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Just let go and Let God… don’t worry yourselves about any religion but your own, and God will do the rest, it “IS” His creation is it not?

God, through His Son Jesus Christ, has shown me the world in the light of today just as He is showing you the same light while I type this response to all this religious madness I see going on in this world today….The blueprints of wars are drawn up in the temples of men before they are ever prosecuted in the field.

"Too many are willing to "die" for HATE and too few are willing to "Live" for Love."

"What time Fate's tyranny shall most oppress thee Perpend!
One day shall joy thee, one distress thee!"
Just make sure of thy evil ways, to amend!

Do not love to hate evil more than you love to love the good. Conquer through forgiveness, acquire through Love!

God blessed the man who in seeking the Truth, finds it, and rests on it, and is unafraid of those who would disturb him in it.

Where true inward knowledge of God exists through the revelation of His Spirit, everything essential is there, and there is no absolute necessity for anything else. But, where the best, highest, and most profound knowledge exists without the revelation of His Spirit, there is nothing, so far as the great object of salvation is concerned; Therefore:

1. The only knowledge of the Father is by the Son.

2. The only knowledge of the Son is by the Spirit.

3. God has always revealed Himself to His children by the Spirit.

4. These revelations are the main purpose of faith.

5. That purpose continues to be the object of faith to this day.

6. The true church of God, through our Lord Jesus Christ lays within the hearts and minds of all the men, women and children throughout the whole world where the might and powers of men and Satan cannot get at it. It is not a building of cold stones and mortar nor an institution of calloused administrators and professors, it is alive and well, catholic yet hidden and even the gates of hell cannot prevail against it.

From the Holy Bible we are taught spiritual messages as our Lord will have us taught as well as other books which also have hidden meanings which only when one is praying to Jesus for his or her personal needs will anyone be able to make any sense out of them, and from such books as the Philokalia for example, we are instructed in the philosophical way to perfection, in the Evergetinos, we are guided to the pragmatic life of humility and self-control (inward spiritual discipline), the indispensable requisites for the more advanced endeavor of the former. In other words “we must imitate Him in every way and become perfect in every way.“ as our Lord Jesus suggested to us in this parable that these people were not doing;

Mat 23:25 “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.”

This must be done, because before the world can change, the hearts and minds of mankind must change. They knew what to do, they were just never seen doing it. Kind of like the old adage; "The Honest Lawyer who is never seen in practice."

When if only they would just clean their heads out, ( the "cup" Jesus mentioned.) then they would start living and acting like what they have read in the scriptures that they were supposed to do. Thus even today these same like minded people are still adding the name " hypocrite " to their no doubt growing list of other unkind names as well, just as Jesus alluded to them all the way back then. Know Jesus know Peace, no Jesus, no peace.

So my question is, why are men still running around trying to "teach ye one another the Lord" and in both the Old Testament and New Testament it states His Words quite boldly? Is it the consensus of the majority that Jesus say's things just to hear the sound of His own Voice?

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Hbr 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know Me, from the least to the greatest.
Thank You Jesus!

A Believer:

His yoke is easy and His burden Light,
However, I’m still not worthy
of being called
“Christian,”
but I’m trying,
Thanks To Jesus
For His Might!

Rom 1:5 By whom (Jesus) we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for His name:

Tts 3:7 That being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come He might shew the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye (which is us, everyone who follows Him.) have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, and settle you.

Psa 3:3 But Thou, O LORD, art a Shield for me; my Glory, and the Lifter up of mine head.

Psa 6:3 My soul is also sore vexed: but Thou, O LORD, how long?

Psa 22:19 But be not Thou far from me, O LORD: O my Strength, haste Thee to help me.

Psa 40:17 But I am poor and needy; yet the Lord thinketh upon me: Thou art my Help and my Deliverer; make no tarrying, O my God.

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, Thou art our Father; we are the clay, and Thou our Potter; and we all are the work of Thy Hand.

“His will be done.”

Keep the Faith!

Thank You Jesus!

Mary Cunningham - Well, the Italian Renaissance was well underway *before* the Black Death.

First of all, my history of Europe was a terrible mishmash and I should have been far more careful. However, in terms of the plague, I know I'm correct.

Plague first struck Europe in 1347 and then rapidly spread throughout much of Europe killing between 1/4 to 2/3 of the population by the time the first outbreak ended in 1351. It then periodically ravaged Europe until late in the seventeenth century. In fact, the plague had a very large effect on European demography, politics, culture, and religion. Some have suggested the Renaissance and the Reformation were brought on by the social upheaval caused by the plague.

On the other hand, the plague also ravaged Asia and the Middle East and did not have that kind of social effect, though the records are not as extensive and reliable as those from Europe.

In terms of autocracy, my point was that monotheistic religions have tended to support autocracies because of the idea of one god ruling over all as the natural order. In fact, the Catholic Church viewed democracies with great suspicion.

I have no intention for Shariah to be law in America. Conversely, Americans want to Americanize the Muslim world. In fact they want control and access to all energy reserves in the Muslim world AND want to tell Muslims how to live. But how is America as a model for perfect living?

My earlier post expressed my view that Americans suffer from a lack of knowledge of the rest of the world and yet regularly spew forth hateful comments and judgements from positions of ignorance. Heh, Islam didn't force anyone into taking that student loan and mortgage you'll be paying off for 20 years. Islam didn't make the price of living out of reach for 100s of millions. Islam didn't force violent 'if it bleeds it leads' stories every hour, or violent video games, misogynistic entertainment, and so forth.

D, I am very proud of the revelation of Allah and HIS LAW for mankind. You mentioned a terrible experience in Libya? Assuming you are truthful, accurate, and even understand what happened there, Libya is NOT representative of Islam or Shariah. Libya is a socialist republic type govt run by a dictator, Qaddafi, brought to power by a British coup. Since then, he has placed himself above the law, above God, rendering all kinds of laws based on his personal megalomania. Its men like Qaddafi and his govt which have to face justice which God has commanded in His Law. There is no reason for Muslims to cower to Europe's International Criminal Court for justice. America is certainly not known for justice, ecspecially when Libya has oil.

Qaddafi and his ilk, Mubarak, Saudi rulers, king of Jordan (has had many people tortured, funnelled money to EU banks, etc), Bashir of Sudan- all of these and more must stand trial for their crimes against their people. Shariah law within an Islamic state is best equipped to serve justice for these rulers.

Mary Cunningham: to your points: 1)There are and have been secular states where the religion is Islam. Turkey is one (maybe the only true one), Indonesia another, also Morocco, Algeria and Egypt in lesser degrees.

You might have added Pakistan. All of these situations are maintained by institutions, such as the army and business groups, who restrain popular opinion, and to one degree or another represent an anti-democratic force. Turkey is your best example, and the recent million-string demonstrations against Islamic partices was encouraging, but Islamism (helped by our misguided policies) is growing even there.

Point two: agreed, although the "Chosen People" and "Children of God" aspects of monotheism help this Trinity succeed, by encouraging contempt for others with different beliefs. I can find passages in both Testaments and the Koran to substantiate this.I'd say that Dwight Eisenhower was the last US president with a genuinely independent MidEast foreign policy. And don't leave out the military-industrial complex, which is complicit in all of this. Ike warned us about that but we've lost the battle, so far.All those mis-spent dollars are making some very influential companies very wealthy -- the essence of blood money.

It's with shame as an American that I say these things.But as the religious people say, shame can be the first step to repentence and a different way of life.

Denis writes:

>*1)If one theme emerges from this discussion thread, it's the incompatibility of Western and Islamic views on religion and the state....2)the largest interference, of course, is American Middle East policy*

I disagree with point 1. There are and have been secular states where the religion is Islam. Turkey is one (maybe the only true one), Indonesia another, also Morocco, Algeria and Egypt in lesser degrees. So BTW was Iraq.

on 2) I agree...but not because the religions are incompatible
...but because American Middle Eastern policy was outsourced from the secular state *to* two very specific warlike groups: bellicose American evangelicals and the Israel lobby. These combined with rightwing Israeli militarism to form an unholy Trinity that could never bring peace to the Middle East, even had it so desired it-- which it did not: our trio wanted revolution and war.

And it has got exactly what it wanted. There is an arc of chaos which threatens to envelop the entire area.

Religion--mainstream Christianity and moderate Islam--had almost no part to play in this dreadful drama. However, it does make a fine scapegoat.

Att: D E N I S, et al; Hello Cyber Friend(s); You said;

".... I think MONO-theism is the worst and most intolerant form of religious belief,

but our societies will need to figure that out themselves, absent Crusades and jihads..."

Everyone must know, and never be in DENIAL to yourselves, which is there curse, in that ABRAHAMIC & VEDIC [Man-Made and was never supernatural/Deity made] "faith based system(s)" are in reality & fact (On the Face) are POLY-Theology(s) and never Mono-theology's as you [Most folk] miss understood.

SO; To believe in "Jesus as G-d Himself, next to the so-called "Father" means there are two (2) G-D(s)[PLURALITY].

SO: To believe in Moses & Mohammads so called, Gabrial, Elijja, Satan and or "Good" or "Bad" Angels like "Arch Angel" Michael et al, is POLY-Theistic in fact!

So; ALL Abrahamic Religions are in fact PLURALITY-Religion SYSTEM(s).! Note: The Plurality & Never the Singularity except for the U.N. Holy Cosmic Feeling Created "BOOK-Of-O.U.R.S." a/k/a One-Universal-Religion-System.

Note: The Authentic and Genuine "Holiness" of the OURS BOOK!. P.S. You can also call this "HOUR-BOOK" a/k/a Holy-One-Universal-Religion. where "H" is Exactly that, not their old PRE-APOCALYPTIC "ZERO-Holy Infixus Books" of which ECLATi-ON(s), not Eclati-OFF(s) like the Author Above & her Pre-Apocalyptic thinking Inferior Complexor's et al Superstupid/stitious dangerous folk, who otherwise have good potential.

"People of The [Ancient] Book" System(s)[Jew, Christ, Mohammidians, Krishnas, Buddhists et al]are Stupid! Wherefore; Stupid [Inferior] folk(s) are not just a danger to US [Eclati-ON's] but to themselves. SO;

This is why ours great President Mr. G.W. Bush et al [Modern Napolian instilling "Modern-Morality" via Democratizationing Pre-Apopcalyptic thinkers, like turning Europe Up-side-Down , but Mid east instead].

I Salute our Great President whom Eclati-On(s) LOVE Dearly!

Praise the LORD/ECLAT + "i", America & Friends, and ZERO to "ALL" Pre-Apocalyptic believing, backwards Folk. Unless one is Forward or on-wards thinking like ECLATARIONS lik, or folk Like US "Superior" Eclati-On(s) & More Good Tidings that is becoming what IT (Eclat/G0d) has been becoming and showing (inferior People) their "Biblicaly Written [never G-d] Prophecy's REVELATION(s) [Opposite of Secret].

So please take away and or Correct the Sins Running in them "Man-Made-Zero-God-UnHoly-Book(s)! they are truly, and "History is ours Jury" [Do not be in denial again here] WMD's! So:

Ours Boys & Girls in Mid-East is "UNBOLLIXING THE DRUNKEN NOAH STORY & they are Enforcing Eclati-On superiority thinking More!

Note: UnJustly or Because "Pakistan" [Vanguard of Islam] has a Nuke, does not mean they are Smart. The Jews & Germans invented Nuclear. May xtra Photons shine on Maddam "Curry" too.

And; When Iranian's get a nuke Bomb, you must know that they are copycating "Jewish" Genius's & Friends Knowledge. Which means that does not make them smart. As a fact, they are more stupid, therfore more Inferior & Dangerous.

Let's drop an Atomic Bomb on Iran & have Pakman surrender their "Khan" stolen nuclear Bombs. And call IT a Day. And then Peace will come much faster & lesslives will be lost in fact! Ya Ya.

So Biblical WMD and the tyrants or Maniac Theocratics , not Armagedin stupid Man-Made, Zero Eclat made story's of their Lores & man made Epochs & never G-D is the Threat or curse for US!.

P.S. "Jews did not give "Islam" Abraham, like atomic self awared knowledge, Islam Stole & Plagerized, plundered, enslaved & Murdered [Holocausts Killing my ancient Zoroastrian [We are "JOKTAN" not of Abrahamic PELEG] Family, according to my Father's secret or Revelation, in Medina, around Mohammads Time]. So now IT is "Payback." Ya, Ya.

And therefore IT IS TIME to take back ours religion of old 7 replace them infixus Books with "The Book Of OURS! or HOUR-BOOK!

Praise the Holy No-Mon Eclat + i, in and of US ALL! "TOGETHER-FORE-EVER WITH-SOURCE-ONE!"

Together Forever With Source-One!

VOTE: (((((((( Peace-Love-Rock-n-Roll-n-Wrap, Mitt-ROMNEY for Prez, 2008 Ya Ya! ))))))))

Concerned the Christian,

"...I would be beheaded. Does that disturb you?"

It would probably be a relief to all who have to read that relentlessly tired crap you post.

If one theme emerges from this discussion thread, it's the incompatibility of Western and Islamic views on religion and the state. We ought therefore to respect each others' views and desist from interfering in each others' societies. The largest interference, of course, is American Middle East policy, which for 60 years has sought to impose something on the Middle Eastern peoples that they will never accept.That's in the process of collapsing, with tragic results for the region and our own society, which now has disgraced itself with acts of torture and killing people who have not attacked us. It's also encouraged terrorist groups, which cause death and destruction in the Muslim societies, as in Iraq. That will unfortunately live on in those societies, even if America magically and instantly disappeared. Personally, I think monotheism is the worst and most intolerant form of religious belief, but our societies will need to figure that out themselves, absent Crusades and jihads.

Inalienable rights? Here is the reality, the truth:

By Aaron Klein
© 2007 WorldNetDaily.com

JERUSALEM – Christians can continue living safely in the Gaza Strip only if they accept Islamic law, including a ban on alcohol and on women roaming publicly without proper head coverings, an Islamist militant leader in Gaza told WND in an exclusive interview.

The militant leader said Christians in Gaza who engage in "missionary activity" will be "dealt with harshly."

The threats come two days after a church and Christian school in Gaza was attacked following the seizure of power in the territory by the Hamas terror group.

"I expect our Christian neighbors to understand the new Hamas rule means real changes. They must be ready for Islamic rule if they want to live in peace in Gaza," said Sheik Abu Saqer, leader of Jihadia Salafiya, an Islamic outreach movement that recently announced the opening of a "military wing" to enforce Muslim law in Gaza.

Maurie Beck,

Your sweeping (potted?) view of Western history is so full of errors I hardly know when and where to start.

Let's see:

>*all three Abrahamic religions supported autocracy.*

Well, there are a few thousand Christian martyrs that certainly didn't support *Roman* autocracy. There is a famous cathedral in England--Canterbury--site of pilgrimages to the tomb of Thomas a Becket who certainly didn't support Norman English authority. And these two examples are just for a start.

>*the black death destroyed the feudalistic order of The Holy Roman Empire imposed by the Catholic Church.*

Oh Man! Where did you ever get this? Feudalism was an order of society that emerged after the collapse of the Roman Empire in the West--between, say, AD 500-600. It was not--NOT--imposed by the Roman Catholic Church which was a different entity entirely. The Holy Roman Empire was established 200 years *later* by *Charlemagne*, a temporal leader.

>* Following the plague, a number of large changes swept Europe. The two most important were the Italian Renaissance and the Protestant Reformation. Both produced direct threats to Catholic Church authority. *

Well, the Italian Renaissance was well underway *before* the Black Death. If anything, the plague retarded its progress by causing the death of so many painters and artisans.

More about the Renaissance--which originated in Italy--and the Roman Catholic Church later. No time right now.

"the only way sharia will be law in america is if the fools that think islam is really peaceful fall for that lie"

Frank: Check this out

*******************
Welcome to Minnesotistan! America's First Muslim State.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGTqDgBRKYo&mode=related&search

MUSLIMS:

SHARIA LAW - Take it and shove it WHERE THE SUN DON'T SHINE!

We have no use for it in OUR FREE SOCIETY.

LOUIS,
No,you completely wrong.In Turkey,there is 'Secular Democracy' not Muslim Democracy,and it achieved by the secularists not religionists.

ASİM,
They dont think Shariah is cutting the hand off a thief.
Shariah IS cutting the hand off a thief.
As for the thief,both male and female,cut off their hands.5.38

Dalia Mogahed has the cart before the horse. The purpose of government is to protect the rights of the individual from any other individual or groups of individuals. Democratic-Republicanism, a system where the democratic will is wielded through representatives has proven to be the best device for the job, so far. There is a reason that the United States has a fragmented government system. Majorities can excercise power in ways inemical to the rights of individuals, so the system tries to thwart such efforts. Every system of government is a system by which some individuals excercise power over others. The purpose of democracy is to give the individual an avenue to alter that excercise of power. The source of the ideas is irrelavant.

Jerusalem, Athens, and Medina. The author proposes that Medina brought together the two aspects of Western Culture in one city, in effect integrating both the spiritual and secular, while perhaps transcending the inherent conflict and dynamic tension between those two diametrically opposed spheres that roared through the West. As a hypothesis, this sounds plausible. But, as one platitude states, “The proof is in the pudding.” How many western countries and societies have democracy compared to Islamic countries and societies? The only Islamic countries that have more than a semblance of democracy are Indonesia and Malaysia, though at one point Iran had a democratically elected government (overthrown by Britain and the U.S. in 1953). In addition, Pakistan was democratic and will probably be again soon. It would take too long to name all the western-style democracies.

The three major Abrahamic religions (i.e. the three-headed monster of the Middle East; Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) are all monotheistic, and as such, more closely resemble autocracies headed by kings, emperors, sultans, and various other despots than governments governed by popular rule. In fact, all three religions have generally supported autocracies and fought tooth and nail to prevent democratic rule. In the west, this has only changed since the end of WWII. These three religions appear to see a strong leader(s) as part of the natural order of things.

Some have wondered why the West has turned out so differently than the rest of Asia, considering the shared religious ideology. Was it because of the two traditions exemplified by Jerusalem and Athens? This seems unlikely. Athens was but a blip in human history. It became more important as the West opened up and rediscovered the classics. However, Europe began to change prior to this rediscovery.

Some have suggested other forces were at work, such as the Black Death. The Plague Hypothesis states that the black death destroyed the feudalistic order of The Holy Roman Empire imposed by the Catholic Church. Feudalism requires cheap labor (e.g. serfs), and following the plague there was no longer a population to sustain such a system. In addition, the end of the old order introduced the idea that change was possible, which was previously inconceivable. In the old worldview, the Church held that God put everything in its place, as it was meant to be. The plague destroyed that worldview.

Following the plague, a number of large changes swept Europe. The two most important were the Italian Renaissance and the Protestant Reformation. Both produced direct threats to Catholic Church authority. The Church responded with the Counter Reformation, but in spite of the Inquisition’s draconian nature Church authority continued to erode, and as a result, religious wars and persecution continued throughout Europe for centuries. The flux that followed eventually produced The Age of Reason, The Enlightenment, and ultimately our modern world, notwithstanding individual cases of religious recidivism.

So where did modernity come from; Medina’s integration or the inherent conflict between religious dogma and rationalism? History suggests the latter. In fact, history suggests that the reason Islamic societies are so disabled and inferior is that the conflict between those spheres has never been properly contested. Or instead, rationalism just lost. Or perhaps Islamic culture needs more time to be tamed and tempered? I think Dalia Mogahed was correct when she said that the two-worldviews are diametrically opposed and irreconcilable. Regardless, I doubt Shari’a is anything but a look back to failure.

It would've been better for the Post to allow their panelists to write commentary and not make available for people to add comments. I say this because this was intended to be a forum to understand faith and get more spiritually focused. Instead, it tends to be filled with people who only have vile and disgusting things to say. None can call themselves people of faith, because their actions are reprehensible and idiotic. Go to the many hate sites on the Net and spew this venomous speech.

And yet the Middle Eastern and Asian implementation of Sharia and Islamic Democracy is so very different from the West. While many Americans may indicate that they would like to see significant changes in the American political system -- even sounding fundamentalist at times -- few sane people are leaving America for more fundamentalist Christian nations.

The same can not be said for islamic nations. When muslims leave islamic nations, they generally don't leave for more fundamentalist nations. As evidence, Iraqi immigration/refugee patterns would seem to indicate that given a choice between Iranian Theocracy and Syrian Monarchy, they would rather have an Assad over an Amadinajad.

Lastly, if you still believe that Sharia holds a candle to the West, I would suggest that you post on Tehran's version of the WaPo the following phrase:

ALLAH SUCKS.

Here such a statement doesn't draw riots. There they would issue a fatwa condemning you to death, if not burn their own houses and businesses down just to demonstrate that their appall at such a statement.

Mrs Mogahed,

in which universe are you living? Can't be this one.

You urgently need to get real about the consequences of running a society based on religion. They are murderous, West, East, South, North. Islam is not excluded, actually there are so many signs that it currently is the worst perpetrator.

Religion and power do not mix, full stop. They will always lead to abuse. Only a system that allows to put in question all the principles it has can succeed. And it might be that many of those question turn out not to be necessary. But trailing off this principle means regression and no progress for any society. And it means easy abuse for those in power.

You're far off the mark, in a differnt universe.

Roz

Thanks for the YouTube links to CBC National program clips on the intimidation moderate muslims in Canada are experiencing from some fundamentalist muslins.... it is ok for a fundamentalist imman to urge a boycott of advertisers in a progressive muslim newspaper but not ok to declare the newspaper apostasy, heretical etc. when it is reasonable to know that language is inciting bodily violence of the publisher.....
.....
.....re selective immigration to curtail extreme differences that would undermine the existing fundamental values of a society: I agree that a society has a right to do this and be INTELLIGENT in doing this so that it is not just racist against any group that is superficially different (eg. the church of english British blocking the immigration of catholic Britishers; Englanders blocking the immigration of the Irish, etc).....
I think a society should advertise its fundamental values to prospective immigrants (freedom of speech even when it is not respectful of a religion, gender equality,etc)so they can self-select themselves to an extent, and good economic opportunities and inclusion in multiculturally based institutions such as schools etc. so that newcomers and established citizens and their children speak and listen to each other....
got to go: watching Little Mosque on the Prairies on the CBC.... smiley

My best friend in Junior High was a muslim named Suleiman. Sulu's uncle was killed following a kangaroo court trial under Sharia law in Libya. He was accused, Sulu claimed unfairly, of violating the fast of Ramadan and whipped until he was dead. All the cousins, brothers, etc were forced to watch at gunpoint. The family escaped on a boat to Italy soon after. I hope you feel proud of Sharia law. I hope you feel very proud. One of my best friends at age 12 was what I considered a devout muslim (no pork, prayed 5 times a day, talked about Islam in school) lost his innocence while forced to watch the whipping death of his uncle BECAUSE THE UNCLE WAS ACCUSED BY ONE WITNESS OF BREAKING A FREAKING FAST!

Again, I hope you feel proud.

Usama,

You're talking about legal systems that have been dead for over a millenium.

Sure, the West had democracy and republicanism in Athens and Rome but then we had the Dark Ages. After 2000 years of political liberation, we reinvented these ancient concepts.

Even if we accept your argument that the first four caliphs were great - that's not Islam today. Your discussions on Mohammed (a conquering tyrant who converted by the sword, but according to you governed nicely afterwards) are irrelevant to modern-day interpretations of Islam in relation to modern political liberalism.

Americans don't wax poetic on the glory of Rome - we pulled ourselves out of the Dark Ages and found our own glory. Maybe it's about time the Islamic world did the same.

I respect that people are thinking about this matter concerning Shari`ah, but there is still a gap in knowledge which precludes sound conclusive observations.

Steve, Shari`ah did NOT bring the Saudi family to power. They are a figment of European colonialism as are all the kings of the Muslim world, ala Morocco, Jordan, Brunei. And the Islamic Revolution in Iran did not bring Shariah to power, rather Iran compromised the Shariah to form a hybridization similar to Pakistan.

DKM, there is no nation state today which represents the minimal implementation of Islam. Not Iran, Saudi Arabia, not Pakistan. However, the era of caliphates and Ottoman sultanates did represent Islam to varying degrees, the first 40 years being the pinnacle. During the first 4 caliphates (and subsequent others), the caliphate avoided adopting any single school of thought to govern the entire state. Rather, provincial govts were allowed to adopt differing legal schools of thought so that Damascus adopted one school, Egypt another, Yemen and Madinah yet others. In matters of fundamental jurisprudence (Usul ul fiqh), the caliphate would adopt certain matters pertaining to his office, yet abstain from adopting in provincial matters to allow for diversity. Even the Prophet (saaw) encouraged diversity of legal interpretations.

As well, the model of Islamic rule is the era of the Prophet Muhammad (saaw) and his first 4(or 5) successor caliphates. During their time, they adopted what amounts to a contract with the people as the basis of their candidacies. This is documented in known legal textbooks. These contracts serve as a kind of constitutional adoption which the people advance of their fundamental jurisprudential positions from their candidates. Some candidates adopted it, such as Umar and Uthman (the 2nd and 3rd caliphs), while others did not, such as Ali (ra) (the 4th caliph). The 5th caliph, Hassan (ra), grandson of the Prophet (saaw) was said to follow the contract of his father, Ali (ra). Today, the people can still present certain fundamental jurisprudential positions in Shariah which they expect of the caliph/presidential candidates were they to have a state governed by Shariah. Instead they suffer with oppressive regimes who rule by decrees and force and elevate themselves above Shariah.

The most critical factor out of the original essay is to note that the Shariah serves to restrict the oppressiveness of man when men are so used to legislating their affairs for their individual and biased interests. There are many matters of Shariah which critics avoid, such as economics. Shariah presents an entire economic system distinct from both the capitalist model and the socialist/communist model. But that's another topic.

michael in ontario:

To my fellow canadians, let's not be intimidated by radical islamists; Let's email/write to 'Canada immigration services', let them know your concerns about muslims immigrations, I know I did. When I received my answer, I was aggreably surprised at how much the Federal Governement are concerned themselves, regarding islamic immigration.

The law of silence prevails for muslims.
-Free speech under islam is definitely impossible because they hate the truth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImVEhlfd0UE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CxrRpjEiXA

Poor moderate muslim, or whatever, think they can forge faith and fact as the same thing. Well it would be then called fact and would not require faith. So the moderates talk infinitely in ever expanding circles. I appreciate your sentiment to be muslim and civilized but faith is not reality based. In the real world I contend the burden to prove your faith lies with your God and not consensus. BTW I note that many muslims don't do pork. Are you aware that BBQ pork in America is not likely to be sacrificed for your grand scheme?
This is a whimsical point but it understates something that Islamic culture does not seem to grasp. We will not compromise with any religion and even the Christian influence in this country is tolerated and recessing. People just claim to be christian because it sounds good but I'd be surprised if even 5% knew that even Christians can't get their story straight. In other words, we wear faith as a facade but we would never accept any religion to actually crimp our lifestyles. Sorry, muslims, grow up!

Shariah comes in 4 schools of thought for Sunnis, with a separate one for Shi'a. Interpretations differ, and generally the school of thought utilized is the one traditionally adhered to in a general area. This has changed somewhat since the Saudi Wahabis have been funding mosques and proselytism throughout the muslim world, making their interpretations (stricter than many others) more common, and the Iranian Mullahs have gotten more power throughout the Shiite world. The Taliban point of view is a combination of Saudi Wahhabi strictness with the traditions of the Pashtun tribes of Afghanistan and Pakistan. It's at least as much Pashtun as Muslim.

What seems to be missing in this discussion is an understanding of what Shari'ah is. It is not just from the Qur'an, but rather incorporates a second strand of material, called Hadith. These are sayings of the prophet Mohammed, and descriptions of his behavior which, if the sources were deemed reliable, influenced people to follow his example.

There is also a principle in Islam that consensus should rule the community. It's something like "Whatever a majority of my people decide must be correct." The quote is not quite right, but that's the gist of it. There are bases for democracy in Islam; it just has to be modified so that it fits the parameters of the religion. And more importantly, the Muslim nations need to differentiate between culture and religion, and stop using religion to justify culturally based oppression. That, of course, is the hardest part.

Asim,

You accuse the people above of making generalizations and then you make generalizations yourself concerning these people. I'm neither bigoted nor closed minded, but frankly, I find much more in common with the majority of posts than I do with your statements.

I'm willing to explore your ideas, however. For argument's sake, let's assume that democracy is the enactment of God's will via the Umman's voice and Islam is a constraint on the actions of government much like the US Constitution.

What about all the other nasty things of Islam? There's a VERY small community of women speaking out for womens' rights, but the vast majority of muslims of both sexes ignore these. Islam demands not only extremist reactions to minor offenses, but has no honor for general individual rights beyond a handful of specifics rights (it would be like looking at the Bill of Rights and assuming those were the only rights Americans had.) Where's the movement in the Middle East that protests someone committing adultery from being stoned to death? Seriously - if ten people took to the streets in Riyadh to protest these cruel and unusual punishments George Bush and Fox News would be playing the clips of the protests 24-7, all the while touting "the President's policies growing democracy in the Middle East."

As long as Islam demands actions that invalidate individual liberty, a culture unresponsive to liberty in general will perpetuate. Liberal ideas didn't just appear one day in the West - it grew over centuries from liberal ideas inherent in cultures (take a little bit of Anglo/Scandinavian self-government, stir with French/German fraternity, and throw in a dash of Swiss decentralized governance) that coalesced during the Enlightenment. Liberalism isn't incompatible with the Middle East, it simply can't coexist with the political tenets of Islam. The word "Islam" itself implies the Western notions of submission to God instead of a liberal God endowing the people with inalienable liberty.

History proves me true. Democracies in the Middle East are either weak (Lebanon) or skew along the axis of religious extremes (Turkey's radical secularism versus Iran's theocracy).

Submitting to the will of God and governing yourself are simply incompatible.

Spin, I didn't know that I owned the government! I have to start taking WAY more advantage of that. And the grocery stores. I cannot BELIEVE I have to pay for food when I own the grocery stores! And I have to pay interest on loans at the banks! What's up with that? I'll have to proclaim my Jewishness way more clearly from here on out.

From what I have read, Sharia comes in at least four flavors that are about as different as chocolate and vanilla. Some of them are very repressive and some are more liberal. So when we talk about Sharia, we need to be a bit more specific. My question is how does a country decide which form will count as the law in that country, and what is to prevent some tyrant from chosing whichever flavor happens to suit him at the time? And even though it is "the Word of God," since it is dispensed by religious scholars, what is to prevent them from each using their own interpretation? We have seen how different interpretations of the same passage of Christian scripture can be. I doubt that the Quran is any less ambiguous.

"America’s key to helping build authentic, popularly supported democracy in this region of the world."

Understanding Muslim loyalties?

ISLAM_Welcome to New York City

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-LC5yJQzH8

" Tim:

"Peganplace, I agree with what you have said and well said it was. You probably won't agree with what I've got to say.

"It is a shame that these guys try to twist everything. Like yesterday trying to tell us what free thinkers they are. Or how about the one about the Holocaust never taking place. Or how about it is our fault they attacked on 911. Now, today we hear that Sharia in Muslim understanding represents those inalienable rights each person is endowed with by their creator..."

Well, Tim, (sorry I missed this earlier: had a power outage and now I have to go out.)

Let's just say that I'm not as naive as extremists and absolutists keep trying to paint me as.

While I don't agree that there are no redeeming qualities (poor choice of words, I suppose) to any Muslims or real progressives sincerely trying to reform things, I do acknowledge the abuses and some of the distortions: if I judged Christianity by the same standards (and to the extent I do,) you guys don't come off looking so rosy, either.

I *do* stand strongly on the side of liberty, civility, and education.. of *both sides.* A nuanced view that accepts the human dignities and viewpoints involved.

And I'm more concerned with what this xenophobia seems to be turning my *America* into, particularly inasmuch as it encourages *Christianist* extremism, and all.

Doesn't mean I take it all at face value, but Muslims should be allowed to have their say. Instead of being merely denigrated by the ignorant.

The author looks at the slim majority of Muslims who think that Shari'a should only be "a part" of the equation in coming up with laws, while ignoring the fact that the specific religious tenets in the Koran are still SPECIFIC RELIGIOUS LAWS.

Anytime "Jerusalem" is allowed to build a little theme park inside Athens, it spells trouble. There's no such thing as "just a little" influence of a specific religion on a country's laws. Once a group of religious officials are allowed to vet the laws, the state has surrendered to the idea of an official state religion - something that Athens doesn't allow.

If Muslims really believe in the laws expressed in their book, they're welcome to practice them among themselves as much as they like, as long as they don't try to force others to bend to their will and have no official sanction, as is the case in essentially every Muslim-majority country in the world. Until that point comes, this Muslim Utopia version of "Athens-lite" is a still form of theocracy. Considering the anti-modernist, anti-equality, anti-freedom stances of true Islam, I'm not sure how anyone in the west could possibly consider that to be harmless or good.

Dalia,

Other observations you might want to comment on:

There are 1 billion plus Muslims in the world because of "sword-forced" conversion and forced procreation. Considering the contemporary Islamic truth/death squads and "koranic" rules, things have not changed. Give freedom to the Muslim masses trapped under Islamic tyranny and watch what happens.

Any Gallup poll numbers on how many Muslims have access to this discussion??

And if I lived in Iran or other Islamic states and noted that Mohammed was an illiterate, hallucinating Arab who had contemporary or future scribal henchmen writing their own "koranic" militant agendas for plundering/looting the lands of non-believers, I would be beheaded. Does that disturb you?

Many other people put it better than I can, I'll just highlight a few points.

There is a reason Turkey was against it, and a similar reason they have the highest standard of living for any nation in the 'Muslim' world. Education. Educated people make better decisions.

There was a good 1200-1400 years of societal laws in Western Europe based on the bible. It pretty much ended with the religious wars of the 16th century where wholesale slaughter over being Catholic or Protestant went wild over a good 100 year period. People eventually got tired of slaughtering each other, partly out of compassion but probably more likely out of the disappointment of being really able to slaughter all of the other side. Seems to me this has a current historical interface within the Shia/Sunni struggles today.

Religious faith is fine, we've learned in Western Civilization to respect each others differences. Check back with me when the Muslim faith matures to that level. I don't think I'll still be around, but somewhere around 2400 AD seems to be a good target date.

Islam, sharia or not, won't tolerate me or my lifestyle. I shutter the possiblity of America and fair Europe under Islamic laws. Those laws are not meant for people of European heritage. I'm not saying christian law is either (and our freedom has vastly diminished in recent era under the rule of the neocons). May the religious right never gain full control of our government either. They are the american taliban.

As long as sharia is interpreted by humans it will be unjustly applied.

As long as humans follow other humans who claim they are "holy" death and destruction will surely follow.

As long as people are intimidated by others and social stigma Sharia will never be what the Prophet intended

As long as people allow religeous leaders to condemn one for being an "infidel", none will be safe. Islam is more conservative today than it was in the 10th century and is no longer peaceful and loving as the prophet intended.

WHAT HOLY PERSON KILLS?

Dalia -that's some backwards thinking.

"Dalia Mogahed, outreach coordinator for the Pittsburgh mosque, agrees on Muhammad's respect for women but says Nomani is viewing the issues through the eyes of a secular feminist rather than the eyes of a Muslim. And Mogahed, who was born in Egypt, believes Nomani's essays are implicitly anti-Arab."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04132/314380.stm

.... a brief story from Ontario, Canada where a year or so ago some Muslims attempted to get Sharia law recognized within voluntary family law tribunals still then in place..... the existing religion based tribunals were Jewish (and I think, Catholic); the judgements of these tribunals were appealable to civil courts if unconscienable and hardly any one used them.....when some muslins applied to Ontario govt. for the same right as Jews to set up a Sharia based family law tribunal, there was debate both with the muslim and womans rights communities...... the Ontario govt., recognizing that it would be unequal to allow some religious communities to have such family law tribunals while others were denied them - and realizing that Muslim woman gently coerced into using such tribunals by their communities would receive patriarchial judgements - the provincial govt. abolished all such religion based family law tribunals.... with narly a protest at the time or since.....
...... diversity, multiculturalism, assimilation, inclusion, equality, group and individual interests are things open to rational discussion as to what is another step in progressive humanity
and what is a step backward
......
btw, congratulations to Massachuetts for not reopening their decision to allow gays and lesbians to marry...it is not amazing tha FUD - fear, uncertainity and doubt - diminished in just a couple of short years of people seeing that married gays and lesbians are just like us, no threat to the social fabric and yes, a equal right

.... a brief story from Ontario, Canada where a year or so ago some Muslims attempted to get Sharia law recognized within voluntary family law tribunals still then in place..... the existing religion based tribunals were Jewish (and I think, Catholic); the judgements of these tribunals were appealable to civil courts if unconscienable and hardly any one used them.....when some muslins applied to Ontario govt. for the same right as Jews to set up a Sharia based family law tribunal, there was debate both with the muslim and womans rights communities...... the Ontario govt., recognizing that it would be unequal to allow some religious communities to have such family law tribunals while others were denied them - and realizing that Muslim woman gently coerced into using such tribunals by their communities would receive patriarchial judgements - the provincial govt. abolished all such religion based family law tribunals.... with narly a protest at the time or since.....
...... diversity, multiculturalism, assimilation, inclusion, equality, group and individual interests are things open to rational discussion as to what is another step in progressive humanity
and what is a step backward
......
btw, congratulations to Massachuetts for not reopening their decision to allow gays and lesbians to marry...it is not amazing tha FUD - fear, uncertainity and doubt - diminished in just a couple of short years of people seeing that married gays and lesbians are just like us, no threat to the social fabric and yes, a equal right

"DEMOCRACY is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.

LIBERTY is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!"

Again it is about the foundations of Islam. Dalia please address the following issues before again trying to support Muslim theocracies.

The hallucinations, the illiteracy of the "profit"/fortune teller, the obvious plagiarism, the militaristic and anti-female passages, the call for world domination, the 72 virgins, the state of heaven (spiritual vs. physical), the chariot rides, the required belief in mythical angels, the many sects, the new "fortune tellers", the no-escape clauses?????????????????????

And your group is financially supported by whom?

I am Going on a Sabbitical. See You's, brethren(s) Sistar(s) et al, [G-d] Eclat willing, on or around Sept. 15th! In Shallah, Praise Jesus, Moses, Zoroastrian, Mahammad, Krishna, Buddha, Sikh, Quanza, et al et al!

Praise the Lord! And May "ALL" Eclati & Eclati-on's and their posterity's be healthy & happy always! Praise Be Thee LORD/ECLAT + "i"! SHOLOM!

"We LOVER ALL Humate-Kind" Together forever with Ecalt + "i" forever, and death do US part!

Love!

Most believers want God on their side; in their tent, in their leaders, in their rituals and in their government.

God has always dwelled exclusively in the hearts of His believers and no place else. God is jealous and won't be found anywhere else but in the heart and through the faith of a believer.

Robert:
Your ignorance of Islam is appalling:the items you mentioned has nothing to do with Islam.

OURS Ears are Closed.

WE've seen enough, contrarian prophecy's of your Stupid lores. excuse A S I M. not ASS-ume! Ya ya!

Dalia,
Your article is succinct and articulate considering how difficult it is to explain Shariah to a western audience conditioned to the memory of a brutal church rule in Europe-later ejected and replaced by democracy.
The problem is that the west lives such a dichotomy, it has no other choice: Separation of church and state is dictated because the church has no divine body of law-only concerned with personal salvation-Give to Cesar what is unto him and to god what is unto him. Islam however combines the two in one, the Shariah-The Prophet was a law giver-Jesus was not :"I have come to fulfill and not to change the law."
If democracy is the rule by and for the people-the primacy of the Ummah, that is the Muslim Community-then Islam is unequivocally democratic.

Many of postings here show profound ignorance of Islam and of Shariah: they think Shariah is cutting the hand of a thief!!! Many of the postings are Polemists and Islam bashers-recycled many times over on these threads and not the least interested to listen and learn about the Other..

What did Thomas Jefferson swear? He swore eternal hostility to any tyranny over the minds of men. To whom did he refer as the source of this tyranny? Churchly zealots of his day who wanted to install their brand of Christianity as the state religion of America, despite John Adam's Treaty of Tripoli which confirmed (by unanimous Senate vote) that the U.S. was NOT a Christian (or Jewish or Muslim) nation. How does the zealotry that Jefferson rebuffed relate to fascism? Remember Huey Long said, "Fascism will come to America as a Cross draped in The Flag". Read Chris Hedges' new book, "American Fascism", where he credibly traces fascistic elements within the new "Dominionist" movement among our Christian fundamentalist megachurches that so resemble the Wahabbis in mindless fervor and vulgar dogmatism. . Are these zealots anywhere close to the nuclear trigger? Are Pentagon "Dominionists" liable to provoke Armageddon just because they think the Book of Revelation and Pat Robertson tell them to? The pious General William Boykin asserted, "The enemy we are fighting in the Middle East is Satan!" and "My God is bigger than their god." The Air Force Academy is becoming a Dominionist incubator. No, radical Islam is the least of our worries. Here in America we've our "new crazies" to deal with.

I always thought the bit about the Pakistani Imam demanding that the villages men gang rape a young woman for the ?sins? of her brother to truly show what a compassionate, forgiving, tolerant and democratic religion Islam is being interpreted as.

WOW! ROBERT, THE INSIGHT MON & The "Pre-Apocalyptic PATTERN & RECOGNITION MONSa Mono's Mon's!!