Saner take on things:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071210/od_nm/christmas_dc;_ylt=AoV6_LAmUvfvNWXX1ciRucGs0NUE

"For those who have faith, to that faith will always be attached doubt (otherwise it would be called "knowing", not faith). Whenever there is doubt, there is insecurity. Whenever there is insecurity, there is paranoid reaction generated by the insecure ego."

Wow, kinda reminds me of Yoda and his trailing connections about the Dark Side.

By the same logic:

To those who don't have faith, this will always be attached to confidence. Whenever there is confidence there is arrogance. Whenever there is arrogance there is blindness. Whenever there is blindness there is denial that there are those who can indeed see what the blind choose not to see, which in turn generates hostility and persecution against those who see.

Ms. Lalli: I agree 100%, but the reason most people don't is that bigotry and the suppression of non-Christian religious beliefs in this country has become acceptable and preferred to respect for others' beliefs in our country. In that way we are not as different from the Iranian Mullahs or the Taliban as we would like to believe. I have no doubt that one day Christianity will become the "official religion" of the U.S.A., and the separation of church and state will be eroded to the point where it no longer has protective effect on the rights of religious minorities. People in this country simply do not believe in the 1st Amendment and have no respect for minority religious believers. Shame on us.

For those who have faith, to that faith will always be attached doubt (otherwise it would be called "knowing", not faith). Whenever there is doubt, there is insecurity. Whenever there is insecurity, there is paranoid reaction generated by the insecure ego.

Christian outrage at this supposed "war on Christmas" is nothing more that a barometer of Christian insecurity in that which they "believe" in, but can never truly know.

Amen, sister.

As a Deep South, evangelical, bible-toting Christian, I agree with your theme. (Obviously I would beg to differ on the atheism part.)

Christ is honored by remembering what he did and said year round, not by force-feeding his name to others toward the end of the year.

Just remember that many Christians today reject the ritualistic, "paint by numbers" version of Christ's message that leads to these culture wars. Do I believe every word that Christ said? You bet. Do I hope you believe him too? I do. Am I serving my Savior by trying to force you to say his name, or by embarrassing kids? I don't think so.

God bless you all, on this mid-winter day and every day!

Happy, blessed, merry chrismahanukwanzayulakeiduladhas!

I'm tempted to make a joke about global warming being a plot by Christian extremists i.e. evangelists to eliminate the winter season for its crime of inspiring "winter holidays" "winter concerts" "winter greetings" et al. However, considering their role in allowing it to worsen, for example, by keeping Gore out of power and Bush in the White House, it's not at all funny.

Just to clarify a bit of my above post - the first settlers didn't celebrate Christmas but were most definitely defiantly Christian of the Puritan/Pilgrim persuasion, who therefore didn't celebrate the pagan winter solstice celebration that centuries (?) later would be co-opted to end the year on a heavenly note.

"If you were a true agnostic you would not care one bit what they called the holidays. If you dont believe in Christ's divinity, as I do not, then you are meant to be on the outside at Christmas time, just as you are meant to be during Ramadan. Your inclination to spend time worrying and writing about all forms of witchcraft belies insecurity about your belief in nothing. Of course you could just be a provocateur looking to use polemics to earn some cash."
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Methinks Baltazar is frightened of what Nica says? What made you think any of this is 'bothering' her? Because she wrote a blog on it?

this reminds me of D'Souza's blog on AOL stating that atheists 'hate christmas' and 'law suits are causing retailers to change christmas to holiday, etc.

But there has not been a law suit because a retailer changed christmas to holiday.

My high school always called the december concert a winter concert.

Why would you impose 'christmas' on a public school? Isn't that what parochial schools are for?

BALTSAR, I share your outrage. If that happens again please insist that our early American heritage be honored. The first settlers didn't celebrate Christmas but the colors red and green were ancient celebratory colors introduced to the British Isles during the time of Beowulf. Vikings wore red to celebrate Norse holidays BEFORE and after they were given a choice by their King Olaf to convert to Christianity or be killed (for which Olaf was made Saint after he died!!) The British adopted red for their military coats from the Viking custom. Green a la pine forests was a natural for both North Western Europe was heavily forested eastern North America. In sum, red and green are early American colors for winter parties.

Nice piece, although with one factual error. Jesus was born April 19, 7 BCE according to researchers who are knowledgeable about the astrology of that era (essential knowledge if you wish to duplicate the work of the Magi who found Jesus based on his astrology).

Christ is only about Christmas because early Christianity hijacked the winter solstice, which at the time was dated December 25 (due to the progression of the equinoxes).

I strident reject calls to keep Christ in Christmas or to ignore the traditions which have their roots in paganism. Pagan celebrations were not about the Roman, Celtic or Norse gods. Rather, the pagan gods are explanatory tools to better explain man and how he deals with the world around him.

In the northern latitudes, people get depressed as the shadows grow longer. Pagan rituals, as well as the placement of Christmas in December (where it no longer conflicts with Eastertide - which would bring in a reincarnation theme that the opponents of gnosticismlikely wanted to avoid) have the purpose of raising our spirits - often with spirits and revelry, as well as the lighting of fires and candles (note Chanukah). It fulfills a deep need within us, regardless of the deity we accept or reject.

Those of us who are Christians proclaim Jesus as the light of the world, so the placement of Christmas here is appropriate for Christians. One of the most beautiful aspects of the Christmas cycle is the lighting of candles in a dark church at midnight Mass - which also occurs at the Easter vigil. The roots of this are all pagan. However, we must mind our manners when dealing with unbelievers. Jesus did not condemn the unbelievers. He saved and saves his wrath for those who proclalim to follow him but practice intolerance toward others.

Nica Lalli says:
"Atheism is on the rise. The 2001 American Religious Identification Survey said that 14 percent of the American population has no religion or does not believe in God. The number of that same group from 1990 is only 8 percent. And since 2001 there has been another phenomenon – books written about atheism. Books that sell. Books that remain on the best seller list for weeks, even months."

I say:
"Islam has become the fastest growing religion in America, which invented the Internet and satellite TV. There are now American-born imams who know the Koran and the Haddith by heart and are authorized to issue fatwas. All the Islamic literature is now everywhere, thanks to the Internet. This was made possible by American technology and Arab oil money.

Arab oil money has contributed to the building of large mosques, big Islamic institutes and libraries, and to the printing of the Holy Koran and other religious books in large quantities in many languages in many parts of the world.

Even within the poorest Islamic states Islam is growing as fast as demography. Wherever you go, there is a new mosque and a new school (where people are introduced to God) because there is a new village, town or suburb. Small towns are swelling into big cities, and so small mosques and schools are becoming bigger and bigger. Therefore, the number of people who know (of) God is ever increasing.

Modern means of communication and transport(ation) together with modern educational systems have made world interaction incredibly easier every day. More and more people are coming out of illiteracy. More and more people are learning more and more about each other. More and more people are coming towards each other. Emigration, tourism and business travel are playing a great role in the ever-increasing exchange of human experience. Globalisation will push this exchange even further.

It is again interesting to remember that Islam entered many parts of the world without having to draw the sword for it. Indonesia and parts of sub-Saharan Africa are such places where Islam was introduced through trade rather than war."

Nica Lalli says:
"so why not be open instead of being exclusive. If the name Christmas leaves people out, why is it a war to change it and let people in?"

I say:
"This is still possible today. There is no need for cluster bombs to promote Christianity or for suicide-bombings to promote Islam. Islam is for freedom of choice. Islam is self-confident because the Koran says it is the true Word of God. So truth will out in the end. Otherwise, why should it be called truth ? There should be no fear, therefore, for a Christian priest to talk about Christianity live on Iqraa TV, or for a Muslim imam to talk about Islam live on World Harvest Radio. Why shouldn’t there be a fair competition between all ? Truth will out !"

See my article "On the End of History" at:

http://arabicwithlagouader.blogspot.com/

If you were a true agnostic you would not care one bit what they called the holidays. If you dont believe in Christ's divinity, as I do not, then you are meant to be on the outside at Christmas time, just as you are meant to be during Ramadan. Your inclination to spend time worrying and writing about all forms of witchcraft belies insecurity about your belief in nothing. Of course you could just be a provocateur looking to use polemics to earn some cash.

I WAS ONCE PUBLICLY CHIDED BY A FRIZZY-HAIRED JEWISH WOMAN (SHE BUTTED IN RIGHT OUT OF THE BLUE) FOR COMPLEMENTING SOMEONE ELSE'S RED SWEATER BY CALLING IT CHRISTMASY IN A PUBLIC PLACE. IN ANOTHER VEIN, THE SO-CALLED HOLIDAY COMMITTEE AT WORK ANGSTED FOR DAYS ABOUT WHAT COLORS TO CHOOSE FOR THE ANNUAL SO-CALLED HOLIDAY PARTY- AND WHAT COLORS DID THEY FINALLY CHOOSE? BLUE AND WHITE WITH SIX-POINTED SNOWFLAKES! AS ANYBODY KNOWS- THESE ARE THE HANUKKAH COLORS. WHY THIS DOUBLE STANDARD? THEY IGNORED "KWANZA" ALTOGETHER IN THEIR ZEAL TO DE-CHRISTMASIZE THE YEARLY GET-TOGETHER.

Let's remember, please, that your "Christmas" was stolen from a much earlier and richer Holiday tradition of those you would call "pagans" and "heathens." WE would like YOU to return our rightful Holiday to us, take your fables and religion of the sword and fortune and go back to your caves in the mid-east and leave the rest of the world in peace.

BALTASAR, Christians don't celebrate winter. Still, as you point out, they could if they wished, the season being inclusive. So why are they upset by "winter greetings" and "winter holidays"? Are they envious of those who love winter?

Interesting comments. I am as rabid an anti-religionist as anyone I read on these boards, but I must say, I am not horrified by the Yuletide season. Once one looks past the materialist excesses, the idea of receiving and giving gifts, hanging with family/friends, and taking an enforced holiday doesn't seem so execrable. And since the Saturnalia are no longer officially celebrated, the only excuse we really have for taking (in my case) two weeks off is the birth of JC. Whether the birth date was fixed at ecumenical councils centuries after the supposed event is beside the point. Let's set aside the persecution complex for a moment, and let's pick our battles. It is the biggest holiday of the season, a significant percentage of humans celebrate it, so why not join in the festivities? This season, why don't we nonbelievers all take a moment to wish that nervous Christian cashier a Merry Christmas. The simple act will incur goodwill, our common goal. And fear not, Jefferson's wall of separation will still stand intact. Peace on earth and goodwill to men - Linus's creed is one we can all subscribe to.

Cheers, and Merry Christmas.

EVERY RELIGION IS INCLUSIVE TO THOSE WHO ACCEPT ITS TEACHINGS. AS TO THOSE WHO DO NOT - WHY SHOULD THEY BE UPSET IF THEY DO NOT ACCEPT THOSE TEACHINGS ANYWAY?

IT'S PRETTY OBVIOUS THAT SOME INTEREST GROUPS WISH TO NEUTRALIZE CHRISTMAS JUST BECAUSE THEY DO NOT CELEBRATE IT...IT'S A CASE OF OUTSIDER'S ENVY.

My apartment building here in Manhattan has a giant menorah set up in the lobby in which they are currently lighting an additional candle everyday. Is this what I pay for? Go back to Long Beach and worship your own god, freaks! This is the 21st century! Or are we calling those candles a "holiday menorah" now? Be inclusive people!

A Joyful Yuletide to you all.

Merry Yule!

Yes, regardless of what Christians have been shoved down threir throats in church, the origins of this holiday are almost ENTIRELY based on the Pagan celebration on Yule. With a manger thrown in.

Holly, mistletoe, the christmans tree (you think christmas trees and reindeer thrive in the Judean desert?) lights, wassail and even it's association with the new year are all pagan.

When Christians bludgeon us over the heads with Merry Christmas, it just shows how EVIL their cultural agenda is. Why can't they tolerate other faiths???

If there really was some sort of heavenly justice, Christians would have quite a bit to account for.

"Why is it a war to change it and let people in?" Truly, it's not, and for it to be so-called is an ominous projection by Christians betraying the extent to which they would go to retain illegal privileges. The power of religion to intimidate is owed entirely to its wretched history of ruthless disregard for others' life and liberty. Thank you, Ms. Lalli for your brave words.

Want to know what this season means in the arctic? Darkness.

Solstice is Dec. 19-21. The sun hangs for a period in the sphere of orbiting earth, and then begins it's cycle again to the brightest day, June 19-21. Dec. 25th was the date chosen to celebrate the birth of Christ. What you make of this season is your choice, open the catalogs and buy something, be an athiest.

During the darkest days in the arctic, I ponder scripture, hope for the daylight of tomorrow, and burn the catalogs in the woodstove.

May the light be with you on this day, Dec. 19-25, celebration of the birth of Christ. If you feel the need to spend money, donate to CRS.

Catholic Relief Services

All this nonsense of people fighting over what to call the Christmas holiday would be tragic if I did not find it so humorous. When ‘Christians’ picket Wal-Mart because the employees salute customers with “Happy Holiday” instead of “Merry Christmas” Christianity sank to a new low, prompting me to write in “Notes from my desk” in my blog Quixotictales (http://blog.escapenet.ch/Quixotictales/) :

To America’s Christian Churches: Stop commercializing Christmas by using the holiday to recruit new members and collect Christmas contributions.

To Wal-Mart: Do not have your employees use the salutation “Happy Holidays” during the Christmas Season but, instead, tell the customers to “Have a nice day”!

Certainly, I have nothing against atheist even though I disagree with them on many issue. In San Diego, an atheist won a law suit to remove a cross from Mt. Soledad and I disagreed not only with the atheist but also the court. The cross was put there as a monument to soldiers killed in battle, and to me, it was merely a historical monument; it is sort of a universal symbol, in America anyway. Seems to me even atheist would recognize a cross as a marker of a grave. However, the atheist objector to the cross on Mt. Soledad said that the cross was offensive to him; my thought was that he must have a terrible time driving down the highway passing those telephone poles all along the way. My solution to the cross problem was to change the Mt. Soledad cross monument from a monument to soldiers killed in American wars to a monument to AT&T for contributions to American communications.
Personally, I was brought up a Christian and still consider myself a believer but have disassociated myself with the Organized Christian Church and others who are self proclaimed Christians because of the bad reputation of the churches and fanatic Christians in general. I just don’t want to be associated with people like Falwell, Oral Roberts, President Bush, James Dobson, Franklin Graham, or those other hate mongers who are promoting a religious war with all Muslims (including the five million American Muslims, I presume) referring to all Muslims as Islamic fascist terrorists. Unfortunately, almost all the Republican Presidential candidates, are promoting war with Islam, which is scary as heck.
Actually, many of my dearest friends are atheists and perhaps it is because they are atheists; seems like my Christian family and friends are always a little leery of me. I become suspect when people find out my favorite Christmas music album is by Barbara Streisand.
Seems that the Communist had a point when they declared religion the opiate of the people.

All this nonsense of people fighting over what to call the Christmas holiday would be tragic if I did not find it so humorous. When ‘Christians’ picket Wal-Mart because the employees salute customers with “Happy Holiday” instead of “Merry Christmas” Christianity sank to a new low, prompting me to write in “Notes from my desk” in my blog Quixotictales (http://blog.escapenet.ch/Quixotictales/) :

To America’s Christian Churches: Stop commercializing Christmas by using the holiday to recruit new members and collect Christmas contributions.

To Wal-Mart: Do not have your employees use the salutation “Happy Holidays” during the Christmas Season but, instead, tell the customers to “Have a nice day”!

Certainly, I have nothing against atheist even though I disagree with them on many issue. In San Diego, an atheist won a law suit to remove a cross from Mt. Soledad and I disagreed not only with the atheist but also the court. The cross was put there as a monument to soldiers killed in battle, and to me, it was merely a historical monument; it is sort of a universal symbol, in America anyway. Seems to me even atheist would recognize a cross as a marker of a grave. However, the atheist objector to the cross on Mt. Soledad said that the cross was offensive to him; my thought was that he must have a terrible time driving down the highway passing those telephone poles all along the way. My solution to the cross problem was to change the Mt. Soledad cross monument from a monument to soldiers killed in American wars to a monument to AT&T for contributions to American communications.
Personally, I was brought up a Christian and still consider myself a believer but have disassociated myself with the Organized Christian Church and others who are self proclaimed Christians because of the bad reputation of the churches and fanatic Christians in general. I just don’t want to be associated with people like Falwell, Oral Roberts, President Bush, James Dobson, Franklin Graham, or those other hate mongers who are promoting a religious war with all Muslims (including the five million American Muslims, I presume) referring to all Muslims as Islamic fascist terrorists. Unfortunately, almost all the Republican Presidential candidates, are promoting war with Islam, which is scary as heck.
Actually, many of my dearest friends are atheists and perhaps it is because they are atheists; seems like my Christian family and friends are always a little leery of me. I become suspect when people find out my favorite Christmas music album is by Barbara Streisand.
Seems that the Communist had a point when they declared religion the opiate of the people.

Tim Wildmo's AFA keeps track of merchants who do and don't use the word "Christmas" in their December adverts. Their "news" page also runs updates when a store that had been advertising using the word "Holidays" changes their ad to read "Christmas." Recently they ran a "victory" announcement because PetSmart had put the word "Christmas" back in its ads. I sent them an email asking why exactly they were crowing over the fact that the name of their Messiah was being employed to sell dog sweaters and catnip mice. If I were Christian, I would consider that blasphemous. And I'm pretty sure that even if they had been available, the MAgi would not have brought Jesus a PlayStation. I didn't get a response.

Very interesting commentary.

The truth of the matter is that the 'holidays' this time of year claim to center around Christ, but are diametrically opposite to His teachings. Mankind has put the stamp of Christ on observances that Christ and God warned humans not to do (Learn not the way of the heathen, etc). Thus, religious confusion and deception reign (Rev 12:9). The law of God has never been done away with. Ordinances, how things are observed, are the only things that have changed. Part of the reason why there is religious confusion to this day. "Then, why would God allow it?" some ask. Because we requested it to be that way..from the very beginning. But there is only an alloted time for us to do it 'our way'. Blind eyes cannot make a wrong a right. True students of scripture know what/how/when to worship the creator and His son. And it doesnt involve commercialism, mistletoe, decorated trees (that date back to Nimrod), Santa Claus, etc etc. All of these, scripture clearly states, are error...since they are from paganism. So..until mankind has the opportunity to learn the truth...the way God intended for us to be...to understand the marvelous reason why we were created and what our purpose is...the world will have to endure the confusion which reigns not only at this time of year, but throughout the year in many respects.

Because we see an emerging culture that seeks to remove Christianity from its dominant position in our country. I lament it, to be sure.

Our world is changing fast. I wouldn't be surprised if the United States ceased to exist in the next fifty years, becoming known as Unified North America, or something similar, and completey revising its charter documents. The times they are a changing, and I don't think it's for the good.