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To T. Dugal and others: You wrote, "Mutual respect of all religions is the cornerstone of tolerance", well if you want to speak about tolerance don't look to Jesus because He did not teach tolerance at all, He came to teach about Love, Love of God and Love of Neighbor and what is different about this from all the others is that God chose to empty Himself and become one of us and even asked permission to do so, He did not violate the free will that He gave to us. Actually God is Love, Pure Love. Judaism and Christianity are not religions anyway, one is a covenential relationship between God and a people and the other is a covenential relationship between God and a person. It really doesn't matter if you believe this, because Truth is Truth whether anyone believes it or not. Knowing God's Name doesn't mean that you are a christian, it just means that you know His Name. Just like the bible may help lead you to God but it is not God. True Religion is taking care of widows and orphans which basically means looking out for all of our brothers and sisters since all of us are members of the human race. God's Plan is for all of His children that are made in the image and likeness of God to be with Him in His Kingdom whether you, and by you I mean all people, like it or not. God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable. It's simple, we try to make it complicated but just because it is simple does not mean it is all that easy. Take care, see you in the Kingdom. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Probably the most dhimmi article I've read so far. Are we supposed to feel sorry for the young Pakistanis traveling around in trains with rucksacks? I'm sure this young man or some relative of his may have participated in the riots that followed in London when the Pope made a statement about Islam, or when the Danish cartoons were printed. There were Muslims all over the streets of London calling for beheading and what was that famous riot quote? "London your 911 is on its way".
Muslims make damn sure the world knows when they are not in agreement with something, they riot in full force no mater where they may be. Why were there no riots when 7/7 took place? or 911 or the Madrid bombings, because the Muslims, all of them were in complete agreement with the raids that their brothers perpetrated. Mohammed their "Prophet" also started his career by raids, 911 was a raid against civilians, unsuspecting ones at that, so was 311 and 7/7. I think the British, Americans and the Spanish citizens should be honored for not burning down the mosques where these Islamic terrorists prayed. It is the restraint that the non-Muslims displayed that should be commended and no pity to the ones who avoid stairs from angry on lookers.
When the Popes riots were taking place not a single Danish citizen was allowed in the streets of any Muslim country, white people did not leave their homes in any Muslim country for fear of being easy targets. I would like to have seen this author traveling in lets say Egypt on a public bus during the Pope riots or the Danish cartoon printing. Save your pity; dhimmi.

The Forceful Minority---Fanatics.
A man whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War 2 owned a
number of large industries and estates. When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave
can guide our attitude toward fanaticism.

"Very few people were true Nazis "he said," but many enjoyed the return
of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of
those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just
sat back and let it all happen.

Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and
the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a
concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories."
We are told again and again by "experts" and "talking heads" that Islam
is the religion of peace, and that the vast majority of Muslims just
want to live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely
irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and
meant to somehow diminish the specter of fanatics rampaging across the
globe in the name of Islam.

The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history.
It is the fanatics who march.
It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide.
It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal
groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire
continent in an Islamic wave.

It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honour kill.
It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque.
It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape
victims and homosexuals. The hard quantifiable fact is that the "peaceful majority" the "silent
majority" is cowed and extraneous.

Communist Russia comprised Russians who just wanted to live in peace,
yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20
million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant.

China's huge population, was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists
managed to kill a staggering 70 million people.
The average Japanese individual prior to World War 2 was not a
warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across
South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic
murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel
and bayonet.

And, who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery. Could it not
be said that the majority of Rwandans were "peace loving"?
History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our
powers of reason we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of
points:

Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence.
Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up,
because like my friend from Germany, they will awake one day and find
that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.
Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs
Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many
others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until
it was too late.

I had a PTSD experience after going to dinner with a group of people (some within the military chaplaincy-- but all of whom I did not know) and after leaving dinner we went to one persons home and while there the group got together for some "prayer" which turned out to be very confusing for me -- nothing I'd seen in a military chapel, the "ring leader" if you will was of middle eastern dissent and after being in the Gulf War working within the munitions area and being "exposed to foreign nationals) I returned home and had a full blown lost in reality thinking someone within the group had planted bombs in my car and were out to kill me my family. My break in reality and confusion caused me to leave the military after 18 years of service because of this "break in reality" that manifested itself for several years after the incident. The reality is out of pure ignorance I ultimately through suspicion only mentally hurt myself.

As noted many times previously but without rebuttal so far: (this is your chance)

A synopsis of the foundations of the major contemporary religions:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth. Analyses of his life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists)via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian sects.

3. Mohammed, an illiterate, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the Koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases and the Filipino koranics. And who funds most of this misery?? The third Axis of Evil, Iran and also the "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

4. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in or hallucinations of "pretty wingy thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centred and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’".

The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."

"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life.

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/BUDDHISM/SIDD.HTM

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the /embellishments and myths surrounding the founders of said rules of life.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus for an analysis of Jesus' life to include his illiteracy.

tony said:
"Who speaks for the Muslim community, it seems to have a multitude of voices each interpreting what the Koran says to his own advantage."

No one is in charge of Islam. Whatever Muslims do in the name of their Faith, drawing from the Koran, the hadiths, and etc., that's what Islam is.

Radical Muslims kidnap, bomb, and murder nonbelievers, any nonbelievers, the world over. Progressives and moderate Muslims scold nonbelievers for noticing.

It proves nothing to point to the majority of Muslims who are not terrorists. Every grain in a sandstorm can plead "not guilty".

Radical Muslims kidnap, bomb, and murder nonbelievers, any nonbelievers, the world over. Progressives and moderate Muslims scold nonbelievers for noticing.

It proves nothing to the majority of Muslims who are not terrorists. Every grain in a sandstorm can plead "not guilty".

Fear and ignorance go hand-in-hand. How are we to understand Muslims in the UK? Extremists grab the headlines. Their views seem crazy and yet we are told that many UK Muslims agree with them. There is very little representative Muslim participation in public discussion to give us the insight and perspective that is needed. It can seem like “them and us” and suspicion, fear and intolerance are never far away. But what are going to do about it? One thing that would help is for our national newspapers to take a strong lead and give a framework for understanding the Muslim experience. This is not going to be easy but as Newsnight’s recent “Battle for Islam” showed there is a great deal that can be done to help.

Who speaks for the Muslim community, it seems to have a multitude of voices each interpreting what the Koran says to his own advantage.

Tim,
Opinions about perfections of Prophets are very singular to that particular religion. We should keep believing in the perfection of the Prophet whose religion we follow and not comment on the others. Mutual respect of all religions is the cornerstone of tolerance.
Here we are not talking about this at all.Peace

Z-Bob.

The concept of timelessness certainly changes the worldviews. Unfortunately it is not proven at this point but at least seems to fit within the confines of the greatest minds that work from an empirical perspective.

It also aligns with the teachings of some spiritual masters.

I believe the biggest impact would be in feeing us from the concepts of absolute right and wrong. Some think this would cause anarchy but as we progress towards being an enlightened society this freedom can moves us towards peace. If we really think about this you can see how it works.

If everything that can and will happen has indeed already happened then the ideas of ‘pleasing’ a God or following the rules to get into Heaven (or hell) or that others are evil are not needed. The concept of that everything that can happen has happened would mean I have been a model Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist and the list goes on. I have been an Atheist, a killer, a victim and everything in between. In that case where do I go when I die? Apparently I have satisfied all the criteria to get into both Heaven and Hell.

We have all done everything that is good and everything that is bad. Theoretically adopting timelessness worldview has created total anarchy and the destruction of our planet and it has saved our planet and turned into a living paradise. Also religion has both totally saved and totally destroyed our planet. To date we have actually seen both of these results of religion in confined areas of the world.

But where does the concept of timelessness leave the human race? It leaves us with a model of doing what works and what does not work. Do what serves your purpose. If your purpose is quest for domination and you are willing to live with the consequences of that then act accordingly. If you quest is peace, love and a happiness for all (versus the self) then act accordingly. If we are indeed all one, which I believe we are, then in reality attaining peace, love and happiness for the self is accomplished by nourishing those things in the whole.

Timelessness would mean our concepts on the religion/afterlife have not been wrong per say but incomplete. It would also mean that I need not fear death or for that matter life since.

As Z-bob said “If we realize that we are creating not only a misperceived past, present and future but actually our timeless eternity as part of the whole, would we act and think differently in every moment of our lives?”

That would preclude people living as spiritual beings instead of conditional beings which means we create our conditions here in the physical realm versus reacting to the conditions that surround us.

Victoria says: "if there were a universal catnip of goodness that attracted all humans and touched all in its wake- we would follow that prototype human to a better way, wouldnt we?"

Yes, we would. He is Jesus Christ the Son of God. We try to follow Him - he lived a perfect life. He is the prefect model. Why follow an imperfect human, Mohamed or anyone else, when you can follow the perfect man who was God in the flesh? Only Christ died for your sins and only Christ can provide salvation.

It is extremely odd that someone would think to characterize Mr. Vallely as somehow tolerating "terrorism" or being unable to find fault with others who commit heinous acts. Mr. Vallely's point is quite the opposite: one of the most effective weapons against terrorism is to not give into that atavistic fear, precisely because that is what terrorists seek to do.

Cause fear.

Rather, Mr. Vallely wisely suggests we embrace Muslims as fellow citizens for the purpose of isolating and harming terrorist recruiting efforts.

The major question one needs to ask of those misunderstanding Mr. Vallely is whether this is some accidental misunderstanding, or some deliberate form of intellectual dishonesty.

Victoria,

You said:
you fellows fly in some rarefied air, thanks for touching down for us fledglings

My thoughts too! Thanks! It's 1:30 a.m., and I was getting bewildered by Z-Bob and Mohamed.

Pax tecum.

you fellows fly in some rarefied air, thanks for touching down for us fledglings

peace

Victoria:

Thank you for your thoughtful and thought provoking contribution. I agree with you that when we examine an individual’s momentary existence, there can be some ambiguity in drawing the line between different levels of selfish behavior and altruistic behavior. Of course, we can act both selfishly and altruistically at the same time and through the same act or thought. My point, however, was meant to paint a portrait of basic human psychology in order that we may point our moral compasses towards a brighter future for humankind. Yes, I must seek out sustenance for my individual existence to maintain life and well being. But do I have to maintain a luxurious lifestyle while millions of fellow humans suffer from malnutrition and impoverished living conditions? Should we interact with each other globally by continuing to emphasize our differences and not our similarities? Should we continue to allow corporate greed to victimize poor people throughout the world?
I agree with you that each individual has the responsibility to be compassionate toward their fellow human with unconditional love and support, but would not a collective conscious mechanism of responsibility be a future goal? One problem with our current inability to fully sustain an enlightened world is our selfish economic systems that encourage selfish motivations in our daily lives. With cooperative economic systems in place, we would not have to struggle for survival in a selfish manner.
It is difficult to recognize our egocentric nature whenever it arises but through mindful practice and enlightened education, we could be on the right path.
You are also correct that if one communicates such extreme consciousness and separated entity one will be attacked. And sometimes crucified! Would the great teachers and prophets want us to limit our attempts to further their teachings because of our pessimism? Or should we be eternally optimistic about a future where the essence of their teachings comes to fruition.

Mohamed Malleck:
For an insightful view of the nature of consciousness within the enigmatic theories of quantum mechanics, I would highly recommend “The Self Aware Universe” by theoretical physicist Amit Goswami and for an excellent website concerning the theoretical physics of a timeless universe I recommend:
http://www.everythingforever.com

May we all practice unconditional love toward our fellow humans everyday and also touch the pure consciousness within us all.

Peace

Victoria,

Assalamu-'Alaikum!

Thank you very much, sister, for the kind thoughts. May Allah Almighty bless you.

Z-BOB,

I hear you very well, my brother.

Besides the Holy Quran, parts of which I read regularly by rote in my daily prayers other parts of which I read less regularly from the printed page in Arabic with English translation, I am also currently reading Roger Penrose's "The Road to Reality" (Vintage Books 2006) and I am smarting with impatience to purchase and read The Carl Sagan Reader "The Varieties of Scientific Experience: A Personal View of the Search for God” (Penguin).

I look forward to future opportunities of exchanging views with you and with my sister Victoria.

Peace!

thanks brother malleck- obviously the practical application of living in a truly altruistic way, has brought up the complications and contradictions that youve experienced with the other humans we share this planet with-

Z_BOB-
but at what point does ones altruism exptend to oneself? even the most enlightened and transcendent of peoples have mechanisms to maintain their own existence-
and these mechanisms do require a sort of judgement and application of values-

because if this unviersal consciousness isnt also available to the lowliest most isolated selfish unloved person in the world- it is incomplete and cant work=

and in trying to communicate with such extreme consciousness and separated entity- one will be attacked- and repeatedly-
and doesnt that person reflect back to us our own hypocrisy, neglect and lack of true deep compassion- because it does take some committment that can't be broken or the collective consciousness snaps apart- and there are many who are good, but also many who are disconnected-

who has the charisma and tenacity to consistently avail themselves to the very real and materially manifested "unevolved".

they are here, and some need to be burned many times by the fires of their own inner violence before they even attempt a chance at hope-

we have our own energy needs, which are selfish- and must be replenished.

it is not so simple as selfless good, selfish bad.

if we take your idea to the extreme practical application- we become victimized martyrs at the mercy of psychic energy vampires.

where do you draw the line and say, these are my limits which i need to perpetuate my own selfhood and path of goodness- and youre (hypothetical other) endless and unsatisfied needs are beyond my capability to sustain you-

at some point people must learn to sustain themselves- and beyond that to giving and hope-

many many people live and die before accomplishing this basic balance.

if there were a universal catnip of goodness that attracted all humans and touched all in its wake- we would follow that prototype human to a better way, wouldnt we?

for all the disparagement given to organized religions- our Prophets have given us a taste of this ability in man-

and the responsibilty to BE maintainers of ourselves and fellow travelers is soley on us alone and in our self contained selfish identity-

for me islam offers me the straight path to this journey
mentating hasnt helped in many practical instances of dealing with other people who need - well- someone who just cares.

peace

Mohamed Malleck, EV, Arminius, Rob Adams:

Thank you all for your thoughtful comments and constructive criticism. Again, it is my opinion that our individual “belief” that we are a separate entity or separate consciousness from other people as well as other creatures is an illusion, and, therefore, our cultural emphasis on individualistic, egocentric lifestyles and economic selfish greed will never lead us to collective enlightenment. Only when we realize that we are not only part of the whole of the creative process unfolding in manifested reality but also intimately, symbiotically and interdependently existing with the unmanifested implicate orders of reality will we create a human culture that welcomes altruistic acts as the expected behavior.

By de-emphasizing our selfish nature through enlightened education and cooperative economic interaction, humankind will be in a position to “self evolve” our collective consciousness. The constant recurrence of situations like immoral, greedy wars or the immoral, greedy humanitarian abuses such as the situation in Darfur (as mentioned by Mohamed Malleck), will be greatly lessened when humans see each other not as separate entities to abuse or victimize, but, instead, as part of themselves and part of all things.
Not only do humans misinterpret their nature as physical and conscious beings, but we also misinterpret the nature of our true reality. Please forgive me as I re-post a part of a contribution I made for some of the other “On Faith” blogs:

In my opinion, the central question to the inquiry into an "afterlife" is the determination of the nature of eternity. It appears that most people who are discussing this topic are presuming a "Newtonian" view of absolute time and excluding from the discussion the theory of absolute space-time as espoused by Einstein and Minkowski. While I will not attempt to explain the intricacies of the theories of relativity, suffice it to say that Einstein thought that the distinction between past, present and future is an illusion. Every moment of spacetime is a timeless entity in and of itself.

Eternity may not be endless time but, instead, eternity may be the timelessness of each moment which never "passes away" from the overall existence within absolute spacetime. Therefore, if eternity is timelessness and our conscious experiences are eternal, then our actions and thoughts exist in this timeless eternity.
We have evolved to psychologically misinterpret much of "true" physical reality as Einstein and his progeny have expressed in not only the theories of relativity but also in quantum mechanics.

If all of our conscious moments are timeless and, therefore, part of the great timeless whole or oneness, then how do our thoughts and actions affect our own "heaven" or "hell"? Do our selfish thoughts and actions "send" us to "hell" for that eternal timeless moment? Do our selfless, altruistic thoughts and actions "send" us to "heaven" for that eternal timeless moment?

Could “god” be the collective consciousness of all space and time that exists in the transcendent order (see Einstein’s absolute space-time, David Bohm’s implicate order, Stephen Hawking’s time has no boundary proposal, etc.) which is actually “created” in the explicate order by conscious beings’ experiences. In other words do our impermanent conscious experiences in the historical dimension create the “god” of the transcendent ultimate dimension. While “god” may be irrelevant in Buddhist thought and practice, (especially as an interceding being) doesn’t the collective consciousness of the ultimate dimension (Zen master Thich Nhat Hanh’s terminology) lead to a similar transcendent, universal, absolute “being”?

If we realize that we are creating not only a misperceived past, present and future but actually our timeless eternity as part of the whole, would we act and think differently in every moment of our lives?

Peace

Paul,
Thanks Much.Why are not there many fair-minded and rational human beings like you? The world would surely have few or no problems.

Mohammed Malleck,
Brilliant. You really expressed my deepest feelings and thoughts on the subject.Thanks.

Ted Baines,
In contrast your ignorance and bigtory are remarkable-and recycled evry time regardless of the topic discussed:lies and hatred. We all know u.

Jai Khosla,
All your posts on this froum regardless of the topic debated is anti-muslim. How could a cow worshipping heathen like u be a self appointed spokesman for US Muslims? Go back to India and attend to your cows and snakes-and leave intelligent debate on this forum to others.

Z-BOB, ROB ADAMS, ARMINIUS,

I love what all three of you write, but, of course, there are contradictions.

Rob argues : " This [universal peace] will only happen once we transcend religion and try to understand one another. " although he then concedes : " If we took the time to truly understood God/universe we would understand that the latter approach is the way that works."

ARMINIUS invokes " the great American Christian minister Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr" and to " that great man also ... Gandhi."

Z-BOB rationalises : " Every man must decide whether he will walk in the light of creative altruism or in the darkness of destructive selfishness".

Of course, the contradiction lies in whether one believes in 'religion' (whatever that may mean or not), whether one believes in specific narrowly-defined and -organised 'religions' and specifically 'mine is good, yours is evil', or whther one believes in the innate goodness of one's fellow human being (by far the large majority of them, whther they are poor or rich, western or eastern, Christian or non-Christian, Muslim or non-Muslim, Hindu or Non-Hindu, 'believer' or 'heathen', white, black, brown, yellow or what-have-you, IRA or Non-IRA, loyalist or non-loyalist, Basque or non-Basque, nobel prize-winning F.W. De Klerk or nobel prize-winning Desmond Tutu, etc.

The issue of altruism presents me an even deeper contradiction. I apologise for not repeating here one Sufi-Islamic notion of the difference between heaven and hell, I have spelt it out in postings relating to the On Faith forum too often already.
But let me explain my dilemma plainly. While in many situations altruism is a very good value to cultivate, in most other situations by far only a Game Theoretic notion of enlightened altruism can maximize the 'pay-out' to all players. The dilemma is this: if I allow myself to all the time maximize the welfare of my buddy, what on earth does HE do? Am I not robbing him of an opportunity for self-validation? Am I not robbing him of an opportunity to grow? Very perspicacious and objective/scientifically-inclined development workers (including 'your obedient servant', as the British used to say) have recently criticized 'Darfur-type' humanitarian intervention as 'humanitarian imperialism', because 'aid' is instrumentalised to grab oil resources. In the area of parenting, naive 'Dr Spock' theories are discredited -- an enlightened parent DOES use non-physical punishment to get a 'good-behaviour' message across to a child, even if that appraoch might be limited to withholding of rewards.

Social scientists have coined the word coopetition or social/spiritual capital to study the evolution of cooperation. There exists a highly scientific (and mathematical) article -- available at the santafe institute's website -- that explains how people learn to take turns.

My point, simply put and translating a point emphasized by both Carl Sagan and Jacob Bronowski that humanity's progress in mastering constructive and destructive technology has, unfortunately, far outgrown our understanding of the constructive and destructive potentials of human nature, is this : we have yet to make significant inroads into solid, scientifically actionable understanding of human nature and human behaviour, but what we have so far understood leaves us in wondermen at the immensity of the hope that it elicits for the human potential.

Bronowski titled his book: "The Ascent of Man", not in anti-thesis to Darwin's "The Descent of Man", but as a kaleidoscopic mirror-image.

Z-Bob

You must write a book. It is a wonderful adventure to read your brilliant thoughts.

Than you for such a thoughtful contribution.

EV

Z-Bob, you said

To quote the great American Christian minister Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.: “Every man must decide whether he will walk in the light of creative altruism or in the darkness of destructive selfishness.”

Well done. And that great man also said, quoting Gandhi, "An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind."

Why, oh, why, cannot we listen to the words of these great men, these giants? The twisted midgets in our administration should listen too.

California I liked your post.

Z-Bob. Thanks for saving me some typing. I agree 100%. Once we understand our true nature only then will things fall in to place for peace to propagate through out the world. This will only happen once we transcend religion and try to understand one another.

Without understanding how can there be peace? We can act out of fear and respond with suspicion and force/violence or we can respond with understanding, love and peace, even towards our enemies. If we took the time to truly understood God/universe we would understand that the latter approach is the way that works.

People say that is a weak response, yet we have never truly given that a chance on the same scale we have given force.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting something different.

Peace

Humans conceptualize their surroundings and phenomena in almost every moment of consciousness. Part of this conceptualization is the ability to discriminate between the different material objects that we perceive. Another necessary strategy for survival is the ability to distinguish one’s self from other selves. Other animals also seem to be able to distinguish their individual entities from other entities but to our knowledge, we may be the only animals to have evolved to the point of conceptual self reflection. (Genesis-they knew they were naked). As highly social creatures with strong attachments to our learned socio-cultural groups, we "create" within our minds a distinction between not only ourselves and other "selves" but also our group and other groups of selves. But doesn’t our false, complex creation of an illusory “self” separate each “individual” from the true nature of the universe: Oneness!

If one looks deeply into their existence, one can determine that humans are not separate entities from the rest of the universe. In other words, we as physical beings are intimately connected to other “things” in the universe. We cannot survive without water, oxygen, vegetables, fruit, etc. and, therefore, we are a “part” of the “whole” Our ability to distinguish ourselves from other humans or animals or plants is an evolutionary strategy for self survival. But when you combine our intellectual abilities of conceptualization with our self awareness, we “create” a complex selfish entity. Within our thoughts over our lifetimes, we create an entity of self that attempts to protect itself from others and attach itself to people and to things. In Christian terminology this selfishness is defined as sin. Selfish acts and thoughts always cause the selfish person to suffer. Also, since in true reality we are part of all things, when we are selfless in thoughts and acts, we are one with God. Is this not essentially what history’s great spiritual teachers were teaching?

At a time in human history when the spiritual communities of mankind should be uniting in a pluralistic and ecumenical manner in order for an evolution of consciousness to occur, this type of devolution into a selfish exclusion of others can only lead to more discrimination against "other" belief systems. Is the world not already in a crisis mode due to religious exclusiveness?
Of course, religious institutions of many types suffer from the same attachments to a self entity that cause individual humans to suffer on a daily basis. By promoting their self interest, organizations and individuals separate themselves from all "others". Until our species comes to the full realization that we are not autonomous "things" but instead only part of all things (both physically and consciously), we will be sidetracked from the path toward the ultimate goal of universal peaceful collective consciousness existing timelessly in the transcendent ultimate dimension. .

We must continue to strive toward a future of inclusion instead of division in order to continue our quest toward being fully evolved creatures within our universe. While our divisions as individuals and as groups have served our struggles to survive in a hostile world, we have now evolved to the point where we must strive to educate ourselves about our true nature as our great spiritual teachers have attempted to impart to us. If we do not unite together with the understanding of our interconnectedness and mutual interdependence in a rapidly shrinking world, we may not survive. May we one day all find peace in every moment and compassion and unconditional love for all.

To quote the great American Christian minister Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.: “Every man must decide whether he will walk in the light of creative altruism or in the darkness of destructive selfishness.”

I for one was not surprised by 9/11 and other attacks on the west by Muslims. I grew up in India among Muslims and knew Muslims very well. I rarely found them to be unconditionally loyal to India. Had Pakistan not been such a mess and had Pakistan not passed a law that prohibited Muslims, for whom Pakistan had been created, from migrating to Pakistan, many more Muslims from India would have gone to Pakistan.

After I came to the USA I noticed that anti-west feelings among Muslims to be very common. I had in fact predicted to my friends that Muslims would attack the the USA very soon. I had come to this conclusion after attending a speech by a Muslim in Cambridge , Mass.

Islam requires that Muslims be loyal first to islam and the larger Muslim community, not to the country that feeds them.

Had Mr. Vallely interacted with Muslims more before the tube bombings, he would not have been surprised that Muslims born in the UK would attack it.

Why on earth would anybody regard all Muslims with suspicion?

That would be simply prejudice and stereotyping.

Not all Muslims are deeply religious.

Why on earth would anybody regard all Muslims with suspicion?

That would be simply prejudice and stereotyping.

Not all Muslims are deeply religious.

What you speak of is exactly one of the goals of terrorism isn't it? Remember when Jesus told us that satan was the prince of this world and also told us that He had overcome the world well guess what, until Jesus exerts His Authority don't expect things to get better. You could look at it as night is coming when no man can work, some of you may have heard that statement before. God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not religious affiliations or lack thereof, that should be self-explanatory, it does matter what you do and why you do it, believing in God only means that you believe in God and not believing in God means you don't believe in God but how do you actually live or at least try to live? We do have free will. God's Plan is for all of His children to be with Him in the Kingdom even if some of the holier than thou's don't agree with His Plan. We are all brothers and sisters whether we like it or not to say otherwise is to say some are human and others aren't, that is just a lie. God wins Total Victory, satan loses totally, a tie is unacceptable. God is Love, Pure Love, whatever you do for Love you do for God, spewing out hatred in God's Name is not honoring God. Take care. Be ready. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

What you don't seem to be taking into consideration, although 'only a tiny few' erupt in violence, moslem mosques are controlled by the saudi-arabia ideology that supports this jihad against the west. They fund the terrorists.

People have good reason to be wary of those supporting violence along with those who create violence.

If a million Muslims would march several times on the street shouting "death to bin Laden" then the process of trusting them will begin. The only time they march if if a picture of Muhammad is published or the Pope quotes from ancient writings passages that seem critical of Muhammad.

Another "blame the victim" article by pseudo-liberal. Do you find nothing wrong with what Muslims do?

This may be the best, most sensible, and thought provoking piece ever presented on these forums. IMHO.

Prejudice always employs the Black Horse Tautology:
That's a horse.
That horse is black.
Therefore, all horses are black.
Substitute a few other words here:
Muslims bombed the London underground.
Those Muslims were terrorists.
Therefore, all Muslims are terrorists.

C'mon people, we know better than that. I hope. And pray.

Not like Muslims help much, there's not the level of denunciation of violence a rational person would expect from their community. No one's issuing anti-violence Fatwas, and the only people who get play in the press, mainly because they're the ones trying to get play in the press, are the violent ones.

Hatred and violence are poor recruitment tools, but they are music to the ears of people who already embrace hatred.

Yes, indeed, the actions of a tiny few have tarnished the reputation of an entire people. The small cabal of "Loyal Bushies" and neoconservatives who took control of the White House -- in 2000, selected, not elected, by a Supreme Court claque, and in 2004 by probably rigged elections -- are now about to impel the United States into war with Iran. This follows the plunge into Iraq, the worst geostrategic debacle in the modern history of the United States.

This tiny few, led by Cheney, have made George W. Bush, in the minds of most professional historians, the worst president in U.S. history. His popularity now has sunk to that of Nixon on the eve of the latter's exit from office. His popularity is dismal throughout the world.

Please, people of the world, do not judge all Americans with suspicion. Suspend your hatred. Do not equate the 70 percent of Americans who now oppose Bush with the small cabal that has so discredited our nation and people. Don't be deceived as we were. Give us time to set things right. Thank you.

Dear Paul,

Tears ran profusely down my cheeks as I read your article.

You look at my name and you will understand why.

But, you also write: " The danger is that suspicion can be a self-fulfilling prophecy."

I swear to you, over the heads of my just-married medical-student, daughter and my two sons, one just-graduated with great distinction in Acturial Science, the other alos a medical student, both just back from their Friday prayers, that there is not one chance in 10 to the power of 15 that, for me or my children or 99.9% of Muslims that that suspicion could trun into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

However, it DOES debase the humanity of those who foolishly entertain such suspicions regarding those 99%.

But, God bless you, Sir! Allah Almighty bless you! As Carl Sagan reminded us in an article he had written for the Centennail Issue of the International Herald Tribune, because the size of our Planet's atmosphere relative to the Universe is so infinitesimally tiny, it is certain that, at some point, some of the molecules of oxygen that are in my lungs had at one point, beenin your lungs and indeed, in the lungs of Jesus, of Buddha, of the Prophet of Islam, but yes, also of Ivan the Terrible and of Hitler, maybe.

The real problem is that you people are so scared of having this fear that you go in the other direction.

In other words, you tolerate terrorists, terrorism, and the terrorists way of thinking so as not to appear anti-Muslim.

one of my favorite statements to make on these boards, and one that i keep at the top of my consciousness is that in any situation, we must first have suspicion for the good intentions in people-

while some may find this an unrealistic attitude-
as a muslim it is one of the basics of my faith.

too many times to enumerate situations that could have soured have had positive results from enacting this precept-

i become more convinced with time that the suspicious and fearful and the dangerous covert threatening ones attract each other through their mutual distrust and negativity.

i respect you sharing this story with us-
peace

I totally agree with Paul Vallely. Hatred generates more hatred, then, now, and at any time in the future. Nothing can be done until we stop hating each other.