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I am contemplating a 10,000 word disseration focusing on 'informal interfaith space' and would like to explore this period in history to see how it could inform and relate to present day interfaith relationships. This is the first positive piece of writing I have come across. Thank you! Any hints for reading?

stnlp mysuf nzbqed nirb vwusibh odamktzxn ebgzvmkio

stnlp mysuf nzbqed nirb vwusibh odamktzxn ebgzvmkio

stnlp mysuf nzbqed nirb vwusibh odamktzxn ebgzvmkio

Rick,Gerry,Steve Holgate & many others with Reason, sensible questions and comments:

I liked your note Gerry its reason vs superstition and not Islam Vs Christianity or others. For you i advise to see below comments of mine.
Rick, you asked about Hell and Havens and told about population comparison. For you my dear, we are only responsible for our own actions. At the end good deeds and bad deeds were never rewarded equally and never will be(though in appearance you find injustice), logic tells! My believe tells i have the responsibility to seek KNOWLEDGE of world as well to reach the truth, other wise i will left ingorant and end up in hell.
Steve Holgate, dear you talk about lack of scientific proof, I suggest you to also read my below comments carefully!!!

Opinions are made upon understanding and certain knowledge, which differ from person to person. For some God is a myth, for some they believe or want to believe according to their religion and for some He is as real as His creation. Below are few examples in the favor of their belief:

For Muslims Big Bang Theory is not something new, it is more than 1400 years old, revealed in their Holy Book along with more than 1000 other scientific facts which are happened to be established recently in couple of centuries. And the answers of so many confusing questions which keep us going astray throughout our lives. And as a fact Muslims know they were revealed before discovered and further on top of it that not a single verse of their holy book is in conflict with any logical/scientific approach (infect every time scientific discoveries providing proof in favor of the last revelations), make them more focused/practicing/fundamentalist or what ever others think about them and made it very easy for them to reach to the conclusion...simply apply the scientific rule of Probability....What if it is 100% correct...IF YOU UNDERSTAND PORBABILITY RULE THEN ITS NOT A JOKE !!), very few examples out of All from the Holy book as proof,

I have created all the creatures from earth and all the living beings are made out of water (Chapter 21) (living being which are meant to die/perish)
Don’t you see the earth and sky was together and I separated them, still you don’t believe
(Chapter 21)
I have created sky upon earth for your protection and there is sign for you
(Chapter 21)
All the stars, moon and sun are floating in their skies
(Chapter 21)
All the skies are holding with out pillars and there is sign for you
(Chapter 21)

For Muslims God means (The One, Ultimate Creator, Who is Uncreated and above time always present before and after time and beyond our limited level of comprehension)

Below is the TOUCH STONE of God that He revealed in Holy Book, when the question about God was raised:
1- He is One and Only
2-the Eternal, Absolute;
, the eternally Besought of all! on Whom all depend.
3-He begets not, nor is He begotten.
4-And there is none comparable unto Him.
And none is like Him.

Please comments are not necessary WITHOUT VARIFICATION/RESEARCH of the original text and authentic translations by ONLY Muslim scholars to avoid any twisting and deceptive techniques IN GENERAL PRACTICE!!

Jesus (Isa) A.S. in Islam, and his Second Coming
by Mufti A.H. Elias
I. Jesus (A.S.) In Islam
Muslims do believe that Isa (A.S.) was sent down as a Prophet of Allah (God), but he (Jesus) is not God or Lord, nor the son of God. Muslims do not believe that Isa (A.S.), also known as Jesus by Christians and others, is dead or was ever crucified. We believe that he was raised to heaven and is there, and will descend at the appointed time, end all wars, and bring peace to the world. Like Jesus (A.S.), Muhammad (Peace be upon him) is also a Prophet and Messenger. Muhammed (P.B.U.H.) is the last Prophet, though, and there is none after him. Hence, Islam is the last religion, complete, with the Holy Qur'an as the unchanged and perfect word of God for over 1400 years, as God promised to preserve it till the last day for all of humankind, unlike sacred texts of other religions which have mulitple versions and are "revised" periodically. God, or Allah in Arabic, is Divine and Supreme Being and Creator.
What the Holy Qur'an says about Jesus:
They slew him not, nor did they crucify him but it was made dubious to them.
(Holy Qur'an, Surah Nisaa, Verse 157)
Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) himself told of the coming of Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him). In the Bible, Jesus (A.S.) says,
If you love me, Keep my commandments. And I will pray to the Father and He shall give you another comforter that he may abide with you forever.
(Bible, John 14-15/16)

But when the comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the spirit of Truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me, and he also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
(Bible, John 15-26/27)

I have yet many things to say unto you, but you cannot bear them now. How be it when he, the spirit of Truth will come, he will guide you into all truth, for he shall speak not of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear, that he shall speak, and he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me, for he shall receive of mine, and he shall show it unto you.
(Bible, John 16-12/14)
Ulema (learned scholars in Islam) have said that the person who is described by Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) to come after him - in the above verse - does not comply with any other person but Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him).
In this case, the "comforter" he mentions is none other than Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) and his laws and way of life (Shariah) and Book (Holy Qur'an) are those that Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) asks his followers to abide by.
The "person" whom Jesus (A.S.) prophecised will come after him, is called Pargaleeta in the Bible . This word was deleted by interpreters and translators and changed at times to "Spirit of Truth" and at other times, to "comforter" and sometimes "Holy Spirit." The original Greek and its meaning is "one whom people praise exceedingly." The sense of the word, then, is applicable to the word Muhammad in Arabic, since Muhammad means "the praised one."
Jesus (A.S.) also says in the Bible,
... and a little while and you shall not see me; and again a little while, you shall see me because I go to the Father.
(Bible, John 16:16)
... and the Holy Qur'an says,
And surely they slew him not. But Allah (God) raised him unto Himself.
(Holy Qur'an, Surah Nisaa, Verse 157-158)
As such, Muslims believe that Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) was raised to heaven. According to Hadith, he is on the second heaven. Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam=Peace be upon him) mentioned, "During the Meraj (Ascension), I met Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) on the second heaven. I found him of medium stature, reddish white. His body was so clean and clear, that it appeared as though he had just performed ghusal (ablution, cleansing of the entire body) and come." In another Hadith, Rasulullah (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) mentioned to the Jews that, " Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) is not dead, he will most surely return to you before Qiyamat (the Day of Judgement)."
May Allah Guide all people to the Truth. Aameen

Again Janet:

Muslims are well aware of the fact that they might be deceiving themselves about their admiration of the Quran (ie, Word of God) and about their esteeming of Muhammad (ie, the utterer of God's Word). If Muhammad uttered God's words, then how can he be not a virtuous and noble man? Your answer is that Muslims somehow beleive that Muhammad was noble even though it is possible that he made up the Quran, which then equals Muslim's belief in the possible unGoliness of Muhammad despite the fact that the good Word of God stil managed to find its way out of his mouth. You would say yes, it all depends on if you blindly accept the Quran as being written by God or by a filthy man, to which the Muslim would say the Quran's greatness is self evident, and God would logically ot allow a heathen to utter it, thus Muhammad is good. Yes, that's an assumption, but no honest knowledgeable muslim has ever seeen anyone prove the Quran unmagnificent. Again, muslims beleive based on testing and playing devil's advocate, at least at some point in their lives. The Quran actually tells them to think for themselves and warns against blind following. And again, the numbers of violent muslims, or of truly ignorant ones, is quite quite small.

Another point worth mentining is that, whether in South America or Christian Europe or the Islamic world, or also in Hindu India I'm told, you find the nicest most benevolent inhabitants in the most rural out-of-city places. Universally, religion is always best preserved in terms of morality and ethics, in the countryside. The best most fervent Christians in America are to be found in poor black neighborhoods, amidst all the crime and dirt. So knowledge of a religion at a relatively high level can be held even in the oral teachings of supposedly less-formally educated country dwellers.

To DOA:
"The Quran is obviously a sacred book of the most grand nature, according to Muslims,". If someone grows up in a society where everyone believes the above, it is the rare few indviduals who will investigate for themselves whether the Quran is of such a grand nature.

"You're making it sound like the only way for the world's Muslims to live by the Quran and therefore be "Islamic" is for them to treat it as a secret code that whose contents can only be dispensed with the imams as if they were Rosetta stones." I don't have numbers as to how many Muslims have actually read the entire Quran in their native tongue. But I do know that many, many Muslim children memorize the Quran in its original language without having the slightest idea what they are saying.

Yes, I do realize that there have been hundreds, if not thousands of commentaries on the Quran, and that whatever any particular imam teaches is his own particular synthesis of all those commentaries.

"....to see the full force of this heritage of virtue, family values, living honestly, basic regard for fellow humanity, that totally embalms the Muslim’s mind,". Also "there is no place that has as much humor, good naturedness, lack of personal indemnity, generosity, lack of greed, smiling, love for neighbor, children etc than the Muslim world." I don't doubt your experience, and I don't doubt that a lot of the positive qualities that you experienced do exist. Although I do think you have come away with a romanticized view. Maybe you have had particularly positive experiences, and maybe, for who knows what reason, you feel a special affinity for those parts of the world. Often people from one culture feel a special affinity for another culture for reasons they themselves are not totally sure of.

"Most criticism of the Muslim world by the likes of Irshaad Manji, Ali Hursi etc are by people who do not really believe in God, therefore, their understanding of the Quran is going to be different". Maybe their understanding of the Quran is different because one, they have actually read it, and two, have freed their eyes and mind from 1400 years of blind belief. What you are saying is that unless you are a believer, you won't understand what is in the Quran. So you have to believe in the Quran first, in order to truly understand it. That is putting the cart before the horse, in my estimation.

"most Muslims know that the Quran is not violent". They might not want to think it is violent, but if they bothered to look at it with a greater degree of detachment, they might see that what they "know" just ain't so.

"the vast majority of Muslims BELIEVE to the core that the Quran is a very very good book". Yes, of course, they believe that, because very few of them have questioned for themselves whether that is true.

"I mean all Muslims except a very few understand that God meant the Quran to be a good book and for it to be a guide for rightful conduct according to what are universally accepted decent human behavior and regard for others." Fortunately, all human beings have qualities of innate kindness and generosity, as well as qualities of selfishness and cruelty. So I am sure the majority of Muslims over the last 1400 years and spread over huge landmasses have often picked out those parts of the Quran that have allowed them to live in harmony with their neighbors. Unfortunately, they have also picked out parts of the Quran and Hadith, that have given sanction to behavior that is not harmonious, and this is not just a recent phenomenon due to Western exploitation.

"The idea that Muslims think they are supposed to do all these bad things by way of the Quran is totally illogical, untrue, and condescending". No, of course, they don't think they are doing bad things. But human beings in every part of the world always have managed to justify their bad behavior. Americans do it, Europeans do it, why shouldn't Muslims do it? It is called self-deception.

"This idea is brainwashing from the majority media who trumpets the ills of an extremely small majority of Islamic guides and followers". The problem is that it is not just "an extremely small majority(I think you meant to say "minority"). Bin Laden is a hero to too many Muslims. I don't have all the polls in front of me, but a great many Muslims, condone the terror that he and copycats like him have inflicted. Where is the uproar in the Muslim world for all the innocent Muslims killed by suicide bombers and militias in Iraq?

"Islam's overall rich variety of assessment of life's problems." I realize that over the last 1400 years, among so many different cultures and peoples, that Islam is not a monolith, and there has been, and continues to be, a rich variety of approaches. Yet, certain themes that make Islam distinctly what it is,pop up over and over again, and I don't think extremist Muslims are as unknowledgeable as you believe. In fact, as I interpret the biography of Muhammed, your so-called "extremist Muslims" are simply following in Muhammed's footsteps. I suggest you read a biography of Muhammed, with an open mind, and without the overlay of belief that this is a prophet of God, and then honestly ask yourself, whether he was a virtuous and noble man.

Dear Janet

You are quite uneducated and have no idea what you are talking about. Just because it appears that I'm candy wrapping the Quran doesn't mean I'm not speaking objectively. The Quran is obviously a sacred book of the most grand nature, according to Muslims, so the candy has no relevance. You're making it sound like the only way for the world's Muslims to live by the Quran and therefore be "Islamic" is for them to treat it as a secret code that whose contents can only be dispensed with the imams as if they were Rosetta stones. This is very untrue, and does not even hold up for other religions. Do you think that a preacher's hammering out of Biblical content is the only source of Christianity for Christians?

The fact that most Muslims know about as much of the Quran as do Christians the Bible, which is an aspect worthy of a scholarly comparative study, has nothing to do with the basic stance taken by the vast majority of Muslims on the INTENT of God's Quran. Important to realize is that the Quran has already been interpreted based upon what is called Quranic commentary by hundreds if not thousands of Muslims since day one, the first commentary being that of the Prophet who reportedly said about 40,000 sayings (recorded to varying degrees of certainty) all concerning interpreting the Quran and what does it mean for this particular problem. The working on of Hadith into hundreds if not thousands of treatises, arguments, summaries, philosophical works, and thousands of poems and even songs into the ordinary knowledge base of all the imams and other guides for hundreds of years has resulted in the Muslim world at large living according to
a massive social integration of the Quran to this day. Whatever society has been able to take out of the Quran is represented in the average Muslim’s daily life who grows up according to the sum total of whatever their parents, relatives, neighbors, teachers, schools, mosques, imams etc taught them. It takes a brief trip through any Muslim country, underneath the hassle of the interface with the west (tourist areas, foreign policy) to see the full force of this heritage of virtue, family values, living honestly, basic regard for fellow humanity, that totally embalms the Muslim’s mind, with exceptions, to a degree that makes Southern hospitality look cold, ruthless and aloof, quite literally. I've traveled quite a bit, and there is no place that has as much humor, good naturedness, lack of personal indemnity, generosity, lack of greed, smiling, love for neighbor, children etc than the Muslim world. What you’re seeing in your TV and studies is missing the boat for a few knotholes. Most criticism of the Muslim world by the likes of Irshaad Manji, Ali Hursi etc are by people who do not really believe in God, therefore, their understanding of the Quran is going to be different although I'm not saying they can't be intelligent in their criticisms.

When I spoke that most Muslims know that the Quran is not violent, that means that in reality, that the vast majority of Muslims BELIEVE to the core that the Quran is a very very good book with many dictates that are obviously good from any angle and with many others that need symbolic interpretation, and that any attempt to come away with an interpretation to do bad or mean spirited tings toward others on the basis of the Quran would have to be a result of misinterpretation of what the INTENT of the Quran was. I mean all Muslims except a very few understand that God meant the Quran to be a good book and for it to be a guide for rightful conduct according to what are universally accepted decent human behavior and regard for others.

And that goes for the majority of imams or other types of Muslim guides (philosophers, saints, Sufis, sheikhs or simply parents, etc., who are not officially imams. The vast majority of all Muslims guides including Imams also assume that the Quran is to be interpreted according to what makes the most for friendliness, peace, mutual respect, religious privacy, etc, and all the virtues anybody can think of. The idea that Muslims think they are supposed to do all these bad things by way of the Quran is totally illogical, untrue, and condescending. This idea is brainwashing from the majority media who trumpets the ills of an extremely small majority of Islamic guides and followers, almost all of whom live in acutely oppressed places. It is no different from any Christian, except for the most extreme variety, who believes that the Bible is supposed to be good and make to us do good things, and that the Bible cannot logically be a source of evil or of human despair or suffering.

It may be ironic that many of the extremist Muslims who take up a vigorous study of Islam also accumulate a vigorous narrow mindedness that is politically or personally motivated that ends up making them less knowledgeable on the whole about Islam's overall rich variety of assessment of life's problems.

To DOA,

There is so much of what you say that is a lot of hot air and wishful thinking on your part, rather than any semblance of reality. I don't have the time right now to take on your numerous misrepresentations, so I will just take on one of them. You said: "Most Muslims understand that those who say the Quran calls for callousness and killing and rigidity, whether they be extremists or Islam-haters, are ignorant and incorrect." The fact is that most Muslims have no idea as to what is actually in the Koran. They might have memorized the Koran, but that would be the equivalent of a present day American memorizing the Bible in Latin. They would have no idea what any of the words meant, since the Koran is in ancient Arabic, which is difficult even for modern Arabic speakers to understand, nevermind the millions of non-Arabic speaking Muslims. So most Muslims need to depend on their imams etc, to tell them what is in the Koran. You can call people who point out exactly what is in the Koran "Islam-haters", and link them in the same sentence with Islamic extremists. But it is people who refuse to look away from what is actually in the Koran, as opposed to people like you who want to wrap the Koran in a bunch of cotton candy, who are closer to the truth of what Islam has always taught.

To Mary Cunningham,

Thanks for citing your sources. I will check this out. If true, the number of both female and boy sexual slaves, gives the lie to the picture of Islamic Spain as some sort of ideal place. Perhaps in Islamic Spain followers of different relgions had more communication with one another, and there was less harassment of non-Muslims than at other times, and maybe a few non-Muslims rose to positions of prominence, but for the ordinary person life was probably brutal.
Here is a review and criticism of Michale Wolfe's documentary:
http://www.tnr.com/blog/openuniversity

Anon - You are mixing up lust for power and politics with true religion.

Com'on this is basic stuff....!

Seattle:

"Nazi Germany - Not pretty, and understandably not something any group (Christian, athiest, or Socialist) wants to claim."

Nazi Germany's totalitarian ideology and antisemitism has been claimed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d51poygEXYU

Modern Islamo Nazism

"This news report from Bayerischer Rundfunk explains in detail the cooperation between the Nazis and the Muslim Arab leaders during WW2.

It goes on to explain how high ranking heads of the SS fled to the Arab world and carried on their activities under the protection of leaders such as President Nasser and how modern Islam has adopted a Nazi style ideology of hate and conspiracy against the Jews."

I'm also curious why Moderate sees history departments as "anti-western"?

As a fairly recent graduate of college history department, and even more recent graduate of a master's level public affairs program....I don't see it.

Sorry, but I was taught that Western Civ had a major role in world events both in the Middle Ages thru today. We were taught that the Catholic Church "saved" (to borrow the term from a best-selling book) classical learning; that the Church had a positive role in Europe's rise to the Renaissance; and that in general white, Anglo men were not bad guys.

It's just that we were taught that others had a role in history, as well. In Spain's case that includes the Muslim Moors.

Moderate, Janet, Mary, and DOA -

I've been following (and enjoying) your posts, but am out here on the West Coast so am just now responding.

No hate-mongering from me, but I do quibble with Moderate and Mary's picture of the Roman Inquisition.

During that time in European history the line between the Church and secular authority was blurred, and makes Mary's assertion that the Inquisition had no secular authority extremely misleading. In fact, the Inquisition was seen as a representative body from Rome (representing the Pope) and no (smart) local authority was going to dispute them (no messin' with the Pope!).

Nazi Germany - Not pretty, and understandably not something any group (Christian, athiest, or Socialist) wants to claim. There are examples of Nazi leaders using Christian ideology to appeal to a faithful constituency. I'm not claiming Nazi's were Christian...just that they weren't above portraying themselves as such for propaganda.

Martin Borman's quote (as cited by Moderate) was an example of this. Nazis were fighting the Russian Socialists at the time. Therefore you could not be Christian and Socialist at the same time. Borman was arguing for Christianity.

Janet - It was common for Islamic leaders (the Emir) to have harems. This is not what I would advocate for myself and others... but it doesn't mean that the Spanish Moors weren't advanced and effective leaders.

Afterall, we know the Catholic Church has some distasteful (at times unethical) practices, but it doesn't take away from the fact that they have built an extremely successful Church that is an inspiration and help to many, many people.

I'm an agnostic and, generally, am for as little religion as possible in the public sphere. Muslim Spain is an excellent example of how this works well for everyone.

By being tolerant Muslims (and remember that the brand of Islam practiced then is different than the extremist kind seen in fundamental Islamic states today)the Moorish rulers built a society that upheld knowledge and learning above religious priorities.

Thoughts?

"Anonymous, explain why, i dont have time to watch a biased video,"

DOA:

In this video -its not just hearing a man say "when we beat ourselves with chains and damage our bodies..." its the look on his face as he says it and then watching as he and his fellow Muslims flagellate themselves. We have words for that in the west.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sg0zracvXjA

Then there is the repeated desire for death, spoken on camera again and again. Its not wise to tell people that Islam is a religion of peace without first correcting this overwhelming problem within your ranks.

It is hard to convince with words when our eyes tell us another story. One viewing and the shallow words of your posts lift off the screen and float away. Your words need truth to anchor them.

Poor Amanpour. She tried to do a puff piece on Muslim terrorism and mistakenly told so much more. Its worth watching and other readers who wander over =PLEASE TAKE A LOOK".

DescendentofAndalusia:

Not sure where to go next on this forum.

Two goals:

First to address some of the most egregious misapprehensions. Some of these are presented by trolls and are disingenuous. Others are from sincere people who have been taught the modern anti Western version of "history" at school.

Second to actually discuss the issues with people who really want to think things over.

I will keep an eye out for your call-sign.

DescendentofAndalusia:

Not sure where to go next on this forum.

Two goals:

First to address some of the most egregious misapprehensions. Some of these are presented by trolls and are disingenuous. Others are from sincere people who have been taught the modern anti Western version of "history" at school.

Second to actually discuss the issues with people who really want to think things over.

I will keep an eye out for your call-sign.

Anonymous, explain why, i dont have time to watch a biased video, Id rather listen to you explain.

I tell you waht yousee on TV today is designed to decieve, it is not honest reporting-- otherwise you wuld have heard more from the likes of me by now. That fragment of islam that wants to rant and rave is a small part of the overall population, but the megephone is being jammed into their mouths and boy do they like it. Why not ask the rest of the muslims what their opinion is of islam's supposed violence and death cultism.

The fact is that knowledgeable Muslims and non-muslims know that Islam did not spread by the sword as much as it did by sheer attractiveness for its intellectual calling and clarity of life's agelong questions. You can't force your way into being the world's most populous religion, force does not explain that. Where are the hololausts, pograms, large-scale massacres, genocidal campaigns in the Islamic example that are in any scale comparable to the West's heritage?

Other nameless religiouns had a much greater empahasis on the use of coersion and force in spreading their faith. This is a fact. The Muslims could not have invented coffee, the university system of education, ice cream, baths, the 100s of types of Islamic music and dance forms, Persian poetry, carpet designs sought after by the world, architecture attracting tourists at all times, etc. by being violent. It does not make sense. Educate yourself in the name of honesty, not in the name of prejudice and pre-hatred.

"Shiites, Sunnis, Msulim's concept of death is not fatalistic or suicidal or desireable as is commonly percived by Hollywood-starred Americans."

DOA: you are full of Shi'ite:

God's Warriors - Muslim 1-11

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh7WkyaeRBg&mode=related&search=

Anybody else interested in continuing?

The Moderate --- what discussion did you go to?

Shiites, Sunnis, Msulim's concept of death is not fatalistic or suicidal or desireable as is commonly percived by Hollywood-starred Americans.

If death was so sought after, how come Muslims such a large demographic entity in the world?

Patrick Henry is said to have said, "Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death"

Death as a symbolic overture to the esteemed personal quest to kill the bad parts of one's soul in favor of allowing the good part to dominate one's behavior, as in a battle against the Devil, is a very common theme in all religions, Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism. But in societies that are more secular, where the Afterlife seems like a non-existant reality, death properly takes on the more sinister end of it all that becomes uncomfprtable to think about.

Unfortunately, this lack of understanding about the concept of death leads to a whole lot of death by bombing, and it's always us doing it.

As for extremists panderings to troubled youths promised tintilating post-suicidal rewards, that's because there's no place like the beseiged Muslim world to find troubled youths. Just like the Kimikazes who happened to be losing quite badly at the time and were trying to save a civilization built out of wooden homes being subject to constant American napalm (yes in WWII) fire-bombings. A study came out in the past two years detailing how 50% or so of all suicide killings (not domenstic disputes) were done by athiests. If you examine the Palestinians, their bombings seem to be done predominantly by athiests who can't absorb some recent family tragedy at the hands of the IDF. Forget about the suicide videos, those are a political machination. Money is offered in advance.

The whoole religious concept of Shiites is severely affected by a single incident in which a band of wealthy and powerful muslims killed an entire party of early Shiites, including an actual grandson of the Prophet of Islam.

DOA:

"a true Muslim knows Islam is too good to in any way justify bahavior that is universally understood as bad"

I chose to watch CNN last night -not PBS. Please explain the Shi'ite's repeatedly declaring their devotion to and desire for death?

Dear DescendentofAndalusia, and Mary Cunningham:

"I'm not trying to paint a hunky dory picture of the Christian Middle Ages, what I'm trying to do is counter the predominantly negative and pejorative stance taken by almost everyone in modern times against the supposed "dark" Middle Ages."

I have been enjoying your well thought out posts. The middle ages were actually a time of great technological, philosophical, and scientific progress, and this was fostered by none other than the Roman Catholic Church.

Mary,

"My source for my first contention is Andrew Wheatcroft: "Infidels: the Conflict between Christendom and Islam" (London, 2003), for the Inquisition my source is Edward Norman: "The Roman Catholic Church" (London, 2005)."

Thanks for the cites. I will look into these. I have read references to the proper record keeping of the Inquisition and the relatively low body count. I guess if you are one of the ones who were burned at the stake the scale would make no difference to you, but from the outside, the attempted obliteration of whole segments of the population during the Holocaust really is different, and more horrifying.

The Atheist trolls here hate to have to deal with the sins of their group in the Twentieth Century.

Compared to perfection religion is found wanting, but compared to the practice of Atheist societies, religion looks much better.

Also, the common practice by the trolls, including Susan Jacoby, is to construct evil and threatening straw men out of the Evil "Christian Right", "Conservative Christians", and "Religious Right", and ascribe all manner of shortcomings and sins to them. This has worked for the paranoia sales force, like Susan Jacoby and the other trolls.

Another book I found interesting is:

“How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization” bu Thomas E Woods, Jr. Ph.D., Regnery Publishing, Inc., 2005.

It discusses the positive role of the Catholic Church, and the Society of Jesus in the middle ages and Renaissance and counter reformation including:

How the monks preserved some of the classical corpus, and thus our historical roots, and even literacy itself.

How the modern university was founded and organized at the great cathedral shcools.

The role of the church in the foundation of international law, economics, and the sciences as we now have them.

Very interesting read.

All the best to both of you,

The Moderate

Janet,

That Islamic sultans and sovereigns kept vast harems during the period of high Islamic civilization is fairly common knowledge. That Islamic states were based upon slavery and that Arabs were influential in the African slave trade is also not in dispute.

My source for my first contention is Andrew Wheatcroft: "Infidels: the Conflict between Christendom and Islam" (London, 2003), for the Inquisition my source is Edward Norman: "The Roman Catholic Church" (London, 2005).

Spain was on the 'front line' of this Christian-Islamic conflict and Christianity ultimately prevailed, as it did in Sicily and Malta. Islam remained dominant in the Holy Land and throughout Northern Africa. Later the Ottoman Turks would overrun Byzantium (1452?) and, waging war, would later take the crescent into the very heart of central Europe: finally to be turned back at the gates of Vienna by Jan Sobieski. The Balkans and Greece were under Islamic rule for centuries.

History simply does not confirm the "peaceful Islam" theory. It would be nice to believe it but it is not true.

(Hope you access this as we are onto another guest voice.)

Peacetroll

Any attempt on your part to distinguish between Zionism and Judaeism? Do you not recognize the analogy below? You tear too hard at the Jews.

Each religion has its corresponding spectrum

1 Extremist Islam
2 Literalistic Islam
3 Mainstream/Orthodox Islam
4 Secular "Athiest" Islam

1 Extremist Christianity (born-again-Christians sector of Evanglism)
2 Literalistic (Fundamentalist) Christianity (reclusive)
3 Mainstream CHristianity (Catholic, other Protestant, Orthodox, Copts)
4 Secular "Athiest" (Humanists--left over from Christianity)

1 Orthodox messianic jews (goyem haters)
2 Orthodox mainstream traditional relgious Jews (Reformists too)
3 Secular "Athiest" Jews by ethnic only

Each community has its religious-crazies, I would argue the percentage of crazies in Islam is actually the lowest. The west has way overestimated the number of Muslim crazies.

I have to say that the idea that the more religious a muslim is, the more fanatical he is is really stupid. Ask any Muslim and you’ll get the following discernment from about 95% of the respondents: a true Muslim knows Islam is too good to in any way justify bahavior that is universally understood as bad, a bad Muslim is one who tires to use a truncated Islam to justify bad behavior. Most Muslims are aware of the fact that extremist Muslims don’t really follow true Islam. Most Muslims understand that those who say the Quran calls for callousness and killing and rigidity, whether they be extremists or Islam-haters, are ignorant and incorrect.

To Janet
----But I seem to remember a lot of constant wars going on in those times, and your reading of the Christian Middle Ages appears overly idealistic to me.

I'm not trying to paint a hunky dory picture of the Christian Middle Ages, what I'm trying to do is counter the predominantly negative and pejorative stance taken by almost everyone in modern times against the supposed "dark" Middle Ages. The Dark Ages is popularly and mostly correctly known as such, that is, the period following the Roman fall when Christianity did not yet have a grip in present day Europe and there was a literal smorgasbord of religions running around, Christianism, Mithraism, Druidism, Zoroastrianism, old Egyptian cults, as well as Judaism. For Christianity's first 600 years, Constantinople and some scattered fortressed Christian knight castles were the only bastions in a landscape of constant flux of power. There was no real Christian Civilization elsewhere, it had to be built up from scratch, unlike the Muslims who inherited economically thriving large population centers right off the bat. The transfer of Islamicised knowledge, which they were in the habit of accumulating and expounding according to dictates from the Quran, once during the first several centuries of Spanish rule and then again when Toledo was taken back from the Muslims, is what allowed the non-Byzantium ( I don’t know about the Orthodoxy’s case) Christian civilization to finally find its own with the impact of Master Eikhart, Thomas Aquinas, and Memanoides and also Christian mystics whom I can't name. This latter period is what is known as the Christian (European) Middle Ages and is definitely not dark.

The Renaissance was a disaster in my overall view in its severe attack against its own religious heritage, even to the extent that any Greek or Muslim or perhaps Jewish influence on Christian Europe had to be discarded in favor of the new fad of translating all the Classical Greek texts showcasing the decline of Greek civilization which had been explicitly ignored by the Muslims and Christians previously. (Middle Aged Christian thought was based on the Ancient Greek Classics, before and up to Aristotle basically).

The Renaissance did not produce the intricate Gothic and Romanesque cathedrals, by design or by want. The flowing of
ideas and philosophy and rationalism of the Renaissance was all done in the name of the new Godless-enlightened society which could no longer make sense of the combination of the Divine nexus with the seemingly solid created earth, because it had discarded the tools wrought within the Christian cosmological paradigm making that understanding possible. The R. mistook solid earth as being more real than Divine levels of reality, and then wondered incorrectly why they had been so stupid all along.

Certainly if deaths are some indication of the "level of advancement" of any society, then one could probably make the case that many many more deaths occurred with the onset of the enlightenment and ensuing Renaissance than had occurred previously, both inside and outside Christendom. Similarly, to blame Islam's apparent atrocities is to review its entire history through the lenses of Islam's recent past. I believe there is something intrinsic in traditional expressions of whatever great religions there are that allow mankind to bring out the best in himself, and when he loses confidence in that then trouble begins. Religion by nature is not dogmatic, is not literalistic, is not unintelligent. What happens is that societies become complacent of what it is that makes them work, whether in situations of religious diversity or not, breakdown occurs, and then less than honorable rabble rousers and instigators who happen to have a short clear path to material power laid out before them enter into the picture destroy take over, often using truncated religious paradigms to legitimate and/or stroke masses into action.

Very often Christians do terrible things in the name of Christianity, but Christianity does not do that. The same for Muslims and Jews. Would you consider the bombing of Hiroshima to be an act of Christianity, of the Christian faith, of what Jesus to do, or was it an act of a Christian? Is the cruel subjectivation of Islamic women under Taliban rule a requirement of Islam or was it done in the name of Islam? The Quran makes one thing very clear---that Christians and Jews and Muslims should act knowing that the Religion cannot be falsified or proved wrong by misbehavior of its adherents. This means that atheists are wrong in blaming religion for the world's problems, it is the lack of following a successful religious paradigm, or breakdown of it, that leads to problems. No way in Spain could a non-sectarian, non-confessional, non-denominational, non-religious administrative system could have brought those three door to door for so long. Religions can provide the basis of complex paradigms of social rule necessary in diverse needs as well as any other basis. The governing ideas have to be one originating and being legitimized at the Divine level of reality, that is, at a level above the fray of the merely merely human. I mean if one believes that God created man, how can man devise self-rule?

Dear Peacetroll,

It is true about the Jewish conspiracy. And don't listen to Rory.

You may wonder how I know all this?

I am a member of the communist, Jewish, atheist conspiracy of international bankers, media moguls, secular humanists, and moral relativists. I am the Antichrist that Jerry Falwell spoke of when he said, "the Antichrist is probably alive today and is a male Jew."

You are a goner.

Anonymous: you poor man, islam has gripped your brain and stunted it. You can still soar, leave this cult and join humanity. I once was a member of the Jamaat-i-islami in government college nowshera (you know where that is I'm sure), I know all about islam.

Dear Asim,

"It sounds like you are jewish and you should know,if don't already,that the golden age of the jews was under the Arab/Muslim rule in Spain for 800 years."

I take it as a complement that you think I am Jewish because, as a group they are among the most literate, well spoken, and carefully considered folks in the world. But no, I am not Jewish. If you follow these blogs you will know that I was an Atheist for thirty years after coming to irreconcilable differences with the Roman Catholic Church in my youth.

Eventually I lost faith in my Atheism and have spent much time and study on where to go from there. I certainly do believe in God, now, but one sect versus another is not such a clear issue to me. I respect them all.

My Israeli friends would not agree with you that Islam has been a safe home for Jews. They tell me of massacres that Moslems committed against Jews from the beginning.

“Am not marginalising the holocaust at all,because it was repeated again,1n 1992 when the Love Jesus Orthodox xtians commited a genocide of Bosnian Muslims in the heart of civilized Europe-nothing of the sort ever happened in any Muslim lands...”

Yes the Serbs committed crimes against humanity. But who's Air Force pounded them until they stopped? Yes, we were late. But you cannot deny that we finally did act in defense of the Moslems of Bosnia.

As to the last, ask any Hindu. “What does Hindu Kush mean?”, Ask my Israeli friends. Ask the descendants of the sack of Constantinople. You might argue that Islam was no worse than its neighbors, but history records that it was certainly no better either.

“...like many people am skepitical about the number perished in the holocaust and the abuse of the holocaust by some-and all jews-where one writer descibed it as The Holocaust Industry. The important point is that the holocaust did happen and the genocide of Bosinians did happen-regrettably after the horrendous holocaust.”

Both the Spanish Inquisition and the Nazis were meticulous record keepers. Your doubts about the statistics of the Holocaust are fed by propaganda from guys like Ahmadinejad. Your doubts about the statistics of the Inquisition are without foundation in the historical record.

I was also deeply disappointed at slow response of Civilization to the plight of the Bosnians. “Never again!” has to mean never again for anyone. We must get better at stopping these things.

Take the case of the Sudan where Moslems are attacking and starving the local Africans. We should work on that one next...

Arif, or is it Jahel?
Still hidding behind a Muslim name-it won't give you any credibility. for sure you are not Arif-but rather Jahel.

Islamist: Southern Spain Cordoba may bring in money from tourists but it is a drop in the bucket. Spain has many things to offer, I prefer to go to the beaches of Southern Spain and enjoy a vacation than to go and see islamic architecture. Muslims only built palaces, gardens and mosques. Islamic art is limited to caligraphy that too of the koran, boring and dull. Mosques are an eyesore, islamic houses are bad for humans. Islamic music sucks, art and music is banned in islam. So there you have it, if art and music is banned what is left in life? No art no imagination no science.

"The Muslims of Spain were actually slowly becoming less religious by living amongst the infidels. Logically, you are suggesting that people get along better when they stray from their absurd "god texts".

This is a good point. The less fanatically religious you are, the better you can get along with people of another reliigion, or no religion at all.

I continue to be astounded at the amount of hate that always seems to accompany these articles. Suffice it to say that both Christian and Muslim histories are rife with violence, subjugation, and intolerance. Their histories are also filled with achievements in art, literature and science. The common denominator her, however is deification, the belief in "GOD".

Each holy book has moral lessons and teaching on how to treat our fellow man with respect and charity. If you folks could get past your petty hatreds and look to those things each religion has in common, you might find that you are far more alike than you thought.

It is religion that has been to root of all the terrible things you each are throwing in the other's face. We can be moral and kind to our fellow man without bowing to God and fighting each other over whose belief is the right one.

The facts are hard to dispute. Muslim Spain enjoyed a period of peace and prosperity far removed from the constant infighting and abject poverty that encompassed the rest of Europe during the same period. Not all of it was wonderful, and the average person lived a life of poverty like everyone else in Europe, but at least they did not have to contend with the constant warring that went on throughout Christendom for the better part of the 500 years of the middle ages.

Try a little Christian Charity, or Muslim modesty for a change.

anon:

yes muslims founded western civilization, discovered america, lay the groundwork for the computer age and originated all science and the question mark..

but what's really exciting is what they are working on now. they have a new knowledge that is so brilliant -its almost frightening:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joX8Uzm1NF0

I'll be back this evening to cleanup so so much....

but for now, how about a little more on the topic's track--Islam in Spain? If Muslims and Jews and Christians could get along for 600 years, what makes China think the religious model can't work. People don't want to be just practical, that's not in human nature and it won't work for very long, thus the iron fist. Religious lives are far more interesting way to live, boring is the crowd who perfects practicallity. Mr. Chinese Hannity is preaching Eutopeanism after being trained fo so long by secular unEastern fiddlers striving for the perfect worker society. It's Islam and the West against athiest China. No way the US would choose China over Iran in the long run....

Here are wonderful examples of what is taught in mosques and Mr. Wolfe films promulgate:

Muslims Laid the Foundation for Western Civilization

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsPUG6AQS_w&mode=related&search=

Did Columbus Really Discover America?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lEHQKy62LI

Be hesitant when you differentiate yourself from "extremist" Muslims. These are actually the most purely religious followers of Islam. Their extreme actions are what their irrational book tells them to do. The Muslims of Spain were actually slowly becoming less religious by living amongst the infidels. Logically, you are suggesting that people get along better when they stray from their absurd "god texts", and moderate their beliefs. Moderation is just a slow evolution to an eventual rejection of belief. If you literally believe that the Koran is the word of the creator of all things, why moderate it?

I am a Christian that has been marked by the Lord (He uses me to do signs, wonders and miracles). I am such a nobody that it has taken me 15 years to realize that if the Lord is with me no one can intimidate me. I spent years and years asking the Lord why He would choose someone like me and I realized that He has always choosen nobodies like me. I have no one but Him. Included in my walk was an evening spent at prayer, at His request, at the local Assemblies of God church where the Lord spoke to them about their involvement in Israel, as well as locally, and how He was displeased with it. Because I had already established myself as the catalyst for the Lord to speak, they were, of course, not pleased. As has always been the case with the Lord's annointed, I take the brunt of the bruised egos when the Lord is finished chastising. It's a privilege. I spent about three years in the inner city churches, what abuse I saw. The Lord is in the process of cleansing for His faithful, how ridiculous for the clergy to think that they can abuse their own people in the name of the Lord. It was conversations with a Muslim man in a gas station on Sunday mornings about God and His clergy's constant quest for "revenues" above all else that did as much to encourage me through instances of mental, moral and physical threats and slander that kept me going until the Lord said the seed had been planted. I do not know how long it will take the Lord to renew His covenant with His faithful in the inner city but I do know that it has already started and, as the Christ said when He was here, He chooses to be with the tax collectors and sinners. Us nobody little people. It does not surprise me that the Lord can initiate togetherness in Spain and the people who have the "power" can then lead it to discord!

I am a Christian that has been marked by the Lord (He uses me to do signs, wonders and miracles). I am such a nobody that it has taken me 15 years to realize that if the Lord is with me no one can intimidate me. I spent years and years asking the Lord why He would choose someone like me and I realized that He has always choosen nobodies like me. I have no one but Him. Included in my walk was an evening spent at prayer, at His request, at the local Assemblies of God church where the Lord spoke to them about their involvement in Israel, as well as locally, and how He was displeased with it. Because I had already established myself as the catalyst for the Lord to speak, they were, of course, not pleased. As has always been the case with the Lord's annointed, I take the brunt of the bruised egos when the Lord is finished chastising. It's a privilege. I spent about three years in the inner city churches, what abuse I saw. The Lord is in the process of cleansing for His faithful, how ridiculous for the clergy to think that they can abuse their own people in the name of the Lord. It was conversations with a Muslim man in a gas station on Sunday mornings about God and His clergy's constant quest for "revenues" above all else that did as much to encourage me through instances of mental, moral and physical threats and slander that kept me going until the Lord said the seed had been planted. I do not know how long it will take the Lord to renew His covenant with His faithful in the inner city but I do know that it has already started and, as the Christ said when He was here, He chooses to be with the tax collectors and sinners. Us nobody little people. It does not surprise me that the Lord can initiate togetherness in Spain and the people who have the "power" can then lead it to discord!

Zhang Li

Your comments are very interesting,but strangely strident,as if you were a government minister or something.
I share your contempt for religions of the supernatural,and agree that it would be a better world without any of them.Religion makes people think and do really dumb things,while believing they're doing something wonderful; of which 9/11 is the prime example.
But apparently religion is on the rise in China,with Christianity growing in the East and central China,and in the west Islam is causing problems.
So good luck with your pragmatic atheist revolution.
It won't be easy.

The slave trade on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade

To Mary Cunningham,

You said in your first post: "Do you also include the palace of the Emir--who maintained a palace harem of 6,000 women and 13,000 young boys?"

Where did you get this information? If this information is true, how do posters on this forum who maintain that Islamic Spain was an enlightened culture, still maintain that view? But is this information true, or an exageration or a distortion of what actually happened?

To Muslim defenders on this forum - do you have evidence that what Mary Cunningham said is NOT true? And if you don't have such evidence, how do you reconcile your view of Islamic Spain as an enlightened culture, with the presence of so many sexual slaves?

Zhang Li said:
"You may call China communist, but be aware that within the communist party there is far better democracy and meritocracy than western countries".

Horse pucky.

Then Zhang says:
"Chinese leaders have far higher IQs than the leaders of other countries. People of high IQ can never make it in politics of other countries."

Where is the evidence for this? Has some social scientist administered an IQ test to the entire Chinese and American leadership, and made a comparison? If they have, please supply the link.

Zhang, you have an idealized view of China. This is very similar to Americans who have an idealized view of the US, and think that everything the US does is noble. You could be a Chinese Sean Hannity. Once again, like so many defenders of Islam or Christianity on this forum, you only want to look at the good, but not the bad or the ugly. This idealized view of any country, religion or ideology is the problem. Although, if the Chinese are as pragmatic as you say, I think that is something to be admired.

No Shalom: If the US didn't save and back Israel you would have been destroyed along time ago! Looks like your enemies once again are getting ready to fight you. Do you want America's assistance or not? I'll let you be the judge of that when your borders are surrounded by Iran, Syria, Egypt and Jordan...

America is Israels only friend.

Myth 1: The Crusades were wars of unprovoked aggression against a peaceful Muslim world.

This is as wrong as wrong can be. From the time of Mohammed, Muslims had sought to conquer the Christian world. They did a pretty good job of it, too. After a few centuries of steady conquests, Muslim armies had taken all of North Africa, the Middle East, Asia Minor and most of Spain.

In other words, by the end of the 11th century the forces of Islam had captured two-thirds of the Christian world. Palestine, the home of Jesus Christ; Egypt, the birthplace of Christian monasticism; Asia Minor, where St. Paul planted the seeds of the first Christian communities -- these were not the periphery of Christianity but its very core.

And the Muslim empires were not finished yet. They continued to press westward toward Constantinople, ultimately passing it and entering Europe itself. As far as unprovoked aggression goes, it was all on the Muslim side. At some point what was left of the Christian world would have to defend itself or simply succumb to Islamic conquest.