yes mr baum, taking care of widows and orphans is one of the pillars of the islamic faith-
a person who takes 2 orphan females and raises them to maturity is guaranteed entrance to paradise, that is how strongly it is exhorted.
mr patel is , as always, trying to reinforce the unity of people- go to a daniel pipes website and see the hatred and malice he constantly tries to spread using theclash of civilizations as a rally point.
mr patel wasnt saying that ideas are dangerous- but this "work" has certainly been used to justify alot of prejudice and misplaced hatred.
as for turkey, they are having their election on july 22nd.
its a country that tried total secularism, even to the point of trying to eradicate religion completely (obviously without success).
can you imagine what would happen in america if we undertook such a social experiment?
they are trying a true blend of democracy and religion.
"The bolshevik Revolution in russia was the work of Jewish planning and Jewish dissatisfaction. Our Plan is to have a New world Order. what worked so wonderfully in Russia, is going to become Reality for the whole world." -- The American Hebrew Magazine, 10, Sept. 1920
Hammar, chief Zionist money raiser, said, 'When the blood flows,
the money flows.'"
(Lawrence Mosher, National Observer, May 18, 1970)
"Israel won the war [WWI]; we made it; we thrived on it;
we profited from it. It was our supreme revenge on Christianity."
(The Jewish Ambassador from Austria to London, Count Mensdorf, 1918)
"Zionism was willing to sacrifice the whole of
European Jewry for a Zionist State. Everything was done to
create a state of Israel and that was only possible through a
world war. Wall Street and Jewish large bankers aided the war
effort on both sides. Zionists are also to blame for provoking
the growing hatred for Jews in 1988."
(Joseph Burg, The Toronto Star, March 31, 1988).
"I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it"...Voltaire
True religion is taking care of widows and orphans. We are all God's children and aren't we one big dysfuntional family. Jesus was and is who He said that He is and that is God in the flesh not some second-rate prophet. Just because a lot of people call themselves christians does not mean that they are. Christianity is not a religion but a covenential relationship with the Triune, Triumphant God. God is Love, Pure Love, a consuming Fire of Pure Love. Judaism is not a religion either but a covenential relationship between God and a people. Jesus was a Jew and His mom was a Jew also. Islam is a religion and it is a religion of world domination, I do not hold it against Mohammed that he was deceived by the deceiver himself. Almighty God is a searcher of hearts and minds and not a searcher of religious affiliations or lack thereof. Knowing God's Name is not the same thing as knowing God. I happen to be the New Testament Moses and I am here to tell the whole world that God wins, satan loses and that a tie is unacceptable. I have met God and He is not the raving, hate-filled, egomaniac that you would think that He is by listening to what a lot of people that know His Name say. We are not at a clash of civilizations but at the climax of history, dire times are coming, be ready. Actually I posted this same message near the top of this posting but I thought I would repost it. To put it into simple words: God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable, God's Plan is for the salvation of All Of Humanity, We shall all be in the Kingdom of God or the Kingdom of Love whichever you wish to call it because God is a Being of Pure Love. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.
Jacob, my friend! Frank is an ECLATi-OFF and I don't think he'll ever be an ECLATi-ON. He thrives on hate and bigotry. May a black hole suck him up where the PHOTONs never shine!
Jacob Jozevz IT is "From Catterpilar TO Butterfly" Time:
Att: Warm Heart, Fraaaaank C, et al;
I'm pasting something that I found so so funny and I thought that ANY Humate [blogger] who has "Winggy Thingy superstupid-stitions" {not "supercalafra....."] ideas in their heads & hearts, molded by some "Most Evil "Story's" ever Told" by some genuine Satanic lores etc.. via,
the PRE-Apocalptical Era(s) and still readting or being read those Sexual guilt Story's and Birth is a sin storys etc in 21st Century, and acting like Cave folk [Eclati-OFF] armed with modern weapons. Thanks to "Islamic Religious Mafiaoso's international" et al!?
Note: These words are incredidlble, chewable & edable too ".. If Ms. M... can show me a single reference to devil worship [or any other type of worship, for that matter] in any of the Harry Potter books, I will eat the entire series with fava beans and a nice Chianti..."
- Lepidopter (insect are beautiful).
< ?:+)/
Eeee Haa round and round WE go and Where LOVE stops Nobody Knows. If Any.
How much can One Fart? If so then WE do not Need Brooms sticks & All those Pre-Apocalyptic Zero Unholy, by very Dangerous Books, Can go fly a kite!
Ya Ya, all you unwise ZILZALian's whom must "SUMITT" to OURS great ECLAT = "i" or Perish!
.
i see you all the time and you might actually have something good and intelligent to communicate, so may i suggest that you only post after your meds have kicked in and before the benefits go away.
OK,CCNL,I guess you would have done to Islam what Armstrong, Crossan, Spong et al have done for Christianity, especially for the mainline Protestant churches. (Just look at the success of the US Episcopalian church!)
Address the problem i.e. ISLAM IS OUT OF CONTROL. There is no central leadership. The SOP aka Koran/Book of Death continues to provide the 24/7 guidelines for the bloodbaths in Iraq and Afghanistan and the daily jailings of innocents in Iran, Egypt, Pakistan and Indonesia with perodic suicide bombings to keep the citizens of these countries in constant fear of Islamic fundamentalists.
What can the liberal On Faith Islamic panelists do
about the situation??? As noted many times, clean up the Koran: Again, here are some recommended starting points. (Considering that none of the panelists have taken on the challenge gives credence that they fear for their lives or are not as liberal as their poems and "niceties" lead us to believe. Islamic propaganda money paying their salaries?? Probably so in many cases).
Part 1 of the "cleansing".
"The 77 Branches of Faith is a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true faith (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.
"30 qualities are connected to the heart"
(five at a time)
"1. Belief in Allah"
No problem but "aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added.
"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."
No problem but evolution and the Big Bang cannot be ignored and the "akas" for Allah should be included.
"3. To believe in the existence of angels."
A major item to delete. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.
"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."
Another major item to delete. There are no books written in Heaven just as there are no angels to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.
Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.
Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.
"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."
Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.
Many Christian NT exegetes like Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen of the On Faith panel have cleansed the NT. Again, it is time to cleanse the Koran!!!!!!!!!!!
You're a truly sad individual, Frank, and I do pity you.
They didn't just take the ideas of others (because of course we all build on the work of others, including those we conquer as the Romans, the British, and even the US did), they built on them, brought them together, and preserved them for us to have today. The Muslims gave us the Scientific Method (although I'd venture to guess that you don't buy into science either), optics, fixed the problems with classic geometry, and even began investigating the prospect of a heliocentric solar system 300 years before the Europeans did. The great strides of Islam disappeared when the Caliphate collapsed due to failed leaders and the Mongul conquest. And I'm sorry I don't have time or care enough to write you a doctoral thesis with purely academic citations (as if youtube or any of your anti-Islamic blogs qualify either), but if you have issue with it, why don't you critique it on its merits rather than just lazily write it off, as you do with apparently everything else you disagree with.
And can you even read? I didn't say they were infrequent, I said to blame them on Islam is to further demonstrate your ignorance. They are an effect of regional tribalism, not the Islamic faith (Which is why the countries you mentioned are within the same geographic area). The two are separate issues.
And on the 90% question, why don't you go find me a site that suggests more than 120 million people, or 10% of the Islamic world, are members of al Qaeda or support the overthrow of all things Western and a return to the Caliphate. They may not like us and many can even understand the emotions of the terrorists, but they are definately not on board with them.
And anonymous, whoever the heck you are, of course there was an Armenian genocide and of course there was a Jewish holocaust, only a total fool or a manipulative liar would say otherwise. What does that have to do with anything I'm talking about here. I'm not defending the takfiri murderers of the world.
No, Frank, it looks like your parents breed hate-filled, vile, angry people.
The Abassyd Caliphate is responsible for saving every bit of Greek and Roman knowledge that we have today as the foundation for our society while the "civilized" Christian world was busy burning people at the stake for being heretics and destroying all reminants of that pagan society. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age
Read again, Frank. You're still not addressing your double standards or admitting where you've wronged me in the exact same way you claim to be being wronged by 'Islamics.'
The largest Islamic nation in the world is also the third largest democracy in the world. Outside of the Arab world, democracy and Islam go hand in hand, along with the toleration of other faiths and value systems. That demonstrates pretty clearly that it is other aspects of Arab society, NOT the Islamic faith, that is the problem and causes the reaction that it does.
the Arabs have been out of control of Islam since the fall of the Caliphate in 1258, and it has become the rallying cry of a few fringe radicals to restore it in the name of restoring the Arab world. This after Pan-Arabism, Ba'thism, and every other Arab ideology over the past century has failed. Islam is a cover for an Arab political power play, and very few have bought into it to include the leaders of virtually every Arab nation in addition to most of their populations. Don't buy the hype.
"pagan you are just wrong. you cant seem to separate the commands of the god of the person and the acts of the person."
Actually, my point is, that's exactly *your* problem. :)
You *insist* I 'hate the heck out of Christians,' when, in fact, I say repeatedly, I don't. I couldn't *live* that way, not even in America. You just *call* it 'hateful' when I point out you have serious double-standards. Heck, I get accused of 'hating' Christians for *not obeying your tabooes.*
Cause you feel *entitled* to 'assimilate' the world, and seem to have things turned around to justify feeling you're being 'oppressed' when not allowed to *control* others.
Apparently some Christians think that it might cost them their souls if they aren't allowed to have their way.
I simply say, whoever uses what compulsion, ...and I've been subjected to a great deal, that this is not *possible.*
I don't even hate *you,* Frank, as horrible as you've generally been to me. I see you're in pain and fear and trying desperately to reason your way around some pretty darn fascist ideas that hurt you and your relationship to the world.
Can't say I've got warm and fuzzy feelings about either Islam or Christianity, as ideologies, but bigotry just isn't the way, dude.
Even if it *does* come to a fight, hatred can only make you lose yourself. If not end up tragically slaying your own friends and/or kids. We got Pagan teachings about that. Lots of em.
Besides, we're kind of theological scavengers at times. We'll take 'love your neighbor' if you're not using it. *buff.* Shiny.
Ali (Arab Christian) is right: Huntington's thesis articulates the clash between Islam (Sharia) and Secularism (West).
I might add, that academic polemics aside, Ali has made the point. To let America be what it is now, like a country full of sinful, lewd, loose western values, one needs to prevent Islam from growing inside USA. There are two practical ways of doing just that:
(1) Reduce (or eliminate) the level of Muslim immigration (legal/illegal) into USA. Those who don't agree with the broad aspects of First Amendment (Free Speech) should not be here in the first place.
(2) Cutoff relations with Muslim countries, by way of reducing/eliminating trade and cultural relations.
Ali, it is a pleasant surprise to know that you are a Arab Christian.
Most Islamic Hadiths are false, politicaly and racially motivated. Judging Islam by hadith is like judging Christianity by every edict passed by the vatican church after Jesus. It is a fact that many hadiths are anti jews, anti women and yes even anti Mohammed himself. It is because of some political hadith that Mohammed's own family was massacred in Karbala, Iraq.
Unlike hadith, the Quran calls Jews and muslims people of the book, and not once has it labeled them as infidels. Moreover the Quran even says that Jews,christians, and mulims (in that order) who live their lives and obey the messengers sent to them will enter heaven. That is more generosity than I have seen coming from Jews or Christians towards non-beleivers.
Most Islamic Hadiths are false, politicaly and racially motivated. Judging Islam by hadith is like judging Christianity by every edict passed by the vatican church after Jesus. It is a fact that many hadiths are anti jews, anti women and yes even anti Mohammed himself. It is because of some political hadith that Mohammed's own family was massacred in Karbala, Iraq.
Unlike hadith, the Quran calls Jews and muslims people of the book, and not once has it labeled them as infidels. Moreover the Quran even says that Jews,christians, and mulims (in that order) who live their lives and obey the messengers sent to them will enter heaven. That is more generosity than I have seen coming from Jews or Christians towards non-beleivers.
Frank, if you applied the same logic to Christianity as you do to Islam, you would have to insist that you must be a liar about the 'tolerance' of Christianity (and, apparently, thus by extension, actually an 'evil Islamic' yourself?) because Dominionists post on Youtube and rant about Pagans on Christian radio.
And, Stanislaus, living up to pluralistic standards of multiculturalism isn't 'craven indulgence.'
It's what America, at least, is all about.
Our revolution came after a long history of Catholicism and Protestantism *not playing well with others,* and established, at least for us, an environment where religions *can* thrive without the corruptions of state power.
If you can *not chicken out and cravenly clutch for what we know you can't handle.*
The "Clash of Civilizations" is meaningless without a reference to religion and an acceptance of western norms of behavior and governance. Catholicism is the foundation of western civilizations as is attested through institutions of medicine, scholarship, the arts, music, philosophy, ritual, and education. This is what Benedict XVI spoke of the inextricable bond between faith and reason that supplies our values and norms. Faith without reason (Hinduism & Buddhism) is fiction as is the belief in monkey and elephantine gods and rebirths that connect the human and animal kingdom. Reason without faith is nihilistic and walls off informed experience.
To the extent that Islamic and Hindu cultures are polar opposites to western traditions, it is inconceivable for the west to assimilate millions of these people without craven indulgence in multiculturalism and not risk violent conflict.
"what is good about this? if someone said this is what they believe would you want them as a friend?
The Hadith No. 284, The Muslim, volume one, says that any Jew or Christian, who heard of Muhammad but did not convert to Islam, and died in disbelief, would rot in hell! Thus Islam withdraws from all Jews and Christians the right to believe in their faiths, and practice them as such."
Then Christians do the same. Trust me. They come to the front door to wake me up and insult me as an 'idolator' ...try and terrorize our kids with threats of eternal torture, threaten me and tell me they don't think the law and my civil rights *apply* to what they want to do because they believe nonbelievers *don't count.*
I don't find *that* particularly friendly, but I don't see you even admitting it happens, never mind cleaning your *own* house* of such people, as you seem to demand of Muslims.
Sure, I have Christian friends. They somehow manage to not see me and my people, or Muslims that way.
Cause that choice is *yours.*
You take such horrible indignance at getting 'lumped in with Hindus,' *gasp!* while calling 'Islamics' irredeemably-evil, then lumping *me* in with *them.*
No, it's not completely safe out there in the world. I think it's your sense of *entitlement* that means you can't *evaluate* these things in a human perspective.
I see terrorism as an unconscionable act of human sacrifice, intended to cast a spell of fear and war in order to validate some twisted vision of what a God demands.
I thought it would have a statement of grief or condolenses or just an acknowledgment of loss. Nothing. Well, I guess they did speak of their "loss" of civil rights.
And the old testament tells the Jews to kill nonbelievers who wander among them. The Qu'ran and the hadith also teach that Christians, Jews, and Zoroastrains are people of the book and should be protected so long as they submit to living within the Islamic state. Get over it, you'll lose every time.
The fact is, 90% of the Islamic world rejects the clash of civilizations and rejects the minority of them who want to declare war on the West. That doesn;t mean they love us and are running to our side with open arms, it just means that there's still a gap that will liekly narrow over time as we come closer as a people. Buying into the "clash of civilizations" is a self fulfilling prophecy. If we define Islam as the enemy as nut-jobs like Frank have, and we prosecute a global struggle under that premise, that will be the result, but it will be of our own doing, not theirs. Read Buillet's book, The Case for Islamo-Christian Civilization, or this article for some more perspectives:
Frank, the *bigotry* is when you say, 'Islamics are bad, you're with me or against me...' heck, you started calling *me* Islamic for disagreeing with your self-defined importance of spamming these boards while people are trying to have intelligent conversations.
It's your insistent black-and-white view of the world that turns it into bigotry.
You merely demonstrate 'how to make enemies of people.'
People who are the only ones who can really change things. You see 'evil people' everywhere. And appear to be willing to give up all America stands for by *setting really low standards for yourself and your own religious ideology.*
You can't even hear *yourself,* it seems, which you might want to work on if you're wondering why your 'message' isn't 'received' like you think it should be.
Maybe *you* ought to read this book under discussion. I intend to. I could use some signs of hope, myself.
Frank:
The "islamics" or Muslims (as the civilized world calls them) were expressing grief over the death of innocent Americans, not because they "felt bad after they murdered 3,000 innocents". Their on your side!
ALL of the Muslims I know hate terrorism as much as you and I (red-blooded Americans). Why do you insist on lumping all Muslims together?
What's you endgame? Do you think we should kill 1.4 billion Muslims? or ask them all to give up their religion?
Perhaps some of you should read the book before refuting it. There seem to be a lot ignorant posters
out there. The idea that Muslims across this country have not come out against terrorism is foolish. How many times do they have to do this?
See here: http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm#Statements%20from%20Leading%20American%20Muslim%20Organizations:
Ahmed, Patel and many others have condemned terrorism countless times. This does not make the nightly news because as Patel pointed out"media continues to provide a microphone and a stage for religious totalitarians" (not those making statements about peace and compassion who represent the rest of the Muslim world). When they do, bigots like Mr. Frank Collins tell us that they are trying to deceive us.
Are American Christian leaders asked to apologize after every abortion clinic bombing? Are Hindu leaders asked to condemn every act by the Tamil Tigers? Are Rabbis (and i am Jewish) asked to apologize every time a child is killed in Palestine?
Let's be fair here. Read the book. I know of Akbar Ahmed's work and I am sure that he is critical of those Muslims acting in violence.
This forum is being ruined the hateful and bigoted comments.
"pagan:
these are not extramists - they are you everyday islamic and the goals of islam. why do you deny what your eyes see and your ears hear?"
Actually, I don't. I've told you what my eyes have seen and my ears have heard, and even what my body's felt under certain blows.
...What I've maintained is that people aren't *limited by their words.* The ones *you* follow say similar things, or at least things that have been taken in certain ways.
I *know* people aren't *limited* in the way you seem to insist we all must be. Because I've seen the best and, yes, some of the *worst* in people.
Frankly, the *best* in people is usually *despite* the holy books, and the worst, well, everyone's got an excuse.
It usually involves fear of 'otherness.'
I've told you I see bad things in these religions.
And questioned repeatedly what you propose to *do* besides scream *Evil!" and stop thinking.
Say you successfully incited me to the violence you won't say, but seem to think, is the only response. Certainly you have no *reasoned* one.
Who am I supposed to hurt that will fix that?
It doesn't even *matter,* Frank: there's no fixing things that way.
Frankly, I'm a little more concerned that you can't see *humans* in these 'enemies' you construct in the name of a guy who said, 'Love your enemies.'
Of course, even *that* has been twisted around by many.
Who want to say that there's an inevitable clash to the death of 'civilizations.'
I don't find it civilized at *all.*
"its not like islam has been peaceful for its entire existence and this just happened. it has been happening since moho first attacked mecca and took over by force."
Again, if you were willing to judge your Christianity by the same standards, I apparently should be screaming how 'Christians are evil, look at what they've said and done.'
It all looks more or less the same to me, Frank.
I say, "What are we gonna do about it?"
For starters, let's not let medieval SOBs talk for either of us.
It is this exact "understanding" of each other that many cultures on this planet fear, and which is why their is perpetually a clash of civilizations, even if some clashes are utterly small, and some larger (ie, Iraq). The fact is that many cultures on this planet view understanding as giving in to Western culture. As far as America returning to equality and empathy, well despite what people say--we are in an era of chronic complaining and whining--America is a very eqaul and open place. And as a result we have open borders, 12 milion illegals, a flooded prison system, a besieged court system etc etc. Try selling the empathy and openess to other countries like Iran, Venezuala, China, even South Korea and see what you get.
Fine column, good words.
PROBLEM IS, good people of faith are not the deciders.
Please try to read Dan Fromkin's column today...Monday 6/4. We all knew the Jewish neocons, who infest the American security establishment...not only want Iran bombed, revolution in Russia...but, and it is related by an impeccable source (see) some neocons have ecouraged Taiwan to declare independence from China (clearly against American policy)...AND china has said that would mean WAR. The better to start a conflagration.
The Neocons and Israel want the US, and the rest of the world, always at war. Should you
want to doubt this, read the plan PROJECT FOR A NEW AMERICAN CENTURY...easy to find. Written by neocons whose names you know and handed to Netanyahu, part of the group. Still believe the
the good intentioned sweet religious types can
change the clash? We read about it all in estimable places now. In plain sight. Few doubt it.
But when will we act? Does no one care? The long, long plan at work.
Fine column, good words.
PROBLEM IS, good people of faith are not the deciders.
Please try to read Dan Fromkin's column today...Monday 6/4. We all knew the Jewish neocons, who infest the American security establishment...not only want Iran bombed, revolution in Russia...but, and it is related by an impeccable source (see) some neocons have ecouraged Taiwan to declare independence from China (clearly against American policy)...AND china has said that would mean WAR. The better to start a conflagration.
The Neocons and Israel want the US, and the rest of the world, always at war. Should you
want to doubt this, read the plan PROJECT FOR A NEW AMERICAN CENTURY...easy to find. Written by neocons whose names you know and handed to Netanyahu, part of the group. Still believe the
the good intentioned sweet religious types can
change the clash? We read about it all in estimable places now. In plain sight. Few doubt it.
But when will we act? Does no one care? The long, long plan at work.
The "Clash of Civilizations" actually originates not with Huntington, but with Bernard Lewis who coined the phrase that Huntington built upon. Both of these scholars frame their worldview from a very limited perspective based on some flawed premises.
In Lewis's case, he became one of the great Western scholars on Islam while studying the Turks in the 1950s, as they were attempting to build a secular democracy. This unfortunately colored his whole view of the Islamic world because he was so taken in by the secularists and became a great fan of Attaturk, while mistakenly lumping all opposition to him the be the fault of Islam while blaming Islam for the failings of the Ottoman Empire, rather than economics and failed leaders. He grew to see the Islamic world as a monolith and the Western world as another, throwing out the years of internal strife within these cultures, the variance within them, and how they had interacted and overlapped for centuries.
Huntington takes his premise and runs with it, but toned it back in his book a bit more than he did in his original article that led to the eventual book.
The fact is, Islam is an important part of the culture of much of the world, but it doesn't define most of it as we in the west like to think because it makes for convenient labels. We have allied and warred with various factions for centuries, we have learned, traded, and interacted with one another, and even our two major religions are rooted in the same faith group and grew along side one another. There are numerous cultural differences, but that doesn't lead us to an imminent "clash," but more likely a continued growing process, which at times will make us stronger, and at times we will struggle with as some resist. Just as the Aisan world isn't a single bloc, Africa is divided among numerous cultures, so is Islam. It's time this flawed thesis is thrown into the trash heap of history where it belongs.
What it all boils down to is that until we all accept fully each others right to believe whatever cockamamie things we wish provided that they cause direct harm to know one there will indeed be warms and rumors of war.
"Since the latter paragraph seems to presuppose that there is a clash of civilizations, whereas the former one seems to suggest that there is not, the reader is left to wonder where exactly Prof. Ahmed's work stands on this important issue."
I think, Pat, you may be expecting a stronger statement than Mr. Patel is actually trying to relate, here: it's a different thing to say that there is no essential and inevitable clash between the West and Muslim culture, and that no clashing happens.
Clearly, some 'clashing' is happening, but it does *not* have to go down like this. Like the extremists on both sides say.
Maybe it *is* in fact, the 'young' people who can see past that picture of inevitable war and conflict.
I dunno if I still count as 'young' anymore, but I will say that someone better.
I think after reading the posts I realized many seem to be misunderstanding the intent of the article. This was not an article to hash out the incorrectness of Huffington or the correctness of Akbar. Prof. Patel lectures on Huffington and only used his book as a counter example to Akbar. Suggesting that Akbar provides an alternative to the "clash of civilzations" idea and then endorsing only that we all should read Akbar's book in order to give us a more well rounded experience of the theory. As for those posting examples of instances where Muslims have been intolerant is exactly the idea being driven home. This is not a condemnation of non-Muslims this a wake up call to all. We all need to reform our ways and look to the moderates and not to the extremists in our midst for examples.
Hi. I was a bit confused after reading the post. In paragraph 11, the author writes:
"He suggests that each return to its own first principles – democracy and equal rights for America, knowledge and balance for Islam – implying that, at bottom, these civilizations are not only compatible but can learn a great deal from one another."
But earlier, in paragraph 9, he wrote:
"[The book] affirms the idea that the clash of civilizations is ultimately going to be ended when young people are able to connect and understand one another."
Since the latter paragraph seems to presuppose that there is a clash of civilizations, whereas the former one seems to suggest that there is not, the reader is left to wonder where exactly Prof. Ahmed's work stands on this important issue.
Ideas are the most dangerous of fuels. But to suggest that the conflict between Islamists and the World represents a more fundamental rift seems to ignore a lot of history. History after all is replete with many examples of such self-destructive violence and in every case, such cultures inevitably self-destruct.
There are many people in the World today with deeply held and sometimes conflicted and contradictory beliefs. Those beliefs comprise religious, ethical, political elements, yet the thread of global "civilization" endures as a complex mixture of those beliefs.
The other "civilization", presumably the Islamists, also has people with equally deeply held and equally conflicted beliefs. The one big difference is that the Islamists have developed an elaborate pretext and justification for violence. This violence goes against any and all persons with whom they disagree, even those of their own Faith.
Unfortunately, this kind of violent episode can last many. many years...as did Nazism, Stalinism, Maoism...and result in many unnecessary deaths. The fire of these Islamists' inherently self-destructive and unworkable ideas will fade after their novelty fades...and after many more innocent victims die.
Civilization? Hardly. The irony of the conflict is that the Islamists threat only exists because of the development of our global Civilization. They are part of it, not opposed to it. But ideas are the most dangerous of fuels after all.
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can u gv me picture n detail of your convocation robe?i juz wanna do a reserch.
December 31, 2007 6:39 AM | Report Offensive Comments
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December 13, 2007 5:46 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 13, 2007 05:46
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December 13, 2007 4:30 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 13, 2007 04:30
http://moreaboutmen.com/genre/rock-gothic/g583/
December 13, 2007 4:30 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 13, 2007 04:30
hello world !! http://viagra.bloggcasting.com/
October 1, 2007 7:47 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 1, 2007 07:47
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September 15, 2007 4:52 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on September 15, 2007 16:52
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September 15, 2007 4:51 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on September 15, 2007 16:51
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September 15, 2007 4:49 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on September 15, 2007 16:49
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September 2, 2007 5:36 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on September 2, 2007 17:36
m652k
August 18, 2007 12:45 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on August 18, 2007 12:45
yes mr baum, taking care of widows and orphans is one of the pillars of the islamic faith-
a person who takes 2 orphan females and raises them to maturity is guaranteed entrance to paradise, that is how strongly it is exhorted.
mr patel is , as always, trying to reinforce the unity of people- go to a daniel pipes website and see the hatred and malice he constantly tries to spread using theclash of civilizations as a rally point.
mr patel wasnt saying that ideas are dangerous- but this "work" has certainly been used to justify alot of prejudice and misplaced hatred.
as for turkey, they are having their election on july 22nd.
its a country that tried total secularism, even to the point of trying to eradicate religion completely (obviously without success).
can you imagine what would happen in america if we undertook such a social experiment?
they are trying a true blend of democracy and religion.
June 28, 2007 10:59 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 28, 2007 10:59
"The bolshevik Revolution in russia was the work of Jewish planning and Jewish dissatisfaction. Our Plan is to have a New world Order. what worked so wonderfully in Russia, is going to become Reality for the whole world." -- The American Hebrew Magazine, 10, Sept. 1920
Hammar, chief Zionist money raiser, said, 'When the blood flows,
the money flows.'"
(Lawrence Mosher, National Observer, May 18, 1970)
"Israel won the war [WWI]; we made it; we thrived on it;
we profited from it. It was our supreme revenge on Christianity."
(The Jewish Ambassador from Austria to London, Count Mensdorf, 1918)
"Zionism was willing to sacrifice the whole of
European Jewry for a Zionist State. Everything was done to
create a state of Israel and that was only possible through a
world war. Wall Street and Jewish large bankers aided the war
effort on both sides. Zionists are also to blame for provoking
the growing hatred for Jews in 1988."
(Joseph Burg, The Toronto Star, March 31, 1988).
"I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it"...Voltaire
June 8, 2007 9:19 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 8, 2007 09:19
True religion is taking care of widows and orphans. We are all God's children and aren't we one big dysfuntional family. Jesus was and is who He said that He is and that is God in the flesh not some second-rate prophet. Just because a lot of people call themselves christians does not mean that they are. Christianity is not a religion but a covenential relationship with the Triune, Triumphant God. God is Love, Pure Love, a consuming Fire of Pure Love. Judaism is not a religion either but a covenential relationship between God and a people. Jesus was a Jew and His mom was a Jew also. Islam is a religion and it is a religion of world domination, I do not hold it against Mohammed that he was deceived by the deceiver himself. Almighty God is a searcher of hearts and minds and not a searcher of religious affiliations or lack thereof. Knowing God's Name is not the same thing as knowing God. I happen to be the New Testament Moses and I am here to tell the whole world that God wins, satan loses and that a tie is unacceptable. I have met God and He is not the raving, hate-filled, egomaniac that you would think that He is by listening to what a lot of people that know His Name say. We are not at a clash of civilizations but at the climax of history, dire times are coming, be ready. Actually I posted this same message near the top of this posting but I thought I would repost it. To put it into simple words: God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable, God's Plan is for the salvation of All Of Humanity, We shall all be in the Kingdom of God or the Kingdom of Love whichever you wish to call it because God is a Being of Pure Love. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.
June 6, 2007 11:30 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 6, 2007 11:30
Jacob, my friend! Frank is an ECLATi-OFF and I don't think he'll ever be an ECLATi-ON. He thrives on hate and bigotry. May a black hole suck him up where the PHOTONs never shine!
June 5, 2007 2:43 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 5, 2007 14:43
Frank:
How come you never talk about Islam's goal of using a nation's laws against them until their numbers have overcome that nation's population?
June 5, 2007 10:23 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 5, 2007 10:23
Another war of words:
Kathleen Parker: Too soon to celebrate Muslim assimilation in U.S.
http://www.recordnet.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070603/A_OPINION0616/706030315/-1/A_OPINION06
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070603/OPINION01/706030302/-1/LOCAL17
June 5, 2007 10:08 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 5, 2007 10:08
Ali -
Prior to discussing the Pew Research Poll, I would highly recommend you read this article from MSNBC:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18853924/site/newsweek/?nav=slate?from=rss&msour
Over all, that poll was great news. Please don't buy into the media hype that skewed the numbers to increase their ratings.
June 5, 2007 9:36 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 5, 2007 09:36
Att: Warm Heart, Fraaaaank C, et al;
I'm pasting something that I found so so funny and I thought that ANY Humate [blogger] who has "Winggy Thingy superstupid-stitions" {not "supercalafra....."] ideas in their heads & hearts, molded by some "Most Evil "Story's" ever Told" by some genuine Satanic lores etc.. via,
the PRE-Apocalptical Era(s) and still readting or being read those Sexual guilt Story's and Birth is a sin storys etc in 21st Century, and acting like Cave folk [Eclati-OFF] armed with modern weapons. Thanks to "Islamic Religious Mafiaoso's international" et al!?
Note: These words are incredidlble, chewable & edable too ".. If Ms. M... can show me a single reference to devil worship [or any other type of worship, for that matter] in any of the Harry Potter books, I will eat the entire series with fava beans and a nice Chianti..."
- Lepidopter (insect are beautiful).
< ?:+)/
Eeee Haa round and round WE go and Where LOVE stops Nobody Knows. If Any.
How much can One Fart? If so then WE do not Need Brooms sticks & All those Pre-Apocalyptic Zero Unholy, by very Dangerous Books, Can go fly a kite!
Ya Ya, all you unwise ZILZALian's whom must "SUMITT" to OURS great ECLAT = "i" or Perish!
.
June 5, 2007 9:33 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 5, 2007 09:33
Deb Chatterjee=Shamefully Blatant Racist
June 5, 2007 8:04 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 5, 2007 08:04
Frank Collins,
i see you all the time and you might actually have something good and intelligent to communicate, so may i suggest that you only post after your meds have kicked in and before the benefits go away.
June 5, 2007 7:56 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 5, 2007 07:56
OK,CCNL,I guess you would have done to Islam what Armstrong, Crossan, Spong et al have done for Christianity, especially for the mainline Protestant churches. (Just look at the success of the US Episcopalian church!)
Somehow, I think Muslims will decline.
June 5, 2007 6:22 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 5, 2007 06:22
To repeat yet once again:
Address the problem i.e. ISLAM IS OUT OF CONTROL. There is no central leadership. The SOP aka Koran/Book of Death continues to provide the 24/7 guidelines for the bloodbaths in Iraq and Afghanistan and the daily jailings of innocents in Iran, Egypt, Pakistan and Indonesia with perodic suicide bombings to keep the citizens of these countries in constant fear of Islamic fundamentalists.
What can the liberal On Faith Islamic panelists do
about the situation??? As noted many times, clean up the Koran: Again, here are some recommended starting points. (Considering that none of the panelists have taken on the challenge gives credence that they fear for their lives or are not as liberal as their poems and "niceties" lead us to believe. Islamic propaganda money paying their salaries?? Probably so in many cases).
Part 1 of the "cleansing".
"The 77 Branches of Faith is a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true faith (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.
"30 qualities are connected to the heart"
(five at a time)
"1. Belief in Allah"
No problem but "aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added.
"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."
No problem but evolution and the Big Bang cannot be ignored and the "akas" for Allah should be included.
"3. To believe in the existence of angels."
A major item to delete. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.
"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."
Another major item to delete. There are no books written in Heaven just as there are no angels to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.
Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.
Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.
"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."
Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.
Many Christian NT exegetes like Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen of the On Faith panel have cleansed the NT. Again, it is time to cleanse the Koran!!!!!!!!!!!
June 5, 2007 3:33 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 5, 2007 03:33
You're a truly sad individual, Frank, and I do pity you.
They didn't just take the ideas of others (because of course we all build on the work of others, including those we conquer as the Romans, the British, and even the US did), they built on them, brought them together, and preserved them for us to have today. The Muslims gave us the Scientific Method (although I'd venture to guess that you don't buy into science either), optics, fixed the problems with classic geometry, and even began investigating the prospect of a heliocentric solar system 300 years before the Europeans did. The great strides of Islam disappeared when the Caliphate collapsed due to failed leaders and the Mongul conquest. And I'm sorry I don't have time or care enough to write you a doctoral thesis with purely academic citations (as if youtube or any of your anti-Islamic blogs qualify either), but if you have issue with it, why don't you critique it on its merits rather than just lazily write it off, as you do with apparently everything else you disagree with.
And can you even read? I didn't say they were infrequent, I said to blame them on Islam is to further demonstrate your ignorance. They are an effect of regional tribalism, not the Islamic faith (Which is why the countries you mentioned are within the same geographic area). The two are separate issues.
And on the 90% question, why don't you go find me a site that suggests more than 120 million people, or 10% of the Islamic world, are members of al Qaeda or support the overthrow of all things Western and a return to the Caliphate. They may not like us and many can even understand the emotions of the terrorists, but they are definately not on board with them.
And anonymous, whoever the heck you are, of course there was an Armenian genocide and of course there was a Jewish holocaust, only a total fool or a manipulative liar would say otherwise. What does that have to do with anything I'm talking about here. I'm not defending the takfiri murderers of the world.
June 5, 2007 1:47 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 5, 2007 01:47
Michael? Was there a Jewish Holocaust?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0EjM-b0vm8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93q_sQMjbG4
June 4, 2007 11:52 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 4, 2007 23:52
No, Frank, it looks like your parents breed hate-filled, vile, angry people.
The Abassyd Caliphate is responsible for saving every bit of Greek and Roman knowledge that we have today as the foundation for our society while the "civilized" Christian world was busy burning people at the stake for being heretics and destroying all reminants of that pagan society.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age
"honor killings" are also Arab tribalist and not inherently Islamic, but nice to throw that one in there as well since it helps illustrate my point. http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/05/18/iraq.honorkilling/index.html
June 4, 2007 11:39 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 4, 2007 23:39
And we must not forget the Armenian Genocide:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70oL7ig4ZBU
June 4, 2007 11:20 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 4, 2007 23:20
Read again, Frank. You're still not addressing your double standards or admitting where you've wronged me in the exact same way you claim to be being wronged by 'Islamics.'
June 4, 2007 11:17 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 4, 2007 23:17
All of these youtubes are beginning to look alike. Muslims declaring jihad on their neighbor. This is:
Indoctrination to Hatred and Jihad against India by Pakistan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4GjrwQmxAA
June 4, 2007 11:09 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 4, 2007 23:09
The largest Islamic nation in the world is also the third largest democracy in the world. Outside of the Arab world, democracy and Islam go hand in hand, along with the toleration of other faiths and value systems. That demonstrates pretty clearly that it is other aspects of Arab society, NOT the Islamic faith, that is the problem and causes the reaction that it does.
the Arabs have been out of control of Islam since the fall of the Caliphate in 1258, and it has become the rallying cry of a few fringe radicals to restore it in the name of restoring the Arab world. This after Pan-Arabism, Ba'thism, and every other Arab ideology over the past century has failed. Islam is a cover for an Arab political power play, and very few have bought into it to include the leaders of virtually every Arab nation in addition to most of their populations. Don't buy the hype.
June 4, 2007 10:56 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 4, 2007 22:56
Are You Spliffin Mon? Eeee Haaaa Ya Ya!
June 4, 2007 10:49 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 4, 2007 22:49
"pagan you are just wrong. you cant seem to separate the commands of the god of the person and the acts of the person."
Actually, my point is, that's exactly *your* problem. :)
You *insist* I 'hate the heck out of Christians,' when, in fact, I say repeatedly, I don't. I couldn't *live* that way, not even in America. You just *call* it 'hateful' when I point out you have serious double-standards. Heck, I get accused of 'hating' Christians for *not obeying your tabooes.*
Cause you feel *entitled* to 'assimilate' the world, and seem to have things turned around to justify feeling you're being 'oppressed' when not allowed to *control* others.
Apparently some Christians think that it might cost them their souls if they aren't allowed to have their way.
I simply say, whoever uses what compulsion, ...and I've been subjected to a great deal, that this is not *possible.*
I don't even hate *you,* Frank, as horrible as you've generally been to me. I see you're in pain and fear and trying desperately to reason your way around some pretty darn fascist ideas that hurt you and your relationship to the world.
Can't say I've got warm and fuzzy feelings about either Islam or Christianity, as ideologies, but bigotry just isn't the way, dude.
Even if it *does* come to a fight, hatred can only make you lose yourself. If not end up tragically slaying your own friends and/or kids. We got Pagan teachings about that. Lots of em.
Besides, we're kind of theological scavengers at times. We'll take 'love your neighbor' if you're not using it. *buff.* Shiny.
June 4, 2007 10:42 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 4, 2007 22:42
Ali (Arab Christian) is right: Huntington's thesis articulates the clash between Islam (Sharia) and Secularism (West).
I might add, that academic polemics aside, Ali has made the point. To let America be what it is now, like a country full of sinful, lewd, loose western values, one needs to prevent Islam from growing inside USA. There are two practical ways of doing just that:
(1) Reduce (or eliminate) the level of Muslim immigration (legal/illegal) into USA. Those who don't agree with the broad aspects of First Amendment (Free Speech) should not be here in the first place.
(2) Cutoff relations with Muslim countries, by way of reducing/eliminating trade and cultural relations.
Ali, it is a pleasant surprise to know that you are a Arab Christian.
June 4, 2007 10:29 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 4, 2007 22:29
Ya!
June 4, 2007 10:24 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 4, 2007 22:24
Most Islamic Hadiths are false, politicaly and racially motivated. Judging Islam by hadith is like judging Christianity by every edict passed by the vatican church after Jesus. It is a fact that many hadiths are anti jews, anti women and yes even anti Mohammed himself. It is because of some political hadith that Mohammed's own family was massacred in Karbala, Iraq.
Unlike hadith, the Quran calls Jews and muslims people of the book, and not once has it labeled them as infidels. Moreover the Quran even says that Jews,christians, and mulims (in that order) who live their lives and obey the messengers sent to them will enter heaven. That is more generosity than I have seen coming from Jews or Christians towards non-beleivers.
June 4, 2007 10:13 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 4, 2007 22:13
Most Islamic Hadiths are false, politicaly and racially motivated. Judging Islam by hadith is like judging Christianity by every edict passed by the vatican church after Jesus. It is a fact that many hadiths are anti jews, anti women and yes even anti Mohammed himself. It is because of some political hadith that Mohammed's own family was massacred in Karbala, Iraq.
Unlike hadith, the Quran calls Jews and muslims people of the book, and not once has it labeled them as infidels. Moreover the Quran even says that Jews,christians, and mulims (in that order) who live their lives and obey the messengers sent to them will enter heaven. That is more generosity than I have seen coming from Jews or Christians towards non-beleivers.
June 4, 2007 10:13 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 4, 2007 22:13
Interesting, Ya Ya Momma Poppa, Monsa Minio/s et al! ECLAT is Watching :=). Ya ya!
June 4, 2007 10:11 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 4, 2007 22:11
Frank, if you applied the same logic to Christianity as you do to Islam, you would have to insist that you must be a liar about the 'tolerance' of Christianity (and, apparently, thus by extension, actually an 'evil Islamic' yourself?) because Dominionists post on Youtube and rant about Pagans on Christian radio.
And, Stanislaus, living up to pluralistic standards of multiculturalism isn't 'craven indulgence.'
It's what America, at least, is all about.
Our revolution came after a long history of Catholicism and Protestantism *not playing well with others,* and established, at least for us, an environment where religions *can* thrive without the corruptions of state power.
If you can *not chicken out and cravenly clutch for what we know you can't handle.*
This xenophobia just won't work.
June 4, 2007 10:09 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 4, 2007 22:09
The "Clash of Civilizations" is meaningless without a reference to religion and an acceptance of western norms of behavior and governance. Catholicism is the foundation of western civilizations as is attested through institutions of medicine, scholarship, the arts, music, philosophy, ritual, and education. This is what Benedict XVI spoke of the inextricable bond between faith and reason that supplies our values and norms. Faith without reason (Hinduism & Buddhism) is fiction as is the belief in monkey and elephantine gods and rebirths that connect the human and animal kingdom. Reason without faith is nihilistic and walls off informed experience.
To the extent that Islamic and Hindu cultures are polar opposites to western traditions, it is inconceivable for the west to assimilate millions of these people without craven indulgence in multiculturalism and not risk violent conflict.
June 4, 2007 9:55 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 4, 2007 21:55
DON'T YOU BELIEVE IT. VISIT:
http://islamisbad.com
ALWAYS JUDGE FOR YOURSELF.
...
June 4, 2007 9:49 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 4, 2007 21:49
"what is good about this? if someone said this is what they believe would you want them as a friend?
The Hadith No. 284, The Muslim, volume one, says that any Jew or Christian, who heard of Muhammad but did not convert to Islam, and died in disbelief, would rot in hell! Thus Islam withdraws from all Jews and Christians the right to believe in their faiths, and practice them as such."
Then Christians do the same. Trust me. They come to the front door to wake me up and insult me as an 'idolator' ...try and terrorize our kids with threats of eternal torture, threaten me and tell me they don't think the law and my civil rights *apply* to what they want to do because they believe nonbelievers *don't count.*
I don't find *that* particularly friendly, but I don't see you even admitting it happens, never mind cleaning your *own* house* of such people, as you seem to demand of Muslims.
Sure, I have Christian friends. They somehow manage to not see me and my people, or Muslims that way.
Cause that choice is *yours.*
You take such horrible indignance at getting 'lumped in with Hindus,' *gasp!* while calling 'Islamics' irredeemably-evil, then lumping *me* in with *them.*
No, it's not completely safe out there in the world. I think it's your sense of *entitlement* that means you can't *evaluate* these things in a human perspective.
I see terrorism as an unconscionable act of human sacrifice, intended to cast a spell of fear and war in order to validate some twisted vision of what a God demands.
Let's break this spell and remember the humans.
Now, chill.
June 4, 2007 9:47 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 4, 2007 21:47
Frank, I am in full agreement with you on this. The video on CAIRs site titled:
CAIR FL discusses impact of 9/11
http://www.cair.com/default.asp?Page=articleView&id=43831&theType=NB
I thought it would have a statement of grief or condolenses or just an acknowledgment of loss. Nothing. Well, I guess they did speak of their "loss" of civil rights.
June 4, 2007 9:24 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 4, 2007 21:24
And the old testament tells the Jews to kill nonbelievers who wander among them. The Qu'ran and the hadith also teach that Christians, Jews, and Zoroastrains are people of the book and should be protected so long as they submit to living within the Islamic state. Get over it, you'll lose every time.
The fact is, 90% of the Islamic world rejects the clash of civilizations and rejects the minority of them who want to declare war on the West. That doesn;t mean they love us and are running to our side with open arms, it just means that there's still a gap that will liekly narrow over time as we come closer as a people. Buying into the "clash of civilizations" is a self fulfilling prophecy. If we define Islam as the enemy as nut-jobs like Frank have, and we prosecute a global struggle under that premise, that will be the result, but it will be of our own doing, not theirs. Read Buillet's book, The Case for Islamo-Christian Civilization, or this article for some more perspectives:
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0411.hirsh.html
June 4, 2007 9:19 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 4, 2007 21:19
Frank, the *bigotry* is when you say, 'Islamics are bad, you're with me or against me...' heck, you started calling *me* Islamic for disagreeing with your self-defined importance of spamming these boards while people are trying to have intelligent conversations.
It's your insistent black-and-white view of the world that turns it into bigotry.
You merely demonstrate 'how to make enemies of people.'
People who are the only ones who can really change things. You see 'evil people' everywhere. And appear to be willing to give up all America stands for by *setting really low standards for yourself and your own religious ideology.*
You can't even hear *yourself,* it seems, which you might want to work on if you're wondering why your 'message' isn't 'received' like you think it should be.
Maybe *you* ought to read this book under discussion. I intend to. I could use some signs of hope, myself.
June 4, 2007 8:48 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 4, 2007 20:48
Frank:
The "islamics" or Muslims (as the civilized world calls them) were expressing grief over the death of innocent Americans, not because they "felt bad after they murdered 3,000 innocents". Their on your side!
ALL of the Muslims I know hate terrorism as much as you and I (red-blooded Americans). Why do you insist on lumping all Muslims together?
What's you endgame? Do you think we should kill 1.4 billion Muslims? or ask them all to give up their religion?
June 4, 2007 8:47 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 4, 2007 20:47
Perhaps some of you should read the book before refuting it. There seem to be a lot ignorant posters
out there. The idea that Muslims across this country have not come out against terrorism is foolish. How many times do they have to do this?
See here: http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm#Statements%20from%20Leading%20American%20Muslim%20Organizations:
Ahmed, Patel and many others have condemned terrorism countless times. This does not make the nightly news because as Patel pointed out"media continues to provide a microphone and a stage for religious totalitarians" (not those making statements about peace and compassion who represent the rest of the Muslim world). When they do, bigots like Mr. Frank Collins tell us that they are trying to deceive us.
Are American Christian leaders asked to apologize after every abortion clinic bombing? Are Hindu leaders asked to condemn every act by the Tamil Tigers? Are Rabbis (and i am Jewish) asked to apologize every time a child is killed in Palestine?
Let's be fair here. Read the book. I know of Akbar Ahmed's work and I am sure that he is critical of those Muslims acting in violence.
This forum is being ruined the hateful and bigoted comments.
June 4, 2007 8:17 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 4, 2007 20:17
"GARY:
how do you negotiate with people who think god wrote their holy book - AND THE BOOK DEMANDS YOU DEATH?"
Having some experience in the matter, I find that 'walk softly and carry a good stick' is an oldie but a goodie.
Better, though. Humanize. You, them, everyone.
People have in them much better than this.
Swear to the Gods.
June 4, 2007 8:15 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 4, 2007 20:15
i recently interviewed Dr. Ahmed, and found him to be incredibly thoughtful, realistic and hopeful. his ideas are very based in reality:
http://www.intmag.org/interviews.php?itemid=2704
June 4, 2007 8:14 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 4, 2007 20:14
"pagan:
these are not extramists - they are you everyday islamic and the goals of islam. why do you deny what your eyes see and your ears hear?"
Actually, I don't. I've told you what my eyes have seen and my ears have heard, and even what my body's felt under certain blows.
...What I've maintained is that people aren't *limited by their words.* The ones *you* follow say similar things, or at least things that have been taken in certain ways.
I *know* people aren't *limited* in the way you seem to insist we all must be. Because I've seen the best and, yes, some of the *worst* in people.
Frankly, the *best* in people is usually *despite* the holy books, and the worst, well, everyone's got an excuse.
It usually involves fear of 'otherness.'
I've told you I see bad things in these religions.
And questioned repeatedly what you propose to *do* besides scream *Evil!" and stop thinking.
Say you successfully incited me to the violence you won't say, but seem to think, is the only response. Certainly you have no *reasoned* one.
Who am I supposed to hurt that will fix that?
It doesn't even *matter,* Frank: there's no fixing things that way.
Frankly, I'm a little more concerned that you can't see *humans* in these 'enemies' you construct in the name of a guy who said, 'Love your enemies.'
Of course, even *that* has been twisted around by many.
Who want to say that there's an inevitable clash to the death of 'civilizations.'
I don't find it civilized at *all.*
"its not like islam has been peaceful for its entire existence and this just happened. it has been happening since moho first attacked mecca and took over by force."
Again, if you were willing to judge your Christianity by the same standards, I apparently should be screaming how 'Christians are evil, look at what they've said and done.'
It all looks more or less the same to me, Frank.
I say, "What are we gonna do about it?"
For starters, let's not let medieval SOBs talk for either of us.
If you wanna *become* one, that's your business.
June 4, 2007 8:07 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 4, 2007 20:07
It is this exact "understanding" of each other that many cultures on this planet fear, and which is why their is perpetually a clash of civilizations, even if some clashes are utterly small, and some larger (ie, Iraq). The fact is that many cultures on this planet view understanding as giving in to Western culture. As far as America returning to equality and empathy, well despite what people say--we are in an era of chronic complaining and whining--America is a very eqaul and open place. And as a result we have open borders, 12 milion illegals, a flooded prison system, a besieged court system etc etc. Try selling the empathy and openess to other countries like Iran, Venezuala, China, even South Korea and see what you get.
June 4, 2007 7:52 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 4, 2007 19:52
Fine column, good words.
PROBLEM IS, good people of faith are not the deciders.
Please try to read Dan Fromkin's column today...Monday 6/4. We all knew the Jewish neocons, who infest the American security establishment...not only want Iran bombed, revolution in Russia...but, and it is related by an impeccable source (see) some neocons have ecouraged Taiwan to declare independence from China (clearly against American policy)...AND china has said that would mean WAR. The better to start a conflagration.
The Neocons and Israel want the US, and the rest of the world, always at war. Should you
want to doubt this, read the plan PROJECT FOR A NEW AMERICAN CENTURY...easy to find. Written by neocons whose names you know and handed to Netanyahu, part of the group. Still believe the
the good intentioned sweet religious types can
change the clash? We read about it all in estimable places now. In plain sight. Few doubt it.
But when will we act? Does no one care? The long, long plan at work.
June 4, 2007 7:36 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 4, 2007 19:36
Fine column, good words.
PROBLEM IS, good people of faith are not the deciders.
Please try to read Dan Fromkin's column today...Monday 6/4. We all knew the Jewish neocons, who infest the American security establishment...not only want Iran bombed, revolution in Russia...but, and it is related by an impeccable source (see) some neocons have ecouraged Taiwan to declare independence from China (clearly against American policy)...AND china has said that would mean WAR. The better to start a conflagration.
The Neocons and Israel want the US, and the rest of the world, always at war. Should you
want to doubt this, read the plan PROJECT FOR A NEW AMERICAN CENTURY...easy to find. Written by neocons whose names you know and handed to Netanyahu, part of the group. Still believe the
the good intentioned sweet religious types can
change the clash? We read about it all in estimable places now. In plain sight. Few doubt it.
But when will we act? Does no one care? The long, long plan at work.
June 4, 2007 7:36 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 4, 2007 19:36
The "Clash of Civilizations" actually originates not with Huntington, but with Bernard Lewis who coined the phrase that Huntington built upon. Both of these scholars frame their worldview from a very limited perspective based on some flawed premises.
In Lewis's case, he became one of the great Western scholars on Islam while studying the Turks in the 1950s, as they were attempting to build a secular democracy. This unfortunately colored his whole view of the Islamic world because he was so taken in by the secularists and became a great fan of Attaturk, while mistakenly lumping all opposition to him the be the fault of Islam while blaming Islam for the failings of the Ottoman Empire, rather than economics and failed leaders. He grew to see the Islamic world as a monolith and the Western world as another, throwing out the years of internal strife within these cultures, the variance within them, and how they had interacted and overlapped for centuries.
Huntington takes his premise and runs with it, but toned it back in his book a bit more than he did in his original article that led to the eventual book.
The fact is, Islam is an important part of the culture of much of the world, but it doesn't define most of it as we in the west like to think because it makes for convenient labels. We have allied and warred with various factions for centuries, we have learned, traded, and interacted with one another, and even our two major religions are rooted in the same faith group and grew along side one another. There are numerous cultural differences, but that doesn't lead us to an imminent "clash," but more likely a continued growing process, which at times will make us stronger, and at times we will struggle with as some resist. Just as the Aisan world isn't a single bloc, Africa is divided among numerous cultures, so is Islam. It's time this flawed thesis is thrown into the trash heap of history where it belongs.
June 4, 2007 7:25 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 4, 2007 19:25
Would any of the Muslims posting here care to explain this youtube?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFsCZinp_gw
When they begin to shout:
KILL KILL DENMARK
WE WANT DANISH BLOOD
and
UK YOU WILL PAY
7/7 ON ITS WAY
JIHAD IS ON ITS WAY
About halfway through -it sounds like pure HATRED, really chilling.
June 4, 2007 7:25 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 4, 2007 19:25
And wouldn't you think, Frank, that all that is a good reason *not* to listen to the extremists who are spoiling for just those sorts of war?
I won't regale you with tales of what Protestants did in Ireland for counterpoint.
I don't care if you think there's no comparison, or how much you think your fears are all there are to the people you're talking about.
We have to do better. We all... have to do better.
June 4, 2007 7:18 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 4, 2007 19:18
What it all boils down to is that until we all accept fully each others right to believe whatever cockamamie things we wish provided that they cause direct harm to know one there will indeed be warms and rumors of war.
June 4, 2007 7:17 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 4, 2007 19:17
"Since the latter paragraph seems to presuppose that there is a clash of civilizations, whereas the former one seems to suggest that there is not, the reader is left to wonder where exactly Prof. Ahmed's work stands on this important issue."
I think, Pat, you may be expecting a stronger statement than Mr. Patel is actually trying to relate, here: it's a different thing to say that there is no essential and inevitable clash between the West and Muslim culture, and that no clashing happens.
Clearly, some 'clashing' is happening, but it does *not* have to go down like this. Like the extremists on both sides say.
Maybe it *is* in fact, the 'young' people who can see past that picture of inevitable war and conflict.
I dunno if I still count as 'young' anymore, but I will say that someone better.
June 4, 2007 7:09 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 4, 2007 19:09
Att: His Honorable F R A N k COLLINS, et al [I doubt "IT" Praise Eclat-i;
W H A T, A B E U T I F U l l, M I N D . Indeed! Ya! ********** (10 Stars no morte)!
Eeeeeeeee Haaaaaa Monsa Monsamono's et al!
June 4, 2007 6:59 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 4, 2007 18:59
I think after reading the posts I realized many seem to be misunderstanding the intent of the article. This was not an article to hash out the incorrectness of Huffington or the correctness of Akbar. Prof. Patel lectures on Huffington and only used his book as a counter example to Akbar. Suggesting that Akbar provides an alternative to the "clash of civilzations" idea and then endorsing only that we all should read Akbar's book in order to give us a more well rounded experience of the theory. As for those posting examples of instances where Muslims have been intolerant is exactly the idea being driven home. This is not a condemnation of non-Muslims this a wake up call to all. We all need to reform our ways and look to the moderates and not to the extremists in our midst for examples.
June 4, 2007 6:46 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 4, 2007 18:46
Hi. I was a bit confused after reading the post. In paragraph 11, the author writes:
"He suggests that each return to its own first principles – democracy and equal rights for America, knowledge and balance for Islam – implying that, at bottom, these civilizations are not only compatible but can learn a great deal from one another."
But earlier, in paragraph 9, he wrote:
"[The book] affirms the idea that the clash of civilizations is ultimately going to be ended when young people are able to connect and understand one another."
Since the latter paragraph seems to presuppose that there is a clash of civilizations, whereas the former one seems to suggest that there is not, the reader is left to wonder where exactly Prof. Ahmed's work stands on this important issue.
June 4, 2007 6:44 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 4, 2007 18:44
Ideas are the most dangerous of fuels. But to suggest that the conflict between Islamists and the World represents a more fundamental rift seems to ignore a lot of history. History after all is replete with many examples of such self-destructive violence and in every case, such cultures inevitably self-destruct.
There are many people in the World today with deeply held and sometimes conflicted and contradictory beliefs. Those beliefs comprise religious, ethical, political elements, yet the thread of global "civilization" endures as a complex mixture of those beliefs.
The other "civilization", presumably the Islamists, also has people with equally deeply held and equally conflicted beliefs. The one big difference is that the Islamists have developed an elaborate pretext and justification for violence. This violence goes against any and all persons with whom they disagree, even those of their own Faith.
Unfortunately, this kind of violent episode can last many. many years...as did Nazism, Stalinism, Maoism...and result in many unnecessary deaths. The fire of these Islamists' inherently self-destructive and unworkable ideas will fade after their novelty fades...and after many more innocent victims die.
Civilization? Hardly. The irony of the conflict is that the Islamists threat only exists because of the development of our global Civilization. They are part of it, not opposed to it. But ideas are the most dangerous of fuels after all.
June 4, 2007 6:33 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 4, 2007 18:33
"We are ALL the "other."
Aimee, When was the last time you chopped someones head off?
June 4, 2007 6:24 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 4, 2007 18:24
It is so much easier to look at the "other" and say 'They need to change' and so much harder to focus on our own needs for change.
We are ALL the "other."
June 4, 2007 6:13 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on Jun