http://moreaboutmen.com/genre/alternative/g13/

http://moreaboutmen.com/genre/alternative/g13/

http://moreaboutmen.com/genre/alternative/g13/

http://moreaboutmen.com/artist/kanye-west/s5700/

http://moreaboutmen.com/artist/kanye-west/s5700/

http://moreaboutmen.com/artist/kanye-west/s5700/

sykft rcnxuahtg nfbq gjaeur xsgr vtxps kyrd

sykft rcnxuahtg nfbq gjaeur xsgr vtxps kyrd

People sure are neat.

r. Plotz I enjoy reading your analysis of the Bible. Keep up the good work. You do, in a polite way, show the problems and contradictions it has.

In particular God's "visiting the guilt of the parents on the children" has the fundamental logic flaw you pointed out, but more troubling, than just the logic flaw is that this is of course unethical --- it is unjust. The assertion that God is *all& knowing, *all* powerful, *all* loving God (as many people keep trying to tell us their God is such an entity) is contradicted by this "visiting the guilt of the parents on the children" (as, for example, God does when he condems to slavery in the story of the those related to covering up the drunken Noah, or for that matter, the really big one of condeming all women to suffer the pains of child birth becaues Eve ate the forbidden fruit, etc...). If God is all powerful and just (and all loving as well) he could and would devise an appropriate punishment that does not punish the innocent. Moreover, the punishment would be in measure to the sin --- was condeming all of womanhood to the pains of childbirth a fit punishment for Eve eating the forbidden fruit?

Well, this was a quick summary of some of a couple of basic flaws in the Bible and it is good that this forum is helping get some of this out to the public. With time perhaps people will become more rational and able to think for themselves and thus come to understand that the mystery of our life and existenace on this planet is not going to be found in the various religious holy books.

Thanks.

I know how it feels Paganplace, even though there is plenty of insulation on me! :)

Here in Montana, the temperature sometimes fluctuates by 30 degrees up or down. That can throuw your system off. Thank the Godess we have hardly any humidity. That really helps. Otherwise, I'd have to move.

Hey, here's something interesting on the recurring extremism topic: http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2007-06-13T224549Z_01_N13366859_RTRUKOC_0_US-SECURITY-USA-EXTREMISM.xml&pageNumber=0&imageid=&cap=&sz=13&WTModLoc=NewsArt-C1-ArticlePage2

Terrible tornado? Oh, dear. I hadn't heard of one, but I wouldn't be surprised if what brought these hot days brought tornadoes elsewhere. It seems like a bad tornado season already.

But, nah, it's just like my body has a sticky thermostat or something: I've got a fast metabolism, so I tend to run a little hot (not much insulation on me) until a really hot day comes and my thyroid gets unconfused or something. I'm feeling better actually. :)

Paganplace,

All right, my friend! I was already seeing you in the terrible tornado or such. I must control my vivid imgination!

Thank you Jozevz! Paradox is the most interesting thing to observe! The most important of a house is the empty space inside - this is what makes it usable! The absence of something is the only thing that proves it exists! We have to know what "is not" to know what is! Let there be PHOTONS! Ya Ya!

I understand the argument of light and dark when they are used metaphorically to describe good and evil, but dark sure as heck gets a bad rap. Good and bad are far too broad to ever agree. I think the terms are obselete. In the greatest evil one can find the greatest good, the outcome of the brightest light and the deepest dark are the same - blindness.

Err, I meant, nothing to worry about, Gaby. :) Didn't mean to make you worry: this happens just about every summer. :)

I personally don't believe in light and dark, good and evil arguments. Light and dark compliment each other - they are two opposites that are necessary. However, good and evil are concepts that are man-made, and they do not occur in nature. Those concepts are relative, just as perceptual concepts are, but man is the person who decides the existence of good and evil not through observation, but a mixture of personal experience and social standards. Light and dark are not measured by social standards, period.

Att: "Butterfly", Please do not act like a "Moth!"

Good stuff, Lepi.

Oh, and nothing particularly to worry about, Lepi, it's just a hot day and I'm not used to it yet this year. :) I've taken some steps to keep cool. :)

Jacob,

"P.S. OURS "GENDER" Never Changes"

Oh, Jacob, does that mean all never have balls? :o)

Lep,

You are toooo cooool!!!!

Sorry about the multiple posts - seems to be happening a lot lately.

Paganplace:

"Not sure what tomfoolery is afoot just now, actually, Gaby. :)

I'm a little too un-acclimated to the kind of hot weather we're getting here to much worry about it.

Thankfully, relief is on the way, though. :)"

What is going on? You have me worried!

Fish:"Well the wiccans - witches and warlocks are here in force.
Do us all a favor - you keep telling everyone you have these powers to do great and wonderful things. WELL GET OFF YOUR BUTTS AND DO IT!
But if there is one thing you can depend on its you having an excuse why you can't. How about using this one for an excuse "YOU DON'T HAVE ANY POWERS TO DO ANYTHING AT ALL" there is no such things as witches - warlocks - or the mother or sister or lady - whichever fake you are using today."

That's not how magic works, my misinformed friend. As a pagan, I seek to align mself and harmonize with the natural spiritual forces, not bend them to my will. And attemptng to bend them to my will, even if I did so successfully, would have other consequences that might not be so pleasant. Remember the scene in "Bruce Almighty" when Bruce decides to impress his girlfriend by bringing the moon closer to the earth? It caused massive tidal waves on the other side of the planet. When he decided to grant everyone's prayer who asked to win the lottery, everyone ended up with 17 cents - not the result he intended. Yes, I know the movie is fiction, but the point is still valid.
I could turn the tables and ask you to pray to Jesus for my amputated toes to grow back. After all, the Bible says he put a Roman soldier's ear back on after Peter cut it off, and he raised three-days dead Lazarus. Surely he could manage a few toes? If you pray for it and it doesn't happen, does that mean that your god doesn't exist?

Fish:"Well the wiccans - witches and warlocks are here in force.
Do us all a favor - you keep telling everyone you have these powers to do great and wonderful things. WELL GET OFF YOUR BUTTS AND DO IT!
But if there is one thing you can depend on its you having an excuse why you can't. How about using this one for an excuse "YOU DON'T HAVE ANY POWERS TO DO ANYTHING AT ALL" there is no such things as witches - warlocks - or the mother or sister or lady - whichever fake you are using today."

That's not how magic works, my misinformed friend. As a pagan, I seek to align mself and harmonize with the natural spiritual forces, not bend them to my will. And attemptng to bend them to my will, even if I did so successfully, would have other consequences that might not be so pleasant. Remember the scene in "Bruce Almighty" when Bruce decides to impress his girlfriend by bringing the moon closer to the earth? It caused massive tidal waves on the other side of the planet. When he decided to grant everyone's prayer who asked to win the lottery, everyone ended up with 17 cents - not the result he intended. Yes, I know the movie is fiction, but the point is still valid.
I could turn the tables and ask you to pray to Jesus for my amputated toes to grow back. After all, the Bible says he put a Roman soldier's ear back on after Peter cut it off, and he raised three-days dead Lazarus. Surely he could manage a few toes? If you pray for it and it doesn't happen, does that mean that your god doesn't exist?

Fish:"Well the wiccans - witches and warlocks are here in force.
Do us all a favor - you keep telling everyone you have these powers to do great and wonderful things. WELL GET OFF YOUR BUTTS AND DO IT!
But if there is one thing you can depend on its you having an excuse why you can't. How about using this one for an excuse "YOU DON'T HAVE ANY POWERS TO DO ANYTHING AT ALL" there is no such things as witches - warlocks - or the mother or sister or lady - whichever fake you are using today."

That's not how magic works, my misinformed friend. As a pagan, I seek to align mself and harmonize with the natural spiritual forces, not bend them to my will. And attemptng to bend them to my will, even if I did so successfully, would have other consequences that might not be so pleasant. Remember the scene in "Bruce Almighty" when Bruce decides to impress his girlfriend by bringing the moon closer to the earth? It caused massive tidal waves on the other side of the planet. When he decided to grant everyone's prayer who asked to win the lottery, everyone ended up with 17 cents - not the result he intended. Yes, I know the movie is fiction, but the point is still valid.
I could turn the tables and ask you to pray to Jesus for my amputated toes to grow back. After all, the Bible says he put a Roman soldier's ear back on after Peter cut it off, and he raised three-days dead Lazarus. Surely he could manage a few toes? If you pray for it and it doesn't happen, does that mean that your god doesn't exist?

Thanks, my friend!

I had hoped to get it right! I know what I know in my heart, but sometimes I can't express it very well.

May a universe of PHTONS shine on you!

Not sure what tomfoolery is afoot just now, actually, Gaby. :)

I'm a little too un-acclimated to the kind of hot weather we're getting here to much worry about it.

Thankfully, relief is on the way, though. :)

Sister "Warm-Heart", et al;

"Light & Darkness are two inseperable Parts of the OURS Miracle via Transfinity!" And;

This FACT (OURS Reality via NO choice in the Miracle World Hopping Scheme) is tantamount to both , distinct, but seperate Entity's, as Phenomono for US to Uphold & Make Honorable, like "Electric Charge" (entity) is inseparable (Cannot live withthem & cannot Live without annology) of "Static Electricity."

Two Seperate Entiy's Yet Two Seperate Phenomona! Ya Ya.

This is a Necessity, besodes the "Tetra Needs" via the Clauses of Universe {Holy No Mon Constitution & More}. Ya Ya.

There is zero wrong with DARK (Black or Invisible) and that with LIGHT (White or Visible).

Warm Heart, You are Slowly Unbollixing Your Prejudices.

And You, Et al potentiate ASPERANT's, Are Now a Great "STUDENT OF SOURCE-ONE FOREVER." Ya Ya.

Praise the LORD!

Jacob,

please read the following and tell me if that makes sense.

Fist, I call it “IT” because IT is neither male nor female nor does IT have a name. Even the Bible and Torah concur with that. Please see the following link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_am_that_I_am

IT is both, light (love) and darkness (evil), the all-knowing, conscious presence. IT has reason within itself, therefore we have reason within ourselves. All of us are both, good and evil, and because we have reason we are able to choose the light or the darkness. To deny that fact is lying to yourself.

There is no sin in and of itself in the sense that we all were born with the ability to do both, good and/or evil (man-made morality codes created sin).

Animal species have instinct on which they act, as do we to some decree, but not reason. Therefore, they are incapable of evil as such.

So, IT and us know goodness (love) and (evil) darkness and we must choose. IT chose light, because there is not life in darkness, therefore it stands to reason that we must choose light if we want to live. So light goes to light and darkness goes to darkness, both of which are part of IT.

Does that make any sense to you at all?

"World View" I am "ONE-LESS" Pre-Apocalypotari-Off. once I was a catterpilar & now I am a "Eclati-On-Butterfly". Please, do not be a smart As. No? Ya?

lIKE wISE;

Khudha Haafiz, me poshtoon Mon Mr. "One-More" a/k/a "EK das" ET AL! Ya yA.

Well, I was referring to *the new name being shiney,* but we could call *Jacob* 'Shiney Photon Guy.' :)

What's happening? Is the earth still revolving in the right direction?
Jacob, you are at a loss for words! ECLATi still ON, mon! ya ya ya :)
sholom, peace all, khuda haafiz, shukriya, namaste, thank you, bless all...

Wouild you preffer to be called "Shiney" instead of "World-View"?

Hee, new name. Shiney. :)

Frank, the problem is, it's not heated discussion and debate if ...you don't actually respond to what people say, ...or in fact seem to register or retain what you're being told. This is no service: it just creates acrimony.

hey i don't really hate people either...i just do it to start heated discussions and debates, just for kicks and giggles if you will
just trying to be in character...the evil, nasty troll!
peace all...ya ya ya mons
eclati-on always

*sigh*

Sooner or later, the 'witch hunts,' it seems. I really do worry about you guys.

Al Barnas:

"Stop trying to be Goddesses...the world may return to peace. Perhaps your religion is not God's. I notice things a bit more unsettled as of late. Did you have anything to help promote this state of affairs? Perhaps you overstretched your powers and took advantage of God's personal property. I suggest you back off. Sacred items belong to God alone."

Perhaps instead of trying to blame small minorities for the effects of things the Religious Right insists are "Of God" yet *never work except to create more stress, fear, and division, (and profit for the greedy.)*

Maybe you should look to your own house (or at least maybe read some of our own words, here,) before pointing fingers of wild accusation.

Accusations based on your own religion's disinformation, it'd seem.

And, Frank, no one said they hate you, but if you're wondering why nobody likes you, it's because you troll here, say nasty and inflammatory things, and never listen to a word anyone says when they share their point of view.

I never said I hate you. I said I don't love you!

Big difference there!

Oooops. P.S. Ther are Times when a "Doctor needs a Doctor" too!

Poet and mystic Fyodor Doestoyevsky has expressed what love is and how it should be.
I quote:
"Love all God’s creation, both the whole and every grain of sand. Love every leaf, every ray of light. Love the animals, love the plants,and love each separate thing. If thou love each thing thou wilt perceive the mystery of God in all; and when once thou perceive this, thou wilt thence forward grow every day to a fuller understanding of it; until thou come at last to love the whole world with a love that will then be all-embracing and universal."

oh gaby
why do you hate me?

Thou art a Genuine Holy Cosmic "Warm Heart"(s) Indeed and more!

Angie,

I am ECLATi-ON. That means that I am one with IT, acutally we all are one with IT. Because I am one with IT, I love everyone, not like everyone. (Actually, I don't love Frank Collins, the evil, little monster!)

We are part of the holy cosmic heartbeat, whether you like it or not. The difference is that you believe in a bunch of man-made stories, while Jacob and I see IT differently. You are still a caterpillar, we are already butterflies.

You need to worship and pray and such. We don't, because IT is part of us and can feel us every second of ever day of our lives. Simple, eh?

Forever Together With Source-ONE! Ya Ya Ya!
Oooooohhhh, ggoooooossey buuuummpppies!!!

That's exactly what I am trying to point out Luke

Sorry if it seems a little harsh, but saying - I love God and God love is better, and you wouldn't understand because you don't love God is a dodge, not an argument.

That is my point, Gandalf. It is juvenile and doesn't make any sense to say, "I love God, and love is God, so I love everyone". Nonsense. I hate sour cream, and man makes sour cream, and supposedly God made man, so does that mean I hate man? You are trying to make my feelings seem "less than" yours because you believe in God. That is the arrogance of which I speak. You don't know everyone, so how can you love them? All you are doing is "I love that person's quintessential self, which I believe I know wholeheartedly because I believe in God (although you are only seeing a single viewpoint on the matter), but I love people better than you do because I imagine that I love people I have never met". I see your argument, I just don't believe it is very good.

Angie and Luke:
Actually, I would differ from Angie's viewpoint in that, you DO NOT have to believe in God in some form to be able to love every being unconditionally and selflessly. That is a rather narrow-minded and arrogant approach, if you will excuse me for saying that. However, I would imagine that unconditional love for every being is a very difficult "thing" to achieve (for theists as well as atheists). Moreover, you do not have to "first" love God unconditionally in order to be able to love your fellow beings so. It could be the other way round too. And yes, an atheist can love just as unconditionally as a believer can... just my two cents!

Ahhh....Jacob. My earthly being, cosmo wondering, ECLATION (Huh). I am sure you wouldn't understand. But that's ok. I will post as many times as the "post" will allow. I love answering questions, as I have noticed you do as well. So if you can post, I can post and say what I would like to say. But that's just because I LOVE to post. I am having a really bored day right now. So Earthly beings, God is Love, God Loves you, and so do I. A smile will make the day better (HEE HEE HEE HEE :-) just kidding.

A N G I E; Please Go on a Sabatical or something like that! Ya!

Hi Luke

Those who don't have the God kind of Love do not love because God is love. Yes Atheist can have strong feelings and desires and may even "love" someone but I am talking about the God kind of Love. There is nothing greater than the Love of God. So if you don't know the God that I know then you can't experience the God kind of Love that I am talking about. Atheist may have a love for someone but they don't know the God kind of Love that I have. I Love the atheist just as well as God loves them/you. Just because I love you does NOT mean that I have to accept everything about you. I love my co-worker but she is a nagging complaining person. It's not that I am stupid enough not to notice that she is nagging and complaining but when I do NOT LOVE her just because of that. I might not like everyone personally or their nasty little attitudes, I am not dumb to not notice it but I am not going to allow that persons negative behavior and attitude change my GOd kind of Love and send me to an early grave by stressing me all out over dumb stuff. You see what I am saying.

What I am trying to say is that YES, it does take a big heart to love everyone, but why do you believe that unless you love God it is fake and selfish? What you are implying is that atheists can't really love everyone because they expect something in return, and I say that is not true. I don't believe that you can love everyone. Love is personal - and measured in degrees, not absolutes.

Well said Jacob..ya ya mons!!

Angie,
I agree with your post. It is actually very similar to my post on the same thread posted June 14, 2007 3:19 PM
And Luke, it is not a cop out. You have to have a strong and "big" heart to be able to love everyone unconditionally...not expecting anything in return. It is not the weak-minded who could accomplish this.
GTW

Hi Luke,
It's not a cop out. It's actually pretty easy. It has nothing to do with feelings. When man puts their emotions into everything, the world get screwed up. Just look at everything now. Because of emotions and how everyone "feels", you have gang violence, you have the death penalty, you have abortions, you have people going postal on people, you have things like the VA teach shootings and you have the violence in the inner city's (and burbs). All because of your feelings. Man can't control their feelings that's why through the Love of God he can assist us through the Holy Spirit and his son Jesus (I guess I would only be talking to those who believe in Jesus so if you don't this doesn't apply to you so....there is still a chance for you to believe in HIM however).

I am not saying that the world would be perfect however it could be better if everyone wasn't so emotional and using their "feelings" to make decisions everyday. i.e. I feel sad today so I will make everyone else miserable around me. Uh nope wrong answer. No matter what is going on in my life personally (death in the family, finances, children, husband problems ,etc) because I am filled with the Holy Spirit and I "WALK IN the LOVE OF GOD" I don't do that. I continue to hold my head up high and press on.

I am not making assumptions. However, I am not one of those Flower in my hair, Peace upon all the earth people either. I am not a realist, I am a christian and there is a difference. Simply because the world's view on things is different than God's perspective. I go by what HE says. Not by My Feelings. It is only right for me to Love everyone. Because that is the first commandment. The commandments are easy. Just think about it. How hard is it to obey them if you did walk in Love. PS The Government doesn't have to obey the ten commandments. The Government can't be under the law when they are the law. So that doesn't count.

Angie, I don't really get it. You are making assumptions about how other people should feel, but don't you only really know how YOU feel? I don't think that loving God and yourself forces you to act this way. I think that is pure cop-out.

The greatest commandment of them all is to LOVE>
1.)If you love God first, you will do everything that pleases Him.

2.) If you love your neighbor you won't have any need to sleep with them when they are married to someone else, you won't have a need to gossip or talk about them, you won't have a need to talk about how high their grass is you will just cut it yourself (neighbor isn't necessarily referring to the person living next door to you, it's more like people you are in contact with or near on a regular basis) If you love your neighbor you won't stick your middle finger up at them when they are trying to get over in traffic but because they didn't get over when you wanted them to, you wouldn't have to cut in the parking space when you know that person was there first with a signal light on but because you had an easier way of getting in there you got in. If you love your neighbor if you are in the grocery line and the girl in front of you keeps counting how much money she has every time the clerk hits subtotal when she is only trying to feed her kids you wouldn't complain, you would tell the clerk to let her have all of it and just pay for her groceries yourself.

3.) If You Love yourself, you wouldn't want to fornicate or commit adultery because your body is a temple. Why would want to have sex with these people before you marry. You don't understand the spiritual connection that happens when the hymen is broken and when intercourse takes place. And even kissing, fondling, and four play is fornicating. If not then why is it when you get married the REV says "AND NOW YOU MAY KISS THE BRIDE" meaning you weren't supposed to be kissing and petting in the first place.

4.) If you Love, you wouldn't have any reason to steal from anyone or take what's not yours.

The ten commandments are the basis of the law but it is not the law.

What I find interesting about Christian extremists is that the Ten Commandments are always directed outward upon others to criticize and judge. For political or monetary gain, these same folks often forget the Commandments apply to themselves.

What I find interesting about Christian extremists is that the Ten Commandments are always directed outward upon others to criticize and judge. For political or monetary gain, these same folks often forget the Commandments apply to themselves.

The 10 Commandments are just another version of old Babylonian rules for the preservation of property in land, goods, animals, and women, in that order. Nothing religious about it. The Jews added a couple of items about God, the Sabbath and all that. The Commandments are more social than religious. When Woodrow Wilson propsed his 14 points the French premier, Georges Clemenceau, was exasperated: the Good Lord only had ten commandments but Wilson has 14. It was appropriate. Wilson was a Presbyterian bigot who thought he was God's emissary; he saw no need to consult other people about what to do. That is why the whole peace settlement fell apart and led to Hitler and WWII. The 10 Commandments have not had much better a result.

The Bhagavad Gita preaches "selfless service", which I believe is the same thing to which you are referring. It may be foolish for YOU to believe that you can help others and expect nothing in return, but people of all faiths (and those of no faith, such as myself) do it all the time. I don't believe in karma or the grace of God, and I don't expect or believe I deserve anything in return. True, it doesn't make sense to me as a non-believer, and it didn't when I was a believer, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I just think you are wrong through personal experience. Without God, I have been able to focus more on benefitting humanity and myself without limbo between damnation and deliverance.

Luke:

I came here simply to share my point of view. You are welcome to disagree.

I believe that there is an element of free will in the actions that we undertake, whether "good" or "bad." Hence us being "mired" in sin, if you will, might have been from the choices that we make/made.

Of course it feels good to serve others, to do good things, to serve humanity, but it is very foolish to believe that we do this without expecting something back in return. That mentality leads to pride in ourselves. However say we didn't have those chemicals in our brains that gave us that wonderful afterglow after a service well-rendered, then what? Would we continue to do good things? I argue, that we wouldn't. And I argue this after seeing the debilitating effects of those whose chemicals in their brains are a little bit off (the clinically depressed). Often people who are depressed are immobilised, they can't get themselves off the couch to do anything, because that good feeling has been erased/thwarted - there's just no motivation to do anything.

You mention the danger of hell fire as being the motivation for Christians living the way they do. I'm sure that people are afraid of judgment, you are correct. But hell, to me at least, represents eternal separation from God. And for someone who loves God, who wouldn't want to live life in service to him, to love him with all our heart and soul, if the reward is life with him, eternally?

It sounds foolish to someone who doesn't understand, I'm sure.

I don't intend to hold myself up loftily because of anything I have done. I know that I am the worst of all people myself, my every inclination I have on my own is to do bad things. I never said that as a Christian all things we do are suddenly good. Obviously that is a foolish statement, and professing Christians all still strugle with sin/ evil and will continue to do so, for as long as we live on this earth. With God's grace in my life, and by his mercy, however we are capable of doing good things for him and by him. And with the goal of serving God, I will live my life out in service to him. And this includes things I consider religious, as per the Bible, serving the poor and helping single mothers/ orphans who need help.

Again, I don't intend to impose my opinion on to you, I merely intend to defend it, and this is really what I believe.

May God be glorified, now and always.

Al, what are you saying? Perhaps what you are saying makes no sense? Ever think of that?

Stop trying to be Goddesses...the world may return to peace. Perhaps your religion is not God's. I notice things a bit more unsettled as of late. Did you have anything to help promote this state of affairs? Perhaps you overstretched your powers and took advantage of God's personal property. I suggest you back off. Sacred items belong to God alone.

But, Al, on the 'Can you hear yourselves' question, I guess I'll just put you down under, 'No.'

Well, at least the right to 'free association' would appear to be in no danger, tonight. :)

But, hey, they call many of the female ministers in *my* religion Lady, but, well, that may have something to do with not fearing Gods and trying to tell someone else who theirs is. :)

Scientists created nukes...not God!

Hilary Clinton promoted HMO's that failed...not God!

Immigrant: Descended italian, polish, very liberal, very conservative (yes the two are compatible) We do love cowboys! They search out and hog tie the marauders...then turn them over to the law. They are generally very polite and respectful to ladies, and will watch for their welfare.
Not too many ladies left! That's why most religions have male ministers!

I mean, look at *this,* Ok?

"Is this the end of the world?"

"Believe in God and you'll be beamed out."

And people say there's not *enough* of this controlling the *nuclear weapons and environmental policy.*

Can you *hear* yourselves?

God is TRUTH.

God is not an alchemist.

God does not lie.

God is patient...100 years are as 1-day.

Fear the Lord Your God!

Just don't 'spend the meek's inheritance,' cowboy. :)

In love, we will reach out to as many as possible when destruction occurs. God will reveal God.

*doubletake.*

Whoa... "or an observer of times,"

The Times Observer shall not be suffered to live!

And anyone who doesn't think so is a traitor! :)

Dear David,
I was asked by a student once if this is the end-of-time. My instinct provided an immediate response, which was later confirmed in scripture: Love God, keep the commandments, and you will live.
I believe this to be the foundation of the Covenant as emphasized in Deuteronomy 30: 16.
I consider this mandate to be written in sequence; love God, first. This allows a person to accept certain conditions which are beyond one's control. Commandments are guidelines to help keep a person focused on God's perspective, primarily, and the human element, secondarily. I accept most law as guidelines. Should a person desire to stray from a law this should be a chosen path based on faith and the desire to do the will of God. A righteous person allows God to be the ultimate judge. Today, many people do not follow the commandments because of desire or ill-directed emotion, and not intellectual God-centered choosing.

Yeah, HL, ...his whole little anti-Pagan rant came about cause he kind of couldn't grasp the concept that all those 'exclusively Islamic' things he was trying to scare us about, we're quite used to in the good old 'Christian' U.S. of A.

Therefore 'Islamic' for pointing out that what he's screaming about so indignantly happens to be a little closer to home for us.

If I hated everyone who apparently thought their God wanted me dead, I wouldn't have a whole lot of time to *live,* never mind try and help solve any of the world's problems.

Being the repeatedly-missed point.

It would seem like that more basic concepts could be dealth with in this forum than what people seem to want to do.

The complexity of what has been done over about 3000 years or so is so great and so fantastic and is so out of accord with what people want to believe that the probability of correcting it anytime soon would seem rather remote. A place to start would seem to be to ask the question: "was it all made up? and if so, why? And has the group making it up and controlling "it" been in control the whole time? And is it a scam on the Jewish people as well as all other people? Or did the God of the universe provide insight to a small group that soon turned the insight into a system to control people?

Frank,

I found these words of wisdom by a bible believing Chritian who disagrees with you:

"It's been 20 years since we legally executed a witch on this campus, but our lawyers are working very hard with the Federal Government to ensure that we can continue to practice our religion the way the Bible tells us to. Exodus 22:18 says, "Suffer not a witch to live." Deuteronomy 18:10 says, "There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch." God is very clear here, folks, he doesn't want witches (or as they call themselves today, 'Wiccans') to live. We are supposed to be killing witches! If we don't, we are disobeying God. Jesus would weep tears of joy if He leaned down off His cloud and sniffed up the burning flesh of a witch this Halloween. Wouldn't that ruin Satan's little birthday party! Praise God! It's just a shame that the United States Government has placed restrictions on the Biblically-mandated practice of witch burning." Sermon by Pastor Deacon Fred

PaganPlace, watch it, Frank might be one of those bible thumping deamons.

" Pluralism:

How are all the Ten Commandments applicable to other religions/faiths? I am sure most are, but what about commandments like "keeping the sabbath"?"

Well, that's one problem with the Old Testament, there, these commandments are explicitly directed to the Hebrew tribe, and somewhere in those books, they actually *forbid* non-Hebrews from ...umm, doing what Christian literalists are doing.

Melissa: You say these two things.:

"As a believer (a Christian), I will try to answer the question of why a moral world cannot be sustained without God at the center.

"My arguments will obviously be centered around my Christian/ Biblical worldview. So unless you accept my core beliefs, it may be hard for you to understand my argument."

Is this not a slight problem in terms of how to construct a world?

The usual answer is, 'Everyone else is immoral, and has to go.'

Oh, and, hi, Frank.

You'd better go on thinking that. Wouldn't want you to freak out or nothing. :)

How are all the Ten Commandments applicable to other religions/faiths? I am sure most are, but what about commandments like "keeping the sabbath"?

Wiccan: "Sometimes I feel closer to the Lady when I'm in my garden than when I'm in the circle."

Bingo, my friend. How can I look around me at the canteloupes, squash, beans, tomatoes, peppers, tomatoes, and potato vines, herbs and fruit trees from which I feed my family, and not realize that the earth which gives them life gives me life, that they and I are inseparable one from the other and from the earth? With Louisiana clay under my fingernails, sweat tricking down my back, and the smell of tomato vines in my nostrils, my soul sends forth a resounding Om, and I feel One with the Universe.

David, you asked, "If you're not a believer, please tell me how morality can be sustained without a higher authority to ratify and enforce it.".

Let me start by questioning the assumption that ratification by a higher authority defines morality. Are our actions moral merely because the biggest cahuna says they are moral? If so, that reduces morality to simple bullying. I believe your blog discussed the atrocious behavior of the Bible's God in earlier chapters of Exodus, particularly his vicious, premeditated murder of the first-born children of Egypt. Were those murders moral, simply because the 'higher authority ratified and enforced them'? Personally, I don't agree that actions are moral just because whichever strongman happens to be in charge signs off on them.

So what sustains morality? Many atheists and other nonbelievers have developed systems of thought to justify and support moral codes, but in my opinion there is no absolute justification of any moral statement. The basis of human morality is our evolution as social and tribal animals. Almost all humans have a similar moral sense; that is, when faced with abstract moral questions and dilemmas, most of us will make somewhat similar decisions. However, we apply different rules to insiders (members of the tribe) and outsiders. Just who is considered a member of the group varies tremendously across time and culture. In modern democracies, almost everyone is accorded similar rights. In areas with powerful ethnic or religious divisions, murder of an outsider is often perfectly acceptable.

In summary, morality is sustained by our evolved moral sense and the societies, laws, and cultural institutions which have arisen to enforce this sense. There's nothing absolute about this. Sociopaths have little moral sense; in some cases, our laws and institutions are the only thing which can control them. There's no higher court in the sky to appeal to, and no justice beyond the grave. We strive for equality, fairness, and human freedom not because it's a universal imperative, but because we believe they are worth fighting for. And there's no guarantee these ideals will overcome; we can only struggle and hope.

Lep: "Having my hands in dirt is an act of worship for me."

Compadre! Sister! (Kisses Lep on both cheeks!)

Sometimes I feel closer to the Lady when I'm in my garden than when I'm in the circle. :-)

Athena:

LOL.
IMO, and this may be just MO, coveting involves more than just wanting a plasma tv because the neighbors have one. It involves wanting it to the point of being willing to deprive them of it (whether by theft, vandalism, or some other means) if you can't have one.
It's not wrong for me to see your Lexus and wish I had one. It's not wrong for me to want one badly enough to take a second or even third job in order to buy one. It's wrong for me to decide that if I can't afford on, then you shouldn't have one either and take a basball bat to yours.

As for the Sabbath, who sys it has to be the Christian Sabbath? Since I work 4 ten-hour days, and am off most Fridays, Friday is often my Sabbath - my day set aside to recharge my spiritual batteries. I generally spend sesveral hours every Friday working in my yard, catching up the weeding, andd tending that gets merely a lick and a promise the rest of the week. Having my hands in dirt is an act of worship for me. I think we'd all be better off if we set aside time on a regular basis to re-center ourselves, regardless of what day of the week we chose or what rituals or activities we engaged in toward that end.

A good argument, Melissa, would be that if God didn't condone sin, he wouldn't have mired us in it from the start. I hardly think that eating fruit would be the reason why God condemned us to brutalize each other until he came back and made us stop. I do plenty of things without expecting anything in return. It does feel good to help though. Is it wrong to feel good? Then why did God put those chemicals in my brain? I guess when you are a Christian, everything you do is suddenly good? I don't think so - and I think that is a dangerous way to think. I don't believe that Christians do nice things because they love God. I think they do them so they don't go to Hell.

No coveting? But... but... isn't coveting your neighbor's property the entire basis of capitalism? "Keeping up with the Joneses," so to speak. Does this mean that anyone who drools over their neighbor's big-screen TV, Cadillac Escalade, or McMansion is committing an act as heinious as murder, adultery or theft?

And "keeping holy the Sabbath" would require that all stores, including Wal-Mart, be closed on Sunday, so that the employees could be in Church. Oh, and no NASCAR or football on Sundays, either! The drivers, players, stadium workers, etc. are all working, not at home praying! Should they be executed for breaking one of the Commandments, or just flogged?

All sarcasm aside, think about it...

I think the real problems come when what Lepi just quoted turns into the idea that 'All commandments *are* "Love."

People do horrible and harmful things in the name of religion, simply because, in a fashion that's infected Neocon politics, they *redefined* bad things *as* 'Love' because they *insist* it must be 'as commanded.'

The question as to how we can sustain a moral world with or without God is a good question and the answer that you will get obviously will depend on what background of the person who answers.

As a believer (a Christian), I will try to answer the question of why a moral world cannot be sustained without God at the center.

My arguments will obviously be centered around my Christian/ Biblical worldview. So unless you accept my core beliefs, it may be hard for you to understand my argument.

My religion (Christianity and I would argue Judaism as well) believes that humanity due to some major sin (evil act) at the start of civilization (the allegorical eating of the forbidden fruit, if you will) is sinful. We've inherited this "sin". We suffer from being separated from God and every inclination that we have after we are born is to do bad things. Even when we do so-called morally "good" things, we are filled with feelings/ desires that are bad. We have selfish pride in our actions - pride in ourselves, we think we are entitled to compensation for the good things that we do, we become full of ourselves and often boastful. I really honestly believe that it is hard (impossible?) to do things that are actually truly good, unconditionally, without expecting something in return. Try it for yourself. I definately cannot do it.

And that in itself, according to my religion at least, in sinful. That pride, that sense of entitlement, and the actions that spring forth from that are bad. Sin in my religion means anything that separates us from God - and this includes our desires that are immoral, etc.

So if you go off the premise that all of our actions are somehow tinged with evil/badness (by default, because we are born that way) then it is impossible to truly do moral things unconditionally without God at the center.

So this is why the first four commandments center around loving God first, not worshipping anyone else first, not taking God's name in vain, and setting aside time to worship God first. Christianity holds to the principle that unless you do these four things - in essence, unless you worship God with all your heart and surrender to the LORD first, your every action will have selfish intent. And as long as we are obsessed with ourselves we fall prey to the harms that this holds - individual sins (like anger and pride and vanity and lust and lying) which in turn lead to a sinful/ evil society. If every individual member of society is evil at the core, it is difficult to sustain a non-evil, moral society. Christianity says it is impossible. That's why we advocate loving and worshipping God first. Because if you truly do that, we believe, God will enable you to carry out the other six commandments.

I'm trying to make a clear argument about what I believe. I'm not in any way saying that all Christians live out these things in their daily lives (because we too are sinful), but that is the goal of our lives. To be selfless not of our own capacity - but because God would have us be full of God and not of ourselves.

Still, religion is often distorted these days. But if you go back to what the Bible says about true religion it is this: "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."

I think that that is an impossible task without God's grace.

Keep blogging the Bible. It's probably the most interesting book that I own.

Gandalf:
"One word would encompass all commandments: LOVE"

Yes it would. RESPECT would also do the same thing, since we can't make ourselves love all, but we can make ourselves treat all with common decency.

One word would encompass all commandments: LOVE

Pure unadulterated selfless love for all your fellow beings, each one and every one... if you can do that, there are all your commandments fulfilled. Then, you:

1. Will love GOD
2. Will love your parents (loving all fellow beings will include your parents, of course)
3. Will not murder (can you kill anyone if you have pure "unexpecting" love)
4. Will not commit adultery (love again, if you love your spouse enough, you will not go behind his/her back and commit this sin)
5. Will not steal (loving someone makes it difficult, well neigh impossible to steal from them)
6. Will not bear false witness against your neighbour (would you be a false witness against someone you love)
7. Will not covet your neighbour's house (you would want the best to someone you love, not want to take it from them for yourself...unselfish love)

PeaceTroll:

Works for me.

Romans 13:8
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

9For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

"From Caterpillar To Butterfly, a hunting WE will Go"

Att: Butterfly , et al; I like that part, where you commented on the Evils of the series of Harry Potter Book and you said, "..I'd Eat Favava Beans & drink Chiante, & swallow the entire series if there is any Evil [Witchcraft?] in them Story's.." [SIMILAR said].

I could not stop laughing! That was Classic Babby! Not Gabby. Ya Ya.

Jacob,
My totem thanks you for the recognition. I chose my spiritual name as a combination of Lepidoptera (scientific order of butterflies and moths) and phoenix (magical bird that bursts into flame and is reborn from its own ashes) because the transformational and regenerational aspects of these creatures speak to my life circumstances.

As you have written them, the 10 Fiats can most definitely apply to any system of religious belief, as well as to those who practice no religion.

Jacob,

I rather like your take on the 10 Guidelines.

Namaste, my friend.

Hi. Thanks for this. The last six are good advice for living with people. The first four are essential for living with God.
Jesus summed up all of it with this: love the Lord... and love your neighbour. The first four of the Ten break down Jesus' first commandment (from Deuteronomy 6:4-6) and the last six of the Ten break down Jesus' second commandment (from Leviticus 19:18).
You could make a case that 'all we need for daily life' is the latter group of commands. Where that falls down is when you extend daily life into eternity. It comes down to Jesus - there is no other name under heaven given to us by which we must be saved. In the context of daily life over, say, the next 7,000 years, the former group of commandments emerges as essential.
Follow Jesus. Much grace to you.

Sorry, I meant to say: You make this forum fun to be in!

Dear Mr. Plotz,

Most of the time I can't wait for your humorous satire of the ancient holy texts to be posted.

You this this forum fun to be in!!!

I've always felt that half the commandments could be condensed into, "If it ain't yours, don't feck with it."

This applies to someone else's:
belongings (Thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not covet)
reputaition (thou shalt not perjure)
life (thou shalt not murder)
spouse (thou shalt not commit adultery)

Dear David,
I've been reading a little bit of your commentary on the Exodus story. I wish I was able to answer all of your points, but I think perhaps the best thing to do is point you towards a work done by someone who has more expertise in this area. There is a phenomenal book by Robert Alter entitled "The Five Books of Moses". Alter is a professor of Hebrew and comparative literature at Berkley and this is an amazing commentary that argues for the coherence of the Torah as a whole. His is one of the best commentaries that you will find on the subject of the Torah and it is very accesible to readers. In it he answers your questions about the 10 commandments, the interactions between Moses, God, and the Israelites, and how the whole of the Torah ties together. As I said, for me to try and answer all of your questions would be seriously inadequate, so the best thing to do is point you to an expert on the subject. I hope you find it helpful in your search for answers.

Sincerely,

Nicholas Price