is a politician in a democracy, which means he must try to win elections. Because does not belong to the rare breed of politicians (Kennedy, McCain, etc.) who can get elected DESPITE telling people what they don't want to hear, he will follow the people - not lead them.

To all conservatives denouncing Ms. Manji. Please read the article. The author is NOT saying that the Taliban was better. She IS saying that the current Afghan government doesn't dare to be much better.

"The Sins of Islam"

The sins of the koran and Islam go with you no matter where you go.

As a reminder:

Islam is not perfect and the koran inherently condones sin as shown 24/7 in the 800 year-old blood feud between Sunnis and Shiites. Their actions give significant credence that greed, suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran. Having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of lust and polygamy. The condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of anger and greed.

Sonsyrea,
U say:"What I find most fascinating in your book is the clear evidence of how racist Arab Muslims are. These are the folks we sought to emulate!."

NOI abused the name of Islam and NOI was a racist movement which is against the very creed of color blind Islam;so u were right to leave NOI-but it was unfortunate that u did not embrace Orthodox Islam as did Malcom X-after he made the pilgimage to Mecca. NOI's reaction to racism was more racism-hardly an Islamic reaction.

Your comment:" how racist Arab Muslims are..." is clearly a factual error and it offends my deepest sensibilities:like all Muslim Arabs, I feel total brotherhood with all human beings who happen to be black including NOI and yourself.Muslim Arabs are unequivocally NOT racist and the Prophet who loved Bilal was by no stretch of the imagination a racist-he was "sent as a mercy to all mankind." Abu Dher Al Ghafrai , a great companion of the Prophet and an asteic, once made a racist remark to Bilal and Bilal complained to the Prophet who was not very pleased at all with that comment and demanded that Abu Dher apologises to Bilal-which he with great regret he did and even kissed the face of Bilal which bowed in submission to Allah five times in prayer every day.

Also if u have not yet,I strongly recommend that u read Pamela Taylor's piece on the issue of freedom of expression.

Salam and good luck.

Irshad,

Why do you mislead the kafirs with your "no compulsion in religion" lies?

No compulsion in religion has never ever meant in Islam that muslims can renounce Islam. It has always meant that it is the Kafirs who cannot compel their children and other kafirs from "reverting" to Islam. Muslims cannot renounce islam. Death for apostasy and blasphemy has always been part of Islam. Kill anyone who insults Muhammad is the norm in Islam.

Asim ma writes: "Is there any freedom of speech in the Muslim World now? Hradly. The Muslim world is popoulated by over 1.6 billion Muslims but it is NOT ruled by Islam at all."

Care to tell the Kafir when you think Islam ruled the muslims? Muhammad did not allow freedom of speech. He had and old poet and couple of women assasinated because they said things he did not like. Assassinating an old man, and an old woman for what they say is sign of free speech?

Please tell the Kafir exactly where and when Islam ruled the Muslims so they can examine what benefits and advantages the non-muslims get under Islam.

this super-smart lady tells it like it is. I hadnt heard of Manji before reading this, but I just ordered her 'Trouble with islam' book off Amazon. We Muslims MUST acknowledge the multiple views/voices in our community--and the American majority has to learn that we aren't all jihadists bent on holy war.

Irshad,
U say:"Article 3 of Afghanistan’s constitution states that “no law can be contrary to the beliefs and provisions of the sacred religion of Islam, And where is the freedom"??

There is absloutely nothing wrong with this article:because Islam is a faith of freedom-it's vulgar and strange interpretation of that article;The Prophet said:"The greatest Jihad in the sight of Allah is a word of truth in the face of an unjust ruler-despot." Is that not freedom of speech?

Early Jihad in Islam-the military activity-was conducted in order to afford the people of the world the freedom to choose the faith of their convictions(as per 2:256 and other verses in the Quran)and to speak freely-after all to choose a faith freely is the highest level of freedom of speech.

This incident in Afghanistan has nothing to do with Islam-another preversion of the faith.Kharazi is no more than a stooge protected by the invaders who have nothing to do with Democracy as with the case in Iraq.

Is there any freedom of speech in the Muslim World now? Hradly. The Muslim world is popoulated by over 1.6 billion Muslims but it is NOT ruled by Islam at all.

Pls see Pamela Taylor's eloquent and coherent piece on the subject which is more representative of Islam.

"The man who reads nothing at all is better than educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers"

- Thomas Jefferson

Thanks for using your worthless piece to take cheap shots at our President, Irshad Manji. I am sure all of our young men and women who have fought (and are still fighting) to help your citizens would appreciate your show of thanks (NOT!).

For the record, Thomas Jefferson was actually the first American President to realize that wiping out muslim nut-jobs in the Middle East was the only way to earn their respect and submission. You might want to do some research on the Barbary Wars before you point to Thomas Jefferson as the example of what you would like Karzai to be.

Regarding the Taliban, why don't you write an article about all of those young male talibs that have been systematically sodomized over the years by their older brothers, fathers, uncles, etc. in the name of Allah? It is indisputable fact that this has occurred because of the shortage of women.

We are all food for worms.
Let us start there, we all have to agree on one thing first.

Brilliant article.

People forget that Karzai is a Halliburton lackey, in addition to being spineless and craven.

Jefferson is the sort of American you'll not see again: worldly, multi-lingual, SMART. JKF did say once at an early fete that it was the most impressive gathering of intellectuals since Jefferson dined alone.

I confess not having known about that curious provision in the Afghan "constitution." Basically, what's the point of all the other laws? Truly an Bushian fantasy: no law but God's.

Is it any wonder that atheists like myself are becoming more outwardly vocal each day?

In the communal courts, such as in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan, it does not appear that Sharia per se is the problem, but simply the qualifications of the judges. The trials violate the most basic rules of a judiciary that certainly the Koran must also advocate. Therefore, these judges are not Moslem or following Sharia, but their own tribal power trip. Note that the underlying infraction always involves some form of individual liberty, which these mullahs find deeply troubling and threatening to their power.

This remains a prime example of why many of us are for the separation of chuch and state in America and not establishing the "one true religion" which by it's definition makes all those outside of that second class citizens.

The degree to which Muslims are willing to slay those who don't ascribe to Islam says nothing of democracy, it says everything about freedom and people's willingness to fight for it. In our own soceity, those who would have a theocracy and the rule of law run through the bible and the bible only are of the same ilk as those in Afghanistan who decide to cut people's heads off.

No, it isn't as bloody or violent, but the underlying principle is often the same. You don't blieve in my god? You can't be a full member of my country.

Good op-ed! Can't agree with you more.

What does deflawed mean? It's not even in the dictionary. Please check your vocabulary before you start hurling insults.

A Constitution is just a piece of paper. There are lots of Constitutions around the world, modelled on the US example, that are just lifeless pieces of paper which are not recognized by the rulers nor do they operate according to what is written on them.

A Constitution must be well-suited for the society over which it operates. Ours operates well because many people and most of the centers of power recognize it, and see that is in their best interests to support it.

During the French Revolution, a beautiful Republican Constitution was proclaimed to the world, but it did not last even one year.

Islam is in a terrible fix; it is contorted and disconnected from history and from the present. There is always blame, blame, blame of others for the disfunctions of Islamic societies. But, somehow, it must all unravel, and come undone, before true reform and a better way can be acccomplished. There is always hope in the future.

Manji, I love you (but do not worry, I am not a stalker).

This situation only reinforces the following call:

"NO ONE IS SAFE UNTIL THE KORAN IS "DEFLAWED"!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tom wrote - "You should go help the Taliban get back into power so that they can liberate you."

Isn't that what Bush said he'd already DONE?

Can't we hold someone accountable for his own statements and actions (or lack thereof)?

Or are you one of the 30% that is simply incapable of accepting that Bush is incompetent?

I applaud this column. For too long, the voices of moderate Muslims have not been heard, and now that they are, the moronic conservatives chastise you for recognizing you've not received the 'Freedom' Bush promised and failed to deliver. Not to mention a land actually FREE from the Taliban.

Unfortunately, the efforts will lie upon your own shoulders, to carry forward the recognition and understanding that Sharaic Law is neither just nor appropriate. Progress is being made, it IS better than it was (for that we do have to give Bush credit, but not much), but there is still VERY far to go. You've not an easy road ahead.

We're busy surviving our own American Taliban, 1-20-09 cannot come soon enough!

Tom, are you mad at Irshad because she said that Bush is no Jefferson?

Why do you take exception with that? Isn't it true that in the big of things, Jefferson was a true Renaissance Man, whereas Bush is a great humiliation to this great country?

And this is coming from a registered republican who voted for this sorry administration in 2000. I say this because I am an American first. And as an American, I'd have been happy even if he was just Aaron Burr or Calvin Coolidge.

Swearing over bibles and korans? How about swearing fidelity to truth and justice with one hand on the U.S. Constitution and the other on the Bill of Rights?

With both hands occupied, one can stay out of the proverbial American pocket.

Everytime I hear a quote from Thomas Jefferson and other founding fathers, I am just amazed at the vision and greatness of these individuals. That is what makes this country so great.

Karzai is nothing more than a puppet. He has acknowledged as such recently in Davos.

The problem with our leaders today is that they do not lead with knowledge, therefore we are fighting the very enemies that were created and supported by us as allies against other foes.

Today, a presidential candidate is considered weak and unworthy of election if he/she has changed their opinion on any topic over the last 20 years. That should tell you how bad it has gotten. The people in this country would rather vote for someone who is steadfastly wrong but is idealistic than someone who has evolved with the times and learned from past and current events.

Straight talk from a guy who loves this country but is ashamed of so many of my countrymen.

Poor Irshad! I understand how upset you must be that Bush wasn't able to take 1000s of years of backward beliefs and turn them around in a few years. You should go help the Taliban get back into power so that they can liberate you.

Great Coloumn. Brilliant and can you please influence your freinds at the Washington post to stop the Eboo Patel's contribution.

"As a student of history, I’m only too aware that reform takes time. America itself was founded as a theocracy whose clerics could be punitively dogmatic. The country needed several generations to figure out a workable separation of church and state."

You are a POOR student of history then. The first permanent English settlement in the New World was at Jamestown, Virginia (founded in 1607, sixteen years before Plymouth), and it was hardly a theocracy. The elected Virginia House of Burgesses was established in 1620 three years before the Pilgrim's landing, and was a completely seperate entity from the Church of England - hence NOT a Theocracy.

Please get your facts somewhere close to correct if you plan on styling yourself an historian any time in the future.

Great op-ed! Good for you Irshad. I forwarded this to my wife, whos family is Buddhist, and told her that the quote from Jefferson sounded quite Buddhist! I'm a Christian, and also believe in using reason and logic to question even ones own cherished beliefs. I've found myself in an uncomfortable spot as I've reviewed some of my own Christian beliefs and doctrine ive come across. I can relate to what Irshad is doing, and i think all people of all faiths should listen to Jeffersons words and take them to heart.

it's this utterly medievil interpretation of Islam that shocks the western world. It's this sort of backward thinking in the Christian world that has US Secularists alarmed. With mono theism there can be only 1 "truth" and there is no room for compromise. Worse yet, when you truly believe you are doing gods will and that great rewards await you after death, then you have no compunctions ending life (yours or others).

I am secular, but I lead a very honorable life and don't need the teachings of Jesus or Mohammad to guide me. It is possible to think on your own

I believe that you are right. I have not visited Afghanistan and I don’t think that you have either. However, a Constitution which includes a fundamental article that no law can contradict the fundamental principles of Islam implies a theocratic muddle, which is not exactly the same thing as Sharia law. Sharia law represents one interpretation of Islam, but Islam has many sects and branches. Who gets to decide what Islamic teaching should apply to a given law? Any state that uses religious dogma (Christian, Buddhist, Jewish, Hindu, Islamic or what have you) as a supreme test will fail in the long term. Clearly Mr. Bush is a flawed Potemkin ruler, Mr. Karzai a more personable but equally flawed leader.

We Americans should not be quick to criticize, however. We must abandon the childish idea that we can meddle in the affairs of other countries to set things right. The unfortunate fact is that our Presidents have too much power; all who have held the office since 1980 have been personally corrupted by this power. Jimmy Carter was and is an honest man. He has not prostituted himself to make money since he left the Presidency. Carter is not above criticism. He was not a very effective President; he allowed himself to be pushed into actions which triggered the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan by the cold war fanatic Zbig Brezinski. Brezinski’s memos show that he foresaw the Soviets being drawn into Afghanistan and consumed there by the policy which he and Carter initiated in 1977, arming the anti-communist mujahadeen.

Unfortunately, George W Bush and his neocon cronies did not read the lessons of history, (our forces in Iraq and Afghanistan are being consumed in the same way that the Soviet forces were). Many in power in Washington want to attack new countries especially Iran and/or Pakistan. If we do that, our country will break apart just as the Soviet Union did and for similar reasons.

Now about prostituting yourself to make money while an ex-President, i.e. giving speeches, making contacts, smoothing deals, etc. Ronald Reagan did this. George H.W. Bush did this with oil potentates of Saudi Arabia and the emirates and Bill Clinton has also done it (Google Bill Clinton and Kazakhstan or Clinton & Giustra). Our early presidents had no such opportunities and did no such thing. Maybe we should look into the mirror. In the meantime, speak the truth as you see it, but avoid the temptation to set Afghanistan or any other country right. Power corrupts and the power to intervene in other countries is especially corrupting.

ANON - To add to your comment on the US hypocricy.

1. Which country spread the WMDs to N. Korea, Libya
Ans - Pakistan and Pakistani military (In the planes provided by the US and operated by Pak army)
US response - Blame one individual scientist and put him in house arrest. Then invade Iraq because they might have MMDs.

2. Where is Bin Laden and the remaining core Al-Queda (responsible for 9/11) currently hiding.
Ans- Pakistan-Afghanistan border areas.
US response - Make Iraq as the center stage for war on terror and breed more terrorists.

The height of hypocrisy is US militarily invades Iraq, killing hundreds of thousands to bring democracy and freedom. And at the same times giving away un-accounted billions to a rogue military ruler, who ousted an elected government, makes a mockery of independent judiciary, media and ravages most of the institutions of a nation; General Musharraf of Pak.

Hypocrisy or just pure TIMIDITY.

BANGALEE BABU,
Please do say more. You say Irshad is ungrateful. For what? For being allowed speak her mind? She cannot point out that Karzai is being a politician and not a Jefferson? I am waiting for a Muslim leader who will tell mullahs exactly where to go and abolish the burqa.
Why do you hate freedom so much?

One of the most brilliant articles I have seen, in years, for personal image enhancement we, sometimes, need for the market around us.

I am secular, I love an afternoon Rioja and my evening single malt, on the balcony by the Mediterranean. I may not even hold much sympathy for Islam or any other religion at all.

But, thank goodness, I do hold justice and democracy dear. Just one plain simple question; Is democracy about peoples' choice of what they want for THEMSELVES, their country or whatever?

OR, is it about what our Irshad Manjis come to hold is good for people in lands she has never lived in???? or perhaps even known.

Dear Irshad Manji,

You point of view that first three sucessors of Holy Prophet (Peace be Upon Him) is factually incorrect, it was only one successor Osman RA who was killed by Muslim miscerants and other two second and fourth were killed by non-Muslims... hatred should not blind us to facts!

A reminder to people on this blog that it was American foreign policy in Afghanistan that created the Taliban in the first place.

I think there may be a misunderstanding of the word "democracy" here...democracy is rule by the people - it doesn't mean that laws will automatically become fair in the eyes of the world. If the people voted to have all their laws conform to Islam, then that is true democracy. Forcing another culture to conform to say western standards...well that would be imperialism.

All this fanatic theological politics (including here in the U.S.) is the problem. Wake up people - religion has never been and never will be the answer to anything...all it does is further divide the human race.

This is not a political problem - its a religion problem.

Sometimes I wonder if those leave comments have even bothered to read what was written?

I don't think that any point she said that it was wrong to have gone after Al Aqaeda or to have gotten rid of the Taliban. She does in fact point out that there is some due process which was lacking under the Taliban.

The only point she was trying to make is GWB was living in a fantasy world by describing Alghanistan as a Democracy (certainly as we understand it) and that Karzai hadn't stood up to the theocrats.

When I last saw you on PBS, you and your Mom were not allowed to pray in a Mosque alongside men. And it was not in Pakistan or Arabia but in Canada.

See how Muslims blow up innocent lives each day (65 today in Baghdad market). It is a shame to call it a religion.

Don't you think if Mohamed was a compassionate and tolerant man, Saudi Arabia today would be the most diverse and tolerant nation on earth?

The problem can perhaps be traced to the confused and hypocritical motives of the US.

Consider: Our government (Bush) denounced burkas and sexism under the Taliban but is extremely friendly w/ Saudi Arabia, which has a dictatorial monarchy, Shariah Law, repression and massive sexism. Why the difference?

It would seem that the Bush reaction to tryanny is not based on the nature of the tyranny but rather on selfish views of American interests.(Saudi Arabia provides the US w/ oil and military bases.)

Also the US gov. is moving further from liberty by gutting the Constitution and international law on human rights and the limits on executive power.
(Guantanamo, extraordinary rendition, torture, signing statements etc.) These worrying abuses carry many of the hallmarks of tyranny.

Similarly, after the WMD and Saddam-Al Queda connections proved to be false rationales for the Iraq War, Bush said the war was needed to remove a murderous dictator. This is a good aim, but was our military action helpful to the Iraqis overall?
More to my point, if we invade to end genocide and murder, why has our government done little to nothing to stop genocide in Darfur? Why did our government allow Saddam Hussein to commit mass murder, esp. against Shiites and Kurds who had received some US support, after the 1st Gulf War?

To cite the argument of Aasif Mandvi, Daley Show contributor, the US gov. claims to support democracy and criticizes India for doing little to combat Burma's junta due to fear of a refugee crisis. However, in many, many cases when it suits the so called national interests of the US, our government supports dictatorships and anti-democracy entities such as those in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan (Musharraf), and apparently 'post liberation' Afghanistan. Add these countries to the list of Vietnam (Diem), Guatemala(United Fruit, look it up), Nicaragua(the Contras), etc.

I am a proud American but it shames me to know that the claims my government makes when it espouses democracy and liberty are extremely suspect.

Let me get this straight. We shouldn't invade, even if we are attacked, unless we are willing to subjugate the indigenous masses to our own preferences of human rights rather than have them decide for themselves? Is that about it?

More asinine comments from the CON woman that represents AIPAC rather that Muslims.....One that runs from a debate rather than rise up to the challenge....

More asinine comments from the CON woman that represents AIPAC rather that Muslims.....One that runs from a debate rather than rise up to the challenge....

What an insightful, perspicuous post, Ms. Manji.

Jefferson also wrote to George III, in Summary of Rights in British America, that "force cannot make right."

And, as you point out, US force has made wrong in Afghanistan

(and I'll add Iraq, Vietnam, Indonesia, Phillipines,..Guantanomo).

This is a good article and how naive or apparaently naive the so called great politicians are? These chaps who force democracy by millitary means should be asked to live in such places under their so called democratic establishments for a year and experience for themselves the democracy they have introduced by force of arms killing incidentally thousands of people--sometimes more in number than the dictators who were there! What an irony! Only God will bring them also to account if people are so powerless and frioghtened!

This article should atleast make people think of how to rectify the situation in countries that follow wxtremism of any kind.

Thanks for the article.

Charles

This is a good article and how naive or apparaently naive the so called great politicians are? These chaps who force democracy by millitary means should be asked to live in such places under their so called democratic establishments for a year and experience for themselves the democracy they have introduced by force of arms killing incidentally thousands of people--sometimes more in number than the dictators who were there! What an irony! Only God will bring them also to account if people are so powerless and frioghtened!

This article should atleast make people think of how to rectify the situation in countries that follow wxtremism of any kind.

Thanks for the article.

Charles

I don't think she was making the point that the Taliban was better than Afghanistan now. I believe her point is that it is not truly liberated. Karzai needs to be courageous and stand up to this madness if basic freedoms of expression are to be allowed to flourish. W is no Jefferson and no one faults him for that, because who is a Jefferson? However, what W has failed to recognize in his middle east exploits is that they have been killing each other for 1400 years now. They killed the successors of the prophet. Why would we be so arrogant, naive, incompetent to think that we could fix their problem? And at what cost? Islam must fix Islam. The solution is not with the US or anyone else.

A reminder to people on this blog that it was American foreign policy in Afghanistan that helped reign in the Taliban regime.

Yes, I suppose having the Taliban would be better after all, and of course, it's all Bush's fault.
Idiot.

Irshad, thanks once again for insightful comments. Unfortunately, much of what Thomas Jefferson said falls onto deaf ears within the Bush administration. GWB, in my mind, stands as the anti-Jeffersonian president of our time. It is precisely because his administration does not believe in the freedom of "reason", that Jefferson so often talks about, that renders them inherently unable to deliver freedom anywhere in the world.

Re: Irshad Manji | Sharia law still rules. Bush, you're no liberator. Karzai, you're no Thomas Jefferson.

And you are ungrateful.

Enough said.

I'm afraid the present U.S. administration isn't going to be able to provide much guidance into how to achieve the "workable separation of church and state" that America has presuably attained.

That's why Afghanistan will remain a primitive, intolerant, violent, corrupt, and poor country during this millenium.

It doesn't deserve one drop of the blood (Western or otherwise) that was spilled to kick out those other savages, the Taliban, from power.

Sure, Afghanistan doesn't have complete freedom of speech, but are things better now than they were 5-10 years ago? The wheels of progress tend to move rather slowly.

Ishrad,
I commend your courage and your insights. I was raised Muslim here in the states, first through the Nation of Islam, which most arrogant, imperialist Arab/Orthodox Muslims dismiss as not Islamic at all because of the NOI's fundamental differences - the biggest difference being that NOI theology mixes Islamic principles and practices with Black nationalism, which was needed for Black folks' survival in the states in the 1930s when the NOI was formed and through the 1970s when the NOI reached its height.

The NOI, which I detail in my book Little X: Growing Up in the Nation of Islam, but sharply criticize in the sequel, has some of the same troubles you describe in your book, "The Trouble with Islam Today."

What I find most fascinating in your book is the clear evidence of how racist Arab Muslims are. These are the folks we sought to emulate!

I left Islam as a young woman, feeling no interest in reforming it as you are. But I applaud your courage and appreciate your research.