You wrote, "Lets stop you right there Thomas. You say you have personally MET Him?", yes, I have met God.
God is a Trinity and the First Person of the Trinity Who is referred to as the Father came into my heart on the 28th of January of 2000 and I can't tell you how I knew it was Him but I did know it was Him.
By the way I use male pronouns but God is not a male or a female or an it. For all of the people that like to look down on others for whatever reason, I was taught in 2nd grade that, God is Love, and I just accepted it at the time but I had no idea that the statement, God is Love, was literal, in the sense that God is a being of Pure Love, until God the Father came into my heart, when you meet Him you will know also.
The Third Person of the Trinity, Who is referred to as the Holy Spirit, came into my body on the 29th of January of 2000 at St. Luke's Church in Ocean City, MD and revealed to me that Jesus really is present in the Catholic Eucharist, Jesus is referred to as the Second Person of the Trinity.
As when the Father came into my heart, when the Holy Spirit came into my body, I just knew that it was Him. By the way, I know that the Catholic Eucharist is Jesus, but I believe that the Eucharist in other denominations are also Him but I do not know, it was only revealed to me once and it was at a Catholic Eucharist.
You also wrote, "How interesting.Most of the greatest brains on the planet have searched for Him for thousands of years.", personally, I would say "How interesting", is, to say the least, an understatement. I didn't ask to be chosen by God but I have said YES.
You also wrote, "Say Hi to Him for me Thomas,next time you see Him." as I have said before on previous postings, I met God, I did not see Him and concerning this, I wrote that the reason for the commandment about not making graven images of God is because God knows that it would be impossible to make an image of Pure Love.
As I have also written, God is not a he, a she or an it, but God-Incarnate was a male, and isn't it interesting that when Mary found out that she was to be the Mother of God-Incarnate, she gave her consent, "Let it be done unto me according to Thy Word."
God is, to put it mildly, so much nicer than what anyone could possibly gather by reading some of the garbage being spewed out by some of the people that know His Name.
Also these are only some of the things that have happened to me.
I would like to repeat that; God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof, it is important what you do and why you do it and what you know, and God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable.
Mad Love: " Lately I've been wondering if the Right Wingers are A) lying or B) stupid. I don't really see a third option"
C. Manipulative
And if people like you stop reading - and responding, then the right wingers will be better able to manipulate the impressionable people who keep reading until the end.
"The central problem with a rigid secularism is simple: it would remove one of the main sources of social reform – the passion for justice – in American history."
Sorry, but I stopped reading right about there. Lately I've been wondering if the Right Wingers are A) lying or B) stupid. I don't really see a third option.
Sorry, but I've used the old Greek shorthand for Christ (ie: X, the Greek letter "chi") since the days when I myself was a Xian. I don't see any reason to abandon it now that I'm an atheist, least of all because some Xians (not you, necessarily) get their panties all in a wad because they haven't a clue as to the history of their own religion (I'm thinking of the "keep Christ in Xmas" crowd).
BTW - I've had Xians on this blog take me to task for using an "ancient" shorthand for Christ in the 21st century. They think I should drop it as it has lost its meaning in contemporary American Xianity. I note that this admonishment comes from people who stake their lives on an unverifiable and probably fictional story that's over 2,000 years old (and who have no problem believing that the OT stories are actual history), and who - speaking of old-style writings that have lost their meaning to contemporary American audiences - most likely have a crucifixion painting somewhere in their home that depicts Christ on the cross with a sign nailed above his head sporting the Roman letters "INRI".
Not having read all of Chris's posts closely, but having read his most recent,
his "explanation" of religion in general seems anthropolgically quite plausible and well supported by historical and anthropoligical evidence,
and not particularly negative towards Christianity in particular, but a general description of a reasonable genesis for religion.
I doubt Chris would say Christianity is particularly better or worse than any other relgion (would you Chris?).
He *could* of course be wrong, and ther reason that religion exists is that a God instituted it among men.
But given that there are about 10,000 religions and about 39,000 different Gods, one needs to explain how ALL these different religions came to be as a result of the Monotheistic Christian God.
Or whether there isn't a more general explanation that has nothing to do with any God that actually exists, but rather with the human need to create a God in their imaginations. Which in 38,999 cases out of 39,000, man must have done, since Christians believe in only One God.
Arminius - could you be specific regarding Chris E's bigotry towards Christians and how it is a "mirror image" of the Pat Robertsons of the world?
What Chris said may seem harsh, but the way I take it is - many religious people have their own personal version of what their religion is, that does not necessarily relate directly to what their "holy book" says or how others who practice the same religion perceive it. This personalization makes it difficult for an outsider who’s trying to understand a specific religion. I personally don’t think Chris’ remarks come close to the kind of stuff Pat Robertson says.
Other than that I don't think I've said anything untrue. Christianity, like all religious, is an ancient attempt at understanding human experience, both internal (subjective) and external (obhective). Being prescientific, its supposedly factual assertions are basically just myths, and they carry the potential to overshadow whatever insights into the human condition exist in adages such as "love thy neighbor" and "we see as if through a glass, dimly".
I can't imagine that in ancient times, when the crops failed, or the rains didn't come, or the sickness came, that nobody proposed an explanation for why, and I imagine that the person with the most mesmerizing explanation advanced his stature in the group. In Darwinian fashion, ignorance of the physical causes of things exerted selection pressure favoring the phantasmagorical, and eventually the storytellers, who by this time were powerful leaders of the community, developed stories that were so all-encompassing that they became the source of meaning itself. Of course, being the cheif storyteller is an enviable position, so the competition would be sufficiently fierce that military might and iron rule would have to accompany the story, to allow it to survive and conquor the neighboring stories.
Mr Mark: “I wonder what it feels like to…go through life with the blood of innocents fairly dripping from your hands?”
Well, one typical response is to deny it and move on to another project which will make everyone appreciate you for the wonderful person you really are. For instance: Restoring Religion to its Rightful Place in Government. Not a theocracy, you understand, just what the founders had in mind in the first place (be vague here). Scare atheists with your ability to get published in reputable newspapers. Scare Blacks with the specter of a future silenced MLK type. Scare liberal Christians with the specter of atheists enforcing a “strict secularism” that hastens the demise of their steadily emptying churches and scare the media with that old stand-by – the specter of being branded as liberal.
Don’t worry, Mr Mark – Gerson is reading this. Watch a future column characterizing militant atheists, based on his take of the feedback here.
Arminius – Xtian isn’t an insult. X is an ancient symbol that Xtians themselves used. For a start on atheist/liberal Christian communication, ask some of your church buddies to read through this blog and give their opinions. Then report back to us. Also, you can reach me at efavorite at verizon dot net. Also, agree that Gerson deserves a voice here, with everyone else. I’m personally delighted to hear more about his views and to give him the opportunity to read my “squadron of angels” letter to the editor.
Your blanket condemnation of Christianity, and all religions, is bigotry and intolerance. It is an unfortunate mirror image of the Pat Robertsons of the world denouncing non-believers. The problems of the world will never get solved by this conflict.
"Please do not place the label 'Christian' on the KKK. They are no more true Christian than Al Qaida is true Islamic."
That is is problem. There is no "true" Christianity because Christianity isn't true. Consequently, "true" Christianity is whatever whomever is power says it is. Al Qaida is more "true" to historic Islam than whatever it is you think "true" Islam is now, and like it or not, the KKK is more "true" to historic Christianity than whatever you think "true" Christianity is now. This is just one of many reasons why religion cannot be a firm foundation for ethics.
I cannot define what a true Christian (please, not Xian, type the rest of the letters) is., Because I am still on my journey, trying to figure it out as best as I can.
I do know (but cannot prove) that God IS, that He is with me. No, I have not met Him, as T Baum has said. No burning shrubbery, etc. But I know. And I truly believe that the message that Jesus teaches is that God is Love. Summed up in the Two Great Commandments. As for the hellfire and damnation, I do not take that literally. Hell is separation, self willed, from the Love of God.
And I believe that if there is a heaven, any good person will be welcome, Christian or not.
I do not believe that Bush or Gerson or the vitriolic bible thumpers on tv are true Christians. Where in them is the message of Love?
When I see Xians acting in a manner that I find deplorable, I see them as "true" Xians. I base that on what I've read in the Bible, what Jesus said, and the collective history of Xians. Let's not forget that Jesus said believing in him meant to love your enemy while going to war with your immediate family. Let's not forget that it was Jesus - not the OT god - who spoke of eternal hell fire for those who didn't believe in him.
I see gw bush acting like a true Xian. Ditto Mr Gerson. Ditto the writings of Cal Thomas. These people ARE true Xians, and they're acting the way that many (not all) Xians have acted in the distant and immediate past. Xians are hardly some Norman Rockwell-ish group of plain folk who bear any and all ill with quiet dignity and benign indifference. They're radicals who embrace fantasy as reality and act accordingly.
Give me an example of a "true Xian" (ie: moderate) whose actions and beliefs lie outside of the precepts of the Bible and I'll show you a person whose faith has been moderated by secularism.
Perhaps you can disencumber me of my admitted prejudice.
When I see Xians acting in a manner that I find deplorable, I see them as "true" Xians. I base that on what I've read in the Bible, what Jesus said, and the collective history of Xians. Let's not forget that Jesus said believing in him meant to love your enemy while going to war with your immediate family. Let's not forget that it was Jesus - not the OT god - who spoke of eternal hell fire for those who didn't believe in him.
I see gw bush acting like a true Xian. Ditto Mr Gerson. Ditto the writings of Cal Thomas. These people ARE true Xians, and they're acting the way that many (not all) Xians have acted in the distant and immediate past. Xians are hardly some Norman Rockwell-ish group of plain folk who bear any and all ill with quiet dignity and benign indifference. They're radicals who embrace fantasy as reality and act accordingly.
Give me an example of a "true Xian" (ie: moderate) whose actions and beliefs lie outside of the precepts of the Bible and I'll show you a person whose faith has been moderated by secularism.
Perhaps you can disencumber me of my admitted prejudice.
Almost forgot. I see some bashing of WaPo for 'allowing such crap/drivel/extremest statements on their site'. A bit here, more elsewhere.
Horse poop. WaPo is being even handed in allowing people of all stripes here. They are not agreeing with any, just allowing free discussion. Something to do the 1st amendment, perhaps.
If there were not controversial offerings here, which have included religious conservatives, religious liberals, regardless of faith, as well as non-believers, what would these blogs be? BORING. None would contribute that had anything worth contributing.
As Gen. George Patton said, "If everyone in the room is in agreement, then somebody isn't thinking".
E-Fav,
Yes, the liberal Christians can work with the non-believers, I believe. Possibly with the moderates too. How? I don't know. Perhaps the two of us are qualified to try to figure out how, since we have opposite paths. I came back to Christianity from non-belief, you did the reverse.
Henry James,
Thanks for the compliment. I really like the way you think and write. Yes, we are in agreement. Any person on this planet, regardless of faith or lack thereof can be just as moral as any other. Or not. Anyone who says differently has blinders on; I have seen moral people of all types with my own eyes.
Chris,
Please do not place the label 'Christian' on the KKK. They are no more true Christian than Al Qaida is true Islamic.
The central problem with rigid Christian extremism is simple: it remove one of the main sources of social reform – the passion for freedom – in American history.
Michael Gerson is the author of the new book, "Heroic Conservatism." Gerson is a former Bush White House speech writer, hateful right-wing neocon, Christian extremist, misogynist, current Newsweek contributor and chief Washington Post propagandist for Dick Cheney.
If you look at Christian history before the Enlightenment (and the introduction of secularism) you will find that faith dictated that humans had no worth or natural rights. Kings were appointed by God himself and were to have absolute powers, mirroring the divine hierarchy of God in heaven.
It was secularism that taught slavery and torture were bad (there is no commandment against these.); That parents did not have the right to beat their children in an abusive, harmful way. That we should preserve the earth by polluting less and trying to make the world better for future generaitons.
Disagree? Show us the biblical passages.
Since most people are IGNORANT of history -- it is easy for you to make false statements with ease.
If you look at Christian history before the Enlightenment (and the introduction of secularism) you will find that faith dictated that humans had no worth or natural rights. Kings were appointed by God himself and were to have absolute powers, mirroring the divine hierarchy of God in heaven.
It was secularism that taught slavery and torture were bad (there is no commandment against these.); That parents did not have the right to beat their children in an abusive, harmful way. That we should preserve the earth by polluting less and trying to make the world better for future generaitons.
Disagree? Show us the biblical passages.
Since most people are IGNORANT of history -- sit is easy for you to make false statements with ease.
I was once a Christian -- but my studies of its history and origins convinced me it is mere superstition -- little different from belief in the old Greek Gods.
Many friends and acquaitances have implied they are more spiritual than me and that I should reconsider --
What a laugh. I need merely look at your actions (not your words) to see the truth.
You right wingers have created deaths and destruction in Iraq -- AND you have no moral qualms about it!!! Helping sick children is socialism to in your book too. Even Jesus wants to help the wealthy in your book.
One of my reasons for not wanting to backslid (believe in religion again) is the fear I might pronounce the "evil" you do under George Bush's leadership as --"good".
Ugh. I would have to turn off my brain for that and be a zomby. No thanks, I wish to make the world a better place for the next generation, not a worse one.
Note: I think there are some progressive Christians out there. I find them in the minority right now -- or at least, passive viz a viz the immoral right winger Christians.
Does anyone imagine for a second that Mr Gerson has the nuts to check in and read the comments that his column has inspired? I doubt it.
Only a few On Faith bloggers - Susan Jacoby, John Crossan et al - bother reading the comments of we lowly posters and responding to them. Most of the regular On Faith bloggers - Cal Thomas et al - treat their columns as a drive-by opportunity to spout RW and/or religious idiocies before heading off to spend their WaPo-earned fee at their local watering hole (and, no, you're not invited there, either).
It looks like Mr Gerson falls into this latter category. Why am I not surprised?
hi henry- i dont think thoreau held any religious beliefs- i know he was an abolitionist, and s darwin enthusiast.
i also didnt know who gerson is- and his argument isnt particularly compelling.
extreme secularism WAS the government of coercion in Turkey, until a few years ago with the election of tatip erdogan, who is an observant muslim, and the first PM to pray publily in office, and now abdullah gul has been elected as president, another actively practicing muslim (both with hijab wearing wives)
actually they have introduced a new focus on human rights, freedom of expression and religious freedom that was conspicuously absent under the militant secularist rule.
other than militancy, how would an all secular state enforce its rule of law?
you cant count on people to self govern themselves in any way (one of the actually positive functions of religion in society)
it definitely didnt work for 80 years in turkey.
the religious didnt go away, even though their religion was pretty much wiped out of their lives, disconnecting them from their past by changing the alphabet - a kid learning to read in 1925 couldnt read what was written in 1923!
im not sure what people mean when they say secularism.
many of the voices of the abolistionist movement were religious voices also, so thats not really a truism.
as a religious person, i never find it necessary to slam non-religious- its not really a competition
Mr Mark's citing the innocent blood on Gerson's hands coincides with this quote from Tim O;Brien's masterpiece The Things They Carried, which Pinsky quoted in today's NYT book review:
"a true war story is never moral. It does not instruct, nor encourage virtue, nor suggest proper models of human behavior, nor restrain men from doing the things that men have always done. If a story seems moral, do not believe it. If at the end of a war story you feel uplifted, or if you feel that some small bit of rectitude has been salvaged from the larger waste, then you have been made the victim of a very old and terrible lie."
All of Gerson's stories are War Stories, some literally, the others metaphorically.
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Mad Love -- You are forgiven! Just be on the lookout for the smart, manipulative liars - they're the worst kind.
November 6, 2007 8:54 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 6, 2007 08:54
E Favorite, if there is a distinction to be made between being manipulative and plain old lying forgive me for not honoring it.
November 6, 2007 6:23 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 6, 2007 06:23
TO WALDO AND THE REST OF HUMANITY:
You wrote, "Lets stop you right there Thomas. You say you have personally MET Him?", yes, I have met God.
God is a Trinity and the First Person of the Trinity Who is referred to as the Father came into my heart on the 28th of January of 2000 and I can't tell you how I knew it was Him but I did know it was Him.
By the way I use male pronouns but God is not a male or a female or an it. For all of the people that like to look down on others for whatever reason, I was taught in 2nd grade that, God is Love, and I just accepted it at the time but I had no idea that the statement, God is Love, was literal, in the sense that God is a being of Pure Love, until God the Father came into my heart, when you meet Him you will know also.
The Third Person of the Trinity, Who is referred to as the Holy Spirit, came into my body on the 29th of January of 2000 at St. Luke's Church in Ocean City, MD and revealed to me that Jesus really is present in the Catholic Eucharist, Jesus is referred to as the Second Person of the Trinity.
As when the Father came into my heart, when the Holy Spirit came into my body, I just knew that it was Him. By the way, I know that the Catholic Eucharist is Jesus, but I believe that the Eucharist in other denominations are also Him but I do not know, it was only revealed to me once and it was at a Catholic Eucharist.
You also wrote, "How interesting.Most of the greatest brains on the planet have searched for Him for thousands of years.", personally, I would say "How interesting", is, to say the least, an understatement. I didn't ask to be chosen by God but I have said YES.
You also wrote, "Say Hi to Him for me Thomas,next time you see Him." as I have said before on previous postings, I met God, I did not see Him and concerning this, I wrote that the reason for the commandment about not making graven images of God is because God knows that it would be impossible to make an image of Pure Love.
As I have also written, God is not a he, a she or an it, but God-Incarnate was a male, and isn't it interesting that when Mary found out that she was to be the Mother of God-Incarnate, she gave her consent, "Let it be done unto me according to Thy Word."
God is, to put it mildly, so much nicer than what anyone could possibly gather by reading some of the garbage being spewed out by some of the people that know His Name.
Also these are only some of the things that have happened to me.
I would like to repeat that; God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof, it is important what you do and why you do it and what you know, and God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable.
Take care, be ready, see you in the Kingdom.
Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.
November 5, 2007 1:59 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 5, 2007 13:59
Mad Love: " Lately I've been wondering if the Right Wingers are A) lying or B) stupid. I don't really see a third option"
C. Manipulative
And if people like you stop reading - and responding, then the right wingers will be better able to manipulate the impressionable people who keep reading until the end.
November 5, 2007 9:11 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 5, 2007 09:11
"The central problem with a rigid secularism is simple: it would remove one of the main sources of social reform – the passion for justice – in American history."
Sorry, but I stopped reading right about there. Lately I've been wondering if the Right Wingers are A) lying or B) stupid. I don't really see a third option.
November 5, 2007 5:56 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 5, 2007 05:56
Dear Arminius -
Sorry, but I've used the old Greek shorthand for Christ (ie: X, the Greek letter "chi") since the days when I myself was a Xian. I don't see any reason to abandon it now that I'm an atheist, least of all because some Xians (not you, necessarily) get their panties all in a wad because they haven't a clue as to the history of their own religion (I'm thinking of the "keep Christ in Xmas" crowd).
BTW - I've had Xians on this blog take me to task for using an "ancient" shorthand for Christ in the 21st century. They think I should drop it as it has lost its meaning in contemporary American Xianity. I note that this admonishment comes from people who stake their lives on an unverifiable and probably fictional story that's over 2,000 years old (and who have no problem believing that the OT stories are actual history), and who - speaking of old-style writings that have lost their meaning to contemporary American audiences - most likely have a crucifixion painting somewhere in their home that depicts Christ on the cross with a sign nailed above his head sporting the Roman letters "INRI".
That's my story and I'm sticking with it.
November 4, 2007 8:35 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 4, 2007 20:35
Arminius
Not having read all of Chris's posts closely, but having read his most recent,
his "explanation" of religion in general seems anthropolgically quite plausible and well supported by historical and anthropoligical evidence,
and not particularly negative towards Christianity in particular, but a general description of a reasonable genesis for religion.
I doubt Chris would say Christianity is particularly better or worse than any other relgion (would you Chris?).
He *could* of course be wrong, and ther reason that religion exists is that a God instituted it among men.
But given that there are about 10,000 religions and about 39,000 different Gods, one needs to explain how ALL these different religions came to be as a result of the Monotheistic Christian God.
Or whether there isn't a more general explanation that has nothing to do with any God that actually exists, but rather with the human need to create a God in their imaginations. Which in 38,999 cases out of 39,000, man must have done, since Christians believe in only One God.
November 4, 2007 8:35 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 4, 2007 20:35
Arminius - could you be specific regarding Chris E's bigotry towards Christians and how it is a "mirror image" of the Pat Robertsons of the world?
What Chris said may seem harsh, but the way I take it is - many religious people have their own personal version of what their religion is, that does not necessarily relate directly to what their "holy book" says or how others who practice the same religion perceive it. This personalization makes it difficult for an outsider who’s trying to understand a specific religion. I personally don’t think Chris’ remarks come close to the kind of stuff Pat Robertson says.
November 4, 2007 8:05 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 4, 2007 20:05
Arminius:
Sorry for misspelling your name.
Other than that I don't think I've said anything untrue. Christianity, like all religious, is an ancient attempt at understanding human experience, both internal (subjective) and external (obhective). Being prescientific, its supposedly factual assertions are basically just myths, and they carry the potential to overshadow whatever insights into the human condition exist in adages such as "love thy neighbor" and "we see as if through a glass, dimly".
I can't imagine that in ancient times, when the crops failed, or the rains didn't come, or the sickness came, that nobody proposed an explanation for why, and I imagine that the person with the most mesmerizing explanation advanced his stature in the group. In Darwinian fashion, ignorance of the physical causes of things exerted selection pressure favoring the phantasmagorical, and eventually the storytellers, who by this time were powerful leaders of the community, developed stories that were so all-encompassing that they became the source of meaning itself. Of course, being the cheif storyteller is an enviable position, so the competition would be sufficiently fierce that military might and iron rule would have to accompany the story, to allow it to survive and conquor the neighboring stories.
We are the heirs of this storytelling history.
That is religion.
November 4, 2007 7:50 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 4, 2007 19:50
Mr Mark: “I wonder what it feels like to…go through life with the blood of innocents fairly dripping from your hands?”
Well, one typical response is to deny it and move on to another project which will make everyone appreciate you for the wonderful person you really are. For instance: Restoring Religion to its Rightful Place in Government. Not a theocracy, you understand, just what the founders had in mind in the first place (be vague here). Scare atheists with your ability to get published in reputable newspapers. Scare Blacks with the specter of a future silenced MLK type. Scare liberal Christians with the specter of atheists enforcing a “strict secularism” that hastens the demise of their steadily emptying churches and scare the media with that old stand-by – the specter of being branded as liberal.
Don’t worry, Mr Mark – Gerson is reading this. Watch a future column characterizing militant atheists, based on his take of the feedback here.
Arminius – Xtian isn’t an insult. X is an ancient symbol that Xtians themselves used. For a start on atheist/liberal Christian communication, ask some of your church buddies to read through this blog and give their opinions. Then report back to us. Also, you can reach me at efavorite at verizon dot net. Also, agree that Gerson deserves a voice here, with everyone else. I’m personally delighted to hear more about his views and to give him the opportunity to read my “squadron of angels” letter to the editor.
November 4, 2007 7:14 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 4, 2007 19:14
Chris,
Your blanket condemnation of Christianity, and all religions, is bigotry and intolerance. It is an unfortunate mirror image of the Pat Robertsons of the world denouncing non-believers. The problems of the world will never get solved by this conflict.
Arminius
November 4, 2007 7:13 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 4, 2007 19:13
Animus:
You wrote:
"Please do not place the label 'Christian' on the KKK. They are no more true Christian than Al Qaida is true Islamic."
That is is problem. There is no "true" Christianity because Christianity isn't true. Consequently, "true" Christianity is whatever whomever is power says it is. Al Qaida is more "true" to historic Islam than whatever it is you think "true" Islam is now, and like it or not, the KKK is more "true" to historic Christianity than whatever you think "true" Christianity is now. This is just one of many reasons why religion cannot be a firm foundation for ethics.
November 4, 2007 6:31 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 4, 2007 18:31
Mr Mark,
I cannot define what a true Christian (please, not Xian, type the rest of the letters) is., Because I am still on my journey, trying to figure it out as best as I can.
I do know (but cannot prove) that God IS, that He is with me. No, I have not met Him, as T Baum has said. No burning shrubbery, etc. But I know. And I truly believe that the message that Jesus teaches is that God is Love. Summed up in the Two Great Commandments. As for the hellfire and damnation, I do not take that literally. Hell is separation, self willed, from the Love of God.
And I believe that if there is a heaven, any good person will be welcome, Christian or not.
I do not believe that Bush or Gerson or the vitriolic bible thumpers on tv are true Christians. Where in them is the message of Love?
That's the best I can do.
God bless,
Arminius
November 4, 2007 5:47 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 4, 2007 17:47
Arminius -
What is your definition of a "true" Xian?
When I see Xians acting in a manner that I find deplorable, I see them as "true" Xians. I base that on what I've read in the Bible, what Jesus said, and the collective history of Xians. Let's not forget that Jesus said believing in him meant to love your enemy while going to war with your immediate family. Let's not forget that it was Jesus - not the OT god - who spoke of eternal hell fire for those who didn't believe in him.
I see gw bush acting like a true Xian. Ditto Mr Gerson. Ditto the writings of Cal Thomas. These people ARE true Xians, and they're acting the way that many (not all) Xians have acted in the distant and immediate past. Xians are hardly some Norman Rockwell-ish group of plain folk who bear any and all ill with quiet dignity and benign indifference. They're radicals who embrace fantasy as reality and act accordingly.
Give me an example of a "true Xian" (ie: moderate) whose actions and beliefs lie outside of the precepts of the Bible and I'll show you a person whose faith has been moderated by secularism.
Perhaps you can disencumber me of my admitted prejudice.
November 4, 2007 4:49 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 4, 2007 16:49
Arminius -
What is your definition of a "true" Xian?
When I see Xians acting in a manner that I find deplorable, I see them as "true" Xians. I base that on what I've read in the Bible, what Jesus said, and the collective history of Xians. Let's not forget that Jesus said believing in him meant to love your enemy while going to war with your immediate family. Let's not forget that it was Jesus - not the OT god - who spoke of eternal hell fire for those who didn't believe in him.
I see gw bush acting like a true Xian. Ditto Mr Gerson. Ditto the writings of Cal Thomas. These people ARE true Xians, and they're acting the way that many (not all) Xians have acted in the distant and immediate past. Xians are hardly some Norman Rockwell-ish group of plain folk who bear any and all ill with quiet dignity and benign indifference. They're radicals who embrace fantasy as reality and act accordingly.
Give me an example of a "true Xian" (ie: moderate) whose actions and beliefs lie outside of the precepts of the Bible and I'll show you a person whose faith has been moderated by secularism.
Perhaps you can disencumber me of my admitted prejudice.
November 4, 2007 4:49 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 4, 2007 16:49
Almost forgot. I see some bashing of WaPo for 'allowing such crap/drivel/extremest statements on their site'. A bit here, more elsewhere.
Horse poop. WaPo is being even handed in allowing people of all stripes here. They are not agreeing with any, just allowing free discussion. Something to do the 1st amendment, perhaps.
If there were not controversial offerings here, which have included religious conservatives, religious liberals, regardless of faith, as well as non-believers, what would these blogs be? BORING. None would contribute that had anything worth contributing.
As Gen. George Patton said, "If everyone in the room is in agreement, then somebody isn't thinking".
Arminius
November 4, 2007 4:11 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 4, 2007 16:11
E-Fav,
Yes, the liberal Christians can work with the non-believers, I believe. Possibly with the moderates too. How? I don't know. Perhaps the two of us are qualified to try to figure out how, since we have opposite paths. I came back to Christianity from non-belief, you did the reverse.
Henry James,
Thanks for the compliment. I really like the way you think and write. Yes, we are in agreement. Any person on this planet, regardless of faith or lack thereof can be just as moral as any other. Or not. Anyone who says differently has blinders on; I have seen moral people of all types with my own eyes.
Chris,
Please do not place the label 'Christian' on the KKK. They are no more true Christian than Al Qaida is true Islamic.
Arminius
November 4, 2007 3:56 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 4, 2007 15:56
The central problem with rigid Christian extremism is simple: it remove one of the main sources of social reform – the passion for freedom – in American history.
Michael Gerson is the author of the new book, "Heroic Conservatism." Gerson is a former Bush White House speech writer, hateful right-wing neocon, Christian extremist, misogynist, current Newsweek contributor and chief Washington Post propagandist for Dick Cheney.
November 4, 2007 3:37 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 4, 2007 15:37
If you look at Christian history before the Enlightenment (and the introduction of secularism) you will find that faith dictated that humans had no worth or natural rights. Kings were appointed by God himself and were to have absolute powers, mirroring the divine hierarchy of God in heaven.
It was secularism that taught slavery and torture were bad (there is no commandment against these.); That parents did not have the right to beat their children in an abusive, harmful way. That we should preserve the earth by polluting less and trying to make the world better for future generaitons.
Disagree? Show us the biblical passages.
Since most people are IGNORANT of history -- it is easy for you to make false statements with ease.
November 4, 2007 3:32 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 4, 2007 15:32
If you look at Christian history before the Enlightenment (and the introduction of secularism) you will find that faith dictated that humans had no worth or natural rights. Kings were appointed by God himself and were to have absolute powers, mirroring the divine hierarchy of God in heaven.
It was secularism that taught slavery and torture were bad (there is no commandment against these.); That parents did not have the right to beat their children in an abusive, harmful way. That we should preserve the earth by polluting less and trying to make the world better for future generaitons.
Disagree? Show us the biblical passages.
Since most people are IGNORANT of history -- sit is easy for you to make false statements with ease.
November 4, 2007 3:31 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 4, 2007 15:31
Mr. Gerson,
I was once a Christian -- but my studies of its history and origins convinced me it is mere superstition -- little different from belief in the old Greek Gods.
Many friends and acquaitances have implied they are more spiritual than me and that I should reconsider --
What a laugh. I need merely look at your actions (not your words) to see the truth.
You right wingers have created deaths and destruction in Iraq -- AND you have no moral qualms about it!!! Helping sick children is socialism to in your book too. Even Jesus wants to help the wealthy in your book.
One of my reasons for not wanting to backslid (believe in religion again) is the fear I might pronounce the "evil" you do under George Bush's leadership as --"good".
Ugh. I would have to turn off my brain for that and be a zomby. No thanks, I wish to make the world a better place for the next generation, not a worse one.
Note: I think there are some progressive Christians out there. I find them in the minority right now -- or at least, passive viz a viz the immoral right winger Christians.
November 4, 2007 3:20 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 4, 2007 15:20
Does anyone imagine for a second that Mr Gerson has the nuts to check in and read the comments that his column has inspired? I doubt it.
Only a few On Faith bloggers - Susan Jacoby, John Crossan et al - bother reading the comments of we lowly posters and responding to them. Most of the regular On Faith bloggers - Cal Thomas et al - treat their columns as a drive-by opportunity to spout RW and/or religious idiocies before heading off to spend their WaPo-earned fee at their local watering hole (and, no, you're not invited there, either).
It looks like Mr Gerson falls into this latter category. Why am I not surprised?
November 4, 2007 12:42 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 4, 2007 12:42
hi henry- i dont think thoreau held any religious beliefs- i know he was an abolitionist, and s darwin enthusiast.
i also didnt know who gerson is- and his argument isnt particularly compelling.
extreme secularism WAS the government of coercion in Turkey, until a few years ago with the election of tatip erdogan, who is an observant muslim, and the first PM to pray publily in office, and now abdullah gul has been elected as president, another actively practicing muslim (both with hijab wearing wives)
actually they have introduced a new focus on human rights, freedom of expression and religious freedom that was conspicuously absent under the militant secularist rule.
other than militancy, how would an all secular state enforce its rule of law?
you cant count on people to self govern themselves in any way (one of the actually positive functions of religion in society)
it definitely didnt work for 80 years in turkey.
the religious didnt go away, even though their religion was pretty much wiped out of their lives, disconnecting them from their past by changing the alphabet - a kid learning to read in 1925 couldnt read what was written in 1923!
im not sure what people mean when they say secularism.
many of the voices of the abolistionist movement were religious voices also, so thats not really a truism.
as a religious person, i never find it necessary to slam non-religious- its not really a competition
November 4, 2007 12:42 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 4, 2007 12:42
Mr Mark's citing the innocent blood on Gerson's hands coincides with this quote from Tim O;Brien's masterpiece The Things They Carried, which Pinsky quoted in today's NYT book review:
"a true war story is never moral. It does not instruct, nor encourage virtue, nor suggest proper models of human behavior, nor restrain men from doing the things that men have always done. If a story seems moral, do not believe it. If at the end of a war story you feel uplifted, or if you feel that some small bit of rectitude has been salvaged from the larger waste, then you have been made the victim of a very old and terrible lie."
All of Gerson's stories are War Stories, some literally, the others metaphorically.
When will we ever learn.
November 4, 2007 12:28 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 4, 2007 12:28
I find it very encouraging that Mr Gerson's column has not only been thoroughly dissected - it has also garnered no suppo