All Comments (139)

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I am 23, married with two kids under 3. I am a active Christian and have read all seven books. I loved them. When reading them I didn't stop and think, "Wow, God's going to really hate that." These books are fun and entertaining. Rowling's took many of the morals that I want my children to learn and applied them to Harry's life. (They get to see morals and values in action - and how great is that!) Harry had to CHOOSE to be courageous, to have loyalty and to build friendships. He had to CHOOSE to have hope when things went wrong, which they inevitably did. I think that Susan had a point when she said that the good are not always rewarded(at least not here on Earth). I want my children to realize that life isn't always about doing what is easiest or fun but about doing what is right and that sometimes doing what is right can hurt.

After reading these books, I know I'm going to encourage my children to read them when they're ready. If they have questions I can answer them and if there are parts that I would dislike then I will discuss it with them. Oh, and attempting to ban these books is ridiculous, the Supreme Court ruled in Tinker vs. Des Moines that, "Students do not shed their constitutional rights at the schoolroom gate." Every child has a protected freedom to read what pleases them, even if mom and dad don't like it. Parenting is the key here, don't supress your children's imaginations or short change their ability to see reality from fiction. Children are often brighter than we realize.

The most important thing about having the freedom to read what we want is having the right to form our own opinions. And after reading a lot of these posts I think that we need to have the decency to keep our mouths shut when we can't contribute something constructive to a discussion. Wow, that sounded like my mom, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all." lol

Susan,

You have got to be kidding. Just because most of this world deems the "Harry Potter" movies and books as innocent they're an abonination. It's very clear every day that there are those that think it's ok to send your children to see movies that teach lying and stealing, witchraft and other immoral behavior (let's call it what is in); you can't even watch a commercial on network television these days without some sexual or immoral display during the hours in which our children are watching network television and most movices these days are about evil spirits such as vampires, evil (even in the title). In addition, there's been several articles regarding teenagers purchasing more and more books on witchcraft, dragons and the like(which I'm sure you've probably not read as it doesn't agree with your "whatever goes" attitude. What more can we expect from the likes of people who believe God should be taken out of every aspect of the American Life and the World. May God have mercy on your soul!

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The Harry Potter books have made my daughter an excellent reader at a young age. We have strengthened our bond over our love for the books.

"The Harry Potter books help children realize that there is good and evil in this world and you should not remain passive in the face of cruelty but name it."

Thank you for this essay.

A brilliant summary of the importance of the Potter books.

One of the interesting aspects of the Harry Potter books is that whenever Harry Potter is confronted with a situation where he has to defend himself or family or friends, he almost always makes the more compassionate choice.

I wonder if this is the reason why most fundamentalists (of whatever kind) cannot abide these books; for them, there is only black and white, no shades of gray, no complexity, no room for doubt. Most people of good will however can appreciate why a more compassionate choice is made; and invariably it will further on in the story redound in Harry’s favor.

Michael-
That's an interesting take on the sword. I've never heard that before. I doubt that it was ever intended as a crucifix reference though. Seemed more like the Arthurian Legend of Lady of the Lake to me, which seems more in keeping with the mythological basis from many different cultures used for much of the imagery throughout the books.

King's Cross is a real station in London. I think she just used the name to link it to our world. I don't know where the original name for the station came from, though your idea sounds like it's probably right.

I saw a special on some of the real places she mentions- King's Cross being one of them- and they showed how for a while they had roped off the barrier between platforms 9 and 10 because people were getting hurt. Now they have a separate platform 9 3/4.

What I love about books, especially epic ones like these, are that ten different people can read the same material and come to totally opposite conclusions about it.

I think your take on it is especially interesting given how quick so many Christians are ready to burn or ban it without having even picked it up.

Michael:

You obviously read it a lot more closely than I did. But I read it strictly for entertainment, not theology.

I just saw allusions to the Lady of the Lake in the retrieval of the sword. I've seen lots of cruciform sword hilts - protects the fingers. I never saw a sword as a crucifixion symbol.

And King's Cross is just a geographical name to me.

Lepidopteryx:

Let's begin with the graveyard on Christmas eve. The carol singing is coming from inside "a little church whose stained-glass windows were glowing jewel-bright across the square." I somehow doubt that the only carols being sung in the church were secular. Then the gravestones: the inscriptions read "Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also" and "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" -- from Matthew and 1 Corinthians. Then the graves in the church graveyard -- I believe that the custom was that only those given Christian burial could be laid to rest in such a graveyard. Not only Dumbledore's and Harry's families are there, but other wizarding families as well. I may be wrong about the link to burial in a church graveyard, but that doesn't get rid of the Biblical inscriptions.

It's true that Hermione and Harry don't recognize the biblical verses and, I think, are probably unchurched -- though Hermione seems to have some idea of what the Corinthians inscription is about. They live in contemporary England, a land of carols sung at Christmas by people who are no longer Christians. But a land marked by Christianity. So, yes, Harry says no prayers when he buries Dobby. He doesn't know any.

Another feature of the last book in particular: cross symbolism. The sword of Gryffindor is described as lying at the bottom of the frozen pool like a silver cross. Dumbledore meets Harry at "King's Cross". The cross of the King. This is what happens immediately after Harry lays down his life for his friends. (Cf. John 15:13.) Then there is the matter of the horcruxes -- hor-crosses. Voldemort uses the horcruxes to try to provide himself immortality -- he kills others and dis-integrates his soul in order to save his life. This is the reverse, a perversion of the idea of the Cross (hor = horrible) -- to save others by accepting death. Even the torture curse ("Crucio") is named for the cross. It is a crucifixion curse. (And Harry's body is made to suffer it -- he is even "lifted up" -- albeit after Voldemort thinks he is dead, and after he has actually been resurrected.)

And that's just the tip of the iceberg. I am not alone, or particularly original, in seeing this kind of thing in the books. Christian symbolism in earlier books has been discussed at length by John Granger in his book Looking for God in Harry Potter.

Michael: **And indeed the last book is so shot through with Christian symbolism it is hard for any educated Christian to miss it.**

I'll give you partial credit for Christmas, but it's the secular aspect of Christmas that's portrayed. Rowling doesn't specify what carols are being sung - we have no way of knowing whether they were singing "Silent Night" or "Grandma Got Run Over by a Reindeer." I don't recall any mention of creches decorating Godric's Hollow.

As for the burial in a church cemetary, I'm guessing that's an more of a cultural thing than a religious one, since cemetaries are often abutted to churches. But I wouldn't go so far as to imagine that we are expected to assume that James and Lily were buried by an Anglican priest reciting trinitarian prayers. There are certainly no prayers when Harry buries Dobby.

Lepidopteryx: "THERE ID NO DEVIL WORSHIP IN HARRY POTTER! THERE IS NO RELIGION OF ANY KIND IN HARRY POTTER!"

1/2 points there. The first part is absolutely right. But the second is wrong. There is religion in Harry Potter. The religion is Christianity.

See Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, chapter 16, Godric's Hollow. It is Christmas Eve in Godric's Hollow, the wizarding village (well, mixed wizard/muggle village) in which Harry's parents lived. There are carols being sung in the village church as Harry and Hermione sneak through the town. Harry and Hermione recognize the carols. They find the graves of Harry's parents and of Dumbledore's mother and sister in the church graveyard -- therefore these people were given Christian burial. On each of the tombstones is engraved a biblical verse.

And indeed the last book is so shot through with Christian symbolism it is hard for any educated Christian to miss it.

I love children's literature and sharing my favorites with children who have never been inspired to read because they have never had anything that captured their imaginations. I love the Harry Potter books, among many others. They're imaginative and funny, yet at the same time, minus the magic and fight against evil, they deal with issues that are entirely familiar with kids. And while I can't say what the long-term effect will be on my students, I know the books have prompted some interesting discussions.

About death- yes, "Voldemort" does literally mean "Fly from death" but not just because people fly from him to avoid their death. Voldemort is a character, who at great cost to all his better qualities, has fled death himself. By killing others, he prolongs his own life. Children are fascinated by this. For many of them, they consider that while death makes them sad, they would never want to keep their family and friends alive by some evil so damaging to their humanity. Many consider for the first time that there are things worse than death.

About judging others- Harry is no ideal character. He pronounces judgment on many fellow students, and teachers. He is often wrong, and must humbly revise his opinions and apologize for them. It is wonderful for children to read a book where the hero is not flawless. It empowers them, and enables them to recognize people's mistakes while recognizing their overall personalities.

Many other issues-- friendship, equality, making difficult decisions, and taking the less popular course-- all come up in the books.
I only wish all children had the opportunity read books that prompt a genuine interest in the complexities of being a good person!

What I admired about the Harry Potter series was that it took on moral seriousness without clubbing the children over the heads with unsubtle imagery. I could haggle over spoilers, but you'd have to live in a fortified bunker to not know how the series ends by now!

Dobson, et al, seem to forget that Harry and compary struggle against insensate cruelty and evil, unlike the mages of the Bronze age Near East.

Parent:

My child knows about the Bible. She also knows about the Qu'ran, and the Bhagavad Gita, and the Goseigen, as well as the teachings of the Buddha. She has copies of all of them. She is also familiar with the writings of Starhawk, and Einstein, and Hawking. And she has found nuggets of wisdom in all of these.

She has also found fictional characters who exhibit positive values that she chooses to emulate - Huckleberry Finn, Taylor Greer (from Barbara Kingsolver's "The Bean Trees"), Batman, Jean Valjean, and yes, Harry Potter,just to name a few.

And just in case you missed it the last hundred times it's been pointed out, THERE ID NO DEVIL WORSHIP IN HARRY POTTER! THERE IS NO RELIGION OF ANY KIND IN HARRY POTTER! I have made this challenge before and had no takers. If you can find so much as one incident of devil worship in even one of the Harry Potter books, I will eat the entire series with fava beans and a nice Chianti.

I don't feed my child filth. I provide her with literture that teaches positive values.

Harry Potter is a book of European majic. polythesim and voodoo. I is Terrible how the west puts forth this Christian image and in secret there is still the practice of majic equal to the Africans and Native American. When will hypocrisy stop in the christian world. American Christian children do know what the bible says but can quote H.P. American teens are influenced now with this literary devil worship. it's bad enough they are cross dressing and doing crime. why would you feed your children this filth.

SPENSER:
My apologies for misspelling your name. I have never been a very skilled typist.

The good Reverend never claims that the books teach Biblical doctrine. She says that they teach moral and ethical values lessons (loyalty, choosing good even when it is more difficult and dangerous than evil, altruistic love to the point of being willing to sacrifice one's life to save another, for example) that are compatible with pretty much any religious belief system, including Christianity.

Your objection seems to be that she doesn't teach these values with characters who reflect a Judeo-Christian worldview.

Any literary character - from Jesus to Huckleberry Finn to Harry Potter - who encourages children to cultivate those attributes is welcome in my library.

I'm not sure what you mean by the HP books crafting a world order. Rowling has created a fictional worls, as do all fantasy writers. The best ones create fictional worlds that make us believe while we're reading that they are real, and maybe even wish after we finish the last page, that they could be.

As for perpetuating beliefs and practices, it's obvious that you know nothing of the true nature of witchcraft or magic. The witchcraft depicted in HP is Disney witchcraft, and is no more a recruiting tool than Mickey Mouse in "The Sorcerer's Apprentice" - it has nothing to do with the practices of real witches. Magic that violates the laws of nature (the sort of magic depicted in HP) is not what is practiced by real witches. Talk to a few real witches and find out what their beliefs and practices really are. You might be surprised.

Yes, many of us Pagans enjoy Rowling's work, but we recognize it as pure fiction. And anyone who tries to do magic Rowling-style is going to be sorely disppointed. You can point a stick of holly at an inanimate object and say "Wingardium leviosa" all day long and it's NOT going to levitate. Likewise if you shout "Avada kedavra" at someone, they may look at you strangely, but they will not drop dead. The practice of real magic requires training, study, and self-discipline, and those who are looking for an easy path will soon abandon it. It isn't for the weak of mind or spirit.

"lepidopteryx:
Spencer,"

First, let's say that if one read and wrote as carefully -- not "Spencer" but SPENSER -- as you, they might be qualified to head up a theology department at, say, the University of Chicago.

As for your question -- "So you think that the only book anyone should ever read is the Bible?" -- the answer is an unequivocal no.

You seem to confuse a critique of the inherent hypocrisy, heresy and apostasy of the good professor's stated position -- or, at best, the indefensibly paradoxical if not oxymoronic (and I choose the latter, I suppose) -- with a disdain for all things literary. Au contraire, mon ami!

My shelves are filled with thousands of "secular" books, artisticl, historical and fantastical in nature (and everything in between and beyond). But to be intellectually and spiritually credible and consistent, I could hardly argue that, say, Nazi propoganda was consitent with true biblical Christian values (as many did at the times and have done ever since). Now, don't confuse that with me equating JK and the professor and others with Nazis. I am only trying to give a clear and stark example that defines the problem I have with the professor and her anti-biblical and anti-Christian amd amti-theological, illogical and intellectually unsound defense of a specific series of literary endeavorsd whose fundanmental basis -- witchcraft, spells nd divinations -- are clearly and unequivocally called in the Judeo-Cheritian texts by God Himself sinful and an abomination!

And remember, the Potter books are also not history of the acts of real people, but the crafting of a "world order" of sorts (literary though it might be) and propogation of a lifestyle and fandom that perpetutes the beliefs and practices detailed therein, all with the endorsement and encouragement of JK herself.

But your brief and silly comment really reveal, don't they, that such thoughts are not particularly meaningful to you, no more than a thoughtful discussion that might include views opposed to your own!

Sorry that you are so myopic as to entirely misapply and criticize something based on so broad an interprettion of something very clear in so narrow minded a way as you've shown.

Sad, really. Had you actually learned some of what the professor claims is in the books it seems clear you would not have done such a thing. And that's the rub -- it isn't what you'd like it to be, no matter how much you wish it to be!

"lepidopteryx:
Spencer,"

First, let's say that if one read and wrote as carefully -- not "Spencer" but SPENSER -- as you, they might be qualified to head up a theology department at, say, the University of Chicago.

As for your question -- "So you think that the only book anyone should ever read is the Bible?" -- the answer is an unequivocal no.

You seem to confuse a critique of the inherent hypocrisy, heresy and apostasy of the good professor's stated position -- or, at best, the indefensibly paradoxical if not oxymoronic (and I choose the latter, I suppose) -- with a disdain for all things literary. Au contraire, mon ami!

My shelves are filled with thousands of "ecular" books, artisticl, historical and fantastical in nature (and everything in between and beyond). But to be intellectually and spiritually credible and consistent, I could hardly argue that, say, Nazi propoganda was consitent with true biblical Christian values (as many did at the times and have done ever since). Now, don't confuse that with me equating JK and the professor and others with Nazis. I am only trying to give a clear and stark example that defines the problem I have with the professor and her anti-biblical and anti-Christian amd amti-theological, illogical and intellectually unsound defense of a specific series of literary endeavorsd whose fundanmental basis -- witchcraft, spells nd divinations -- are clearly and unequivocally called in the Judeo-Cheritian texts by God Himself sinful and an abomination!

And remember, the Potter books are also not history of the acts of real people, but the crafting of a "world order" of sorts (literary though it might be) and propogation of a lifestyle and fandom that perpetutes the beliefs and practices detailed therein, all with the endorsement and encouragement of JK herself.

But your brief and silly comment really reveal, don't they, that such thoughts are not particularly meaningful to you, no more than a thoughtful discussion that might include views opposed to your own!

Sorry that you are so myopic as to entirely misapply and criticize something based on so broad an interprettion of something very clear in so narrow minded a way aas you've shown.

Sad, really. Had you actually learned some of what the professor claims is in the books it seems clear you would not have done such a thing. And that's the rub -- it isn't what you'd like it to be, no matter how much you wish it to be!

You are full of it, Thistlethwaite.

How did you ever become a professor of Theology?!

Spencer,

So you think that the only book anyone should ever read is the Bible?

"On Faith" panelist Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite is president of Chicago Theological Seminary. ... Her area of expertise is contextual theologies of liberation, specializing in issues of violence and violation.

A QUICK PS

Interesting that someone whose biography and work is thus would do such "violence and violation" to the very written Word of two faiths -- Judaism and Christianity.

But such is the work of "liberation theologians" -- "liberating" themselves (and, so sadly, others) from the constraints and commendments of any Scripture that proclaims they are bound to act in any right and proper way in obedience to a "Father" God who presumes them to tell them that He is "the way, the truth and the life [and that] no one comes [into heaven] except through [Him]"!

Their liberation here on earth will certainly make life easier here in so many ways, but it seems -- if one believes the Words the "good Professor" claims to study and teach -- that "their end will be to be cast into and burned in the lake of fire."

"On Faith" panelist Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite is president of Chicago Theological Seminary. She has been a Professor of Theology at the seminary for 20 years and director of its graduate degree center for five years. Her area of expertise is contextual theologies of liberation, specializing in issues of violence and violation.

Just as a geologist is not a rock, a meteorologist is neither a meteor nor a storm front (though some create a lot of wind that means very little), an anaesthesiologist is not a consciousness altering drug and a botanist is not a plant, Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite -- a "professor of theology," theologian and "theologist" -- demonstrates that one should not "count too much" (as Kipling said) with such high placed and sheepskin bedecked folks as she.

After all, just as being ebtynologist does not make a woman a bug, being a theologian does not necessarily make Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite a believer in what she reads and "professes" and propounds upon daily in the hallowed halls of Chicago Theological Institute. She may be a "distinguished professor," but that does not mean she knows how to make proper theological and faith disctinctions consistent with the clear and full counsel of Scripture or to apply those Scriptures to real life.

"The Potter books help children realize that there is good and evil in this world and you should not remain passive in the face of cruelty but name it. In the age of the Internet, kids are subjected to cyberspace teasing and threats that make my son’s third grade experience pale by comparison. The teachers and parents in the Potter books are also imperfect and not always right, but the good ones are on the side of the children and the bad ones are not. This is a critical lesson about community and how values are sustained despite the machinations of the wicked."

Perhaps it is this, but the Bible is all that, so much more and "theologically true," Professor!

"In the making of many books there is much weariness," the Preacher proclaimed!

"Another striking theme of the Potter books is that of death," the Professor professes here. "The villain, as I noted above, is named Voldemort, the wish for death. [SATAN & the DEVIL come to mind as his biblical predecessor!] Good people die in the Potter books, both young and old. The wicked also die, but often are able to subvert plans to incarcerate or even kill them."

"And the Bible tells us, "The rain falls on the just and unjust"!

And Ecclesiastes tells us that "The good and wicked alike prosper, but their end is the same: alla re destined to die!"

"No child growing up in this century is insulated from the violence of war, murder, kidnapping, and a host of other threats to life and limb, both real and fictional," the Professor professes. "Compared to an average weekday night at 7 p.m. on TV, the violence of the Potter books can seem quite tame, but all the same the books present the reality of violence because the adults in the books cannot always shield children and young adults from these threats. Neither can real adults."

Prehaps right again, but even Satan spoke God's Word time and again, but it does not mean the vessel and motive were pure and right and biblical!

Rhus, Professor, your proclamations are not biblical and theological justification but fleshly rationalization! You, distinguished Professor of "truths", have failed to make proper distinctions and proclaim The Truth -- the truth much of the world assumes (and, of course, wrongly so) is what they should expect from a "Professor of Theology"!

"Kids know magic isn’t real—but they know that there is cruelty and downright evil in their world and they often feel helpless and alone," the Professor professes.

And how do they know this? Because biblical history and the biblical record -- the oldest written record of man and woman (besides cave paintings, whos einterpretation is far more dubious than many claim of God's Word) -- tells us so! And tells us what to do in the real world to correct such things! And how we can attain a real perfection, not a literary or celluloid "perfection" that ultimately gets us nothing more than the praise of men and women!

"Community, taking action in the face of wrong, facing the conflict of the need for moral discernment among competing goods, these are the themes of the Potter books and they teach lessons that are very necessary to the growth and development of a moral compass for children in a very difficult world."

And as Ecclesiastes wrote: "All that has happened and been said has happened and been said before!" And that was written thousands of years ago, so J. K., as talented and "visionary" and motivating as she is in her writing, is saying nothing new, Professor. So forgive those people of faith who take seriously that of which you claim to be a "Professor" -- a certain religious text they call God's Word that instructs them that witchcraft and divination is a dark power of the devil whose exercise is in direct conflict with the stated will of the God and Creator of the universe and all therein!

That, dear "Professor," makes the point that being a student or practitioner of any thing does not make one a practitioner. And that, as well, is their "rub" with the whole Harry Potter phenomena: it propogates and encourages the practice and perpetuation of biblically (GOD) prohibited witchcraft, just as do Wicca and other "religions" that claim they are part of the "White Arts" and not the "Dark Arts" (but are none the less anti-biblical and anti-God in their rebellious and rationalized practice)!

"Woe to you, [Professor], you heal the wounds of my people lightly saying 'Peace! Peace" where there is no peace!"

While "Harry Potter" books and J. K. Rowling might, by design or default, "teach" some values and virtues within those stories consistent with Christian values and virtues does not make the basis, context and overall purpose and message of the series and author "Christian" or biblicall defensible.

One need only read Ecclesiastes to recall that both the good and bad people in the world do good things and enjoy wealth, prosperity and the approval of others, even if their ways, means and purposes are ungodly and self-serving.

And (lest we forget) even Satan uses the Word(s) of God in an effort to lure others into a fall, from the angels of heaven to Eve to Jesus during the 40 days -- but even Jesus fought back by proclaiming the fulness of God's Word: "Man shall not live by bread alone but by EVERY Word that proceeds forth from the mouth of God!"

That J. K. and Harry and many a religious "leader" and "theologian" can find in "Harry Potter" and "apply" SOME truth, value or virtue found in Scripture to our modern life does not mean that it is consistent with "the full counsel of God"!

Praise God that J. K. speaks SOME truth (small "t"), values and virtues -- but if only she spoke and wrote "The Truth, The Whole Truth and Nothing By The Truth"!

For "You shall know the truth and 5the truth shall set you free!" Not "some truth" but "the truth"!

And the truth is, "Harry Potter" MIGHT be popular (and it is), MIGHT be a money mill (and it is) and MIGHT be good "Children's Fiction" (and it is, technically, if also not good theologically and, thus, in its overall "morality"), but it is all, as the whole "bread and circuses" spectacle of it all proves time and again, "vanity of vanities and striving after wind!"

"The Preacher has spoken!"

Just an observation:
One of the things I find really odd about hte whole "Harry Potter is Satanic" crowd is that Rowling NEVER portrays wizardry/witchcraft as a religion, but more as an inborn, maybe even genetic ability. Even when Harry didn't know he was a wizard, he inadvertantly did magic.
Sometimes mutations occur and non-magical families have magical children, and sometimes magical families have non-magical children (Squibs).
Hogwarts exists to teach magical children how to control, focus, and use their innate abilities to their best advantage, much like piano and voice lessons do for children with inborn musical talent.

PAGANPLACE: "Too often it's just another excuse to say "Pagans are after your *children!* which is always a great way to get people freaked out against minority groups."

As a Pagan, I don't worry about the Pagans being after my child. ;-)
I do, however, worry about folks like the fundamentalist Christian teacher who told my daughter that her mommy was going to hell. My daughter was 4 at the time, and came home in hysterics.

Have to admit I might have missed out on a good thing, at least for a while, without the too-predictable witch-hunt.

It's really always something: certain types seem to *need* Satanic threats to scare themselves about, people to hate, all the rest.

Too often it's just another excuse to say "Pagans are after your *children!* which is always a great way to get people freaked out against minority groups.

PRIVER: "Banning something is the best marketing strategy out there! Wonder why more folks don't pick up on this? :)"

You have a point there. I find it kind of funny that some of my favorite books, and movies are ones that have been banned hither, thither, and yon.

I actually gained quite a bit of respect for the Dixie Chicks over that incident. Natalie Mains had every right to say what she said, and yes, people who disagreed had every right to boycott. I don't really care a rat's ass about the political opinions of entertainers; I figure theirs are no more authoritative than my own, whether I agree with them or not. (Although I also think Shrubya is an incompetent marionette whose strings are controlled by Cheney and others). But I admired the fact that they refused to apologize for having expressed an honest opinion, and then turned around and recorded "Not Ready to Make Nice." Them girls got balls. I like that in a woman.

As for dating yourself with the uproar over "Only the Good Die Young," I was there too, my sister. I live in South Louisiana, which has large populations of both Catholics and Protestants (most of the Protestants are Baptist). While I don't recall a move to actualy ban it from the airwaves here, I do recall a lot of my friends saying that their parents would not allow them to listen to it - so of course, they listened to it at the homes of friends who did have a copy, or, if they had their own spending money, bought a copy and hid it from their parents. My folks and I have some differences of opinion regarding parenting, but one thing I am thankful to them for is that, while I was not allowed to see movies with profanity, nudity, or buckets of blood, NOTHING was forbidden for me to read or listen to. My mom said that she figured if I was in my bedroom reading books she didn't like or understand, listening to music she considered nothing but noise, at least I was home and safe, and not out getting into trouble.
In high school, I was a huge KISS fan, had every album, posters on my bedroom walls, KISS Army t-shirts, etc. (Dating myslef now, eh?) There is a charismatic megachurch in my hometown where several of my classmates attended. One of them approached me one day and told me that her youth group had been studying about rock and roll, that KISS stood for "Knights in Satan's Service" and that if I played their records backwards, I would hear Satanic messages. She then told me that her church was going to be holding a youth activity in which everyone was bringing all their rock and roll records to burn them, and invited me to come and bring mine. I told her that according to the band's bassist, the name derived from the fact that he used to play in a band called Lips, that my turntable only revolved one direction, and that I wsa certainly not going to ruin the driver by trying to turn it backwards, That I had no intention of destroying expensive records on the say-so of a church I didn't even attend, that I thought burning in effigy was a voodoo ritual (I understood very little about Vodoun then), and that burning vinyl produced toxic fumes, that the air was already polluted enough, and that I didn't appreciate their adding to the problem. It's funny - back then, I was very shy most of the time, but being pushed turned me into the Mouth of the South.

Lepi:

The funniest thing is about all of this is that as soon as anything is banned by someone who thinks it's bad somehow is the surest way to ensure their success.

When the song 'Only the Good Die Young' came out, the fundie folks tried to have it banned by the radio stations, only to have the reverse happen, and Billy Joel made a fortune off of it. So much so that he wrote those folks a very sweet thank you letter kindly asking them to please ban every other thing that he wrote afterwards. (and yes, I just dated myself, but still) You'd think people have learned by now.

Even the folks who went after the Dixie Chicks a few years back (and just because they told the truth!) had to go buy their albums before running them over with a steamroller. :)

Speaking of which, when Dogma came out awhile ago, someone got ahold of some news footage of a protest outside a movie theater, and the best part was that it was Kevin Smith himself, disguised as a protester, protesting his own movie. If memory serves the person doing the newscast was in on it but couldn't tell anyone. How great is that? :)

Banning something is the best marketing strategy out there! Wonder why more folks don't pick up on this? :)

My appologies if my last post was off topic, but if we're determined to ward off magic let's find some real magic doing real damage and empower ourselves against it. I suppose it's a comfort to some to think that this is a Christian country but based on results, it really is a corporate country. That's where all the power is.

I think that the fundamentals vs Harry Potter enthusiasts(or what ever everyone wants to call themselves depending on the topic of the day) is a pointless waste of time. It would be a wondereful world if both sides would point their cannans and google searches at the righ people.

Before the Iraq invasion there were enough news stories (if you looked) debunking the white houses' reasons for the invasian but it's corprate values that buried those stories. Now that is scary magic.

"but these anti-HP folks are aiming at the wrong target; the real threats to children are from TV childrens-show advertisers who want to make kids discontent with what they have and who they are. I hope the concerned Christians will wake up and realize that Rowling's message is a hell of a lot more healthy than that of the cold cereal and candy and toy companies."

Piss Williams I think you have come the closest of anyone to hitting it all on the head. rock on.

Will The Real Magician Please Stant Up?

The most damaging messages come from Advertisers who pay thousands of dallares researching weather or not the kittens eyes should be blue or green to make sure that the most damaging messages are pouring into our subconsious'. "You're not good enough" "your too fat, bald, old." your clothes aren't good enough, you're car isn't good enough, you stink." "Buy more! Consumme more! you need more! You don't have enough yet! You need More! Go get More! You have to have More! You are not HAPPPY yet! GIVE ME YOUR MONEY!

I was a telemarketer for 7 months and not a very good one, but I was shocked at how easy it is to convince people to buy something they don't need or (to be honest) really want. I can now see the pitch and the hook in everything. I see it not just in commercials but on the news,and comeing out or the mouths of poloticians(left and right) I see my friends and family falling for it all the time. They come home with stuff that I know they didn't want and in a week or a month it gets relegated to the back of the droor, closet, garage. but we all line up like zombies to shell out our money, we fill our bags, and trunks then sleep walk home never the wiser, never catching on, and never noticing that there is no happy result, sometimes it's even a little worse isn't it? But aren't those kittens cute. NOW THAT IS MAJIC. It's real and it's happening right now. We've all been a slave to it at one point or another. I advise to anyone to try telemarketing for 4 to 6 months. I hated it, the worst job I ever had, but it breaks the spell. I can see through most of now. It also made me take a close look at what happiness is to me and other ways of finding it. The thing that works the best so far is staying in the moment as much as possible (it takes practice). And it's free. Free! Sometimes, I do find a sort of magic there. a cleaner kind of magic. I won't define it though, it's probrably differnt for everyone.

Jacob,
Harry Potter is not being taught at schols, it's in the school libraries for students to check out and read for pleasure. And certainly no one is teaching school children nutrition by transfiguring broccoli into ice cream. (They only do that on Iron Chef).
The intelligent design proponents want ID taught as scientific fact or at least as a viable scientific theory, when it is not scientific, but religious in nature.
That's a big difference.

PriveR: "I'm surprised that even now there is still so much fear of witches- did those people who want to ban HP ever consider banning Shakespeare?"

Actually, yes. Back when I was a college student, there was a display in the font of the bookstore in the student union of various books that had been banned in various places and times, and the reasons they had been banned. Among them: A Midsummer Night's Dream and Macbeth because they "promoted belief in fairies and witchcraft." The Awakening because it "glorified loose behavior of women." Harriet the Spy because it promoted "lying, spying, and talking back to parents." I kid you not.

"I know folks went after the Wizard of Oz when it first appeared. Or any of those other wonderful stories that have a magical or fantastical element to them? Where does it end?"

It ends with those of us who will not allow others to tell us what our kids should and shouldn't read. Those who don't want their kids to read the books are free to forbid it. I have a friend who owns a bookstore and sets aside books for me that he thinks I might like.

"I especially never understood why some people are so bent on protesting a book or a movie that they've never read or seen."

I never got thatone either. When Scorsese made his film version of The Last Temptation of Christ, a fundamentalist Christian co-worker of mine handed me a flyer from Jimmy Swaggart Ministries about it. The flyer "quoted" scenes and dialogue from the movie as "proof" that it was intended to lead people into the clutches of Satanand that it claimed that Jesus accepted Satan's offer to come down from the cross and live a normal mortal life It asked people to write nasty letters to the local cinema showing the film, to the editor of the local paper, and to Martin Scorsese, to boycott every film that Scorsese had anything to do with ever, and, of course, to make a love offering to JSM for the continuation of God's work. I asked her if she had actually seen this film, and she looked horrified. "Of course not!" I asked her how she knew it was realy that bad if she hadn't seen it, and she said she didn't NEED to see it to know it was bad - just look at what the flyer said about it! I went to see it that night. I had to cross a picket line in front of the cinema to do so. It was beautiful, even though I doubt that Jesus looked much like blond, blue-eyed Willem Defoe. I crossed the picket line again the next night and saw it again, since I was pretty sure I had missed a few things - I always do with films that employ surreal elements. I liked it even more the second time. I actually saw it every night for the week that it played, and I now have it on video.
And the scenes and dialog referenced in the flyer? I never saw them, even though I watched for them to see what their context was in the movie. One was misquoted and deceptively described in the flyer, and the other simply was not in the movie at all. SPOILER: And in the end, Jesus chooses the cross. These people didn't even really know what it was they were protesting because what they had been TOLD they were protesting was not what was actually going on.

Athena: "Oh, and if witches and wizards can really do stuff like in the Rowlingverse, where the heck are my house elves?? In fact, I'd just settle for one. Legolas. :D"

I'll flip you for him.

Ruben Alvarado: "Actually, many dislike Potter because the words used for spells throughout the books are actual Witch's spells."

If you would ask a real witch, you would find that this is not so. Spells are not simply one-word Latinesque utterings accompanied by the pointing of a wand, which shoots out colored light and then causes the laws of nature to be suspended. Witchcraft and magic in the real world are nothing like what's in the books.

"Some might find this realistic; many believe it is a dabbling in the occult. Personally, I'd rather not be calling Satan, but maybe that's just me..."

Witches don't believe in the existence of Satan, so it's a pretty safe bet they won't be calling him. Satan belongs to Christianity.

JJ,

How many times does it have to be said?

Just cause some people who want to ban it *say* Harry Potter is Wicca or Paganism, doesn't mean it *is.*

You should know better.

Frankly, a lot of their language on that is *claiming* they want it banned cause they think it shows a different religion than their own in a positive light..

Gods know what they'd do if it was something that actually had a Wiccan character in it.

What next, are we to start banning all books that don't seem to condemn Jews enough for their tastes, next?

As for the anonymous post:

"What a joke.

This book is not even worth debating on a serious level."

Well, debating it on the book-banning fanatics' level really oughtn't to take so long as it has in our society.

Clearly, though, there *is* plenty of content in there: at least in a civil society where we could be discussing literature instead of fearing devils and burning childrens' books, while accusing people with nothing to do with it of using them for recruitment of children, well...

We could be discussing these books as literature, and as a pop culture phenomenon. Clearly, there's a lot to these books, and what's 'a joke' is that the people claiming to be most 'Concerned for the Children' are the *least* interested in what everyone finds so appealing in there.

Not when they can bleat about how 'baaad' it must be.

Since WICCA/PAGAN is been recognized as a "Belief-faith-religion" in the American Court System(s), AND, If the Harry Potter Series of book(s) is allowed in the class Rooms [PUBLIC] whom has prongs of the Wicca/Pagan pholosophy [as if genuine religion or sincerity], direct or indirect, then one must allow "Intelligent-Design" in the Class Rooms too [Public School Systems in America] and Jesus, which is also religious, faith based & or a Belief system!

So, Harry Potter should be Abolished in Public sectors too! Not just Intelligent design. Any body agree? Ya? Nien? <? :+)/ Ya Ya.

Note: This is recycled Material meant for here but inadverently ended up there. Spooky? Thanks!

ECLATi-ON Law sais,

"NEVER Reward "Evil"

(Jinn, Iblis, False-Prophet(s),Jealousy, Injustice, Sin, Devil, Lucifer, wrong(s)..)

With GOOD!"

The "Eclatarion" definition of Evil is:

Any HUMATE (Citizen Of Space-Ship Earth) Wrong's against ANY Humate Right's! A/k/a Human-Sin, as imagined, known or not known. Or Civil Wrong's against Civil Right's.

Wherefore: Never DIM the Humate Heuristical Immortal Signal of LOVE in any Evilizing behaviors! Since We never die try to be good while you are here in miracle and always be AWARE that WE, never have, nor are WE ever Born in Sin via SEX, a/k/a LOVE!

Important: Because Only Humates here and in other Star System Planets posses G-ds "Frontal Lobes" then All Humate Fetus's that are aborted or even miscarriaged, continue on, as heuristicals, into the Non Gravity Place and hence, never die and always Mature in another Eschatological Possibilities of their unique one immortal self via the Planet Hoppings Phenomonon!

In other words, OURS "HEURISTICAL" [your immortal Soul/Spirit/Photon-Essence/Ghost etc..] can never be destroyed! And WE are LIMITED in number! Example there are only 144 Trillion Star Systems, yet only 1 Trillion Heuristicals that was never created nor was or can ever be destroyed! Yes, Humate Life is expendible, Cheap, but not so cheap that it dies! SO;

When Mom/Dad NEBULAE gave TELL-US Birth, that the MAGMApercolation is already pre-mordially implanted US via the Due-To-Be Holy Cosmic Miracle Machine. In Other Words, WE are Limited in TIME [IT's (g-d, in US, US in IT or as ITSELF) Temperature, not clock or space time] and innately BAPTIZED & PRE-CONFIRMATIONED! Ya Ya, SoAll Pre-Apocalyptic Philosophy and Myth Story's can hit the Cosmic Road , so to speaketh.

BEWHOLD: Your Great Holy No MON ECLAT + "i" in ours system of Miracles, together forever with Source-One! Praise the Holy non Jealous thus a genuine fearless Lord/Almighty/GOD/ Eclat (Creator of the "FIAT-LUX", a/k/a "Let There be Photons" not light) Plus (+) your immortal "i" in the Scheme of IT's Thing.

Note: The "Thing" that Lord Eclat + "i" is all about , goes like this (being the LAW(s) of ITSELF and appearing for US as Nature) for;

"I do the Thing, thus WE have Power, But, if I do not the thing , then "I" + "i" will have zero POWER.." This is why we appear, in miracle, and never manmade Sin! IT (g-d/Eclat) begins with "i" and "I" ends with "i".

Yes, There is LIFE in PHOTONS, not Herbs & Spices, wands, spells & poof-times as so many times preapocalyptically imagined by scared and selfish folk!

Eclati-On(s) know (not just some MUGGLES) that there is no such thing as real Satans/Angels (Good nor Bad), and Eclations know that there is No Such Thing as Hell/Heaven, no such thing as Deity & Supernatural.

If there's anything "Scary" then think "Spooky-Stuff" like our great "PROPHET" and Eclatarion Father Albert Einsyein [pbuh] and revelator of our "Quantum Entanglement" whom is with Eclati once tried to describe to us. This is not mystery.

This is REALITY. A/k/a in Eclati-On as ours TRANSFINITY. Thus Biofinite death is never your , always On, TRANSFINITE death!

This is Your Genuine LORD at IT's best revealing the spiritual interface of ITSELF being for US in IT's Holy Cosmic Realm! This is Zero Bibles/Scriptures & Pagans/Wiccans, Rowlings books etc.. For they are all Man immagined or man made/created, not Eclat made , via their Characters therin and thereof as man writes in them Novel-Stars of theirs.

So, whats all this Hokis Pokus Rukis all about!

Imagine: No more Preapocalyptic Organized religion?!

Imagine: No more POLY Religions & G-ds System(s) and only ONE-RELIGION & ONE-G-D SYSTEM. ONE-BIBLE so to speaketh. A/k/a "OURS-BOOK" where OURS means, One-Universal-Religion-System! OURS. Or "HOUR-BOOK" , "HOLY-ONE-UNIVERSAL-RELIGION". Wow! Imagine a Singularity of Faith, Belief(s) and or Religion and no more Plurality of religion (Pre=Apocalyptic Scourage of Humanity) !

Just "ECLAT + "i" and know that WE are Eternity Avoiding Loneliness in the System of Miracle(s) and Never Sin! Note: There is No Such Thing As SIN! This is Man made, just like All bibles/G-d/Books/man-Made! I think Flying a Kite ia a more realistic phenomonon then a Biblical stair-Way to Heaven or flying on broom sticks!

Imaginations are healthy. Especially when one can make fantasy's come true. But satisfaction is more than meets ones eyes. Yet Man made storys or fantacy's is upto the Lame and or blind to imagine between what is Real & not real! You Go Figure?! Ya Ya.

Praise Me & My MEME of the Universal Holy Cosmic Heart Beat, in and of US-ALL! Together Forever with Source-One!

VOTE (((((( Peace-Love-Rock-n-Roll-n-Rap, Mitt-ROMNEY for PREZ, Ya! )))))))))))

HP books are great. A bit of fun reading for the kiddies that, once again, through endless debate by adults, is having all th fun sucked out of it.

I find it ironic that most of the rabid religious zealots probably ban HP from their lives and homes. The kids of these same people probably go to their friends houses and instead of reading ANYTHING, spend the afternoon killing zombies with their video games.

It's just a book, people. Enjoy it or not.

What a joke.

This book is not even worth debating on a serious level.

I'm amazed just how stupid the world population is, and I'm awed by the way the elite few use this disability to thier favor.

I'm glad J.K.Rowling has done so well and the hype has helped get kids to read more, but she's no E. Nesbit.
All this fear and outcry from fundamentalist Christians has been a marketing gold mine for the publisher. I had trouble getting into the Harry Potter books myself, but I don't see anything negative about the phenomenon.
Matthew Buening and Paganplace, you are both right and you are both wrong. True Christian teachings are not coercive, but those who speak in the name of institutionalized religion can be vicious in their reaction to some kinds of non-conformity.
And now I've heard as much as I can possibly stand about Harry Potter.

Rob,
Didn't read the books did ya?

terra

Ruben Alvarado:

I hate to dissappoint you, but Harry Potter is not full of REAL WITCHES spells...I know because I are one. lol.
They are speaking Latin. If a doctor's script was Latin would it be a spell?

Goodness we speak English, that is unless you are french or German...I would take it they also speak their own language.

Oh and to repeat for the 2000th time..WITCHES DO NOT BELIEVE IN SATAN! It is your's. It's part of your Christian Pantheon, you have it, not us. WE are not Christian. We are the other people...with the Other Gods. Hail Pan!!LOL...
seriously old top...Harry is just a very good series of books by an excellent, imaginative writer. I will hate to say good bye to Harry and the folks at Hogworts.

I bet you don't know what wort means. It means "herb". Hog Herb.

Why does everthing have to be so dark with you folks?

terra

As a UCC clergyperson, I've known of Susan Thistletwaite for a long time and she never fails to challenge, prod, and stretch us in our understanding of the secular and the sacred and the relationship of the same.

Furthermore, I am always dumbfounded by the Christian Right people who rant and rave about the HP books. Are they great books? Maybe, maybe not. But as a former reading director at my daugher's school once said, "Anything that gets children to read and love it, has my support."

I have found the books enjoyable and greatly look forward to the final book. BTW, I also loved the Wizard of Oz when I was young and I think I was also fairly young when I was rather sure that monkeys were not winged and could not fly. For pete's sake everyone, it is a STORY and that is all it is. It isn't a training manual for witchcraft or anything else.

Children are a lot more perceptive about understanding story and myth than we give them credit for.

It is through (though not inclusively) education that one is able to overcome ignorance.