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Dear Dr. Sullivan,
Let me clarify a few things about your posted comment. Did the JW's you work with in your practice explain WHY they were disfellowshipped? As a person well-acquainted with the JW's, there could only be one reason: not repentant of any of the following: fornication, pre-marital sex, theft, etc. And I can assure you that these people were offered help by the caring and trained overseers that attended their individual cases. I've seen it myself hundreds of times. Moreover, I can also assure you they were told what to do IF they wanted to be JW's again. It's their call; no one will force them to do anything they don't want to do; but, IF they CHOOSE to be JW's, they know and understand they have to respect the deepest moral values, not set by any particular individual or religion, but by the Bible itself.

Shawn

yes your right, that when Jesus told his apostles to go and preach the word that there were no Watchtower mags. At that time there wasnt even a complete copy of the Holy Bible!! Does that mean we should not use it today?? The Watchtower mag is just what JWs have always called it "a bible study aid". It explains what JWs believe and give Bible Scriptures to expalin why we belive it. Despite what people think the Watchtower Corp does not control its people like robots! They have never taught anything that they did not give Bible Scripture to back it up. I dont fault other religions for being imperfect, we all are. But I do belive that JWs have the truth about 4 major Bible teachings that I think are the most important.
1:The Trinity.
2: The teaching of Hell fire and what happens to us when we die.
3: The future of the earth and mankind.
4: Should true Christians be involved with the politics and wars of this world.
As for what the Watchtower spends its money on. They spend it on spreading the true teachings of Jesus Christ worldwide, which is what Jesus commanded his followers to do. I hope the next time one of JWs comes to your door you will let them explain what we belive and just not let others tell you what we belive. If you are concerned about what is happening in the world today , all the problems that political leaders cant ever seem to solve, then let one of JWs explaine , from the Bible , what Jehovah's solutions to all these terrible worldwide problems are. Dosent it seem reasonable if a loving God created mankind and the earth, that he cares enough to step in and correct all the injustice we see today??

Well Lady K, what better things does the WT Society spend their billions on? Also The Apostles were the ones who were told to spread the Word "two by two" and "place to place", not house to house, and they were also given clear instruction what they should take with them, and WT publications were not one of them, Infact they didn't take anything because they were speaking with the holy spirit, not their own revision of the Word. As the WT was forced to admit AFTER their prophesies failed several times, they are not divinely inspired and never have been. My question is then,... Who did the Witnesses get their instructions from to go door to door? Also who authorized the new set of instructions given to them in their "spreading the good news"?

Well Lady K, what better things does the WT Society spend their billions on? Also The Apostles were the ones who were told to spread the Word "two by two" and "place to place", not house to house, and they were also given clear instruction what they should take with them, and WT publications were not one of them, Infact they didn't take anything because they were speaking with the holy spirit, not their own revision of the Word. As the WT was forced to admit AFTER their prophesies failed several times, they are not divinely inspired and never have been. My question is then,... Who did the Witnesses get their instructions from to go door to door? Also who authorized the new set of instructions given to them in their "spreading the good news"?

"As a matter of fact they excommunicate approx. 42000 a year, that means they get rid of them so how can it be a cult which is characterized by FORCEFUL membership?"

This is the truly sad part right here. I'm a clinical psychologist with a private practice here in the Bay Area. I knew nothing about the JWs until I treated a few clients who were "disfellowshipped" (essentially excommunicated). The church will shun even their own teenage children, often producing catastrophic emotional damage. The suicide rate for many of these teens is much higher than the general population.

It reminds me of the quote from Steven Weinberg:

“With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil — but for good people to do evil — that takes religion.”

Thanks! to Mr. Engardio for his dedication to this subject. I've been a baptised 'Witness for more than 40 years. I know therefore, that there will always be detractors. Some are poorly informed or mislead, as many prior posts reflect. Others have wicked intentions to mislead others. I'm sure that it has been a difficult task to speak out, as you have. Your DVD is excellent and all honest-hearted people will recognise the truthfulness of it. Then again, proud people of Jesus time, despite his miracles, selfishly rejected him too. However, some did listen and I know you will entighten many honest people by your work. Keep up the good work. As a Canadian, I'm always surprised how Americans always see subjects as relating only to them. Please realise that the American experience potrayed in the film, is only a small part of the world-wide effort Jesus said would preceed the end of human rulership over the earth, to be replaced by peaceful divine rulership of the whole earth. We have been carrying on this work with courage and in peacefully in every country of the world. This is not just a local story! "The good news of the Kingdom MUST be preached in ALL the inhabited earth, for a witness to ALL the nations and THEN the end will come". (Matthew 24:14) Can someone tell me who else is fullfilling this prophecy, because I don't see it?" If they are, why haven't all these "sincere"(?) bloggers shown me, even after all the effort I have put out to come to their homes for over 40 years. I have to conclude that they are like the cowardly, proud and dishonest accusers of Jesus time who preferred to stay in ignorance and influence those around them to do the same. Mr. Engardio has shown honesty and courage. I find it refreshing. Well done!

I'm a "psycho" now? Hmm. I'm not one to accuse of not doing research. It just doesn't hold up - you'll have to take another tack.

I didn't call them a cult. However, the Watchtower corporations do control their people. There is no discussion or debate. Their "elders" have no theological background. They aren't allowed to read, much less engage with, reputable biblical scholarship. Men lacking in even basic pastoral training decide when to cut members off from their family and friends, and these same men get their sermons from New York. Even they are not trusted enough to write their own sermons.

Oh, and I hope that anyone reading this would know the difference between people choosing not to vote and being prohibited from doing so.

Really? I only know them as the Watchtower Corporation. They were called Russellites (after their founder Charles Russell) until the 1930s.

dear Heidi, over 50% of the US population doesn't vote. Are these all JW's? I think not. Do some research before U post. At least the JWs don't vote out of principle. The non JWs most likely out of apathy or ignorance. Why doesn't it bother U that so much of the rest of the population doesn't vote? No one is forced to be a JW. As a matter of fact they excommunicate approx. 42000 a year, that means they get rid of them so how can it be a cult which is characterized by FORCEFUL membership? Also cults revolve around human leaders such as David Koresh, Jim Jones etc etc. The only name associated with JWs is the name of their God.

The supreme irony to me is that their contributions to the history of civil liberties legislation in the U.S. are not honored in any way in their own congregations. There is no discussion or debate, expressions of individual spiritual calling or questioning or research are forbidden.

The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society has created a free sales force, using fears about a killer God and the end of the world. I am in contact with many recovering Jehovah's Witnesses, and I help people with JW relatives and friends to navigate the minefield of potential problems in dealing with them.

I applaud the results of the JW legal team on civil rights, but they didn't do it for the sake of America, which to them is simply part of the Satan-controlled "system of things." The most recent accomplishment of their legal team was to pay off a cluster of child abuse cases - with a gag order.

I agree with the sentiment about ideological fervor, but it's just blatantly false the JWs do not feel "threatened by those who choose a different path." Ask their non-JW family members about that.

JWs don't even vote, and they are forbidden to run for office. Not exactly the banner group for the Constitution...

(See blog posts on JWs by clicking on my website link above.)

The Bible clearly says that in the last days there would be "false prophets" who attempt to lead astray a multitude. Apparently these false prophets are the Jehovah's Witnesses. They said the world would end in 1875, 1914, 1919, 1945, and 1975. The Holy Catholic Church is praying for all of the souls trapped in this destructive cult. May God have mercy on you all.

Stinking and unbelievable?? Shortsighted? No, Dr Brain, I think its longsighted. Two major world wars were started and fought, in this century alone, by so called Christian nations. Christian killing Christians, Muslims killing Muslims. Throughout history wars have been fought in "the name of God" and its still going on today!

Jesus clearly stated in John 13:35 "By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselfs". Why do you take offense to that? Why is that so unreasonable to you? JWs take those words to heart and act upon them. JWs do not kill their fellow man for political reasons.

Unbelievable! Un-stinking-believable! This blog is a classic example of how utterly shortsighted, illogical and unreasonable most people are! Trying to reason with the average Joe Sixpack on this planet is like trying to catch the wind. Impossible! However, there is a bright side to all of this! Yes folks, there is! At least we all have the God-given RIGHT to be shortsighted, illogical and unreasonable! And no one has the right to force us to use common sense, which, by the way, is no longer common practice! Any orginization that contributes to these rights and freedoms and won't go behind my back to force me to use common sense I say, "cheers" and I'll drink to that!

Oh, btw, would you stinking bloggers learn how to spel correctly? Please? If you can't spelle correctly you probably can't think correctly either.

I dont understand all this upset about JWs not joining the military. How many Americans talking about patriotism and critiziing JWs do you see joining the armed forces now. Why arent millions of people joinging the military and going to Iraq to support George Bush's policy there?? Dont they love their country enough to fight for it?? You critizied JWs for not joining the military and going to war for this country, but when you dont want to go to war for something you dont agree with, YOU dont. JWs have the same right!! JWs are active world wide and no JW in any country will go to war and kill other JWs or any other person, on the whims of the polictics of the day. Isnt that what Jesus said the identifing mark of his follower would be "you have love amoung yourselfs" If ALL religions and their professed members would follow Jesus command to be no part of the world and to have love amoung themselves (especially those who profess to be Christians!) what a better world it would be. All the Billions of dollars spent on war could be spent on better things.

Acts 5: 37 - 39 "After him Judas the Galilean rose in the days of the registration, and he drew off people after him. And yet that man perished, and all those who were obeying him were scattered abroad. And so, under the present circumstances, I say to you, Do not meddle with these men, but let them alone; (because, if this scheme or this work is from men, it will be overthrown; but if it is from God, you will not be able to overthrow them;) otherwise, you may perhaps be found fighters actually against God."

Luke 6: 22 & 23 "Happy are you whenever men hate you, and whenever they exclude you and reproach you and cast out your name as wicked for the sake of the Son of man. Rejoice in that day and leap, for, look! your reward is great in heaven, for those are the same things their forefathers used to do to the prophets."

Acts 5: 29 "We must obey God as ruler, rather than men."

John 13: 35 "By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves."

Matt. 5: 44 "..Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those persecuting you."

Acts 15: 29 "to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you!"

all i have to say is that even the children have the right to decide if they want a blood transfusion or not. If they do well then they will get one. most of the time children have to speak for them selves. No JW forces anything on anyone.

I don't get it. If U all hate the Witnesses why are U allegedly all bent out of shape if they happen to die by refusing blood transfusions? Seems to me if U hate them then their dying would make U happy. Your hypocrisy is clear. Don't think that any objective reader of these posts with minimal intelligence believes U when U say,"we care" or "we pray for U." Try getting a life instead of drowning yourselves with bitterness & negativity & hatred.

Every one of us has a common problem. We are all in the "same boat". The Circle Line Tour lasting 70 -80 years(with good health) leads to our quick demise. So, we all die.
No politician, doctor or evolutionary philosopher can change that. They cannot help you in that regard. Why live your life for them? Only the Creator can bring us back(resurrection). He has made arrangements to do this. He has in the Scriptures established a legal basis for helping us out. Most Christians cannot explain that legal basis. We seem to honor human political documents and declarations more than we respect the legality of establishing a "new world" outlined by the Creator. The good news is that GOD WANTS to restore earthly peace and cleanness.
I cannot understand why WE ALL don't want that, especially if God wants that. Wait! The Bible shows that living by God's moral guidelines is a requirement for the new life. Oh, that must be the problem. Collectively men have a problem submitting to Bible standards even when time has proven that His principles applied can make us relatively happy even now (hey, I'im not happy about my COPD and imminent "sleep" either, hence the "relatively happy" comment) . The morality problem stretches from the family unit to world leaders. It's getting ugly out there, watch the news. What if the grapes of wrath are ripening now?
I have knocked on thousands of doors, the last ten years of poor health could have excused me from that (even in my own mind). I have met many people, talked and researched varied topics , much of it scientific, while focusing on man's only hope, the Kingdom(you know , Jesus , Prince of Peace). If you are unkind to me, I still love you(sincerely).
Jehovah loves all of you. Please take this seriously before the much awaited end of bad religion and human violence. There's good fruit and bad fruit. Remember that even good fruit has blemishes. Jesus said "remove the rafter from your own eye before removing the straw from your brother's eye" (some of these posts go too far).
Everybody out there, don't stop thinking, engage in reason, think of what YOU would do if you were God, if you had the power.

There are all types of people in this world who join groups or classify themselves by not joining a group. There are many ways we can label ourselves, but when it comes down to it we are all human beings. Despite your religious or non-religious beliefs can anyone recognize the good in the Witnesses without coming on these sites and tearing them to shreds?

They use their own gas, time and money to print and distribute literature with decent and moral values. They teach messages that are beneficial to society whether you believe in God or not. Yes, all people are imperfect, and yes, you may have a story that involves a Witness doing something awful, but if you ask them, they will agree that's awful. We do not wish harm on anyone.

Despite any differences, what matters is the true message, to love your neighbor, to not kill, steal, rape, lie, so on and so forth. Those principles don't need a label.

Witnesses believe we are all family under one God, and that one day there will be no religious divisions. How's that? A world where one faith isn't so blinded by passion that they feel justified bombing members of another faith. Isn't that alone a wonderful hope to consider? Isn't that how true religion should be; it should motivate it's followers to love their neighbor and to never harm them no matter what their racial, social or other differences.

I am a human being, like anyone else. I have dealt with stresses in life, dealing with issues that are Witness and non-Witness related, family with mental illness, family who has been in the military, family who has been assaulted and raped, molested, kidnapped, family on drugs, family consumed with materialism, pregnancy outside of wedlock, divorce, separation, adoption, all kinds of things. My life has been effected in many ways by the awful things of this world, and I have seen suffering and I have suffered.

What I know and believe is if every individual in this world resolved to truly live by the Bible most all of the traumatic things that I've experienced would not have happened. And, when the earth one day is restored to its full potential, which so obviously is going to waste and being ruined on a daily basis now, I will live to see ill family members well, and people living in real peace and security with true happiness and without the nonsense and bickering over is it annoying for my neighbor to knock on my door and why do these people try to help others learn that the world could be a better place if we all learned to stop fighting and stop killing eachother.

If you don't want to live in a world with peace and love, if you're not willing to say I'll support that kind of world at all costs, even through ridicule, beatings and death, then please, at least be kind and send them on their way. We all have enough garabage and stress to deal with from this world without the negativity of trying to bring a free message of peace and hope to your door and having you take a crap on it.

David

Why are you curious as to why Jehovah's Witnesses discuss this documentary because it was produced by an openly gay man (Joel P Engardio)? What does that fact have to do with the quality of the documentary? Mr Engardio is not claiming to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses is he?

Seems as though you, like a lot of others posting here, are just looking for something negative to say.

The crisis of abuse withing the JW organization continues to be covered up with members/exmembers often defending or pretending the problem does not exist. It is hard to comprehend how some people can live with such denial in the face of facts. Over fifty countries around the world have watched documentaries about how Jehovah's Witnesses cover up abuse. You can watch several of them on the silentlambs website. Every major news source across the USA has reported in the JW abuse crisis. Just last month the AP run a national story entitled "Jehovah's Witnesses Settle Abuse Cases." You can read the story at this link, http://www.silentlambs.org/APpresscoverage.htm Yet there are those that continue to say there is no proof. When victims come forward, media reports it around the world, and the church is forced to pay huge settlements to victims, there is basically not much more "proof" that can be offered. For those that wish to remain in the dark perhaps it is better to not offer a light. To anyone else reading this, please educate yourself about abuse and never allow a religion to tell you what to do if your child is abused.

silentlambs

It's amazing to me to read all this JW bashing with such fervor, people who have fought not just for their own freedoms, but for every US citizen. Even the ones who are making billions with internet porn, beastiality, child porn, abortion, sexual perversions, etc, etc.

why aren't you in a rage about that? At least they are using their freedom of speech to help America, to help every citizen of this world to be better people. Law abiding, tax paying, road building upright citizens. I'm not saying they're perfect, and neither do they, but if they're so judgemental why are they taking 'their cartoon time'...their family time to come speak to you.

It's because they are putting their obligation to love God and neighbor, before loving themselves. Shame on all of you. Go on a crusade against something that really matters, starving USA citizens, wife and child abuse, pornography. JW's are doing that all over the earth, waging a war by teaching people to have morals and good principles of living. And they have fought for your right to stand up against injustices and to be an activist. They've earned your admiration.

If the Witnesses have 'the truth", why would they want to silence their critics, or those that use their own words against them?

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/13163/watchtower-shuts-down-quotes-website

Notimportant,

I'm assuming you're an adult. Stop acting like such a victim. JWs are frequently criticized because they take a hostile perspective on other faith traditions and harass people at their homes. Others criticize them because they martyr their children rather than provide them necessary blood transfusions. It is actions, not theology, we take issue with.

May God bless you!!!

Know that Christians all over the world are praying for you!

SALLY:

With your comments (as well as the others that will inevitably follow), I will rest my case.

"Fire at will!"

...So much for "discussion."

Notimportant,

How very odd that when your church is exposed for the hurt it has inflicted you see that as strengthening your faith. How very sad. I will pray that you accept Jesus into your life and recognize the Watchtower Corporation as the false prophet it is.

Good day,

Running dialog, debate or discussion consists of a group of people who, with objectivity and reason, seek an understanding of another person's viewpoint. Right?

Bearing this in mind, I would like to open up the following topic for discussion: I'd like anyone to address, free from bias, opinion or emotion, why it is that a group of people who 1.) Teach doctrine and principle from the scriptures 2.) Try really hard to live by the example of Jesus 3.) Don’t smoke, abuse alcohol or drugs 4.) Will not take up arms (that is, they refuse to kill people for any reason) 5.) Are uninvolved in politics that divide entire populations 6.) Refuse to pledge their allegiance to anything other than God himself. (Think of what it means to "pledge your allegiance" for a second...) 7.) Abide by the law 8.) Are completely unified 9.) Friendly 10.) Respectful 11.) Peaceful 12.) Considerate and 13.) Loving . . . are spoken of in such a malevolent way?

These are all good things, right? Any other group that called itself 'Christian' and could achieve these things should be the envy of, and example to all of the world's religions, should they not?

To those who readily believe the many lies regarding Jehovah's Witnesses: You have been misinformed. If you choose to see for yourself, you CAN see for yourself. Simply ask any one of them.

To those whose aim it is to confuse, to diffuse and to stumble: I'd like to thank and congratulate you. You prove scripture and strengthening my faith. (John 15:18, 25) Continue to do so, and you will draw people who say to themselves "Why does everyone roll their eyes when you mention Jehovah's Witnesses?" The true God is looking for honest-hearted people to worship him. (John 4:23) Those with kind hearts will be irresistibly drawn to the aforementioned qualities. Good things. Jehovah’s Witnesses have good news – lots of it; if you want it. Those who continue to spew lies will (like so many others who exercise their freewill in choosing to do what is bad) reap what they sow.

Go to the web, if you must. Go to the message boards. Read what they say about Jehovah’s Witnesses. And then, speak to any one of them (or simply observe them) and judge whether or not this person matches the insidious characterizations described there.

Jesus said “My sheep will listen to my voice.” Speak to one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Really listen and then decide for yourself.

www.watchtower.org

Good day,

Running dialog, debate or discussion consists of a group of people who, with objectivity and reason, seek an understanding of another person's viewpoint. Right?

Bearing this in mind, I would like to open up the following topic for discussion: I'd like anyone to address, free from bias, opinion or emotion, why it is that a group of people who 1.) Teach doctrine and principle from the scriptures 2.) Try really hard to live by the example of Jesus 3.) Don’t smoke, abuse alcohol or drugs 4.) Will not take up arms (that is, they refuse to kill people for any reason) 5.) Are uninvolved in politics that divide entire populations 6.) Refuse to pledge their allegiance to anything other than God himself. (Think of what it means to "pledge your allegiance" for a second...) 7.) Abide by the law 8.) Are completely unified 9.) Friendly 10.) Respectful 11.) Peaceful 12.) Considerate and 13.) Loving . . . are spoken of in such a malevolent way?

These are all good things, right? Any other group that called itself 'Christian' and could achieve these things should be the envy of, and example to all of the world's religions, should they not?

To those who readily believe the many lies regarding Jehovah's Witnesses: You have been misinformed. If you choose to see for yourself, you CAN see for yourself. Simply ask any one of them.

To those whose aim it is to confuse, to diffuse and to stumble: I'd like to thank and congratulate you. You prove scripture and strengthening my faith. (John 15:18, 25) Continue to do so, and you will draw people who say to themselves "Why does everyone roll their eyes when you mention Jehovah's Witnesses?" The true God is looking for honest-hearted people to worship him. (John 4:23) Those with kind hearts will be irresistibly drawn to the aforementioned qualities. Good things. Jehovah’s Witnesses have good news – lots of it; if you want it. Those who continue to spew lies will (like so many others who exercise their freewill in choosing to do what is bad) reap what they sow.

Go to the web, if you must. Go to the message boards. Read what they say about Jehovah’s Witnesses. And then, speak to any one of them (or simply observe them) and judge whether or not this person matches the insidious characterizations described there.

Jesus said “My sheep will listen to my voice.” Speak to one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Really listen and then decide for yourself.

www.watchtower.org

Angie,

I'm so sorry to hear that you have chosen the path to hellfire. Please know that Allah loves you and wants you to escape from Christianity. To become a Muslim, the only true religion, please do the following:

* Officially convert by pronouncing the shahadah (pledge of conviction of faith) in Arabic thus: "Ash HaduAllaa Ilaaha Il-lallaah Wa Ash Hadu Anna Muhammadar Rasullulah" which means "I bear Witness that there is no deity but Allah and I bear witness that Muhammad if His Messenger". The pledge is to be taken in front of at least two adult Muslim witnesses.

* Take a Muslim name

* Take up a basic course on Islam, preferably before the conversion.

May Allah bless you on your journey!! We're all praying for you!!

:)

Dear Luke:
What you don't understand is, Jesus will return to take back the earth. And what you also don't realize is that when he returns there won't be time for you to ask questions.
He will return in a blinking of an eye, quickly, and there won't be any time to Get ready or ask for forgiveness.

He has sent his desciples amongst the people and yet you have rejected Him. You have had your chance to only receive him as lord and savior. No one ever said you had to be apart of a clan, cult, specific denomination. That is between you and God. As long as you worship him in spirit and in truth and the Holy Spirit will direct you to the righ congregation to worship. I don't know why people stray from Christ because of past experiences and bad things that have happened in the world.

When you got your first bad grade in school, did you drop out and say, OH I'M NEVER GOING BACK TO SCHOOL AGAIN" or did you say Oh well better next time. Ok.

Simply stated, Dear God, I pray to you now to show yourself strong and Lord of my life. I repent of all known and unknown sin in my life and I ask for your forgiveness. I want to become a child of God and I want you to come into my life now. In the Name of Jesus Christ. Just saying that simple prayer and believing in your heart you shall be saved and your name will be written in the Lambs book of Life.

And you say saved from what, I say saved from the Pitts of Hell where there will be wailing and nashing of the teeth and a constant lake of fire. With no way out. I mean what harm could it cost. I mean you will go to the same house you live in, drive in the same car. What do you have to lose by accepting Jesus as lord. Nothing at all. You only have Life to Gain. I mean think about. If you were saved and jesus were to return tomorrow. You would be ok. but if you weren't and then you realized "oh my gosh, all I had to do was be saved and receive jesus and I could have avoided burning forever ETERNITY.Why wouldn't you want to be saved. Forget the whole going to church bit, I am not talking about religion.

the Son of God and Son of Man and Light of the World, Prince of peace, El Shadaai. Jehovah jireh, Jehovah Raffa, Jehovah Tsidkenu, Jehovah Mikeddesh, Jehovah Shiloh, Jehovah Shamma, Jehova Nissi, Lily of the Valley, Bright and Morning Star, the Great I Am, The God of More Than Enough, The Yaweh, the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords, The Beginning and the End,

What people fail to realize is that the "Separation of Church and State" was meant to keep the government out of the churches. Basically giving us the right to worship and say what we please w/out being threatened or disregarded. However it was not meant to keep the church out of the government. People are so mistaken about this that it is pathetic. How can the church be out of the Government when the darn government was founding on basic biblical principles. Look at the consitution and read it clearly. Don't be fooled by the quote "Separation of Church and State" that term has totally been thrown around under false pretenses.

"How many journalists do you think would hop on the scandal of JW's housing pedophiles? And I don't mean bottom dwelling scum like yourself, I mean people who deal with facts. So where's the smoke? Where's the fire? Where's the story?"

Well, since you asked:
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/05/10/ap3709733.html

To those who would chastise JW's for not voting, reciting the pledge, or serving in the military:

I cannot imagine not voting. I looked forward to being able to register to vote on my 18th birthday more than I looked forward to being able to legally buy and drink alcohol. I don't understand how voting could be seen as a denial of or conflict with faith, and, IMO, if you don't vote, then you really shouldn't gripe when things don't go to suit you. But the fact remains that voting is not a legal requirement for citizenship, and JW's do have the right to abstain from voting and still retain all the rights od citizenship.

Recitation of the pledge is also not a legal requirement. I abstain because I object to the addition of the words "under God" back in the 50's. The country I live in is NOT one nation under God, so why would I pledge allegiance to a nation that does not exist? When they remove those words, I will recite the pledge again. So I really can't fault them for that.

As for service in the military, people refuse to enlist for many reasons, religion beingone of them. My conscience would never allow me to enlist, because I could not kill a stranger on command. I cannot kill for ideological reasons. If you throw a punch at me, I will throw one back. If you come into my house and put my child in danger, I will remove your gonads via your nostrils and feed them to you. But I will not go into your country and kill you because you worship a different god or follow a different political ideology, or have oil, precious stones, or other resources that I want for myself. So I can't fault them for that either.

As for the "necessary annoyance" of door-to-door evangelism, for whom is it necessary? I certainly don't require it. Do I find it annoying? Yes. I dislike the idea of perfect strangers coming to my home and disrupting my day in order to inform me that I am worshipping the wrong gods. It smacks of arrogance. I have attempted, however, to engage those who have come to my door in a fair exchange of ideas (I'll let you tell me about your faith if you let me tell you about mine), and have had no takers. So now I just answer the door skyclad when I see that it's them.

If the idea is that my putting up with it is necessary because of the First Amendment, wrong again. The First Amendment gives everyone the right to practice their faith, but the Fourth Amendment means (among other things) that they aren't allowed to trespass to do so. If you want to stand on a street corner and hand out copies of the Watchtower, fine. But I have had them placed in my mailbox after I said "No thanks" and shut the door. Putting anything other than US mail in a mailbox is a federal offense.

Jehovah's Witnesses undoubtedly enjoy property tax exempt status on their real estate, right? If so, they are hypocrites to claim they separate church and state. Sounds like they only separate church and state when it's convenient. What about special postage rates? How much do ordinary taxpayers subsidize your mailings?

As with Catholicism, Judaism, and Islam, "JWism" suffers from the magic of "pretty wingie talkie thingies" and the "demons of the demented". These "spirits" are simply mythical tinkerbells in another religion invented by humankind for humankind evolved from the sayings and ways of the ancients e.g. Hittites, Babylonians, Egyptians, Macedonians.

http://www.watchtower.org/e/20060115/article_01.htm

And to Silent Lambs:

Are you still circulating that same trash? I heard about your garbage when the confession wave against Catholic Priests broke.

And since then anyone who would like to bring down the JW's with proof can certainly do so.

You yak about hidden files and cover-ups, saying that it is the organizations responsibility to prosecute pedophiles. So when your co-worker steals your cell phone your employer has to pay court costs? I think not!

As a former member, I happen to know that at the voice of even a single testimony you can never EVER hold a position of responsibility in the congregation again. Period. That means you will never be entrusted with the care of children through any church function. And those secret files you rant about are meant to keep people from from hopping congregations and repeating their conduct.

How many journalists do you think would hop on the scandal of JW's housing pedophiles? And I don't mean bottom dwelling scum like yourself, I mean people who deal with facts. So where's the smoke? Where's the fire? Where's the story?

Jehovah's Witnesses are fine, I made out with one once, or maybe she was Mormon...I don't remember. I like engaging people especially when it comes to God. As an atheist, I like to bring some chatty folk into my cold, dark universe. I wonder though, if Jesus intended so many people to think so many things about him...and I hope he does return, not because I can't wait for my eternal damnation, but to offer some clarity to the people I deal with on a daily basis.

To the people saying JW's are derelicts to society because they don't bear arms:

If one actually opens up one of those insidious Watchtowers you'll find that they are active in almost 300 countries. For the logically impaired, that means that just about any military action by any country would pit JW's verses JW's on the battlefield.

One might consider that duing WWII a lot of good Catholics and Protestants chose to butcher each other on French, German, Italian, and African soil for King and country - some of them wore German grey, some of them wore olive drab.

You think they are still grinding it out at the Pearly Gates?

It is interesting when a former member promotes a faith they personally reject on moral grounds. JWs use their court victories to silence children that have been abused within the faith, disown abuse victims, and treat family members as if they were dead. Yes, it is their religious freedom that allows their clergy to declare "Ecclesial Privilege" to protect pedophiles from being convicted with church records. The JW lawyers proudly go to court to defend the religious rights of child molester members while forgetting the rights of the children they hurt. Yet JWs financed, promoted, and openly supported the author of this article in his totally biased promotional JW endorsed film. It is sad when money can buy you accolades while children suffer. Perhaps completely obtuse when the bird seed of their demonology (JWs believe gay people will be killed by God) is used to sell their twisted representations.

It is interesting when a former member promotes a faith they personally reject on moral grounds. JWs use their court victories to silence children that have been abused within the faith, disown abuse victims, and treat family members as if they were dead. Yes, it is their religious freedom that allows their clergy to declare "Ecclesial Privilege" to protect pedophiles from being convicted with church records. The JW lawyers proudly go to court to defend the religious rights of child molester members while forgetting the rights of the children they hurt. Yet JWs financed, promoted, and openly supported the author of this article in his totally biased promotional JW endorsed film. It is sad when money can buy you accolades while children suffer. Perhaps completely obtuse when the bird seed of their demonology (JWs believe gay people will be killed by God) is used to sell their twisted representations.

"Jehovah’s Witnesses are moral conservatives who only compete in the marketplace of ideas. They attempt to persuade -- not impose -- their beliefs at your door. If you say “no thanks,” they won’t go behind your back and amend the Constitution to suit their world view."

And this is exactly what the extremist ACLU is doing imposing their world view down the throat of others using the might of the government behind the peoples back.

Mike - They withhold medical care from their children. Shouldn't that be an issue of public concern?

Perhaps. However, the less the government inserts itself into people's personal lives, the better. We could make the argument that indoctrinating children in intolerant religious beliefs is harmful (I believe it is), yet there is no way the government would get away with removing children for their own good from such families. In the same way, religion through government action has no business imposing its "morals" concerning any number of things, including sexual practices, abortion, or school prayer. Unfortunately, the latter imposition appears to be far more tolerated in the public mind than the former.

I feel for those children who don't get the medical care they need. When I was a child, I was good friends with two twin brothers. Their parents were Christian Scientists who believed prayer was all that was needed. The mother was especially religious. One of the brothers got an appendicitis. Instead of taking him to the hospital, they prayed until it was too late. His appendix ruptured, he got peritonitis, and died. Every evening after that his father climbed up to the ridge line and played his bagpipes to the dying sun.

Tragic? Yes. Yet I'm still hesitant to let the government interfere.

You tell em Jacob!

I'm sorry, Linda, I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree. I don't think it is ever the right of a parent to withhold life saving medicine from their children. As a parent of a child with leukemia this issue touches me personally. I can't imagine being a JW and having a child with leukemia -- knowing that your child has a very limited chance of success without blood. I don't think a loving and just God would ever make these requests from his people. God wants the best for his children -- including blood transfusions when they are necessary.

Mike,
As any parent would do, the JWs invoke their right to protect their children as they see fit. I don't want to debate those rights as they vary from parent to parent just as an individuals' depth of belief varies. I view the JWs belief of blood being holy as their right. Knowing death WILL result is a lack of faith based on what doctors say. Doctors are not gods and they should not be considered as such.
Pertaining to fighting in a war to defend America, I would never encourage either of my children to participate in killing another human regardless of why. Should they defend themselves personally? yes when confronted with immenent unavoidable mortal danger. This is human nature. To engage in killing another based on a political concensus of opinion is not justification to kill another human being.

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=ae28197b-1291-43b4-b4c4-79d4938557a4&k=12571

Very sad story.

Mike,

While that is true you can be rest assured that not a single JW has died for our freedoms fighting for America. As conscientious objectors, they didn't even fight in a war in which the enemy was putting them in concentration camps. No, those poor JWs suffering in the Nazi camps had to wait for the Russians and Americans to save them -- they weren't getting any help from their own.

Linda,

No, I think most of us here commend the JWs for their political action work. They have been instrumental in changing public policy and establishing constitutional precedent. They, in fact, have had more influence on American politics than groups many times their size. What is troubling though, is their refusal to give blood transfusions to their children even when they know doing so will result in death.

These posters don't want to learn the facts about the First Amendment as it pertains to religious beliefs nor how the JWs contributed to this freedom in America. Just another inconvenient truth?

It is true. Most of the First Amendment cases heard in the Supreme Court were defended by a Jehovahs Witness, Hayden Covington, living in Cincinnati, Ohio. He won every case he defended. Hayden Covington was not born into the church, being a lawyer he was convinced by the truth. Jehovahs Witnesses are honorable people. They are criticized by many but they keep on marching. Organized religion is considered oppressive mainly because it is not simple to understand and most people don't want to study and learn. Like the global warming issue of today, religion is the ultimate inconvenient truth.

Maurice Beck,

They withhold medical care from their children. Shouldn't that an issue of public concern?

I've been reading these posts and I'm surprised at the intolerance for a group that poses no threat to our open society. Most of you know that I can be scathing in my indictments of intolerant groups that seek to impose their "god-given" beliefs on everyone else. I admit that the Jehovah's Witnesses have some very strange beliefs, but their right to those beliefs is absolute. Of course, we are free to eviscerate those actual beliefs, but not the right to believe them.

As Mr. Engardio points out, compared to the Christian Right, the Witnesses are rather benign. They are much like the Amish in western Pennsylvania. Of course, the Amish don't even proselytize. Let’s cut these folks some slack.

sarah - The only thing I know is that they don't vote but they take advantage of every government program there is.

They pay taxes and are citizens of the U. S., so they enjoy the same rights as every other citizen.

Jovevz:

What is wrong with you? What are you ever saying on this blog? You make no coherent sense. Your writing hurts my eyes.

Thank Jesus Christ we have the freedom to avert our eyes. I mean, thank the Constitution.

If Jehovah is God. Who is Elohim? Why aren't you called Elohims Witnesses?

Nygal, I think you'll find many people who object to the JWs and their theology. When people discover that they withhold blood transfusions from their children (resulting in hundreds of deaths every year) and will shun those who have been excommunicated, most people will rightly consider the JWs to be the cult they truly are. Religion should be about bringing families together -- the JWs have a very long history of tearing families apart, with family members shunning each other. It is very sad and quite unlike the teachings of Jesus Christ.

I'm curious why the JWs are jumping onto this documentary when it was produced and directed by, Joel P. Engardio, an openly gay man in San Francisco. I guess they are willing to use the press when it suits them. Pretty typical.

As a practicing JW, I must say I expected all the bashing. But just for the record, we don't avail ourselves of all types of government serves like parasites. I, and many of my Christian brothers and sisters, work hard and pay taxes. It would be an abomination to be lazy and not work, or cheat the government of taxes that are rightfully owed. Jesus said to "pay Cesar's things to Cesar," and that's what we do. We knock on your door because Jesus said at Matthew 24:14 that the preaching work would continue through all the inhabited Earth and then the end would come. The end hasn't come yet, so we are under scriptural obligation to continue this preaching work. But I gotta tell you, I don't feel obligated. I feel refreshed when I go knocking on my neighbors' doors to tell them the good news of God's Kingdom and all the blessings it will bring. I love spreading a message of hope. Also, a lot of people believe that because we stand firmly for our beliefs that we hate them for theirs. We don't hate you; we just don't agree with you. Patrick, neither I nor any other JW has the right to judge you; that job belongs to Jehovah God and his son Jesus Christ. Love motivates us to annoy you on a Saturday morning, not smarmy superiority or a desire to judge you.

Jim, no one holds you as a JW against your will. I have friends who have left and I still love them dearly. No, we don't associate anymore, but it's not because I shun them. We have nothing in common. They have chosen to return to lifestyles that go counter to my beliefs. I don't smoke so I don't hang out with smokers. I don't go to clubs, so I don't have anything in common with people who do. And if my daughter decides one day that she does not want to be a baptized publisher, guess what, she's still my daughter and I will love her with all the intensity I do now. I gave birth to that little knucklehead and I will always be there for her. Will I be disappointed? You bet. But no one forced me to serve Jehovah and I can't imagine forcing her to do that. I came to love and appreciate His loving kindness in my own time, and i grew to make Him my best friend. Why would I force her to love someone, even God? I am always stunned by the amount of hatred, contempt and misinformation heaped on JWs. We're human just like you, so please give us a break.

Interesting. When the JH came to my house; I am a Buddhist; the JH judged me and claimed to be better than me, because they do not exercise their constitutional rights too serve in the military or vote for elected officals; in other words participate in the American Experience.

Not voting, or serving their country as the rest of us do, and judging the rest fo us for those actions are the mark of arrogance and not faith.

After speaking with a JH for some time I could easily determine this person was looking for a chink in my happiness, which does not exist, becaue I do not judge any situation including people. No dialogue just looking to say where they think i am less than the JH. SAD

I did point out that the JH like too hit their children and call that punishment; spare the rod and spoil the child; or is it Violence begets Violence? I do not belive in hitting children for any reason whatsoever.

When you have resorted to hitting your own children instead of communicating with your children, you teach your children to respond with violence too every situation in life including the lack of ability to communicate with others. Simple example.

JH not better or worse just what they are, judging others and no better than anyone else.

Mr. Mark, Okay, one more time for the hearing impaired. It doesn't matter what the JW's believe, if the earth is flat, square or duodecahedonal. Who cares how many ways they use the word "plane". It is the fact that they are saying it, and have fought to continue to say it that is the point. Because, they have made it not just theoretically possible to have free speech, they have made it actual. So you ACLU guys can have some precedents to work from. And, if you check the record, the JW's didn't enlisted the aid of the ACLU, and they paid their own legal fees (quite a shock in itself, these days). But that isn't the issue, the issue is that your original post was a smart alecky reply in which you were trying to demonstrate some super ability at logic by playing word games with a couple of people who took their own time and effort to come to your door with no other purpose in mind than to help you. All you had to do was say, "No." For future reference, I found out that all you have to do is ask them to make a note never to bother your address again, and they won't. I have re-read the original piece three times and I can't seem to find the part where Mr. Engardio or the JWs said that you would HAVE to do anything. The fact is that you saw a sequence of letters that spelled "Jehovah's Witnesses" and, in typical Fox News fashion, your brain went into redneck shutdown mode. I might not agree with what they say, or maybe I would, I don't really know or care, but the fact that I can see them walk down a street and freely talk to people gives me a glimmer of hope in this nation of vanishing liberty. If it helps any, think of the JWs as the canary in the coal mine.

It is interesting that one can easily neglect one's responsibility or service to the Republic (such as: vote, pledge allegiance and/or join the Armed Forces etc.) but still willing or can demand the right to become a citizen of a Republic and reap the benefit of it.

I cannot really believe it. So, are they really citizens or merely parasites to the Republic?

If they are citizens, why don't they pledge allegiance to the Republic?

If they are not citizens, why do they reap benefit from the Republic?

Whom do they pledge allegiance to? Whose citizens are they?

My roommate in college was a Jehovah's Witness--I was a bisexual Wiccan. Remarkably, we got along fine. We both had a very live-and-let-live attitude, and if a few Watchtowers ended up on my side of the room, I didn't care that much, and she never made a big deal out of it.

Believe it or not, the only thing we actually argued over in six months of living together was the prohibition against eating blood. I was perfectly willing to accept a prohibition against blood transfusions, and even concede a metaphorical correlation between transfusions and "eating blood". But she insisted that they were the same thing *biologically*, which is an argument you don't want to make to a Biological Anthropology major.

We probably argued that one for two or three hours before we settled on some compromise wording that left us both feeling like we'd won. :) But it gave me an interesting perspective on the issue, and I never got tired of listening to her explain her beliefs.

Mr. Engardio,

When you state the first amendment to the Constitution and quote the freedom of religion, speech, and press, you're missing something.

The actual first amendment is below:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

The real structure of the Constitution uses semicolons; you use a semicolon to connect two independent clauses together into one sentence. The key word here is...INDEPENDENT.

The free exercise clause guarantees against governmental compulsion in religious matters while the establishment clause insures that the government will maintain neutrality towards religion.

It doesn't give the religion the right to pound on doors by the followers to "Spread the Good News."

Interesting article--and I don't want to get into polemics with the anti-religion folks.

But the Jehovah's Witnesses are a cult that hold their members--very much including children--in the grip of a frightening, ultra-judgmental theology. It teaches that there is no salvation outside the Witnesses and that any deviation is the road to certain damnation. The same fate is in store for anyone who refuses to accept their views. It's easy enough for those of us who are outside the cult to laugh, or split hairs, or simply slam the door. But the unsophisticated people who get caught in this morass can find it terribly hard to escape.

Mr. Engardio, you mention that you made the rounds knocking on doors with your parents, and I'm sure that represented a sacrifice in terms of being "different." But the bigger question is how did you find the courage to break with the Witnesses when you became an adult? I am sure that that decision was very soul-wrenching. How did you escape the threats of God's (excuse me, Jehovah's) "wrath" as a backslider? And what--if anything--has replaced the Witness faith for you?

I would divide all the religions in the world into to great camps: Those that entrap and imprison their adherents, their converts, and especially their children in the grip of an angry, punishing Deity, and those that teach their adherents, converts, and especially chidren that God--who/whatever He may be beyond our human understanding--has given each of us the gift to mature and to understand (or not understand) Him/Her/It/Them as our conscience moves us.

I am pleased to live in a country where JWs and others can knock on my door and attempt to engage in a conversation about what they deem to be important matters, and I am free to say no, and neither one of us gets in trouble.

And we can blog about it here, with some even saying things that are harsh, at times bordering on libel, but we are free to do it.

Mr Mark -
Your tale of previous conversations with the JWs is misleading. Just because they were not familiar with Mithras doesn' mean your assertions are correct. As I understand it, the similarities with Jesus are few, and the differences many. There is no consensus among the few Roman-god docs we have (unless you have access to a lot more than I can find!) on his supposed virgin birth, 12 apostles (maybe 'companions'?), or 3-day temporary death. Or at least that the claim of these was incorporated into the legened BEFORE Jesus; there isn't much written about exactly how Muthras was worshipped or what he did before 80 AD, is there?

And the claim that the Bible says the Earth is a circle has been around, and shown to be false, for a long time. Hebrew words have more than one meaning.

You might think Sat AM cartoons are more intelligent, but your brief treatise here doesn't give much credence to your belief, IMHO.

The Jehova Witnesses are OK one visit. It is when they return over and over that they are annoying. Here in Mexico when they found out one of my students speaks English, they pestered him until I helped him make a sign for this door in English that reads: "Dear Jehova Witnesses, thank you for your interest but his home is Catholic so please don't interrupt us." which is a more polite version of the Catholic Church's door sticker that says, roughly translated, "This house is Catholic. We don't accept propaganda from Protestants or any other sect." I find Jehova Witness to be very similar to other evanglical extremists - they are very judgemental, exclusionary and intolerant of others. It's "my way or the highway" with them.

The Jehova Witnesses are OK one visit. It is when they return over and over that they are annoying. Here in Mexico when they found out one of my students speaks English, they pestered him until I helped him make a sign for this door in English that reads: "Dear Jehova Witnesses, thank you for your interest but his home is Catholic so please don't interrupt us." which is a more polite version of the Catholic Church's door sticker that says, roughly translated, "This house is Catholic. We don't accept propaganda from Protestants or any other sect." I find Jehova Witness to be very similar to other evanglical extremists - they are very judgemental, exclusionary and intolerant of others. It's "my way or the highway" with them.

Dear Art M -

I didn't realize that there was a point to the article.

JWs are "moral conservatives?" What do morals have to do with any religion?

Re: First Amendment rights. As a card-carrying ACLU Member, I applaud and support the JW's sticking up for their Constitutional rights. I also have the right to tell them to take a hike. Their right to hold their beliefs - no matter how bizarre or fanciful - is guaranteed to them in the Constitution. What ISN'T guaranteed is that anyone else must accept their beliefs as having a shred of truth to them or that anyone else must hold their tongue when confronted with such drivel.

Free speech is a two-way street.

The Jehova Witnesses are OK one visit. It is when they return over and over that they are annoying. Here in Mexico when they found out one of my students speaks English, they pestered him until I helped him make a sign for this door in English that reads: "Dear Jehova Witnesses, thank you for your interest but his home is Catholic so please don't interrupt us." which is a more polite version of the Catholic Church's door sticker that says, roughly translated, "This house is Catholic. We don't accept propaganda from Protestants or any other sect." I find Jehova Witness to be very similar to other evanglical extremists - they are very judgemental, exclusionary and intolerant of others. It's "my way or the highway" with them.

Tonyo -

Good point.

The only things at war are scientific fact and religious fantasy...and it's an increasingly lop-sided war.

Mr Mark, boy, you sure clever, wow, I guess you should be elected God or something. Except that you totally missed the point of the article. Stick with the cartoons, they suit you.

The last time the JW Duo came aknockin', I decided to engage them for a few minutes:

"What's the biggest problem in the world today?," they asked.

"Religion in all its forms," answered I.

I then said, "Let me guess. You're here to tell me about a god who was born of a virgin, who had 12 apostles, who died and was resurrected after three days and ascended into heaven, right?"

"Yes!," they exclaimed. "So, you've heard about Jesus, then?"

"Actually,' replied I, "I was speaking of the Roman god, Mithras. He was around a few centuries before Jesus, but for some reason, their lifestories sound strangely similar. Why do you think that is?"

No answer from the Witnesses.

Later, I asked if they believed in science. "Well, not everything. Evolution is just a theory, after all," said they.

I produced my dictionary and disabused them of their notion by showing them the meaning of the word when used in a scientific context.

"Well, that' splitting hairs," they said.

"Oh, really?" asked I. "I thought words could have different meanings in different contexts. Let me ask you, have you ever flown on a plane?"

"Sure," came the answer. "Who hasn't?"

"Really?" said I. "How does one fly on a tool used to shave and level wood? You know, a plane...or am I splitting hairs?"

"One more question." I said. "Do you believe the earth is flat? The Bible says the Earth is flat. The Bible says that a tree grew so tall that everyone in the world could see it. How could that happen unless the world was flat and everyone was viewing the tree from the same level?"

"The Bible doesn't say the Earth was flat. The earth is a circle." came the unbelieveable answer.

"No," said I, "The Earth is a sphere...and a circle IS a flat, 2-dimensional figure."

With that I went back to the Saturday morning cartoons in hopes of hearing something intelligent...

A long time ago, during my searching days, I studied with the Jehovah's for a while. Their interpretation of the bible is interesting to say the least, but essentially they are a cult.

Wikipedia says: "Teaching include the use of a personal name for God, appeared more than 7,000 times in the Bible and translated as Jehovah–also Yahweh in English–and the belief that such use is vital for acceptable worship. They believe that Jesus' death was necessary to atone for the sin brought into the world by the first man, Adam, thus opening the way for the hope of everlasting life for mankind. It is also taught that 144,000 people will receive immortal life in heaven with Jesus Christ as co-rulers guiding the rest of mankind to perfection on a paradise earth during the 1000 year reign. Witnesses believe that during the war of Armageddon, which they believe to be imminent, the wicked will be destroyed, and that the survivors of this event, along with individuals deemed worthy of resurrection, will form a new society ruled by a heavenly government and have the possibility of living forever in an earthly paradise."

It's a good thing they only have around 6 million members. Even if all of their dead should be resurrected it should take them a while to overpopulate the world before they all starve to death.

I totally disagree with this:

"The knocking may be inconvenient, but it is a necessary annoyance in a free society."

I don't think it's necessary, I don't want them at my door.

I wonder what the author means by

1) "Our essential freedoms are at war with each other -- a culture war."

and

2) "We are divided by the very principles that defined America."

My apologies, but I don't get either of these formulations. Which freedoms are "at war" with other freedoms? Is freedom of religion at war with freedom of speech? Which American defining principles are now dividing us? Could someone please explain?

The only thing I know is that they don't vote but they take advantage of every government program there is.