I'm not a medium, but I have used them. I do believe in them, however.

I am a financial advisor who manage millions of dollar and I am solidly grounded. I have a worldwide reputation as a money manager.

Now, to tell you what I think of psychics. Three times in my life I picked up feelings that some things were going to happen. Sure enough they did happen. I'm not talking about feelings about buying certain stocks or selling certain commodities. I'm talking about specific events and feelings that no five sense limiting person would ever be able to foresee. When they happened they made me less skeptical and more open.

I even explored the possibility of developing these "skills" that I didn't know I had. After researching it for a while I decided my life and fate was destined to make money, not make predictions of a psychic nature. Of course, in a limited fashion I do apply some timing to what I do; if you call the use of cycles to be psychic then in a way I am. Cycles, however, are grounded in natural laws, not nebulous feelings and impressions that psychics use.

So, I believe in the validity of GOOD psychics. Since we are dealing in an area that is very hard to quantify, most psychics are bad ones because they are "wannabees" and not authentic ones. Just like anything in life you must work at finding good professionals to use. Unfortunately, good psychics have more off days than on days. It's the nature of their work. They are reliant on what is being "transmitted" so to speak, from the other side. If there aren't any transmissions, there's nothing to work with. To fault them with bad calls, etc, when nothing is being transmitted is to place fault for the wrong reasons.

There, I've had my say. You will certainly believe in psychic phenomena when it happens to you. You remain a skeptic till you can have that experience.

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Dear Sally,

In my commenting on the posts that I have viewed here, I don't know where to begin! I am appalled at the unfeeling posts that I have read! I simply feel that I must write something here in defense of, and on the behalf of several of those who I know personally and believe to be, "reputable" Mediums. I also wish to say something in defense of and on the behalf of Gigi Bloom for whatever her reasons were for going to see the Medium she saw, and to speak a little about the outcome of that visit.

And, I'll write this now and immediately, Sally, in defense of you and on your behalf.

In my reading of your article, Sally, and in "my" understanding of it—(similar to many human beings) your article was “filtered” through my own life's experiences. And (my) judgments about it were made following (as with any given subject)--which, as such, in the end becomes "my perception" according to my "subjective" view (of it). And I want you to know, Sally, that…

I felt that you neither endorsed, nor prohibited one's "Free Will" choice of going to a Medium though you’ve certainly met your detractors and some seemingly angry accusers of doing so in this forum!

I feel for you for the wrath, anger and what I view as sheer hostility thrown your way in more than a few of the posts (and I read them all!)! This not only has come your way, Sally, but also towards your friend Gigi who is obviously in pain over the loss of her son.

My Gosh, I just have to say! No wonder Journalists in the “Real World” news seem afraid to write about subjects of this sort! God forbid a journalist from a reputable newspaper chooses to write an article about “ The Possibility of Life After Death” or “Are There Those Who Can and Do Indeed Communicate with the Deceased”, or “ People’s Faith and Belief in Spiritual or Paranormal Experiences”, etc, etc!
Just look at the posts and the anger Sally and Gigi received for writing about the subject. And despite all the very passionate responses and rancor not one person was willing to considered that there might be some truth to it and value to many in learning more about it.

Personally, I wouldn’t mind reading a few (more) articles with captions like those, but then, I am a spiritually curious type and perhaps a more “open” person to any concepts and thoughts that might challenge my understanding, beliefs, perceptions and even my fears. And, even though I may not agree with everything that is shared with me, that I might read, I’m sure in knowing myself that I am still capable of learning a thing or two about any given subject.

What I am trying to get across here is that if there is one thing that I have learned in living my life (for lo these many years) on this crazy planet (and I won’t tell those reading this post how many years that is!), it is that I REALLY DON'T KNOW MUCH-- in any “for certain” kind of way, about a myriad of subjects!

With one exception, I know me! I know the person I am! My personality is such that a part of my behaviour towards other people is almost always empathetic and compassionate where other people's feelings are concerned. Even if they are not so with me. It's something that takes practice but is always a worthwhile endevor in trying to get good at! That does not mean that I do not have (my) opinions on things as a human being living on this great planet do. BUT, I don't feel that my opinions, perceptions, and what I think should be agreed with by every other person to the degree that I push it on them. Everyone has free will! I am not the type to be force anyone to think like me, we're all different and this is one of the things that make us a wonderful species! We have our own thoughts, likes, dislikes and opinions to share with eachother. And thoughts and opinons about things are likely to change as we learn, grow, and mature... there is really no reason to be pushy and arrogant in “how” we share our thoughts, feelings and opinions.

Again, I reiterate; what I might think about any given subject (How I perceive it!) has the possibility of changing the more I learn! And wouldn’t at least some of you who posted such opinionated, mean spiritited, derogatory comments to Sally (and also to Gigi) about her choice to see a medium, and the things that were said about Mediums agree that my statement above might just possibly be applicable to you as well as you grow and learn?

I viewed your article, Sally, as not only unbiased, non-judgemental, and from a journalistic perspective. But I feel that you also wrote from the perspective of a concerned and caring friend (of Gigi)! Someone you know well who went to the Medium specifically for the purpose, and in the hopes of gaining some sense of peace and comfort during the stages of grief that she and one can, and most certainly does, go through after losing a “loved one”. Especially a child.

Don’t we all as humans feel the pain and grief in our loss of ANY of our loved ones! But most especially we grieve as parents for the loss of any of our children (To most mothers, no matter what the child's age, they are still our "Baby"!) For goodness sake, all people share the feelings of grief and bereavement when they lose someone they loved! If we didn't we wouldn't be "Human"! I think that in discussing this from an intellectual point of view and also a scientific one (though I am not a Scientist myself), we most probably can agree, that as human beings we also share other human characteristics. Such as emotions and feelings. These characteristics of Human Behaviour (Feelings and emotions) are some of the things that we all share that makes us unique.

And the ability to "feel" their pain-- and to be empathetic and compassionate towards them and those who might be feeling the pain of loss-- is what I think should have been shown to Gigi and Sally!

Think what you want, but couldn't you have been softer in your approach in sharing your thoughts and opinions? Maybe a little less threatening, less hostile words of sympathy for Gigi's pain might have been considered no matter what she chose to do. Yes!

Well, that's my opinion. You may, of course, take it or leave it but at least I put it forth to you in a different manner than so many others here did not. I say, and it's my opinion also, t SHAME ON YOU who weren't thinking morer kindly for each of these ladies.

As for Mediums, I've known spectacular mediums who shocked me with their accuracy. I've known some who didn't at all validate any experience I'd ever had. I do not feel that all Mediums are bad, nor good, just simply better or worse as with any other profession.

Thanks for reading! If you made it all the way through, I congratulate you. I hope maybe some learned something here and will reflect upon some of what I've shared. If you don't or didn't that's your choice, I won't be mad at you for it!

God bless each of you! I have faith in you!

Dear Sally,

In my commenting on the posts that I have viewed here, I don't know where to begin! I am appalled at the unfeeling posts that I have read! I simply feel that I must write something here in defense of, and on the behalf of several of those who I know personally and believe to be, "reputable" Mediums. I also wish to say something in defense of and on the behalf of Gigi Bloom for whatever her reasons were for going to see the Medium she saw, and to speak a little about the outcome of that visit.

And, I'll write this now and immediately, Sally, in defense of you and on your behalf.

In my reading of your article, Sally, and in "my" understanding of it—(similar to many human beings) your article was “filtered” through my own life's experiences. And (my) judgments about it were made following (as with any given subject)--which, as such, in the end becomes "my perception" according to my "subjective" view (of it). And I want you to know, Sally, that…

I felt that you neither endorsed, nor prohibited one's "Free Will" choice of going to a Medium though you’ve certainly met your detractors and some seemingly angry accusers of doing so in this forum!

I feel for you for the wrath, anger and what I view as sheer hostility thrown your way in more than a few of the posts (and I read them all!)! This not only has come your way, Sally, but also towards your friend Gigi who is obviously in pain over the loss of her son.

My Gosh, I just have to say! No wonder Journalists in the “Real World” news seem afraid to write about subjects of this sort! God forbid a journalist from a reputable newspaper chooses to write an article about “ The Possibility of Life After Death” or “Are There Those Who Can and Do Indeed Communicate with the Deceased”, or “ People’s Faith and Belief in Spiritual or Paranormal Experiences”, etc, etc!
Just look at the posts and the anger Sally and Gigi received for writing about the subject. And despite all the very passionate responses and rancor not one person was willing to considered that there might be some truth to it and value to many in learning more about it.

Personally, I wouldn’t mind reading a few (more) articles with captions like those, but then, I am a spiritually curious type and perhaps a more “open” person to any concepts and thoughts that might challenge my understanding, beliefs, perceptions and even my fears. And, even though I may not agree with everything that is shared with me, that I might read, I’m sure in knowing myself that I am still capable of learning a thing or two about any given subject.

What I am trying to get across here is that if there is one thing that I have learned in living my life (for lo these many years) on this crazy planet (and I won’t tell those reading this post how many years that is!), it is that I REALLY DON'T KNOW MUCH-- in any “for certain” kind of way, about a myriad of subjects!

With one exception, I know me! I know the person I am! My personality is such that a part of my behaviour towards other people is almost always empathetic and compassionate where other people's feelings are concerned. Even if they are not so with me. It's something that takes practice but is always a worthwhile endevor in trying to get good at! That does not mean that I do not have (my) opinions on things as a human being living on this great planet do. BUT, I don't feel that my opinions, perceptions, and what I think should be agreed with by every other person to the degree that I push it on them. Everyone has free will! I am not the type to be force anyone to think like me, we're all different and this is one of the things that make us a wonderful species! We have our own thoughts, likes, dislikes and opinions to share with eachother. And thoughts and opinons about things are likely to change as we learn, grow, and mature... there is really no reason to be pushy and arrogant in “how” we share our thoughts, feelings and opinions.

Again, I reiterate; what I might think about any given subject (How I perceive it!) has the possibility of changing the more I learn! And wouldn’t at least some of you who posted such opinionated, mean spiritited, derogatory comments to Sally (and also to Gigi) about her choice to see a medium, and the things that were said about Mediums agree that my statement above might just possibly be applicable to you as well as you grow and learn?

I viewed your article, Sally, as not only unbiased, non-judgemental, and from a journalistic perspective. But I feel that you also wrote from the perspective of a concerned and caring friend (of Gigi)! Someone you know well who went to the Medium specifically for the purpose, and in the hopes of gaining some sense of peace and comfort during the stages of grief that she and one can, and most certainly does, go through after losing a “loved one”. Especially a child.

Don’t we all as humans feel the pain and grief in our loss of ANY of our loved ones! But most especially we grieve as parents for the loss of any of our children (To most mothers, no matter what the child's age, they are still our "Baby"!) For goodness sake, all people share the feelings of grief and bereavement when they lose someone they loved! If we didn't we wouldn't be "Human"! I think that in discussing this from an intellectual point of view and also a scientific one (though I am not a Scientist myself), we most probably can agree, that as human beings we also share other human characteristics. Such as emotions and feelings. These characteristics of Human Behaviour (Feelings and emotions) are some of the things that we all share that makes us unique.

And the ability to "feel" their pain-- and to be empathetic and compassionate towards them and those who might be feeling the pain of loss-- is what I think should have been shown to Gigi and Sally!

Think what you want, but couldn't you have been softer in your approach in sharing your thoughts and opinions? Maybe a little less threatening, less hostile words of sympathy for Gigi's pain might have been considered no matter what she chose to do. Yes!

Well, that's my opinion. You may, of course, take it or leave it but at least I put it forth to you in a different manner than so many others here did not. I say, and it's my opinion also, t SHAME ON YOU who weren't thinking morer kindly for each of these ladies.

As for Mediums, I've known spectacular mediums who shocked me with their accuracy. I've known some who didn't at all validate any experience I'd ever had. I do not feel that all Mediums are bad, nor good, just simply better or worse as with any other profession.

Thanks for reading! If you made it all the way through, I congratulate you. I hope maybe some learned something here and will reflect upon some of what I've shared. If you don't or didn't that's your choice, I won't be mad at you for it!

God bless each of you! I have faith in you!

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what a wonderful piece! and peace!

i keep watching and waiting for my mother. i know one day, she'll come to me.

tell your boy, gina needs her mom. ;)

thanks, and again, a wonderful piece.

what a wonderful piece! and peace!

i keep watching and waiting for my mother. i know one day, she'll come to me.

tell your boy, gina needs her mom. ;)

thanks, and again, a wonderful piece.

what a wonderful piece! and peace!

i keep watching and waiting for my mother. i know one day, she'll come to me.

tell your boy, gina needs her mom. ;)

thanks, and again, a wonderful piece.

Georgianna
I just happenned to read your letter on line. I to have been searching and wanting to die. My Mother passed away on October 11th, and my cousin almost had to pull me off of her to let the EMT's take her body. I have a two year old son, so I know it is not my time, but the grief is almost unbearable.
I was just interested in what authors you were talking about. I had also been interested in finding a medium, but my familly thinks I am crazy, and the few people I know who are healers have told me to let her go on her journey so her soul will heal. I desperately want to do the right thing, but she lived with me, and looking at everything we shared is like a knife in the heart every day.
Any information you wish to share would be greately appreciated.

Thanks, Kelly, for posting that. It's sort of how I feel.

Logic isn't the most effective immediate antidote to some extreme life situations.

I think there are some assumptions being made here about how once the person in grief finds out the truth that there is no afterlife, they will be even further devastated - that it is merely delaying the grief. I disagree with that based on personal experience. In a way, it can be a "buffer" to help the person slowly accept the truth.

I lost someone almost 2 years ago who was so special to me I felt I would never smile again. I wanted to lay down and simply die of a broken heart. I didn't see the point to continuing on with life. To assauge my grief I read everything I could about the afterlife and I allowed myself to believe it. It was all that kept me going. OK so I knew that deep down I probably didn't really believe it but as long as I could buy into it superficially and feel like I beleived it, it got me thru the day.

However as we all know, time is a great natural healer. And so as time passes and I am learning to live without my boy (will never "get over" him), I am slowly able to accept my boy is truly gone. And at some point, started reading the "other side" of the view of afterlife - the skeptics view. Yes, some skeptics go too far and yes some are hypocritical - just like any other group of people. And some are busybodies who in my opinion go a little far in "protecting" the public and seem to forget adults have a right to their own choices. But they are also essential in uncovering the Sylvia Browne's of this world and ensuring proper controls are in place for the psi experiments - or exposing when they are not.

I also went to a "communicator" to contact my beloved. I felt they were rather accurate and some things were even a little startling. However after dissecting the session and putting a lot of thought into it, I contend it could have been pulled off by clever cold reading. But I do beleive the communicator truly felt they were making contact. And I have no regrets about the $100 I spent on it and would do it again in a similair situation.

So yes I am coming back to where I am regaining logic and reasoning in my life. But I have no regrets about allowing myself to beleive differently for awhile. I truly believe it was the only way I could cope. I admit I am probably a weak person to have needed that, but for me using a temporary belief in the afterlife as a "band-aid" to be able to get thru the coming days helped. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Anonymous, if your "challenge" consisted solely of telling a reporter to tell Randi... well, no wonder he didn't bother responding to you! Psychics wishing to accept Randi's challenge must agree to be tested under precisely controlled conditions to insure there's no possibility of cheating. Very few are willing to do so -- but those who have agreed have all failed.

Georgianna - I can only assume the last few days have been a roller coaster for you - posting this essay, receiving kind support and harsh criticism - sometimes from the same person. It would make anyone vulnerable and you're already vulnerable because of your son's death.

I'd like you to consider seeing a good psychotherapist - someone who specializes in grief issues. Get referrals from people you trust. Make sure the therapists are fully credentialed - it doesn't matter if they are MD, Ph.D or MSW - as long as they're experienced, credentialed licenced from the state and come highly recommended.

I told the reporter for a major news network to tell Mr. Randi that I would challenge him to a reading and to bring the attache case with the million dollars and the reporter who interviewed me spoke to him and said that "Amazing Randi" DECLINED my offer.

Lastly, he's in the same exact news segment I am in, with his million dollar offer and this is after the reporter mentioned my offer to him. He's all talk and no action just looking for his 15 minutes of fame.

You people need to write to him and ask him why everytime a psychic or medium is willing to do a reading for him, he declines yet continues this challenge like an informercial.

I will say there are many people who claim to be psychics and Mediums and many of them
sadly do take advantage of people and it is spiritually wrong. We all have to be responsibile for our thoughts,actions and deeds.

There are so called "good" & "bad" by the terms we use as a society here on Earth in every aspect of life, careers, families so forth and so on not just pertaining to my work. Look outside of the box just as the comment from Dogs Best Friend wrote.

I am thinking about Jesus and all the good works he did and people persecuted him calling his works blasphemous and since then people have come to accept him as "The Chosen One". By the way, he was A Prophet, A Healer, A Rabbi & A Teacher. He was all about loving unconditionally without judgement and I do the same for those I work with. I in no way am comparing myself to Jesus but we all have Jesus in our hearts if we truly want him there and learn from him.

In Light...

Do you suppose it's safe to assume that when "Anonymous" "challenged him [James Randi] back" that "Anonymous" was unable or unwilling to meet some one or more of the fairly clear conditions of the challenge rules?

I don't particularly worship Randi (although I really liked his book "The Mask of Nostradamus") but I believe that the "Amazing" part of his moniker is merely a jab at the folks in the spirit/magic/occult business who DO sometimes use such appellations, as well as being a nod toward the fact that he's a reasonably accomplished stage magician himself.

And this claim coming from "Anonymous" is worth...? Absolutely zero. Tell us who you are and what the challenge was and THEN we'll have some basis for judging your claim.

James Randi challenged me for this million dollars in a TV interview & when I challenged him back he declined a session with me. And anyone who uses a verb such as "amazing" before their name isn't so amazing!

Dear Giorgianna -

I appreciate your staying in this discussion. I know it can be difficult. Set aside your personal situation, no one likes to be attacked for their views. Stick around here long enough, and like me, you'll wear such attacks as a badge of honor.

I can only speak for myself, but as a critic of mediums, I go by what I have learned of them in the past. Your experience - far from being unique - is the norm.

In your case, it starts with your being predisposed to believe in an afterlife, a fact you reveal when you say you contemplated suicide because you "wanted to be with Justin." Having two kids myself, I can't quite comprehend a grief so overwhelming that I would contemplate suicide if I were to lose one of them, thereby abandoning the other, but that's just me. But what I can say with some certainty is that I wouldn't believe that my death would reunite me with that child in some afterlife. My feeling would be that my wife and surviving child had just had their grief compounded by another senseless and purposeless death.

I believe this predisposition is an important factor in this experience for you, possibly THE factor driving your trip to the medium. You're looking not only for confirmation that your son's spirit lives on, but for confirmation of the afterlife at all. These are things that I can pick up from you on this blog. Is it any wonder a medium could pick up on this and use it to convince you he had some connection to the afterlife?

As far as the always-smoking tall guy with big ears, that phrase perfectly describes BOTH of my grandfathers and could also describe my dad except that he wasn't thin. BTW - older people often have ears that look "big" when compared to the proportions of their skulls. Hair loss alone can make ears appear to be over-sized. The medium's description is perfectly suited to millions of older men who chain smoke, especially those who smoke as a weight-control habit.

As far as you mother's death: Rebecca hit this right on the nose. You're just not seeing it. Go back and read her analysis. And, again, the "fly on the wall" statement is hardly unique. You're the one reading the uniqueness of your situation into an extremely common concept.

All things considered, the medium did his "job" - you walked away happy, believing something unique had happened to you, something so spiritual that you felt the urge to write about it on this blog. To the medium, he simply opened his usual bag of tricks, pointed you in a direction you already wished to go and let you fill in the blanks.

Again, I wish you luck in dealing with this horrible event in your life.

BTW - I hope you don't consider that I'm "dishing out" anything here.

Dear Rebecca and Mr. Mark:

I said I wouldn't blog here anymore, but I had to look one more time. I'm glad I did.

You said, Rebecca, that Glenn was just sort of schoozing me, or something, when he saw Justin taking a bow and accepting what looked like an Emmy award. The fact is, Justin had posthumously won the Best Director Award after one of his short films was shown at a prominent New York Film Festival in July.

I had forgotten to mention that.

Also, you say Glenn assumed my mother was dead, because I'm middle-aged. But, as I've said before, he had no idea she'd died when I was six--this is something no one ever assumes---and the image he got was perfect---the fly on the wall all my life.

He had a lot of lucky hits, Rebecca. I'm sorry, but the tall thin guy smoking a lot with big ears---come on. That's no generalization. And neither is the exactly yay-high child with the unusually spelled name.

No, I don't suppose they drink beer over there---but Justin was being humorous. I've read that generally, the spirits are. I've read that they say things like that just to show us who they are.

As for Glenn not knowing Justin's name or who he exactly is---mediums aren't suppoed to. They're not even really psychic. They simply see the spirits. You see people all the time...do you know their names or who they are???

And to those of you who say I'm attacking---PUH--LEASE. It's ONLY because I'VE been attacked so much, as "weak", "naive", crazed by grief, etc. If you're going to dish it out, you'd better know how to take it.

Gigi

Rebecca - Ditto Bill and Mr Mark. I bet a lot of people reading your deconstruction will get it.

When people are just as open to the house of cards that religion is based on, we'll be making some real progress.

Maybe you could address that on your website? Maybe do a similar deconstruction with religious belief? The idea just came to me - in a flash - no details -- but I bet you could fill them in.

Bill writes:

"Just what we need is the Washington Post giving tacit approval to still more irrationality. I firmly expect the next subject to be dealt with in "On Faith" to be alien abductions."

Not to be paranoid, but I wonder if the WAPO is deliberately trying to drive off the rationalists who post on this blog by hosting such inane topics and discussions. Look at any topic and the highest response counts are always to the columns written by the atheists/non-believers. They also feature the most-engaging and engaged discussions. And, they are always won in a landslide by the rationalists whose debating acumen generally mops the floor with the posts by the religionists.

How can all that be good for a blog that is supposedly a place to discuss faith, not necessarily the lack thereof?

Yes, the recent topics are enough to make one throw up one's hands and dive into the nearest bottle of spirits. Then again, I thought I had seen all the lunacy I ever needed to see until THIS particular topic reared its head.

Maybe this is turning into THE place to experience things unimagined...at least, unimagined in a major newspaper.

Rebecca,

Nice job. Our country's going down the tubes because we have a faith based foreign policy, faith based economic policy, faith based approach to medicine, etc. Just what we need is the Washington Post giving tacit approval to still more irrationality. I firmly expect the next subject to be dealt with in "On Faith" to be alien abductions.

Rebecca -

Thanks for deconstructing that cold reading. You show in good detail the way a "psychic" uses general statements to draw out specific information from their mark with the mark imagining the info came from the psychic.

Georgianna took me to task for seizing on the German Shepherd issue in this reading. I did so because it was obvious and I didn't have time to do an extensive review as did you. I think your analysis shows that the same deception used in the German Shepherd remarks is used throughout the process. As you point out, the medium stuck with the German Shepherd because he knew there was a high probability that the mark would have had some contact with a GS, and this particular mark filled in the blank, even though she had to think back decades in her past to do so.

Now, if the medium had fixated on, say, an Otterhound (ie: the rarest breed found in the USA) and he had had an instant hit, that might give one pause. But it never works that way with mediums, does it?

Good write up Rebecca! Obviously it would be great if we had access to the full transcript of the tape, but you did a very good job with what was made available.

If anyone's interested, I've created an analysis of the cold reading technique used by Glenn Klausner, based on the information Gigi provided about her session with him.

It's here:
http://www.rebeccahartong.net/?p=1552

“For the "goats" (nonbelievers in parapsychology):”

Please refrain from personal attacks on those who do not share your beliefs.

“Here's another take on your beloved Randi:”

I do not love Randi, please get your facts straight.

"...However, the bias of people like Randi and the organization of skeptics that calls itself Psicop, is worrying for another reason. These are people who, while claiming to be scientists, are actually approaching the entire subject with a deep
bias that has nothing to do with Science whatsoever.”

Perhaps the person who wrote this should learn to check their facts. It was not “Psicop” it was “Csicop” or “Committee for Skeptical Inquiry of Claims of the Paranormal.”

Also, James Randi never claimed, as far as I’m aware, to be a scientist.

“They are skeptical, because they are skeptical. That's all. They are believers in "Disbelief". It's just the opposite end of the spectrum of Belief. That's all.”

They’re skeptical because they have been provided no evidence for the existence of the paranormal.

“There is no scientific reason for it whatsoever. While they pretend to be scientific, their approach is more akin to a religious dogma; that of treating Science like a religion. It is
often called "Scientism" for this reason.”

Again, the world of science, evidence is required for theories. There is no evidence for the existence of the paranormal.

“They might claim that there is no proof that psychic phenomena exist. Yet, it can be stated with equal validity that there is no proof that they do NOT. That is a totally equivalent statement. As we have seen earlier, Science cannot PROVE a negative statement. It can only talk about probabilities and likelihood. And, as we have discussed, many psychic manifestations are intrinsically rare or fragile in their very essence.”

Which is why in Randi’s challenge he tests people who make specific claims. Such as Glenn Klausner, who claims he can talk to the deceased.

Also, are we to believe that Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, Leprchauns, and other beings exist without any evidence?

“Like any good evangelical, these skeptics like Randi and Psicop have a hidden agenda in "proving" that the world functions the way they think it does. Frankly, a major motivation is FEAR. More
people than would like to admit it are terrified of the possibility of psychic phenomena. What if someone really COULD read your mind? Every dirty little secret. What if YOU too could
develop psychic powers?”

I am not terrified of psychic powers because there is no evidence that such a thing exists. Also, just a reminder, it's not "Psicop."

“Just imagine what sort of world THAT would be!

Hardly the boringly predictable,ltra-conservative, Newtonian "scientific" universe that these people inhabit. For them, it's a possibility too terrible to contemplate.”

Only a mind with limited imagination would consider the world we live in to be boring and without wonder.

“In conclusion , it's vital not to be too credulous in examining a psychic phenomenon, or in rushing to accept the claims of the"professional" investigators in this field. Nevertheless, we must also be extremely wary of the skeptics who, while pretending to be scientific, are often better viewed as ideological fanatics than even mediocre scientists."

In other words, you want to sound like you’re being somewhat skeptical to appeal to those who may have their doubts about psychic phenomena, but reject skeptics who demand evidence. That’s like trying to have your cake and eat it too.

Norrie: while it is perfectly OK to simply invoke faith as support for anything (it is not for mortals to ever prove or disprove the existence of any subject of pure faith), it is not legitimate to fall for the circular babble you quote. "They can't disprove it" is not a criticism of a scientist. Scientists can't disprove anything the proponents of which can invoke a faith based response to any evidence of non existence (it's so ephemeral that existint tests can't detect it). Scientists can only rebut attempts at evidence based support for same by debunking same, which they have done for centuries. Believe what you will, but don't do so because you think what you have read is persuasive or scientific. It is lousy logic and pathetic science - but salesmanship of the first order.

Norrie: while it is perfectly OK to simply invoke faith as support for anything (it is not for mortals to ever prove or disprove the existence of any subject of pure faith), it is not legitimate to fall for the circular babble you quote. "They can't disprove it" is not a criticism of a scientist. Scientists can't disprove anything the proponents of which can invoke a faith based response to any evidence of non existence (it's so ephemeral that existint tests can't detect it). Scientists can only rebut attempts at evidence based support for same by debunking same, which they have done for centuries. Believe what you will, but don't do so because you think what you have read is persuasive or scientific. It is lousy logic and pathetic science - but salesmanship of the first order.

For the "goats" (nonbelievers in parapsychology):

Here's another take on your beloved Randi:

"...However, the bias of people like Randi and the organization of
skeptics that calls itself Psicop, is worrying for another
reason. These are people who, while claiming to be scientists,
are actually approaching the entire subject with a deep
bias that has nothing to do with Science whatsoever.

They are skeptical, because they are skeptical. That's all. They
are believers in "Disbelief". It's just the opposite end of the
spectrum of Belief. That's all.

There is no scientific reason for it whatsoever. While they
pretend to be scientific, their approach is more akin to a
religious dogma; that of treating Science like a religion. It is
often called "Scientism" for this reason.

They might claim that there is no proof that psychic phenomena
exist. Yet, it can be stated with equal validity that there is
no proof that they do NOT. That is a totally equivalent
statement. As we have seen earlier, Science cannot PROVE a
negative statement. It can only talk about probabilities and
likelihood. And, as we have discussed, many psychic manifestations
are intrinsically rare or fragile in their very essence.

Like any good evangelical, these skeptics like Randi and Psicop
have a hidden agenda in "proving" that the world functions the
way they think it does. Frankly, a major motivation is FEAR. More
people than would like to admit it are terrified of the
possibility of psychic phenomena. What if someone really COULD
read your mind? Every dirty little secret. What if YOU too could
develop psychic powers?

Just imagine what sort of world THAT would be!

Hardly the boringly predictable, ultra-conservative, Newtonian
"scientific" universe that these people inhabit. For them, it's a
possibility too terrible to contemplate.

In conclusion , it's vital not to be too credulous in examining a
psychic phenomenon, or in rushing to accept the claims of the
"professional" investigators in this field. Nevertheless, we
must also be extremely wary of the skeptics who, while
pretending to be scientific, are often better viewed as
ideological fanatics than even mediocre scientists."

Copyright 2006 Asoka Selvarajah. All Rights Reserved.

Jozevz:

Do you post anything that makes sense?

“Do yourself a favor and learn to read something thoroughly, and not see just what you want to see. You missed just about everything. You jumped onto the German shepherd thing like a rabid dog---it was the only decent point you could make---and you generalized about the beer, missing the beauty of what actually happened. You missed the uncle, the niece, and everything else...you remind me of a religios fanatic or something.”

Religious fanatic? I read through Mr. Mark’s message several times and no where does it read like it was written by a religious fanatic. He calmly laid out his points, noting that the German Sheppard is one of the most popular breeds of dog in America, and that it is common for people in their 20’s to be associated with beer. None of the skeptics here are angry/mad with you. We all sympathize with the pain of losing someone very close to us.

That is why it is all the more heartbreaking for us to see you waste money on a man who has no more contact with the deceased than you or I.

“I'm done with this blog. If you respond, I won't see it. I've had enough of you tunnel-visioned people. Sure there are fakes out there...but you can't handle the truth...which is that some of the mediums are not fake.”

I’m sorry you feel you must leave this blog. No one here is attacking or criticizing you. We’re attacking the psychics/mediums whom prey on grieving and vulnerable persons.

However, if you feel that some psychics are real, perhaps you can convince them to take the James Randi challenge and win $1,000,000. Surely they would want the publicity and money that comes from establishing that the paranormal is real.

“It would just kill you to wrap your mind around that possibility for one second, wouldn't it?”

It doesn’t kill me to consider the possibility that psychics could be real. In fact, I once believed they were. However, after research, and careful study, I came to realize that what psychics/mediums do is not distinguishable from cold reading. They throw out many guesses and rely on the person to supply the answers.

After all, psychics do not give out the specific names of lost loved ones. They rely on techniques such as “I’m feeling that someone with a ‘Ja’ or a “Jay” sound is coming through. Such as a ‘Jared’ or ‘Jaime.’” Or they say “I’m seeing someone who is a grandmother figure coming through.”

They don’t say “Your grandmother Jaime, who had a birthday on April 29, 1918, is coming through to me.”

If these people could really talk to the dead, you’d think they’d be able to supply EXACT information.

“Cowards.”

I understand you are grieving, but that does not give you leave to resort to personal attacks.

Dear Norrie -

Your "A REALITY" is not a slice of reality, it is a slice of fantasy.

It's very difficult to hold an intelligent conversation with people who invent meanings for words that don't exist. Your belief in paranormal things in no way qualifies such things as "a" reality.

By your measure, Santa Claus and fairies are also "a reality."

DBF wrote:

"Wouldn't you think its easier to exhibit love than to hate."

Did you ever stop to think that those of us who point out the fraud of mediums are doing so out of something besides hate?

BTW - thanks for the laundry list of bad people who populate our world, but you left out the mediums.

Mr. Mark,

I wrote:

"Turbocramb and Mr. Mark,

"I'm afraid you two "goats" (and all the other "goats" on this thread) are butting your heads fruitlessly against a reality you won't let yourselves see."

You then wrote:

"Dear Norrie -

"Please check the dictionary for the definition of the word "reality." Then, get back to me."

Well, I'm back, and I don't need a dictionary.

"REALITY" is the total of things as they actually are.

Note that I spoke of "A REALITY", not "REALITY".

"A REALITY" is a small slice of REALITY, which is what you get when you look at reality through a particular prism, in this case the prism of "paranormal events".

It's the reality of paranormal events that you are blind to.

As per the Blake poem set out above, your sands of "rationality" have blown back into your eves and blinded you to the existence of the paranormal.

Actually, of course, "the paranormal" is simply normal happenings that we can't yet explain with today's science.

All good wishes to you.

Att B L O O M @ TenThirty_One PM:

gOOD RIDDENCE LIKE_WISE!

HAOOY: "Day Of The Dead"

Please see "WIKIPEDIA DOT COM AT"

MEMENTO MORI & DAY OF THE DEAD respectfully! Ya Ya!

Huggs n kisses to ALL good ECLATi_Ons! Never the Offs!

Happy Every day!

REMEMBER Siatar(s) & Brethren(s) : WE NEVER WAS CREATED NOR CAN WE EVER BE DESTROYED! Just try to be nice & never deliberateley knock the "Light of Love" out of someones frontal+lobe! AKA knockig out the IMMORTAL HEURISTICao (aka Eternal Spirit)!

(((( Peace_Love_Rock_n_Roll_n_Rap Mitt_ROMNEY for Prez Thank You ALL! )))))))))))))))))))

To all of you attacking Gigi as well as the Psychic Medium. Everyone has the right to their opinion but I have this question for each of you. Do you truly know GOD or Jesus? By the posts I've read I tend to think some of you don't know. Jesus did not preach the choir and tell people if you don't believe in him you're going to hell. He loved everyone as an equal to him without judgement.

Dogs are amazing. They are non- judgemental. Only if people lived by the examples of dogs.

It seems so many people have a constipation of ideas and a diarreah of the mouth.
Living is easier with eyes closed. Misunderstanding is all you will see. Hopefully you will never know what its like to have lost a child no matter how they passed away.

I think you all need to take a deeper look at the World you live in and the deep rooted issues you have inside of you or that has been instilled and drilled in to you.

Look at the paparazzi who make a living off of hounding people like the late Princess Diana and many other celebrities making money especially off of a deceased person.

Look at the Entertainment Industry(TV/Film/Music) that pollutes the minds of so many with shows like Jerry Springer or the idiotic reality shows that do nothing positive for society. This is what you pay a cable bill for? Do you speak out about it. I highly doubt it.

Look at our Government who have sent our sons and daughters off to fight a war for what... Oil?
Do you say NO to war as oppose to anti-war.
Look at the Banks, Mortgage Brokers, Realtors, Insurance Agents who rip people off when their homes are destroyed in Hurricanes. This happens to be an actual fact. There are frauds in many occupations. Look at the Priests who molest children. People have scam artists right in their own family who will sell their own family member out for crack.

So whether someone like Gigi went to a Clergy person, Therapist or Psychic Medium and got some comfort and healing that's all that matters.

Many Doctors are frauds. Did you know that they get kick backs from giving you prescription drugs? I bet you didn't know that. To keeping people medicated on harmful drugs that eventually shut down major organs- what do you say to that?
Putting a bandaid on someone's problem is not the answer to healing.

What gives a Doctor the right to tell a patient with Cancer that they have 30 days to live? Who are they to play GOD and decide someone's fate?

When you go to a house of worship, you will see the people who work there going up and down the aisle collecting money. Does the money go to mainting the house of worship or in someone's hands?

You have rising gas prices and yet people do nothing about it with the Government. You let the Government dictate to you when you are the tax payer and live in the USA.. land of the free.

Wouldn't you think its easier to exhibit love than to hate. Energy always comes back to you like a mirror reflection in either form and the latter tends to cause dis-ease in you.

I can go on and on about this but I think I made my point clear.

To all of you attacking Gigi as well as the Psychic Medium. Everyone has the right to their opinion but I have this question for each of you. Do you truly know GOD or Jesus? By the posts I've read I tend to think some of you don't know. Jesus did not preach the choir and tell people if you don't believe in him you're going to hell. He loved everyone as an equal to him without judgement.

Dogs are amazing. They are non- judgemental. Only if people lived by the examples of dogs.

It seems so many people have a constipation of ideas and a diarreah of the mouth.
Living is easier with eyes closed. Misunderstanding is all you will see. Hopefully you will never know what its like to have lost a child no matter how they passed away.

I think you all need to take a deeper look at the World you live in and the deep rooted issues you have inside of you or that has been instilled and drilled in to you.

Look at the paparazzi who make a living off of hounding people like the late Princess Diana and many other celebrities making money especially off of a deceased person.

Look at the Entertainment Industry(TV/Film/Music) that pollutes the minds of so many with shows like Jerry Springer or the idiotic reality shows that do nothing positive for society. This is what you pay a cable bill for? Do you speak out about it. I highly doubt it.

Look at our Government who have sent our sons and daughters off to fight a war for what... Oil?
Do you say NO to war as oppose to anti-war.
Look at the Banks, Mortgage Brokers, Realtors, Insurance Agents who rip people off when their homes are destroyed in Hurricanes. This happens to be an actual fact. There are frauds in many occupations. Look at the Priests who molest children. People have scam artists right in their own family who will sell their own family member out for crack.

So whether someone like Gigi went to a Clergy person, Therapist or Psychic Medium and got some comfort and healing that's all that matters.

Many Doctors are frauds. Did you know that they get kick backs from giving you prescription drugs? I bet you didn't know that. To keeping people medicated on harmful drugs that eventually shut down major organs- what do you say to that?
Putting a bandaid on someone's problem is not the answer to healing.

What gives a Doctor the right to tell a patient with Cancer that they have 30 days to live? Who are they to play GOD and decide someone's fate?

When you go to a house of worship, you will see the people who work there going up and down the aisle collecting money. Does the money go to mainting the house of worship or in someone's hands?

You have rising gas prices and yet people do nothing about it with the Government. You let the Government dictate to you when you are the tax payer and live in the USA.. land of the free.

Wouldn't you think its easier to exhibit love than to hate. Energy always comes back to you like a mirror reflection in either form and the latter tends to cause dis-ease in you.

I can go on and on about this but I think I made my point clear.

Bottom line - I don't feel psychics are any more "charlatans" than clergy. Like clergy, though what they're selling isn't factual, it can be comforting. Also like clergy, I suspect some psychics are terrible, some mediocre and others benign. A benefit of psychics is that they're usually a one time thing -- you don't spend a life contributing to their business. Sort of like going on a one-time bender, but not being a regular drinker. Beats pledging to a church and subscribing to a whole set of supernatural beliefs and stories for which there is no evidence.

I don't condone psychics and I wouldn't recommend one to a friend, but I don't see them as an unmitigated evil, just a bit of comforting fantasy. Of course the situation you described with your mother was different. She was trying to feign happiness (“My husband is with God). Gigi was seeking comfort and closure (“My baby’s safe”).

ms bloom, if you are still monitoring this blog (and i hope you aren't; i think your instinct to leave is correct), please don't take the skepticism of many of us personally. we don't know you and have no real understanding of your pain or your experience, but we do mourn the loss of one so young and also the horrible pain you must feel.

pop was a preacher and he spent a lot of his time visiting folks in the hospital and dealing with loss and suffering. he became a pretty good boot-strap psychologist and i watched him for half-a-century provide REAL comfort to those in need. made 'em laugh as well.

those who leave us here behind depend upon us to keep them alive in our memories and in our hearts. meaning and purpose will follow from the way that you proceed and honor the memory of your late son. your life is as precious as his and now you must live for yourself AND for him as well.

i hope you have some close friends and, since you seem to be a person of faith, i suggest you seek out a pastor or perhaps a church group that could provide you with some counsel.

it's your choice, but there are sound and healthy ways to deal with grief and loss. please take care of yourself and thank you for sharing your thoughts.

Dear Georgianna -

Of course, you've promised not to read this response, but I would mention that my attacks in this thread were directed at the person who is conning you, not at you personally.

I don't think I can say that about your attacks which have been directed at me and others for whom your reports of contacting the dead are all too familiar and all too easily seen for what they are, ie: con games.

I am sorry for your loss and even sorrier that you have been taken in by this all-too common - and horribly mundane - flim-flam.

Good luck to you.

Dear Norrie -

Please check the dictionary for the definition of the word "reality." Then, get back to me.

I think I owe the religionists at On Faith an apology. I thought they were deluded until I met the posters in this thread carrying water for the mediums.

Unbelievable!

Mr. Mark:

Do yourself a favor and learn to read something thoroughly, and not see just what you want to see. You missed just about everything. You jumped onto the German shepherd thing like a rabid dog---it was the only decent point you could make---and you generalized about the beer, missing the beauty of what actually happened. You missed the uncle, the niece, and everything else...you remind me of a religios fanatic or something.

I'm done with this blog. If you respond, I won't see it. I've had enough of you tunnel-visioned people. Sure there are fakes out there...but you can't handle the truth...which is that some of the mediums are not fake.

It would just kill you to wrap your mind around that possibility for one second, wouldn't it?

Cowards.

If Glenn is such a great psychic, then he should claim the Randi prize, become famous, and we can all happily converse with our dead loved ones. He'll never do this though, because he's a fake who knows he'd be exposed in a minute.

Turbocramb and Mr. Mark,

I'm afraid you two "goats" (and all the other "goats" on this thread) are butting your heads fruitlessly against a reality you won't let yourselves see.

Please consider this:

Mock On, Mock On, Voltaire, Rousseau

Mock on, mock on, Voltaire, Rousseau;
Mock on, mock on; 'tis all in vain!
You throw the sand against the wind,
And the wind blows it back again.
And every sand becomes a gem
Reflected in the beams divine;
Blown back they blind the mocking eye,
But still in Israel's paths they shine.

The Atoms of Democritus
And Newton's Particles of Light
Are sands upon the Red Sea shore,
Where Israel's tents do shine so bright.

William Blake

Giorgianna -

The German Shepherd is the third most-popular dog in the United States and has been for years.

This is how mediums work - they pick something obvious that there's a good chance you've had an experience with and you then fill in the blank. Your story is an example of this. It is what cold reading is all about.

My family owned a dog once, not a German Shepherd. But off the top of my head I can think of at least three of my friends who owned German Shepherds, and my grandmother owned one that died when I was about 8 years old. Had your medium asked me about a German Shepherd I could have easily filled in the blanks for him.

BTW - the most popular breed of dog in the USA are #1 Labrador retrievers and, #2 Golden retrievers. I have to ask: did those two breeds happen to come up during your reading?

Then, there's the subject of beer. Now, THERE'S are rare drink in this country, especially among 20-somethings. And whoever heard of the saying, "put it on my tab?" Yes, anyone who drinks beer and uses the *obscure* phrase "put it on my tab" may as well be reciting lines from Aristophanes' "The Frogs."

The medium went with something obvious and you fell for it as would many people whose emotions are raw and are grasping at something, anything to ease their suffering.

There are no spirits involved here. Just a crafty charlatan and a grieving mother being fed a line of bull.

Think about this Georgianna, "the spirits" are telling me that your son had an experience with one of your dogs in DECEMBER. He's telling me clearly that it is DECEMBER.

I am also seeing a woman knitting something for your son.

A man with a name that starts with an "R" is in the room. He is acting fatherly towards your son.

If any or all of those ring a bell, then you can see exactly what your "medium" did.

The probability of tossing 90% heads is slim, however this is absolutely worthless in this discussion. NO PARAPSYCHOLOGIST HAS EVER GOTTEN 90% RESULTS, whether positive OR negative.

In the real world, people looking for psychic effects report numbers which are outside of calculated statistical significance by the smallest of fractions. The larger the sample size and the more rigidly controlled the study, the smaller the resulting "effect."

The sole reason for the idea of "psi-missing" is to double the number of "significant" results the parapsychologists can publish.

Dear "Sorry Sally":

Finally. At last. You're asking questions. Finally, at last, you're being reasonable.

I can respect your questions. I can respect your demands for proof. Finally, you're not just screaming and yelling judgments about a situation you never saw.

First of all, I don't live in New York. I live over 200 miles from New York. Glenn had no idea who I was. He was told my nickname when he walked through Justin's and my friend's door. That's all. Glenn didn't even know Justin's friend's address until just before he came over, and he didn't know his name, either. We were very, very careful to tell Glenn nothing at all.

Thirdly, Justin died on July 7th. I saw Glenn on Sept. 5th. Almost two whole months later. The NY Daily News piece about Justin had been small and not prominently placed. Justin had not yet become well-known. I don't think Glenn remembered anything about Justin's death, or if he ever knew about it at all, and if he did, he had no way to connect it to me.

Fourthly, most of Glenn's sessions are done ON THE PHONE. That's so there's much less chance of people thinking he's "cold reading" them. We INSISTED on seeing him in person. OUR CHOICE, NOT GLENN'S.

I totally agree with you that a very unconvincing two minutes of the tape was played. Unfortunate. I will now tell you things that blew Justin's friend and me away, and convinced us my son was really there.

Right off the bat (with Justin's friend and me sitting there waiting and silent)Glenn told us two people were there. He said one of them was a gentleman, and he had a lot to say. He said the other one was an older woman, who looked to be grandmotherly aged. He said she was there to cross the gentleman over, and also to give me toughness and strength. Glenn said her birthday was April.

All of a sudden, I nearly fell out of my chair. I realized that had to be my maternal grandmother, who passed away at 74 when I was 18, whose birthday was in April. I hadn't thought of her a lot since her death. But now I remembered how she had always been incredibly strong and self-assertive---both as a young widow and then a bereaved mother-- and also, now I realized---SHE SUFFERED THE SAME TRAGEDY AS I HAD!! SHE HAD LOST HER YOUNGEST, MOST GIFTED CHILD WHEN THAT CHILD WAS THE SAME AGE AS JUSTIN...my mother. So OF COURSE she'd show up with Justin. She more than anyone understands my pain! I had never thought of that before, and here Glenn was telling me, "Here she is, here for you." I also then realized that it was probably SHE who has turned me so toward my granddaughters for strength. She once turned to ME, her grandchild, when HER youngest, closest child died...and she's been influencing me to do the same.

Then Glenn turned to the young man and said (not knowing he was my son) that this is someone I've spent many lifetimes with. I realize that sounds very vague, but I was completely bowled over, because I've always called Justin my "soulmate child". Always, since he was little, and I dearly love my other two sons, but I never felt that way about them.

Then Glenn went on to reveal things about Justin that only Justin could have told him: that he'd cut his life short, that he was a daredevil (Glenn used that word); that this gentleman had sometimes done things that other people don't dare do; and he saw this gentleman taking bows and holding "Emmy awards".

He saw this guy surrounded by animals. He saw him working with animals.

Justin and I always shared an intense love of animals.

Glenn started seeing other people coming forth. He saw my passed away Uncle Don, who died 20 years ago. Glenn saw "A tall, thin guy with big ears, smoking a lot of cigarettes." Glenn had my uncle totally down pat, right down to his big ears. And I haven't even thought of this uncle in decades, much less written of him or talked about him.

Glenn saw my mother, and called her "a fly on the wall." Glenn had no idea that my mother died when I was six; he had no idea that I've felt her hovering presence as my guardian angel all my life since I was a child; so it was very, very apt that he saw her as a fly on the wall. That's exactly what she's always been to me.

Glenn saw something else that blew my mind, that didn't make it onto his tape, because the tape was only 60 minutes, and he stayed for over an hour, and this was at the end. He saw a dog with Justin. I said, "Of course. That's Chipper. He died three years ago. He was our dog." Glenn said, "Yes, I see a German Shepherd." And I replied, "No. It can't be a Shepherd. Chippy was a full-blooded Yellow Lab." And Glenn insisted, "Nope. This is a German Shepherd. I'm looking at a German Shepherd." He kept this up for a full minute or two, with me shaking my head, confused, until all of a sudden it hit me, just like a ton of bricks: 17 years ago, when Justin was 10, we adopted a German Shepherd from the aminal shelter. We only had him for a short while, a few months, because he up and disappeared. Justin had been crushed by this. I hadn't thought of this dog in many years, and neither had Justin. And now here's Glenn telling me, this Shepherd is sitting right next to Justin.

I said, "Well, where's Chippy?" And Glenn said Justin said Chippy stays with my mother. That made perfect sense to me, because in life, sometimes Chippy had stayed with my aunt, who's my mother's living sister.

Glenn also said Justin was talking about a little girl, who looks a lot like him, whose name is unusual. Glenn showed me with his hands exactly how high Justin was saying she is. This could only be my almost 4-year old granddaughter, Liya, whose name is not spelled the usual way, Leah. And out of my 4 granddaughters, she looks the most like Justin. She lives in Buffalo. 8 hours from New York. Now you tell me how Glenn could have come up with THAT one on his own.

I'VE SAVED THE BEST FOR LAST:

When he was alive, Justin would visit his friend a lot (the one at the session with Glenn and me). This friend is very cordial, and he always had a beer out for Justin. Justin would always take it, and he'd say "Put it on my tab."

Sure enough, halfway through Glenn said the young man was saying "Hi buddy" to his friend, and then he said "I'd like a beer. Where's my beer." The friend brought a beer over, and Glenn then said: "He says put it on my tab."

Peace.

Dear "Sorry Sally":

Finally. At last. You're asking questions. Finally, at last, you're being reasonable.

I can respect your questions. I can respect your demands for proof. Finally, you're not just screaming and yelling judgments about a situation you never saw.

First of all, I don't live in New York. I live over 200 miles from New York. Glenn had no idea who I was. He was told my nickname when he walked through Justin's and my friend's door. That's all. Glenn didn't even know Justin's friend's address until just before he came over, and he didn't know his name, either. We were very, very careful to tell Glenn nothing at all.

Thirdly, Justin died on July 7th. I saw Glenn on Sept. 5th. Almost two whole months later. The NY Daily News piece about Justin had been small and not prominently placed. Justin had not yet become well-known. I don't think Glenn remembered anything about Justin's death, or if he ever knew about it at all, and if he did, he had no way to connect it to me.

Fourthly, most of Glenn's sessions are done ON THE PHONE. That's so there's much less chance of people thinking he's "cold reading" them. We INSISTED on seeing him in person. OUR CHOICE, NOT GLENN'S.

I totally agree with you that a very unconvincing two minutes of the tape was played. Unfortunate. I will now tell you things that blew Justin's friend and me away, and convinced us my son was really there.

Right off the bat (with Justin's friend and me sitting there waiting and silent)Glenn told us two people were there. He said one of them was a gentleman, and he had a lot to say. He said the other one was an older woman, who looked to be grandmotherly aged. He said she was there to cross the gentleman over, and also to give me toughness and strength. Glenn said her birthday was April.

All of a sudden, I nearly fell out of my chair. I realized that had to be my maternal grandmother, who passed away at 74 when I was 18, whose birthday was in April. I hadn't thought of her a lot since her death. But now I remembered how she had always been incredibly strong and self-assertive---both as a young widow and then a bereaved mother-- and also, now I realized---SHE SUFFERED THE SAME TRAGEDY AS I HAD!! SHE HAD LOST HER YOUNGEST, MOST GIFTED CHILD WHEN THAT CHILD WAS THE SAME AGE AS JUSTIN...my mother. So OF COURSE she'd show up with Justin. She more than anyone understands my pain! I had never thought of that before, and here Glenn was telling me, "Here she is, here for you." I also then realized that it was probably SHE who has turned me so toward my granddaughters for strength. She once turned to ME, her grandchild, when HER youngest, closest child died...and she's been influencing me to do the same.

Then Glenn turned to the young man and said (not knowing he was my son) that this is someone I've spent many lifetimes with. I realize that sounds very vague, but I was completely bowled over, because I've always called Justin my "soulmate child". Always, since he was little, and I dearly love my other two sons, but I never felt that way about them.

Then Glenn went on to reveal things about Justin that only Justin could have told him: that he'd cut his life short, that he was a daredevil (Glenn used that word); that this gentleman had sometimes done things that other people don't dare do; and he saw this gentleman taking bows and holding "Emmy awards".

He saw this guy surrounded by animals. He saw him working with animals.

Justin and I always shared an intense love of animals.

Glenn started seeing other people coming forth. He saw my passed away Uncle Don, who died 20 years ago. Glenn saw "A tall, thin guy with big ears, smoking a lot of cigarettes." Glenn had my uncle totally down pat, right down to his big ears. And I haven't even thought of this uncle in decades, much less written of him or talked about him.

Glenn saw my mother, and called her "a fly on the wall." Glenn had no idea that my mother died when I was six; he had no idea that I've felt her hovering presence as my guardian angel all my life since I was a child; so it was very, very apt that he saw her as a fly on the wall. That's exactly what she's always been to me.

Glenn saw something else that blew my mind, that didn't make it onto his tape, because the tape was only 60 minutes, and he stayed for over an hour, and this was at the end. He saw a dog with Justin. I said, "Of course. That's Chipper. He died three years ago. He was our dog." Glenn said, "Yes, I see a German Shepherd." And I replied, "No. It can't be a Shepherd. Chippy was a full-blooded Yellow Lab." And Glenn insisted, "Nope. This is a German Shepherd. I'm looking at a German Shepherd." He kept this up for a full minute or two, with me shaking my head, confused, until all of a sudden it hit me, just like a ton of bricks: 17 years ago, when Justin was 10, we adopted a German Shepherd from the aminal shelter. We only had him for a short while, a few months, because he up and disappeared. Justin had been crushed by this. I hadn't thought of this dog in many years, and neither had Justin. And now here's Glenn telling me, this Shepherd is sitting right next to Justin.

I said, "Well, where's Chippy?" And Glenn said Justin said Chippy stays with my mother. That made perfect sense to me, because in life, sometimes Chippy had stayed with my aunt, who's my mother's living sister.

Glenn also said Justin was talking about a little girl, who looks a lot like him, whose name is unusual. Glenn showed me with his hands exactly how high Justin was saying she is. This could only be my almost 4-year old granddaughter, Liya, whose name is not spelled the usual way, Leah. And out of my 4 granddaughters, she looks the most like Justin. She lives in Buffalo. 8 hours from New York. Now you tell me how Glenn could have come up with THAT one on his own.

I'VE SAVED THE BEST FOR LAST:

When he was alive, Justin would visit his friend a lot (the one at the session with Glenn and me). This friend is very cordial, and he always had a beer out for Justin. Justin would always take it, and he'd say "Put it on my tab."

Sure enough, halfway through Glenn said the young man was saying "Hi buddy" to his friend, and then he said "I'd like a beer. Where's my beer." The friend brought a beer over, and Glenn then said: "He says put it on my tab."

Peace.

Here's my last post.

The probability of getting 90 heads from 100 tosses of a fair coin is:

(1/2)^90*(1/2)^10*C(100,90)=1.37x10^(-17)

This is an astronomically small number. The problem is, I don't believe for a second that anyone has ever, or ever will, be able to produce a series of coin flips like this. Anyone who says that it's been done in a scientifically legitimate way is a liar.

Seattledodger,

I never said I thought I could talk to dead people.

I simply said that the sceptics here shouldn't dissmiss that possibility out of hand.

Then we discussed paranormal experiments and probasbilities.

P.S.: Nine out of ten tosses coming up heads is not impossible (nothing is) nor even that improbable. But the low test scores of the goats are so improbable that it's virtually certain that they didn't happen by chance.

Since you've left this thread, I'll send my post to you telepathically. Please let me know at what time you receive it.

It will help me in my calculations of paranormal parameters.

Thanks & Best Wishes.

Seattledodger,

I never said I thought I could talk to dead people.

I simply said that the sceptics here shouldn't dissmiss that possibility out of hand.

Then we discussed paranormal experiments and probasbilities.

P.S.: Nine out of ten tosses coming up heads is not impossible (nothing is) nor even that improbable. But the low test scores of the goats are so improbable that it's virtually certain that they didn't happen by chance.

Since you've left this thread, I'll send my post to you telepathically. Please let me know at what time you receive it.

It will help me in my calculations of paranormal parameters.

Thanks & Best Wishes.

Norrie Hoyt;
I'm a goat. Spiritualism and seances and oiuja boards were all in vogue at the turn of the century,in both the UK and the US.
And the reports you mention were also from that time,when almost everyone was curious about it,
and many believed it a really big deal.
But that was then Norrie.This is now.

Bob S: "The odds against a run of ninety consecutive tails or heads is 2 *(2^90), which is vastly improbable indeed, but hardly the same as impossible."

actually it's not 90 in a row, but 90 out of 100 (or 9 out of 10, though the law of large numbers makes this a bit more complicated). and of course, there's no ACTUAL EVIDENCE that anyone came anywhere close to these numbers in any reputable study. these folks are making stuff up. it's desperation time.

this is just getting silly.

NH, you believe you can talk to dead people, but 9 heads out of 10 coin tosses is just 'impossible' is it? i'd call that a failure of imagination compounded by a complete misunderstanding of probability theory.

anyway, i know when i'm in over my head. no way that mere reason can compete with this, so ciao kids. i'm due back on earth.

Mr. Mark,

I think you'd enjoy Ms. Blum's book more than the one on succubi.

Besides, aren't you interested in William James?

If you're not, our frequent poster, Henry James, will be after you about his brother.

Regards.

Bob S.,

What happened?! I agree with your last post to Yikes!

It's been 52 years since I last spent my time calculating these sorts of probabilities and I've forgotten how to do it - I only remember the generalities. So thanks for your calculation.

As you say, nothing's impossible. But if the odds are 20 trillion to 1 against it, I wouldn't bet the farm on it, or, if it happened, think it happened by chance.

Regards.

Norrie writes:

"The odds of the goats in sheep-goat paranormal experiments getting their very low scores by chance is so small that you have to conclude that they were unconsciously using a negative paranormal power."

You "have to conclude?" What? ALL other possibilities have been eliminated? Isn't it just as possible that "they" were unconsciously using a SUPER POSITIVE paranormal power, one so powerful that it attracted a super high number of negative paranormal...er...particles that gave a false reading?

Honestly, some people just don't get science...er...para-science...er...pseudo-science...

SEATTLE DODGER,

We're going around in a circle semantically. I was using language commonly used by experimenters in interpreting their experiments when I said "It couldn't have happened by chance."

A more precise statement would have been:

"It could have happened by chance but the odds against its happening by chance are so great (millions or billions against) that it almost certainly didn't, and some variable (paranormal ability) was undoubtedly at work here."

Consider the use of DNA in criminal trials. The prosecutor doesn't say "The DNA found at the scene was the defendant's". Instead he says "The odds of this DNA's being from someone other than the defendant is 1 in 100,000,000." Would you convict on that probabalistic basis? Juries do.

This quantum universe runs on probability. There is a finite probability of anything happening (the sun won't rise tomorrow). But when the odds are huge against a happening's resulting by chance, you have to assume that some variable is causing the result. Almost all scientific experiments are intepreted on this basis.

The odds of the goats in sheep-goat paranormal experiments getting their very low scores by chance is so small that you have to conclude that they were unconsciously using a negative paranormal power.

Yikes - C'mon now! The "Gambler's Fallacy" refers to the mistaken belief that a run of heads makes heads less likely on the NEXT flip. Two consecutives runs of ten heads (a run of twenty) is, in fact, only a thosandth as likely as a single run of ten.

The odds against a run of ninety consecutive tails or heads is 2 *(2^90), which is vastly improbable indeed, but hardly the same as impossible.

Dear Norrie -

I admit that I haven't read Ms Blum's book on Ghost Hunters, but I promise that I'll get to it right after I finished the books I'm planning on reading that present the latest scientific studies on chupacabras, yetis, succubi and forest sprites.

;)

"By your type of reasoning, the best explanation would be that the meta-universe was itself a simulation in a meta-meta-universe."

Chris, although a cogent response, it doesn't get to the heart of the scientific analysis vis a vis what quantum mechanics has already demonstrated, that there is in fact a good probability of this universe as computer simulation, and one can't discount the possibility that the post human civilization that was able to run this program could in fact itself also be a simulation.

As far as creating conscious minds in computers, there are some scientists who believe we are but decades away, that the young children of today will be part of a world tomorrow with such beings in existence.

Which leads me to believe that if we are simulated beings, we can ithen become other simulated beings by the post-human civiliation that created this ancestor simulation to begin with-in which case the ancient Vedic texts of the Hindus as well as Buddha, may not be too far off the mark-there are millions of worlds-that is a tenet of both Buddhism and Hinduism; reincarnation is accepted as part and parcel of life as we know it.

I've much more to say on this theory-because I do think there is a VERY good chance that this universe is a computer simulation-I mean, in all the limitless dead space that is the universe, this tiny planet is the only one with conscious human life? If we are in fact the only "conscious being civilization" (and we have no proof that any other humanoid civilizations exist) then it seems more likely than ever that we ARE inhabitants of a simulation-cuts down on the band width to have only one ancestor simulation running.

Yikes, indeed.

We're down to coin flips?

Here it is. The chance of a coin turning up heads or tails is 50:50.

It's 50:50 each time you do it.

The idea that a succession of heads or tails would somehow influence future flips is wrong. This is known as the "gambler's fallacy."

Each individual flip is 50:50, and has no relation to other flips. The odds of have 100 heads in 100 tries is not astromical.

The odds are 50:50 each time you flipped the coin.

Sheesh. Sally and Jon, weren't we talking about religion or some such?

Norrie Hoyt: "You're of course right, SD, they do allow for it, but please tell me the odds against getting 90 of either heads or tails. They're astronomical. That result couldn't have happened by chance, so a "paranormal" variable was at work."

this is madness, but in case the children aren't in bed yet, we still have a teachable moment.

at the beginning of your sentence you admit 'You're of course right, SD' that the laws of probablity allow for a 90/10 split (in fact all but MANDATE a 90/10 split if you flip enough coins), but by the end of your sentence you say the 'result couldn't have happened by chance.' which is it?

let's get to the bottom of this. events with long, long odds do indeed happen. 65 million years ago i'm sure the poor dinosaur looking up at the falling asteroid that was about to rock his world could equally well have asserted what you do: that the odds of a giant rock hitting while HE was alive were, well, astronomical (pardon the pun).

he still got whacked. go figure.

BOB S. wrote:

"Ummm... So the strongest evidence for the paranormal is one competent medium a century ago and a sixty-five year old symbol identification exercise?"

Not at all. PLease do some serious research on the subject. There are thousands of research journal articles on paranormal studies.

WALK THE LINE wrote: "Here is a slightly more skeptical review of Blum’s book, “Ghost Hunters - William James and the Hunt for Scientific Proof of Life After Death” by Joe Nickell:"

Mr. Nickell is undoubtedly a closed-mind goat sceptic, who wouldn't perceive a paranormal event if it came up and bit him.

SEATTLEDODGER wrote: "mr/ms hoyt. the laws of probablity do indeed allow for a toss of 90 heads and 10 tails. if you flip enough coins, it will happen. you almost never get 50/50 do you?"

You're of course right, SD, they do allow for it, but please tell me the odds against getting 90 of either heads or tails. They're astronomical. That result couldn't have happened by chance, so a "paranormal" variable was at work. Practically all biological and psychological experiments are interpreted using this statistical basis.

WALK THE LINE also wrote, after quoting my statistical example: "You’re joking, right?
If you’re not, you have a very serious mis-understanding of probability statistics."

WTL, Please show me where I went wrong.

Chris Everett,

Concerning "The Society for Psychical Research" you wrote:

"Unfortunately, I went to the SPR's website. They're a bunch of loonies. Their publications include "ADVENTURES IN THE SUPERNORMAL", "SPIRT MESSENGER" and "DIMENSIONS OF ENCHANTMENT: THE MYSTERY OF UFO ABDUCTIONS CLOSE ENCOUNTERS AND ALIENS". I guess they really are the worlds greatest scientists. I mean scientologists. Or maybe proctologists. Or maybe just bums."

There are two major "Societies for Psychical Research", the British and the American.

I went to both sites but didn't find any publications with the absurd titles you set out. Can you give me a link to where you found them?

I did notice that the American Society sold books with popular titles that might be questionable or not serious. But that doesn't necessarily reflect on the American Society's activities.

They may merely be catering to their audience's taste for anything that seems paranormal, and making money by selling them books.

Since you hurled derogatory insults at those associated with the Societies, in order that the readers of this thread won't be misled by your writing as to the seriousness of those involved, here's the list of the Presidents of the British Society for Psychical Research:

Past Presidents
1882-1884 (and 1888-1892)
Henry Sidgwick (1838-1900): philosopher, Knightsbridge Professor of Moral Philosophy at Cambridge University 1883-1900

1885-1887
Balfour Stewart (1827-1887): physicist, Professor of Physics at Queen's College, Manchester, from 1870, Fellow of the Royal Society from 1862

1888-1892
Henry Sidgwick (also 1882-1884)

1893
Arthur Balfour (1848-1930): philosopher, Prime Minister 1902-1905

1894-1895
William James (1842-1910): American psychologist and philosopher

1896-1899
Sir William Crookes (1832-1919): chemist and physicist, discoverer of thallium and cathode rays, inventor of radiometer

1900
Frederic William Henry Myers (1843-1901): classical scholar and philosopher, "Of all the founder members he had perhaps the liveliest and widest-ranging mind."

1901-1903 (and 1932)
Sir Oliver Lodge (1851-1935): physicist and mathematician, Professor of Physics and Mathematics at Liverpool from 1881, first Principal of Birmingham University

1904
Sir William Fletcher Barrett (1845-1925): physicist; Chair of Physics at the Royal College of Science in Dublin, Fellow of the Royal Society from 1899

1905
Charles Richet (1850-1935): French physiologist, Professor of Physiology at the Faculty of Medicine of Paris, Nobel Prize winner 1913

1906-1907
Gerald Balfour (1854-1945): classical scholar, later politician

1908-1909 (and 1932)
Eleanor Sidgwick (1845-1936): mathematician, closely connected with Newnham College, Cambridge (first women's college), Principal of Newnham College 1892-1910

1910
Henry Arthur Smith (1848-1922): lawyer, business man and administrator

1911
Andrew Lang (1844-1912): anthropologist, writer, scholar of extraordinarily wide range of learning, author of sixty published volumes, Fellow of Merton College

1912
The Rt Reverend W. Boyd Carpenter (1841-1918): clergyman, Bishop of Ripon from 1884, Canon of Westminster from 1911

1913
Henri Bergson (1859-1941): French philosopher, Chair of the Philosophy of History at the College de France 1900-1921

1914
Ferdinand Canning Scott Schiller (1864-1937): philosopher; Profesor of Philosophy at the University of South California from 1929.

1915-1916 (and 1952)
Gilbert Murray (1866-1957): classical scholar, Fellow of New College, Oxford, later Regius Professor of Greek. Founded the League of Nations Union after World War I.

1917-1918
L. P. Jacks (1860-1955): philosopher; Professor of Philosophy at Manchester College, Oxford from 1903, Principal of the College from 1951

1919
John William Strutt, 3rd Baron Rayleigh (1842-1919): experimental physicist, Fellow of Trinity College, Cambridge, from 1866; Nobel Prize winner 1904

1920-1921
William McDougall (1871-1938): psychologist, educated at St John's College, Cambridge, became Wilde Reader in Mental Psychology at Oxford in 1905. In 1921 appointed Professor of Psychology at Harvard University, then at Duke University in 1927, where he founded the Journal of Parapsychology in 1937.

1922
Thomas Walter Mitchell (1869-1944): physician, for many years editor of the British Journal of Medical Psychology

1923
Camille Flammarion (1842-1925): French astronomer, President of the Astronomical Society of France

1924-1925
John George Piddington (1869-1952): businessman

1926-1927
Hans Driesch (1867-1941): German biologist and natural philosopher; Professor of Systematic Philosophy at Cologne University from 1919, Director of Philosophical Seminars at Leipzig from 1921

1928-1929
Sir Lawrence J. Jones, Bt (1885-1955)

1930-1931
Walter Franklin Prince (1863-1934): clergyman; described by Joseph Banks Rhine as 'my principal teacher in psychical research'.

1932
Joint Presidency: Eleanor Sidgwick (see 1908-1909) and Oliver Lodge (see 1901)

1933-1934
Edith Lyttelton (née Balfour) (1865-1949): social activist and writer

1935-1936 (and 1958-1960)
Charlie Dunbar Broad (1887-1971): philosopher; after a distinguished academic career at several universities, he eventually became Knightbridge Professor of Moral Philosophy at Cambridge in 1935. He had Fellowships and honorary degrees in several countries.

1937-1938
Robert John Strutt, 4th Baron Rayleigh (1875-1947): physicist; Professor of Physics at Imperial College, London, 1908-1919, Fellow of the Royal Society from 1905

1939-1941
Henry Habberley Price (1899-1984): philosopher; various academic posts, including Wykeham Professor of Logic

1942-1944
Robert Henry Thouless (1894-1984): psychologist; academic posts at a number of universities, eventually becoming Reader in Educational Psychology at Cambridge

1945-1946
George N.M. Tyrell (1879-1952): mathematician and physicist; worked under Marconi on radio communications.

1947-1948
William Henry Salter (1880-1969): classical scholar and lawyer; called to the Bar 1905.

1949-1950
Gardner Murphy (1895-1979): psychologist; Hodgson Fellow at Harvard University, Professor of the Menninger Foundation from 1940, visiting Professor of Psychology at George Washington University

1950-1951
Samuel George Soal (1890-1975): mathematician; Senior Lecturer in Mathematics at Queen Mary College after service during World War I

1952
Gilbert Murray (see 1915-1916)

1953-1955
F.J.M. Stratton (1881-1961): astrophysicist, Professor of Astrophysics and Director of Solar Physics Observatory at Cambridge 1928-1947, President of Gonville and Caius College at Cambridge 1945-1948

1956-1958
Guy William Lambert (1889-1984): civil servant, served as Assistant Under-Secretary of State for War.

1958-1960
Charlie Dunbar Broad (see 1935-1936)

1960-1961
Henry Habberley Price (see 1939-1941)

1960-1963
Eric Robertson Dodds (1893-1979): classical scholar, Regius Professor of Greek (Oxford)

1963-1965
Donald James West (1924-): psychiatrist and criminologist (also 1984-1988 and 1998-1999; for full entry see 1998-1999)

1965-1969
Sir Alister Hardy (1896-1985): zoologist; Professor of Zoology at Hull University and then Linacre Professor of Zoology at Oxford; founder of the Religious Experience Research Unit at Manchester College, Oxford

1969-1971
William A. H. Rushton (1901-1980): physiologist, Professor at Cambridge

1971-1974
Clement William Kennedy Mundle (1920-): philosopher; Head of Philosophy Departments first at Dundee University, then at University College of North Wales

1974-1976
John Beloff (1920-2006): psychologist; Senior Lecturer in Psychology at the University of Edinburgh; encouraged post-graduate studies in psychical research and was instrumental in establishing the Koestler Unit at Edinburgh.

1976-1979 (and 1981-1982)
Arthur J. Ellison (1920-2000): technologist; after a career in industry taught at Queen Mary College, from 1972 Head of the Department of Electrical and Electronic Engineering at the City University, London.

1980
Joseph Banks Rhine (1895-1980): biologist and parapsychologist, writer, founder of Parapsychology Laboratory at Duke University, USA

1980
Louisa Ella Rhine (1891-1983): parapsychologist, writer, co-worker with her husband, J.B. Rhine

1981-1983
Arthur J. Ellison (see 1976-1979)

1984-1988
Donald J. West: psychiatrist and criminologist (also 1963-1965, and 1998-1999; for full entry see 1998-1999)

1988-1989
Ian Stevenson, M.D. (1918-2007): Director of Division of Personality Studies, Carlson Professor of Psychiatry, University of Virginia

1989-1992
Alan Gauld: psychologist, retired Reader in Psychology, University of Nottingham.

1993-1995
Archie Roy: astronomer; Professor Emeritus of Astronomy, University of Glasgow, founder of the Scottish SPR in 1987

1995-1998
David Fontana: psychologist; Professor of Educational Psychology, Universities of Minho and of Algarve, Portugal; Distinguished Visiting Fellow, University of Wales, Cardiff

1998-1999
Donald J. West (also 1963-1965 and 1984-1988): psychologist and criminologist; Former Director of the Institute of Criminology, Professor of Clinical Criminology at Cambridge, Fellow of Darwin College, Cambridge

2000-2004
Bernard Carr: Professor in Mathematics and Astronomy, Queen Mary & Westfield College, London University

2005-2007
John Poynton: Emeritus Professor of Biology, University of Natal; Scientific Fellow of the Zoological Society of London; Associate of the Natural History Museum, London.

2007-
Deborah Delanoy: Professor of Psychology, University of Northampton; Research Director for the School of Behaviour Studies, Director of the Centre for the Study of Anomalous Psychological Processes, Northampton.

norrie hoyt: "TELEKINESIS EXAMPLE: Toss a coin 100 times and try to make heads always come up. If heads comes up 52 or 48 times, that's simply chance - you don't have telekinetic powers.

If, on the other hand, heads comes up, say, 90 times, or 10 times, that's so far out from normal probability that IT COULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED BY CHANCE!"

i swore i wasn't going to get involved in this thread. it's too down-market even for me.

but this is just too bloody much.

mr/ms hoyt. the laws of probablity do indeed allow for a toss of 90 heads and 10 tails. if you flip enough coins, it will happen. you almost never get 50/50 do you? and oddly enough, really smart folks have even researched the distribution of the various probablities.

i SINCERELY hope no one is being taken in by this psudo-scientific mumbo jumbo.

this entire episode is most deplorable. to essentially capitalize on the pain and vulnerability of someone in grief is truly noxious.

the moderators/editors of this blog should be sanctioned by their employers for exposing a fragile person to a public debate and for providing a gratis advertising opportunity of frauds who will, no doubt, use this very effectivly to ensnare others.

and as for the assertion that 'no harm has been done' -- well, we'll see. what happens the next time this poor woman wants to talk to her son? how much will THAT visit cost in money and in tears? what about the next time she loses a loved one?

hope you moderators have good lawyers. or maybe i don't.

Here is a slightly more skeptical review of Blum’s book, “Ghost Hunters - William James and the Hunt for Scientific Proof of Life After Death” by Joe Nickell:

“Blum should have called this book Gullible Travels: Ghost Stories for the Faith-based Inquirer…In any case, I bought the book soon after it was published, hoping to read about how a great mind like that of William James was duped by the likes of Leonora Piper. I hoped for some sort of explanation of the gullibility of James and other eminent men regarding stories of spirits or telepathic communication. What was it about James that led him to accept such rubbish as that spirits might be communicating to the unconscious mind, expressed via automatic writing? How did he and so many other eminent scientists allow themselves to be duped? Why do most scientists reject spiritualism as superstition? My hope for answers to these questions was dashed because these were not questions Blum would ask.”

For the whole review, please see:
http://skepdic.com/refuge/blum.html

Norrie:

Your latest post summed it up for me: "She achieves deep poignancy at moments that in less gifted hands could have seemed most laughable." I guess my hands are less gifted.

Why don't you collect the $1,000,000.00 that Randi is offering you? I would.

“TELEKINESIS EXAMPLE: Toss a coin 100 times and try to make heads always come up. If heads comes up 52 or 48 times, that's simply chance - you don't have telekinetic powers.

If, on the other hand, heads comes up, say, 90 times, or 10 times, that's so far out from normal probability that IT COULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED BY CHANCE!

The science of probability can tell us the exact probability of getting a particular anomalous result. The probability of getting 10 or 90 heads in 100 tosses is undoubtedly one in millions or billions.”

You’re joking, right?

If you’re not, you have a very serious mis-understanding of probability statistics.

To Anon,

One of the most important characteristics of a scientific worldview is that it be fully integrated, by which I mean that its implications must be pursued and found to be consistent with the assumptions underlying the original worldview. Take your universe-as-computer-simulation hypothesis. You postulate a meta-universe within which computers are being run which produce this universe as a simulation of which you are a conscious part. Presumably, for you, the existence of the universe now has an explanation (it's a computer simulation) whereas before it didn't (if not a simulation, than what?). However, you now have the burden of explaning the meta-universe containing the meta-computer, and presumably the creatures who invented it, built it and programmed it (creating your self-awareness in the process). Do you really think that this hypothetical meta-universe populated by meta-creatures, meta-computers and meta-programs is easier to explain than the perceived universe of your senses? I think not. By your type of reasoning, the best explanation would be that the meta-universe was itself a simulation in a meta-meta-universe.

Science is a fundamentally humble activity. The most important scientific discoveries that we make are of the form "I don't know". Scientists live with the wisdom that if you can't explain it, you can't explain it (at least not yet). It's the "yet" part that makes science so fun. The need to have everything make sense NOW, to grasp at the most appealing stories as a substitue for scientific explanations that don't exist (YET!), it to short-circuit understanding and step through the gates of superstition, beyond which reason is utterly lost. I say "utterly" because as I indicated at the beginning of this comment, a scientific worldview must be INTEGRATED. Even a modicum of superstition, however seemingly benign, precludes the possibility of an integrated worldview. It's like building a skyscraper where one of the load-bearing beams is made of balsa. (Note: readers of my previous post commenting on the analogies will see that I'm using one here; not as an explanation but as an illustration.)

P.S. Kudos to Mr. Mark. His posts are eloquent and on the mark. Maybe that's the root of his moniker.

Ummm... So the strongest evidence for the paranormal is one competent medium a century ago and a sixty-five year old symbol identification exercise?

Mr. Mark, Walk The Line, and Chris Everett,

There's a good book on Mrs. Piper and the psychic investigations we discussed earlier:

GHOST HUNTERS: WILLIAM JAMES AND THE SEARCH FOR SCIENTIFIC PROOF OF LIFE AFTER DEATH, by Deborah Blum (2006).

PUBLISHERS WEEKLY reviewed it:

From Publisher's Weekly

Starred Review. In a compelling tale with resonance for today, Blum evokes a surprising sympathy for her band of tough-minded intellectuals—among them philosophers, psychologists, even two future Nobelists—who, around the turn of the 20th century, pursued the paranormal in an attempt to bridge the gap between faith and science at a time when religion was besieged by the theory of evolution and a new scientific outlook.

Foremost in the Society for Psychical Research in America was the brilliant philosopher and psychologist William James, who like the others, risked his reputation in this unorthodox pursuit.

Blum unearths the history of their research, their passionate friendships and debates, as well as their private doubts about the meaning of their work.

Much of the society's efforts were devoted to exposing charlatans, but even the most dogged of the members, Richard Hodgson, was baffled by Boston's Leonora Piper, a reluctant medium of rare gifts.

As Hodgson obsessively studies this medium, the story grows weirder and weirder, but Blum, who was nominated for an L.A. Times Book Award for Love at Goon Park, tells it straight, never overdramatizing the strange events.

She achieves deep poignancy at moments that in less gifted hands could have seemed most laughable. The result is a moving portrait of a fascinating group of people and a first-rate slice of cultural history.

Walk The Line,

In your latest post you are simply ignoring and misrepresenting the science and statistics of the sheep/goat experiments.

If a person simply lacked psi, his guessing score would be close to the normal probability of getting right and wrong answers.

TELEKINESIS EXAMPLE: Toss a coin 100 times and try to make heads always come up. If heads comes up 52 or 48 times, that's simply chance - you don't have telekinetic powers.

If, on the other hand, heads comes up, say, 90 times, or 10 times, that's so far out from normal probability that IT COULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED BY CHANCE!

The science of probability can tell us the exact probability of getting a particular anomalous result. The probability of getting 10 or 90 heads in 100 tosses is undoubtedly one in millions or billions.

Since that result could not have happened by chance, it means that the result was caused by some variable, in this case telekinetic powers.

You goats use your telekenetic powers to achieve extraordinarily (impossibly) low scores because you actively disbelieve in telekinesis.

Sheep use the same telekinetic power to achieve high score.

Regards.

Anon writes:

"I have a creepy feeling that the computer simulation theory is the only way TO explain how our world-I don't know WHY I think that, but I do. It rings true to me."

First off, Anonymous, you need to come up with a moniker for yourself. On to your question, which I'll answer with a question:

Would you have been able to believe that our world/reality was all a computer simulation...if we hadn't invented computers? Think about it. It's a theory that is sprung from our technological advancement. We as humans seem predisposed to distrust any advancements made with our own minds. We believe that there must be a dark side to every silver lining.

Religion promotes such thinking, ie: God v Devil. Both came from heaven. One is good, one is bad. Religion continues to distrust science - how could it be good if it came from the mind of man, rather than god? In America, the Republics have won election after election by fostering a distrust of the intellect (see Stevenson, Adlai, Gore, Al etc). It follows that - horrors! - life might all be a computer simulation!

Computers are just the latest technology. In the past, the cutting edge of information storage was books, so god wrote down the good and bad in his "book." Had the Bible been written in the last 20 years, god would be storing his info on an "infinite hard drive" (sidebar: back in the mid-1990s, who could conceive of a harddrive that held over a gig of memory? Today, you get a 160G HD for less than a trip to Disneyland).

I wouldn't worry about the computer simulation thingy if i were you. I'm pretty sure that reality is actually a form of the technological breakthrough that is TWO steps down the road...whatever that is. :)

Raul:

I found your post to be quite interesting, although I don't agree with your conclusion about "mediums" because they have been demonstrably proven time and again as charletans vis a vis the cold reading.

However, isn't it true that the only way to explain the universe through quantum mechanics is through a computer simulation? That there is in fact, hard scientific evidence that our universe, and everything in it, is really a computer simulation that is being directed by some post-human civilization? I'm very interested in this, because I have a creepy feeling that the computer simulation theory is the only way TO explain how our world-I don't know WHY I think that, but I do. It rings true to me.

The utter cartoonishness of Norrie Hoyt's post is a clue to its absurdity. It's funny how the existence of the afterlife isn't scientifically accepted today, given that it't been "unanimously agreed in absolute, unqualified terms" by some of "the most distinguished scientists this world has ever seen."

I guess that if "even the second most skeptical member of the Society for Psychical Research" conceded the existence of the afterlife then it must be true. Unfortunately, I went to the SPR's website. They're a bunch of loonies. Their publications include "ADVENTURES IN THE SUPERNORMAL", "SPIRT MESSENGER" and "DIMENSIONS OF ENCHANTMENT: THE MYSTERY OF UFO ABDUCTIONS CLOSE ENCOUNTERS AND ALIENS". I guess they really are the worlds greatest scientists. I mean scientologists. Or maybe proctologists. Or maybe just bums.

Walk The Line and Mr. Mark,

Vicktor Zammit may well be a crackpot and a nutjob.

But what he wrote about the investigations of Mrs. Piper, shorn of his emotive and tendentious language, can be found in any number of perfectly accurate articles.

I only posted his writing because it was the best concise summary of Mrs. Piper I could quickly find on the internet.

Regards.

“That if you took a test of your own paranormal powers, such as telekinesis, that you would score so low that your score could NOT have occurred by chance?

And that this means you were in fact usuing your own paranormal powers to sabotage your results, because you don't believe in the paranormal?”

So the fact that people do not have telekinetic powers proves that we do have telekinetic powers.

Brilliant.

Simply Brilliant.

Perhaps you want to re-think your circular reasoning?

NORRIE HOYT writes:
TO ALL THE SCEPTICS ON THIS THREAD:

"Did you know:

That parapsychological researchers call you guys "goats"?

That if you took a test of your own paranormal powers, such as telekinesis, that you would score so low that your score could NOT have occurred by chance?

And that this means you were in fact usuing your own paranormal powers to sabotage your results, because you don't believe in the paranormal?"

Whew! Thanks for the laugh, Norrie. Until this post, I didn't realize you were being sarcastic.

These para-abnormal guys remind me of the homeopathy types who aver that water has a memory and that when it comes to mixing some natural agent into water to make a cure, the power of the cure is in inverse proportion to the amount of the agent added. In other words, the LESS agent you mix in, the more powerful it is.

Don't let the beer manufacturers hear about that one. Oh, wait, they guys at Budweiser already did.

TO ALL THE SCEPTICS ON THIS THREAD:

Did you know:

That parapsychological researchers call you guys "goats"?

That if you took a test of your own paranormal powers, such as telekinesis, that you would score so low that your score could NOT have occurred by chance?

And that this means you were in fact usuing your own paranormal powers to sabotage your results, because you don't believe in the paranormal?

PLEASE READ THIS:

The Sheep - Goat Effect
Mario Varvoglis, Ph.D.

Psi missing is one of the most startling discoveries of modern parapsychology. At times, certain individuals persist in giving the wrong answers in psi tests. The accumulation of systematically wrong answers can be so flagrant that it suggests something quite different than a mere lack of psi abilities: it is as if people use psi to consistently avoid the target, unconsciously "sabotaging" their own results!

A number of different psychodynamics could conceivably lead to psi missing, but one of the most solidly established is quite simple: belief. In 1942, Gertrude Schmeidler, professor of psychology at City University of New York, set up a questionnaire to explore students' beliefs about psi. She used the term "sheep" to refer to those who were confident about the reality of psi and "goats" for those who doubted its existence or its pertinence in the context of the test.

After the questionnaire, she gave the students a classic psi test with ESP cards in which they tried to guess sequences of target- cards. Then Schmeidler compared the results of the psi test and those of the questionnaire.

The remarkable conclusion was that the "sheep" had a significant deviation above chance, while "goats" were significantly below it.

This difference between believers and disbelievers, known as the "sheep-goat effect," has been confirmed by many other researchers. A meta-analysis by Lawrence (1992), covering 73 experiments by 37 different researchers, clearly confirms that subjects who believe in psi obtain, on the average, higher results than those who do not believe in it.

We all tend to select information which confirms our beliefs and avoid that which seems not to fit with them. Selective perception undoubtedly plays a role in our interpretation of apparently paranormal experiences. Skeptics are justified in stating that those who believe firmly in psi will tend to see its occurrence everywhere, even to the point of confusing their own interpretations with the actual events.

On the other hand, disbelievers will also tend toward the complementary fallacy, always finding some so-called "rational" explanation for a psi experience, even when it happens to them.

But the sheep-goat effect suggests that the differences run deeper than mere interpretation: one's attitudes toward psi affects the likelihood that such phenomena will occur in the first place. The more an individual harbors a reductionistic view of the world, the less chance such phenomena will emerge (let alone be witnessed by them); the more one is interested in interconnectedness, and open to psi experiences, the more likely the world will "respond" by creating such experiences.

**************************************************

Want to change your minds?

Dear Norrie -

Thanks for the post on Leonore Piper.

I leave it to someone with more time than me to debunk it, but I'm always skeptical of articles that use phrases like "closed-minded skeptics," "the facts about Mrs. Piper are not in dispute" and "history records this most exciting victory of genuine, psychic mediumship communicating with intelligences from the afterlife," while making sweeping generalizations the norm in painting critics of Piper ("Some of the most eminent scientists and scholars after scientifically investigating Mrs. Piper's mediumship unanimously agreed in absolute, unqualified terms that Mrs. Piper, had proved the existence of the afterlife."and "Mrs. Piper, the brilliant gifted American medium repeatedly won other battles against closed-minded, many times dishonest negative skeptics.") Notice how Piper is "gifted" and "brilliant" while her detractors are "close minded" "dishonest" and "negative skeptics." Now, THERE'S a fair and balanced assessment!

Ms Piper's defenders seem to use the same defenses that are used to defend the clairvoyance of the very well-known Edgar Cayce. Perhaps a few words from his detractors are in order here:

Controversy and criticism

Skeptics of Cayce's purported powers point out that all of the evidence for Cayce comes in the form of anecdotes and testimonials from true believers, none of which is considered scientifically rigorous. They are also critical of Cayce's support for various forms of alternative medicine, which are now regarded by skeptics as quackery.
Michael Shermer writes in Why People Believe Weird Things, "Uneducated beyond the ninth grade, Cayce acquired his broad knowledge through voracious reading and from this he wove elaborate tales."[1] Furthermore, "Cayce was fantasy-prone from his youth, often talking with angels and receiving visions of his dead grandfather."[1] Shermer further cites James Randi as noting "Cayce was fond of expressions like 'I feel that' and 'perhaps' -- qualifying words used to avoid positive declarations."[1] Shermer also explains that methods used at the institution operated by Cayce's followers show their ESP experiments have no statistical difference from chance.[1]
Cayce's followers accept that he was sometimes inaccurate. Cayce's sons, Hugh Lynn Cayce and Edgar Evans Cayce, even co-authored a book called The Outer Limits of Edgar Cayce's Power detailing some of their father's mistakes. They theorize that Cayce's accuracy depended on many variables, such as the spiritual motivation of those seeking the reading. Skeptics identify these theories as excuses intended to prevent paranormal claims from ever being disproven.
Cayce's prophecies occupy somewhat shaky ground. Examples of incorrect Cayce prophecies include him stating that 1933 would be a "good year," and in fact it was one of the worst in the Great Depression. He also stated that US scientists would discover a "death ray" from Atlantis in 1958. Other predictions that have not as yet occurred include massive earth changes and that China would one day be "the cradle of Christianity as applied in the lives of men."
Some Christians regard Cayce as someone who was misled by demonic forces and who has led many astray from what they see as the true path.[2]

(Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Cayce There's more here of interest from both sides)

I wonder how Ms Piper would hold up to today's scientific testing?

Just a thought, Norrie: is there documented evidence of the times Piper was wrong, or are we to believe she was right 100% of the time?

Why has this thread, concerning such a tragic and sad topic-a son's death- devolved into something at the same time, quite hysterically funny?

I don't believe the above Georgianna Bloom is the same as the one on a Note from Sally! But I CAN'T be sure!

Norrie Hoyt:

Please post information from credible sources. Victor Zammit is an Australian lawyer who is a crackpot regarding the paranormal. For more information on his loony ideas please see:

http://pharyngula.org/index/weblog/comments/victor_zammit_the_latest_kook_in_my_collection/P25/

Sally, you told the story this way:

"A week later, in mid July, Justin was dead. At 2:30 one Saturday afternoon, he went out on the ledge of his apartment to have a cigarette, lost his balance and fell six stories to his death. "

But that wasn't the reality of the situation, was it? Certainly not as told by the two who were with him in the apt. and his roommate. Did you not know or bother to read any news stories about his death?

Why did you write the above concerning the manner of Justin's death? Is it because you were told that by his mother? Did you not think people would wonder if there was more to the story than that?

Either you were being deceptive, or extremely naive, Sally. Either way it doesn't say much for either you, or the Post's journalism standards. You had an obligation before running this column to check out such factual issues before writing.

I also believe in the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. Children have a sense of these things, and you can tell what is true by listening to them. You cannot prove to me they do not exist!

Tomorrow, I plan to start believing in the Flying Spagetti Monster!

E Fav writes -

"I don’t think the psychic actually contacted the husband. I also don’t see that in this case, any harm was done..."

Sometimes the harm being done isn't revealed for years. Case in point:

When my dad died, my Bible-thumping mother caused a bit of consternation among the family and friends by insisting on wearing white to the funeral. Her reason? Why, Dad was now in heaven with Jesus, and his funeral was a time for celebration, not mourning.

That belief of my mom was part of a mindset that delayed the mourning process for her for years. After an initial period of relief and "celebration" that was being fueled by her Xian (?) ideology, depression set in that kept mom from dealing with her grief for years. She's dealt with her grief since then, but the placebo of her religious belief was worse than a placebo. While the rest of us dealt with our grief at the time and on the spot, mom made her life miserable because her unique reading of scripture caused her to avoid a very real issue (I would be remiss if I didn't point out that her minister tried desperately to get her to deal with her grief at the funeral, but she wouldn't hear of it).

Death is hard to deal with, yet we all deal with it throughout our lives. It's the one thing we know is waiting at the end of the line for all of us, yet we treat it as if it doesn't exist - sometimes, daring death by walking on 6th-story window ledges - or by embracing myths of an afterlife, as if death can be overcome. These are self-centered conceits, ie: the belief that we (or our loved ones) are somehow so special that we are the exception to the biological rules. Funny how not a single ACTUAL person (ie: not the mythical Jesus) has ever beaten those odds, isn't it?

Russell Holloway,

Thanks for your post and challenge above. I'll plan to post something that will be more directly responsive to your post, but in the meantime the following may be of interest to you and the other posters.

If nothing else, it provides food for thought:

**************************************************

VICTOR ZAMMIT
A Lawyer Presents the Case for the Afterlife

LEONORE PIPER, medium

Chapter 14. Leonore Piper,
The most investigated medium ever.
“I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud.”
C. G. Jung

One of the most spectacular and outstanding mental mediums who ever lived was the American Mrs. Leonore Piper from Boston. No one, not even the most hardcore closed-minded skeptic, after investigating her mediumship for a period of almost thirty years ever suggested fraud.

Professor William James, Professor of Psychology at Harvard University, personally organized séances for her for a year and a half. Then Professor Richard Hodgson, Professor of Law, the greatest and most notorious debunker in the world took over. And finally Professor James Hyslop, Professor of Logic and Ethics from Columbia University took control of the investigations.

Together they brought hundreds of sitters to her under false names, they hired detectives to follow her and intercepted her mail. She was taken to England where she knew no one and arranged for her to stay with members of the British Society of Psychical Research where she could be constantly monitored.

She would go into a trance, then a control—an intelligence from the afterlife by the name of Dr Phinuit—would take over and start to give a great deal of accurate information and messages from those who had passed on.

Just one example from the many thousands of examples over many decades where Mrs. Piper was deadly accurate in her mental mediumship was when the Rev. and Mrs.. S.W. Sutton participated in a séance in 1893. The Suttons, according to Richard Hodgson's report, were highly intelligent people. They participated in a séance with Mrs.. Piper to see if they could contact their little girl who had recently died. Hodgson supplied a stenographer so that what was stated through Mrs.. Piper about the Suttons' little girl is now held in the archives of the Society for Psychical Research (see Proceedings 1898: 284-582).

Mrs. Piper was able to establish contact between the Suttons and their very much-loved little girl from the afterlife. The information left no doubt whatsoever that the little girl was actually communicating from the afterlife with her mother and father still living on the earthplane.

She confirmed that she used to bite buttons. She identified her Uncle Frank and a friend who had died with a tumor and made reference to her brother by his pet name. She made reference to her sore throat and paralyzed tongue and that her head used to get hot before her death. She referred to Dinah her doll, to her sister Maggie, and to her little toy horse. She also sang two songs, the same songs she had sung immediately before she died. The Suttons had no doubt that they had made contact with their little girl and were especially happy when she reassured them: 'I am happy... cry for me no more'.

One very important skill Mrs.. Piper was to develop was the ability to have two intelligences communicating through her at the same time. An investigator from the Society for Psychical Research (SPR) Richard Hodgson, stated in one of his reports to the SPR that he witnessed an intelligence from the afterlife communicating through Mrs.. Piper to a sitter while Mrs.. Piper was unconscious and at the same time her hand was writing a totally different message about a different subject to Hodgson himself.

Skeptics converted

Initially, there had been a great deal of criticism and skepticism about Mrs. Piper's mediumship. But when the information and the messages from the afterlife were so consistently accurate over so many years, eventually even the second most skeptical member of the SPR, Richard Hodgson, formally conceded that Mrs. Piper's mediumship was genuine and he acknowledged that the information was coming from intelligences in the afterlife.

Richard Hodgson had been expected by the SPR leadership to discredit Mrs.. Piper as he had tried to discredit all established mediums, including Madam Blavatsky and Eusapia Palladino. He had been especially chosen by the SPR and sent to investigate Mrs.. Piper's mediumship in its very early stages. Before he went to investigate Mrs.. Piper he stated that he was going to show how she was able to use tricks so successfully, or in his own words, how Mrs.. Piper obtained information, 'previously by ordinary means, such as inquiries by confederates'.

Fully investigated

Hodgson was determined to expose Mrs. Piper. He engaged private investigators to follow her, to report on whom she met outside her home, to intercept her mail, to invite negative 'dummy' sitters unknown to anyone to her sittings and to do everything possible to prove that Mrs.. Piper was not a genuine medium.

Despite all the opposition and all the obstruction and controls, the incredibly accurate information kept pouring through Mrs. Piper. Then Hodgson started to argue that her control, Dr Phinuit, was a 'split-off ' portion of Mrs. Piper's mind. It was argued that since Dr Phinuit could not identify who he was when he lived in this dimension, he could not be real. Or that because he could not answer certain questions on philosophy then he really did not exist. Or that telepathy explained all. The imputation of these arguments of course is to completely deny the existence of the afterlife.

Hodgson’s limitations

Clearly, Hodgson's objections were not technically valid. Writers on psychic phenomena, even contemporary writers, have been too enthusiastic to write favorably about what Hodgson claimed about mediums. But these writers repeatedly:

• failed to show that he was under a great deal of pressure from the leadership of the SPR to find against mediums

• failed to show that Hodgson's presumption of fraud was a deliberately uncontrolled extraneous negative and intervening variable

• failed to show that the onus shifted onto Hodgson to technically rebut the evidence produced by Mrs.. Piper about the afterlife

• failed to criticize Hodgson for not using science to reject the afterlife

• failed to show that he was not sensitive to nor did he have the essential psychic knowledge to properly administer validity and reliability tests.

In his initial objections, Hodgson himself failed to show that:

• his claim about telepathy was a valid claim

• Mrs. Piper had the competence to read other people's minds

• Mrs. Piper could read minds while unconscious at a séance

• Mrs. Piper's telepathy extended to those who were hundreds of miles away from the séance while she was unconscious

• the accurate information was not coming from intelligences from the afterlife

• the information was being transmitted directly from a split mind.

There is no escaping the issue of who had the technical burden of proof. The onus clearly was on Hodgson to prove that his objections were valid. But he did not prove anything. He just said words to the effect:

'... I can't prove anything at all ... I can't prove fraud, I can't prove cheating, I can't prove trickery against Mrs. Piper but trust me; don’t believe anybody else except me; just believe me because only I have the truth about these things but no one else has’.

That kind of personal, intentionally prejudicial, unsubstantiated dogmatic claim was not the professional way to present rebuttals then, nor is it today.

We know that subsequently Hodgson was to swallow his objections, his rejections, his arrogance, his intransigence against the acceptance of
Psychic phenomena and to reluctantly confess that spirit communication was the only explanation for the consistently accurate information he and others received.

It was really most absurd for these SPR investigators, after continuously receiving brilliant and deadly accurate information about hundreds of different things, to claim that it was not possible for an afterlife intelligence to be guiding Mrs. Piper.

The situation arose that a great number of people accepted Mrs. Piper's afterlife evidence because they received accurate information but the closed-minded skeptical leadership of the SPR didn't. Their strategy was that if they could discredit and destroy Mrs. Piper's control Phinuit, they would destroy any notion that anyone from the afterlife was involved at all.

It must be telepathy!

When the closed-minded skeptics failed to discredit Mrs.. Piper, their new attack was that Mrs. Piper, while in trance—that is, while she was totally unconscious?was reading the minds of those who were at the séance and the minds of others who were hundreds of miles away from where the séance was taking place! There is something most bizarre when the leading skeptics of the Society for Psychical Research (like Hodgson initially, and Frank Podmore) who had never accepted telepathy, turned around and claimed 'it must be telepathy!' when the evidence Mrs. Piper was providing for the afterlife was objective, scientific, foolproof and absolute.

The facts about Mrs. Piper are not in dispute. Different authors acknowledge that Dr Phinuit was her first control. But then one of Hodgson's own friends, George Pellew died suddenly and he took over from Dr Phinuit, manifesting through Mrs. Piper when she was in trance. Hodgson was now in a unique position to ask his dead friend thousands of questions about their relationship. Over the years Mrs. Piper—or more correctly George Pellew speaking through her—answered his thousands of questions correctly.

An incredible test

Over several months Hodgson introduced over 150 sitters at séances to the entranced Mrs. Piper. Thirty of these had known George Pellew while he was alive--the others had never met him. George Pellew was able to correctly identify all of the sitters whom he had known. Most of them sat and talked and reminisced with George Pellew, speaking through Mrs. Piper, as if he himself was there in the flesh. His only mistake was to fail to identify a person whom he had not met since the person was a very small girl!

These meetings were so absolutely impressive that Richard Hodgson wrote his report explaining in detail why he was wrong in his earlier reports and that now he had irretrievably accepted the existence of the afterlife. He claimed that he had communicated with intelligences from the afterlife and he couldn't wait to get there himself!

Hodgson admits Mrs. Piper's mediumship genuine

Richard Hodgson's hard-core skepticism had led him to committing some of the most horrific blunders in psychic history. But they came to an end with Mrs. Piper. He verified the existence of the afterlife saying:

...at the present time I cannot profess to have any doubt but that the chief 'communicators' to whom I have referred in the foregoing pages, are veritably the personalities that they claim to be, that they have survived the change we call death, and that they have directly communicated with us whom we call living, through Mrs. Piper's entranced organism (SPR Proceedings Vol 13, 1898, H 10).

This was quite amazing. Here was someone whose earlier immaturity, relative incompetence and inexperience had helped to destroy the credibility of two international mediums whom he did not take the time to fully investigate. When he did investigate Mrs. Piper he accepted the afterlife because the consistently accurate evidence over the years just would not go away. Hodgson was defeated by a mental medium and he knew it.

Mrs. Piper, the brilliant gifted American medium repeatedly won other battles against closed-minded, many times dishonest negative skeptics. History records this most exciting victory of genuine, psychic mediumship communicating with intelligences from the afterlife.

Giants of science humbled

Some of the most eminent scientists and scholars after scientifically investigating Mrs. Piper's mediumship unanimously agreed in absolute, unqualified terms that Mrs. Piper, had proved the existence of the afterlife. According to Nobel Prize winner Professor Richet's authoritative book about psychic phenomena, Our Sixth Sense (1927):

Frederick Myers, one of the most distinguished members of the Society for Psychical Research stated:

Messages were given to me and certain circumstances indicated with which it was impossible that Mrs. Piper should be acquainted (Richet 1927: 128).

Sir Oliver Lodge, one of the most distinguished scientists this world has ever seen, stated:

I have assured myself that much of the information supplied by Mrs. Piper during trance has not been acquired by ordinary every day methods and precludes the use of the normal sense channels (Richet 1927: 128).

Professor William James from the United States, initially a hardcore skeptic and one of the most inspirational and intellectual giants of his time, admitted:

I am absolutely certain that Mrs. Piper, in a state of trance, knows things of which it is impossible that she should have had any knowledge in the waking state (Richet 1927: 128).

Professor Hyslop, Professor of Logic and Ethics from Columbia University in the United States, a most obdurate closed-minded skeptic who for many years disseminated much anti-psychic propaganda, eventually conceded to the genuineness of Mrs. Piper's mediumship. He founded the American Society for Psychical Research and wrote seven books on the evidence for survival Science and a Future Life (1906); Borderland of Psychical Research (1906); Enigmas of Psychical Research (1906); Psychical Research and the Resurrection (1908); Psychical Research and Survival (1913); Life After Death (1918) and Contact with the Other World (1919).

In Life After Death (1918) he famously wrote:

I regard the existence of discarnate spirits as scientifically proved and I no longer refer to the sceptic as having any right to speak on the subject. Any man who does not accept the existence of discarnate spirits and the proof of it is either ignorant or a moral coward. I give him short shrift, and do not propose any longer to argue with him on the supposition that he knows anything about the subject.

**************************************************

Regards.

But if I get bad medical treatment, I can sue. I can complain to the medical board and threaten the person's license.
Scientists can start studies of the case and learn from my episode, creating better treatments.

With the medium, if he gets it right, he's a genius. If he gets it wrong, the "atmosphere" is not right and the spirits aren't talking.

Basically, a medium is someone who presents himself as person who can do no wrong.

That's not religion. That's not science.
To bundle religion, science and mediums together and say they are all roughly about the same seems, to me, to be rather silly.

Here’s my 2nd hand psychic story: A grieving widow, non-religious and highly educated, made one visit to a psychic who told her that her deceased husband was doing well, in the company of his long-deceased mother and aunt, both of whom she named. The widow knew the name of the mother was right and learned later that the aunt’s name was accurate too. The psychic then told her that her husband wanted her to “fulfill her life” – words the husband had used on his death bed. This brought the widow comfort. She’s since remarried and leads a happy, rational, psychic-free life.

I don’t think the psychic actually contacted the husband. I also don’t see that in this case, any harm was done, though I think ongoing contact would have been harmful and costly. However, legitimate psychotherapists can also do harm, for instance, by keeping people in fruitless therapy and giving them addicting drugs. Religion can do harm by attaching a whole sin/guilt component to the afterlife. In short, I think psychics can be no worse than conventional bad medical treatment and religion, and are better in some cases, because the “treatment” is brief and effective. Another benefit – No threats of eternal damnation if you stop believing in psychics once your trauma has passed.

Link:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2007/07/09/2007-07-09_jim_morrison_wannabe_killed_in_sixstory_.html

I have this response:

Release the tapes!

We are given a less-than-two-minute "excerpt" from the session with the medium.

I am surprised by what little comment there has been about the contents of this clip.

We don't hear anything but the voice of the medium saying things -- "he was liberal and conservative, at the same time" and "he wants to no be remembered for the way he died" -- that would apply to every person who has ever lived.

People on this forum, claiming to have actual knowledge of these events profess that the reading was filled with impossible insights.

Then, release the tape, in its entirety. Also, post a transcript in which to note where the medium has said things he couldn't possibly know. Document those points to show that they are true. Also, provide an affadavit from the medium saying that he had no knowledge before the meeting of any of this.

I know it sounds like I'm a skeptical scientist. But I need the tape, transcript and affadavit in order to have faith in this.

Release the tape!

Mr. Mark,

Touche. Or more accurately, toupe! The toupe fallacy to be exact. The toupe fallacy is a logical fallacy that is exemplified by one who might say "I can always spot a toupe." He says this because when he DOES spot a toupe he is able to say "I spot a toupe!" But he has no idea how many toupes he ISN'T spotting.

It's the same with mediums and other con artists. We have all experienced someone trying to pull a fast one on us, and that reinforces the belief that we can always spot a fast one. But like a good toupe, we have no idea when we are being sucessfully fooled.

Raul Walters,

Your seem to have posted your comment as a superposition of comment posts! (I couldn't resist). Your basic understanding of quantum mechanics is correct, but when you mention "quantum consciousness" you are getting into pseudoscience. Also, there is no connection between the many worlds theory of Hugh Everett (not Everest, I should know) and speculation about black hole connections to other universes (which really isn't science). It's true that the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics requires measurement and observation, which are associated with consciousness, to collapse the wavefunction, but at the same time the many worlds theory does't involve a collapse, and decoherence doesn't require consciousness. As things stand there is really no first-principles scientific foundation for consciousness whatsoever. It is still a mystery. Only neuroscience really has anything to say about it, and even then its only able to produce maps between brain and mind, with no explanation of why we EXPERIENCE consciousness. It's a disturbing shame that science is being coopted by superstition in the popular imagination. Although science has produced nearly all of the seemingly miraculous progress of mankind, and it stimulates the imagination to profound heights of speculation, it's important to keep in mind the science is ultimately a very, very conservative field with the highest standard of proof of any endeavor (except logic and mathematics). Keep in mind the history of science, and realize that at every point in time there have been ideas at the "cutting edge" of science, most of which are ultimately proven wrong (e.g. the four elements of air, earth, fire and water; astrology; geocentric solar system; chemically-fueled sun; luminous ether; the humours; the "plum-pudding" atomic model; Newtonion space-time; the wave nature of light; the particle nature of light (those last two were kind of a joke); the eternal non-expanding universe; the solitary milky-way galaxy; mirror symmetry; rejection of plate tectonics; unhealthy "night air"; canals on Mars).

For the author and her friend to assert that the medium that they met with knew nothing at all about Georginna and Justin before their meeting is to misunderstand how mediums work and to underestimate their tricks and penchant for mendacity. Any decent sleight-of-hand artist performs what appears to be "magic" right out in the open before the eyes of his marks. That's the whole point - if the marks knew how SIMPLE the actual deception was, they wouldn't fall for it.

In the case of mediums and cold reading, the mark is hardly aware of the amount of information they are giving to the medium. The medium need only draw a few pertinent bits of info from the mark to get them started on the full deception. From the second you meet the medium they are working you for info. The better they are the less you feel that they're working you. Just because you don't realize you're being manipulated doesn't mean you aren't being manipulated. Is that so hard to understand?

Mediums are charlatans. I am amazed by the people who rush to the defense of these con men based on their belief that the medium provided some level of comfort to their victim. Well, Freud had great initial success with his patients by loading them up with the wonder drug cocaine. It was only after a few months on the drug that the down side of the supposed cure made itself apparent. Within a short period of time, Freud himself was a cocaine addict and his wonder drug was fully discredited as a cure.

Were Ms Bloom touting cocaine as the agent that eased her pain I doubt that any one here would be waving the "whatever works for ya" defense. Yet here we are, with numerous posters defended con artists whose tricks are no more real nor elaborate than the old cups-n-balls routine of the street magician.

Stop and think for a minute. Go out and rent a few episodes of Penn & Teller's Bull*hit TV series and you'll learn all you need to know about the wonders and magic of mediums and their ilk. It's no mystery. That is, if you really want to know the truth.

A lesson in scientific skepticism:

Let's say that someone comes to you and says "X is true." A good scientific skeptic runs through the following train of logic (or something similar):

1. Is "X is true" a scientific proposition? In other words, is it possible in principle to construct a study or experiment that would produce objective evidence that would compel a belief that "X is true". As an example, consider the proposition "astrology is true." This proposition could be tested by, say, looking for correlations between personalities and birthdays. In fact, this and many other studies have been done, and no objective evidence has ever been found in favor of astrology.

2. If "X is true" is a scientific proposition, what is the evidence? By evidence, I mean objective data based on the standards of scientific investigation (reproducable, peer-reviewed, controlled, etc.) I also mean that the sum total of the LITERATURE on the topic must be compelling; not just one study out of hundreds that has been cherry picked because it suggests support for X is true. An example of fraudulent evidence can be found in the ESP literature, where randomness produces variations around the mean that are cherry picked and falsely asserted to be real effects.

3. If "X is true" is scientific but currently unsupported by evidence, are its proponents working to establish it scientifically? If they are, then the proponents are likely to be credible people regardless of the truth of X. This is the case for string theory, for which no compelling evidence exists but its proponents are discovering ways that one day might establish it as scientific fact.

3. If the proponents of "X is true" are NOT trying to establish it as scientific fact, why not? If you get to this question, you are already at the point where "X is true" is most likely mere superstition. Often, proponents will tell stories of scientific conspiracies to bury the "TRUTH", preventing "cutting-edge" researchers from getting funded or published in peer-reviewed journals. This is bunk. Science has tensions between orthodoxy and fringe, but when you consider all the bizzare ideas that are now mainstream science (e.g. quantum mechanics, relativity), it's clear that science is open to new information.

4. Is the proponent of "X is true" depending on anecdotal evidence? If so, then the level of credibility of the proposition is the same as the level of credibility of every proposition that is supported solely by anectodal evidence. This includes all religions, all occult phenomena, UFOs, alein abductions, etc. An unbiased person would have to either accept all as true or all as fantasy. If you accept all as true then you are up against the fact that they are largely mutually contradictory, which means that your conception of reality is incoherent, which is grounds for rejection of the hypothesis that all are true, which means that they can only be considered as fantasies.

5. Does the proponent of "X is true" explain it using a logically and mathematically well-defined model (e.g. the Copernican model of the solar system, the equations of Relativity, the Standard Model of particle physics), or do they "explain" by analogy? If they explain by analogy then they don't actually know what it means to understand something. Analogies are useful for illustrating principles, but that's all. Using analogy as explanation is a form of bait-and-switch, where the proponent says "X is true", then tells you a moving story about Y that builds your trust in the proponent to the point that you simply spot him the fact that X is true despite the lack of any real explanation.

I've had no experience equivalent to the author's communication with her deceased son. If religion cannot explain such phenemom, Quantum physics may however provide a clue. At least one is not ruled out: One of the basic precepts of quantum physics is that if there is even the remotest probability that something can happen, it WILL happen.

To begin with, recent experiments in quantum physics demonstrate 2 interesting properties. The first of these is that at subatomic levels, particles exhibit a wave/particle duality. Said waves interact in discrete, coherent systems. Such systems are called wavefunctions.

The other significant discovery of our era is called quantum entanglement. This proposes that all matter -- at the subatomic level -- is somehow enmeshed with all other matter.

For example, using beam splitters, it can be demonstrated that a spin imparted to one particle, such as photon, will inexplicably produce an instantaneous reverse spin in another photon -- even though there has been no communication between the 2 particles – and even though they may be light years apart. Einstein called this "Spooky action at a distance."

It is the first property which is,however, most germane to my point: wavefunctions (also called probability waves) – exist as probability outcomes. Now, as long as particulate matter exists in such coherent probability states, it cannot be defined as having a definite appearance or location. Howeve, if a purturbational force is applied, which subsequently causes this perfectly stable wavefunctio -- consisting of billions of particles -- to suddenly collapse, we can then actually see the material result on a macrocosmic scale.

Another way of looking at this is to consider a simple object, such as a table. From our macrocosmic perspective, the table seems to have solid surface. And yet, we know that on a quantum level, the table is comprised of a jittery quantum soup of matter – which has no particular size, shape, location or temporal existence. (Equations universally support time-reversal symmetry)

The critical lesson to learn here, for the purpose of this discussion, is this: In order for us to see the “world as we know it” there must be a collapse mechanism, because it is this collapse which forces all of the quantum probability of the subatomic world to assume the comforting macrocosmic and multifarious forms and temporal points of reference we all depend on for our consensus reality. Tables really do appear solid and eggs, once dropped on the floor, can’t “un-break.” This collapse mechanism, still not fully understood, produces what is called “decoherence.” It is one of the most profound and unanswered questions in quantum physics. (See Schroedinger’s Cat in a Box experiment)

In another theory, a physics student some 30 years ago named Hugh Everest, derived the many worlds approach. In his view, each nanosecond of time in which we act -- turning left instead of turning right (for a simplistic example) -- we "create" yet another parallel universe. This universe then branches or splits off from our original one, and another one of us -- a "duplicate" -- continues on in that universe until making yet another decision or action. This is turn causing more branching. The price paid for this theory is the high overhead of infinite universes. But it also successfully avoids the problem of “decoherence: Wavefunctions never do really collapse – instead, new universes are created.

Consequently, in this theory, there exist infinite numbers of replicated "you" and "me" -- each of us convinced that our latest incarnation and brief existence in a parallel universe, however ephemeral and short lived is nonetheless completely real.

The problem is however, that it would take the unimaginable power of a “black hole” to actually communicate between universes. This is primarily owing to the observation that large objects – in contrast to the particles on the subatomic or Plankian level, which we know can exist probabilistically in 2 different places and times simultaneously – cannot exist in a "superpostional state" (one on top of or equally visible as the other)

The workaround in all of this may ultimately be discovered in new ideas emerging in the area of quantum consciousness. What this means is that since that all matter is presumably entangled -- and that there exist superluminal (instantaneous) communication between it (as in the beam splitter experiments) it stands to reason that our brains, consisting themselves of quantum matter are also likely entangled with all other matter - whether that matter exists in this or a parallel universe.

If may well be that the human mind, absent certain constraints – such as the "consensus reality" upon which we all ordinarily rely for comfort (or, for which our brains are neurochemically attuned – may actually "perceive" objects or “persons” still resident in another form or dimension of spacetime.

I’m inclined to believe this is what mediums may be able to do: Somehow, they manage to see past our “consensus reality” and into other realms of existence – or parallel universes.

To Sorry, Sally.

One more thing - when I contacted the medium, all I told him was that I'm making an appointment on behalf of my friend (not even mentioning Gigi's name). The medium learned of her name, Gigi (without the last name) about 40 mins before the reading.

I'm Justin's friend.

Peace and God bless you.

For an in-depth look at one of these psychic charlatans, please see:

http://www.stopsylviabrowne.com/home/

I've had no experience equivalent to the author's communication with her deceased son. If religion cannot explain such phenemom, Quantum physics may however provide a clue. At least one is not ruled out: One of the basic precepts of quantum physics is that if there is even the remotest probability that something can happen, it WILL happen.

To begin with, recent experiments in quantum physics demonstrate 2 interesting properties. The first of these is that at subatomic levels, particles exhibit a wave/particle duality. Said waves interact in discrete, coherent systems. Such systems are called wavefunctions.

The other significant discovery of our era is called quantum entanglement. This proposes that all matter -- at the subatomic level -- is somehow enmeshed with all other matter.

For example, using beam splitters, it can be demonstrated that a spin imparted to one particle, such as photon, will inexplicably produce an instantaneous reverse spin in another photon -- even though there has been no communication between the 2 particles – and even though they may be light years apart. Einstein called this "Spooky action at a distance."

It is the first property which is,however, most germane to my point: wavefunctions (also called probability waves) – exist as probability outcomes. Now, as long as particulate matter exists in such coherent probability states, it cannot be defined as having a definite appearance or location. Howeve, if a purturbational force is applied, which subsequently causes this perfectly stable wavefunctio -- consisting of billions of particles -- to suddenly collapse, we can then actually see the material result on a macrocosmic scale.

Another way of looking at this is to consider a simple object, such as a table. From our macrocosmic perspective, the table seems to have solid surface. And yet, we know that on a quantum level, the table is comprised of a jittery quantum soup of matter – which has no particular size, shape, location or temporal existence. (Equations universally support time-reversal symmetry)

The critical lesson to learn here, for the purpose of this discussion, is this: In order for us to see the “world as we know it” there must be a collapse mechanism, because it is this collapse which forces all of the quantum probability of the subatomic world to assume the comforting macrocosmic and multifarious forms and temporal points of reference we all depend on for our consensus reality. Tables really do appear solid and eggs, once dropped on the floor, can’t “un-break.” This collapse mechanism, still not fully understood, produces what is called “decoherence.” It is one of the most profound and unanswered questions in quantum physics. (See Schroedinger’s Cat in a Box experiment)

In another theory, a physics student some 30 years ago named Hugh Everest, derived the many worlds approach. In his view, each nanosecond of time in which we act -- turning left instead of turning right (for a simplistic example) -- we "create" yet another parallel universe. This universe then branches or splits off from our original one, and another one of us -- a "duplicate" -- continues on in that universe until making yet another decision or action. This is turn causing more branching. The price paid for this theory is the high overhead of infinite universes. But it also successfully avoids the problem of “decoherence: Wavefunctions never do really collapse – instead, new universes are created.

Consequently, in this theory, there exist infinite numbers of replicated "you" and "me" -- each of us convinced that our latest incarnation and brief existence in a parallel universe, however ephemeral and short lived is nonetheless completely real.

The problem is however, that it would take the unimaginable power of a “black hole” to actually communicate between universes. This is primarily owing to the observation that large objects – in contrast to the particles on the subatomic or Plankian level, which we know can exist probabilistically in 2 different places and times simultaneously – cannot exist in a "superpostional state" (one on top of or equally visible as the other)

The workaround in all of this may ultimately be discovered in new ideas emerging in the area of quantum consciousness. What this means is that since that all matter is presumably entangled -- and that there exist superluminal (instantaneous) communication between it (as in the beam splitter experiments) it stands to reason that our brains, consisting themselves of quantum matter are also likely entangled with all other matter - whether that matter exists in this or a parallel universe.

If may well be that the human mind, absent certain constraints – such as the "consensus reality" upon which we all ordinarily rely for comfort (or, for which our brains are neurochemically attuned – may actually "perceive" objects or “persons” still resident in another form or dimension of spacetime.

I’m inclined to believe this is what mediums may be able to do: Somehow, they manage to see past our “consensus reality” and into other realms of existence – or parallel universes.

I've had no experience equivalent to the author's communication with her deceased son. If religion cannot explain such phenemom, Quantum physics may however provide a clue. At least one is not ruled out: One of the basic precepts of quantum physics is that if there is even the remotest probability that something can happen, it WILL happen.

To begin with, recent experiments in quantum physics demonstrate 2 interesting properties. The first of these is that at subatomic levels, particles exhibit a wave/particle duality. Said waves interact in discrete, coherent systems. Such systems are called wavefunctions.

The other significant discovery of our era is called quantum entanglement. This proposes that all matter -- at the subatomic level -- is somehow enmeshed with all other matter.

For example, using beam splitters, it can be demonstrated that a spin imparted to one particle, such as photon, will inexplicably produce an instantaneous reverse spin in another photon -- even though there has been no communication between the 2 particles – and even though they may be light years apart. Einstein called this "Spooky action at a distance."

It is the first property which is,however, most germane to my point: wavefunctions (also called probability waves) – exist as probability outcomes. Now, as long as particulate matter exists in such coherent probability states, it cannot be defined as having a definite appearance or location. Howeve, if a purturbational force is applied, which subsequently causes this perfectly stable wavefunctio -- consisting of billions of particles -- to suddenly collapse, we can then actually see the material result on a macrocosmic scale.

Another way of looking at this is to consider a simple object, such as a table. From our macrocosmic perspective, the table seems to have solid surface. And yet, we know that on a quantum level, the table is comprised of a jittery quantum soup of matter – which has no particular size, shape, location or temporal existence. (Equations universally support time-reversal symmetry)

The critical lesson to learn here, for the purpose of this discussion, is this: In order for us to see the “world as we know it” there must be a collapse mechanism, because it is this collapse which forces all of the quantum probability of the subatomic world to assume the comforting macrocosmic and multifarious forms and temporal points of reference we all depend on for our consensus reality. Tables really do appear solid and eggs, once dropped on the floor, can’t “un-break.” This collapse mechanism, still not fully understood, produces what is called “decoherence.” It is one of the most profound and unanswered questions in quantum physics. (See Schroedinger’s Cat in a Box experiment)

In another theory, a physics student some 30 years ago named Hugh Everest, derived the many worlds approach. In his view, each nanosecond of time in which we act -- turning left instead of turning right (for a simplistic example) -- we "create" yet another parallel universe. This universe then branches or splits off from our original one, and another one of us -- a "duplicate" -- continues on in that universe until making yet another decision or action. This is turn causing more branching. The price paid for this theory is the high overhead of infinite universes. But it also successfully avoids the problem of “decoherence: Wavefunctions never do really collapse – instead, new universes are created.

Consequently, in this theory, there exist infinite numbers of replicated "you" and "me" -- each of us convinced that our latest incarnation and brief existence in a parallel universe, however ephemeral and short lived is nonetheless completely real.

The problem is however, that it would take the unimaginable power of a “black hole” to actually communicate between universes. This is primarily owing to the observation that large objects – in contrast to the particles on the subatomic or Plankian level, which we know can exist probabilistically in 2 different places and times simultaneously – cannot exist in a "superpostional state" (one on top of or equally visible as the other)

The workaround in all of this may ultimately be discovered in new ideas emerging in the area of quantum consciousness. What this means is that since that all matter is presumably entangled -- and that there exist superluminal (instantaneous) communication between it (as in the beam splitter experiments) it stands to reason that our brains, consisting themselves of quantum matter are also likely entangled with all other matter - whether that matter exists in this or a parallel universe.

If may well be that the human mind, absent certain constraints – such as the "consensus reality" upon which we all ordinarily rely for comfort (or, for which our brains are neurochemically attuned – may actually "perceive" objects or “persons” still resident in another form or dimension of spacetime.

I’m inclined to believe this is what mediums may be able to do: Somehow, they manage to see past our “consensus reality” and into other realms of existence – or parallel universes.

To Sorry, Sally.

One more thing - when I contacted the medium, all I told him was that I'm making an appointment on behalf of my friend (not even mentioning Gigi's name). The medium learned of her name, Gigi (without the last name) about 40 mins before the reading.

I'm Justin's friend.

Peace and God bless you.

To Sorry, Sally.

One more thing - when I contacted the medium, all I told him was that I'm making an appointment on behalf of my friend (not even mentioning Gigi's name). The medium learned of her name, Gigi (without the last name) about 40 mins before the reading.

I'm Justin's friend.

Peace and God bless you.

To Sorry Sally -

-- Didn't the alleged Georgianna write that she didn't give the medium any information beforehand?
J L - Yes. She didn't. I didn't.

-- Didn't she say she met with the medium in New York?

J L - Yes.

-- Didn't she say that she specifically sought out a medium to speak with her dead son, Justin Peterson?

J L - No. I was the one who contacted the medium. I didn't even give Gigi's name to the medium.

-- Wasn't the newspaper story about Justin Peterson's death published in the New York Post?

J L - Yes.

-- Didn't the newspaper story appear before her meeting with the medium?

J L - Yes.

-- Couldn't that begin to explain how the medium would know things about Justin even though Georgianna claims she told the medium nothing?

J L - Sorry, Sorry Sally. Even if you look at all angles, the medium didn't know anything but my first name. And I can't be Googled. I was with Gigi when she had her reading. And the whole session was recorded on tape.

Atheist Science Buff:

I am an athiest scientist (physicist). I'm afraid your conception of science, and specifically of modern physics, is misguided. There are no studies that suggest anything about brain patterns being able to exist "outside the space-time". You write that the reports are anonymous. That should be a clue. Science is the most public of activities; mystery is prohibited from the explanatory framework (although nature itself is inexorably mysterious). It sure sounds cool to say "CERN", but the experiments you refer to don't exist and there's no such known thing as "out-of-universe physical connection." The closest thing I can think of are some French experiments that were able to "transmit" a quantum state from one photon to another physically separated but entangled photon. I put the word "transmit" in quotes because the intrinsic randomness of the process prevents actual information from being communicated.

It's common for people to spout scientific terminology in the service of their wacky beliefs and/or economic interests, knowing that public scientific literacy is sufficiently poor that people will be razzle-dazzled by all the quantum space-time electrodynamic muon quark string theory black hole event horizon mumbo-jumbo. You mention Deepak Chopra. I have read some of his books. He is a crank (that's the physics verion of quack). I think he may also be an M.D., which would make him a quack as well. Interstingly, my mother was a neighbor of his at one point, and the neighborhood consensus was that he is a nasty man. Alot like the mediums being discussed here. Go figure.

Mrs Bloom, my heartfelt condolences on the loss of your son Justin. I appreciate you sharing your story with us. While I believe the phony mediums far outnumber the real ones, true mediums and phychics do exist. I believe you have in fact communicated with Justin, and I'm happy you can now accept his passing, because you know there is another level of existence after this life, and that you will meet again there.

Peace to you.

There is so very much that we don't understand and may never be capable of understanding in this life. I am a Christian, but have come to see the wisdom in being open-minded about spiritual things outside the realm of traditional Christianity. I participated in a "sitting" a nearly three years ago at which a person with psychic abilities was present. She told me some very interesting things for which she did not charge me a penny. Out of respect for the others who participated, I will not disclose any particulars, but I left realizing that there are indeed some people in this world who are more sensitive to the spirits of the deceased than we are. The business of mediums and psychics will always have its naysayers, but what about the fact that police forces have used pychics to track down missing persons and not without remarkable success?

What a minute --

-- Didn't the alleged Georgianna write that she didn't give the medium any information beforehand?

-- Didn't she say she met with the medium in New York?

-- Didn't she say that she specifically sought out a medium to speak with her dead son, Justin Peterson?

-- Wasn't the newspaper story about Justin Peterson's death published in the New York Post?

-- Didn't the newspaper story appear before her meeting with the medium?

-- Couldn't that begin to explain how the medium would know things about Justin even though Georgianna claims she told the medium nothing?

sucker

uhh ok crazypants.

What happened to Mobedda's original comment, which was the FIRST comment on this forum? Is this forum a sham? Mobedda hit the nail on the head by writing (and I parapharase):

WHAT THE HECK?!!! ARE YOU NUTS?!!! THIS IS SICK!!!

This comment goes right to the core of the issue. Georgianna, in her pain and ignorance, is being fleeced by con artists who are content to defile Georgianna's memory of her dead son for profit. What could be more outrageous and infuriating? Who could be more in need of a dose of reality?

Shame on the Washington Post for pandering to feelgood superstition at the expense of truth and reason. Shame again for censoring the public response to the article, thereby deliberately misrepresenting public opinion. Sick.

No disrespect but nothing can be done without God. I am not sure where you landed in all you have been through as far as religion but scratch the religions of the world and just let God. Justin's death was awful I am sure but God could have gotten you to where you needed to be as well as strenghtened you for much more. What happens when you experience something else tragic, off to another medium. Mediums' exist for those who won't let God. God is infinite and will always exist and assist for us and within us if we just but let him. The medium that 'heped' you cannot do anything without the help and permission of God. So cut out the middle man.

Comfort, however intellectually, scientifically or religiously valid, is still comforting. My sympathies to the grieving mother, suspicions toward the psychic, and bemused tolerance to all who believe this article, however touching, isn't posted as controversy bait.

I'm so glad you found the solace you desperately needed.

I’m fascinated by the responses here – mainly because I've never heard such a large, diverse group talking about mediums before. I imagine its something discussed rarely and in hushed tones. I’m learning a lot.

As I mentioned in a previous post, mediums, like organized religion, are selling comfort. I see they’re also in some cases, selling major relief from trials that is not found elsewhere – and not for lack of looking. This woman walked into the medium feeling suicidal and walked out feeling good. I doubt that any other treatment would work more quickly and doubt that whatever the medium charged would be more than psychotherapy or medications.

I think the phenomenon worth studying here is not mediums’ ability to contact the dead, but the origins of the therapeutic effect of perceived supernatural intervention.

Like another contributor here, I once had a very lovely visit from a recently deceased friend. I assumed that it was my imagination at work. Sure felt good though, and luckily for me, the contact was free-of-charge.

I don't believe in psychics, but if it helped you find peace, and I want to write it off to a placebo effect, no matter. The important thing is that you feel better.

I don't know which is more dismaying; that someone educated enough to write something like this would go to a medium, or that so many people would respond to it in such an enthusiastic and affirmative way. "Logic" puts it best - "Complete and utter BULLOCKS."

Danny B - where the energy goes is into the worms and the daisies.

I don't know which is more dismaying; that someone educated enough to write something like this would go to a medium, or that so many people would respond to it in such an enthusiastic and affirmative way. "Logic" puts it best - "Complete and utter BULLOCKS."

Danny B - where the energy goes is into the worms and the daisies.

I don't know which is more dismaying; that someone educated enough to write something like this would go to a medium, or that so many people would respond to it in such an enthusiastic and affirmative way. "Logic" puts it best - "Complete and utter BULLOCKS."

Atheist science buff,

I'm not sure what you mean by "out of universe physical connection". And it's very difficult to understand how quantum teleportation has anything to do with an afterlife. Also,there is no "science of the afterlife".

Science approaches the afterlife in a much more pragmatic and simple fashion - and there have been scientific examinations. All a medium has to do is communicate a fact that could only be reasonably obtained from a dead person. Simple. However, not so simple when the medium has to do this in the presence of someone well versed in their tricks. Someone who is a "psychic" and or magician themselves. I'll repeat - if any of these people were in the least legit - they would have claimed Randi's $$$ long ago. Why haven't they? Anyone?

When cold fusion came along - many people were immediately skeptical because it would overthrow laws of physics - but they still did experiments to make sure. Talking with the dead would overthrow all our physics, biology,and chemistry. It would actually be amazing that any science, including development of the computer you are typing on, actually worked since our knowledge would be so off base. But nevertheless experiments have been done - and serious well constructed ones have found nothing.

Sure people can be convinced of anything - and if it helps them its fine. However, many others falling for mediums end up feeling cheated and swindled.

Great story! It reminds me of two personal visits I received from a friend many years ago, one in a dream-like state, and one fully conscious. There is no doubt in my mind that our spirit guides are with us and help us. All we have to do is ask.

But my real reaction is to the person who said afterlife is against all the laws of physics. I doubt this person is a physicist! In fact, our bodies are a heap of matter brimming with energy, beyond that which is in the atoms contained in our bodies. The law of conservation of energy (among others) would suggest energy must go somewhere.

I'm sorry, a psychic you said? A psychic? What complete and utter bollocks. Honey, that psychic did an act called cold reading and you fell for it. Whether there is an afterlife or not, that psychic talked to NO ONE!

I am sorry for your loss, but start thinking rationally. Next time, surround yourself with friends and family, not some swindling psychic who knows you are grieving and has no problem lying to you.

Everybody, read my lips, I'm only going to say this once!

Psychics are con artists!!! Got it!!!

If you can't understand that simple point, you deserve what you get in life.

I'm sorry to tell you this but mediums are fakes. All of them, every single one. They're cheats who prey on people who are week and have a talent only for making them feel better by lying to them.

I'm glad you feel better but perhaps you should be rational and attribute it to what it is, you getting yourself back together. If you feel that a medium helped you do that then so be it but in reality it wasn't because you had any contact with the dead, who are dead (there are no souls, etc.)

Norrie Hoyt;

I read many of the Oxford University inquiries into extra sensory perception from about 1900,and they were not at all conclusive.They are still available in some libraries.
At that time most people believed in ESP,and the supernatural,and seances were commonplace.It was trendy at the time,and several UK universities inquired into ESP etc,as scientifically as possible,and eventually must have given up.
I'm sure if there was any doubt about ESP,psychic phenomena,fairies and whatnot,universities and others would perhaps still be looking into it.

I'd like you to name one incident "that can have no possible explanation other than psychic contact between the living and the dead through the facilitation of a medium." Just one.
If you can believe that,you can believe in god.
It is no more and no less preposterous.

Ms. Bloom:

Please forgive the pseudonym. I am replying because it appears you misunderstand the nature of cold reading. You don't have to offer anything. The "medium" just offers and offers and it's human nature to take what we want and forget the rest. To exist with the sort of suffering and misery, to the point of wishing for death, is something I am intimately familiar with. It's natural to seek some way out of the muck without resorting to that most final of solutions. I do not mean to deny the validity or power of what you experienced when you visited the so-called "medium". You felt what you felt. But the man who facilitated that was, consciously or otherwise, at his core, a fraud, peddling [false] hope to people in desperate situations.

I have attempted suicide before, and waking up in the ICU not knowing where I am or what day it is, with the sound of my parents crying the first thing to reach my awareness is about the worst I've ever felt. For several days it wasn't clear whether I'd survive or not. I still feel terrible, years later, for what I put them, the rest of my family, and all of my friends through.

I don't pretend to have an inkling of knowledge of what you've gone through with the tragic loss of your son. I know my own experience, though, and what might have been.

Ultimately, though, it's irresponsible of the Post to be giving free publicity to charlatans and frauds who pretend to be able to communicate with the dead, but who merely prey on human frailty and suffering with confidence tricks.

Ms Bloom, thank you so much for sharing your story. I am also shocked at the closed (I should say "slammed shut") minds of people on all sides of this discussion. "There are more things in heaven and earth than are drempt of in" ... most of our philosophies. To dismiss "possibility" is the worst of human flaws. I believe that God is not limited to communicating with us in only one way. He speaks science, He speaks nature, He speaks organized religion. He speaks whatever language we need to hear Him in. He spoke to you in a way that was meaningful to you. And I thank Him for that, and for convincing you to stick around a little while longer! Please don't let the closed minded arrogant people on this post disturb you. Anyone who is so certain they "know the answer" probably dosn't even know the question.

The big secret is that the "science" behind the afterlife is becoming better understood. And I mean real science allowing for existence outside of the body. I'm an atheist and don't buy any religion whatsoever and don't subscribe to beliefs that make me feel better. But I have noticed hints in mainstream science press that led me to anonymous scientific reports that strongly suggest the pattern of a human brain can exist outside the space-time we're physically stuck in. CERN researchers proved teleportation and out-of-universe physical connection in experiments reported in the late 90s in the science press and in Washington Post. I've heard Deepak Chopra is writing about quantum field/afterlife connection now but I saw it in the mid/late 90s here when CERN was doing breakthrough quantum field proofs. Here's a very good book for starters: Evolution's End by Joseph C. Pearce published way back in the 90s. Very few people have picked up on this rather obvious huge development in our understanding of the universe and what's beyond it! Einstein called quantuum field theory "spooky" and wasted the last half of his life avoiding the the next level of science that he helped create. The equipment needed to prove those theories has only existed for a decade or so -- thus this is very new and like I said, few people are clued in.

Where is your Son's "Heaven?" Does each Faith have its own Beliefs and Heaven? If so, is each Heaven on the same level of is one above the other? If not who's Heaven is on the bottom. Is Heaven intergrated or segregated? What happens if you don't believe in C
hrist?

Where is your Son's "Heaven?" Does each Faith have its own Beliefs and Heaven? If so, is each Heaven on the same level of is one above the other? If not who's Heaven is on the bottom. Is Heaven intergrated or segregated? What happens if you don't believe in C
hrist?

I have been Catholic my entire life, and learned of spirits and such encounters, but dismissed it to dreaming or some other type of psychological/psychiatric explanation.

However, I too had been very overwhelmed with the loss of my mother, and had been dreaming about her always in the home where we grew up under her watchful eye and loving wise way. She was generally quiet, a good listener, and expressive with her eyes.

In my last dream set in her room, after her death. I was packing her closet, packing shoes, dresses, etc. I came across a small door in the back left of the closet I had never discovered as a child hiding so many times in this walk-in.

In suprise, I turned out of the main closet door to tell my father of it, he is still living, but in the room was my mother also helping with the packing. I was shocked, scared, and cried to her, "Mom, Mom, is that you?" She didnt turn to me, so I repeated this with tears. She then turned to me and smiled peacefully and said in a reassuring tone, "Oh, Honey . . . " as if I didnt need to miss her, I would be fine and she apparently is.

Oddly, this typing just now brough on a tear or two. Must still miss her . . . frog in my throat.

So, I do believe that those departed can bring peace to us . . . in an encounter as described, or maybe through just a dream. Who knows, but I feel better these days.

This post is from Ms. Bloom, the woman who lost her son Justin. Yeah, that's right, me---that poor, tragic, conned woman.

After reading all your comments about how my medium must have "cold read" me, I did a search on "cold reading" and educated myself about it. I spent most of this evening doing that.

And I have to tell you all this: Glenn Klausner did not "cold read" me. I offered him no information. I didn't say a word. I knew how important it was to not "feed" him. I just sat there and waited for him to say something.

And every single thing he said he got from my son, and other relatives. You people weren't there; you can't know the truth of this.

But I do.

And I feel so sorry for all of you, for being so lost in either skepticism or religious dogmatism.
Dear God, what a sad, sad world. This is what I've learned, today, from the cross-section of humanity I've seen here. Only a fraction of people are open to the wondrous other things out there.

I hope you all find peace.

TO ALL WHO DISMISSED THE REPORTED OCCURRENCE OUT OF HAND:

You might be right but you shouldn't be so sure of your correctness.

If you seriously studied the scientifically investigated cases of "spirit contact" through mediums in the 19th and early 20th centuries, you'd find that things actually happened that have no other possible explanation than psychic contact between the living and the dead through the facilitation of a medium.

You really should keep an open mind. Not to mention not crassly commenting on a mother's bereavement. Shame!

I'm glad you found comfort, but you got scammed. All so called psychics are scammers. You cannot communicate with someone who passed away. These psychics are leeches and parasites who take advantage of people's grief.

I'm so very sorry you lost your son. I am praying and fasting for God (Jesus Christ) to help comfort you all the days of your life and draw you near to him.

Initially,I thought the article was a spoof,like Tinkerbell's comments on another thread,that she
knows fairies live at the bottom of her garden.(even though she hasn't actually seen them).But this is a tragedy,and I sympathize with the poor woman,whose loss has driven her nearly out of her mind.
But I have to agree with those who say clairvoyance is an outrageous scam,that desperate people will turn to,when looking for solace.
It angers me that the Washington Post would print it though,because the last thing we should be encouraging,after the madness of 9/11,is belief in a spooky supernatural world of any kind.
Keep this up and people will be buying ouijaboards
like they did in Victorian times,and looking for ghosts.It is pathetic.
We are trying to get away from such superstitious practices.

ICH LUBIN AUCH!

LAST CHANCE! IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN! FASHTASE?!

Justin just contacted me and asked me to tell his mother that mediums are frauds.

Mr Mark,

Thanks. You probably know that researchers have recently discovered how to produce out of body experiences at will, by causing confusion between the sensory inputs that the mind uses to form its image of the "self". Of course this is something that could reasonably be expected to occur naturally to someone in a condition near death.

Commenting on this particular column, there's at least one proof that mediums and psychics are fake that everyone should believe. Namely that after decades "The Amazing" Randi still has his million bucks! I do believe everyone has a right to their own beliefs, but the purpose of a forum like this can only be to hear from ALL sides. I do wish people would put a little more effort into learning a little about science, since so many issues these days critically depend on it .

I'm very sorry for the pain Ms. Bloom has had to endure in her life. However! There is no such thing as a psychic, reputable or otherwise. However, again! This story illustrates the power of the human mind.

Jacob Jovevz,,,, you need to go POOF!

Oy. It's delusion all the same no matter what form of mysticism/religion you choose. But if it's comforting...

Kudos to One Who Had To Say...

I know this is true. And even if it is not true for everyone it is for me and for many others. And, more and more people are having the gift of this experience.
While I fear death it is with a different mindset than I did some 20 years ago. The fear for me clearly lies in the moments leading up to death if it is sudden. It is a fear that I feel hovering over me. But, the fear I feel now is also remarkably less powerful than what I used to feel.
And, a profound part of my spiritual work consists of freeing myself of the fear that I do have of anything, including death.
This is greatly due to my certainty that "It’s much better where they are. They now have a lot of peace. Hell is on Earth and nowhere else. They’re closer to us than ever. They have a lot of soul work to do where they are. They work at it while they help us. We will be with them whenever we cross. Our lives here are just a big test." Reading this brought me great joy.
Thank you Georgianna Bloom. You are blessed.

Bill -

Excellent points about brain function.

I'm always amused at the out-of-body/light-at-the-end-of-the-tunnel experiences of those seriously injured. When such injuries occur, the brain shuts down higher functions and concentrates on basic involuntary functions. Yet if we are to believe the OOB people, they experience their highest state of consciousness during the time that their brain is functioning at its most-base level. They experience "the other side" at the point where their brains can't even keep contact with the side they're already living on.

Amazing, ain't it?

Have nothing to say about Mrs. Bloom's post but Ja Joz is a hoot, enjoyed reading the comments.

GZIEMANN writes:
Let me get this straight -- all the dead people just hover around, waiting for us to summon them so we can feel better? So the whole heaven and hell thing is wrong? They just stay here?"

The Bible sez that people remain in their graves until judgement day. The Bible says people were resurrected along with Jesus and walked the streets if Jerusalem.

Jesus told the thief on the cross "today, you will be with me in paradise." The thief was the EXCEPTION - everyone else moulders in their graves until Jesus' comes again...which he said would happen during the lifetimes of his followers...I guess god lied...but the Bible says god can't lie...I'm confused.

I don't know where Xians get the idea that you go to heaven to be with Jesus immediately after you die. The Bible says that's not how it works. You gotta moulder, perhaps for centuries or even millenia. So, I guess if you're a Xian, you believe that all those souls are floating around waiting for the mediums to make contact.

On the other hand...

The mind has a physical basis. It is the result of electrochemical interactions in the thousand trillion interconnections between the 100 billion neurons in the brain. Using magnetic resonance imaging, thoughts can be "seen". However, this unbelievably complex organ has a very hard time understanding very large numbers. That is why it can't understand its own function. It can't understand the concept of billions of years, and so often doesn't believe in evolution. It cannot understand the size of the universe - 150 billion light-years, and thus the earth's place in it.

The mind is firmly anchored to its material existence. If you've ever been under general anesthesia, where the conscious functioning of the mind is halted, you know that the time between when you go under and the time that you come to absolutely does not exist for you. Those who are in serious accidents often have no memory of the accident itself. This is not due to some kind of repression, but instead to the fact that the mind is disabled during the time that permanent memories are normally formed. If thought could exist without brain function, then neither of these things would happen.

There are some people that will never believe what I'm saying - they "know" better. But once again - for those interested in reality - the world is the way it is - not the way we may wish it to be.

From firsthand experience, I believe mediums are frauds who prey on those in profound grief. But if this woman has found peace, well, who am I to try to take that from her?

Let me get this straight -- all the dead people just hover around, waiting for us to summon them so we can feel better? So the whole heaven and hell thing is wrong? They just stay here?

I don't want to be disrespectful to anyone's feelings, but once you buy into the idea of "good people" floating around instead of being whisked off to heaven, you inevitably are left to ponder where the not-so-good people are.

That's the jumping-off point for a Stephen King novel, Wes Craven movie, or this week's episode of "Ghost Whisperer".

Why has Mobedda's original comment been removed? WaPo won't censor the garbage spam posts that have shown up several times on this sight, but will remove a valid opinion? That's pretty scary, and 1st Amendment-unfriendly...

I hope that all of the sarcastic remarks some day need to be swallowed like my own cutting remarks to my mother and other "woo-woo" friends of hers. I used to "tell it like it was" as well, until one day I realized that my back problems of 18 years had nothing to do with what I had done here in this lifetime. The person who helped me through this did not charge me one cent. The experience coincided with several strange occurrences in other circumstances in other countries with different people. Ever since the day that I saw what had happened to me (without drugs or hypnosis), I have not had a single back problem since. This is definitely not science, I agree. However, I have absolutely no other way of explaining my good health now except for through a sort of past-life resolution which I really, really didn't even believe was possible.

The day after I had to go back to my mother and ask her for forgiveness of all the horrible, sarcastic remarks I had made to her. Ever since then I have been exposed to more and more experiences that I have not sought out for myself. In fact, I like what I do within these three dimensions just fine thank you, and I have no reason to go out looking for these "paranormal" experiences. They just hit you, and I hope that each one of you who is so closed-minded so as not to believe in the possibility of what Ms. Bloom recounts gets your own wake-up call before you have to come back and do this all over again.

I do agree with the skepticism of some of the posters that one should be wary of con artists, because they do exist. However, listen to your gut and make sure that you are not "reacting" to your own emotions, but "sensing" or "feeling" that this is the right thing to do. (And I am one of the most analytical, left-brained people you'll ever meet now saying this after 3 years of having it beaten into me that it is okay to be more balanced.)

Best of luck to all of you who do not realize the power of your own words and the energy they impregnate onto your own destiny.

Also, congratulations to the Post for taking on this polemical topic and allowing for the discussion to take place.

The writer of the post we are all responding to writes:

"Oh no, this was NOT about having any faith!!!"

Then why, pray tell, was it posted to "On Faith" in the first place?

you don't need to be delusional to be fooled by a medium, just mistaken and needy, for all the reasons noted by others. when you pay a psychiatrist, it's not because you believe they have magical powers, it's because you think they can help you gain the insight you need (it's called insight because it doesn't come from outside one's self, let alone from the "other side." yes, you can trick yourself into some approximation of insight, that's part of the medium's bag of tricks - amateur psychology will impress most folks. to suggest that the medium's success supports the existence of God is awkward, since every mainstream religion rejects the notion of the dead contacting the living (only God can do that) and considers the use of mediums nothing short of idolatry. so now you have skeptics, medium believers, and religious faithful, all triangulating. what a mess.

you don't need to be delusional to be fooled by a medium, just mistaken and needy, for all the reasons noted by others. when you pay a psychiatrist, it's not because you believe they have magical powers, it's because you think they can help you gain the insight you need (it's called insight because it doesn't come from outside one's self, let alone from the "other side." yes, you can trick yourself into some approximation of insight, that's part of the medium's bag of tricks - amateur psychology will impress most folks. to suggest that the medium's success supports the existence of God is awkward, since every mainstream religion rejects the notion of the dead contacting the living (only God can do that) and considers the use of mediums nothing short of idolatry. so now you have skeptics, medium believers, and religious faithful, all triangulating. what a mess.

This is a sad commentary on how some people even in today's modern world still need charlatans and fantasy to help them deal with death. I feel sorry for this person because she is grieving but also being taken advantage of in her grief.

So many skeptics!!! Georgianna, I too lost a child, so I know how you feel. Thank you for sharing your experience. I was raised Catholic but stopped going to church as a teen. I've thought of myself as agnostic as an adult. I was never sure of an afterlife until I lost my baby girl 5 yrs ago. She was only 5 weeks old and died of a rare, undiagnosed congenital heart condition. I too was beside myself with grief. The only thing that made me go on was my then-20-month-old son (he's almost 7 now). Several times after my daughter died, my son would start talking in bed, staring up at the ceiling. I'd hear him say his sister's name along with Mommy and Daddy (he was lying down between us in bed). The first time he did this, he was smiling but then cried and waved bye-bye up at the ceiling. The second time this happened (a few weeks later), I asked him if his sister was there. He didn't answer. I asked him if he saw his sister. Again, no answer. Then I asked him where his sister was. He pointed up to the ceiling where he's been staring and said "right there". It was then I was sure she was and always would be with us.

I believe that the very, very young and those close to death themselves are able to see those who've passed before us. There's too much anecdotal evidence to not believe this. Ms. Bloom, please know that there are many of us out here who are with you in thought and in spirit.

Why does the Post publish ghost stories, however moving or scary? The writer of this story is in grief, and thus is to be excused. A good number of the rest of you are simply delusional and it's depressing to think of the consequences of, say, your right to vote.

Assuming that they both provide about the same psychological benefit to a person who lost a loved one, how does the cost of a medium compare with that of a licensed psychiatrist/psychologist?

I'm Justin's friend. The medium didn't know anything about Justin because Georgianna didn't contact the medium. I did. I never mentioned any name or any background info to the medium.

I was there when Georgianna had her reading. There were a lot of evidence provided. Everything was right on target.

I go to church everyweek and make it a point to read the Bible and read daily messages from Joel Osteen.

My faith in God is now even stronger than ever.

I know Georgianna well. She's not delusional - she's not any of those you wrote negatively. She's not under medication.

Georgianna is simply sharing her experience. She's not promoting medium psychics.

I read all posts - the positive ones, the good ones and the negative ones. You may write that you don't agree with what is written or about the experience, but certianly you can spare those negative comments on Georgianna. She's the one who lost a beloved son. Does any of those who posted negatively had the same experience as Georgianna?

And yes, there is a God.

Typos can be weird. I meant "cool million"

Based on Geogianna Bloom's last post, she, Bob Olson, and Glenn Klausner have a cooling million dollars waiting for them. All they have to do is go to

http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

take a little test, and collect. The money's sitting in escrow, just waiting to be picked up.

I am "Gigi", the mother of Justin, the young filmmaker who died.

I wept when I read Sally Quinn's article about my wonderful son, and his death, and my subsequent agony, and my experience with the medium. Thank you so much, Sally Quinn, for handling the subject of my afterlife encounter with such sensitivity, in spite of the fact that you knew that you and the producers of "On Faith" might be ridiculed for it.

But I must venture forth to be corrective about one thing Sally Quinn wrote. That is: "It's always a matter of faith."

In the matter of a session with a medium, that is simply not the case. When the medium walked in, I was skeptical as hell and terribly afraid I'd be disappointed. I was terrfied of getting ripped off. What if this medium knew how to hack into the emails of the person whose address we were at, and knew from our correspondence just who we were grieving for?? What if this guy were just a total, brilliant sham artist??

Oh no, this was NOT about having any faith!!!

Well, by the time that session was over, I did indeed have faith. AND IT WAS BECAUSE I HAD PROOF. The medium, Glenn Klausner, knew things about Justin, and other things as well,that he only could have learned from Justin. Tiny little details that he only could have learned sitting right there, communing with Justin.

My faith is based purely empirically...I have seen an afterlife encounter with my very own skeptical eyes and ears.

That's why I walked away peaceful.

But don't take my word for it. Google a guy named Bob Olson, a guy who started out more skeptical than I've ever been about anything, and ended up a believer, because the truth just can't be denied. I consider Bob Olson the "medium industry watchdog." He started out on a mission to bust 'em all and hang 'em high, and then got his mind torn apart...

check him out. He has several websites.

"So called Christians" attack a lot of things I suppose. Like lying, adultery, murder and suicide. If a religious person is against suicide are they being intolerant? Psychics and mediums fall into this equally condemnable category. Not because "God says its bad", but because its a crock. Even the ancients knew that.

One is reminded of the joke about the psychic who writes a column for the local newspaper. She walks into the editor's room one day and is handed her walking papers, as the editor editorializes, "of course, you saw this coming."

Thanks for the newspaper article quote, Sally. If you could find it, it's pretty sure any number of "psychic mediums" could also find it and use it as a springboard for their con.

JaJoz,
Sorry, dude, the pills aren't working. Better tell the nurse to try different medication.

Peter,
If you could spell or say something coherent, someone might take you seriously.

To the rest of you hateful, mostly Christian egomaniacs:

It's no wonder we're in such deep dodoo. When Jesus returns, you're going to know the real meaning of Hell.

Wow. That is absolutely insane. This lady is crazy and although there is some good that came from her delusion, the avoidance of her suicide, it can be reasonably considered that she makes any valid point. She is now wonderfully deluded, which is good because she is obviously unabel to cope with reality and must invent one to continue living. Sad.

Yes, Gigi, I agree with you completely about the experiencial aspect of an unsolicited psychic experience. It is as real as any other experience in this material life - such as my experience in typing the words to this post.
And the experiences are a gift to us from God to clue us in to the reality of the world that exists beyond the material world with which we are familiar. It is God's invitation to continue to seek Him - the Way, the Truth, and the Life - until we rest in Him.

Grandma: Can you please go BUNGI_JUMPING somewhere instead of trying to sell RICH folk or MIDDLECLASS folk or POOR folk or SuperStupid potentialy good folk your "Client & Partner" {Conspirator of a HOAX incarnate in the making} via Bob Olson & especially Mr KLAUZNER & THEIR ILKS pLEASE!

Tonka Shame on such a sham!???

The real world has no room for Ghosts nor Ghost_Busters NEVER mind "HOAKS_BUSTERS"!

PS: There are going to be an additional Three_Billion more frontal lobe possesing folk in the next FOURTY_YEARS! And people will live to be TWO_hundred & Fifty YEARS OLD & may even out_live a Giant Turtle! ???????

KEEP BUSY & KEP BUSY & KEEP BUSY! Coochy Poochy is always fun no matter what age one!

Trick O" Treat you are easy to treat or do WE treat O trick ster(s)????

Eeeeeee Haaaaa
Note: tOMORROW mAY eCLAT wILLING: I will reveal the EclatI_on SECRETS OF THE dead! AND not like the "Book of The Dead" that Blogger MR> B_GONE from "HOAX_BUSTER" CAN recommend to wean you off of! YA ya!

VOTE: Mitt_ROMNEY for PREZ! Thank You!

This post is playing over on the "A Note from Sally Quinn" page:

"I am "Gigi", the mother of Justin, the young filmmaker who died.

I wept when I read Sally Quinn's article about my wonderful son, and his death, and my subsequent agony, and my experience with the medium. Thank you so much, Sally Quinn, for handling the subject of my afterlife encounter with such sensitivity, in spite of the fact that you knew that you and the producers of "On Faith" might be ridiculed for it.

But I must venture forth to be corrective about one thing Sally Quinn wrote. That is: "It's always a matter of faith."

In the matter of a session with a medium, that is simply not the case. When the medium walked in, I was skeptical as hell and terribly afraid I'd be disappointed. I was terrfied of getting ripped off. What if this medium knew how to hack into the emails of the person whose address we were at, and knew from our correspondence just who we were grieving for?? What if this guy were just a total, brilliant sham artist??

Oh no, this was NOT about having any faith!!!

Well, by the time that session was over, I did indeed have faith. AND IT WAS BECAUSE I HAD PROOF. The medium, Glenn Klausner, knew things about Justin, and other things as well,that he only could have learned from Justin. Tiny little details that he only could have learned sitting right there, communing with Justin.

My faith is based purely empirically...I have seen an afterlife encounter with my very own skeptical eyes and ears.

That's why I walked away peaceful.

But don't take my word for it. Google a guy named Bob Olson, a guy who started out more skeptical than I've ever been about anything, and ended up a believer, because the truth just can't be denied. I consider Bob Olson the "medium industry watchdog." He started out on a mission to bust 'em all and hang 'em high, and then got his mind torn apart...

check him out. He has several websites."

I don't think Georgianna's experience is necessarily that unique. Whether psychic or not, I know a lot of people who have had some kind of experience with seeing a deceased love one sometime after death. I especially think these dream experiences are pretty common. I had one also when I lost my grandmother.

But I don't attribute it to a visiting spirit. I think it was a dream and a memory. Even so, it was incredibly comforting, and for me at least, that was enough. Even if this is the only life we have, and if there is absolutely nothing afterwards, I find comfort in the fact that our loved ones often change our lives, and impact them even after they are long gone. The love you get from a spouse, child, parent, etc., even after this person dies, does not disappear. It stays with you, and can provide you peace and comfort even after they are long gone.

To Zephora Krebbs; my husband drowned accidentally, I hope you never experience such a loss even though you deserve to. To Patty, thank you.

First, I must say, I am very sorry for Mrs. Bloom's loss-a terrible terrible thing that those who have experienced the death of family members can sympathize with, but of course, the loss of a child is different- there is no closure for this- ever-there can at best be an accomodation and coping with the daily pain.

However, Mrs. Bloom, I have to also state that you ARE using a medium/con man as a crutch-and you really ought to try at some point in the future to recognize that, when you do not feel as fragile as you do right now. I STRONGLY urge you to watch the Derren Brown programs on the SciFi channel-he has debunked the whole ages-old "mystery" of mediums, who use (as posters above have noted) the "cold reading" method to "communicate" with the dead. Here's a link to the "tricks" of the cold reading here:

http://www.channel4.com/science/microsites/M/mindcontrol/behind/clairvoyance.html

It APPALLS me that the Post would actually provide a link to this Klausner charlatan-who I'm sure is quite nice-the "rapport" that he builds with people who seek him out is part of the con/mind game-he's "reading" your cues-but remember, the power of the human mind to convince itself of ANYTHING, KNOWS NO BOUNDS. PEOPLE BELIEVE WHAT THEY WANT TO BELIEVE.

An example of what Derren Brown did on one of his programs: He took a group of Spanish-speaking college students, and told them he would give them a "psychic" reading of themselves. He spent a few minutes with each, and then he gave them each an envelope, with their "reading" enclosed within. The group read their personal reading, and then they individually discussed on camera the "truth" of what was said about them, in that reading. Almost to a person, they came on camera saying how astonished they were that someone could have read them so perfectly, how this person could have known the things that he knew about them-some of them said, they had never believed in this sort of "psychic" stuff before having this reading by Derren Brown-but now, they were believers.

And then Derren Brown revealed: EACH ONE OF THE STUDENTS HAD BEEN GIVEN THE EXACT SAME "PSYCHIC READING." Their after-reactions were very interesting-you could see how sheepish and embarassed they had felt to have gushed so freely about believing that this man knew all about them, to have been so gullible-but it was hugely instructive.

This dude Klausner I'm sure made you, Mrs. Bloom, feel better-but Klausner's con game, can, in some ways, be compared to anti-anxiety drugs or anti-depressants-it is a kind of drug-induced amelioration of the pain -AND THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT-IF YOU REALIZE THAT'S WHAT IT IS. Valium can actually do the same thing-it is a wonder drug-it is NOT the evil addictive drug that so many ignorant people and doctors make it out to be-it takes away the obsessive going over of things in the brain, the anxiety - and it allows people who have suffered a loss to function relatively normally. Valium also, unlike most every other drug of its type on the market, has virtually no side effects-it's one of the safest drugs on the market.

But here's the difference: You take a drug like Valium because you KNOW that it is intended to help with the pain of a loss, to help deaden that pain, to use as a crutch until the worst can be handled on a day to day basis without the need for a crutch. When you start believing in con men like Klausner, then you are really continuing to just perpetuate a fraud, to live in a fantasy world-I guarantee that Klauser says much the same thing to others who come to him about their loved ones as he said to you Mrs. Bloom, if not the exact same thing. I hope in the future you will be able to see that.

Klausner is nothing but a fraud because he takes your great vulnerability and utter willingness to believe in what he, Klausner can do to make you "see" your son, your "certainty" that what Klausner is saying is "your son speaking to you" and he uses it to con you-just like Derren Brown did with that group of Spanish students. You are believing what you want to believe, and Klausner knows that, and plays you like a violin.

Good luck. I hope you see the light and reality in the future-about the con man Klausner and how vulnerable you were at the time you believed in him.

Cabin John said: "Jon White completely missed the point. It wasn't Christianity that helped, or could help, this mother who needed help. Thank Goodness she isn't a brainwashed Christian like him, because if she had gone to her dogmatic minister for comfort, and he had tried to force her through the "Christ is the only way" straightjacket, she's still be in extreme pain."
I respond that I DO understand her point, and even re-inforce the reality behind her experience. Everything that is good comes from God - remember, Jesus cured servant of the pagan Centurion because of that soldier's faith in Him. Cabin John wrote angry words about Christianity - goodness knows why.
Georgianna is in a place similar to one I was in at the age of 28 when I had my atheist eyes opened by similar unsolicited psychic experiences to the reality of the non-material world. Subsequently, I began examining the belief systems of the world's religions, searching for explanations of the phenomena I had experienced. My search, clandestinely led by the Holy Spirit, eventually brought me back to Christianity, in which, before one can understand many of its truths, one must first believe - which I now did. And now, Georgianna has the seed of belief that she lacked previously.
Now, given the understanding that Christians are also human and have their limitations and failings in the ability to communicate the Christian message, I strongly urge Georgianna to patiently re-examine the claims of Christianity, to discuss its claims and beliefs with those Christian ministers or/and priests she finds open to such discussions, and to follow the lead of the Holy Spirit toward the Truth. Georgianna, know that I am praying for you in your search for the Truth. Your Brother in Christ, Jon

E Favorite,

I consider myself a Buddhist Orthodox Christian, but I don't belong to any church. Before you say I'm crazy, let me say this: Buddhism is a philosophy, not a doctrine, so it's quite possible to be a Christian / Buddhist. And I'm Orthodox in the sense that I think the Old Testament is a load of hooey, but I believe in the teachings of Jesus. I think Jesus must have been at least influenced by the teachings of Buddha, as they're too similar to be coincidental.

No, I haven't told clergy about my experience. For two reasons: 1.) I think clergy are mostly egotists and are too busy worshiping themselves to be interested in the TRUTH... 2.) my story above is so personal that I haven't really found a great way to tell it, without sounding arrogant, myself. I'm still trying to "get it right."

Thanks, and Cheers.....

Ms Bloom has of her own free will elected to post her story in a public forum. She and everyone else should be prepared and accepting of bloggers who point out that mediums are con men, and that averring that one can contact the dead is an absolute fraud.

We have all felt grief to one level or another in life, perhaps not at the level of Ms Bloom, but we are all human. We all love and lose. That such grief serves to give cover to charlatans like spiritualists who play upon their marks' raw emotions and hopes is abhorrent, and the practicers of such ghoulish practices as palm reading etc should be remorselessly called out and condemned for their chicanery.

David Ellis - are you a practicing Christian? If so, have you ever told clergy or members of the congregation abut this? I'de be interested in what they said.

Do you think your experience is tied to the supernatural?

Well, so much for my project of being satisfied with life, so that when I die, I just die. I thought it was a good idea. I know there are many who are disappointed with life, who look for a better one in the next world, but I just want to accept everything as it is given to me. It seems like the goal of many religions anyway. What do I do now?

So sad about your son though. I am so happy that this helped you out. Vivid dreaming is an interesting subject in itself.

Damed if I do, damed if I don't. If I say that this is all nonsense and delusional, I'm damed for being insensitive. If I say nothing then I have to live in a world where nonsense like this flourishes unabated by reason.

Mrs. Bloom, please accept my condolences on the loss of your son Justin.

In the past 5 years my mother and father have passed away. Two weeks ago I lost my best friend of 35 years, Jenene. She married my brother 33 years ago and her death has left a huge void in all of my family's lives. I do know that my mom and dad have helped me thru situations since their deaths and fully expect Jenene's gentle soul to help me in the future.

The hypocrisy of the "Christians" who are attacking your story is so ridiculus. They try to tear apart any belief other than their christian beliefs as unbelievable. Yet we are told by them to believe anything that comes from their beliefs. You would think that their faith would comfort them and would not cause them to attack non-christians. The sad thing is that they never realize their unreasonable behaviour.

Below is the number one entry on Miriam-Websters definition of hypocrisy:
1: a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not; especially : the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion

Great piece. I had a similar experience after the death of my dog, Lucy. We had been together for 17 years and though I never contemplated suicide, I was terribly depressed. But through a LOT of meditation, Lucy (or maybe God or an old friend...) told me what she was going to look like, and when I was going to see her again. I could also sense her presence coming from the west, and I knew she had been reincarnated. With this intuition, the internet, some kind souls and a little bit of what could only be called divine guidance, I found Lucy in her new body. She looked EXACTLY like the picture I'd seen, and I met her on the EXACT day I'd been told.

As an interesting side-note, I learned something else that's both profound and relevant, politically. It is this: Souls are reincarnated at BIRTH, not at conception. At least in the case of dogs. During the gestation period, a fetus is much like a sperm; it can move independently and has it's own operating system, but it's not a separate soul. How do I know this? Well, I was told that I would see Lucy 7 1/2 weeks after she died. The gestation period for dogs is about 9 weeks. So obviously Lucy couldn't have been reincarnated before she died! And I didn't know at the time that dogs took 9+ weeks to be born; I only put this all together several months later.

One last thing: God makes us WORK for answers. He/She doesn't tell us the whole deal, and it's not written in a book. We have to work for it, and progress often comes slowly, although sometimes we get blinding revelations, like your story here! Anyway, Lou (Lucy) is looking at me now with an old shoe in her mouth as I type this..... and it's a nice day outside.... I'm a very lucky guy to be re-united with my best friend. And with every passing day, I'm sure that Lou (Lucy) and I are connected at some very fundamental level. It's called love, for lack of a better word. Thanks for "listening"... and peace.

Vinny, you say that "I do believe what the bible calls a resurrection will one day take place."

Prove it

Vinny doesn't have to prove it. It's called faith and if you don't have it or want it, that's fine, but don't begrudge other people who do.

As far as the medium goes, I have never been to one. I have been to a pychic though and she was the real deal. She never knew my name, but called out my grandfathers and gave me a lot of information about my future husband including his name and where he lived.

Don't knock this poor woman until you have had a loss.

You dislike how cruel some of the comments are regarding this article?

I submit to you that encouraging people who are suicidal to seek peace by going to a psychic is inherently DANGEROUS. Legitimizing this quackery by associating this author's story with the Post is, at best, irresponsible. If some poor, desparate soul follows in the author's footsteps rather than seeking professional counseling and has a bad outcome as a result, then morally, the publication of this article is an act of negligence.

Psychics are either woefully self-deluded, or they are liars and thieves. I do not think the comments on this forum have been nearly stern enough in conveying the notion that while this woman's story is sad, DO NOT follow in her footsteps.

Zephora,

That was a horrible comment to make, but since Karma is just as fake as spiritual mediums, you don't have much to worry about, besides your own peace of mind.

To anyone who beleives in spirit mediums or psychics, do the smallest most cursory investigation of a technique called "cold reading". It will tell you all you need to know about how you are being conned.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan

Are you kidding me?

The Washington Post would be well served by not printing such claptrap under their name.

Okay, mea culpa.

What I meant to say was that your life doesn't end with the death of others, be they loved ones, or equally valuable strangers. The medium stole your money in return for making a mockery of what should otherwise a genuine and healthy recovery.

What made me fly off the handle was the fact that so much space in a newspaper is being given to what seems more aptly located in a person's confidential medical file.

To Zephora Krebbs

That was perhaps one of the cruelest things I've read. Is it your own personal misery that inspires such a hateful comment.
Karma will definitely not be kind to you.

Your are so close to the truth, but not quite there...

You say that Hell is only on Earth, but that simply cannot be true. If evil exists here on Earth, then when evil dies it must exist someplace other than Earth in the same way that your son now exists someplace else after he died. The place where all evil exists after it has died here on Earth is Hell.

As you describe it, your son is in a place where there is "a lot of peace" and "a lot of soul work to do." This cannot be Hell, because there is peace. This cannot be Heaven because there is "soul work." This can only be Purgatory.

Once your son's soul work in Purgatory is done, he will go to Heaven to be with God, his only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, Mary, the Angels, and the Communion of Saints.

Your son has proven to you the existence of Purgatory. You have seen, and should now believe. Blessed are those who believe without seeing.

Your are so close to the truth, but not quite there...

You say that Hell is only on Earth, but that simply cannot be true. If evil exists here on Earth, then when evil dies it must exist someplace other than Earth in the same way that your son now exists someplace else after he died. The place where all evil exists after it has died here on Earth is Hell.

As you describe it, your son is in a place where there is "a lot of peace" and "a lot of soul work to do." This cannot be Hell, because there is peace. This cannot be Heaven because there is "soul work." This can only be Purgatory.

Once your son's soul work in Purgatory is done, he will go to Heaven to be with God, his only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, Mary, the Angels, and the Communion of Saints.

Your son has proven to you the existence of Purgatory. You have seen, and should now believe. Blessed are those who believe without seeing.

Reading through these responses, It occurs to me that mediums are a lot like clergy:

– some are good, some are bad

- they generally charge for their services

- they’re selling something that doesn’t exist(the supernatural) and something that does (comfort).

Yes, most mediums are cons.

Yes, the Bible states that mediums/psychics/wizards/witches are evil and in with the Devil.

However, there are several ideas of what happens when we die. Do we cease to exist? Honestly, how many people wish to believe that. The Bible claims we shall go to Heaven if we were good in life. That would be an Afterlife. Psychics claim that souls that do not "go into the light" hover around here on our "plane of existence" and wander around sometimes saying hi. Non-psychics sometimes claim these "spirits" decide to scare the crap out of them in their home.

Let us be honest. We are simpleminded creatures existing on this giant ball call Earth. We only understand what we can. We aren't able to grasp certain concepts that just can't be "proven" yet. We are rather primitive when it comes to death other than what we see - a body which ceases to live.

But we can believe what we experience, whether it is a true account or a simple trick of our unconcious mind. Do not dispute the ideas or experiences of others. Just because it didn't happen to you doesn't mean it didn't happen.

And remember, Death is only another beginning...

you just don't know what that beginning is until you experience it.

Whoa... I am amazed by the venomous reactions of all of these so-called Christians.

Personal attacks on someone for their beliefs is bad enough...

But how weak can their own confidence be - that they carry on like this - in a way designed so specifically to demean and to hurt someone with whom they disagree...

What can anyone possibly learn from such animalistic people...?

"Religion is for those who are afraid of hell. Spirituality is for those who have been there."

After reading both the article by Ms. Bloom and the comments that it generated it seems that there a several issues in play. Those that believe that this woman was "healed" by working with a medium, those that think it's full of BS, and others that are pushing/debating fundamental religious ideals.

My question for her is that did any other individual offer a helping right hand that didn't have their left one out asking for a payment? Surely, others in her family were suffering as well, what did they do?

"Justin’s friend told me that psychics approached him who didn’t know Justin was dead..."

And the con is on. And to the immense shame of the WaPo, they provide a link to the con artist's website, where he promotes himself through this article.

As others have said, this is nothing but cold reading. Here's yet another link to more information on this con: http://www.randi.org/library/coldreading/index.html

After reading both the article by Ms. Bloom and the comments that it generated it seems that there a several issues in play. Those that believe that this woman was "healed" by working with a medium, those that think it's full of BS, and others that are pushing/debating fundamental religious ideals.

My question for her is that did any other individual offer a helping right hand that didn't have their left one out asking for a payment? Surely, others in her family were suffering as well, what did they do?

There is so much going on here in this story and the replies...

I'll be honest. In replying to Georgianna's post, I'm afraid of the casually caustic comments and ridicule that may come my way (I suspect that many here who write so brutally would never actually SPEAK in such a way, but that's a whole other subject). So, here goes.

Georgianna has, in a truly powerful and deeply vulnerable way, described a wholly unique and personal story. I find it interesting that no one doubts the veracity of her tale -- only that she may have been duped by charlatans, con artists, and/or Satan (or one of his minions).

I've had my own experience with mediumship. I've attended Spiritualist meetings where messages given had a significant positive impact on the intended recipient. While I'm not attracted to the Spiritualist church, I have a great amount of respect for the work that happens in them. The people who attend and who give messages are dedicated to the art of surrendering and allowing something greater than themselves.

And, I've had the experience of being a medium. It was not something I was expecting, but the outcome was at once startling and quite beautiful.

I was sitting with a friend at his house. I suddenly heard an inner voice say, "we're now going to show you how to be a medium." It was said in the same manner that a corporate trainer might say, "now let's look at how to create formulas in Excel."

Being adventurous, I sat there and waited. Within a matter of seconds, I was aware that someone else was in the room. I heard an unusual name and mentioned it to my friend. It was his mother's nickname -- the one that her friends always used when they would call up for the latest neighborhood gossip. She had passed several years ago.

I then heard from this inner voice that I should tell my friend that his mother had received the roses he sent her. He told me that when he goes to his hometown, he always takes roses to his mother's gravesite.

These two pieces of information appeared to be coming out of nowhere. I'd never known my friend's mother, much less one the unusual nickname her neighbors would have used. And I've never been to my friend's hometown or his mother's gravesite.

The next thing that happened was remarkable. In a closed room with the AC on (it was summer and very hot outside), the fragrance of roses wafted through the room. We both could smell it and it lingered for quite a bit.

I am not a medium (except for that one experience), but I have had many experiences that show me anecdotal proof that there are more things in heaven and earth than we know (with apologies to Wm. Shakespeare).

I am grateful to Georgianna for telling us her story, to the Washington Post for hosting these fora, and to every person who posts and shares their own perspective.

What a wonderful experience? You have been truly blessed!

Re: Jacob Jozevz On: Death pays all debts

Wow. That was nuts. I actually tried reading that for a couple of seconds. I think I need a shot of whiskey after that. Jeez!

Georgianna, as a dear and personal friend of Glenn Klausner as well as former neighbor. I wanted to thank you for writting such a wonderful and inspiring piece on this subject. I too have learned so much from his readings and the education of the afterlife. Being neighbors we spent a lot of time speaking of this matter and I questioned everything. He has made me not afraid of the afterlife and to actually live as intended and look forward to the afterlife.

Thank you again!

Regards,

Susan Fox

What is healing? Mrs. Bloom's experience with a medium has helped her heal from her grief. This is proof enough that she has not been conned--she got precisely what she needed.

I myself would never go to a psychic but Mrs. Bloom's experience closely parallels experiences of those who undergo shamanic healing. I'm currently learning about shamanism as part of my Masters in Public Health--again, I'm not sure I'd go to a shaman either, but, from what I've read, many people who undergo shamanic healing have the same sort of transformative experience that Mrs. Bloom describes--and they feel healed. I don't believe in a spirit world, per se, but I can accept it as a metaphoric and symbolic world that somehow helps people come to terms with and overcome grief, chronic pain, etc. If it's all about belief and visiting a medium or shamanism results in such a transformation, the result is no less REAL than if it had come about via counseling or psychotherapy.

An interesting thing about shamanism is that there is evidence that it is between 30,000 and 40,000 years old--that's woolly mammoth teritory-- and that it is practiced world-wide using the same fundamental principles.

I'm amused by all the Christians condemning mediums as charlatans. They fail to see the irony that their religious belief systems are as questionable as anyone else's. Our human reality is that we have no idea what happens after death, or if some part of us continues on. All we have is anecdotal evidence.

Washington Post - you should be intellectually ashamed for kowtowing to the pseudo-Religious at the expense of your integrity. This woman's story is sad and touching for all the wrong reasons and negligently promotes the use of (long since debunked) "mediums" aka psychics. The worst part of this 'article' is its ability to be used as a product testimonial for these peddlers of grief to propagate.

I am distressed that the Post decided that this was a worthwhile item to publish. What next, some "true" alien abduction stories? You have descended to the level of the "Star" and other tabloids. This item simply encourages other unfortunate people, such as Elkofan, to fall for the charlatans who prey on them. "Reputable psychics"? Hah!

I am sorry for your loss, and glad you found a way to come to peace with your grief. But it pains me that in doing so, you have now become a mouthpiece for an industry that preys on people like you for fun and profit. Mediums are not real; they are con artists. Perhaps your experience with one allowed you to find enough peace to keep going. In this case, any medicine is good medicine even if that medicine is a lie. But while your experience might have been uncommonly positive, it is unfortunate that you have chosen to respond by bolstering this lie. With this article, you are supporting an industry of charlatans that offers false hope to the desperate and the grieving for money. It is goulish. I am sure your son is in a better place. But wouldn't it have been better to come to terms with that with a friend, a loved one, or even a therapist? They can help you grieve and to understand that death is a natural, unavoidable part of our experience on this Earth. It should not motivate us to give money to wizards and start believing in ghosts.

"And when we hugged we melted into each other, and I felt him go through me like a beautiful song."

This is the most moving piece of poetic truth I've read in years.

I don't follow you all the way... but I believe you felt it. Thanks!

What the hell have you been smoking?

Waht the hell have you been smoking?

Washington Post - you should be intellectually ashamed for kowtowing to the pseudo-Religious at the expense of your integrity. This woman's story is sad and touching for all the wrong reasons and negligently promotes the use of (long since debunked) "mediums" aka psychics. The worst part of this 'article' is its ability to be used as a product testimonial for these peddlers of grief to propagate.

Vinny, you say that "I do believe what the bible calls a resurrection will one day take place."

Prove it.

I would love to believe, but question why the spirits never tell us about life on the other side, nor about God and heaven. Why would tht b e? Could these spirits be deceitful, and actually be evil?

I would love to believe, but question why the spirits never tell us about life on the other side, nor about God and heaven. Why would tht b e? Could these spirits be deceitful, and actually be evil?

I would love to believe, but question why the spirits never tell us about life on the other side, nor about God and heaven. Why would tht b e? Could these spirits be deceitful, and actually be evil?

I too, have prayed not to wake up for the last 40 months since I came home from work to find my husband drowned on our property. I too, have not taken my own life only because of the people who love me, primarily my elderly parents. I have vowed that when they are gone I will take my own life, but your post gives me hope. I intend to locate a medium and see if I can find the peace you have found. I completely understand how you feel and have longed to 'hear' from my husband for these long years. Thank you so much.

I would love to believe, but question why the spirits never tell us about life on the other side, nor about God and heaven. Why would tht b e? Could these spirits be deceitful, and actually be evil?

I too, have prayed not to wake up for the last 40 months since I came home from work to find my husband drowned on our property. I too, have not taken my own life only because of the people who love me, primarily my elderly parents. I have vowed that when they are gone I will take my own life, but your post gives me hope. I intend to locate a medium and see if I can find the peace you have found. I completely understand how you feel and have longed to 'hear' from my husband for these long years. Thank you so much.

I don't think what Georgianna has express here is faith.

Think about it -- she says she has positive proof that her son exists.

Sounds like a kind of science to me. A poor science that is easily disproven, but certainly not "a faith."

She doesn't take it on faith that her son exists, she says she has evidence in what the medium told her and in the apparition she saw.

In that case, why is it on a Web site dedicated to discussions of faith and religion?

Oh, I see the advertising now ...

I am embarrassed for the Washington Post. I can't believe this amateur essay is associated with such a fine paper. I feel duped clicking the link from the left side of the home page -- now I will never again click a link from that section of the Web site.

This is one very troubled woman - to believe that a 'medium' can offer anything other than a 'con' is truly disturbing. She needs help from a competent doctor not a fake.

"Hell is on earth"? It certainly is hell when your mind is simplistic and feeble and going to a medium is the only way for you to handle grief.

Mobedda:

This is sick and utterly stupid. If we are ever to have anything resembling rational discourse we have to stop excusing belief in utter nonsense and fraud just because the believer has had some pain in life. Many people have lost sons and people they loved and it didn't lead them to believe in "ancient, erotic, matriarchal, godess worship." What tripe. I am glad Mobedda comment got in there first to knock some sense into people before reading the following peans to idiocy.

Dear Georgianna, 10/10/07

I received a call from my cousin and was told to read your article. I had told my best friend just this past Saturday about a conversation I had with a fellow worker about religion and the afterlife. You have said in part of your letter exactally word for word what I had tolo her. I am 62 years old and have lost both of my parents and I can only express my deepest sorrow for your loss of a child. I know in my deepest of feelings that every word you said is true. I have always felt this is our hell if we want it to be. If you have any further articles or sessions please email me .

Thank You,
Diane Ridgway

Dave wrote:
"I do however see this beautiful letter as an example of how we "see what we want to." Psychology has a powerful effect on relgion."

So true. People believe what they must in order to live the lives they want or are required to live.

Ms Bloom believes she contacted her dead son because it's what she MUST believe (given her personality) to continue living. People who are members of religious cults share their strange beliefs because it's what they MUST do to continue receiving the positive attention of other cult members. Many parents of soldiers serving in Iraq believe that's a just war because it's what they MUST believe in order to carry on with their day-to-day lives.

It's a psychological truth we see all over the place -- all the time. People will adopt whatever beliefs they must to get their desired outcome. Ms Bloom desperately wants to believe her son isn't gone forever. Therefore, she believes she contacted him through a psychic.

Wants and needs guide our beliefs and perceptions. It's something scientists have known for a long time: confirmation bias.

I feel for you, Mrs. Bloom.

You say this is working for you and I will take that at face value.

It took a beautiful fall day to help my wife reach peace with her father's passing. She felt something that day and now we have a bird sanctuary in our yard where it comes back now and then. Her dad loved birds. My father passed many years ago, but whenever I narrowly miss having a car wreck, I swear it seems he's there in the seat next to me, helping me hold the wheel steady. I am, at best, an agnostic. I can't explain these things. I feel that trying to do so will make them go away like a mist, so why ruin a good thing?

As for some of the posters here, they range from awfully rude and insensitive, to self-ish and self-righteous (yes, I'm talking about our old pals, proselytizing Christians--I hope you really do get to meet Jesus one day so He can point out what jerks you've been here on earth. Did He just show up at inappropriate moments in the Bible to hassle people, or did He behave like a good teacher, waiting for the teachable moment?).

To the rude people, I bet you know what karma is. It's legit. You think you're so smart by acting so snarky, but maybe you're really unhappy about something? Karma's not just a gag line for Earl on TV, you know, although that show has a gentle heart beneath its brutal humor.

I'm noy buying any of it.

Why would Justin need to speak through a "spirit medium"??

Please explain this.

Why can he not speak directly to YOU?

I DO feel your pain. I lost my on dad when I was 15. He was only 38. A horrible experience. Suicide was thought about. But we work through such thoughts, just as you did, realizing how selfish and pointless such actions would be.

I do believe what the bible calls a resurrection will one day take place.

I do not believe Justin is floating around today. If so, then prove it.

Which obviously you cannot. Spirit mediums are messing with the demons. Which is why the bible condemns them emphatically.

I wish you well.

What? I find this all too hard to believe. Even though you feel better, it just is not for real otherwise we would all be doing that with our dearly departed.

No, sorry folks, Mobedda hit it right on the head. (and there are several posters who could stand to hear his message as well...)

From traditional religion, to U-U, to Buddhism, to "Goddess worship" (whatever that is) and now to this charlatan "psychic".... This poor woman is being led astray by her need for reassurances that fit her preconceptions... She needed to "contact" her son again and that's what this con man provided...for a fee of course...

"stand for something or fall for anything"

I am glad this experience worked for you. I am pretty liberal in religious beliefs, though I am a practicing Christian. If this experience gave you comfort, then is was certainly authentic.

I do however see this beautiful letter as an example of how we "see what we want to." Psychology has a powerful effect on relgion. (And other things too.) If I really NEED/WANT to see a UFO, I will probably one day see a UFO. If I really have a NEED/WANT to see the Virgin Mary's image on a slice of toast, then I will probably see her image one day on a slice of toast. If I really NEED/WANT to see and connect with those who died, well.......

I am glad this experience worked for you. I am pretty liberal in religious beliefs, though I am a practicing Christian. If this experience gave you comfort, then is was certainly authentic.

I do however see this beautiful letter as an example of how we "see what we want to." Psychology has a powerful effect on relgion. (And other things too.) If I really NEED/WANT to see a UFO, I will probably one day see a UFO. If I really have a NEED/WANT to see the Virgin Mary's image on a slice of toast, then I will probably see her image one day on a slice of toast. If I really NEED/WANT to see and connect with those who died, well.......

I share your pain, but the anguish I feel now is due to the fact that you are being grifted by con artists who are exploiting your loss. Don't cheapen your son's memory. Don't exchange the actual moments of sharing between you and your son for the poisonous snake oil balm you are indulging in now. I'm sorry for your loss, but you are willfully introducing a cancer into your remaining relationship with your son.

I recommend watching the movie "Nightmare Alley" starring Tyrone Power about a carnival mentalist. It pretty much sums up the character of the people you have fallen prey to.

I am glad this experience worked for you. I am pretty liberal in religious beliefs, though I am a practicing Christian. If this experience gave you comfort, then is was certainly authentic.

I do however see this beautiful letter as an example of how we "see what we want to." Psychology has a powerful effect on relgion. (And other things too.) If I really NEED/WANT to see a UFO, I will probably one day see a UFO. If I really have a NEED/WANT to see the Virgin Mary's image on a slice of toast, then I will probably see her image one day on a slice of toast. If I really NEED/WANT to see and connect with those who died, well.......

tlawrenceva asked:

"Great, then I guess all of the strangers who came up to other family members, telling them that Justin was trying to reach them was all just an elaborate hoax?"

I'll ask a question in return. I'd imagine that a young person falling to his death from a building ledge would get quite a bit more news coverage than, say, a 65 year old man dying of a heart attack, wouldn't you? I'd also remind you that it's a "psychic's" JOB to look for people who've suffered a loss.

I agree with the "shame" poster. I cannot believe this is on the washingtonpost.com with no comment or apparent balance.

This section is what really got me:
Then I knew I'd either die from all this, or learn to be very strong. Nietzsche said there can be no middle ground, no gray area. Either die, or get emotionally as sturdy as an ox.

Afterlife encounters will give you that strength.

No. You already had that strength. And to say that "afterlife encounters" somehow help in a way beyond being a crutch like most other things is just irresponsible, untrue, and misleading.

It pains me to see people getting swindled like this. My only sister died last year, at 19. After our father passed away when we were young, I became a second parent to her. My mom has gone to a psychic to help her through the grief and sure, it's helped. But at what cost? It's just a crutch to help her get through this difficult time. What if she later realizes that there is no afterlife, she won't see my sister again, then it'll be all the more difficult to deal with that realization because she will have spent all of her life avoiding the finality of her grief rather than contending with it.

I'm glad that the writer is no longer suicidal and can still feel close to her son. But there are ways to feel better and closer that do not involve lies and conning. A bowl of ice cream is also comforting, but no one's writing about how that gives you the strength to go on.

Anonymous has got it right, but for the wrong reasons.

Mediums are cheaters not because their work with "familiar spirits" is an abomination, but because they, like all people, do not speak with the dead.

The mediums are play-acting, working from a script designed to emotionally manipulate people.

Anybody who has told a white lie knows that a little honest deception can make people feel better, or keep people from feeling bad.

But, for myself, I don't think I could face everyday knowing that my inner peace was built on a conman's well paid-for words.

The medium should have paid me!

The sense God gave me tells me that mediums and Spiritualism and seances and all that are just rubbish designed to pick the pockets of people in grief.

Great, then I guess all of the strangers who came up to other family members, telling them that Justin was trying to reach them was all just an elaborate hoax? Are all of you saying that not only are the reputable psychics she sought out shills, but that that strangers coming to friends of her family members are in on it too? Come on.

The pain is real, the psychics are not. These evil predators take full advantage of the grief of people like this poor woman. If we were meant to communicate with dead people it would be much easier than searching around for a 'real' medium.
Anyone who thinks this has anything to do with Christianity should pay attention to this verse:

"There shall not be found among you [any one] that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, [or] that useth divination [or] an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things [are] an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee."
Deuteronomy 18:10 (KJV)

Cary,

Regarding mobedda's post, I try to remind myself that the cutoff age for most if not all posting is 13....which goes a long way in explaining the puerile nature of many reactions.

God keep you, Ms Bloom.

Cary,

Regarding mobedda's post, I try to remind myself that the cutoff age for most if not all posting is 13....which goes a long way in explaining the puerile nature of many reactions.

God keep you, Ms Bloom.

Dear Ms Bloom, please accept my deepest thanks and congratulations. Faith and conviction are the only sources that can sustain our lives and make them meaningful.

Such immense spiritual courage!

THANK you!!!

Joe

We all work through our grief in different ways. If this works for you, so be it. I am happy for you.

Shame, shame on Newsweek and the Washington Post Co. for giving such an unbalanced report on mediums.

There is a mountain of evidence -- 500 years old, that mediums are cheats and cons only out to take money from people at their most vulnerable.

Where's the other side of the story?

In regards to the remarks of "cary", I think that you have misconstrued the purpose of this forum and the nature of the oversight which is given the remarks. While I'll grant you that Mobedda's comment was hardly warm & supportive of the point of view presented in the piece, it was also not a personal attack or gratuitously rude. It went directly to the point of using spiritual aids to commune with the dead. *I'm pretty sure that Mobedda's against it!* :D

I personally am offended that you seem to believe someone should be monitoring the comments, and blocking or removing those which might hurt someone's feelings just because they express strong disapproval of another point of view.

While I've got sympathy for Ms. Bloom's depression, and am glad that she thinks that she's found a way past it, I kind of hope that her visits with her grandchildren are monitored by someone other than her spirit friends!

I am glad that you've found peace. I pray that he comes to visit you often. I too believe, and have believed for some time that the Spirits of those that we Love and Love us, are always there, for us!!

I'm so very sorry for Ms Bloom's loss and it's good that she's past the desire to commit suicide.

There is, however, NO compelling evidence that people who've died continue to exist as conscious "spirits" of any sort. All the laws of physics tell us that it simply cannot happen. Unfortunately, once a person's dead, they're gone for good. We can remember the person, though -- and the good that they've done for others does change the world in a positive way. Not only that, the matter that made up a person's body will eventually break down and recombine with other elements to form new life! That's all we can be sure of -- and, really, isn't that enough? I think it is.

As for the vultures calling themselves "psychic mediums" who prey on the grief of people like Ms Bloom... They sicken and anger me. I suppose some of them really do believe they're channeling communications from beyond the grave but it's just as likely they know exactly what they're doing and are just in it for the money. (And there's certainly plenty to be made. Grieving people are easy marks.)

For people who are interested in learning how "psychics" use the "cold reading" technique to persuade people they're in contact with the dead, I'd recommend Joe Nickell's article "John Edward: Hustling the Bereaved". You can find it here:

http://www.csicop.org/si/2001-11/i-files.html

Georgianna, I cannot fathom the pain you feel after losing your son. Nor do I know the pain of losing a mother. I read your article very carefully and slowly, and I appreciate your honesty and courage to write something so emotionally revealing. I do not share your belief in an afterlife. I think that as people grow older, we are forced to deal with the loss of our dear loved ones, and our own physical bodies slowy fall apart before our eyes. I agree with you that coping with the acute pain of death requires either suicide or a concious mental change (or for some, a downward spiral into addiction). I did not get the impression that you were trying to persuade anyone to accept your beliefs, but just to share your personal experience and pain. I do not expect your mind will be changed by my message either. But don't you have to struggle with creeping doubts that the "medium" was a very experienced and effective shyster? Do you believe you went to see him with open, objective eyes? Don't you think your seeing your son's ghost as a baby is evidence that it really was just a dream of your mind's own creation? Also, I wish you would have elaborated on what you think the purpose and ramifications of this "just a big test" physical life we are living in now are. I would guess that your gradual abandonment of the traditional patriarchal religions has led you to believe less in a "wrath of God" and more towards "Mother Earth's great big happy eternal family" kind of view. If I could convince myself that were true, I am sure I would be much more happy and carefree, and much less uncertain about things in my day-to-day life. If my wife dies before me, I don't see how I would be able to avoid suicide, addiction, or blowing a mental fuse that causes me to cling to the belief that she's not really dead - just waiting for me in paradise. If I could avoid all three of those things, I know that I could not be happy anymore. I hope your granddaughters live long and happy lives, and I hope you stick around to share many more years with them. Good luck on your journey.

a) Jon White completely missed the point. It wasn't Christianity that helped, or could help, this mother who needed help. Thank Goodness she isn't a brainwashed Christian like him, because if she had gone to her dogmatic minister for comfort, and he had tried to force her through the "Christ is the only way" straightjacket, she's still be in extreme pain.

b) A "reputable psychic" is someone who doesn't try to take advantage by, for example, wheedling excessive amounts of money out of their clients. Not such a hard concept.

I sympathize with the pain in your life. I am sorry that you grieve.

But you are being cheated. Any person who goes to a medium is being cheated.

Such "readings" are hoaxes. Mediums use emotional manipulation and guessing techniques that are thousands of years old.

They are con men.

I listened to the very, very short clip you provided. In it, the medium says that your son was "liberal, but conservative at the same time." He says that your son wishes to not "be remembered for the way he died" but the way he lived.

These are noble ideas, and they apply to every person who has every lived. The medium's reading to you was the same reading he gives to all the people he gives reading to. It is a trick. It is a fraud.

You did not mention whether this reading was provided for free or whether you had to pay for it. If you had to pay for it, you were cheated.

Why would someone who has the alleged ability to speak to the dead charge people for this service? Why would they insist that you cross their palms with silver?

The only answer is that it is a trick, a con. They want to make money an easy way -- by saying the same set of vague generalities to people who are in pain.

There are no reputable mediums. There are only mediums who charge less than others.

Read more about mediums here:
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/104/story_10482_1.html

this is amazing....

this is amazing....

Hmmm... Wow! Gosh.
In the words of the immortal sage, John Lennon:

"Whatever gets you through the night... it's alright, it's alright ..."

I agree. Mobedda's comment was calous.

As they say in "Return of the Kings", 'death is just another journey everyone has to take.'
I think a person can always find peace and comfort through any religion they believe in. I'm glad you did! I'd love to experience a near death experience, but the timing is not up to me.
Suicide is never an answer. It's a cheap way out of this miserable world and all it does is hurt the ones we leave behind. Personally, I rely on the Lord Jesus Christ to get me through life (and into heaven). He's never let me down and He always answers my prayers. Seriously. ANyway, I'm glad you've found value in life and I wish you happiness and peace of heart today and forever.

in regards to mobedda's posting the screeners at the post should do a much better job. this post was offensive and damaging to a woman who has already suffered enough.

mrs. bloom,
i am so happy for you that you have had this experience with your dear son. thank you for sharing it with all of us.

That was beautiful and faith restoring. You are living to serve as a beacon for other as well - people like me and other readers who recieve your message of hope. I hope you enjoy and inspire your wonderful granddaughters and the rest of your family for as long as you are able, until we all cross over and are reunited. Thank you, thank you.

That was beautiful and faith restoring. You are living to serve as a beacon for other as well - people like me and other readers who recieve your message of hope. I hope you enjoy and inspire your wonderful granddaughters and the rest of your family for as long as you are able, until we all cross over and are reunited. Thank you, thank you.

That was beautiful and faith restoring. You are living to serve as a beacon for other as well - people like me and other readers who recieve your message of hope. I hope you enjoy and inspire your wonderful granddaughters and the rest of your family for as long as you are able, until we all cross over and are reunited. Thank you, thank you.

That was beautiful and faith restoring. You are living to serve as a beacon for other as well - people like me and other readers who recieve your message of hope. I hope you enjoy and inspire your wonderful granddaughters and the rest of your family for as long as you are able, until we all cross over and are reunited. Thank you, thank you.

Just what is a "reputable psychic"?

"...[W]e are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses..." (Hebrews 12:1). Thank God for your confidence-restoring and eternal-life-illuminating experience, and return to your origin - Christianity - which alone contains the Way, the Truth, and the Life. At best, anything else is diversionary; at worst, anything else may lead you to eternal destruction.

A good friend of mine lost her father unexpectedly. She had been very remorseful over the fact that she never had a proper chance to say good-bye to him. A friend recommended she go to a reputable psychic. She did, and in fact made contact with her father and was able to find closure with him. Her description of the experience was very similiar to what Georgianna describes here.

Your commentary brought me to tears. I've often thought as a mother, how terrible it would be to precede your children in death and the very emotions you have described have been what I've known I would definitely feel. I pray for your continued peace and hope that you continue to reach your sweet baby boy.