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Sam, thank you for these thoughts. "Have a practice. Watch it like a hawk." Very wise words. I believe you follow your own advice, and live your practice through your actions. Peace be with you.

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JONNY:

Can't pretend, as do you, to be an expert on so many men of the arts, but a few notable exceptions in your list are worth, well, noting:

"Robert Frost, Vincent Van Gogh [Noted Evangelical Christian missionary who turned to art when his credentials and assignment were revoked by the Beligan Evangelical Mission Society -- whom he fought energeticallyto maintain his calling and the right to pursue it for life], Ernest Hemingway [Hedonist], Arthur C. Clarke [Futurist], Dave Matthews [Musicist], Billy Joel [Catholic], George Carlin, Voltaire, Mark Twain [Humorist], Frank Zappa [Guitarist], Gene Roddenberry [Relativist], George Bernard Shaw [Spiritualist], George Burns [Witticist], Groucho Marx [Jewish], W.C. Fields [Alcoholican], Leo Tolstoy, Kurt Vonnegut [Novelist], James Joyce [Magnu Opusist], Isaac Asimov Science Fictionist], John Lennon [Imaginist], Frank Lloyd Wright [Self-Centrist], Alfred Hitchcock [Catholic], Irving Berlin [Jewish], George Orwell [Time Travelist], Robert Heinlein [Trekist], Oscar Wilde [Manist], Percy Bysshe Shelley [Poetist], Christopher Marlowe [Dramatist], Noel Coward [Cowardist], Charlie Chaplin [Lyricist], H.P. Lovecraft, Woody Allen [Jewish], Gillian Anderson UFOlogist], Marlon Brando [Shosheen Little Featherisst], Dick Cavett [Conversationalist], Jean Luc Godard [Celluloid Artist], John Sayles [Huhist], Jodie Foster [Cosmologist], Mira Sorvino [Italianist], Simone de Beauvoir [Ist], Gore Vidal [Selfist], William Shatner [Jewish], Stanley Kubrick [Halist], Ursula K. LeGuin [Confusist], Ian McKellen [Gayist], Burt Lancaster [Toughist], Katharine Hepburn [Academy Award Winning Fornicationist], Christopher Reeve [Equuist], Max von Sydow [Jesusist], Ingmar Bergman [Scaariest], Rodney Dangerfield [Respectist Interruptus] ... Diane Keaton ["Reds" Communist], Arthur Rubenstein [Pianist]...."

I'm sure a more learned mind than mine could fill in many blanks, but to the extent that you wish to challenge these and lifestyle, I might well agree. Then again, rebellion against the legitimate "faith of our fathers" does not an enlightened (wo)man make -- perhaps an endarkened one, one might argue!

To our nation's C.D.B. Bryan, Abraham Lincoln,
Q.E.D. and Jack McCoy, but always, first and foremost, Citizen Sam Waterston (Activist and pundit on matters of politics and faith!)

My career and entertainment choices have been shaped over the years by the fantastic work of Sam Waterston, from "Friendly Fire" and "The Killing Fields" onward! (Then, going back to "Fitzwilly" with my kids, I must confess -- though McCoy would have caught and convicted Fitzwilly and his gang!)

As an evangelical "born again" (not a term coined by Chuck Colson or Jimmy Carter, but Jesus Himself) Christian pastor, I know that Sam and I probably disagree on many matters of faith, but I hold him in high regard as a professional and a man of conscience willing to wrestle with the hardest questions of personal and corporate faith and like in the "body politick"! And in spite of such likely disagreement, I have long suspected he would be among the most worthwhile and memorable of dinner guests and friends -- whether we were of like faith (or not) -- and find much of what he says here consistent with what I know and believe to be the call on the lives created and sustained by the One God of the Universe and Hope of the World.

But, I must say, I believe that those things Sam proclaims and supports in his post here are not the exclusive call!

In a world in which many now speak of "holistic" this and that, one must be careful not to cherry pick the virtues and commands and characteristics that serve them best, but embrace and manifest and propogate all of those, "For to every thing there is a season and a time for every purpose under heaven"! Just as Sam and his hallmark character, Jack McCoy, show us, there is a time to speak and a time to refrain from speaking, even a time for calm and a time for righteous anger -- not anger that hurts, but anger that upsets the tables in the temple when it is mete and right to do so! Sometimes that temple is the temple of the civil authorities, our workplaces, our churches and mosques and temples, the family dinner table and, perhaps most of all, the private temple of our own hearts -- wherever perversion and self-interest and rebellion and injustice and disobedience to true and righteous authority (and sin) reign!

Raise a "Kennedy and Carter Democrat" and transformed into a "Reagan/Bush through Bush" ERA conservative, I find myself curiously draw (but carefully assessing before deciding) to the new third party Waterston and his friends propose creating here in the US. Though I deeply despise many of the anti-life policies of our current crop of liberals and leftists, and was recently recruited to be the Communication Director for the Republican Party in one of our nation's captiol cities (something I once would have relished as a dream job), I have become so appalled at the "politics of character assassination and demonization" that I hope that both faith and reason might prevail in some effort -- perhaps that by Waterston and others -- to apply our "better angels" (without "selling out" and corruption and compromise) to the critical task of being biblical and honorable stewards of the lives and nation and resources God has seen fit to allow us to call the United States of America (and the world)!

I can only hope that we do not move forwrd thinking that all that is modern is necessarily advanced and new and improved and good! I don't know where Sam stands on this, but I have grown weary of hering the word "leadership" used to describe anyone who holds a position of power, whether in our home towns, state legislatures, national governments or world bodies. Just as "citizenship" defines the character of being a good citizen (citizenry is the group of people who are citizens), "leadership" refers to the characteristics related to being a good leader! I hope and pray that Sam is interested in building a future filled with men and women who manifest the characteristics of true, good, honorable and commendable leadership traits and virtues, not those who win a position of power to do more of the same garbage we've seen for decades from too many "leaders" only to pull down a lifelong pensio for a few years of poor "leadership" and perversion of position and power!

From the man who has so ably played Lincoln and the Lincol-esque Jack McCoy, I hope we can count on a vision of a nation led by a plethora of Lincolns and Washingtons and Adamses and Carters -- dare I say, whether Republican, Democrat, Independent or of Sam's new Unity Party (is that the name?), women and men of true faith, vision, compassion, courage and conviction who do not fear to do what is right without question or pause, not prefect or always right, but passionately committed to transformational leadership that declares, in both word and works, "I come not to be served but to serve!"

To our nation's C.D.B. Bryan, Abraham Lincoln,
Q.E.D. and Jack McCoy, but always, first and foremost, Citizen Sam Waterston (Activist and pundit on matters of politics and faith!)

My career and entertainment choices have been shaped over the years by the fantastic work of Sam Waterston, from "Friendly Fire" and "The Killing Fields" onward! (Then, going back to "Fitzwilly" with my kids, I must confess -- though McCoy would have caught and convicted Fitzwilly and his gang!)

As an evangelical "born again" (not a term coined by Chuck Colson or Jimmy Carter, but jesus Himself) Christian pastor, I know that Sam and I probably disagree on many matters of faith, but I hold him in high regard as a professional and a man of conscience willing to wrestle with the hardest questions of personal and corporate faith and like in the "body politick"! And in spite of such likely disagreement, I have long suspected he would be among the most worthwhile and memorable of dinner guests and friends -- whether we were of like faith (or not) -- and find much of what he says here consistent with what I know and believe to be the call on the lives created and sustained by the One God of the Universe and Hope of the World.

But, I must say, I believe that those things Sam proclaims and supports in his post here are not the exclusive call!

In a world in which many now speak of "holistic" this and that, one must be careful not to cherry pick the virtues and commands and characteristics that serve them best, but embrace and manifest and propogate all of those, "For to every thing there is a season and a time for every purpose under heaven"! Just as Sam and his hallmark character, Jack McCoy, show us, there is a time to speak and a time to refrain from speaking, even a time for calm and a time for righteous anger -- not anger that hurts, but anger that upsets the tables in the temple when it is mete and right to do so! Sometimes that temple is the temple of the civil authorities, our workplaces, our churches and mosques and temples, the family dinner table and, perhaps most of all, the private temple of our own hearts -- wherever perversion and self-interest and rebellion and injustice and disobedience to true and righteous authority (and sin) reign!

Raise a "Kennedy and Carter Democrat" and transformed into a "Reagan/Bush through Bush" ERA conservative, I find myself curiously draw (but carefully assessing before deciding) to the new third party Waterston and his friends propose creating here in the US. Though I deeply despise many of the anti-life policies of our current crop of liberals and leftists, and was recently recruited to be the Communication Director for the Republican Party in one of our nation's captiol cities (something I once would have relished as a dream job), I have become so appalled at the "politics of character assassination and demonization" that I hope that both faith and reason might prevail in some effort -- perhaps that by Waterston and others -- to apply our "better angels" (without "selling out" and corruption and compromise) to the critical task of being biblical and honorable stewards of the lives and nation and resources God has seen fit to allow us to call the United States of America (and the world)!

I can only hope that we do not move forwrd thinking that all that is modern is necessarily advanced and new and improved and good! I don't know where Sam stands on this, but I have grown weary of hering the word "leadership" used to describe anyone who holds a position of power, whether in our home towns, state legislatures, national governments or world bodies. Just as "citizenship" defines the character of being a good citizen (citizenry is the group of people who are citizens), "leadership" refers to the characteristics related to being a good leader! I hope and pray that Sam is interested in building a future filled with men and women who manifest the characteristics of true, good, honorable and commendable leadership traits and virtues, not those who win a position of power to do more of the same garbage we've seen for decades from too many "leaders" only to pull down a lifelong pensio for a few years of poor "leadership" and perversion of position and power!

From the man who has so ably played Lincoln and the Lincol-esque Jack McCoy, I hope we can count on a vision of a nation led by a plethora of Lincolns and Washingtons and Adamses and Carters -- dare I say, whether Republican, Democrat, Independent or of Sam's new Unity Party (is that the name?), women and men of true faith, vision, compassion, courage and conviction who do not fear to do what is right without question or pause, not prefect or always right, but passionately committed to transformational leadership that declares, in both word and works, "I come not to be served but to serve!"

To our nation's C.D.B. Bryan, Abraham Lincoln
Q.E.D. and Jack McCoy, but always, first and foremost, Citizen Sam Waterston (Activist and pundit on matters of politics and faith!)

My career and entertainment choices have been shaped over the years by the fantastic work of Sam Waterston, from "Friendly Fire" and "The Killing Fields" onward! (Then, going back to "Fitzwilly" with my kids, I must confess -- though McCoy would have caught and convicted Fitzwilly and his gang!)

As an evangelical "born again" (not a term coined by Chuck Colson or Jimmy Carter, but jesus Himself) Christian pastor, I know that Sam and I probably disagree on many matters of faith, but I hold him in high regard as a professional and a man of conscience willing to wrestle with the hardest questions of personal and corporate faith and like in the "body politick"! And in spite of such likely disagreement, I have long suspected he would be among the most worthwhile and memorable of dinner guests and friends -- whether we were of like faith (or not) -- and find much of what he says here consistent with what I know and believe to be the call on the lives created and sustained by the One God of the Universe and Hope of the World.

But, I must say, I believe that those things Sam proclaims and supports in his post here are not the exclusive call!

In a world in which many now speak of "holistic" this and that, one must be careful not to cherry pick the virtues and commands and characteristics that serve them best, but embrace and manifest and propogate all of those, "For to every thing there is a season and a time for every purpose under heaven"! Just as Sam and his hallmark character, Jack McCoy, show us, there is a time to speak and a time to refrain from speaking, even a time for calm and a time for righteous anger -- not anger that hurts, but anger that upsets the tables in the temple when it is mete and right to do so! Sometimes that temple is the temple of the civil authorities, our workplaces, our churches and mosques and temples, the family dinner table and, perhaps most of all, the private temple of our own hearts -- wherever perversion and self-interest and rebellion and injustice and disobedience to true and righteous authority (and sin) reign!

Raise a "Kennedy and Carter Democrat" and transformed into a "Reagan/Bush through Bush" ERA conservative, I find myself curiously draw (but carefully assessing before deciding) to the new third party Waterston and his friends propose creating here in the US. Though I deeply despise many of the anti-life policies of our current crop of liberals and leftists, and was recently recruited to be the Communication Director for the Republican Party in one of our nation's captiol cities (something I once would have relished as a dream job), I have become so appalled at the "politics of character assassination and demonization" that I hope that both faith and reason might prevail in some effort -- perhaps that by Waterston and others -- to apply our "better angels" (without "selling out" and corruption and compromise) to the critical task of being biblical and honorable stewards of the lives and nation and resources God has seen fit to allow us to call the United States of America (and the world)!

I can only hope that we do not move forwrd thinking that all that is modern is necessarily advanced and new and improved and good! I don't know where Sam stands on this, but I have grown weary of hering the word "leadership" used to describe anyone who holds a position of power, whether in our home towns, state legislatures, national governments or world bodies. Just as "citizenship" defines the character of being a good citizen (citizenry is the group of people who are citizens), "leadership" refers to the characteristics related to being a good leader! I hope and pray that Sam is interested in building a future filled with men and women who manifest the characteristics of true, good, honorable and commendable leadership traits and virtues, not those who win a position of power to do more of the same garbage we've seen for decades from too many "leaders" only to pull down a lifelong pensio for a few years of poor "leadership" and perversion of position and power!

From the man who has so ably played Lincoln and the Lincol-esque Jack McCoy, I hope we can count on a vision of a nation led by a plethora of Lincolns and Washingtons and Adamses and Carters -- dare I say, whether Republican, Democrat, Independent or of Sam's new Unity Party (is that the name?), women and men of true faith, vision, compassion, courage and conviction who do not fear to do what is right without question or pause, not prefect or always right, but passionately committed to transformational leadership that declares, in both word and works, "I come not to be served but to serve!"

Thomas:

Sam Waterston is an Episcopalian. I share his Biblical perspective, that as Christians, we will be known by our actions, more than our words.

I read the article below and ask where is the "National Coverage" by the media if Muslims throughout the world are "Really" and "Publicly" speaking out against the violence by muslims?
Ocasionally I see it on the web but have never seen a headlines(Front page)on any National Print Media or seen national TV do a special giving Muslim leaders live speaking time to address the world. If Muslims are so loudly proclaiming peace and non-violence then why haven't they insisted on National and International coverage by all media? Is it fear of reprisal from their own people? If so then they should be speaking even louder so that those people who they say do not understand them can begin to feel more comfortable around them.

POLLING ANALYSIS
Americans, Islam Six Years After 9/11
Greg Smith » Muslims throughout the world denounce violence and value their religious freedom, while many Americans remain unfamiliar with the basic teachings of Islam.

POSTED July 23, 2007 1:45 AM

An acquantance of mine had a T-shirt reading:

"All tautologies are tautologies"

It's infinitely funny...

Arrogance is a perception. Mr. Waterston is a fine actor and speaker. I have met many brilliant folks, some were arrogant, but that did not detract from their brilliance. Stephen Hawking is a brilliant man but a completely reckless wheelchair driver; he almost flattened me in Harvard Yard once. He still deserves his accolades.

Folks, enough with the jib-jab already! Incoherent, repeated blather won't convert anyone.

Mr. Waterston, you are a welcome change from the serial felons and hypocrites we have been subjected to on this forum.

Thank you.

Mr. Waterston,
Thank you for sharing! Your thoughts were inspiring.
What I enjoyed most about your entry was the familiar peace I experienced as I read. It is that same peace I feel when I hear truth, or when I sincerely pray, or when I'm rocking my child to sleep. I don't know which denomination you claim, but I recognize the source of your faith and wish others in this world had your quiet steadiness. That's how I imagine Christ would be if he came and shared His knowledge in person today: quiet and steady.
God bless!
-Liz (LDS)

Faith is important to many people, but one must remember that Faith teaches us to Love one another, respect others of different followings. We all are created in his image.

To say you are of Faith may be against abortion, but killing innocent people and having innocent people killed in the name of Faith is going back to the Middle Ages and Inquisitions.

Who are we, if we don't cherish life in the same way as Virginia Tech College student who tragically lost theirs so young, as those young Iraq men, women and CHILDREN. What about the 3,200+ soldiers or the 20,000 disable now in the USA.

Does Faith turn a blind eye on greed or a hardened heart to Dick Cheney's daughter.

Where is our Faith? It is really on our sleeves, in our need for power, or our need for things like SUVs.

Faith is within and cannot be taken lightly by just words.

There seems to be confusion in this article about the difference between Faith and Trust. Faith is belief in the absence of evidence. Trust is belief based on evidence. I don't need faith to get out of bed in the morning; I trust that the day I am facing will not be significantly different from previous days, but there is a small chance it may be (for good or bad). I don't have faith in my wife, I trust her because I know her. I notice that some dictionary definitions are a little muddy sometimes with these definitions.

Sam, I remember you on that robot commercial. You were funny.

Mr. Waterson appears to have given these issues some thought but his thinking is flawed by superficial analysis and dogma. He states that faith is in our nature and we cannot live without it. This is clearly incorrect. To many educated humans faith is untenable because it insists on belief where there is no evidence and often insists on belief when evidence refutes that belief. Evolution, the age of the earth, miracles, homosexuality as a "sin", etc are all areas where religious dogma is refuted by evidence. Faith doesn't get us up in the morning- rationality does. It doesn't require faith to believe the sun will come up each day- it requires knowledge, science and careful study.

Mr. Waterson also says he prefers prayer and meditation to preaching. All evidence shows these are really the same phenomenon-- that is-- meditation. Meditation can focus the mind, relieve anxiety and stress, and people report it makes them more effective in their daily living. However, there is no evidence that it involves talking to supernatural beings and none that the supernatural beings actually reply! Meditation is undoubtedly more rational than preaching unsubstantiated dogma-- it isn't just quieter than listening to Pat Robertson.

Community is also an aspect of religion that many find very useful, but all too often religious groups are intolerant and hateful. My advice- drop the irrationality, dogma and hate of religion-- join Greenpeace or Kiwanis instead.

Finally the greatest lie of all- faith and truth. Faith is not a path to truth- it is a path away from truth. Scientific rationalism is a path to truth as we have seen over the the past couple of centuries. Faith is a path to suppression of knowledge, suppression of rights, a lack of questioning, acceptance of the status quo, to defining "us and them", to killing the infidel, to killing abortion doctors, to ostracizing gays, and on and on.

Mr. Waterson should follow his true instincts- meditate, join an organisation that aims to improve life for all humans, and move toward the rational, not the irrational.

What is all this crap? What does Sam think - we're in Sunday shool? Why is he talking about religion and faith - who cares what he thinks?

My neighbor, a card-carrying Methodist put it very simply - "Shucks, Steve, religion is kind of personal!"

Don --

OK.

Jonny,

You should apologize to Becky if you don't know what a tautology is yourself.

A tautology is not a statement which is true by its own definition; rather, a tautology is a statement that is necessarily true. It is the same definition for philosophy as it is for other disciples such as Math. It's true that it's fundamentally uninformative.

Circular references do not constitute statements that are necessarily true. All a circular reference does is render any statement making use of such a fallacy invalid, but not necessarily untrue. And of course, I mean invalid in the strictly logical sense of the word. Any form of self attestation is, of course, a circular reference; and, as I'm sure you know, self attestation is extremely common in everyday communication. Trust me!

And circular references are clearly not tautologies. Let me give you examples of both so you will understand for the future.

Tautology - "Either God exists or he does not exist!" I also like "Heads I win, tails you lose." Both statements are necessarily true and neither of the statements really tells you anything, unless of course you accept my coin tossing challenge.

Circular Reference - "Joe is honest because Joe says that he is honest." Or as you pointed out earlier. "The Bible is God's word because the Bible says that it is God's word."

While you did indeed form a nice circular reference out of your restatement of Becky's first line, the fact that you can form a circular reference says nothing about the truthfulness of the statement that the Bible is God's word.

The fact is, circular references exist in statements of fact. They will invalidate an argument if the argument depends in any way on the circular reference, but the parts of the circular reference may very well be true. Joe may very well be truthful.

But back to tautology. Even if Becky had offered some kind of tautological statement, your response would still puzzle the more logical thinkers because a tautology is a statement that is necessarily true. These kind of statements are neutral. They're just noise.

A better response to Becky would be in response to her parenthetical statement that "Man has scientifically proved it." But what a waste of time that would be. You'd be wasting your time trying to chop the arms off a straw man.

In all actuality, Becky was saying that she just believes it. I read between the lines that she is saying, please don't over think the issue of faith. You can reason anything to death of your not careful. And she's right!

Finally, you should be aware that there are many theists out there who are extremely rational thinkers, trained in all the right uses of logic, which have faith and believe in the existence of a God who created this world we live in, a God who actually wants to have a personal relationship with each of us.

I realize there are many skeptics out there who completely reject religion because of the extremes they have seen in the world. To people like YOYO, I say, Yes, I agree with you that many people of faith have resorted to violence just as many people of faith do not know how to form a valid logical argument.

But rejecting faith because some people who were of faith committed acts of violence isn’t the best response. The fact is, horrendous acts of violence have been committed by people of all religious and political flavors. The real issue is that on the spectrum of personalities in any group of any considerable size, there will be zealots who by their very disposition will resort to violence.

I applaud those of you who are atheists because of your abhorrence for the violence you see related to religion. Your heart is good and I want my heart to be just like that all the time, and not just related to people I like or who agree with me, but to even my enemies! If that's one of the driving forces behind atheism, then I'm on board. And so is, I would guess, most of the faithful from most of the world religions.

Our real fight should be against violence wherever it rears its ugly head. And, of course, the most productive place for us to start is in our own hearts.

Anywhooo...could go on forever, but I don't have the time. One final word. As you grow in your use of logic and your ability to wield the wonderful weapons of critically thinking, please don't use them to beat up on people. Whoever you are, atheist or theist, you should engage people respectfully. If you see that someone isn’t trained in the art of properly marshalling evidence for an argument, and if, even more importantly, you can perceive that they don’t intend to engage someone at this level, then by all means, don’t lord your incredible gift of logic over them in such a way as to make them look stupid.

Now if they do engage you in a debate using all the tools of critical thinking, then argue away!

Don --

In logic, a tautology is a statement which is true by its own definition, and is therefore fundamentally uninformative. Logical tautologies use circular reasoning within an argument or statement.

Circular reference IS a tautology. Heads you lose, tails you lose.

Sigh, I'll give it one more try.
Red is a color, so is Green, so is Blue.
Clear is not a color, it is an absence of color.

In this scheme something that is not red can be blue, green or clear.

Blue or Green are other colors that are not red, clear is not a color. Blue, Green, Red are "coloristic", clear is acoloristic.

Christianity, Islam, Judaism ... etc, these are competing theistic religions, the belief in a theistic religion is theism.

Atheism is not theism, that is all. It is not the presence of a competing "ism", it is the abscence of theism. The theistic religions are to color as atheism is to clear.

Why is this so hard for the thiests to understand? It seems incomprehensible to them, and I admit: it is incomprehensible to me why they don't get it.

I believe in my own ignorance - I don't know the purpose of existence, I can't comprehend the age of the universe or its size, I am amazed that we are conscious but have no idea (even as a neuroscientist) how this is possible.

Does my lack of knowledge make me unhappy? Not at all - mystery is OK to live with. What does make me very unhappy are attempts by all sorts of people who profess to KNOW the answers to everything. These people seem always to be the ones who make others suffer for disagreement.

Jonny

"Aside from the fact that the scientific method had not coalesced in the Bronze Age/Iron Age, the idea that the Hebrew/Christian texts were NOT peer-reviewed is nonsense. MANY supernaturalists peer-reviewed the texts and found them wanting. The Emperors Constantine and Justinian, however, put paid to criticism. It's easy to spread a religion in an empire, especially if heresy earned you a prolonged and hideous death."

Who are the MANY you cite. There was a lot of peer review done prior to Justinian and Constantine and the basic content of the Bible was formed long before them. The Gnostic documents were inconsistent with the general beliefs and were not widely accepted. If you read any of the Gnostic documents you would find them far less important and having less real content than many authors has stated just to sell books. Just as the recent film on the Tomb of Jesus has used limited information and a lot of hypothesis to sell a book and film that has little basis of fact.

Jonny

"Let's see the PEER REVIEW studies of Hunter and Stovall. WITHIN the legitimate scientific community, of course, and NOT ID/Creationist fronts."

Maybe you need to read and think for yourself. Of course there are constant changes in thinking and much scientific belief/theories change all the time. Who has taken a poll of the scientific community to determine what the scientific community believes. Just because one community declares one view does not make it so. And, the majority has often been wrong. Or, do you and some scientists just close their minds to other possibilities - as you have already done by your treatise above. Or, humor me and read from what other scientists have to say - if you can tolerate an opposing view without prejudice.

Just where did matter come from? Magic from your view - God from mine. Aethism is your religion - Christianity is mine. There are many facts to support Evolution and Christianity. Darwin relied on religious assumptions which cannot be proved to explain his Theory. Fossil evidence is very spotty - very large gaps exist and are explained away with beliefs not facts.

What DOES Mr W believe in? Does Anyone Know?

Mr. W is not a player. To be a player you have to take sides. Neutrality is for wimps and reporters like Mr. W. I have more respect for a die hard atheists or Islamist than I do for Mr. W. We learn nothing from him because he has no convictions. An atheists has faith in something like science or evolution and he will tell you so. A Buddhist will tell you what he has faith in. Mr. W is a disappointment for most of us: atheist, Christian, or Muslim. Whatever Mr. W!

The comments that follow surely show why Mr. Waterson refrains from dinner table discussion of religion and politics. what else is there to say.

Correction,
Portrait of Dr.Gachet of Van Gogh was sold for 82.5 Million US Dollars in 1990.

So, have faith because (1) it's a mystery, and (2) it is in our nature. Does Sam notice that (1) contradicts (2)? Aside from that, each on its own is a bad argument.

Argument (1) is an argument for faith in anything, animal spirits, Heavens Gate, whatever. Yet all those faith beliefs cannot be true, for they are inconsistent with each other. They can, however, all be false. So, an argument for believing in everything proves nothing.

Argument(2)has a neurological basis. We are predisposed to seeing the tiger in the bush that is not there, lest we miss the tiger that is there. But knowing that we have a hard wired bias in our perception and conception of the world ought to UNDERMINE faith, not support it. It takes reason to overcome the bias and to see the world as it is. Faith embraces the con.

The topic relates to keeping silent about your religion. As noted previously, this in no longer possible with crazy, illogical, "koranic" Muslims running about trying to kill as many non-believers as possible.

Jihadist, a liberal Muslim, never speaks (as noted in her comments above) about the real issue of Islam, i.e. the founder of her religion, Mohammed, was an illiterate, hallucinating Arab who had embellishing/hallucinating scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the Koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

Jihadist, we await your words of wisdom on the real issue.

I've met this man once, Sam Waterston. He struck me as the most arrogant SOB I have ever encountered! It's been years since we met. However, I have repeatedly recalled his ugly demeanor. His essay sheds some light:

"My faith urges me to spread the good news, by example ... My nature readily gets the example part."

Arrogance and hypocrisy.

His remarks suggests he believes he has to do no work setting a good example. He's born perfect!

This guy's "nature" is the nature of a self-deluding hypocrite.

I've met this man once, Sam Waterston. He struck me as the most arrogant SOB I have ever encountered! It's been years since we met. However, I have repeatedly recalled his ugly demeanor. His essay sheds some light:

"My faith urges me to spread the good news, by example ... My nature readily gets the example part."

Arrogance and hypocrisy.

His remarks suggests he believes he has to do no work setting a good example. He's born perfect!

This guy's "nature" is the nature of a self-deluding hypocrite.

Dear Jihadist,

Portrait of Dr.Gachet of Van Gogh was sold for 82.5 US Dollars in 1990.

CDOs bond(collateralized Debt Obligation) very critical to be sold.Please,be careful.

. 4But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people.

Final Instructions and Greetings
12When I send Artem

"You understand what a tautology is, now Becky?"

The real question, Jonny, is do you understand what a tautology is? I think what you were really aiming for was a circular reference. Of course, maybe I'm wrong. Hey let's flip a coin for it. Heads I win, Tails you lose!

Jihadist --

"I have to play my role, my part here, as an irrational, illogical believer who cannot follow an argument or make any sense."

Rush Limbaugh is a repulsive bigot.

Aw, COME ON! He's an ENTERTAINER! That's what he's PAID TO DO! Ain'tcha got no sensa HUMOR??

I've seen this dog sh*t. I've seen it, smelled it, gotten it on my shoe. It is dogsh*t. Sell it to a sucker.

milkandhoney --

"In ancient time, might have said the same thing about The Bible... ;)"

Aside from the fact that the scientific method had not coalesced in the Bronze Age/Iron Age, the idea that the Hebrew/Christian texts were NOT peer-reviewed is nonsense. MANY supernaturalists peer-reviewed the texts and found them wanting. The Emperors Constantine and Justinian, however, put paid to criticism. It's easy to spread a religion in an empire, especially if heresy earned you a prolonged and hideous death.

Jonny,

"A working theory is supported by a preponderance of evidence, with hypotheses PUBLISHED, TESTED and PEER-REVIEWED."

In ancient time, might have said the same thing about The Bible... ;)

Dear Philosophy 101 / Womyn's Studies:

"Who in their right mind believes that Noah’s Ark is a true story or that Creationism offers insights into anything? Way too many Americans do for sure. BTW The 10 Commandments are basically wicked and misogynist. What’s the deal with a jealous boyfriend god that threatens damnation and hellfire if you dare check out another god? Isn’t that the modus of ex-lovers who stalk, assault and murder?"

WOW. Funny... people could be saying the same thing 2000 years from now if we're all buried under. Did you ever consider that?

Wicked and misogynist?! Honoring your mother? Not trying to take your neighbor's wife? You're right. SO RIGHT. (insert rotating my index finger next to my ear, the international sign for "you're a loony" here)

"intellectual freedom seem to be lazy, unwilling or perhaps too fearful to take the leap towards enlightenment"

OMG I'm a brain in a vat!

Your wit is on par with one of those snarky "How to Get Over Him" books. So, please. Spare us.

-A Female.

Gene --

"may be explained by divine intervention"

Anything may be EXPLAINED by divine intervention. Anything may be EXPLAINED by anything at all. HooDoos done it.

A working theory is supported by a preponderance of evidence, with hypotheses PUBLISHED, TESTED and PEER-REVIEWED.

Sorry, but that's how science works. As opposed to faith.

Let's see the PEER REVIEW studies of Hunter and Stovall. WITHIN the legitimate scientific community, of course, and NOT ID/Creationist fronts.

Jonny :)

Thanks for the compliments on my pretzel logic - from Steely Dan's album?

I have to play my role, my part here, as an irrational, illogical believer who cannot follow an argument or make any sense. Ah just loved being called stupid. Nothing to lose eh?

Actually, all On Faith threads are like this - everyone talking past each other mostly. We all come from our pre-conceived notions and beliefs.

You are not the first to want to scream. Of course there are artists and scientists without any beliefs in God. Of course there are also artists and scientists who believe in God.

Patience my friend. Believers do read Dawkins and Harris and Hitchens and Sagan etc too. Of them all, I rate Hitchens the lowest as he is a mere polemicist. I have more respect for Dawkins and Sagan, and especially Sagan for his sense of wonderment that anyone, believers or non-believers, can relate too.

Best regards

J

"Would that it were so."

Those that don't aren't Christian, Jonny. I just ask that people refrain from badmouthing a whole group of people because of a bunch of intolerant, selfish, fearful wing-nuts.

"Now, if he claimed that God talked BACK ...."

For him, he did which is why he kept talking. I realize you think it's funny but gaining a sense of spirituality is just as profound as losing someone close to you, having a child, almost dying, etc. It's unique to the individual, the feeling can't always be explained.

I'm just saying your experience is different than mine (and others) and we can't convince each other the other is wrong. There is no wrong and there is no right, we just have our experiences and nobody is less either way.

To believe in God is not crazy. I mean, most of us have never been in a space shuttle, we only see the universe from a limited view, can only gain belief of it from someone else's experience, dark matter holds everything together but it's -hypothetical-. We believe in so much -out there- but haven't experienced it. We believe in artist's renderings of black holes and planets. Someone tells us "I figured this out with this mathematical formula and X is approximately X BILLIONS years old" - most people can't understand the equation but they'll -believe- it.

Jonny - you said
"Yes, there are serious debates within the general scientific community about how evolution takes place... It is now an accepted working scientific theory involving all aspects of scientific inquiry. You DO understand what a working theory is in science, do you not?"

I fully understand the Theory of Evolution as a theory that is still in the works. But then you mention that it is an accepted theory -- sounds as if you are also calling it fact and a basis for disproving the existance of a higher being as did Darwin based on his view fo what God would be if there was a God. The issue is ignoring facts which contradict Darwin's theory and the vast majority of Darwinists act as if evolution is a fact without any outside intervention. Yet, there were many species created in a very short period of time that is still unexplained and runs counter to the Theory. Read a little bit and get some counter views written by scientists such as Hunter as I mentioned before and interviews by Lee Stovall which included many respected scientists -- many of the scientists do not accept the Theory. Do you accept all of Darwin's premises - including his disproof of God based on his definition of God and then his discussion that God couldn't exist because he doesn't fit into Darwin's view of God. That was the issue being addressed. I believe that there are elements of the Theory of Evolution that are ligitimate, but not to the extent implied by you. There are instances where the Theory has been proven to be lacking and may be explained by divine intervention which you may find hard to accept because of your bias as an aethist.

G'night, YoYo. But Jihadist, despite his appreciation for bop, is STILL an obfuscationist.

Jonny
you've had a busy day beating off the Christians.
Take a break.You've done a great job,and are
quite an asset to these weird threads,I'm sure
Jihadist would agree.
Glad you dig those boppers Jihad.
Cheers...and good night.

Is anyone else tired of trying to communicate with those who cannot/will not follow an argument?

I give my discussion with Jihadist as an example. I answered a question from Julian which queried whether I could imagine a great poet or musician without faith. I answered that I could, and gave a list of creative people who did not indulge in magical thinking. I made NO claims as to the value or longevity of their work.

Ah, but Jihadist INVENTED such claims, in order that he might shoot them down. He also insisted that NUMBERS resulted in validity, re the Bible. I suggested that Michael Jackson's outselling of classic composers (yes, the recording industry DOES track such numbers) did not prove anything about quality. Jihadist immediately twisted this as somehow an endorsement of Jackson over Bach.

Anybody wanna SCREAM yet? Look, this pretzel logic prevails among anti-rationalists. It's old stuff. But at long last I cannot fault Dawkins or Harris for their blasts. SOMEBODY needs to call stupid STUPID.

Jonny

Fun poking you around a bit. Never seen you before here. And testy too. Not so good. All a believer got to say to you is - "You will go to hell", and then you'll really be berserk :)

As for cultural criticism, I have no idea what I am talking about on western culture and civilisation as I am not a westerner.

And Yoyo:)

Thanks for reminding me on Thelonius Monk, Coltrane and Bird. Cool cats, cool jazz indeed.

And ah yes, Debussy and Ravel. Oh that sensous ""Bolero" by Ravel. As performed by Torville and Dean, makes one think differently about ice-skating and Ravel.

And yes, Vivaldi and Handel and Telemann too. Four Seasons, Water Music, Fireworks Music. And yes, yes, yes, the Rolling Stones - including their Sympathy for the Devil too.

How did that Stones' song go - when I die, I'll go to heaven cos I've spent my time in hell?

Best regards
J

It seems that most of the people commenting here are expressing signs of desperation as they defend superstition. It really is tragic and frankly a frustrating aspect of existence in America that Americans who have every opportunity for intellectual freedom seem to be lazy, unwilling or perhaps too fearful to take the leap towards enlightenment preferring to embrace the claptrap that emanates from the superstition peddlers, circus huckster clerics. Who in their right mind believes that Noah’s Ark is a true story or that Creationism offers insights into anything? Way too many Americans do for sure. BTW The 10 Commandments are basically wicked and misogynist. What’s the deal with a jealous boyfriend god that threatens damnation and hellfire if you dare check out another god? Isn’t that the modus of ex-lovers who stalk, assault and murder?

Yes of course there is no difference between Astrology, I Ching, crystal ball gazing, Judaism, Christianity or Islam etc. Religion is by definition the practice of myth, magic and superstition. Why we don’t as people seeking the common good take action and indict clerics for marketing something that isn’t proven is beyond me. Superstition peddlers and the whacky beliefs they continue to infect the gullible with deserve ridicule and criticizing for deluding the emotionally immature. When the pope/king dresses up like a Las Vegas show girl and parades on stage chanting magic words while waving a wand a la Harry Potter everyone really should break out in laughter yet thanks to the emotional bullying from childhood religious conditioning most can only genuflect as feudal serfs before a monarch. How crazy is that?

George W. Bush prayed and he prayed and he showed all the
"faithiness" one could possibly ask of an outwardly pietistic, jellified, sanctimonious simpleton. Then he went out got an executive order that legitimized torture for the first time in American history. Then he bombed and strafed the bejeezus out of Iraq and he's still at it. Maybe half a million dead, millions in flight, hundreds of billions down the drain, Pandora's Box wide open in the Middle East, signs of American decline everywhere, the nation distracted from real problems and real solutions Is that what Jesus would have really advised Bush to do? Sorry Mr. Actor. Faith doesn't make Truth available, at least in Bush's case. It simply confirms and reinforces a kind of vulgar, obscurantist dogmatism and double-talk, which becomes very costly when trying to run a country or conduct international affairs. And your silence on Bush and Faith isn't mystical or ineffable or blessed. It's just a cop out.

Jihadist --

Thanks for the cultural criticism. I'll take it for what it's worth. Now,

"Come on, atheists are human and fallible, have assumptions and presumptions, don't know or understand everything, and are in need of human recogition too for their work too."

Well, who in hell said they WEREN'T? You're answering an argument that wasn't made.

"If you truly are Christian, you accept ALL people and leave the judgment up to God."

Would that it were so.

"JONNY: You can take Marlon Brando off the list. He said in an interview that he regularly talked to God when he was on his island, saying that for all he accomplished, the awards, everything, in the big scheme of things, none of it mattered. He's right."

Hey, OK with me. People change. Now, if he claimed that God talked BACK ....

Hello Jonny:)

I'm a believer. Whoever said I am rational? I am happily moronic, idiotic, delusional as pointed out by many atheists.

So, thank you for giving me a basic lesson on rational thinking. One can be rational but not right, no? One can be logical but not sound, no?

And how can you be absolutely certain Michael Jackson has outsold Beethoven, Bach and Mozart combined over the years in recording by various people? Is anyone still buying Jackson's Greatest Hits?

Jaqueline Susann's "Valley of the Dolls" outsold the Bible in the sixties in the US once. Not anymore.

Ahh... "creativity" being possible without "magical" thinking. It's imagination for Gene Roddenbery to create the utopia of Star Trek. For Arthur C Clarke to write his sci-fis and Stanley Kubrick to put one on screen as "A Space Odyssey : 2001."

HP Lovecraft creative and original? He stole all ideas of the supernatural from some beliefs. I can go on for all the atheists who are creative artists you listed on the source of their "imagination" and "original" work, but... as you know, originality is the ability to hide your source.

Anyone who paid $45 million for a painting, and by a disturbed mind, never mind he is Van Goth, is rather indulgent. Money perhaps better spent on victims of natural disasters, say. And poor Van Goth, like all artists, don't get to see the money his paintings are sold at now, except the fellow who got it for $45 million without doing anything.

But of course, arts are the indulgence of the rich. Even atheists who are atheists are dependent on recognition, acceptance of their works as well as patronage, by believers who comprise the majority.

The athiest market is still too small and cannot possibly support say, William Shatner and Gene Roddenberry in Star Trek series for example.

Come on, atheists are human and fallible, have assumptions and presumptions, don't know or understand everything, and are in need of human recogition too for their work too.

Best regards
J

I believe in God. I believe in Jesus Christ. I believe in the 10 Commandments.

However, I also believe 99% of those who call themselves Christians are not worthy to do so.

I do not call myself a Christian. I don't believe salvation is found through Jesus, and from what I've read, mistranslations from Hebrew to English have inaccurately given him the title of "Messiah"...

To those who are anti-Christianity, in the big scheme of things, Christianity is basic. Treat others as you would like to be treated. Be tolerant. Be good to one another. Lead by example. Do good works. Be humble. It's very easy.

What it is not and has been used as is a mask for intolerance, xenophobia, patriotism, pride, and bigotry.

Please understand that those who call themselves Christians and do not lead by example are NOT Christians. They are hypocrites.

Religion and faith cannot be blamed for people's actions. To do so is like blaming a gun for a shooting instead of the person.

You cannot be Christian and be in support of a war. You cannot be Christian and think it is okay to kill an abortion doctor. You cannot be Christian and feel that because someone's sexual preference is different than yours, they are somehow less of a human being.

If you truly are Christian, you accept ALL people and leave the judgment up to God.

JONNY: You can take Marlon Brando off the list. He said in an interview that he regularly talked to God when he was on his island, saying that for all he accomplished, the awards, everything, in the big scheme of things, none of it mattered. He's right.

Becky --

"God said it (the Bible)"

The Bible CLAIMS that God said it. Sez who? God. Where? In the Bible. Who sez the Bible has any validity? God. Where did he say that? In the Bible. Who says ...

You understand what a tautology is, now Becky?

Anonymous:

Religious have not seriously considered the arguments against religion or they would not believe anymore. all religions posit ridiculous beliefs that no reasonable person who was not raised in that faith could possibly accept. here’s the Aztec creation myth (below). Does any reader find this story credible? if you looked at christianity or islam, etc. from an unbiased perspective, they would seem just as ludicrous as the aztec stories.

The mother of the Aztec creation story was called Coatlique (the Lady of the Skirt of Snakes). She was created in the image of the unknown, decorated with skulls, snakes, and lacerated hands. There are no cracks in her body and she is a perfect monolith (a totality of intensity and self-containment, yet her features were square and decapitated).

Coatlique was first impregnated by an obsidian knife and gave birth to Coyolxanuhqui, goddess of the moon, and to a group of male offspring, who became the stars. Then one day Coatlique found a ball of feathers, which she tucked into her bosom. When she looked for it later, it was gone, at which time she realized that she was again pregnant. Her children, the moon and stars did not believe her story. Ashamed of their mother, they resolved to kill her. A goddess could only give birth once, to the original litter of divinity and no more. During the time that they were plotting her demise, Coatlique gave birth to the fiery god of war, Huitzilopochtli. With the help of a fire serpent, he destroyed his brothers and sister, murdering them in a rage. He beheaded Coyolxauhqui and threw her body into a deep gorge in a mountain, where it lies dismembered forever. The natural cosmos of the Indians was born of catastrophe. The heavens literally crumbled to pieces. The earth mother fell and was fertilized, while her children were torn apart by fratricide and then scattered and disjointed throughout the universe

YoYo --

Faith and magical thinking are not necessarily dangerous in and of themselves, I would hope, but it does seem that they alomost inevitably result in extremist irrationality, does it not?

And not simply supernaturalist faith, but personality cult faith (dictators), systemic faith (communism, capitalism, Divine Right of Kings), dogmatic faith, etc., etc.

Rationalist thought, although flawed as any human endeavor is, at least provides for a healthy skepticism. I submit that the rationalist thinkers of the Age of Reason, including our own founding fathers, made a valiant attempt to provide us with a blueprint for human progress. Take nothing for granted. Take nothing as Gospel. Think.

Otherwise, you end as a poor dupe, clutching your boxcutter as the plane speeds to oblivion.

God said it(The Bible).
It believe it(Man has scientifically proved it).
And That's That.

KISS
Keep
It
Simple
Stupid

Jihadist
Give me Bach! But also Thelonius Monk,Coltrane
and Bird.Give me Debussy and Ravel.
Give me also Vivaldi and Handel and Telemann too.
Leave a little room for the Rolling Stones.

Gene --

"but even those who believe in evolution as the sole foundation of life"

A complete misstatement of evolutionary theory. Evolutionary theory in no way makes any claims about the "foundation of life." No wonder you're confused.

Yes, there are serious debates within the general scientific community about how evolution takes place. No, there are no serious debates within the scientific community that it DOES take place. It is now an accepted working scientific theory involving all aspects of scientific inquiry. You DO understand what a working theory is in science, do you not?

Jonny;

Before 9/11 religion didn't matter much to me.
9/11 changed all that.
I blame religion, and I will speak out against it
every chance I get. As Sam Harris says,
religion had a free ride up to 9/11...but now we have to get real.
I do believe religious indoctrination overcomes
reason,intelligence and education.
The suicide bombers had college degrees,some had PHD's.
In last weekends botched attacks in London and Glasgow,
two of the terrorists were medical doctors.
It's incredible to me that highly educated men can be so stupid.
But of course,they were not
stupid. just religious,
and dying to get to Heaven.

Jihadist --

"after declaring and or believing God is dead, there is no God, God is a delusion, God is not great and such."

Don't put words in people's mouths. The rational mind knows very well that you can't prove a negative and therefore makes no positive claims such as, "There is no God." Besides, such a proclamation is silly, rather like proclaiming, "There are no invisible flying feathered green donkeys that poop gold bricks." Here is how it works:

Supernaturalist: "The supernatural EXISTS!"
Atheist/rational freethinker: "Gee, I don't believe YOU, Jack."

Simple as that.

"Alas, more people read and know the Bible than all the collected works of atheists you listed and did not."

So what? If a billion people proclaim a silly thing, it is still a silly thing. Michael Jackson has outsold Beethoven, Bach and Mozart combined. Is that proof of value?

"Do anyone actually care now for the works of, say Rodney Dangerfield or Frank Zappa except for those into their cult worshipping?"

And so you miss the point. The point was that creativity is indeed possible without magical thinking. How about Van Gogh? ONE of his paintings sold for $45 million at auction. Within the past ten years. And he was mentally ill. Just what, precisely, does all that "prove?" Hmm?

Thank you, Mr. Waterson. I believe in the the mystery of faith. I believe in stillness to learn.

It amazes me that so many can dismiss the bleief of others with a few selected quotes of scientists or other intellectuals. There are many scientists and intellectuals who also believe. Take your choice but do not call people ignorant for something you have not experiened. Some media reported that 70+% believed the DaVinci Code and yet the very first statement of the book was totally false and even the person who faked the documents to support the Priory of Scion has admitted they were fake. These same people ignor the facts of science. Evolution appears to exist but in limited terms, but even those who believe in evolution as the sole foundation of life ignor science where there were major unexplained events which contridict evolution having created all species. Even the fossil evidence is full of holes. Darwin had to create his own definition of God and then say God could not exist because God didn't fit his definition. Sound like science -- not hardly. Yet many blindly believe science has proven evolution. Suggest a few readings from Cornelius Hunter and Lee Stovall -- these are just a couple of works for consideration.
Yes, I believe in Jesus Christ and not because of any fear or other convenient reasons, but because of my personal experiences. Christ gave us a number of examples on how to live our lives and none was focused on being violent towards other religions or non-believers. I respect anyone's right to believe as he/she chooses. But unlike many who believe that my personal beliefs should be held internal as some political candidates do, I believe a real Christian has no problem expressing his/her belief privately or publicly without apology, just as anyone else may chose to express themselves.

Henry James --

Yes, it is annoying to see such multiple posts, but in all fairness, it's rather easy on this site to mistakenly think that your post has not posted, especially if you're new to it.

I'd be inclined to cut'em a break, at least until repeated offenses show otherwise. But since I'm a dirty atheist utterly lacking in moral sense, nobody's bound by what I'd do. ;)

Jonny :)

Thanks for the list of atheists.

We know for certain is that - all are dead or going to be dead and gone after declaring and or believing God is dead, there is no God, God is a delusion, God is not great and such.

Alas, God is still believed in by many. Alas, more people read and know the Bible than all the collected works of atheists you listed and did not.

Do anyone actually care now for the works of, say Rodney Dangerfield or Frank Zappa except for those into their cult worshipping?

Ummmm...where can I buy a mint condition vynyl recording of Frank Zappa's "Safe as Milk" that changed mankind and music in the world and is one of the key contributors of western civilisation and culture as we know it today?

I've outgrown Zappa and Joel and Lennon et al. Give me Beethoven. Give me Bach. Give me Mozart.

Awinda, Bill, Jenny

WHAT IN DAD-BLAME IS WRONG WITH YOU!!!!!!!!

posting your posts OVER AND OVER>

that is totally inconsiderate and idiotic.

Get off the site if you are going to pollute in that way.

You are sociopaths.

Well, certainly my faith in Pandeism is still faith, but faith informed by logic and in tune with science -- not that I'm suggesting your faith is counter to science, but where many faiths require their adherents to either apologize for some element of mythology as a parable, or to deny science, Pandeism places its faith in science itself.... whatever scientific inquiry reveals to us to be the mechanism of the workings of the Universe, so Pandeism teaches is the mechanism God has used to work the Universe....

YoYo --

Oh, I missed a LOT of folks. I just listed some people in the arts in response to Julian's rather benighted question.

Millennium upon millennium of being harangued by the poo-bahs of supernaturalist cults that faith is more important than breathing, when in fact it is only important (crucial, really) to supernaturalist cults, has had the unfortunate effect of inculcating society with the idea that magical thinking is a GOOD thing.

As you and others have pointed out, it ain't necessarily so.

Yes I belive 100% in a heaven.
the bible says:Let not your heart be trouble:ye belive belive in God,belive also in me.in my Father house are many mansions:if it were not so,I would have told you so,I go to prepare a place for you,And If I go and prepare a place for you,I will come,and receive you unto myself:that where I am there ye may be also.john 14.
but not anyboby will enter in,just those that have recive God's son,Jesus.
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men,him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.But whosover shall deny me before men.him will I also deny before my father which is in heaven.

Yes I belive 100% in a heaven.
the bible says:Let not your heart be trouble:ye belive belive in God,belive also in me.in my Father house are many mansions:if it were not so,I would have told you so,I go to prepare a place for you,And If I go and prepare a place for you,I will come,and receive you unto myself:that where I am there ye may be also.john 14.
but not anyboby will enter in,just those that have recive God's son,Jesus.
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men,him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.But whosover shall deny me before men.him will I also deny before my father which is in heaven.

Yes I belive 100% in a heaven.
the bible says:Let not your heart be trouble:ye belive belive in God,belive also in me.in my Father house are many mansions:if it were not so,I would have told you so,I go to prepare a place for you,And If I go and prepare a place for you,I will come,and receive you unto myself:that where I am there ye may be also.john 14.
but not anyboby will enter in,just those that have recive God's son,Jesus.
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men,him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.But whosover shall deny me before men.him will I also deny before my father which is in heaven.

Yes I belive 100% in a heaven.
the bible says:Let not your heart be trouble:ye belive belive in God,belive also in me.in my Father house are many mansions:if it were not so,I would have told you so,I go to prepare a place for you,And If I go and prepare a place for you,I will come,and receive you unto myself:that where I am there ye may be also.john 14.
but not anyboby will enter in,just those that have recive God's son,Jesus.
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men,him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.But whosover shall deny me before men.him will I also deny before my father which is in heaven.

Jonny;
Loved your post
Gotta copy/paste all those sensible peoples' names.
You missed Russell,and "The Three Atheists",
Dawkins,Hitchins and Sam Harris,and ACGrayling,
and Steven Pinker,and of course the brilliant
astronomer Carl Sagan.

Jesus is dead.Lets face it.
We do not live in a supernatural world.
Real life is not a Hollywood movie.
Miracles do not actually happen.
Religion has nothing to do with Reality.

If you get them young enough,children
can be made to believe anything.
Nothing is so preposterous that a child
cannot be made to believe it.
Its hard to get them ever to disbelieve
once they've been indoctrinated.
Right now,somewhere out there,children are
being coached to become everlastingly
demented little Christians,who will grow up
unable to distinguish between the real and the supernatural.
And in the middle east,children are being
turned into suicide bombers for Allah.
In a perfect world,Religion would not exist.

Julian --

"Can you imagine a great poet or musician without faith?"

Of course. Here is just a partial list of creative people who have pursued their muses without need of magical thinking:

Robert Frost, Vincent Van Gogh, Ernest Hemingway, Arthur C. Clarke, Dave Matthews, Billy Joel, George Carlin, Voltaire, Mark Twain, Frank Zappa, Gene Roddenberry, George Bernard Shaw, George Burns, Groucho Marx, W.C. Fields, Leo Tolstoy, Kurt Vonnegut, James Joyce, Isaac Asimov, John Lennon, Frank Lloyd Wright, Alfred Hitchcock, Irving Berlin, George Orwell, Robert Heinlein, Oscar Wilde, Percy Bysshe Shelley, Christopher Marlowe, Noel Coward, Charlie Chaplin, H.P. Lovecraft, Woody Allen, Gillian Anderson, Marlon Brando, Dick Cavett, Jean Luc Godard, John Sayles, Jodie Foster, Mira Sorvino, Simone de Beauvoir, Gore Vidal, William Shatner, Stanley Kubrick, Ursula K. LeGuin, Ian McKellen, Burt Lancaster, Katharine Hepburn, Christopher Reeve, Max von Sydow, Ingmar Bergman, Rodney Dangerfield, Angelina Jolie, Bruce Lee, Diane Keaton, Arthur Rubenstein ....

Faith, touted by supernaturalist cults as a requirement for every human endeavor, is actually only a requirement for supernaturalist beliefs. For anything else, it is an elective.

He never carries guns or make bombs. He doesn't own people. You can't buy him, own him, or control him. You have nothing to give him. He have no religion to give you. No secret words, ritual, magic potions.......... All he asks is that you come and learn of him. He can give you a foundation for your faith--not a jumble of words that seem to talk about many things but say very little.

One caution. If you leave your preconceptions, anger, and hate behind and come with an open heart and mind, you may discover real Truth. This is not my truth, Hollywoods' truth, or America's truth.

If you really want to have peace, love, and joy, talk to the Creator. Jesus invites all to come and learn of him. If he doesn't exist, you lose nothing but a little time. Can you be an honest scholar and investigate genuinely and honestly without prejudice before coming to a conclusion upon which you base your eternity?

He never carries guns or make bombs. He doesn't own people. You can't buy him, own him, or control him. You have nothing to give him. He have no religion to give you. No secret words, ritual, magic potions.......... All he asks is that you come and learn of him. He can give you a foundation for your faith--not a jumble of words that seem to talk about many things but say very little.

One caution. If you leave your preconceptions, anger, and hate behind and come with an open heart and mind, you may discover real Truth. This is not my truth, Hollywoods' truth, or America's truth.

If you really want to have peace, love, and joy, talk to the Creator. Jesus invites all to come and learn of him. If he doesn't exist, you lose nothing but a little time. Can you be an honest scholar and investigate genuinely and honestly without prejudice before coming to a conclusion upon which you base your eternity?

If all of our prayers were answered, what kind of God would we have? When prayers are answered or "unanswered" as we think, maybe they are answered just not in how we want them to be answered. Prayer is not about giving us everything that we want. We have to remember, it is not about what we want or our plans, but it is His plans, the Creator's plans.
"God's silences are His answeres. If we only take as answers those that are visalbe to our senses, we are in a very elementary condition of grace."~ Oswald Chambers.

If all of our prayers were answered, what kind of God would we have? When prayers are answered or "unanswered" as we think, maybe they are answered just not in how we want them to be answered. Prayer is not about giving us everything that we want. We have to remember, it is not about what we want or our plans, but it is His plans, the Creator's plans.
"God's silences are His answeres. If we only take as answers those that are visalbe to our senses, we are in a very elementary condition of grace."~ Oswald Chambers.

Yes, Sam, there IS a Websters! Wow...has it occured to any of you that Mr. Waterston is simply being concise and to the point, as any good writer should? I suggest everyone actually read and attempt to refrain from overthinking his reponse to the question posed. Put aside the intolerant criticism, and go back to the English language. One could not ask for a more open minded, simply put, yet insightful answer than that which Mr. W. has written. Great use of the K.I.S.S. method. (or maybe I'm just getting to old and cranky for all this nonsense;P )

Brenda Merchant

The greatest faith I ever saw,was on 9/11,when 19 college educated, devoutly religious young men,some with PHD's,flew those planes into the World Trade Center,taking thousands of lives with them.
No greater Faith have I ever seen.And I hope I never see such Faith again.
Faith is mindless and stupid and dangerous.
it bypasses the brain,and puts reason on hold.
Where do you think the 9/11 bombers are today?
They had faith in a one way ticket to paradise as the reward for destroying thousands of infidels.
Are they in Paradise?
Of course not.But the point is,they BELIEVED.
Now they are dust.

People believe in Religion or God because it is a placeholder for so many things that we don't know the answer for. Science and Religion are complementary or alternatively in a zero sum game. The more Science is able to explain the less the belief of mankind in organized religion or dogma. People will always believe in something as long as Science can't explain all the things that agitate the human mind.

Awinda

Not true!
Just last year,the New York Times published a report that cost several millions of dollars which tested intercessory prayer and concluded that prayer made no difference except perhaps some psychological benefit to the person praying.
Over the years...many experiments of prayer have all come to the same conclusion.
More importantly,down through the ages,prayer has been tried in many ways.
When kings were on their deathbeds,the population was sometimes required by Bishops and priests,to pray together in different churches at certain appointed times,in the belief that masses of believers all praying at the same time would make a difference.
When wars were fought,populations would again all pray en- masse,in order to win the war.
Needless to say,wars were still lost,and kings always died.
Now.If prayer worked,we wouldn't be debating it.
If it worked then nobody would be questioning it.
It would be a know fact.But it is not.It is at best debatable.But in truth,it's hogwash.

"Faith is the assured expectation of things of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld" Hebrews 11:1

Faith is not blind it is based on evidence. We have faith in a Creator because of what is created. We have faith in what He can do because of what we have seen Him do and of the eyewitness accounts in the scriptures.

Such Jealousy. Such Jealousy. such jealousy, threw and threw.
Such jealousy(s). Satan lurks among them [not US] , yet Satanic helpers think they are not!

Wow, We see thee in all inequitiues above& beyond what thou has done!!

Super Stupid People you have become!

Faith is not simply irrational.It is also the most dangerous force out there.
It is based on ancient myths invented by our totally
confused and fearful ancestors,who had no understanding of the world that they found themselves living in.
The distinction between reality and unreality was not clear to them,and like children they had no option than to believe that there must be someone
responsible for all this.
But that was then.This is now,and we know better.
As Bertrand Russell has said,FEAR was the motivation.
Fear of life,fear of defeat,and fear of death.
And the desire to have a big brother figure to turn to for comfort and security.
The supernatural does not exist.Neither do Gods.

Faith is the evidence of things hoped for and the substance of things not seen. If you already have that thing ...whatever you want ... there is no need to hope for it. If you have no way to get it except hope, then you are putting your faith in something besides yourself to produce this thing you want so badly. Yes I have had faith while praying for a sick child,whom everyone gave no hope to live, a friend who was given 3 months to live ...no hope of getting better. The doctors could do no more ....so I started asking a higher power to help them live and believing He would answer my faith in Him.. they miraclously revived. I didn't need faith in these matters anymore because the substance was seen in these being healed. Even reports in Readers Digest taken by scientists say people that were sick and received prayer were more likely to heal faster than those without it. Yes there has been times in my life I had to believe for groceries and money for things needed I could not achieve on my own and it always came...I believe.... from having faith in a power that could achieve what I could not.

Faith is the evidence of things hoped for and the substance of things not seen. If you already have that thing ...whatever you want ... there is no need to hope for it. If you have no way to get it except hope, then you are putting your faith in something besides yourself to produce this thing you want so badly. Yes I have had faith while praying for a sick child,whom everyone gave no hope to live, a friend who was given 3 months to live ...no hope of getting better. The doctors could do no more ....so I started asking a higher power to help them live and believing He would answer my faith in Him.. they miraclously revived. I didn't need faith in these matters anymore because the substance was seen in these being healed. Even reports in Readers Digest taken by scientists say people that were sick and received prayer were more likely to heal faster than those without it. Yes there has been times in my life I had to believe for groceries and money for things needed I could not achieve on my own and it always came...I believe.... from having faith in a power that could achieve what I could not.

Faith is the evidence of things hoped for and the substance of things not seen. If you already have that thing ...whatever you want ... there is no need to hope for it. If you have no way to get it except hope, then you are putting your faith in something besides yourself to produce this thing you want so badly. Yes I have had faith while praying for a sick child,whom everyone gave no hope to live, a friend who was given 3 months to live ...no hope of getting better. The doctors could do no more ....so I started asking a higher power to help them live and believing He would answer my faith in Him.. they miraclously revived. I didn't need faith in these matters anymore because the substance was seen in these being healed. Even reports in Readers Digest taken by scientists say people that were sick and received prayer were more likely to heal faster than those without it. Yes there has been times in my life I had to believe for groceries and money for things needed I could not achieve on my own and it always came...I believe, from having faith in a power that could achieve what I could not.

Faith is the evidence of things hoped for and the substance of things not seen. If you already have that thing ...whatever you want ... there is no need to hope for it. If you have no way to get it except hope, then you are putting your faith in something besides yourself to produce this thing you want so badly. Yes I have had faith while praying for a sick child,whom everyone gave no hope to live, a friend who was given 3 months to live ...no hope of getting better. The doctors could do no more ....so I started asking a higher power to help them live and believing He would answer my faith in Him.. they miraclously revived. I didn't need faith in these matters anymore because the substance was seen in these being healed. Even reports in Readers Digest taken by scientists say people that were sick and received prayer were more likely to heal faster than those without it. Yes there has been times in my life I had to believe for groceries and money for things needed I could not achieve on my own and it always came...I believe, from having faith in a power that could achieve what I could not.

I believe that faith is inherent in the human being yet must have an object. That object varies for many of the people who live on this earth. The objects of peoples faith may or may not in the end have any power to heal or to deliver from trouble or even to save our souls. Yet even faith in a powerless object can produce a temporary feeling of peace and give temporary comfort. That is why so many different religions are followed by a variety of people. I would hope that the object of our faith, has truly eternal power. Then and only then will our faith go beyond temporal benefits and have eternal ramifications. I have chosen as the object of my faith, after much searching and studying Jesus Christ. I am saddened though that most churches today do not represent Him properly. And I respect that each man and woman on this earth have the God given right to seek for truth and have faith in whatever object they may choose. Jesus did not command the world to believe in Him. He simply invited us to place our faith in Him. When our time comes to die we will then see whether the object of our faith has the power to forgive our sins and give us eternal life. Until then I join you all in the pursuit of truth on the road of life. May we all walk it with love in our hearts towards all others. Even those who disagree with us. Have a love filled day

I believe that faith is inherent in the human being yet must have an object. That object varies for many of the people who live on this earth. The objects of peoples faith may or may not in the end have any power to heal or to deliver from trouble or even to save our souls. Yet even faith in a powerless object can produce a temporary feeling of peace and give temporary comfort. That is why so may different religions are followed by a variety of people. I would hope that the object of our faith, has truly eternal power. Then and only then will our faith go beyond temporal benefits and have eternal ramifications. I have chosen as the object of my faith, after much searching and studying Jesus Christ. I am saddened though that most churches today do not represent Him properly. And I respect that each man and woman on this earth have the God given right to seek for truth and have faith in whatever object they may choose. Jesus did not command the world to believe in Him. He simply invited us to place our faith in Him. When our time comes to die we will then see whether the object of our faith has the power to forgive our sins and give us eternal life. Until then I join you all in the pursuit of truth on the road of life. May we all walk it with love in our hearts towards all others. Even those who disagree with us. Have a love filled day

I believe that faith is inherent in the human being yet must have an object. That object varies for many of the people who live on this earth. The objects of peoples faith may or may not in the end have any power to heal or to deliver from trouble or even to save our souls. Yet even faith in a powerless object can produce a temporary feeling of peace and give temporary comfort. That is why so may different religions are followed by a variety of people. I would hope that the object of our faith, has truly eternal power. Then and only then will our faith go beyond temporal benefits and have eternal ramifications. I have chosen as the object of my faith, after much searching and studying Jesus Christ. I am saddened though that most churches today do not represent Him properly. And I respect that each man and woman on this earth have the God given right to seek for truth and have faith in whatever object they may choose. Jesus did not command the world to believe in Him. He simply invited us to place our faith in Him. When our time comes to die we will then see whether the object of our faith has the power to forgive our sins and give us eternal life. Until then I join you all in the pursuit of truth on the road of life. May we all walk it with love in our hearts towards all others. Even those who disagree with us. Have a love filled day

Faith is the evidence of things hoped for and the substance of things not seen. If you already have that thing ...whatever you want ... there is no need to hope for it. If you have no way to get it except hope, then you are putting your faith in something besides yourself to produce this thing you want so badly. Yes I have had faith while praying for a sick child,whom everyone gave no hope to live, a friend who was given 3 months to live ...no hope of getting better. The doctors could do no more ....so I started asking a higher power to help them live and believing He would answer my faith in Him.. they revived. I didn't need faith in these matters anymore because the substance was seen in these being healed. Even reports in Readers Digest taken by scientists say people that were sick and received prayer were more likely to heal faster than those without it. Yes there has been times in my life I had to believe for groceries and money for things needed I could not achieve on my own and it always came...I believe, from having faith in a power that could achieve what I could not.

Faith is the evidence of things hoped for and the substance of things not seen. If you already have that thing ...whatever you want ... there is no need to hope for it. If you have no way to get it except hope, then you are putting your faith in something besides yourself to produce this thing you want so badly. Yes I have had faith while praying for a sick child,whom everyone gave no hope to live, a friend who was given 3 months to live ...no hope of getting better. The doctors could do no more ....so I started asking a higher power to help them live and believing He would answer my faith in Him.. they revived. I didn't need faith in these matters anymore because the substance was seen in these being healed. Even reports in Readers Digest taken by scientists say people that were sick and received prayer were more likely to heal faster than those without it. Yes there has been times in my life I had to believe for groceries and money for things needed I could not achieve on my own and it always came...I believe, from having faith in a power that could achieve what I could not.

Faith is the evidence of things hoped for and the substance of things not seen. If you already have that thing ...whatever you want ... there is no need to hope for it. If you have no way to get it except hope, then you are putting your faith in something besides yourself to produce this thing you want so badly. Yes I have had faith while praying for a sick child,whom everyone gave no hope to live, a friend who was given 3 months to live ...no hope of getting better. The doctors could do no more ....so I started asking a higher power to help them live and believing He would answer my faith in Him.. they revived. I didn't need faith in these matters anymore because the substance was seen in these being healed. Even reports in Readers Digest taken by scientists say people that were sick and received prayer were more likely to heal faster than those without it. Yes there has been times in my life I had to believe for groceries and money for things needed I could not achieve on my own and it always came...I believe, from having faith in a power that could achieve what I could not.

Faith is the evidence of things hoped for and the substance of things not seen. If you already have that thing ...whatever you want ... there is no need to hope for it. If you have no way to get it except hope, then you are putting your faith in something besides yourself to produce this thing you want so badly. Yes I have had faith while praying for a sick child,whom everyone gave no hope to live, a friend who was given 3 months to live ...no hope of getting better. The doctors could do no more ....so I started asking a higher power to help them live and believing He would answer my faith in Him.. they revived. I didn't need faith in these matters anymore because the substance was seen in these being healed. Even reports in Readers Digest taken by scientists say people that were sick and received prayer were more likely to heal faster than those without it. Yes there has been times in my life I had to believe for groceries and money for things needed I could not achieve on my own and it always came...I believe, from having faith in a power that could achieve what I could not.

Faith is the evidence of things hoped for and the substance of things not seen. If you already have that thing ...whatever you want ... there is no need to hope for it. If you have no way to get it except hope, then you are putting your faith in something besides yourself to produce this thing you want so badly. Yes I have had faith while praying for a sick child,whom everyone gave no hope to live, a friend who was given 3 months to live ...no hope of getting better. The doctors could do no more ....so I started asking a higher power to help them live and believing He would answer my faith in Him.. they revived. I didn't need faith in these matters anymore because the substance was seen in these being healed. Even reports in Readers Digest taken by scientists say people that were sick and received prayer were more likely to heal faster than those without it. Yes there has been times in my life I had to believe for groceries and money for things needed I could not achieve on my own and it always came...I believe, from having faith in a power that could achieve what I could not.

Faith is the evidence of things hoped for and the substance of things not seen. If you already have that thing ...whatever you want ... there is no need to hope for it. If you have no way to get it except hope, then you are putting your faith in something besides yourself to produce this thing you want so badly. Yes I have had faith while praying for a sick child,whom everyone gave no hope to live, a friend who was given 3 months to live ...no hope of getting better. The doctors could do no more ....so I started asking a higher power to help them live and believing He would answer my faith in Him.. they revived. I didn't need faith in these matters anymore because the substance was seen in these being healed. Even reports in Readers Digest taken by scientists say people that were sick and received prayer were more likely to heal faster than those without it. Yes there has been times in my life I had to believe for groceries and money for things needed I could not achieve on my own and it always came...I believe, from having faith in a power that could achieve what I could not.

Faith is the evidence of things hoped for and the substance of things not seen. If you already have that thing ...whatever you want ... there is no need to hope for it. If you have no way to get it except hope, then you are putting your faith in something besides yourself to produce this thing you want so badly. Yes I have had faith while praying for a sick child,whom everyone gave no hope to live, a friend who was given 3 months to live ...no hope of getting better. The doctors could do no more ....so I started asking a higher power to help them live and believing He would answer my faith in Him.. they miraculasly revived. I didn't need faith in these matters anymore because the substance was seen in these being healed. Even reports in Readers Digest taken by scientists say people that were sick and received prayer were more likely to heal faster than those without it. Yes there has been times in my life I had to believe for groceries and money for things needed I could not achieve on my own and it always came...I believe, from having faith in a power that could achieve what I could not.

Good job Guy! I agree 100% with what you said. So many people want religion to be a balm that soothes whatever there perspective on life is. That is why "religion" is such a bad thing. Many horrible things have been done in the name of "religion." Jesus did not talk about religion, except in negative terms. He did talk about a relationship with God through Him. Religion is the opiate for the people. Jesus is "the way, the truth, and the life....!" One day "every knee will bow and every tongue confess to the glory of God that Jesus Christ is Lord." People need to quit believing in the hype of inherent goodness and realize that "the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked." Yes, there is a heaven for those who have faith in Jesus and a hell for those who have rejected Him.

I hate mysteries. Like a lawyer, I want to know what the truth is. I hate religions that simply say "It's a mystery. Just trust me and drink the koolaid." Since faith is only as good as the object in which our faith is placed, we should only put our faith in a God who is in fact real/true. Since I am not going to put my eternal salvation in the hands of a charlatan, I demand that I be able to investigate the claims being made by any religious figure. For example, if someone says "have faith in Jesus Christ", you should demand the evidence to determine whether he was trustworthy or not. Remember, you are trusting Him with your eternal salvation. If you are interested in religion purely for the sake of how it makes you feel, then choose any religion that makes you feel good. I wanted to answer a different question. I wanted to have peace (here and now) based on the knowledge of what would happen to me after this life ended. I am a Christian. I have investigated the central question of Christianity (i.e. did Jesus rise from the dead). I have discovered, based on the evidence, that he did rise from the dead. I now have peace because I am convinced by the evidence that he is who he said he was (i.e. God incarnate) and I can trust him because he offers a free gift of eternal life to all who accept and follow him. Since no other person rose from the dead and proved it through so many convincing proofs, I have decided to put my trust in Jesus. Is this a politically incorrect statement? You bet! Is it unloving? No. The unloving thing to do would be to NOT tell people about Jesus... allowing them quietly and politely to go to a place of terrible separation from God. Investigate the claims of Jesus for yourself and then decide. You won't be disappointed.

"However, communicating in words about what is revealed in silence is the province of poets and prophets."

We approach those poets with a desire for aesthetics, and that's what they can offer. We approach those prophets with a desire for truth and that is what they absolutely *cannot* offer (they can only offer more poetry). When we turn our faith to the prophet, as opposed to the mystery, then we deceive ourselves. People willfully engage in this self-deception because the mystery itself is daunting and incommunicable, precisely as Mr. Waterston relates.

johnny;
A peculiar proposition of yours "i can do without faith" it is altogether mindboggling how it could be denied that it is those who have faith in an afterlife or existence beyond death, that are those who reveal the beauty and sublimity of the mysterious and who make of our living time a delicious experience. Can you imagine a great poet or musician without faith? They are as dry and dead and ugly as they are unable to see the difference between the good and bad the living and the dead.

Mr. Waterson was asked why he believes. Please don't then judge what he answers in response. For those of us who understand what faith means to us individually, Mr. Waterson's words hit the mark. God provides each of us with special talents and we don't all have to go out and speak about faith. I believe Mr. Waterson's point is that living a life of faith and taking actions of faith (prayer, meditation, etc.) is just as important as speaking about faith. My personal perspective is that actions speak louder than words. Paul's Letter to the Hebrews provides the circular impact of (to paraphrase) "faith, without actions (whatever those actions may be), is no faith at all."

What DOES Mr W believe in? Does Anyone Know?

It seems to me he believes in having faith.
That is fine with me.
But
most people have Faith in X.
Faith in something.

Can anyone tell what Sam has faith in? Mystery?

I too have faith in mystery, so that wouldn't be a bad thing.

We live in a day and age where "window dressing" has eclipsed substance in terms of priorities and social importance. The power to LIVE and therefore present a powerful example to others of one's ethics BY example is what made this nation great. I agree with Sam Waterston: that religion and politics do not mix well with the media. These inexact "sciences" mold themselves to individuals' lives and their circumstances. The basic, or core values are what are important in governing ones' decision-making and outward actions. If you're deeply/sincerely convinced of your personal beliefs and you are asked, respond positively (but not vitriolically). Otherwise, share your values by example. Live your life quietly, but powerfully. Choose to dare to do what you know needs to be done ("For him to know what is right and not to do it, for him it is a sin"). This country has become corrupt and greedy and has lost its moral will. As I said in the beginning of my comments, we are far more concerned with "window dressing" than substance. And we have reached a point where money, rather than personal ethics, is "king". Look around at transactions, these days, look at people's behavior. You'll see it all around you. Money justifies everything. It used to be that a man's word and his handshake could seal a deal. Nowadays, it takes a 200 page legal document and two law firms to accomplish the same thing. That's what I mean by the lack of moral fiber. There's no trust. "Religious silence" refers to a total lack. . . .repressed expression of belief. People recognize good things when they happen. Those "good things" can easily be borne of good religious ethics. Nothing needs to be said. There's a very good saying: "Bloom where you are planted". Look for opportunities to do good things. Exercise what you know to be good ethics in your dealings with each other. That doesn't mean "roll over", or let someone roll over you. Jesus stood His ground when He was challenged. He was living by example. We can do the same. Substantial living speaks much more powerfully than verbiage.

Sam, we can no longer keep "religious silence".

As with most of us you were bred, born and brainwashed in some type of religion. No problem with this with most religions. It is when some "breeders" turn violent to further their religion that we have problems. Contemporary Islam unfortunately has too many "dark side" bred members. And there are also a few contemporary "bible thumpers" who also turn to the "dark side".

These groups must be watched diligently which the US taxpayers do these days via our Homeland Security Department. How depressing that so much money has to be spent fighting ill- bred religious terrorists!!!!! We are paying a deep price for too little shock and awe in Baghdad.

The Modest and Estimable Mr Waterson Suggests

1. Have Faith in the Day. Good advice if one can manage it. Pretty good evidence that this day is going to be followed by another, pretty much like it.

2. Meditate or be quiet periodically. Unquestionably good advice. Scientifically demonstrated to be Good for us.

3. Realize and honor that there is Mystery. Again, impeccable advice. Thomas Mann (the German Henry James) said that a reiligious sensibility consists in having a taste for the infinite.

Mr Waterson does NOT say: believe in a Supernatural God who answers your prayers. Who will send you to Heaven. Who parted the Red Sea.

His points 1, 2 and 3 are guides for a person of sensibility.

Religious have not seriously considered the arguments against religion or they would not believe anymore. all religions posit ridiculous beliefs that no reasonable person who was not raised in that faith could possibly accept. here’s the Aztec creation myth (below). Does any reader find this story credible? if you looked at christianity or islam, etc. from an unbiased perspective, they would seem just as ludicrous as the aztec stories.

The mother of the Aztec creation story was called Coatlique (the Lady of the Skirt of Snakes). She was created in the image of the unknown, decorated with skulls, snakes, and lacerated hands. There are no cracks in her body and she is a perfect monolith (a totality of intensity and self-containment, yet her features were square and decapitated).

Coatlique was first impregnated by an obsidian knife and gave birth to Coyolxanuhqui, goddess of the moon, and to a group of male offspring, who became the stars. Then one day Coatlique found a ball of feathers, which she tucked into her bosom. When she looked for it later, it was gone, at which time she realized that she was again pregnant. Her children, the moon and stars did not believe her story. Ashamed of their mother, they resolved to kill her. A goddess could only give birth once, to the original litter of divinity and no more. During the time that they were plotting her demise, Coatlique gave birth to the fiery god of war, Huitzilopochtli. With the help of a fire serpent, he destroyed his brothers and sister, murdering them in a rage. He beheaded Coyolxauhqui and threw her body into a deep gorge in a mountain, where it lies dismembered forever. The natural cosmos of the Indians was born of catastrophe. The heavens literally crumbled to pieces. The earth mother fell and was fertilized, while her children were torn apart by fratricide and then scattered and disjointed throughout the universe

Perry Clark --

"In my experience, such remains "belief in things unseen"."

Would that be in the empirical realm, or the supernaturalist? Belief in subatomic particles is entirely rational; belief in demonic "forces" is not.

"And while one may find it humorous and useful to quote Bierce, others may see it as the facile waving about of the comments of a man who found it easy to destroy with humor but impossible in any way to build."

Having read Mr. Bierce's satire AND his fiction, I take issue with that description. I don't happen to view literature, satiric or otherwise, as destruction.

"And what is it?"

Umm ... another mysterious supernaturalist "force," ala Star Wars? Facetious and smartass, I know, but it leads into your next argument:

"Regardless of how one chooses to explain the existence and meaning of "good", one is forced in the end to realize, if one is honest, that the foundations of that definition rest on faith that "good", as something universally recognized, exists."

One IS honest, and one is NOT forced in the end to such a realization. Not THIS one, at any rate. The President pimps "good" and "evil." The fundamentalist supernaturalists pimp "good" and "evil." I've been labeled as "evil" by supernaturalists simply because I refuse to accede to supernaturalist dictates and/or arguments (which, in the absence of evidence, is all they can offer.) AM I evil? By THEIR lights, of course I am. Simplistic, authoritarian, magical views on the complexities of human interaction too often result in such judgments.

"Otherwise we're reduced to circular arrangements of defining good using pleasure, and pleasure using that same notion of good."

I've never been reduced to such arrangements. I don't know anyone who has, supernaturalist or not. What an extraordinary assertion.

"and to call this specious is to sit at a table with Rorty and his band, drinking coffee and denying even the existence of truth."

And to call MY reasoning specious is to sit at a campfire with witch doctors, peering at chicken guts. See how insulting that is, much less arrogant? I still find the "faith in the day" assertion specious. The Dark Side of the Force, I suppose.

Bertrand Russell.
Fear,the Foundation of Religion
Religion is based,I think,primarily and mainly upon fear. It is partly the terror of the unknown and partly the wish to feel that you have a kind of elder brother who will stand by you in all your troubles and disputes.
Fear is the basis of the whole thing-fear of the mysterious,fear of defeat,fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty,
and therefore it is no wonder if religion and cruelty have gone hand in hand.It is because fear is at the basis of those two things. In this world we can now begin a little to understand things,and a little to master them by help of science,
which has forced its way step by step against the Christian religion,against the churches,and against the opposition of all the old precepts. Science can help us to get over this craven fear in which mankind has lived for so many generations. Science can teach us,and I think our own hearts can teach us,no longer to look around for imaginary supports,no longer to invent allies in the sky,but rather to look to our own efforts here below to make this world a fit place to live in,instead of the sort of place that the churches in all these centuries have made it.
Bertrand Russell
Why I Am Not a Christian.
pp22

Jonny--

Greetings; if I may, I'd like to respond to your comments denigrating faith.

With all due respect to both the Devil and his dictionary, Mr. Bierce did not provide the most succinct definition of faith. In my experience, such remains "belief in things unseen". And while one may find it humorous and useful to quote Bierce, others may see it as the facile waving about of the comments of a man who found it easy to destroy with humor but impossible in any way to build.

You dismiss Waterston's statements as the "specious argument that one must have faith to cross the street". I fear you have misunderstood his meaning, though I must admit that it is possible I, too, have done so. But to continue: Is it not possible that what Waterstone refers to is not something so simple as a reasonable belief that crossing the street might with some diligence be achieved?

He writes that "faith in the day gets us up in the morning". I find in that much more than what you dismiss as specious argument. It brings up for consideration the question of why we get up in the morning with a sense of purpose, with a sense that the day may bring good, and that with a reasonable and well-guided effort we can contribute to that good. Why do we think that? Is it because so much good has accumulated over the eons? If so, must we not pause at some point to explain to our children what good is, and how it can be identified, known, and perhaps even produced? To do so, of course, we must be able to explain to ourselves what good is. And what is it?

Regardless of how one chooses to explain the existence and meaning of "good", one is forced in the end to realize, if one is honest, that the foundations of that definition rest on faith that "good", as something universally recognized, exists. Otherwise we're reduced to circular arrangements of defining good using pleasure, and pleasure using that same notion of good.

I think that what Waterston meant was something closer to what I've briefly presented here, and to call this specious is to sit at a table with Rorty and his band, drinking coffee and denying even the existence of truth. One can do it, but it's hardly fulfilling.

Sam --

I think you may be confusing "faith in the day" with many other thought processes. It is the old specious argument that one must have faith to cross the street.

Ambrose Bierce gave us the most succinct definition of faith:

"Faith, n.: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge of things without parallel."

That is the reason why every authoritarian supernaturalist cult dictates that faith is THE primary virtue. And that is the reason I can most certainly do without faith, or any other form of magical thinking.

Well considered, and well put, Mr. Waterston.

I think your position to a great extent epitomizes that of the typical American believer--one believes, tries to act like it, and speaks of it only when necessary.

I don't mean the foregoing to be pejorative, but only a densely synoptic presentation of what is. But that position does have its weaknesses, as I'm sure many recognize. One has to do with the ease of avoiding obligation when it's unrecognized by others. Another involves ambivalence at best, and avoidance at worst, of one of the larger obligations, that of witnessing to the world.

When one is a surreptitious, unmarked, or unrecognized member of a group, one ceases to carry about for public viewing the obligation to act as a member of that group. While this can help avoid confrontation, it is also the instinctual practice of spies, frauds, cheats, and thieves. There is much good to be had by avowed members of a group acting as such, and much to be lost when group members bury their associations and blend with whatever their surroundings might be.

The second problem arises with the ease with which the first means of avoiding obligation facilitates another--specifically, the calling to witness to others. Standing up and preaching and teaching what one believes to be right and true, when it conflicts strongly with what others believe, is a tremendously difficult task. Those who fail in this find themselves in good company, for there are none who always get it right, and precious few who ever even come close.

That prayer and meditation on God and what He would have us know, and do, is good cannot be, from a believer's perspective, argued. Conversation with God is a wonderful, awesome good. But we must always remember that even in times set aside for this, such as the Sabbath, God Himself, walking amongst us, chose sometimes to do things--such as heal the sick--rather than merely sit and meditate. We should always be seeking the wisdom to know when and how we should speak and act, and do so with the love and grace of God animating our mouths and hands.

God bless all.

Why I believe ?
Very simple,because you(human beings) have been believing since 10000 BC.