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GOD BLESS YOU MY FRIEND! JUST KNOW JESUS IS THE ONLY WAY AND WE MUST BE UNAPOLOGETIC IN PROCLAIMING THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST!!!!!!! GOD IS A LOVING, MERCIFUL, AND JUST GOD! WE MUST REMEMBER HE IS PERFECT AND WE MUST FOLLOW ALL HIS WAYS! (AS I BELIEVE DR. JAMES DOBSON & OTHERS ARE DOING). MANY PEOPLE DID NOT LIKE WHAT JESUS SAID WHEN HE WAS ON EARTH HOWEVER THE TRUTH IS...JESUS IS THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE, NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER BUT THROUGH HIM - JOHN 14:6!!!! SO WE MUST SHOW NON CHRISTIANS LOVE AS WELL AS LETTING THEM KNOW THE TRUTH...JESUS AND ALL HIS WAYS...EVEN IF IT HURTS. IT HURTS US ALL, BUT THAT'S WHAT MAKES US REALIZE HOW MUCH WE NEED JESUS AND HIM ALONE!

GOD BLESS!!!!!!!!!!

Like it or not Biblical Christianity is a reality in the US and every place else.

Google

Peter – thanks for the long reply. I was recently a liberal Christian – Episcopalian, so I know what you mean. I’m sure I’d be still welcomed there as an atheist, as long as I didn’t make too much noise about it. But it was uncomfortable for me, hearing about God and Jesus all the time (on Sunday morning – never in any other activities), especially knowing that so many parishioners and even clergy were expressing or advocating beliefs they didn’t hold themselves – as a means of continuing to enjoy the warm community. Sorry to be harsh, but a community with deception at its core is not ultimately healthy, no matter how warm.

I know from what you’ve said that you don’t hold a lot of those beliefs, so I wonder what it’s like for you to be among people with numerous different beliefs, some of which are contradictory (Jesus either rose from the dead or he didn’t) and not all of which can be true.

As for Brian McClaren – I only know him from this forum (see his current essay and responses) and while I appreciate your suggestion, he’s too ambiguous for me (I often feel that way about clergy). I will check out the book, though, on Amazon or at the bookstore.

Hello, E Favorite.

I only get online M-F so sorry for the late reply. I appreciate your question. The reason I am involved in a Christian church now has partly to do with my previous interest in Buddhism--particularly the Dalai Lama's teaching that Western Buddhists are generally well-advised to practice within the religious tradition of their own culture. I saw few Buddhist churches or communities, and my approach to faith is communal as well as individual. But additionally, I was impressed by the very kind, thoughtful and responsible people I met who shattered my previous conceptions of what "Christians" were like. More often than not, they had a high respect for science and reason (and in may cases a high level of education), and had the same passions for social justice that I have. They were not exclusive and not focused on the afterlife, the "end times" or any of that other junk that sells books. My reflections led me to believe that Christianity, within my understanding, best addresses for me the human need for forgiveness and resolution for past wrongs and provides a blueprint for understanding the living God. (I say that realizing that other religious traditions effectively answer these needs for others.)

I actually agree with Matthew also, that these intrinsic values predate Christ. I believe that they have been put into the human heart by God and that God works within all religions. At the same time, I believe that all religions at some point, in some way or another are corrupted by evil--often in the form of nationalism or aligning itself with power (i.e. the Inquisition, the Catholic Church at the time of the Reformation, the Anglican church at the time of the Puritan and Quaker movements, and the current mixing of Christianity and power-politics today, just to give some Christian examples), but God can still use those religions to reach God's people.

I also agree with Matthew and the other posters who wrote that American Christians are not speaking out loudly enough about Ann Coulter and the abuse of religion for political ends. However, some of those same posters criticized (inexplicably) Mr. Livingston for doing just that.

E Favorite, you say you are interested in hearing more about the non-divisive practice of Chrsitianity I've attempted to describe here in this thread. I would recommend a book to you that came out a few years ago: "A Generous Orthodoxy" by Brian McLaren, which has had a big effect on my thinking. Also, if you ever have time on a Sunday morning to visit a church just to see what it is like, the mainline denominational (UCC, Episcopalian, Methodist, Disciples of Christ) churches located in the downtowns of large cities, in troubled urban neighborhoods, or near universities are a good bet for being welcoming and comfortable to visitors and appreciating a diversity of viewpoints. Many of them see the faith journey just as that--a journey--and are there to help people on their walk wherever they are. And it is very unlikely that folks will bombard you with inane questions about whether you're "saved" or not, because contrary to the rantings of TV preachers, that concept isn't in the vocabulary of most liberal Christians.

BRAVO !

And please don't forget the other GOP hacks like sean hannity who echo coulter and openly tout her sacrilege and evil.

Peter: “As a person who has only recently committed myself to the Christian life, the draw for me was an inexplicable sense that when I strive to be a better person, I am more in harmony with the universe and a higher and loving intelligence that wants me to live a moral life.”

That sounds like a very compelling experience. However, this “higher and loving intelligence” sounds very general – unrelated to the stories of Jesus or the God of Abraham. You say you’re new to Christianity. Where were you before, with respect to religion?

Regarding Matthew’s reaction – as far as I can tell, what he says sounds pretty on target – the intrinsic human values that predate Christ, the overbearing Christians, the moderate but quiet Christians who are upset about the overbearing branch, but to timid or unengaged to react. You seem to be in an entirely different category – almost a lone Christian with a personal Christianity that is whatever you make it. Which takes my back to my original question. Why Christianity? It seems like you had some kind of awakening, a transcendent experience – and you named it God – and not only God but Jesus. Why not Buddha, or another God,or just a higher power?

Another poster here, Campbellite, seems similar to you – thought she has specifically selected Catholicism, which to her version is completely mythological

I’m very interested in hearing more about your type of Christianity, but don’t want to be demanding. Whatever you can share is appreciated.

Matthew, you have misunderstood or misread my posts. Nowhere did I say that Christianity has an exclusive claim on goodness or compassion, nor did I ever say he introduced the concepts, nor did I say that non-Christians who do good are emulating his teachings. Yes, I've heard of the Buddha and have been influenced by Buddhist and Jewish teachings as well. The point of my response to you was that your experiences with those who call themselves Christians has largely been negative because they haven't been reflecting the goodness of the Christ that they claim to follow. (You even said this in your last e-mail.) Of course I don't expect followers of the Jewish religion or other religions to try to emulate Christ's teachings, and I did not say that, but it's certainly reasonable to say so-called Christians should.

Anyway, I'm not interested in "converting" you, so fear not. As a matter of fact I'm looking to my Jewish friends to help me better understand their understanding of the Truth, that I may learn from it. Thank God for them, they model their faith through being fair and giving me as a Christian the benefit of the doubt, and I model my faith by responding in kind. Unfortunately, if my experience with followers of Judaism was limited to posts such as yours, I would probably think as little of your religion as you do of mine.

To E Favorite:

"It sounds like you believe in a supernatural and Christian God, but don’t believe in some of the basic tenets of Christianity, is that right?"

I guess my way of framing it would be that I give the words and deeds of Christ priority over everything else in the Bible, while also believing that those other parts of the Bible are there for a reason and can help illuminate the Truth of Christ's teaching and purpose. I guess some Christians would say that makes me a liberal.

"You think a good atheist, or whatever, is just as good as a good Christian..."

In general, yes. We humans have limited ways of judging "good" in other people, but we should never judge someone as "bad" or "less good" merely on account of their beliefs about metaphysical concepts.

"...and will reap the same reward."

If you mean the afterlife, I really don't know the answer to that. My faith is concerned more with life on this earth. I do know that in an earthly sense, people (regardless of their beliefs) who live the way God desires us to live-- hardworking, unselfish and honest, among other traits-- tend to be 'rewarded' with self-respect, satisfaction, a sense of purpose and a clear conscience. I can only trust that the afterlife, however it may be, works in a similar way.

"I wonder what the draw of Christianity is for you."

As a person who has only recently committed myself to the Christian life, the draw for me was an inexplicable sense that when I strive to be a better person, I am more in harmony with the universe and a higher and loving intelligence that wants me to live a moral life. Conversely, when I strive only to please my egotistic, selfish tendencies, I feel separated from that higher Love. I also had a sense that I was forgiven for some of the truly hurtful things that I have done to others in the past. That is probably all I should write in this space, but suffice it to say that it was not through being "persuaded" by the likes of Ann Coulter!-- or even the likes of Billy Graham for that matter. Becausue the draw (as you call it) was instinctual and experiential rather than intellectual it is something I don't speak about unless asked--and admittedly it is easier to discuss it in anonymity on this blog to talk about with most of the people I know in everyday life.

"Most good Christians I know, in addition to following the teachings of Jesus on earth, also want to secure a place in heaven. You seem to think (unless I got it wrong) that you – and I – already have a secured place."

Again, I just don't think about it all that much because I don't understand it. Concern about "going to hell" plays absolutely no part in why I decided to follow the way and teaching of Christ. If some others want to say that makes me "not a Christian," well, the sticks-and-stones playground adage seems appropriate in this context.

"I also assume that if you stopped believing – based on lack of evidence, etc., that you would continue living your presumably good, decent life, and not be concerned about how to be moral if there’s no God. Is that right?"

I don't know. I would like to think so. Mother Theresa was apparently able to do so.

Matthew: amen. and while we are calling out the crowd who are assembling to pat themselves on the back for making the world safe for bigotry of one sort or another, let's now not forget Dr. Laura. Yesterday she just complemented the fine folks of San Diego for being so wonderfully well behaved and mutually supportive for the evacuees in Qualcom stadium, and who didn't wait for the government to help, in contrast with those in the superdome in New Orleans, who looted instead, complained about the government not helping, and generally blamed Bush. Unless she was commenting on the pernicious effects of humidity, she was making a racist remark of the same sort that Coulter makes when she preaches to her kind.

Peter,

As a jew, I need no assistance in understanding the goodness of Christ, or the values he stood for - as a man, not a deity. I also know that those values and concepts were not introduced to humanity by Christ, just repeated by him, so even claiming that others who live compassionately are somehow emulating Christ's teachings smacks of exceptionalism, and is deeply offensive to the 5 billion humans who are NOT Christians.

Ever heard of the Buddha? The point is, the values taught by a fellow who called himself the Christ are deeper than religion - they strike to the core of humanity, and Christianism has tried to lay claim to these values ever since the first bible was published. Baloney.

I also see none of these values reflected in the Christianists who I meet - not the fellow on the airplane who, upon learning my religion, asked me if I were interested in being "saved;" not the zealots who threw blood at my sister on her way to a family planning clinic for birth control; and, no, not even the good missionary workers I met in Ecuador, who offer development assistance to poor indigenous tribes, but with a subtext of conversion as the real goal.

Until so-called "real" Christians stand up to save the victims of their co-religionists from the consequences of supremicist actions, I'm unlikely to put much truck in the compassionate pleadings of the silent few. Sorry.

I am heartened at several posts noting that Livingston is missing the point. That he and his kind can just as easily be characterized as the ones who have abandoned orthodoxy because they can't accept it (cause it won't sell). Not a judgment there, just a reality. Coulter and her kind didn't hijack the real church, those who pretend they are the real church are in denial that they have drifted from it. I am just sitting back watching factions within Christianity engage in intermural and intramural warfare which makes all parties look silly to the rest of us.

My biggest problem with Christianity besides the hypocracy is why they think everyone around the world needs to be saved or become a christian. The world evolved pretty well before christians came upon the scene. So why is the only way christians do missionary work is if they can preach the bible? Can you imagine a group coming to the poor sections of American and state they will help rebuild the infrastructure only if you learn their religion?

Peter, thanks for getting back to me. It sounds like you believe in a supernatural and Christian God, but don’t believe in some of the basic tenets of Christianity, is that right? You think a good atheist, or whatever, is just as good as a good Christian and will reap the same reward.

I wonder what the draw of Christianity is for you. Most good Christians I know, in addition to following the teachings of Jesus on earth, also want to secure a place in heaven. You seem to think (unless I got it wrong) that you – and I – already have a secured place.

I also assume that if you stopped believing – based on lack of evidence, etc., that you would continue living your presumably good, decent life, and not be concerned about how to be moral if there’s no God. Is that right?

Matthew, one other comment:

"Ahem. Well. The entire history of the Christianist movement - which began a couple centuries after Christ's time on earth - is one of oppression of weaker peoples and war-waging to convert the "unsaved."

I would respond that throughout history there have been plenty of atheists who have modeled Christian teaching better than many of those calling themselves Christians. Throughout history, there have also been plenty of Christians quietly doing God's work in their communities even as it has been impossible for them to stop the murder going on in God's name. They are the unknown and unsugn heroes, while the killers in high places say their prayers out loud and get the glory from this world.

Matthew, you write "I have never met a true Christian" and therein lies the problem. While none of us who aspire to follow Christ are "true Christians" (and don't trust anyone who says s/he is), it sounds like nobody has tried to reach out to you. By reach out, I don't mean to save your soul or any of that hogwash, I just mean to reflect the goodness of Christ to you as a fellow human being. The very fact that there is the concept of an Ann Coulter or a Pat Robertson belies the fact that many of us have grown smug and judgmental and put more stock into ourselves than into our comission to relate to others as Chrsit would have us do. I'm sorry.

Sir,

It would be truly refreshing if even half of those individuals who identify themselves as Christians behaved as such. With all due respect, I believe that it is wishful thinking on your part to assert that the vast majority of so-called Christians practice tolerance and inclusion. Granted, the Ann Coulters of the world represent an extreme element that is an abomination to most reasonable people, Christian or otherwise. However, Christian Identity is rapidly gaining an overbearing foothold in the workplace, in the government, in the military, in the media, and in every day life. Those of us who for one reason or another do not belong to "the club" cannot escape the suspicion and disapproval of those that preach "love thy neighbor." I understand that some Christians feel that their beliefs and lifestyles are under attack. To them I would say that tolerance begins at home and in your own hearts. The notion that we live in a so-called "Christian Nation" is understandably threatening to others. Jesus said "follow me," not "obey me, or else."

I'm enjoying this thread, but I think we need to look a bit closer at our political system in order to understand why the Christian Right and media play the roles that they do. I do not agree with any aspect of the Christian Right's agenda as far as I can tell, nor am I content with the state of the American media (which repeats as fact statements made by politicians that have been proven false, and assumes that journalists can cover subjects that they know nothing about - see democraticpiece.com for some of my critiques of Reuters, NYT, and WP).

However, I caution that we should not ignore the incentives that encourage the Christian Right (CR) and the media to behave as they do. Many of these incentives our embedded in the American political system, which, as a presidential system, promotes disagreement between the two political parties. Second terms tend to be 'lame duck' sessions for our presidents because the opposition party wants to win the next election; the opposition benefits by constraining the president and demonstrating that his party cannot get the job done.

Similarly, this system benefits those with 'black and white' political positions that can motivate the masses and appeal to their fundamental identities. In this way, attention is focussed and the arguments are difficult to rebut as they appear so genuine and socially just (for those 'true believers' among us, of course). This is very much what Bush and the Christian Right seek to do ('with us or against us!'). It's the same strategy used by populist presidents in Latin America (Hugo Chavez) and Islamists in the Middle East (not to mention Ahmadinejad; a conservative, but not an Islamist).

The US media is private and its primary goal is to make money. For some outlets, they can appeal to markets that desire 'objective' news coverage (the NYT and WP would, traditionally, be examples). These are the ones people on this thread tend to like. But for most, like the NY Post and Daily News, its those gripping headlines that get the reader to buy the paper (which, in turn, gets the commercials). So you can blame these outlets if you wish, but you are better off recognizing that they are going where the money is.

In order to affect positive change in our political system, to get our politicians and media to behave as we wish, the people on this thread need to make their voices heard; not simply by posting on threads of this nature, but by mobilizing, putting their money where their mouths are, and finding ways to support the causes that they believe in. This is not intended to be a lecture; I'm more like you all. I'm still trying to figure out how to best use my time and resources. And with that, I better finish my Latin America reading before class.

E Favorite,

In answer to your question "Does that atheist you describe go to heaven, despite rejecting god?" I can only answer that I don't give much thought to afterlife questions because they don't seem very relevant. Jesus himself rarely referred to hell-- in fact, to my knowledge he only referred to it once: in a parable about a rich man not helping a poor man. I suppose that answer would get me labeled as a "tub of goo" by another poster on this thread, but I really see afterlife questions as dividing God's people rather than uniting them. I'd rather see everyone as on a faith journey whether they realize it or not, and God as calling all people and working in their hearts whether they choose to respond or not. My belief in God as a loving God would incline me to believe that s/he wouldn't condemn someone to eternal suffering simply on the basis of "wrong" manswers to metaphysical questions that none of us really understand anyway.

I think it is terribly presumptive of Christians to claim to know the "mind" of God--anytime I hear somebody make a remark about another person's afterlife destiny I assume they are either a little bit naive or that they have ulterior motives.

In answer to your question "what if that same atheist actively states rejection of any and all Gods - whether perceived by believers to be "real" or a "caricature?" Do you think God counts that atheist as doing His will?" I would add to my previous response these words of Chrsit: "By your fruits they will know you." Yes, God loves that atheist and has a relationship with that atheist whether the atheist realizes it or not, so it is certainly possible for the atheist to be doing God's will. Google "common grace" and "reformed" to learn more about this theological concept.

E Favorite,

In answer to your question "Does that atheist you describe go to heaven, despite rejecting god?" I can only answer that I don't give much thought to afterlife questions because they don't seem very relevant. Jesus himself rarely referred to hell-- in fact, to my knowledge he only referred to it once: in a parable about a rich man not helping a poor man. I suppose that answer would get me labeled as a "tub of goo" by another poster on this thread, but I really see afterlife questions as dividing God's people rather than uniting them. I'd rather see everyone as on a faith journey whether they realize it or not, and God as calling all people and working in their hearts whether they choose to respond or not. My belief in God as a loving God would incline me to believe that s/he wouldn't condemn someone to eternal suffering simply on the basis of "wrong" manswers to metaphysical questions that none of us really understand anyway.

I think it is terribly presumptive of Christians to claim to know the "mind" of God--anytime I hear somebody make a remark about another person's afterlife destiny I assume they are either a little bit naive or that they have ulterior motives.

In answer to your question "what if that same atheist actively states rejection of any and all Gods - whether perceived by believers to be "real" or a "caricature?" Do you think God counts that atheist as doing His will?" I would add to my previous response these words of Chrsit: "By your fruits they will know you." Yes, God loves that atheist and has a relationship with that atheist whether the atheist realizes it or not, so it is certainly possible for the atheist to be doing God's will. Google "common grace" and "reformed" to learn more about this theological concept.

It's news that American people age 16-29 are skeptical of Christianity? That they see it as "judgmental, hypocritical, old-fashioned and too political?" Good grief, this has been the case for just about forever. It's the nature of youth to question entrenched values and to see hypocrisy. Some of us even continue in this vein into adulthood. At 48, I am amazed every day at the stunning perversions of the teachings of Jesus that are perpetrated by the Christian Right. Heresies go unchallenged every day as moderate Christians have basically stopped talking publicly and do not refute the whackos. As Bill Moyers pointed out years ago, with the selection of George W. Bush in 2000 the lunatic fringe has become the face of Christianity in the US.

Amen!
Ms. Coulter's ideas of religious absolutism, intolerance and disdain for those whose opinions differ from hers is no different than those in radical Islam who want to see harm come to this country. While I agree that she gets too much coverage for her extreme comments, that too is what America is all about. Free speech. The more she spews venom, the more her cause is hurt in the end. The vast majority of Americans, regardless of their political or religous views are sane, tolerant moderates who do not stand for such hatred.

Amen!
Ms. Coulter's ideas of religious absolutism, intolerance and disdain for those whose opinions differ from hers is no different than those in radical Islam who want to see harm come to this country. While I agree that she gets too much coverage for her extreme comments, that too is what America is all about. Free speech. The more she spews venom, the more her cause is hurt in the end. The vast majority of Americans, regardless of their political or religous views are sane, tolerant moderates who do not stand for such hatred.

The only substantial difference between the idiocies that emanate from Ms. Coulter's mouth, and the idiocies that fly around much of the Evanglical Christian-o-sphere that I have seen, is the volume that her notoriety and her fascist-harpy shtick lend to them. I long ago lost count of the number of times I have heard Christians proclaiming that Jews were indeed not only "incomplete" but doomed to an eternity of misery, that homosexuals are at best deeply troubled and in need of a cure, that Ghandi shares the same suite in Hell as Hitler and half of the murderers and rapists that pollute the news. So yes, I pay no attention to Ann Coulter, for the same reasons that I pay no attention to the absurd claims of many others who assert religious notions with an air of truth...

The only substantial difference between the idiocies that emanate from Ms. Coulter's mouth, and the idiocies that fly around much of the Evanglical Christian-o-sphere that I have seen, is the volume that her nororiety and her fascist-harpy schtick lend to them. I long ago lost count of the number of times I have heard Christians proclaiming that Jews were indeed not only "incomplete" but doomed to an eternity of misery, that homosexuals are at best deeply troubled and in need of a cure, that Ghandi shares the same suite in Hell as Hitler and half of the murderers and rapists that pollute the news. So yes, I pay no attention to Ann Coulter, for the same reasons that I pay no attention to the absurd claims of many others who assert religious notions with an air of truth...

Yes, everyone knows that the phenomena of Christianist supremacy is a recent development of the late 20th century that can be attributed to a desire for political power in the American system.

(coughs, snorts)

Ahem. Well. The entire history of the Christianist movement - which began a couple centuries after Christ's time on earth - is one of oppression of weaker peoples and war-waging to convert the "unsaved."

Sorry, Mr. Livingston, but Christianism has been selling a bill of goods for going on 2,000 years. Many of the most destructive eras in human history can be attributed to the deep-seated evil within the various offshoots of the Christianist movement (Roman Empire, the Dark Ages, Spanish Inquisition, British occupation of India, French occupation of north Africa, Spanish "conversion" of Andean tribes, Anglo "conversion" of N. American tribes, Britain's Muslim Crusades, ad infinitum) - these events alone are responsible for the deaths of untold tens of millions of people, all so that they might be "saved" in the name of Jesus.

And Jesus would have wept to see the gross bastardization of his teachings.

I have never met a true Christian, and I certainly never expect to see one on the teevee. This commentary is simply another token in a long line of excuse-making by a church that has never been as compassionate as it claims, in an attempt to distract from the destruction it continues to wreak on the planet and its inhabitants.

"Look, over here, see we're really good people!"

Not so much. Until you have tampered down the murderers and zealots in your midst, your voice will carry no weight. Remove the stick from thine own eye, and all of that.

As the American military continues to be radicalized from within by the most violent, supremist elements of the Christianist church, I have decreasing faith in your ability to police your own.

And just as an aside - radical Islam is no picnic, but how many humans have been killed as a result of Muslim expansionism and exceptionalism? No contest, Christianists, the blood on your hands far exceeds the sum total of suffering caused by all the mullahs in Babylon.

My mistake from before - I was the 'Anonymous' from earlier this morning.

K - You said, "You happen to have been born in a time in history and a country that allows you to believe in the right God, while the remainder of humanity born in other times and in many other countries where they indocrinate their children with different god(s) are just screwed?"

I do not speak in terms of 'the right God' myself because it conveys just what you're concerned about; namely, that the whole experience of life becomes an in-group/out-group dynamic, Us vs. Them, zero sum game. I conceive of life - and God - differently, and though I claim a theistic faith and you don't, I don't see that as a sign that we need to be enemies. (I know you weren't saying that, by the way; I just add that point because I think fairly often people like framing the whole discussion of faith's role in the public marketplace in those stark, dualistic terms.)

To your main point in the paragraph that I copied and pasted, though - no, I don't think those people in other countries and cultures who have different experiences and different faiths (or no particular faith at all) are 'just screwed.' As I mentioned in my other post, what we all have in common is a conscience - or, if you have another term for that aspect within each of us that helps us to choose wisely. If we live for the good, then judgment shouldn't be a concern. I want to presume that those who speak of hellfire are doing so with the idea that they want to remind everyone that our choices have consequences, but unfortunately, that brimstone emphasis downplays the notion of a loving God. And I can't countenance any conversation about faith without that notion.

Thanks for the questions, K - it's always good food for thought, especially if we can talk to each other in a way that is positive.

Peace.

It's hard to ignore Ann Coulter because she's in my face all the time, calling me a traitor and inciting others to kill me.

She's your monster, Christianist apologists.

You get rid of her.

Yes, just ignore her, just like the majority of American Christians do, for whom she speaks.....

After the vast majority of mainstream Christians in this country sat idly by -- or worse -- for the past 25-30 years while their religions were hijacked by fanatics, we are now to believe that the media is to blame? Give me a break. You cheered them while they gained political power. You said nothing when they redefined Christianity as (false) "patriotism," greed, and bald selfishness. That is what young people have grown up on. They are reflecting back to you what you have portrayed oftentimes with great pride. You have gravely damaged the American fabric.

After the vast majority of mainstream Christians in this country sat idly by -- or worse -- for the past 25-30 years while their religions were hijacked by fanatics, we are now to believe that the media is to blame? Give me a break. You cheered them while they gained political power. You said nothing when they redefined Christianity as (false) "patriotism," greed, and bald selfishness. That is what young people have grown up on. They are reflecting back to you what you have portrayed oftentimes with great pride. You have gravely damaged the American fabric.

Amen.

Anonymous: this atheist doesn't reject "G"od, as you have correctly said, I reject gods, any of them, all of them. This doesn't mean I "believe" that they don't exist, I don't reach into my brain far enough to make the effort to actually positively believe that they don't exist.

Why you should think your God is any more or less likely than any of the other gods humanity has claimed to exist is a very curious thing to me.

All of them were wrong, and you're right? All of the humans before the bronze age jews wrote their "old testament" as we sort of know it ... all of them are in hell?

You happen to have been born in a time in history and a country that allows you to believe in the right God, while the remainder of humanity born in other times and in many other countries where they indocrinate their children with different god(s) are just screwed?

Can you see how silly this is?

And this experience of God you suggest, were something like that to happen to me I would have to wonder who slipped the LSD in my coffee before I would believe anything like some god was talking to me. Your willingness to grab on to the external god story as opposed to looking somewhere else for this emotional response ... it's just silly.

And finally when I think of this wonderous heaven I hear described by Christians, I am reminded of what Kind Arthur said in Monty Pythons and the Holy Grail: "On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place. "

Christians have no one to blame but themselves. They neglected to speak up while this particular group took over our national consciousness. They are just as guilty of silence as American Muslims after 9/11. It is not the media's fault...

I also question whether most Christian Americans are that loving and accepting. I remember an Episcopalian in the small Texas town I was living in telling me that she believed Bill and Hillary Clinton really did kill Vince Foster. I have witnessed a whole slew of uncomfortable "Christian" behavior since our current President's ascension.

I would like to say that I am not an atheist, just uncomfortable with "Christian" religions as practiced and preached these days.

Nice try, Michael.

I've been to church recently. There are definitely some nice people there, but there are an awful lot of Bush/Cheney bumper stickers, fish insignias, and abortion is murder signs. Christianity is just another wing of the Republican Party. Glad to see the youngsters catching on. Have you caught Steven Baldwins "muscular Christianity" act. The hero fo the stupid.

Good observation that is shared by many Christians. Rev. Livingston could have made a stronger case for his opinion if he had included some 60 million Catholic in this country who are puzzled by the far right and people such as Ann Coulter. The preachings of these people is not a message heard from the pulpits of Catholic churches or read in Catholic opinion publications.

Wow - I didn't expect my comments to lead this far, but it's good that people are thinking and talking.

As to whether an atheist - or anyone who doesn't fall into what some might consider a traditional denomination or faith - would make it into heaven, I have to reiterate one of my earlier points; namely, that God makes the final call. I say that not to be snarky, just to get back to basics and remind myself that I'm not a real arbiter in the whole process. (An aide and abetter to people living good and holy lives? I hope so.)

More specifically, each of us has to act according to our conscience; each of has to choose freely, and that includes choosing to believe in and follow God. This path cannot be one of compulsion. I think it is safe to say that all of us know someone - maybe several someones - who have not had an experience of God, and so the very notion of being a believer is not merely foreign to them, but beyond the pale.

For those of us who claim the name Christian, it's our task to witness to the love of God - and our experience of God - in such a way that people feel inspired to ask questions and want to know more. Jesus' words come to mind: "See how they love one another."

Another note about atheists - strictly speaking, they don't reject God, because they don't believe in God in the first place. They reject believing in God. Now I know I might sound like I'm splitting hairs, but I think it matters. Think about it this way: if you have had an experience of God - a conversion of some sort, let's say - then you have within you a powerful sense of how God can and will guide you to live out of love for Him and others. If you have not had that experience, well, you aren't explicitly rejecting God simply by saying that you don't think God exists. Rather, you are being honest to your own experience and acknowledging that based on your own subjective field of observations, you cannot claim a theistic belief.

Now let's all pray for each other - and witness to each other.

let me say this. i am not a christian and i am not a conservative. but the basic stance of the livingston piece is pitiful. "religious" people of this ilk are marked by mellow benevolent friendliness to all and by an almost complete inability to think. what does it mean to be a christian? well in the new testament and throughout the tradition, it means to accept jesus as the savior and as the only means to redemption. obviously this directly contradicts the doctrines of more or less all other religions. if a 'christian' sort of in a friendly way thinks that all these religions are true, this can only be in a complete transcendence of basic logic or in its rejection or simply in a kind of ignorance of the basic structures that make human thought, and the attempt to get at the truth, possible. it's exactly as though you both endorsed and opposed the iraq war simultaneously, both ways around with real enthusiasm, both ways around as organizing your political life. to say that you shouldn't listen to folks like these is redundant: once they're throwing out the extreme explicit contradictions, they have created a set of sentences which it is literally impossible to believe. they don't believe it. they can't expect you to believe it. coulter simply has the guts actually to be a christian, to declare frankly that she meets the absolutely minimal conditions to be a believer; the folks that wrote that livingston believes everything, hence nothing at all. obviously, things like consistency or commitment make you a raving reactionary who ought to be suppressed. on the other hand, being a raving reactionary is a lot better than to be a tub of goo incapable of rudimentary ratiocination.

A quote from Eric Hoffer's The True Believer is instructive here: "The opposite of the religious fanatic is not the fanatical atheist but the gentle cynic who cares not whether there is a god or not. "

You can deny Ann Coulter and Dobson et al are representative of your "real" religion, just as the muslims can deny the extremists represent theirs ... but this isn't really the battle you are losing with the youth.

It's not the reason I never bought your stories, no, there is a much larger reason.

You Christians aren't losing the youth because they think you're all Ann Coulters, you're losing the youth because they think you are silly.

Yep, Jesus died for the sins of bush (though bush's sins are likely not fully covered).

Jesus also died for the sins of all the racist, bigoted, bush supporting, republican, "good christian" southern and mid western, red-state, red necks,

AND little annie coulter (who really can't be blamed; she's just another run-of-the-mill, white-trash hick - just like cheney).

2nd try.

Yep, Jesus died for the sins of bush (though bush's sins are likely not fully covered).

Jesus also died for the sins of all the racist, bigoted, bush supporting, republican, "good christian" southern and mid western, red-state, red necks,

AND little annie coulter (who really can't be blamed; she's just another run-of-the-mill, white-trash hick - just like cheney).

You know, I have a somewhat stock answer for attractive, ultra-conservative talking-head fundamentalists-who-wouldn't-know-a-scriptual-fundamental-if-it-fell-from-the-sky Republicans who consistently stir the neo-con-fascist pot with their venom and bile - and I would be honored to take this opportunity to address Ann Coulter as an Episcopalian-Jew Democrat -
"Get naked or I'll punch you in the mouth!"
Sweet Jesus... Amen.

i agree with mr. livingston's assessment of ms. coulter, that what she promotes is sick and twisted and has little or nothing to do with what jesus christ taught. but, he misses a greater and to me, a more sinister point. although what coulter, hagee, dodson et al spout doesn't comport with what mr. livingston believes, it is the face of fundamentalist, right wing political christianity. one hagee or robertson church probably has more fannies (and more voters) in it than a thousand of the "main line" congregations who agree with livingston. like it or not, the falwells and the hagees have a more legitimate claim to be the main line of american religious belief today. what we are seeing is gresham's law as it applies to religion: the bad has driven out the good. those who hold that christianity is the doctrine of the mild, the merciful and the caring are the fringe of modern religious thought.

i agree with mr. livingston's assessment of ms. coulter, that what she promotes is sick and twisted and has little or nothing to do with what jesus christ taught. but, he misses a greater and to me, a more sinister point. although what coulter, hagee, dodson et al spout doesn't comport with what mr. livingston believes, it is the face of fundamentalist, right wing political christianity. one hagee or robertson church probably has more fannies (and more voters) in it than a thousand of the "main line" congregations who agree with livingston. like it or not, the falwells and the hagees have a more legitimate claim to be the main line of american religious belief today. what we are seeing is gresham's law as it applies to religion: the bad has driven out the good. those who hold that christianity is the doctrine of the mild, the merciful and the caring are the fringe of modern religious thought.

while we're on the subject of Coulter's crowd, I just heard Dr. Laura comment on the wonderful people of San Diego at the evacuation stadium and how they are doing a marvelous job of helping each other without waiting for the government and feeling all warm and fuzzy about how their neighbors are stepping up to the plate. Then she contrasted that with the crowd at the Superdome in New Orleans who couldn't think of anything better to do than loot, complain about the lack of help and blame Bush. Even Bush is saying there's no comparison, but unless Dr. Laura is suggesting that hot humid weather explains the different responses, she has just made the worst kind of bigoted racist remark.

When you cited the fact that OVER HALF of the members of the National Council of Churches USA do not ordain women, you lost my sympathetic ear. Frankly, I am insulted that you have chosen that statistic to present the organization you lead in a positive light, especially when you are trying to convince us that the majority of American Christians are far more tolerant and inclusive than the media-darlings of the Christian Right.

When you cited the fact that OVER HALF of the members of the National Council of Churches USA do not ordain women, you lost my sympathetic ear. Frankly, I am insulted that you have chosen that statistic to present the organization you lead in a positive light, especially when you are trying to convince us that the majority of American Christians are far more tolerant and inclusive than the media-darlings of the Christian Right.

When you cited the fact that OVER HALF of the members of the National Council of Churches USA do not ordain women, you lost my sympathetic ear. Frankly, I am insulted that you have chosen that statistic to present the organization you lead in a positive light, especially when you are trying to convince us that the majority of American Christians are far more tolerant and inclusive than the media-darlings of the Christian Right.

When you cited the fact that OVER HALF of the members of the National Council of Churches USA do not ordain women, you lost my sympathetic ear. Frankly, I am insulted that you have chosen that statistic to present the organization you lead in a positive light, especially when you are trying to convince us that the majority of American Christians are far more tolerant and inclusive than the media-darlings of the Christian Right.

When you cited the fact that OVER HALF of the members of the National Council of Churches USA do not ordain women, you lost my sympathetic ear. Frankly, I am insulted that you have chosen that statistic to present the organization you lead in a positive light, especially when you are trying to convince us that the majority of American Christians are far more tolerant and inclusive than the media-darlings of the Christian Right.

When you cited the fact that OVER HALF of the members of the National Council of Churches USA do not ordain women, you lost my sympathetic ear. Frankly, I am insulted that you have chosen that statistic to present the organization you lead in a positive light, especially when you are trying to convince us that the majority of American Christians are far more tolerant and inclusive than the media-darlings of the Christian Right.

When you cited the fact that OVER HALF of the members of the National Council of Churches USA do not ordain women, you lost my sympathetic ear. Frankly, I am insulted that you have chosen that statistic to present the organization you lead in a positive light, especially when you are trying to convince us that the majority of American Christians are far more tolerant and inclusive than the media-darlings of the Christian Right.

BONNIE JACKSON wrote: I've often felt that the religion (Christianity) that I grew up with has been hijacked in the last 15 years by some of the most mean-spirited people.

I agreed. See my comments below. Not only was religion hijacked, so was the GOP.

K wrote: As long as any of you are saying "this is a christian country", found by christians and for christians, you're going to get resistance from large numbers of people - not just the atheists.

Agreed. That is probably THE BIG LIE of evangelical fundies, used to justify their efforts to insert their version of doctrine into public law via the Alliance Defense Fund (ADF). The ADF was set up by what I call the American Taliban (AT) of Dobson, Robertson, Falwell, Haggard, et al.

IMO, Coulter is a total whack job, saying outrageous things purposefully in order to get airtime, ratings, and of course, money. She should be ignored totally.

As for what happened to the GOP and religion in America, my opinion is: the same thing has happened to them both, the same thing that happened to Iran, to Afghanistan, to the Weimar Republic. They were hijacked by radical fanatics who want everyone's blood on their sword as they seek to purify their nation of some perceived stain or sin. And yes, they are very mean spirited people, to be avoided like the plague. They are zealots, the stuff that bring catastrophe and debacle, like Nazi Germany, like Islamic fundies. The USA's own evangelical fundies out on the far right are foaming at the mouth. If haters like Robertson and Falwell could have their way, America would burn gays alive at the stake, like the old Puritans did to witches in Salem, MA. Falwell is gone now, I hope the others of that ilk follow soon enough. They are a pox on us all.

"Nothing raises money more than hate..." Ron Kaufman, GOP Fundraiser

Dear Reverend,

I found your article most interesting and more importantly, very uniting. As a practicing Jew I yearn for anything that will unite us as Americans rather than divide us as religious ideologues.

If only we could promote that better in the media.

Thank you very much.

Henry Weiner

We are supposed to have freedom of religion AND freedom from religion. When government and religion get too cozy with each other, as they currently are now, you ultimately weaken both.

Peter - thanks for your response.

Does that atheist you describe go to heaven, despite rejecting god?

Also, what if that same atheist actively states rejection of any and all Gods - whether perceived by believers to be "real" or a "caricature?" Do you think God counts that atheist as doing His will?

Tom D -- I'd like to hear your response too, to the original question

E. Favorite,

You asked "what happens after death to an atheist who clearly and emphatically says "No" to God but is a good, compassionate, generous, tolerant, law abiding member of society?"

My answer is based on the Reformed doctrine of common grace: an atheist who from the heart is a good, compassionate, generous, tolerant, law-abiding individual is not "clearly and emphatically saying no" to the real God, but just to the caricature of "God" that he/she assumes, based on experience or what others have told him/her about God. The real God has been working through that atheist to be good, compassionate, generous, tolerant, etc. If an atheist is doing these things from the heart, that atheist is doing the will of God. God loves that atheist and is drawing that atheist towards Godself, even if the atheist does not intellectually "believe in" God.

Bless your heart, friend, for asking the tough questions.

The future of the Christian Right

I see another religious abuse scandal coming- it isn't sexual, but its activity parallels in harmfulness

It was difficult enough when the Catholic sexual abuse scandal came out. People who were supposed to be the most trusted took sexual advantage of children. To made matters worse parishioners knowingly covered it up.

The consequences of the sexual abuse were severe. First there was the initial suffering the children endured. Then there was the economic hardship imposed on the Church. Finally there was the suffering the children and others endured after the initial abuse. Many were shunned for speaking out. Others turned to drinking, drugs, sexual promiscuity, and even suicide.

In the Catholic Church, Protecting God's Children, a program to educate about the signs of abuse was made a requirement for anyone working around children. The program was designed to help educate about sexual abuse and what signs to look for in the victim and the abuser. That should have been the end of things, but another form of abuse and cover up actively crept into Christianity. It was psychological abuse.

Psychological abuse might sound vague at first, but when one begins to look at psychological abuse on the level of what blacks endured during slavery or Jews endured during Hitler's reign, it is a little easier to comprehend. These incidents were a type of psychological abuse done on a coordinated group level to cleanse society and keep people in their place. Today instead of blacks and Jews it is homosexuals, abortionists, and others that need to be cleansed and Muslims and others who need to be kept in their place.

As a result of these viewpoints, two very, very different psychological abuse patterns have escalated in society.

First, instead of looking at the behavior and actions of homosexuals and abortionists as a manifestation of a past abuse, similar to the actions of those abused by Catholics who were mentioned earlier, many are unable to look beyond the signs of abuse – of drinking, drugs, sexual promiscuity, suicide, homosexuality, and abortions to face the initial psychological abuse as the cause. Then when the abused victims act out their suffering they get abused a second time, this time by people trying to cleanse society.

The second is an entirely different perspective. Rather than looking at homosexuality and people of the Muslim faith as a difference to be accepted such as people of the Jewish faith or people with black skin color, the natural difference whether it is skin color or sexual orientation or the freedom to hold a different religious belief, the difference is seen as the problem. Then when these new differences became a strong focus a segregated society and all the problems that go with it began to be created in America. And if homosexuality is a genetic condition, we need to remind ourselves that we don’t allow individuals born with a cleft lip, mongolodism, dyslexia, or diabetes to be treated this harshly.

A new path needs to be taken because these two patterns only foster additional turmoil. An inspiring model is the way the Catholic Church successfully faced their issue and brought about a healthy openness and awareness of sexual abuse and prevention through the Protecting God's Children program. Christianity as a whole needs to adopt a similar method to bring about a healthy openness and awareness of psychological abuse, its consequences, and its prevention. In 2008, I hope we can elect someone to do this.

I think it is very clear that many of her opinions do not accurately represent the views of Christians, Republicans, or even a substantial amount of the Christian right. As a strong believer of the value of free speech and open debate in a society, I would not call for her comments to be quieted, even if I find many of them tremendously divisive and unnecessarily hurtful for the national debate. Nonetheless, it is bewildering to me that she is so frequently presented as a qualified pundit on the media, in particular conservative channels like Fox news. It there was a true interest in the media for a more constructive and elevated debate on important issues, or at the very least a desire to better represent Conservative views, then please give her less air time. This is both the fault of Liberal media that sometimes amuses itself with the barbarities that Mrs. Coulter often says, and Conservative media that may enjoy having someone express views they are not allowed to. In any case, and whatever the reasons, she does not need, nor deserve the amount of airtime she is receiving.

Tom D: "hell is a choice, not a place, and the choice is a clear and defiant 'No' to God and all that is good"

So, in your opinion, and/or the opinion of your church, what happens after death to an atheist who clearly and emphatically says "No" to God but is a good, compassionate, generous, tolerant (assuming that's a good thing), law abiding member of society?

Blaming the media for the image of Christians "as judgmental, hypocritical, old-fashioned and too political" is the easy way out. A true Christian would be proactive in taking back Christianity from it hijackers like Dobson, Robertson, Craig, Haggard, Vitter et. el. like a true Christian would stand up against a prolonged and immoral war.

Mainstream Christians are just too watered down to really make any impact on important world issues like the war and global warming. Their extremist fringe is very good at using Rovian tactics to get things done. Maybe Jesus needs Rove on his side.
Karl, please repent and leave the dark side.

Wan't Ann Coulter just telling the truth without cutting it with political correctness. While Christians may "respect" other religions and as their sacred texts, they're sure that heaven will only welcome those that accept Jesus Christ. It's a bit hypocritical to have respect for someone's religion in one breath, and in the next suggest that God will not welcome them unless they convert, or was it perfect, their beliefs.

"Anyone claiming to be religious who denies the validity of other world religions is displaying their ignorance and prejudice. In our personal lives, each of us needs to befriend those who have become the victims of hatred from those with misdirected anger."

I beg to differ. Ann Coulter's anti-American and Nazi perspective was shaped by her upbringing as a virulent, authentic Roman Catholic of the organization identified by America's Founder, Thomas Jefferson, as "the real Anti-Christ." Americans bearing witness to the treason, chaos, perversion, assassination, false war, unconstitutional money and political corruption visited upon Our Nation by Rome's Fifth Column are more than justified to share Mr. Jefferson's Whig values recognizing that Rome's pedophile priesthood is, institutionally, not a valid path to the G-d of Creation - denotation of religion.

While in the not-so-distant past Rome's agents killed Meriwether Lewis and Abraham Lincoln, their success then failed to quench their thirst for blood and Our Republic, and they are now promoting illegal immigration, NAFTA, and much more atrociously, have committed 9/11 through their multi-generational alliance with the Rockefeller-front Bush Crime Family, to secure Roman Catholic BIG OIL under the regime of the Vatican-banker Rockefellers and Council on Foreign Relations.

Ann Coulter is "Moll" for the Fifth Column of Rome which financed the rise of Nazism, and murdered King and Kennedy. They've done 9/11 to send us to die for Saudi "princes," heroin and oil.

Death for Treason. G-d is not mocked.

May America be Blessed, once more, True Americans pray.

This is my only time of responding to Michael Livingstone's position of reinterating the major Christian perspective of honoring all persons irrespective of orientation. Anyone claiming to be religious who denies the validity of other world religions is displaying their ignorance and prejudice. In our personal lives, each of us needs to befriend those who have become the victims of hatred from those with misdirected anger.

Tom D:

I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure your Apostles Creed says that Catholics must believe in the resurrection of the physical body and it's reunion to the soul on the day of final judgement. While I suppose it's possible that hell might be empty it seems like it will still definitely be a 'place', just as heaven will be a 'place'. You have to have a place to put physical bodies.

Ms. Coulter is representative of those who use religion to justify their prejudices against anyone different from them - whether that difference be that of religion, gender, race, class, sexual orientation or whatever else makes each of us uniquely made in God's image. I find it incredible & very dangerous that anyone who calls themselves a Christian forgets that Jesus was a Jew whose closest companions were men who he obviously loved. Most conservative Christians would deny the possibility that Jesus' affection for the men around him might reflect an homosexual orientation. Michael Livingston's voice is countering that misplaced hatred of those
who might differ from us for a variety of good reasons.

I'm struck by the amount of condemnatory language included in some of the posts. That's sad, and does little (it seems to me) to advance the conversation about the role that faith plays in the public marketplace.

I myself am Catholic and figured I'd throw in my two cents. First of all, Gary, I was intrigued and inspired by your words of wisdom; your congregation is blessed to have you as pastor. As to the question of who goes to heaven and who goes to hell, a few things seem pretty incontrovertible to me:

1) God makes the final call on heaven;

2) hell is a choice, not a place, and the choice is a clear and defiant 'No' to God and all that is good;

3) nowhere in scripture can one find anything binding people to believe that certain people - or any people - are in fact in hell.

To paraphrase the Jesuit priest and paleontologist Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, Christians must believe that hell exists because they must believe that they have the free will to choose God (or, not choose God). However, hell's existence does not require Christians to believe that anyone is in hell.

Peace to all.

I'm struck by the amount of condemnatory language included in some of the posts. That's sad, and does little (it seems to me) to advance the conversation about the role that faith plays in the public marketplace.

I myself am Catholic and figured I'd throw in my two cents. First of all, Gary, I was intrigued and inspired by your words of wisdom; your congregation is blessed to have you as pastor. As to the question of who goes to heaven and who goes to hell, a few things seem pretty incontrovertible to me:

1) God makes the final call on heaven;

2) hell is a choice, not a place, and the choice is a clear and defiant 'No' to God and all that is good;

3) nowhere in scripture can one find anything binding people to believe that certain people - or any people - are in fact in hell.

To paraphrase the Jesuit priest and paleontologist Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, Christians must believe that hell exists because they must believe that they have the free will to choose God (or, not choose God). However, hell's existence does not require Christians to believe that anyone is in hell.

Peace to all.

I'm struck by the amount of condemnatory language included in some of the posts. That's sad, and does little (it seems to me) to advance the conversation about the role that faith plays in the public marketplace.

I myself am Catholic and figured I'd throw in my two cents. First of all, Gary, I was intrigued and inspired by your words of wisdom; your congregation is blessed to have you as pastor. As to the question of who goes to heaven and who goes to hell, a few things seem pretty incontrovertible to me:

1) God makes the final call on heaven;

2) hell is a choice, not a place, and the choice is a clear and defiant 'No' to God and all that is good;

3) nowhere in scripture can one find anything binding people to believe that certain people - or any people - are in fact in hell.

To paraphrase the Jesuit priest and paleontologist Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, Christians must believe that hell exists because they must believe that they have the free will to choose God (or, not choose God). However, hell's existence does not require Christians to believe that anyone is in hell.

Peace to all.

Scooter – hold it! Did man choose the path? An all-knowing, all-loving God put two innocent, ignorant people in the Garden of Eden, told them to avoid the fruit of one tree and when they disobeyed, he marked all his people for all time with original sin which would condemn them to a burning hell for eternity, unless they believed in his son, whom he sent to earth 1,000’s of years later in the form of a small-town carpenter. This son, according to an edict from his loving father, the creator of the universe, could only save humanity by suffering and dying for us, all of which God helpfully arranged. And you say man chose the path?

In terms of your missionary work, while I’m enjoying our conversation, I’m hardly conversion bait. I’m long gone and not coming back -- unless perhaps you’ve got a new denomination that drops the supernatural, drops eating flesh and drinking blood, even symbolically, and includes all the great old music, with all the “God’s and Jesus’” removed.

Why Blame media for focusing on Coulter, et al?

The media only plays what sells. If Coulter sells, more than so called moderate christian views and beliefs. Since Coulter's belief system sells is because so many christians empathize and believe likewise.

If there wasn't a market, it wouldn't sell. The fact that I hate McDonalds food does not change the fact that many more people in this country consider it fine dining.

The majority of self proclaimed christians believe just as Ann Coulter does. Sick, but true.

Unless Christians can somehow get around the words of Jesus when he says, "Amen, amen I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of the water and Spirit", then the only way to separate yourselves from people such as Ann Coulter is to join a non-Christian religion, or abandon religion altogether.

Thank you for your wonderful piece, reminding us of true Christian values--concern for our fellow citizens, quiet faith, humility. This last trait has completely disappeared from view in these days of loud, angry, chest-thumping religious domination that is indeed wildly aided and abetted by the media. Whenever the Republicans and their evangelical mouthpieces have the nerve to talk about values, think of these who represent them: Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, and Ann Coulter. Not the best human beings among us. And certainly not representatives of any heart-felt true Christianity.

Ted.
I go one further than Ann Coulter.
I think America would be a better place if
there were no white folk.Just imagine if we could send them all back to Europe where they came from.
How beautiful it would be.That would include Coulter,of course.Pat Robertson,the Bushies.
And they could take that white god with them too.

Nek, I think you're right. Popular ideas of sin, salvation, heaven, godhood are upside down. If we use our common sense and reread the old "sacred" texts with new scholarship and new eyes, we'll discover it doesn't say what we thought it said. And when we realized what it *really* says, the world will start to change for the better. That's my hope, anyway.

The default position on the god question has to be that there is no god.
Surely it is that simple and that straightforward.
Some say there is a god,I say where?
It would seem that god is either a metaphor,a hypothesis,a pipe dream,or a delusion.
There is not a scrap of evidence to suggest that any god ever existed,anywhere anytime,outside of our imaginations;while at the same we know there's no limit to what our imaginations conjure up for us all the time.(Apollo,Zeus,Thor,Krishna,Amun,Balder,Wotan Isis,etc,ad infinitum).

The obvious conclusion is that the current god too is made up,like all the others. As Voltaire famously said,"If there were no god,the people would have to invent one".
Actually,we've invented hundreds of them.it's what we do.
The people need a god,so they invent one; always have and always will. The cosmos and existence are great puzzles which we may never solve.In lieu of a solution,we pretend there's a Bigdaddy in the sky who made everything,and who loves us and will assure us that we will never die. A comforting,but infantile fairy story,which is believed by only the fearful,the desperate,and the deluded.
And it certainly helps to be indoctrinated when you are a little child;when there's no option but to believe whatever the grownups tell you;especially when it's reinforced by the people in your community. Whether true or not you will grow up believe it is true.

smarty posted:
"One other thing, the people who compare Coulter, Falwell and Robertson and their words as a sort of American counterpart to Muslim fanatiscm/Taliban, which planned a murderous attack and has no problem killing innocent people- Shame on you and stop drinking the koolaid!!!!"

Indeed, there is no comparison. I don't think OBL ever suggested dropping a nuclear weapon on his own people, as Pat Robertson once did.

'"In interviews with the author of a book critical of the United States Department of State, Robertson made suggestions that the explosion of a nuclear weapon at State Department Headquarters would be good for the country, and repeated those comments on the air. "What we need is for somebody to place a small nuke at Foggy Bottom," Robertson said during his television program, referring to the location of the State Department headquarters.'

I'm not a blogger, and now I know why. People like Reza have me scratching my head. Let me besuccinct: Reza - live your life your own way, let me live mine my way. I could care less what you do or what or believe in, and I hope you would feel the same. Oh, but that's the catch. You can't help but insert your religious view of the world onto others. Foam at the mouth all you want, you only reinforce my point.

If you were in a restaurant and overhead someone ordering their dinner, and if by chance you didn't care for what they were ordering, you would lean over and tell them how wrong they are to eat that. Then you would insisit they eat only what you approve. Why would you do that? Why? Why? Why? And then you would spin it and say that person is trying to impose their choice of food on you and call it Christian bashing.

3. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking flying fictional thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

Not to mention Joseph Smith

Centurion58,

You might want to peruse the information and books listed at http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html .

A brief synopsis:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT. http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton in his book, Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of his life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists)via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.

3. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking flying fictional thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

It strikes me as odd: Scooter's hell may be full of good people while heaven may be enhabited by those who destroyed the earth.

Could it be we need a new definition of sin? Or perhaps our idea of heaven and hell is upside down.

"I don't believe the media is the culprit. For so many years, "Christians" have allowed themselves to be represented by the Pat Robertsons, Jerry Falwells and James Dobsons of the world. Ann Coulter is but an extension of their views." - Ken Pekie

I agree, Ken. The Muslims say that they embrace a peaceful religion, but the deafening silence from the Muslim community in the face of terrorism puts the lie to that statement.

In the same way, there should have been demonstrations in the streets when Robertson and Falwell blamed America for the 9/11 attack, saying that god had rolled back his protection because we weren't superstitious enough. As the Christian Taliban does its work undermining American liberties, the silence from the majority of Christian churches is damning.

amen

Excellent. Keep it coming, Ann. Nothing drives people away from religion quite like your delusional, hate-filled ranting.

If only there were more like Dobson and Robertson and Roberts and Perkins and Coulter and Colson and . . . my fingers are tiring.

Religion is all bunk and the kids are seeing right through it. Happy days.

No gods - no masters.

E fav. thanks for the post. i think I should get out there as a missionary. would be hard to pull up and bring an entire fam to some part of the world. so I'm doing some small things around here. like talk to you. perhaps that's just making me feel better and not doing much else.

I get the impression that seperation from God is actually MORE painful than human death (temporary, not eternal). But yes. Good point. Why did Jesus not have to die forever? Great question. I'll have to think on that one. The part about eternal death in the end for those who never heard the message does stink. Seems unfair. But what is fair anyway. God didn't cause the seperation from man. Man choose this path. The ramifications of that decision are on Adam's shoulders. He knew that. God did forgive him, but the consequences were still real and had to occur. I get the impression that we're on a big stage for all to see (heavenly hosts - whoever they are). God could have wiped Sin away by killing Lucifer right away. But that would have only proved Lucifer's point and sowed the seeds of doubt among all of God's creations. God had to let these terrible events occur so all would know the results of sin. For all time. Becuase later down the road (think big) we will still have the opportunity to sin (seperate ourselves from God), but we will (or should) choose not to beacuse we will know without a doubt what the consequence of that action would be (that was one long runon sentence - don't let my grade school teacher read this). So a few billion people die as a result (awful yes - terrible yes - worse than loosing all of God's creations to sin for all time? No). God would love to have us all make it home, but this can most likely not happen. It will be very sad, for all time.

peace and blessings (stole that from a guy that flipped hamburgers at a lunch spot - he'd say - shout - that to everyone and they all loved it)

Scooter, thanks for getting back to me. You didn’t really answer my question – if you think God has given Christians a responsibility to spread the word, why don’t you become a missionary?

Also, you say, “He simply taught his message and then died for our sins (pretty big accomplishment I’d say).”

I don’t think so. First of all, he was only dead three days and now he’s living forever in heaven. Not a bad deal. Also, these sins of ours that he supposedly died for were given to us at birth without us having any say in the matter/ The sins were compliments of Jesus’ father, God, for the sin our supposed original ancestors committed when they ate a forbidden apple. And even though Jesus died for our sins, we still supposedly go to hell if we never heard of him (because not enough Christians got around to tell us), or if hearing this story, we decide it sounds implausible and decide not to believe it. I never gave all of this much thought until a couple of years ago, but when I did, it sounded completely implausible, so I stopped believing. Not before doing a lot of research though, and finding out these stories are myths with no evidence to indicate that they are factual.

Campbellite – nice piece on the gospels

i dont expect anything more than this from the washington post. this guy sounds like one of your reporters. i bet he loves america, israel, george bush with the same passion he loves gene robinson;s lifestyle, osama bin laden's frustration and columbias right to invite ahmadinajab.

Good post, Buncinka:

In my small fundamentalist town, of which I spoke, the newspaper removed Molly Ivens (and Oliphant) because readers found her offensive and now we get to read Cal Thomas regularly. We need to all 'BANG THE POTS for Molly'.

What about Ms Coulter’s appearance, behavior, or personality screams Christian ideals? A nearly fifty year old bachelorette/ party girl with the wardrobe and personality of a dominatrix, she essentially personifies the lifestyle she claims to oppose. “Windbag” by her own self description, she proudly admits to sinking into a funk anytime her writings fail to inspire public criticism (i.e. attention). This is a person seeking attention and nothing more. Why even mention her in a discussion about Christian leadership? Anyone with a brain can see that she barely qualifies as a Christian much less as a leader within the community. Her previous profession as a lawyer hardly makes her an authority on religious scriptures or doctrines of any kind nor does her lifestyle indicate that she takes them seriously if she has in fact ever read them. The same can be said for many of the “Christian Right’s” leading voices including- Dr. Laura Schleisinger, Mr. Limbaugh, etc. These people are political commentators first (not even very good ones at that) and Christians second if at all. If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck it’s a duck. They get so much air time for the same reasons that circuses and professional wrestling matches tend to draw larger audiences than a lively public hearing on re-zoning proposals. Pure entertainment value. While there is now, just as there always has been, internal struggle among Christian factions (this tends to happen with just about any large group of people by the way) and public opinion of the Christian community continues to evolve, anyone who can’t separate the antics of Ms. Coulter and her ilk from the actual debate really isn’t smart enough to participate.

All of you people on here complaining about your inclusive religion being hijacked by the Robertsons, Falwells, and Dobsons of the world need to re-examine Christianity and what Christ really taught. Yes, Christ taught us to love one another as ourselves. He also taught that He did not abolish the law but fulfills it and the Bible also is quite clear that not all will be saved. Paul also wrote about wishing his own people, the Jews, would come to know Christ! What Coulter said is quite Biblical for anyone. When the lost truly come to Christ, the new has come, the old is gone and we are perfected in Him. She wasn't saying that we are perfect in all we do, but that the Father sees us as perfect through the redeeming blood of Christ. The only way to heaven is by faith in Christ, not works. And unfortunately, not everyone will go. Read the entire New Testament people, not just the cut and paste versions that ignore the warnings against sin and its consequences. Christ Jesus is not some cream puff, wishy washy God who allows anyone into heaven no matter what...many will suffer in the lake of fire if they do not know Him. Sorry if you don't like that, but thats quite clearly in the Bible, no ifs ands or butts about it.

to Bucinka:

good post. any suggestions for a solution? I'm all ears.

s

Livingston writes:

"Assuming the impressions of these young respondents are shaped by the media they would only know about the extreme ultra-conservative brand of Christianity. Most Christians in the U.S. are not that. Most Christians believe in an AUTHENTIC, inclusive and welcoming gospel in the thousands of communities where they worship."

You assume incorrectly.

Here's where the good Rev misses the point.

Young people realize that there's nothing "authentic" about the fairy-tales that make up his gospels. They realize that these stories and the personages that populate them are not factual but the imaginations (and all too often, the racist rages) of Bronze-aged imbeciles. They consider religious messages as a whole. No cherry-picking the "nice" parts while conveniently ignoring the "bad" parts for them.

Young people are not abandoning faith due to the lunatic fringe represented by Ann Coulter and the suicide bombers. No, they are abandoning it because the see it for what it is and what it always has been, ie: a pile of BS cooked up to sustain its own power structures and to enslave the minds of people. BS is BS, be it moderate or extreme.

As far as "American values being Xian values" - young people scoff at this lie as well. I'm around elementary to high school kids all the time, and they are pretty well versed in the world (one can thank the internet for that). They are aware of history, and they know what constitutes a "real Xian," be it an Ann Coulter or a Tomás de Torquemada. They realize that "moderate" religion is a religion that has been moderated by SECULAR ideals, not by any core message of the religion itself.

Young people are moving PAST religion. I see a tolerance of diversity in young people that would have been unimaginable when I was growing up. I see real acceptance and UNDERSTANDING of diversity, and - more importantly - an understanding that is incompatible with the boogeymen of religious dogma.

For today's youth, truth lies beyond the sorry shackles of religion. I say, more power to them!

Folks, I just want to remind you all that, in 1980, the GOP was badly fractionated, groping for a leader. There were seven men seeking the presidential nomination against Jimmy Carter. (Remember Lamar Alexander and his plaid shirt?) And the eventual nominee invited Jerry Falwell, Cal Thomas and the Moral Majority right into the GOP, whereupon they grew like a cancer, proceeding to impose litmus tests on candidates (abortion was the big issue of the time) and generally dictate most planks in the platform of a party Barry Goldwater shuddered to recognize. Those people are responsible for the blurring of the line between church and state, the growth of the vast right-wing conspiracy Hillary rants about (and if there's any doubt about its existence, just look at all the names you folks have posted on this board--Gary Bauer, Ralph Reed, James Dobson, and on and on, they're all part of it), and the single biggest cause of the biggest cultural divide in this country I've ever seen in my life. If any of you are the least bit puzzled about why uniting church and state in a theocracy would be a bad thing, I suggest you get out your copy of "The Handmaid's Tale" by Margaret Atwood (NOT the movie, the book) and re-read it. And if you've never read it, read it. Over and over if necessary.

Who invited the Moral Majority into the GOP? Why, Ronald Reagan, of course. This is his legacy. The chickens are now coming home to roost.

For Rev. Livingston's eyes only,

You noted: "The research done by George Barna and released in September shows the younger generation, ages 16-29, views Christianity as judgmental, hypocritical, old-fashioned and too political."

The reason for this is that are youth are more educated about the flaws in the foundations of Christianity and for that matter the flaws in all religions. See the following synopsis of said flaws:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT. http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to the mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton's book, Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of his life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists)via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

3. Mohammed, an illiterate, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic train bombers in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases and the Filipino koranics.

And who funds these acts of terror? The Shiite terror theocracy of Islamic Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

4. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking flying fictional thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site)- "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’".

The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."

"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life.

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations/embellishments and myths surrounding the founders of said rules of life.

This article is a breath of air in an increasingly constricted airway. Mr. Livingston makes an accurate point about the mainstream media's proclivity to highlight extremist viewpoints but did not excoriate them enough in terms of how the quest for "sales through sensationalism" has skewed the national debate as well as the national image.

Celebration of diversity? We can agree that this arguably is an American value, but history shows us that we have been anything but, right from the beginning, in practice. Slavery, voting rights for the landed gentry only, religious bias and burning of accused witches, ethnic bias and race wars both above and below the radar, inluding extermination of Native Americans. And this is quite aside from the violent political manipulation, suffering and death we have supported or caused in other nations in the past 100 years.

We are not stupid, nor are we blind. Young people today especially need actions to match the wordplay they hear. The media of today is not just news organizations. It is as much a forum for news as it has become a place to engage in narcissim and BS at length, particularly so online. Witness online video uploads of banal and mindless content and hundreds of forums and blogs where disorganized, stream of consciousness (and often pointlessly vulgar) expression is the order of the day. This must change if we are to recover, or build anew, a national compass of caring and well being, not to mention setting an example in the western world. Otherwise, the rest of the world will be correct in continuing to condemn our apparently insular American attitudes and lack of engagement, regardless of the quality of life that presently exists in many of our communities.

Hi NEK

You know your post would have seemed nuts to me had I not visited a baptist church in the deep south recently. I was very troubled. They had american flags flying all over the place. Big screen tvs with Bush, burning twin towers, american troops (in combat no less), etc. all being displayed over and over again DURING THE SERVICE. The entire thing reaked of a political rally. I wanted to grab my kids and get the heck out of there. My folks are members so I tried to balance their feelings with my disdain for what I observed. Anyway. I think there are places who really are preaching politics under the guise of christianity. And it's bad. No if ands or butts about it.

scooter

Rick, thank you for your kind words. I'm happy to support my beliefs.

Your question is loaded in several ways.

First of all, I question the assertion that the goal of Christianity is eternity in Heaven.

Jesus' teachings about the Kingdom of Heaven need to be understood in the lighth of first century Jewish politics. I think his words would be akin to us talking about a Community of Believers, or a Family of God, or even a Regime of Peace. He wasn't talking about the sweet by and by, what happens after you're dead. He was talking about turning the tables on the (then) current political system, where the high and mighty who drained the country of its wealth to support lavish lifestyles and bribe Roman officials. He consistently told stories and parables of systems being turned upside down: shepherds leaving large flocks to search for one lost lamb. Blessed are the poor in spirit. He also tells what The Kingdom of God would look like: like a woman putting a little yeast into a bread, and the yeast works its way into the whole loaf and makes it rise. When Jesus is angry and condemning, it's the rich and powerful he's mad at, not the poor and weak and sinful. He dines with prostitues and tax collectors, he heals lepers, he chooses day laborers as his students and closest friends. Jesus ask us to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick. His concern is people and our relationships to each other. He was crucified to stop a rising political movement; blasphemy was thrown in to sweeten the pot.

Now, the Gospel of John was written about 90 AD, probably by a disciple of the apostle John recorded his master's teachings. All biblical scholars agree that it is very differert from the other three "synoptic" gospels; it was written after the Roman army conquored Jerusalem and burned the temple to the ground. Anti-semetism was high in the Ancient world at that time. Monotheism was seen as atheism, so those Jews who refused to pour out libations to the Roman gods could be seen as responsible for the anger the gods seemed to have for Rome. Maybe they were even blamed for the erruption of Vesuvius in AD 79. I don't know. But at any rate, Christians were becoming eager to distance themselves from Jews. The book uses difficult imagery and language to understand, if you're trying to read it as a historical text you're in for trouble. Some scholars call it a Gnostic text, others an anti-Gnostic text. Either way, it's not like the other gospels. To borrow a phrase, "Here there be dragons."

No biblical passage can be be pulled out of context. The verse you refer to "I am the Way" comes at the last supper. A short time before Jesus had raised Lazarus from the grave, which is what John says sets the Jewish priests on the path to Jesus' destruction. At the Last Supper, Jesus washes his disciples feet, a gesture of servitude and humility, as an example to his disciples to do the same. He sends Judas out to betray him. He tells the disciples what's about to happen. They don't believe him, Peter particularly complains, lord I would never betray you. Jesus says, don't be afraid, if I leave it's to prepare the way for you. Thomas asks, how will we follow you? and Jesus answerrs, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me. If you know me, you will know my father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him." Jesus gives his last teaching, about the coming of The Advocate (holy spirit), the rejection that the disciples will endure, and more. Mostly, he tries to comfort them and enjoin them to do as he has done. And what has he done? Washed the feet of his servants. His teaching ends at John 17:25-26: "Righteous Father, the world does not know you, but I know you; and these know that you have sent me. I made your name known to them, and I will make it known, so that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them."

So based on the complete reading, anchored in history and culture, I don't think Jesus was saying you have to repeat magic words so that you can go to Heaven when you die.

Jesus aligned himself with outcasts. He called a Samaritan "Good." In the Beatitudes, in Matthew 7:21, Jesus says "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven." I think he'd prefer compassionate Muslims, athiests, and agnostics over vitriolic and greedy self-identitfied Christians.

Mr. Livingston,

A couple of points. I am not sure that one can cast all the blame on the media for showing or over sensationalizing what Christians have only done to themselves. As a religion, Christians have done an absolutely stellar job in producing their own negative publicity over a consistent period of time. I personally believe it is because they love to point fingers at the "moral decay" in America while overlooking or flat out ignoring the flaws within their own. It has created several VERY high profile embarrassments over the past several decades which religions leaders and politicians got nailed for amoral sins against both God, church, and country.

Yes, yes, yes...we all know that we are all human and sin. However, when a person positions themselves as God's representative, stands on a pulpit, points fingers, tells others not to sin, preaches for others to vote for "moral" politicians, and then run around doing some of the most amoral acts known...how can detractors, non-believers, or people sitting on the fence NOT run away? It totally wrecks the reputation of everyone and no offense, but you are crying about what all group or organization cry about when tried in the court of public opinion. Christians really did have this coming to them.

Finally, I believe another backfire would be the roll of the church in politics. Bottom line...the GOP has used you as a tool for their political gains. They didn’t even really have to do much work. All they did was tell Christians they wanted to hear. They sold them on being morally sound, responsible candidates that are fiscally responsible, strong on defense, against gay anything, pro-life, and believe in God. Christians sucked it up like a black hole and based their votes on morals that change with the winds of time. You see…the GOP recognized long ago the amount of sway that religions leaders have over their congregation and used them to spread their message of support. As long as a person running for office read from the worn script, he/she had guaranteed votes irregardless of qualifications. I can’t tell you the number of times I have sat in church and heard pastors use their pulpit and influence for thinly veiled, yet inappropriate political messages and endorsements. I am Christian and it enrages me.

So while you make some very good and valid points, it really does seem like a cry over spilt milk. I mean no offense, but am I the only one to find it a wry irony that you are making the same exact point that peaceful Muslims make when they state that terrorists and extremist are giving their religion a bad name? Is it also ironic that Christians hindered ability to do anything about also mirrors Muslims? The Ann Coulter's of the world are not openly condoning and organizing violence upon others, that true. But the venom that spews forth from her mouth can be seen as just as damaging as everything else that I listed above. Radical is radical, whether it is to the left or to the right, Muslim or Christian.

All the same, thank you for your opinion.

dfm:

Will Jones:

Ann Coulter isn't "Christian," she is Roman Catholic no matter her present claim to the contrary. She is a failed woman and tool of the fascist plutocracy America's Founder, Thomas Jefferson, identified in 1819 as the "real Anti-Christ.

Prescott Bush claimed he was Episcopalian though in truth he, a front for Vatican-banker Rockefeller, was an initiated member of the Knights of Malta (who openly claim to run the Vatican) and served the Vatican as money conduit from their American Fifth Column to papal baron Fritz "The Rockefeller of Germany" Thyssen, author of "I Paid Hitler."

Countrymen, Patriots, We must learn to think historically as did the Whig Prophets who Founded Our Nation. They believed, and it is demonstrably true, that history unfolds as a conflict between Rome, and everyone else. As papal bulls claim Rome "owns the world" and all of us on it, it only makes sense when the path of their perfidy is easily traced:

Notice only the Roman Catholics on the Supreme Court voted to stop the Florida recount and make the homosexual, draft-dodging grandson of Prescott Bush president? Notice George H.W. Bush went on record while V.P. "unable to recall" his whereabouts upon hearing of John Kennedy's assassination by the Knight of Malta-led CIA (though two FBI memos put him on the phone to the FBI, on the subject, 75 minutes after the shots were fired, and in the CIA), six weeks after NSAM263 had ordered the military withdrawal from Rome's "latifundial" estate of Vietnam, in which the five percent Roman Catholics owned 95% of that country's wealth?

Coulter makes money serving the Anti-Christ's American Fifth Column: the same faction giving cover to Bush's "Reichstag Fire" of 9/11.

Due process must out. Someone get some rope. There's plenty to go around...their traitorous necks.

Hey Mr. Jones--you and Ann Coulter can shake hands!

...Wouldn't touch that skank with a ten-foot pole.

But please do tell us all watching Hitler’s banker’s homosexual grandson, whose father killed JFK to keep us in Rome’s Vietnam, get away with 9/11 and flood Our Country with illegal immigrants to take our jobs and to prop up the pedophile priesthood of Babylon, just how much smarter you are than America’s Founders:

America’s Founder Thomas Jefferson To Samuel Kercheval Monticello, January 19, 1810

SIR, -- Yours of the 7th instant has been duly received, with the pamphlet inclosed, for which I return you my thanks. Nothing can be more exactly and seriously true than what is there stated; that but a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandising their oppressors in Church and State; that the purest system of morals ever before preached to man, has been adulterated and sophisticated by artificial constructions, into a mere contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves; that rational men not being able to swallow their impious heresies, in order to force them down their throats, they raise the hue and cry of infidelity, while themselves are the greatest obstacles to the advancement of the real doctrines of Jesus, and do in fact constitute the real ANTI-CHRIST.

John Adams Diary [making the case for revolution] 1771. FEBY. 12.

At a Time, when the Barriers against POPERY, erected by our Ancestors, are suffered to be destroyed, to the hazard even of the Protestant Religion

dfm:

Will Jones:

Ann Coulter isn't "Christian," she is Roman Catholic no matter her present claim to the contrary. She is a failed woman and tool of the fascist plutocracy America's Founder, Thomas Jefferson, identified in 1819 as the "real Anti-Christ.

Prescott Bush claimed he was Episcopalian though in truth he, a front for Vatican-banker Rockefeller, was an initiated member of the Knights of Malta (who openly claim to run the Vatican) and served the Vatican as money conduit from their American Fifth Column to papal baron Fritz "The Rockefeller of Germany" Thyssen, author of "I Paid Hitler."

Countrymen, Patriots, We must learn to think historically as did the Whig Prophets who Founded Our Nation. They believed, and it is demonstrably true, that history unfolds as a conflict between Rome, and everyone else. As papal bulls claim Rome "owns the world" and all of us on it, it only makes sense when the path of their perfidy is easily traced:

Notice only the Roman Catholics on the Supreme Court voted to stop the Florida recount and make the homosexual, draft-dodging grandson of Prescott Bush president? Notice George H.W. Bush went on record while V.P. "unable to recall" his whereabouts upon hearing of John Kennedy's assassination by the Knight of Malta-led CIA (though two FBI memos put him on the phone to the FBI, on the subject, 75 minutes after the shots were fired, and in the CIA), six weeks after NSAM263 had ordered the military withdrawal from Rome's "latifundial" estate of Vietnam, in which the five percent Roman Catholics owned 95% of that country's wealth?

Coulter makes money serving the Anti-Christ's American Fifth Column: the same faction giving cover to Bush's "Reichstag Fire" of 9/11.

Due process must out. Someone get some rope. There's plenty to go around...their traitorous necks.

Hey Mr. Jones--you and Ann Coulter can shake hands!

...Wouldn't touch that skank with a ten-foot pole.

But please do tell us all watching Hitler’s banker’s homosexual grandson, whose father killed JFK to keep us in Rome’s Vietnam, get away with 9/11 and flood Our Country with illegal immigrants to take our jobs and to prop up the pedophile priesthood of Babylon, just how much smarter you are than America’s Founders:

America’s Founder Thomas Jefferson To Samuel Kercheval Monticello, January 19, 1810

SIR, -- Yours of the 7th instant has been duly received, with the pamphlet inclosed, for which I return you my thanks. Nothing can be more exactly and seriously true than what is there stated; that but a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandising their oppressors in Church and State; that the purest system of morals ever before preached to man, has been adulterated and sophisticated by artificial constructions, into a mere contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves; that rational men not being able to swallow their impious heresies, in order to force them down their throats, they raise the hue and cry of infidelity, while themselves are the greatest obstacles to the advancement of the real doctrines of Jesus, and do in fact constitute the real ANTI-CHRIST.

John Adams Diary [making the case for revolution] 1771. FEBY. 12.

At a Time, when the Barriers against POPERY, erected by our Ancestors, are suffered to be destroyed, to the hazard even of the Protestant Religion

Hi E favorite:

LOL - great post. Bottled water. Good one. Make that bottled holy water. Although I'm not Catholic so forget that.

=====
One wonders why jesus himself couldn't have devised a better communications system, but as long as he hasn't, then it sounds like all the good Christians should leave places like the US and head for the corners of the world that Christianity has not adequately penetrated.
=====

actually perhaps he did. If you read the gospel you'll find that the Holy Spirit didn't decend upon the world until after Christ left. This "sprit" can speak to all of us at the same time. To our hearts. It would seam that while on Earth Christ was limited by his human form and could not accomplish this task as a man. He simply taught his message and then died for our sins (pretty big accomplishment i'd say). Now we have the Holy Spirit to help guide us. Kind of a wild concept. Who knows how it works or to what extent. I read in revelelation or some such prophetic book of the bible years ago about the end times when the spirt will actually leave the earth. These will be dark times. It sounded like the spirit was actually keeping us from killing each other outright. Without it we can't resist our human tendancies for rage and sin. However, Those who have accepted Christ at this point in time are to be protected. Interesting.

scooter

I live in a small (pop: 20,000) midwest town which is dotted on every corner with fundamentallist churches. All of our elected city officials are Republicans. Our school boards are dominated by fundamentallist. Recently a friend and I stopped in a local restaurant for pie after we had attended a play. Our waitress was a beautiful young woman wearing an obvious cross necklace who, as we discovered, was pregnant, with her third child.She had two small sons whom she said she was home-schooling. My friend ask her if she was a born-again Christian to which she glowingly replied that she surely was, and added that her parents were good strong Christian people also. Then my friend asked her how she felt about the upcoming 2008 election. She said she didn't know much about politics but that she trusted that God would give us another good Christian president like George Bush.And then she added that she believed that either Giuliani or Rommeny were good Christian men. Then I ask her how she felt about all the Iraqui people that had died during the war and she said, "Well, that is too bad, but they had attacked us." This is what Christian values have boiled down to all across America because this is what these fundamentalist are teaching in litle community churches. These born-again Christians are all good people but they are being taught to vote against their own personal best interests as well as the best interests of our country.They do not understand the danger this country faces, and have no way of understanding because they are taught not to question.

tim:
For me, Christianity translates primarily to:

- hatred of gays
- lockstep anti-choice attitudes
- fear of immigrants
- intolerance of other faiths
- us versus them mindset
- our way or no way
- ignorance over knowledge
- God belongs to us and no one else

Why would I want to be part of it?
_____________________________________________
I just wanted to let you know that what you said is not true! Jesus Loves all of us even the ones who proclaim themselves Christian and promote the things you said above! Either far side of and political/ religious sights can prove to be harmful, but again if you take the time to sit and read the Matthew, *Mark*, Luke or John, You can see that Jesus loves everyone!!! Because of my faith I can say that no matter what you believe God created you and loves you, and there is nothing you can say or do to prevent that. Martin Luther King Jr. said "thank God Jesus said that we have to LOVE everyone and not to like everyone!" I have by problems with people associated with Christianly all the time (and my husband is a minister) , but through it all I know God loves me! It's made me realize it's not about me it's about God!!!!! I take what my church "slogan" is :open hearts Open minds, open doors. this goes for everyone (even the ones we dont like) Don't let a few bad apples ruin Christianity for you, remember...God Loves you and so do I!

"Yet come together on such matters as living wage, racism, health care, justice for women, and an unjust war in Iraq," plus, one need hardly add, practicing meaningful stewardship of the environment and doing something about the grinding and wholly unacceptable level of poverty and disease in the Third World. Perhaps if those two issues where further to the fore of NCC thinking they might hold more appeal to young people? Not that the other issues aren't important, they are, but some issues reach younger people more readily and those are two of them that clearly did not spring immediately to the writer's mind - a telling couple of omissions.

Hi TruthShallSetUsFree:

I hear ya. And get what your saying. I've struggled with many such questions. But have in a sense decided to "take a leap of faith" and just believe in something that can't be explained by my limited understanding of the universe alone. Sometimes I waiver about these decisions (Seems normal), but for whatever reason it just feels right or true to me. So I believe. Not sure what else I can say or do about that. So I'm stuck going about it one way only. 100% committed to trying to be more like Christ (seems like I'm at about 1% of that goal most of the time).

btw - I can't stand Ann Coulter either. She's a nut. Not that I wouln't offer her food and shelter - Christ still loves her and therefore so should I. But man she drives me nuts. LOL.

best wishes,
Scooter

Religion was invented by men in order to create a kleptocracy, i.e. rule by thieves. The Bible, Torah, Koran, Bhagavad Gita and all religious books were written by men to control other men. Wake up humans, you control your own destiny and when you die your remains fertilize the soil for the next generation, period. There is a reason worldwide attendance at religious services declines year after year. Religion is just some people seeking to control weaker people with superstition and outright lies.

Scooter - you better get busy - there are millions out there who haven't heard CHrist's message. You've got a responsibility as a christian, right, to spread the word - otherwise you'll be responsible for their deaths?

One wonders why jesus himself couldn't have devised a better communications system, but as long as he hasn't, then it sounds like all the good Christians should leave places like the US and head for the corners of the world that Christianity has not adequately penetrated.

take plenty of bottled water.

Will Jones:

Ann Coulter isn't "Christian," she is Roman Catholic no matter her present claim to the contrary. She is a failed woman and tool of the fascist plutocracy America's Founder, Thomas Jefferson, identified in 1819 as the "real Anti-Christ.

Prescott Bush claimed he was Episcopalian though in truth he, a front for Vatican-banker Rockefeller, was an initiated member of the Knights of Malta (who openly claim to run the Vatican) and served the Vatican as money conduit from their American Fifth Column to papal baron Fritz "The Rockefeller of Germany" Thyssen, author of "I Paid Hitler."

Countrymen, Patriots, We must learn to think historically as did the Whig Prophets who Founded Our Nation. They believed, and it is demonstrably true, that history unfolds as a conflict between Rome, and everyone else. As papal bulls claim Rome "owns the world" and all of us on it, it only makes sense when the path of their perfidy is easily traced:

Notice only the Roman Catholics on the Supreme Court voted to stop the Florida recount and make the homosexual, draft-dodging grandson of Prescott Bush president? Notice George H.W. Bush went on record while V.P. "unable to recall" his whereabouts upon hearing of John Kennedy's assassination by the Knight of Malta-led CIA (though two FBI memos put him on the phone to the FBI, on the subject, 75 minutes after the shots were fired, and in the CIA), six weeks after NSAM263 had ordered the military withdrawal from Rome's "latifundial" estate of Vietnam, in which the five percent Roman Catholics owned 95% of that country's wealth?

Coulter makes money serving the Anti-Christ's American Fifth Column: the same faction giving cover to Bush's "Reichstag Fire" of 9/11.

Due process must out. Someone get some rope. There's plenty to go around...their traitorous necks.

Hey Mr. Jones--you and Ann Coulter can shake hands!

What is interesting to me is that during my four years in the Middle East, I would hear Ann Coultergeisty comments from even moderate Muslims: i.e., "We respect Christianity as an Abrahamic faith, but Islam is a perfection of Christianity." Religion often seems to be just one big daisy chain of bigotry. I am getting sick and tired of all of these "people of faith."

"X" might have meant "philosophical" as well as "political". Either way point taken.

It's offensive to assume all Americans are guided by Divine Providence guiding our political system.

We should be religious on our own time.

Thank you! This article was a breath of fresh air. All of the media attention that this riotous bigot receives is harmful to the true Christian community, which is loving and inclusive.

You don't even need to read the Bible or be a Christian to know that this woman is a phony. She is not a Christian and I wish she would stop perpetrating as though she is. I don't even know who Ann Coulter represents--possibly the Aryan nation?

Please, put this woman back under the rock from which she crawled.

Thank you! This article was a breath of fresh air. All of the media attention that this riotous bigot receives is harmful to the true Christian community, which is loving and inclusive.

You don't even need to read the Bible or be a Christian to know that this woman is a phony. She is not a Christian and wish she would stop perpetrating as though she is. I don't even know who Ann Coulter represents--possibly the Aryan nation?

Please, put this woman back under the rock from which she crawled.

I suspect there might just be a big need for Government housing in Hades someday.

To Scooter:

I have no problem with you believing the way that you do. The problem is when you say things like, ".....desire for truth, love, honesty, justice, goodness, etc. etc. These are the things we all desire and can only come to know through a relationship with God." How do you know this??? The problem is that rational individuals tend to rely on facts and evidence when you decide to utilize faith. Yet, you are entirely sure that this path is the only way and that, in the absence of evidence, is ridiculous and illogical. It's like saying, "The Redskins are going to win the Super Bowl this year, because Joe Gibbs believes they can do it and I believe Joe Gibbs to be the best coach in the NFL." What you're saying is essentially, "Jesus said so and I believe Jesus to be the 1 true prophet so I'm right and you're going to burn in hell."

And regarding Ann Coulter, the author skips the fact that she continues to show up on Fox News and receive right wing support. If you don't want me to associate her with the right wing, then how about you guys on the right stop interviewing her and chastize her beliefs with the same vigor that you do democratic initiatives. Unfortunately, that can't be done, because a significant portion of the right agrees with her.

The poor, the least among us? This Jesus fellow must have been a leberal. Gasp!

Hi Rob Bailey:

Good question.

Question for Mr. Livingston: Can anyone be saved from eternal judgement and damnation outside of Jesus??

Short story is no. Not if you actually believe what Christ himself taught. This isn't meant to be mean or hurtful or anti-something or other. It's just the truth. Getting people to fall in love with Christ so that they choose his gift of salvation is our job as Christians. It's what Jesus asked us to do. I hope you don't find this offensive, but if so what should I do. Change my beliefs, or His message so you feel better? Wouldn't that just be a diservice to you? What happens on the day He comes back and those who were never told the truth about Christ's message look around and say "why didn't you tell us this message?" Wouldn't I be equally responsible for you death if I chose not to share because I was too worried about being PC.

Just a thought,
Tx
scooter

This sounds neat in theory, but upon what data does our author preach the majority of xtians are in fact different than the extremist views? I've heard this same issue yelped about from other religions, but it seems unsupported by data.

Hey faux-Christians, remember Jesus was a liberal. Do unto others etc. Your homophobic anti immigrant, your-way-or-the-highway views are parallel to that of the Taliban and Fascist Germany. If being gay were "so bad" then way isn't Dont Be Gay one of the 10 Commandments, eh? You know, the 10 things Christians so desperately need on the walls of schools and lawns of courthouses.

I believe those that wear their religion on their sleeves are frauds.

And Ann Coulter? Puh-lease. She's no different than Howard Stern. They say things to shock and surprise and to gain relevance. But yet again, Christians are shocked at what Howard says for fun and accept what Coulter has to say as Fact and Truth.

And this is coming from a 33 yr old raised Catholic in MA - now you can understand why I'm so bullsh!t about religion AND politics. Catholic Church is the great hypocrites - hate women and promote pedophila and homosexuality. F'n A. They can all go pound sand and I'LL ANSWER TO THE MAN WHEN AND IF THAT DAY COMES - not by the so called Christian right or some Islamic fundamentalist dirtbag.

Micheal, great article. As a Christian and a bible thumper of new I find daily wisdom from Joel Osteen and his congregation. He believes that our GOD is a good GOD and he tells us daily of ways to remember to praise the LORD.

I think that Christians are willing to accept many whom they disagree with as brothers and sisters in the faith. Not because they want to be associated with hatred and ignorance. no, the truth is that the requirements to be a Christian are not rigid enough:

"Whoever calls on the name of the LORD will be saved."

Yes, it's just way too easy to get into the church. We've just got to make it tougher so we can weed-out the undesireables, the windbags, the unrepentent bigots.

But that's why I love the Church. All are welcome, even the ones I don't particularly like. And even though I think that having a "big-mouth" is a heinous sin, it's not my job to point it out (or any other sin for that matter). That's God's job. I don't have to worry about what anyone else is doing (though I may not always like it).

Once I'm a member, I only have one job: Love.
Love God and love others. It's really not that complicated, but it can be very difficult!

By the way, have you noticed that the only ones Jesus ever condemns are the people that want to send everyone else to hell?

Kurt Cannon:

These so-called Christians, I say so-called because I doubt Jesus would embrace these folks, have always had spokespeople like Coulter, willing to spew hatred and prejudice in the name of the Lord. one was a devout Catholic name Adolph Hitler. The Catholic church actually excommunicated people who would not join the Nazis. These folks, Coulter, Dobson, et al sound alarmingly similar.

Say what?? Hitler may have been born into a Catholic family, but as an adult he rejected the faith and maintained an ambivalent attitude toward it. He despised and ridiculed many of its practices. Get your facts straight, please.

what a Cu*T Coulter is.

Poor old Abe said:

You can please some of the people all of the time.
All of the people some of the time,
But you can’t please all of the people all of the time.
(or words to that effect)

Anyone who doubts that should read the comments in the Washington Post.

Whenever I make some all inclusive comment about the Islamic religion in the presence of a liberal, they immediately jump up and state Not ALL Muslims are like that. Of course this is true, as with most generalizations. What I’ve noticed with the liberals is they never make those allowances for Christianity.

If I were to make a blatantly exaggerated comments about Christians not one liberal would come to it’s defence. “Selective righteous indignation.” Every religion or political point of view has its fair share of “A@#oles”. But the far right and the far left have damned near cornered the market.

I believe in God,
I am a Christian,
I am not perfect, but I like to think I’m a work-in-progress.
That last line was a joke folks.

Nice try. Not good enough. Blaming the media is pretty lame.

The real crime here is the billions of dollars spent by the neo-con faction on a propoganda machine that Goebbles and Stalin could only dream about. T.V., the internet, neo-con publishing houses, it never seems to end.

The resulting tragedy is that good, honest, hardworking, god fearing patriotic, conservative Americans have been beaten into believing that any alternative point of view on public policy is a threat to their religious values and the American way of life.

The resulting hatred and polarization has allowed the Iraq War and the raping of the national treasury to go amost unnoticed.

They should be horrified at what has been done in the name of Christ.

A word on Ann Coulter...Althogh she does deserve to be vilified, a little compassion if you please. She doesn't look well. Se is very thin and appears Jaundiced on T.V. She should take some time off and look after her health.

John 14:6 can certainly be understood in other ways than "believing the right things" in order to get into heaven. Jesus actually talked very little of heaven - to him, the "kingdom of God" was an earthly reality. Reductionism of biblical language to meet the needs of fundamentalist theology has eviscerated biblical language. The chief end of Christianity is not to "get people to heaven," but to enable them to live in God's grace and love one another (live in the "kingdom of God"). Jesus' statement may reveal a greater reality, one not tied to first-century Jewish sacrificial practices. Perhaps, as Paul seems to intimate in Romans, it is that the way of Jesus - the Gospel, the good news of God's grace and love for all people - is the way that all must come to God. In that way, Jesus reveals God's own suffering nature - a suffering in our behalf - which is the "truth" we live in. Even in John's Gospel, which is heavy on the theology of Jesus as a vicarous sacrifice, the focus is not on his getting us to heaven through that sacrifice. Jesus' sacrifice is "for all (pantes)," enabling his continued ministry in the world through the work of the Holy Spirit.

Hey Dave McManus:

I wanted to comment on your reply to orthdoxy. See below.

======
Everyone is enjoined to Christ; so, those of us who don't claim to be, or may still be on our journey (see Jacob's story) are all going to hell. What a nice way to bring people to glory; fear.

I eagerly await your condemnation and prayers for my damned soul...
======

He did come accross a bit on the harsh side. He could have stated it better. With more warmth and compasion, yet the gist was correct (in terms of what the message of the Gospel is). Christ himself taught his diciples that there is only one way to the Father (God), and that was through the Son (Jesus). The requirement on our part is simple. Accept the gift of salvation that Christ has extended to us (he died for our sins). We need to nothing more. However, if we don't accept this gift for whatever reason (perhaps the journey you describe has not lead you to the point where you have made this decision) then you would infact be destroyed by the Lord upon his return to Earth (Second Coming). This isn't because He wants you to perish or suffer. Quite the contrary. That's why he came to die so that you may live. The reason those who have not chosen the gift must die is because death is the price for Sin (seperation from God). I'm not claiming to understand why Death is the price a life must pay for this seperation. Many could debate this for a lifetime. If we believe what is written in the Bible then this is the way it is. Also, I don't feel driven by the need for eternal life out of fear of death. I think any relationship with God based on fear is not based on a solid foundation and would seamingly fail. A true relationship with God should be based on our desire for truth, love, honesty, justice, goodness, etc. etc. These are the things we all desire and can only come to know through a relationship with God. Here's hoping you do make that decision and that we can meet one day in Heaven to discuss these things. Would be very cool.

scooter

Ann Coulter? Ann who? This broad is nothing but a big mouth self promoter who has no qualms on berating any one who disagree with her shallow, selfish outlook of the world. She should not be given unnecessary attention. Ignore her.

OK, so Ann Coulter is not representative of Christians--or of most conservatives, for that matter. That's fine, if true. And when conservatives and Christians start condemning her viewpoints with the same vigor they use to condemn their political adversaries, I'll refrain from characterizing her as a poster child for the Christian Right.

I'd like to say it would be enough just to ignore her and let her blow away into well-deserved anonymity--but the supposedly left-wing media and her right-wing book customers won't let that happen. So, to paraphrase the old saw: If you ain't agin' her, you're for her.

I grew up on the plains in the midwest, where evangelicals were plentiful if not dominant.
But they were fine people, decent, abiding, etc. Caring and generous, certainly.
This new edition of 'evangelicals' is meanspirited, angry, offensive. Plying the
same old words and phrases that make even their
erstwhile defenders cringe...or gag.
No attempt to convert or lead by example...just scream in rage and anger and hate.
And of course there are forces trying to whip them up for political advantage. Ugly, ugly ugly.
Rewarding to know that they see the end of their hold on the body politic...screaming in rage as Americans turn away from them.

Perhaps Dalai Lama can teach us all something. Here Quote His Holieness (see: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/17/AR2007101701140.html):

A scientist from Chile once told me that it is inappropriate for a scientist to be attached to his particular field of study, because that would undermine his objectivity. I am a Buddhist practitioner, but if I mix up my devotion for Buddhism with an attachment to it, my mind will be biased toward it. A biased mind never sees the complete picture, and any action that results will not be in tune with reality. If religious practitioners can heed this scientist's advice and refrain from being attached to their own faith traditions, it could prevent the growth of fundamentalism. It also could enable such followers to genuinely respect faith traditions other than their own. I often say that while one can adhere to the principle of "one truth, one religion" at the level of one's personal faith, we should embrace at the same time the principle of "many truths, many religions" in the context of wider society. I see no contradiction between these two.

Ann Coulter? Ann who? This broad is nothing but a big mouth self promoter who has no qualms on berating any one who disagree with her shallow, selfish outlook of the world. She should not be given unnecessary attention. Ignore her.

Correction to X's comment, I think "philosophical" is more accurate than "political". But point nicely taken. Not everyone is inclined to believe that God is our guiding force.

Finally, an article about the reality of Christians. I couldn't agree more about the bad reputations that Christians have to bear. I know that as a Christian I'll face persecution and contempt, but when people feel that Christians are hypocritical and false? Thank you, Mr. and Mrs. Holier Than Thou, for the scorning look I receive every time I share what I believe. Stay on the basics, read the Bible and believe and let go of forcing religion, comparing holiness, and dictating what is or isn't in God's will for a person. It's a relationship, not a set of rules.

This is not new for me. I was very much into Evangelical Religion from the time I graduated college in 1957 until the late 60's. I was turned off completely by the mixing of right wing politics and religion then. I remember being taken to a convention of the National Association of Evengelicals in Chicaco where Herbert Philbrick (I led three lives-FBI) was the keynote speaker. It was a parody on reality at best. Then, while I was a member and leader of the anti-war/civil rights movement, our family car had bumper stickers ripped off in the church parking lot.

I understand your desire for people to see that the radicals are not all of Christianity. However, they did succeed in dominating public life and National Policy. The obvious question is:"Why does their message of fear, hate and intollerance prevail?" It would seem that one conclusion is that the less radical forms of Christianity can not bring about the response they desire. Power corrupts and it is doing that here.

Others are not so willing to look at the doctrinal differences among Christian sects.
I recently read "God is Red" by Vine Deloria Jr. He makes a good case for the failure really being in Christianity itself. His comparison between Native American religious beliefs and Western Christianity is very scholarly and his conclusions are very convincing. Western Christianity seems to have bred the very extremes that the moderates seem to want to separate themselves from. I don't think that can be done. To outsiders you are all part of the same problem, not a solution.

This is not new for me. I was very much into Evangelical Religion from the time I graduated college in 1957 until the late 60's. I was turned off completely by the mixing of right wing politics and religion then. I remember being taken to a convention of the National Association of Evengelicals in Chicaco where Herbert Philbrick (I led three lives-FBI) was the keynote speaker. It was a parody on reality at best. Then, while I was a member and leader of the anti-war/civil rights movement, our family car had bumper stickers ripped off in the church parking lot.

I understand your desire for people to see that the radicals are not all of Christianity. However, they did succeed in dominating public life and National Policy. The obvious question is:"Why does their message of fear, hate and intollerance prevail?" It would seem that one conclusion is that the less radical forms of Christianity can not bring about the response they desire. Power corrupts and it is doing that here.

Others are not so willing to look at the doctrinal differences among Christian sects.
I recently read "God is Red" by Vine Deloria Jr. He makes a good case for the failure really being in Christianity itself. His comparison between Native American religious beliefs and Western Christianity is very scholarly and his conclusions are very convincing. Western Christianity seems to have bred the very extremes that the moderates seem to want to separate themselves from. I don't think that can be done. To outsiders you are all part of the same problem, not a solution.

Two things:

1. There's way too much emphasis on God with our politics. The founding fathers lived in the age of Enlightenment, their fight for Liberty was political, not religious. Simply put: keep religion and politics separate. Our candidates stand behind their crosses for votes.

2. Ann Coulter is a pig.

"They seek to follow the words and actions of Jesus reminding his followers about taking care of the widow and the orphan, the hungry, welcoming the stranger, clothing the naked and visiting the prisoner." The living Jesus, not the resurrected Jesus. But the Christianists to whom you refer focus on the resurrected Jesus, not the living Jesus. And for that, we can thank Paul, about whom Jefferson once commented that Pilate may have killed Jesus' body, Paul destroyed his soul.

Well, too damn bad for Christianity and the Christians.

It's waaaaaay too late in the game to be feinging innocense now and trying to run from teh building backlash against the rantings of far right - Zealots who exploited the holier than thou attitude of a lot of the religious right for political and financial gain. Zelots and fanatics like Anne Coulter.

Where the hell (excuse the ungodly pun) have you all been for the last 30 years? Enjoying the hell out of every venmous accusation Coulter and her far right ilk hurled at the Clintons, I suspect.

Well, to quote a famous author of a famous book: "Ye shall reap what ye shall sow."

OR to be a bit more "folksy," like those phony far right country folk: When you lay down with dogs, you wake up with fleas."

And So Be It, then. Amen.

Cambellite/Anon,

I join E Fav in praising your moderate brand of Christianity, and also question that you are actually a Christian. You seem to believe in god, but do not seem to accept the core Christian tenet that acceptance of Christ as savior is required for entry into heaven.

You seem to be more Budhist than Christian.

Please answer the following:

Who if any among the following will go to heaven assuming that they love their neighbors and lead exemplary lives in every way: Muslims, atheists, agnostics?

Remember Jesus Christ's words:

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Orthodoxy:

You and your ilk are the cause of many of the problems in this country.
Jews do not want your bullcrap and neither do I.

Just go away!

let me get this right. you expectation is for people that practice irrational thought, to somehow think rationally?

what if you turned on the television one day and saw two adults having a serious discussion on the powers of superman and what kyrptonite means to him. what if there was a discussion on not giving in to lex luthor...

the beauty of life is in the details we're discovering.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

"Render unto Caesar..." is inoperative in America because America's Founders were anti-caesaropapist Whigs who knew "Caesar" was the "King and Pope" of the Ancien Regime - and established Individual Sovereignty of the New Secular Order: Novus Ordo Seclorem.

Rome's Fifth Column is treasonously putting "Caesar" back over us by using the "Italian Solution" to assassinate our leaders, committing false war and reducing us to slaves in our own land.

Death for Treason. Coulter, Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly, Bush, Cheney, Rockefeller, the Romish Church...all guilty.

What about Ms Coulter’s appearance, behavior, or personality screams Christian ideals? A nearly fifty year old bachelorette/ party girl with the wardrobe and personality of a dominatrix, she essentially personifies the lifestyle she claims to oppose. “Windbag” by her own self description, she proudly admits to sinking into a funk anytime her writings fail to inspire public criticism (i.e. attention). This is a person seeking attention and nothing more. Why even mention her in a discussion about Christian leadership? Her previous profession as a lawyer hardly makes her an authority on religious scriptures or doctrines of any kind nor does her lifestyle indicate that she takes them seriously if she has in fact ever read them. The same can be said for many of the “Christian Right’s” leading voices including- Dr. Laura Schleisinger, Mr. Limbaugh, etc. These people are political commentators first (not even very good ones at that) and Christians second if at all. If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck it’s a duck. They get so much air time for the same reasons that circuses and professional wrestling matches tend to draw larger audiences than a lively public hearing on re-zoning proposals. Pure entertainment value. While there is now, just as there always has been, internal struggle among Christian factions (this tends to happen with just about any large group of people by the way) and public opinion of the Christian community continues to evolve, anyone who can’t separate the antics of Ms. Coulter and her ilk from the actual debate really isn’t smart enough to participate.

Excellent article! I am catholic and I agree with everything you wrote.

Thanks,

Pat Mans
Porterfield, WI

When an Earthquake hits it does not ask the people about their religion. It's shameful that a country like ours (The U.S.) is still not gotten rid of organized religion. Ann Coulter is just another blind religious person. Using the same religion she could justify everything even her stupid ideas, racism, slavery and War in Iraq regardless of the innocent lives lost everyday in Baghdad!

Hello,
So now it is the media's fault (and find me some of these media people who are NOT Christians) that these right-wing horridly creepy self-righteous Christians' beliefs are shown to the world? BS. If you Christians want people not to think you are like Coulter, Dobson and Limbaugh and the others who preach hate on their way to "heaven," then put them down, speak against their ravings and start shining your light. Simple as that. By their works ye shall know them. So do the work: be kind, generous, accepting and loving. People will catch on.
Jan

You can be a hell of a lot to the left of Ann Coulter and still be a superstitious, homophobic, anti-Choice wingnut.

So you're not a Leftist?

Question for Mr. Livingston: Can anyone be saved from eternal judgement and damnation outside of Jesus??

This broad is a closet queen !!
The female counterpart (not as
fat) of rush limbaugh !!!!

This broad is a closet queen !!
The female counterpart (not as
fat) of rush limbaugh !!!!

Ann Coulter is a person? But she is a woman! How un-Christian of her.

Yes Ann DOES represent the political religious right in this country and now since finally Americans are seeing how wrong, unethical, destructive and evil these people are they (the people who put Annie on the TV and in the newspaper) are getting scared of the truth.

I agree that loudmouth opportunists like Coulter play the media and, in effect, slander/libel most christians by emphasizing power and facetime instad of Jesus. It's no coincidence that they have a sneaking but very clear mistrust of Jesus, and use the Old Testament overwhelmingly to "support" their claims. I consider them really anti-Christians, in the sense that if Jesus were here now they would spit their ready venom at his inclusive, war-wary message.

However, it's up to Christians to keep their house in order, as Rev. Livingston is clearly trying to do with this essay. Sitting by for decades while people betray your principles as they pretend to speak for them ends up making the lies true, at least by default. So Christians, more than anyone, should respond and object at the same time as they are turning the other cheek.

Unfortunately, the more moderate and leftish Christian voices are not heard. The "extreme right" Chritians seem not so extreme and seem to have a great deal of power; as evidence, look at Bush's success and the fact that most Republican presidential candidates are evolution deniers. If moderate and leftish Christians are so strong in numbers, why isn't there more emphasis on social morality (e.g. helping those less fortunate) rather than the strong emphasis only on personal morality.

Mr. Livingston: Amen. The Lord Jesus has called us to love God and all our neighbors, including our enemies, for the purposes of His kingdom and not gain of this world, as our highest priority. Those that do otherwise in His name, are not doing so in His service. I find that this fact will, eventually, become far clearer.

Jonathan E. Brickman
805 SW Jewell Ave
Topeka, KS 66606
(785) 233-9977
jeb@joshuacorps.org

I don't know what you mean by "the media". I don't have cable television. When I surf around the channels my antenna recieves, at least half of them are evangelical, including two spanish-speaking channels. When I search my A.M. radio dial in the car, half the stations are Christian stations. Isn't this "the media" too? In fact isn't the old stereotype of a liberal, Jewish-controlled media a completely transparent myth at this point?. Christian conservatives have as large a presence in the media as any other ideological block. So are you telling me these aren't the "real" Christians?

Mr. Livingston: Amen. The Lord Jesus has called us to love God and all our neighbors, including our enemies, for the purposes of His kingdom and not gain of this world, as our highest priority. Those that do otherwise in His name, are not doing so in His service. I find that this fact will, eventually, become far clearer.

Jonathan E. Brickman
805 SW Jewell Ave
Topeka, KS 66606
(785) 233-9977
jeb@joshuacorps.org

I believe Rev. Livingston when he says that most Christians in the U.S. do not identify with the extreme religious right. However, his claim that most religious organizations are not far-right strikes me as disingenuous. If you don't want to be identified with extremists like Ann Coulter, then publicly come out and say so. People mistake your silence for approval. If you want to establish your own identity, make yourselves visible. Don't just sit back and complain about it.

If mainstream Christianity does not support the rhetoric of the far right wing of the GOP, then I suggest you speak out now and loudly. Otherwise if you don't speak out ( as you have not over the past 6 years), then you will default as part of the far right wing stance on politics and the insulting anti-christian rhetoric spewing from that group.

I am Christian and I speak out against the destructive rhetoric coming from the far right; but I am not a church, I am just a lone individual, crying in the wilderness it seems.

Extremists are bad no matter what form they take. For one to assume that christians, muslim's, republican's or democrats philosophy's are ALL bad, evil, etc. simply show's a lack of intellgence. The reality is american's are too dumb to realize this hence the rally behind "groups and organizations" as a way to blame the machine for them not being able to take control of their own lives. No one want's to say I'm stupid,weak, lazy and have no skills so it's much easier to blame Pope john paul and christians for what's wrong with them. Just as the world is not going to take care of everyone, there are no evil forces making sure specific groups fail. Human rights are trampled all over the world, not by religion or political policies, rather by INDIVIDUAL's quest for power and wealth. These are HUMAN traits, not the traits of political ideology or religion.

Sure there are many things and people in our daily lives who upset us and they may hide behind a cause to justify there hatred or lack of humanity, but don't discount what they are hiding behind as bad just because the person is.

If more of us looked for the good in things and others maybe things would be better for all. Instead the wacko's continue to fight these battles of extreme opinions while the majority of the masses laughs at the stupidity of each. In the meantime press and media make all the money in pushing the agenda's of all groups to the stupid masses:) Enjoy the idiocracy!

Yes, Coulter represents an extreme. But the figures (in the form of those affiliating themselves with specific denominations) show that what might be called "mainstream" Christianity is losing ground, while the evangelical groups decried here are expanding. Christianity in America, it seems, is in fact becoming more conservative, and the media portrayal at least partly reflects that fact.

More to the point, as long as extremists such as Coulter and Dobson are not challenged by Christians, they will represent Christianity to many. When Pat Robertson announced that Hurricane Katrina was God's punishment to New Orleans for its evil homosexual ways, where were the mainstream Christian churches decrying that view as unChristian?

After all, given the fact that the areas most identified with homosexual activity were largely spared and the worst damage to life and property occurred in areas much more likely to be "Christian," the statement seems to say that God is both vengeful and a lousy aim- hardly what most mainstream Christians want to argue. Yet what major denominations have made it their business to contradict such statements? At the time, I looked for some sort of organized statement to that effect from the mainstream denominations (to the public- not in private)-and did not find it.

I fear that the mainstream Christians must confront the same taunt which many have thrown at Islam: if you do not actively denounce what you regard as a radical misinterpretation of your religion, you must agree with the radicals.

It is somewhat unfair, then, to blame young people for viewing Christianity as a bigoted, hypocritical religion- they see such people setting themselves up as exemplars of the faith, and no one who claims to be a committed Christian denouncing them.

The silent majority allows the radical right to ursurp their religion. Silence is an abrogation of duty to god. They deserve it.

The silent majority allows the radical right to ursurp their religion. Silence is an abrogation of duty to god. They deserve it.

The silent majority allows the radical right to ursurp their religion. Silence is an abrogation of duty to god. They deserve it.

I'm sorry, but mainstream Christian leaders have had plenty of opportunities to speak up. Where were/are they? I realize some are busy doing good things, but for the most part they have been silent. It is difficult for the media to report on moderate leaders when they aren't saying or writing anything.

Many people are wringing their hands because younger people (correctly) view Christianity as sexist, homophobic, anti-science, and willing to pry into people's private lives. I'm pleased that people are finally figuring out that the United States does not have to be another fundamentalist religious state.

Ann Coulter's hateful words (the Paris Hilton of Politics) could not be any further from the teachings of Jesus. Like so many far right ultra-conservatives their words are truly meaningless.

Wow,

What a great view and positive article! Being a practicing American Catholic, I can agree with all the Reverend's themes of love, tolerance, compassion, and respect for the diversity of religions and individuals in our society. The rights endowed to all of us through our creator and a freedom from one religion have given us Americans a direct mandate for loving your neighbor and your enemies.

cambellite - I almost left "love" in my revised statemnt - it's fine with me, but I thought "respect" would be easier for more people (especially atheists) to accept.

When you have a moment - check out my latest post on the starhawk thread.

Reminds me of my ex-wife, who was bipolar. Loved the attention that being outrageous brought. If you said the sky was blue and the grass was green, she'd say it was the opposite. Life had to be a conflict. There seems to be a lot of that going around these days that passes for news and information. The easiest way to tell a bipolar is that if it seems really irrational, it's probably not you. If it continues, it's probably them. (Comment about the present administration irrationally deleted)

Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's.

There is too much religion in politics which is of this life and too much politics in religion which is of another life. We are here in this life. The churched need to be concerned with that other life and they can do so in their churches. If they don't want Coulter there, that's fine and if they want her there, that's fine too, as long as they stay in their churches and leave the business of the people to the people who know what life they're living in, this one, not the next one.

DoctorG -

The Old Testament does not define "orthodox Christianity." The Old Testament might define orthodox Jewish belief, but not orthodox Christian belief. Orthodox Christianity accepts the scriptures of the Old Testament as its own, but seen through the eyes of the New Testament revelation concerning Jesus. Martin Luther expressed this well when he said that the Old Testament, for Christians, must be seen through the "lens" of the Gospel. That lens does not allow us to simply pull verses out of the Old Testament (or the New, for that matter), and simply slap them on any given situation. Both must be read with an eye to the Gospel - the "good news" of God's revelation in Jesus.

For instance, one of the first things the church did, after the Council of Jamnia, when it was kicked out of the synagogues, was to adopt the practice of worshipping on Sunday, rather than on the Sabbath (Saturday). It reinterpreted the law, "Remember the Sabbath, to keep it holy," to refer to the rest of faith in Christ, and so celebrated that rest on the day of his resurrection - Sunday (also in keeping with Paul's observation, that, to God, one day is the same as another). Christians believe that their relationship to God is not based on the keeping of the Old Testament covenant of the law, but on a faith relationship with God based on Jesus.

Concerning the Old Testament "holy wars," none of the mainline churches hold this theology, which is antithetical to Jesus' teachings. The two theologies, to which one or the other most mainline churches subscribe, are either pacifism (turning the other cheek), or the "Just War" theory, Thomas Aquinas' attempt to limit the conditions under which rulers might go to war, which sets a number of standards, none of which, by the way, would qualify the present conflict as "just."

Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's.

There is too much religion in politics which is of this life and too much politics in religion which is of another life. We are here in this life. The churched need to be concerned with that other life and they can do so in their churches. If they don't want Coulter there, that's fine and if they want her there, that's fine too, as long as they stay in their churches and leave the business of the people to the people who know what life they're living in, this one, not the next one.

E Fav, glad you found my uber post. I put my name in the field, honest...

I'd accept your statement, but I think love goes farther than respect. But we're splitting hairs at that point. Let's start at respect and work our way toward love.

I have been attending mass at a local Catholic parish and have struck friendships with several other parishoners. We had this conversation a few weeks ago, and what I posted is what we all walked away with. So if *Catholics* can agree on this very moderate view, I think the world is in less danger than we fear. :)

I've been shocked at how moderate and liberal Catholic teaching can be, if interpreted that way. Yeah, there's always the Bill Donahue rant, but he's just another crank. I picked up a copy of the Catholic Catechism at the local Goodwill (support charity, get cheap used books, it's a win-win) and I'm finding little I can argue with. Even though I am a west coast pro-choice environmentalist feminist democratic bleeding heart liberal. The Post Vatican 2 catholic church is NOT what you think it is. At least, it's not what I thought it was.

Fundamentalism has defined Christianity for way too long in America. It's past time for the rest of us to speak up.

Everything you say is true, but I don't feel one bit sorry for you.

You brought this on yourselves. Whether all those Christians 'to the left of Pat Robertson' didn't want to rock they boat by speaking out against their Christianist 'brethren' or if they secretly enjoyed to political power that buddying up to the Religious Right brought them, the Christians of a 'welcoming gospel' failed to stop people within their own movement from perverting Christianity.

It's on your heads.

Talk all you want about how much you're not like them. You did nothing to stop them when you saw them turning Christianity into the 'anti-gay people' trying to foist their ideology and dogma onto society at large. Sins of omission are no different than sins of comission.

some time back the washington post, I believe, ran a story about a pastor of a church who tried to tone down the right wing political ambitions of his congregation, saying that politics and religion should be separate, that all should be cared for, and so on and so forth, much as this commentary says, and found himself dealing with an open revolt from people who felt that religion and Christ said "this is the way it ought to be so that's that."

He lost a huge chunk of his congregation as a result.

This is what concerns me--not that this commentary is wrong, but that so many in these churches seem to be willing to be led by loudmouth whackos like ms coulter, whose public utterances ought to be met with loud and constant condemnation from the majority of Christians but, for some reason, are not.

Why is that?

Dear Rev,
I like your piece but I think the problem is a bit more complicated.
This "person" ( if you can call her that) claims to represent the values voters, the GOP base, the heart and soul of the Christian Denomination and I don't see HOW, with the things she says and does can do that, unless you agree with her.
My point is that as long as we keep demonizing Imus, Gibson and other "liberal" people for saying stupid things and not the Coulters, OReillys, Limbaughs that make money out of people's misery, fears and values. Having a double standard on this matters doesn't help the Christian Population what to believe in because the belief system is so polarized. Until some moderate comes and drives the masses, we will continue to see more hatrate and screaming in our TV's.

"Most Christians believe in an authentic, inclusive and welcoming gospel in the thousands of communities where they worship."

I agree that most Christians are not as fanatical as those you mention and that the press does play a large part in the negative image of Christianity expressed by those mentioned .

However, the statement quoted above from Mr. Livingston is simply untrue. Most Christians DO NOT believe in an inclusive and welcoming gospel. Almost all Christrian denominations are struggling with Gay and Lesbian issues.

No Christian denomination, including the most liberal, have sanctiond rites of marriage. Some allow individual pastors or churches to write their own but none have them on the denominational level.

Most denominations will not ordain Gay or Lesbian pastors and those that do ordain them expect them to remain celibate.

If "most Christians" believed in an inclusive and welcoming gospel there would be no struggle with these issues. Gay men and Lesbians would be accepted and included as full and complete human beings. Presently, that is NOT happening.

Thank you.

Yay, Livingston! Let's hear more of this.

Dear Rev,
I like your piece but I think the problem is a bit more complicated.
This "person" ( if you can call her that) claims to represent the values voters, the GOP base, the heart and soul of the Christian Denomination and I don't see HOW, with the things she says and does can do that, unless you agree with her.
My point is that as long as we keep demonizing Imus, Gibson and other "liberal" people for saying stupid things and not the Coulters, OReillys, Limbaughs that make money out of people's misery, fears and values. Having a double standard on this matters doesn't help the Christian Population what to believe in because the belief system is so polarized. Until some moderate comes and drives the masses, we will continue to see more hatrate and screaming in our TV's.

Have you ever noticed that her mouth smiles, but her eyes don't? Even when she's "laughing"? She looks crazed...really creepy. Definitely not at peace with God.

If Rev. Livingston wants Ms. Coulter to stop speaking for Christians, then maybe Christians should stop speaking for Americans.

It's a shame: most good Christians I know are definitely the "judge not, lest ye be judged" type, but the Falwells/Robertsons/Coulters gained the public platform. Now a generation that's grown up being chided and scolded by those people doesn't want to hear it anymore.

Have some compassion for poor Ms. Coulter.
Her president and his administration have been exposed for the incompetent hypocrites they are, and Hillary is headed for the White House. She must be having a terrible time! Where is the Rapture when you need it? Should she tell us the Holocaust didn't really happen before or after the election? The poor dear........

P.S. I watched the show and then taped its repeat...because I almost couldn't believe what Coulter actually said publicly. The host generously gave her every opportunity to clarify and to restate her comments. She just dug her hole deeper. Nobody is taking her out of context. She said what she meant and made it clear, through expansion on the initial point, that she meant exactly what she (and Hitler) said. Those in denial about that which has been revealed are the same who refuse to believe the pedophile priests of Babylon are defiling your children even though you were probably molested and each of the 188 Roman Catholic dioceses (an admin term of the Roman Empire) has at least one convicted pedophile priest and many have dozens.

Jefferson is right, it is "the real Anti-Christ."

"Goldie:

Christians dont strap bombs to their backs and go into market and blow up everybody in the market. That honor is reserved for Muslims. How can muslims criticize anything? LOL"

LOL...what a great sense of humor you have. Muslims blow themselves in Marketplaces...Xtians simply drive their SUV's in squares and shoot at anything that moves, i.e when they are not busy dropping bombs in far-away lands.
ROFL so hard my stomach burst...

when people trivialize and generalize a discussion with their "erudite" observations, it reflects on the sanctity of the important points being raised. That being said, Its definitely refreshing to read Michael Livingstone's article denouncing the western Taliban, even if its too little too late. As long as there is a US vs Them mentality, people will gyrate towards the extremists, and this is prevalent all over the globe. Government should not be in a business of regulating what people think, else democracy would not be able to stop tyranny of the majority.

Rev. Livingston,

Do you think that you have hit on a hot topic here? We have averaged 1.7 posts per minute for the last 4.5 hours.

Good Job!

Cambellite/Anonymous - I'm glad you spelled out your Christian beliefs, because I think they're quite different from other moderate Christians. Some might not even consider you Christian.

You say, "Here's the Gospel, the good news: The world will change when you love God and love your neighbor. The rest is commentary."

Would you also accept my way of saying it? "Here's the good news: The world will change when we respect our neighbors. The rest is commentary."

If so and if other Christians and religious people can too, then maybe we can make some real progress.

+
The author of this article claims to be Christian but seems to have a very anti-Christian bias.

I agree with helping the poor and so does the author. I also belive in defending the family and freedom of religion like James Dobson does but the author has nothing good to say about Mr. Dobson who is a good Chrisitan American. The author seems very critical of those who actualy practice Chrisitianity in public instead of in a closet. He seems to think freedom of speech should apply to all but Christians.

He claims young people are as anti-Christian as he is but i do not believe that.

Bless you!

How do you know what most Christians think?

What percent of the total population have you talked to?

How do you know what most Christians think?

What percent of the total population have you talked to?

Then WHY are you even talking about her?

Why don't evangelical christians throw the haters, liars, financial criminals and others guilty of immoral sins out of their church?

Why do the evangelivcals embrace her and other haters like her such as Dobson?

Why do evangelicals cling to people like Ted Haggard who are obvious lying hypocrites?

Why do evangelicals embrace far right hate gossip that Obama is a muslim even though he's a church going christian? How about those who embraced and even funded the hypocritical political lies from the "swift boat christians"?

Why do evangelicals publish voter guides in breach of their tax exempt status?

It is high time to shun the evangelical AND OTHER RELIGIO-FASCIST hypocrites from politics as the CONSTITUTION REQUIRES!

Then WHY are you even talking about her?

Why don't evangelical christians throw the haters, liars, financial criminals and others guilty of immoral sins out of their church?

Why do the evangelivcals embrace her and other haters like her such as Dobson?

Why do evangelicals cling to people like Ted Haggard who are obvious lying hypocrites?

Why do evangelicals embrace far right hate gossip that Obama is a muslim even though he's a church going christian? How about those who embraced and even funded the hypocritical political lies from the "swift boat christians"?

Why do evangelicals publish voter guides in breach of their tax exempt status?

It is high time to shun the evangelical AND OTHER RELIGIO-FASCIST hypocrites from politics as the CONSTITUTION REQUIRES!

Lots of hand-wringing among more traditional Christians such as Rev. Livingston. Not much speaking out against Ann Coulter and others of their type except in forums like this. Why don't they go on TV and condemn Ann Coulter as clearly as she states her views?

Like Bonnie, one of the first posters, I do not recognize the Christianity I grew up with, the one where you were supposed to work on perfecting yourself and not so much on perfecting other people. The mainline church I attended (UCC) was hijacked by right-wingers, and I no longer attend church. I'm sure I'm not alone.

Someone wrote: "Stop blaming the media. It's not the media- it's the failure of moderate, rational Christian voices to step up and counter the extremists."
But all the moderate, rational Christian voices in the world can't counter the policy of a HUGE newspaper like the Washington Post, to "provoke" their readers. Not to inform. But to provoke.

And that's exactly what they do.

And that's exactly why all the Ann Coulters of the world get such exposure.

Did you even see THIS column on the main page? No! It's relegated to the sidelines.

Just ask Deborah Howell, the Post's ombudsman.

Then WHY are you even talking about her?

Why don't evangelical christians throw the haters, liars, financial criminals and others guilty of immoral sins out of their church?

Why do the evangelivcals embrace her and other haters like her such as Dobson?

Why do evangelicals cling to people like Ted Haggard who are obvious lying hypocrites?

Why do evangelicals embrace far right hate gossip that Obama is a muslim even though he's a church going christian? How about those who embraced and even funded the hypocritical political lies from the "swift boat christians"?

Why do evangelicals publish voter guides in breach of their tax exempt status?

It is high time to shun the evangelical AND OTHER RELIGIO-FASCIST hypocrites from politics as the CONSTITUTION REQUIRES!

I'll be glad to "stop looking at her" as soon as you stop plastering her face onto the front page of your website.
I've been wondering aloud for quite awhile why Coulter is given so much media coverage for such obvious nonsense. For thinking people(regardless of party) she is on the same level as "The National Inquirer", and yet the absurdities that she spews are treated as thoughtful opinion that should be thought about and analyzed.
And I'm sure she cackles and sneers all the way to the bank.

I do not want to watch Ann Coulter, but sometimes, like a car wreck, I see her on Fox News and can't turn away because I'm so stunned by what I'm seeing. She wears a cross on her necklace, but her disrespectful words of hate and intolerance are what an anti-christ would say. Rather than showing love and respect for her "neighbors" who disagree with her mean-spirited opinions, she dismisses THEM as hateful. "People keep trying to get me fired, they don't understand that I work for myself so I can't be fired." I heard even Bill OReily (who I also cannot stand to watch) caution her, "But you have to forgive your enemies! You're a Christian!" and she laughed and shook her head and replied, "Well...I'm still working on that part." Clearly indicating that she isn't. How hard can she be "working" on forgiveness if she titles her book, "If Democrats had any brains they'd be Republicans." Personally, I am praying that someone will please stop this woman. If she's a true Christian, why hasn't she heard the holy spirit telling her to stop giving Christianity a bad name! Jesus was the hardests on hypocrits...I've got to believe he'd know how to truly convert her into becoming a true believer...as it is she seems to be a plant.

Then WHY are you even talking about her?

Why don't evangelical christians throw the haters, liars, financial criminals and others guilty of immoral sins out of their church?

Why do the evangelivcals embrace her and other haters like her such as Dobson?

Why do evangelicals cling to people like Ted Haggard who are obvious lying hypoctires?

Why do evangelicals listen to far right hate gossip that Obama is a muslim even though he's a church going christian?

Why do evangelicals publish voter guides in breach of their tax exempt status?

It is high time to shun the evangelical AND OTHER RELIGIO-FASCIST hypocrites from politics as the CONSTITUTION REQUIRES!

Rev. Livingston,

“The National Council of Churches is made up of 35 diverse and differing Christian denominations -- from Methodist to Orthodox, from Lutheran to Quaker -- embracing 45 million American citizens.”

Please answer the following:

1. Is there an afterlife in either heaven or hell?
2. If yes, who if any among the following will go to heaven: Muslims, atheists, agnostics?

This is a test to see just how inclusive the NCC really is. I hope that you will answer these questions.

PS: There are two Ricks posting here. Hello Rick! It will be interesting to see if it sounds like we are arguing amongst ourself.

I do not want to watch Ann Coulter, but sometimes, like a car wreck, I see her on Fox News and can't turn away because I'm so stunned by what I'm seeing. She wears a cross on her necklace, but her disrespectful words of hate and intolerance are what an anti-christ would say. Rather than showing love and respect for her "neighbors" who disagree with her mean-spirited opinions, she dismisses THEM as hateful. "People keep trying to get me fired, they don't understand that I work for myself so I can't be fired." I heard even Bill OReily (who I also cannot stand to watch) caution her, "But you have to forgive your enemies! You're a Christian!" and she laughed and shook her head and replied, "Well...I'm still working on that part." Clearly indicating that she isn't. How hard can she be "working" on forgiveness if she titles her book, "If Democrats had any brains they'd be Republicans." Personally, I am praying that someone will please stop this woman. If she's a true Christian, why hasn't she heard the holy spirit telling her to stop giving Christianity a bad name!

Ann Coulter isn't "Christian," she is Roman Catholic no matter her present claim to the contrary. She is a failed woman and tool of the fascist plutocracy America's Founder, Thomas Jefferson, identified in 1819 as the "real Anti-Christ.

Prescott Bush claimed he was Episcopalian though in truth he, a front for Vatican-banker Rockefeller, was an initiated member of the Knights of Malta (who openly claim to run the Vatican) and served the Vatican as money conduit from their American Fifth Column to papal baron Fritz "The Rockefeller of Germany" Thyssen, author of "I Paid Hitler."

Countrymen, Patriots, We must learn to think historically as did the Whig Prophets who Founded Our Nation. They believed, and it is demonstrably true, that history unfolds as a conflict between Rome, and everyone else. As papal bulls claim Rome "owns the world" and all of us on it, it only makes sense when the path of their perfidy is easily traced:

Notice only the Roman Catholics on the Supreme Court voted to stop the Florida recount and make the homosexual, draft-dodging grandson of Prescott Bush president? Notice George H.W. Bush went on record while V.P. "unable to recall" his whereabouts upon hearing of John Kennedy's assassination by the Knight of Malta-led CIA (though two FBI memos put him on the phone to the FBI, on the subject, 75 minutes after the shots were fired, and in the CIA), six weeks after NSAM263 had ordered the military withdrawal from Rome's "latifundial" estate of Vietnam, in which the five percent Roman Catholics owned 95% of that country's wealth?

Coulter makes money serving the Anti-Christ's American Fifth Column: the same faction giving cover to Bush's "Reichstag Fire" of 9/11.

Due process must out. Someone get some rope. There's plenty to go around...their traitorous necks.

Mr. Livingston - Aren't Jews and Muslims going to hell unless they accept Jesus Christ? I'm a bit confused, because basically Ms. Coulter was just stating the obvious truth about Christianity. While Christians may respect the religions and sacred texts of others here on earth, Christian doctrine suggests that heaven will not include people who's beliefs don't include Jesus. So unless Jews become "perfected" and accept Jesus Christ as Ms. Coulter stated, they will not be accepted into heaven. Anything short of that is political correctness and not truth. Finally it's funny that its wrong for her to suggest that the United States would be better if it were all Christian but standard practice for a Christian to suggest that only Christians go to heaven.

In a word: No.

IF hell exists (and I have my doubts, but since there's no empirical evidence one way or the other...) it's populated by Jerry Falwell and his friends. People who spread hatred and fear, who failed to do the good things we're supposed to do, regardless of the name they give their religion.

Heaven, on the other hand, is populated by people who DID do the things they were supposed to do. As I stated in another thread, I believe Aung Sang Suu Kyi is slated for heaven.

God is not a Christian. Jesus was not a Christian. God is a name given to the personification of Love. Jesus was an extraordinary man who embodied that love on earth. He was murdered because his movement was threatening to the Roman and Jewish authority. His life and death brought God into the stream of history - God (Love) is with us in all things. The Resurrection story means that Love will conquor all, and even death can't stop it. It's poetry, not prose.

Catholic catechism teaches that God's "Truth" can be found anywhere you look, including other religions. And to the extent that those religions bring about the good things we all are working for (compassion, love, generosity, etc) then they are True. And adherents of other religions, who are trying to do bring those about, are "saved" too.

The Scapegoat theory and the salvation obsession are, I think, misinterpretations of what Jesus was really teaching. Christians, especially fundamentalists, put way way WAY too much emphasis on the here-after, and not enough on the here-and-now.

Jesus said, "If you love me, feed my sheep." He didn't say "If you love me, criticize and abuse anyone who doesn't live the way you do."

Here's the Gospel, the good news: The world will change when you love God and love your neighbor. The rest is commentary.

E Favorite asks:

"That's very commendable, I really mean that. Meanwhile, doe your moderate version of Christianity still involve Christ being a scapegoat for the supposed sins of people not yet born when he died (albeit briefly) for us? Do people who do not accept Christ's offer of salvation if only we believe in him, still suffer in hell for eternity according to moderate Christianity?"

It's not only young people that are looking skeptically at "Christianity". After being exposed to these radical right folks the last 10-15 years, I am proud to say that I am NOT a "Christian", and have no desire to be one. They have absolutely nothing that I want in my life or the life of my family.

We constantly hear complaints from the right, especially the Christian right, that Muslims do not condemn Muslim extremists. OK, aside from rare exceptions like Mr. Livingston, where are the condemnations of extremist Christians like Coulter from other Christians? I see nothing but silence. They obviously think they have a monopoly on being entitled to fanatical extremism. Islamo-fascism? No worse than Christo-fascism.

It's been mentioned that Coulter is just a pundit, may not actually be a Christian, and certainly isn't a preacher or an official representative of any church.

If moderate Christians actively disagree with her message, I feel sure they could band together to get media time to make their point. I suspect moderate Christians are a bit muddled about what exactly they would say if they had the desired media attention. If so, I don't blame them. Religions that rely on belief in supernatural claims are muddled, by definition, irrespective of whatever else of value they may have to offer.

Mr. Livingston - Aren't Jews and Muslims going to hell unless they accept Jesus Christ? I'm a bit confused, because basically Ms. Coulter was just stating the obvious truth about Christianity. While Christians may respect the religions and sacred texts of others here on earth, Christian doctrine suggests that heaven will not include people who's beliefs don't include Jesus. So unless Jews become "perfected" and accept Jesus Christ as Ms. Coulter stated, they will not be accepted into heaven. Anything short of that is political correctness and not truth. Finally it's funny that its wrong for her to suggest that the United States would be better if it were all Christian but standard practice for a Christian to suggest that only Christians go to heaven.

Nice spin but the fact is that the right wing agenda of militant, hateful theocracy dominates the "Christian" message which is neither democratic or grounded in principles of social or economic justice. Religion is seldom a force for good in spite of silly claims about it being the source of morality.

Mr. Livingston - Aren't Jews and Muslims going to hell unless they accept Jesus Christ? I'm a bit confused, because basically Ms. Coulter was just stating the obvious truth about Christianity. While Christians may respect the religions and sacred tests of others here on earth, Christian doctrine suggests that heaven will not include people who's beliefs don't include Jesus. So unless Jews become "perfected" and accept Jesus Christ as Ms. Coulter stated, they will not be accepted into heaven. Anything short of that is political correctness and not truth. Finally it's funny that its wrong for her to suggest that the United States would be better if it were all Christian but standard practice for a Christian to suggest that only Christians go to heaven.

What you say about inclusiveness of Christians might or might not be true (while I have not found Christians, world wide, to be any more or less xenophobic, as a statistical class, then an evolutionary baseline I have certainly not found devout Christians to be any more inclusive then any other self defined group, roughly equivalent, with regard to inclusiveness, to outlaw bikers). If Coulter et al do not represent the spiritual core of Modern US Christianity they have been allowed to usurp, almost unopposed, the voice of Modern US Christianity. Nor do they reflect a role all that different then 'historic' Christians have played.

More, the inability to move beyond a weak: 'that's not me' (i.e. Coulter et al) and forcefully, publicly repudiate their positions underscores powerfully how the rule of law will always be undermined by religious orthodoxy. The writer here has created, accepted for themselves, a set of beliefs they say are at variance with Coulter et al, yet both camps (and the hundred thousand other camps of Christianity) claim their legitimacy from the exact same divine provenance.

If you do not want Coulter to be the public face of Christianity, as Christians, you have to stand up and publicly repudiate her. No matter what you chose to believe the anemic statement above fails to do that. All the above did was assert an intra doctrinal squabble . . . something at which Christians have been historically, and criminally, adept.

In other words: I have rejected, publicly, repeatedly, Coulter et al obscene rantings. It is not my responsibility to distinguish how her religion differs from that of the writer of this piece. As both position themselves, publicly, as Christians, confusion as to what the Christian community will tolerate is unavoidable . . . and it is not 'my' responsibility to resolve that confusion. If you don't want to be mistaken for a Coulter don't act like her, don't talk like her, don't permit her to the public face of your religion!

Mr. Livingston - Aren't Jews and Muslims going to hell unless they accept Jesus Christ? I'm a bit confused, because basically Ms. Coulter was just stating the obvious truth about Christianity. While Christians may respect the religions and sacred tests of others here on earth, Christian doctrine suggests that heaven will not include people who's beliefs don't include Jesus. So unless Jews become "perfected" and accept Jesus Christ as Ms. Coulter stated, they will not be accepted into heaven. Anything short of that is political correctness and not truth. Finally it's funny that its wrong for her to suggest that the United States would be better if it were all Christian but standard practice for a Christian to suggest that only Christians go to heaven.

Reverend Livingston decries conservative criticism that his organization has a liberal bias, but then lists some issues which concern the NCC, including "...the living wage, racism, health care, justice for women, and an unjust war in Iraq". That is, his agenda IS the liberal agenda. He needs no accusers.

I am not sure that you are not the one that feels threatened. You do not give and real examples. Ann Coulter is not one. And Dobson speaks much good. Jesus being kind and gentle did not alter the fact that he cleary spoke that the way to the Lord was through him. Is it polite and politically correct "Not" to try to carry that to others because we do not want to disturb you, but want to "get along." You might want to take things a little more seriously and not just pick the bad points of the worst examples. It takes little courage to speak no truth. Also, you might consider if you live in a house with some glass walls yourself. Sincerely, Bill

Yup, all this Christian association with the Republican party has hurt Christianity big time. I don't think Jesus would have much good to say, judging by his words in the Beatitudes.

Mr. Livingston - Aren't Jews and Muslims going to hell unless they accept Jesus Christ? I'm a bit confused, because basically Ms. Coulter was just stating the obvious truth about Christianity. While Christians may respect the religions and sacred tests of others here on earth, Christian doctrine suggests that heaven will not include people who's beliefs don't include Jesus. So unless Jews become "perfected" and accept Jesus Christ as Ms. Coulter stated, they will not be accepted into heaven. Anything short of that is political correctness and not truth. Finally it's funny that its wrong for her to suggest that the United States would be better if it were all Christian but standard practice for a Christian to suggest that only Christians go to heaven.

Ann Coulter - The Devils wife.

Ann Coulter - The Devils wife.

Ann Coulter - The Devils wife.

My compliments on a well thought out piece based on real Judeo-Christian values. I embrace your comments whole heartedly.

The hate filled divisive, insulting and dangerous Coulterites are of the same fabric as Joseph Goebbels, Islamic fundementalist extremists and the KKK. They are our country's true internal enemies.

Thank you.

unfortunately, Reverend Livingston is thinking wishfully, and using Coulter for his own propaganda. I was raised Catholic, in the 60's, and was taught what Coulter is saying. As many posters have noted, that's not ultra right wing hijacked dogma, it's mainstream. Reverend is selling his kinder gentler stuff, but he's the one trying to fashion a watered down dogma that liberal folks will buy (no judgment on liberals in that statement, see later). I recall an Opus Dei priest who recently got some press saying the Catholic Church would be better off if all those who didn't accept the church's teaching on birth control, etc. would just leave. that's the point. The NCC folks would be excommunicated by the Vatican. They shouldn't pretend otherwise, and just admit they think they have a better path.

Before anyone mistakes where I am coming from, my point is that even though Coulter does somehow manage to overstate even rigid dogma, she does represent it. Our churches themselves can't escape the "we have the truth - you don't" even internally.

The history of many churches is the watering down of dogma to hang on to folks who can't swallow it. Agnostics, me among them, would say that's a futile effort, because you simply increase the contradictions that cause thinking folks to leave in the first place (if you preach an inspired truth, it's not subject to revision - there are Catholics who still can't get over the 2nd Vatican Council)(I have more respect for conservatives on that logical basis alone). We are witnessing churches suffering from their inherent weakness. They all claim exclusive truth, whether they soft pedal it or not. I don't begrudge anyone their faith. I cannot prove the non-existence of anything. I simply wish the faithful would show the humility or self doubt that should accompany the absurdity of Jews, Muslims and Christians all agreeing that if a Jew, a Muslim, and a Catholic are walking down the street, only two out of three are deluded fools.

Ted, while agreeing very much with most of your comments, the fact is, that saying anything
about Israel or the American neocons brings instant scream of anti-semitism.
And it will increase, in this controlled media, exponentially, as more and more Americans try to say they don't support our blind support of Israel.
It'll be ugly, be heard.
I'm not fond of Israel's contant bombings and incursions and threats in the name of, and using America. I'd like to feel decent again.

Ted, while agreeing very much with most of your comments, the fact is, that saying anything
about Israel or the American neocons brings instant scream of anti-semitism.
And it will increase, in this controlled media, exponentially, as more and more Americans try to say they don't support our blind support of Israel.
It'll be ugly, be heard.
I'm not fond of Israel's contant bombings and incursions and threats in the name of, and using America. I'd like to feel decent again.

"Most Christians believe in an authentic, inclusive and welcoming gospel in the thousands of communities where they worship."

That's because most Christians pay very little attention to the Bible, believe very little Church doctrine, and go to church mainly as a social event.

"One of its chief cheerleaders is Ann Coulter. She has dismissed most of the Bible and the words of Jesus defending the poor, the widow, the prisoner—the least among us—and spewed her venom that