moderate- i searched the us national library of medicine (the largest resource in the world) and found no evidence that galen started the first hospital- however- no one questions or denies his incredible impact on the world- he was certainly a surgeon-
perhaps you have information to correct this-
heres a link to the development of hospitals by muslims in the world- by te same source-
Thank you for weighing in on this. I find it especially helpful to know that there are doctors who care about this issue other than the ones who wish to force their religion upon their patients' medical care. Were I in your care, I would find your approach entirely appropriate, and, in fact, you sound very much like my current doctor. I find no problem with integrating spiritual aspects into medical care so long as it is for the benefit of the patient and, most importantly, with the patient's informed acknoledgement that they find it appropriate for their care. Also, just as I find it completely inappropriate for a doctor to withhold treatments from their patients for religious reasons, I would find it just as inappropriate for a doctor to insist upon a treatment that the patient found morally repugnant, after that patient had declined that course of action. In the end, the entire point behind the doctor-patient relationship is to benefit the patient's health, not to secure a place in heaven for the doctor's soul.
In America, we have the right to believe whatever we choose concerning gods and religion. However, this freedom does not guarantee the right of respect.
We show no respect to those who deny the holocaust or call psychic hot-lines. So why treat irrational religious belief any different?
When it comes to medicine, for God's sake (pun intended) we need to demand logic and reason.
For far to long, people of reason, have tried to peacefully coexist with people of faith. However, the "faithful" are not content to keep it to themselves.
In America, we have the right to believe whatever we choose concerning gods and religion. However, this freedom does not guarantee the right of respect.
We show no respect to those who deny the holocaust or call psychic hot-lines. So why treat irrational religious belief any different?
When it comes to medicine, for God's sake (pun intended) we need to demand logic and reason.
For far to long, people of reason, have tried to peacefully coexist with people of faith. However, the "faithful" are not content to keep it to themselves.
Well said! I think that sort of collaborative interaction, which takes into account all sources of support for a patient to be logical, and really puts the patient first. It's similar to how I was trained when I did case management work at a domestic violence shelter (and other non-profit work). I also found many of my clients drew strength from their beliefs, and it was helpful for them to be able to talk about it (and to feel free to pray).
A collaborative relationship is always something I look for from a doctor. After all, much of what dictates my own health is how well I take care of myself (exercise, diet, stress management), how well I communicate my concerns to my doctor, and how well I follow my doctor's advice.
TO DR MICHAEL,
I know of one case where a relative of mine went to an orthopedist for a joint replacement, & the doctor found a spot on his lung x-ray. (As everyone who has had surgery knows, a lung x-ray was taken before surgery to rule out tumors or other lung problems.) The doctor did not tell him about the spot, just did the joint replacement. A year later, the patient came in for another joint replacement & another x-ray was taken prior to surgery. The same spot was still on it, but bigger. The orthopedist replaced that joint as well, but still didn't tell him about the spot on his lung. It wasn't until he began coughing & went to his GP, who sent him to a specialist, who sent him to another specialist, that he found out he had lung cancer, advanced stage by then, and he died within 6 months. He filed a lawsuit, & his wife eventually got money but not satisfaction. She tried to get the doctor's medical license revoked because they found out this was not the 1st time he'd lost a lawsuit. She failed. Even the judge was said to have told the doctor if he could have taken his license away, he would have.
To me, it's every doctor's responsibility to take care of the whole person, not just one part of him.
Michael (the evil fantasy doctor, not the other one):
Interesting string of posts...and lots of upset folks on both sides of the fence. Soooo many people that think they have a monopoly on the right way to do things.
Probably shouldn't do this, but it could be an interesting exercise. I'll explain at least how I work things, and see what you all think. Feel free to tell me if you think I'm doing things wrong (and from the above posts, I know you will).
A patient comes in to see me in clinic. If I don’t know them, I introduce myself and try to get to know them. Not only do I find out what’s wrong that caused them to come in that day, but I try to find out about their past medical history, medications they are taking, any allergies, family history, and their social history including such things as if they are married, where they work, if wear a seat belt or drink alcohol, etc. I almost never ask about religious habits, but might if they have time, I have time, and something indicates that they may be approachable about such things such as an item of religious jewelry or something. I perform a physical appropriate for the complaint that brought them in, formulate a diagnosis, and present a proposed treatment plan based upon *all* the data I’ve collected up to that point that I believe would be the best option or options for that individual patient. I also use that time if they’re a new patient to explain that I’m more of a collaborative physician—that I believe that they hold the ultimate responsibility for their health care, and that I will do what I can to assist in improving their health, but if they disagree with my recommendations they need to communicate that with me so we can make a plan for treatment that they feel will best work for them. For returning patients that I know, usually this is much abbreviated to a greeting followed by quickly getting to the problem at hand.
Of course, all sorts of permutations can arise over time, and with the question being the role of religion here, I’ll get to the point. Usually, religion in my clinic comes up in one of two ways:
A) The patient approaches me on the subject. Probably the more common of the two, something is going on in the patient’s life that causes them to reach out to me. Usually the patient simply asks me to pray for or with them. Incidentally, I always agree, regardless of the religion as long as it doesn’t require an action on my part that would violate my personal religion. I find this almost always is quite beneficial to the patient as evidenced by some subjective physical signs such as observing a more relaxed muscle tone or improvement in vocal quality. It also is good for me as well, and has allowed me the opportunity to participate in some activities that I would never otherwise have done. For example, I recently attended a Buddhist ceremony for a patient and her family. I’m not a Buddhist, but it seemed to be a comfort for the family and reassure them that they were not alone in their crisis.
B) I approach the patient on the subject. Less common, but as much as I hate to admit it, medicine doesn’t have all the answers, and there are some situations where religion helps more than I can. I try to carefully approach the patient on their own grounds, but directly ask what is going on in their spiritual life. I don’t mention any particular brand, but leave it up to the patient. Sometimes I’m told to go to hell, but more often than not the patient will tell me where they are, and I offer as one possible part of their health care plan to work with their religion on the issue at hand. As always, they’re free to reject my advice, and we’ll look towards other potential options for treatment. I include with this that people are more than just a bag full of chemicals, and that they may find some answers to their problems outside of the medical clinic. If asked directly, I will share with them which religious tradition I follow, and if further pressed what insights my tradition might have regarding their condition, but overall that has been pretty rare.
Religion has come up one other time that I can recall over the past 12 or so years, and that was just in this past year. A young woman was referred to me for Plan B. I discussed with her the aspects of her health and current situation, and we formulated that the best plan for her was indeed my prescription of Plan B. We went over the precautions, what she should look for, and when and if she needed to follow up. I thought we were done when she asked me point blank why her regular doctor couldn’t take care of her. I told her that I couldn’t honestly say exactly why in her case, but that her regular doctor and I had discussed in general terms his beliefs against Plan B, and that I would be honored to see and care for any of his patients that would require the treatment as I did not have the same beliefs. She asked what did I believe, and I took that as an open invitation to do just that. She left, and seemed to do so with the impression that she had been well cared for. After all, she has become one of my regular patients.
All this is to say in short that there are times where medicine and religion mix very well to the overall benefit of the patient as a whole person, and a member of a family and community. To ignore religion as an aspect of the whole person is as wrong as a neurologist who ignored the heart.
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moderate- i searched the us national library of medicine (the largest resource in the world) and found no evidence that galen started the first hospital- however- no one questions or denies his incredible impact on the world- he was certainly a surgeon-
perhaps you have information to correct this-
heres a link to the development of hospitals by muslims in the world- by te same source-
i look forward to reading any links you provide
peace http://www.nlm.nih.gov/exhibition/islamic_medical/islamic_12.html
August 11, 2007 4:32 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on August 11, 2007 16:32
Dr. Micahael,
Thank you for weighing in on this. I find it especially helpful to know that there are doctors who care about this issue other than the ones who wish to force their religion upon their patients' medical care. Were I in your care, I would find your approach entirely appropriate, and, in fact, you sound very much like my current doctor. I find no problem with integrating spiritual aspects into medical care so long as it is for the benefit of the patient and, most importantly, with the patient's informed acknoledgement that they find it appropriate for their care. Also, just as I find it completely inappropriate for a doctor to withhold treatments from their patients for religious reasons, I would find it just as inappropriate for a doctor to insist upon a treatment that the patient found morally repugnant, after that patient had declined that course of action. In the end, the entire point behind the doctor-patient relationship is to benefit the patient's health, not to secure a place in heaven for the doctor's soul.
August 11, 2007 11:37 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on August 11, 2007 11:37
In America, we have the right to believe whatever we choose concerning gods and religion. However, this freedom does not guarantee the right of respect.
We show no respect to those who deny the holocaust or call psychic hot-lines. So why treat irrational religious belief any different?
When it comes to medicine, for God's sake (pun intended) we need to demand logic and reason.
For far to long, people of reason, have tried to peacefully coexist with people of faith. However, the "faithful" are not content to keep it to themselves.
Richard
http://lifewithoutfaith.com/
August 10, 2007 11:56 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on August 10, 2007 23:56
In America, we have the right to believe whatever we choose concerning gods and religion. However, this freedom does not guarantee the right of respect.
We show no respect to those who deny the holocaust or call psychic hot-lines. So why treat irrational religious belief any different?
When it comes to medicine, for God's sake (pun intended) we need to demand logic and reason.
For far to long, people of reason, have tried to peacefully coexist with people of faith. However, the "faithful" are not content to keep it to themselves.
Richard
http://lifewithoutfaith.com/
August 10, 2007 11:47 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on August 10, 2007 23:47
Michael:
Well said! I think that sort of collaborative interaction, which takes into account all sources of support for a patient to be logical, and really puts the patient first. It's similar to how I was trained when I did case management work at a domestic violence shelter (and other non-profit work). I also found many of my clients drew strength from their beliefs, and it was helpful for them to be able to talk about it (and to feel free to pray).
A collaborative relationship is always something I look for from a doctor. After all, much of what dictates my own health is how well I take care of myself (exercise, diet, stress management), how well I communicate my concerns to my doctor, and how well I follow my doctor's advice.
August 10, 2007 8:07 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on August 10, 2007 20:07
TO DR MICHAEL,
I know of one case where a relative of mine went to an orthopedist for a joint replacement, & the doctor found a spot on his lung x-ray. (As everyone who has had surgery knows, a lung x-ray was taken before surgery to rule out tumors or other lung problems.) The doctor did not tell him about the spot, just did the joint replacement. A year later, the patient came in for another joint replacement & another x-ray was taken prior to surgery. The same spot was still on it, but bigger. The orthopedist replaced that joint as well, but still didn't tell him about the spot on his lung. It wasn't until he began coughing & went to his GP, who sent him to a specialist, who sent him to another specialist, that he found out he had lung cancer, advanced stage by then, and he died within 6 months. He filed a lawsuit, & his wife eventually got money but not satisfaction. She tried to get the doctor's medical license revoked because they found out this was not the 1st time he'd lost a lawsuit. She failed. Even the judge was said to have told the doctor if he could have taken his license away, he would have.
To me, it's every doctor's responsibility to take care of the whole person, not just one part of him.
August 10, 2007 7:52 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on August 10, 2007 19:52
Interesting string of posts...and lots of upset folks on both sides of the fence. Soooo many people that think they have a monopoly on the right way to do things.
Probably shouldn't do this, but it could be an interesting exercise. I'll explain at least how I work things, and see what you all think. Feel free to tell me if you think I'm doing things wrong (and from the above posts, I know you will).
A patient comes in to see me in clinic. If I don’t know them, I introduce myself and try to get to know them. Not only do I find out what’s wrong that caused them to come in that day, but I try to find out about their past medical history, medications they are taking, any allergies, family history, and their social history including such things as if they are married, where they work, if wear a seat belt or drink alcohol, etc. I almost never ask about religious habits, but might if they have time, I have time, and something indicates that they may be approachable about such things such as an item of religious jewelry or something. I perform a physical appropriate for the complaint that brought them in, formulate a diagnosis, and present a proposed treatment plan based upon *all* the data I’ve collected up to that point that I believe would be the best option or options for that individual patient. I also use that time if they’re a new patient to explain that I’m more of a collaborative physician—that I believe that they hold the ultimate responsibility for their health care, and that I will do what I can to assist in improving their health, but if they disagree with my recommendations they need to communicate that with me so we can make a plan for treatment that they feel will best work for them. For returning patients that I know, usually this is much abbreviated to a greeting followed by quickly getting to the problem at hand.
Of course, all sorts of permutations can arise over time, and with the question being the role of religion here, I’ll get to the point. Usually, religion in my clinic comes up in one of two ways:
A) The patient approaches me on the subject. Probably the more common of the two, something is going on in the patient’s life that causes them to reach out to me. Usually the patient simply asks me to pray for or with them. Incidentally, I always agree, regardless of the religion as long as it doesn’t require an action on my part that would violate my personal religion. I find this almost always is quite beneficial to the patient as evidenced by some subjective physical signs such as observing a more relaxed muscle tone or improvement in vocal quality. It also is good for me as well, and has allowed me the opportunity to participate in some activities that I would never otherwise have done. For example, I recently attended a Buddhist ceremony for a patient and her family. I’m not a Buddhist, but it seemed to be a comfort for the family and reassure them that they were not alone in their crisis.
B) I approach the patient on the subject. Less common, but as much as I hate to admit it, medicine doesn’t have all the answers, and there are some situations where religion helps more than I can. I try to carefully approach the patient on their own grounds, but directly ask what is going on in their spiritual life. I don’t mention any particular brand, but leave it up to the patient. Sometimes I’m told to go to hell, but more often than not the patient will tell me where they are, and I offer as one possible part of their health care plan to work with their religion on the issue at hand. As always, they’re free to reject my advice, and we’ll look towards other potential options for treatment. I include with this that people are more than just a bag full of chemicals, and that they may find some answers to their problems outside of the medical clinic. If asked directly, I will share with them which religious tradition I follow, and if further pressed what insights my tradition might have regarding their condition, but overall that has been pretty rare.
Religion has come up one other time that I can recall over the past 12 or so years, and that was just in this past year. A young woman was referred to me for Plan B. I discussed with her the aspects of her health and current situation, and we formulated that the best plan for her was indeed my prescription of Plan B. We went over the precautions, what she should look for, and when and if she needed to follow up. I thought we were done when she asked me point blank why her regular doctor couldn’t take care of her. I told her that I couldn’t honestly say exactly why in her case, but that her regular doctor and I had discussed in general terms his beliefs against Plan B, and that I would be honored to see and care for any of his patients that would require the treatment as I did not have the same beliefs. She asked what did I believe, and I took that as an open invitation to do just that. She left, and seemed to do so with the impression that she had been well cared for. After all, she has become one of my regular patients.
All this is to say in short that there are times where medicine and religion mix very well to the overall benefit of the patient as a whole person, and a member of a family and community. To ignore religion as an aspect of the whole person is as wrong as a neurologist who ignored the heart.