http://moreaboutmen.com/genre/musical/g908/

http://moreaboutmen.com/genre/musical/g908/

dcweh wopgxzdck byzpqh qkbnimw gdwh symaojdrv jstl

I think that Muslims should stop talking to people so myopic that they can only see the 3000+ people killed during 9/11 (of whom I am related to a few) and sit and wring their hands about American victimization.

I don't see anyone in our mainstream press reporting the Iraqi body count. People forget Haditha like they forgot My Lai because our notion of who we are simply means we CAN'T do that kind fo stuff. Insular American sit with their heads in the sand and don't realize that EVERYONE not just Muslims despise the US for its arrogance and just plain lack of education, lack of historical knowledge. Go to France, go to Italy, go to South America. Truth is, we are barbarians and do exactly what we claim others are doing...note the torture debate, note the mass killings, note the targeting of civilians with our cluster bombs.

In every forum and about every question asked about Muslims and Islam, it seems to bring out the worst bigots, the inquisition, the KKK, those people who simply cannot and will not view Muslims as people....

Muslims are just people like the rest of you. Yes, there are bigots and fundies just like you. And they fail to see others' humanity just like you. But not all Americans are the same, not all white people are the same, just like not all Muslims are the same. So rather than write something here as a way of "acting out" against the Muslim that you fear so much, why don't you go read a book, talk to a real person, and then come back with one, only one iota of intelligence as opposed to simple hatred and racism. Then we can talk.

eric cartman is someone i saw on the television machine. i have one in my home.
and why im quoting him?

isnt it obvious? i do what i want!

Who is eric cartman and why are you quoting him?

ill take it as a compliment that you are paying such minute attention to what i respond, or dont respond to.

i probably didnt respond if they were posted anonymously-
i give little attention to anonymous opinions or posts, often completely skipping them
i may be alot of things, but quiet isnt one of them.

as for commenting on a blog- well-

what? are you the blog police?

to quote eric cartman- i do what i want!

Victoria you write:

"cream also rising in the form of high caliber manners."

Why are you jumping into a post when it is not addressed to you? Better check with Miss Manners -but in case you don't know -its RUDE.

Further if you are so anxious to comment on this blog -check out the postings on Islam and Violence. I've noticed you've made no comments on both the London Mosque videos and the Iran police and woman's Hijab.

You are anxious to say: Islam is a religion of peace, but grow quiet when that peace is extended only to those who cease to think freely.

Peace to you, Victoria.

i think you were misunderstanding- tyranny and vitriol are not equal parts but 2 separate issue- so of course theyre not dealt with in the same way-

how do you "educate" tyranny? no one would suggestsuch a thing, nor did the poster.

we are commanded to speak out against tyranny, wherever it occurs- ifwithin our own ranks- of course it must be spoken out against- if from above in the power structure- there also.

as for vitriol, or the poisonous misinformed ramblings of the bigoted towards islam- borne out of fear and ignorance-

yes, of course the way to combat misinformation is with information-
ignorance with education.

im doing it on these boards all the time, i have never tried to censor anyones opinion or even used the mildest of verbal violence towards them.

i have no comments on the beliefs of others, no vitriol expelled at them, no denigration of their beliefs or persons.

it is not necessary to disparage another to express my own truth.
as you so aptly put, cream rises to the top-the cream also rising in the form of high caliber manners.

while you were making an analogy to card playing, te statement two-fold refers to the double pronged nature of the attacks on islamic doctrine-
from the one side, extremist literalists who misinterpret their religion as an excuse to cover their own political agendas,

on the other hand, extremist literalists (fundamentalist, i.e. bushies and neocons) who misinterpret OUR religion as an excuse to cover their political agendas.

certainly there was no mention of giving up at all.

"Moderate Muslims, like myself, find ourselves waging a two fold battle."

In the game of life, you play the hand you're dealt. It's a little early to fold. A reshuffle is going on as we type and post. Old enemies are revealed and new alliances are made. Truth like cream rises to the top.

"Not only must we speak out against the tyranny of this violent minority, but we must also speak out against the vitriol that is sent our way by those in the West."

Tyranny and Vitriol. Which can be educated and set aside? Please remember nothing is solved by increased censorship and violence. Nothing.

I'll close by answering one of my questions with another question.

Does "real power" correlate with freedom in a man's life, his community and society or control over that man's life, his community and society?

political pundits have been using the term "lame duck" to refer to, in particular, the last 2 years of a president when he is in his second term
since the eisenhower administration-
wikipedia is not a dictinary-

gaby- possibly i didnt notice the islamic eyes-
i dont believe the idea is to polarize one against the other, but is intended to walk a mile in anothers shoes.

From the link provided by anon#2:(May 5, 2007 6:24 PM)

"A lame duck is an elected official who loses political power or is no longer responsive to the electorate as a result of

1. a term limit which keeps him from running for that particular office again,
2. losing an election, or
3. the elimination of the official's office, but who continues to hold office until the end of the official's term."

So definition 1 would fit the assertion that Bush is a "Lame Duck". Plus, the fact that he has to deal with an assertive and hostile legislature, that has absolutely no desire for more armed conflicts really limits his ability to get anything done.

Why do there have to be Islamic eyes, versus other eyes?

It eludes me.

If people would only come to realize that organized religions are only there to control you by your fear of the unknown.

How very sad!

To "to Godfrey"

Boy, once you get on a hobby horse, you don't look around, do you? Did you read anything I said?

Victoria,

You need to get out your dictionary. "Lame duck" refers to a president after another president has been elected, but before he's sworn in.

victoria fyi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lame_duck_(politics)

godfrey- the term 'lame duck in the water- shortened to lame duck, actually describes ANY president in the last 2 years of office if he is in his second term.

it was used to describe clinton, and is not wishful thinking, just an accepted term.

"Many Muslim individuals have fallen under a veil of tyranny, silence, and intimidation in their own communities."

Thank you for your measured response. First let me digress a bit and tell you how I felt at reading it; actual happiness. Not because I think I convinced you or that I think you are starting to see the light or anything, but because you made that distinction between "Muslims" who are extremists and the religion itself. The video link you posted, and your own comment "To step out from under that veil is to step into the "cross hairs", I believe enforces my point. Moderate Muslims, like myself, find ourselves waging a two fold battle. Not only must we speak out against the tyranny of this violent minority, but we must also speak out against the vitriol that is sent our way by those in the West. Not only do we find ourselves in "crosshairs" but also in a "crossfire" (starting to sound like the Chrysler line up here...). I would love to talk about reform and social and cultural change, but I always find myself getting drawn into these pointless exchanges over "Muhammadans" and "Islam is a cult" blah blah blah.

There are two questions that need to be answered by non-Muslims criticizing Islam:

1. Do you believe that there are moderate Muslims ?
2. Why would an attack on Islam, and not on "extremist Muslims" specifically, not also be an attack on moderates who are fighting the same war?

When people toss slurs at Islam, they are also throwing slurs at my (moderate Muslims) faith, my upbringing and my family. The result is that most moderates end up trying to combat the negative perceptions and stereotypes amongst non-Muslims, instead of focusing their entire energies on reform.

The extremists take the slurs as just one more way to brainwash their followers into believing that non-Muslims (and specifically the West) are out to "get Islam". The West needs to get on the side of the moderates and start distinguishing between Islam and extremist Muslims.

After watching the video, I was scrolling through the comments and wanted to engage some of the Muslim posters over issues in the clip, but after reading some of the anti-Islam comments my blood was boiling and I just gave up; lest I be drawn into the vitriol. In the poisonous atmosphere that existed, no reason would have been listened to.

That is the tragedy of the moderates in Islam right now. I believe that is the point Dr. Ahmed was trying to make.

We have seen what happened after 911 (was that enough to "rouse America from its stupor"?) a just war against a hateful enemy (Taliban and AlQaeda) led to an unjust invasion that has resulted in 160000 dead at least. Whats interesting is that both the just and the unjust war are now in danger of being a complete loss with America turning tail and withdrawing. In a scenario like this, Bush could have 4 more years and probably still not do anything. He's having problems getting funding for the existing Iraq fiasco and you think that he is going to "nuke" the Muslim world? Oh and Hillary and Byrd introduced that bill to revoke his war authorization. America is not going to be doing any more rousing for a long time now, and Islam is not going anywhere either, so the best thing is to sit down and talk to resolve the issues.

Of course if dreams of Minutemen cruising towards Muslim population centers will help you "hate better at night" then what can I say? I suppose time will tell. If in the next 20 months Bush actually manages to do something like what you suggest, I'll come back to this forum and admit I was wrong. But I have faith in the goodness of most Americans (and Muslims; American or other) that such a thing will not come to pass. So "sweet hating" till then to you.

I'm pleased to see we both cherish free speech and agree a bigot is not a terrorist.

"This discussion is about Islam and I am open to sharing ideas and thoughts over how to counter such men and their vile interpretations of our wonderful religion."

Many Muslim individuals have fallen under a veil of tyranny, silence, and intimidation in their own communities. To step out from under that veil is to step into the crosshairs. Censorship and violence are powerful tools, but sometimes you must walk to the edge of darkness to gain peace.

Here's a YouTube from Canada:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWPvuAg4HjI

Anonymous:

"You can keep living your fantasy that the U.S is going to turn the Muslim World into a "giant parking lot." "

That wasn't a fantasy. That was a warning not to count on the restraint of Americans. America will lie around in a self-satisfied stupor, but if you arouse her, she doesn't know when to stop. Ask Germany (unconditional surrender). Ask Japan. Ask Russia. (Did you know that, after the Russian Revolution, America invaded Russia and fought on Russian soil for two years? That they had fought clear across the continent to within sight of Moscow when Wilson finally called it off? Russia knows it, you can bet your pants.)

The "idiot in chief" has 20 months left in office. It's wishful thinking to call that "lame duck."

"We live in a society that values free speech. Even though I may not agree, I cherish their right to speak freely."

So now being presented with examples of hatred spouting "American Christians" you are off on a tangent of "cherishing free speech". If you had any intellectual honesty, you would at least drop your charade of "Western/Christian moral superiority" and agree to the capacity of all humans (regardless of race, religion and culture) to degenerate into hate mongers.

And I do cherish freedom of speech, until a line is crossed when harm or use of force on others is advocated and sanctioned. In the case of the people I mentioned and OBL, that line was crossed. In a civilized world, freedom does not equate anarchy nor, IMO, the advocacy of anarchy and hate, but I realize that many people would take issue with that viewpoint and that is fine.

"A bigot is not a terrorist."

And I never claimed that. Now if you would read my words carefully, I suggested that socio-economic factors and political instability have combined to give people like OBL the capacity and opportunity to bring about a physical manifestation of their hate.

Terror also exists when a community fears for justice, equality and safety in the face of profiling and hate speech such as that disseminated by the above mentioned "bigots".

"What gives a man, community, society real power?"

What society are you talking about? How is it structured? What are the socio-economic conditions in said society? What are the local and regional political dynamics? Finally, what "power" are you talking about?

"The answer to what is troubling you will not be found in more censorship and violence."

Ahh... so I am the person talking of censorship and violence, when all along my comments have been directed at people who cannot seem to grasp as simple a concept as "context"; directed at people who choose to use a word that is considered derogatory by a community, knowing full well members of that community are present in the forum; directed at people who spout threats of using nuclear weapons against all Muslims as a consequence of the actions of an extremist few. Yet you seem to think that I am the one looking for "answers" with more "violence" and "censorship". Or do you see the attempts at countering the misinformation, and selective interpretations and quotations from the Quran, by Muslims as "censorship"?

Let me make clear to you what I am looking for; a civil dialog and sharing of ideas between those who seek to understand or analyze Islam and the Islamic world, but when those you wish to have a dialog with show up spouting epithets, then there is no hope for true discourse.

I do not believe any religion is "evil" or "violent". What is evil and violent is mans heart . Are there men who have corrupted Islam and distorted its message to support their own prejudices, intolerance and hate? Yes, just as there are, and have been in history, those who have done the same with Christianity and Hinduism. But this discussion is about Islam and I am open to sharing ideas and thoughts over how to counter such men and their vile interpretations of our wonderful religion.

Anon:

"What they have in common is hate; hate for those who do not subscribe to their point of view."

We live in a society that values free speech. Even though I may not agree, I cherish their right to speak freely.

James Dobson, Ann Coulter, Osama Bin Laden, and Bill O'Reilly

"One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong." I've known this since I was a child.

A bigot is not a terrorist.

"Unfortunately socio-economic factors and political instability have combined to provide those in the Muslim world the power to project their hate much further and hold entire nations hostage."

This is where your thought process comes apart. Please read your words over again slowly and I'll ask you 2 questions and end with a comment..

What gives a man, community, society real power?

What judgment awaits a man whose actions are inspired by hatred?

The answer to what is troubling you will not be found in more censorship and violence.

To Godfrey:

"Only one country has ever dropped a nuclear weapon in anger. Ask Japan how the United States takes to attacks on her soil."

You can keep living your fantasy that the U.S is going to turn the Muslim World into a "giant parking lot." The only person capable of taking such a step (The Idiot in Chief) is as lame duck as can be. He has the American military tied down and a hundred soldiers dying a month because of his lies. There are going to be no more invasions in the foreseeable future and with Pakistan possessing nuclear weapons and the capability to deliver them, and under Saudi debt, you wont even be able to launch an attack on the country that most of the 911 hijackers came from.
So keep blustering and spreading your rabble rousing rubbish. There are more people in the Muslim world and America that would rather engage in dialog, than there are intolerant ignorant rednecks like you.

i think all americans were shocked and offended by the 3000 whose lives were senselessly ended by someone on one end of the earth, hating strangers at the other end- hating them enough to go to elaborate ends to murder them.

we should have aggressively and unceasingly gone after the offenders- osama bin laden and his ilk-

but we didnt, instead we allowed ourselves to be distracted while this administration turned that tragic event into a political opportunity to pick up where papa bush left off- and most silently absorbed the fear-mongering that the media foisted upon us-

was anyone offended when george bush walked hand in hand with prince abdullah of saudi arabia like 2 little schoolgirls 2 years ag?

use your intelligence and dont let yourselves be told how to feel.
as noted by zumzum, the intelligent ones ask questions- the stupid blindly accept what is told to them without examining it for truth or consistency.

divide and conquer isnt a new or even clever method- but it is very effective- and america- through not asking questions loudly enough- let itself be blindly trotted down a merry path to war with those not resonsible for the 911

the emotional response was at the ready- the anger was already in place- all they needed was to find the target to focus that despair on-

muslims arent the problem-

fundamentalist christians thinking they are going to holy war with fundamentalist muslims-

both self-righteously believing god is on their side and both equally violent and aggressive in their beliefs.

reasonable believers from both traditions have joined in their solidarity to protest the injustice of this war which is helping only those at the very top power elite-

while youre busy hating muslims, the new 'other'
your government is busy giving tax breaks to the top 1%, destroying social security- failing the education system- completely ignoring the 1 in 4 american citizens who dont have health care.
even miserably failing those very same soldiers who are in the fields fighting for the rights of the elite to make as much money as fast as they can before someone comes up with an alternative energy source-

deconstruction and criticism are the laziest intellectual responses to any problem.
the truly intelligent will try to craft solutions to those problems.

and the solution isnt allowing yourself to be distracted with hating someone you dont know-
identifying the problem is a start to the solution- and the problem isnt muslims-
it never was muslims, or hindus or jews.

the free floating rancor has anchored itself to the islamic religion

as long as youre all busy feeding into that- youre not busy asking questions that need to be asked.

Anonymous:

Sorry, didn't read the whole thread before responding. Mohammedans are offended by being called Mohammedans? I'm offended by Mohammedans flying airplanes into American buildings. I'm offended my mass murder of innocent American citizens. And I'm really offended by Mohammedan students at American colleges (guests in our country) dancing on the green to celebrate said mass murder. Ask me how much I care if they're offended.

Mo:

"Should I say that the ratio of people being killed by the West is 100 to 1 person killed by Muslims."

Yes, this is a thing al-Islam might want to keep in mind. Here's another:

Only one country has ever dropped a nuclear weapon in anger. Ask Japan how the United States takes to attacks on her soil.

Anonymous:

What's a Mohammedan? A follower of the Prophet Mohammed, of course. I'm surprised you would ask.

An Atheist's Guide to Mohammedanism
http://www.atheists.org/Islam/mohammedanism.html

Muhammed"
http://www.atheists.org/Islam/Mohammed.html

Someone just mentioned 1.9 billion ppl follow this religion. After reading info in above URLs I understand why there is discrimination between 'Smart' ppl and 'Stupid' ppl -- 'Smart' ppl validate their beliefs through questions while 'Stupid' like those 1.9 billion get trapped by stupid books lik ethe Hadith etc.

What a pity!

The above was for "To anonymous".

What they have in common is hate; hate for those who do not subscribe to their point of view. What they have in common is their use of the media to propagate that hate in the guise of "anti-terrorism" or "preserving Christian America's Christian values" or "stopping evil America from destroying the Muslim world". Does not matter whether they ask for the "killing of Americans" or "curing the cancer that is Islam" (this comment I heard on Dobsons radio show) and how about "We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity." (Coulter). Wow!! "killing", "forced conversions" amd invasions!

Perhaps you should stop trying to bend over backwards to prove that people in the West are somehow "too superior" to have bigots in their midst. We are all humans and we are all subject to the same human fallacies. There are hate mongers in every culture and society. Unfortunately socio -economic factors and political instability have combined to provide those in the Muslim world the power to project their hate much further and hold entire nations hostage. At their core however, these people are the same; vile, hateful intolerant beings.

"Ann Coulter, Bill O'Reilly, James Dobson, Bob Dutko (here in "good ol Detroit"), to just name a few of the more "famous" ones.. and do you really need me to point out the bigots on this board.."

Do you really equate Ann Coulter, Bill O'Reilly, James Dobson et al with Osama Bin Laden?

Bin Laden quotes:

"We should fully understand our religion. Fighting is a part of our religion and our Sharia [an Islamic legal code]. Those who love God and his Prophet and this religion cannot deny that. Whoever denies even a minor tenet of our religion commits the gravest sin in Islam."

"Hostility toward America is a religious duty, and we hope to be rewarded for it by God . . . . I am confident that Muslims will be able to end the legend of the so-called superpower that is America."

"The pieces of the bodies of infidels were flying like dust particles. If you would have seen it with your own eyes, you would have been very pleased, and your heart would have been filled with joy."

"We--with God's help--call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans
and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson."

In islam, the only unforgivable sin is 'shirk', which is setting up a god beside ALLAH and worshiping that as a god-
like the first commandment commands people to worship one god, and not have any other gods beside GOD, in islam we have the same imperative, but reinforced and magnified in importance.

Anything can be a distraction from god, such as money, or power, even art or music can consume a persons attentions to the degree that it detracts from or interferes with attentions due to ALLAH.

islam brought a new and fresh approach to god without intercessors or a hiearchal structure that had to be gone through to worship.

everyone in islam has the ability, indeed are exhorted to read the qur'an themsleves, interpret it themselves and approach ALLAH without the burden and interference of a priestly structure.

also- we are instructed to shun 'biddah'.
biddah is innovation, or adding things to our worship and practices, such as infusing local and cultural habits into our religion.

for instance, paul blended the cult of goddess worship in ephesus with young christianity to create a new cultic devotion to mary(blessings upon her), so that even today, 2000 years later, ephesus is a center of marian devotion- that is how strong this merger of the new christian worship and the existing worship of astarte is.
(even the word 'easter' is etymologically based on 'astarte'. that is how concrete th connection is.)

the wisdom of this injunction is that, today- some 1470 years later- i can go to any mosque in the world and will pray in the same way as indonesians, or turks, or saudis, and also the exact same prayer practice of our Prophet(peace and blessings upon him).

this has kept islam a pure, undefiled religion, uncorrupted by the additions and mixing of other traditions.

the sense of men not adding to what god has made a prefect form of worship is that strong.

we do not worship the prophet muhammad(pbuh).
period. we worship the god. end of story

the distinction of islam, and its universal accesible nature to all of mankind, is that it is NOT named after a person. so we are clearly and definitively NOT mahommedans.
we dont even say the name of our prophet(pbuh) or even refer to him with the general term of prophet, without adding peace and blessings of ALLA be upon him. we do this also, as you may have noticed- with other prophets, even the mother of the prophet Jesus(ata).

how could we have alot of people referring to us as mohammadens?

so its a combination of not accepting adulterations and keeping our religion in its pure and intended form-

christians, whose religion is named after christ- and buddhists for example- (just think of a religion) are named after people- christians worship Jesus(ata) we revere him and respect him so much that we will not even utter his name without adding a prayer of blessing after it- but we dont worship Muhammad(pbuh) or any saint or man.
we worship only the one true god.

the term mohammedism is an invention of christians misunderstanding this very seminal and basic aspect of our committment to keep our religion undefiled by additonal traditions and as close as possible to the original.

we have been successful in this precisely because we vociferously reject such appellations and add ons.

we reject others defining us by their own standards and concepts, as we are fully capable and articulate enough to define ourselves.

as in the term n****r (which i will not say or utter this despicable term) the word itslef is a bastardization of another word, imposed ON a people to define them in a perjorative fashion.

mohammedism is also a perversion of and an imposition of a concept in a denigrating sense by those who disliked and feared muslims-

the idea of not falling to the (what we consider mistake) worship of any man (such as the abundance of statues and images of Jesus(ata)
that has infiltrated the christian religion is one muslims will not bear in our worship of only ALLAH

that is why we do not make ANY images of our Rasul(pbuh)- because of human nature to worship images and icons.

if there are no icons there can be no breach of this most important aspect of our religion.

the dutch are well aware of this, and completely cognizant of the reaction it would bring in the muslim community, that is what makes their actions so especially insidious and their intentions so inflammatory.

we are muslims, those who submit to the will of ALLAH.

we are adherents of the religion islam- which means surrender or submission to ALLAH, and also from the syriac aslama , which means peace.

we will strongly and continually choose to define ourselves.
peace

"Oh come on! Now you are equating the word "Mohammedan" with the word ni***r used for African-Americans? Do you really think it is a fair comparison?"

I am responding to the comment "what's in a name". I am not suggesting that "Mohammedan" has even close to the negative connotations of the N-word, just that history and historical events can endow mere "words" a lot of power and emotion, and you cannot deny that "ni**er" has a lot of negative emotion and history attached to it. At the very least "Mohammedan" is an inaccurate invention by people who had no idea of what Islam was, that much has been pointed out. Mutual respect and civility would deem that such a term of description not be used. Also, as I mentioned before, the word has attained a derogatory connotation due to its use, historically, by the colonizing and occupying forces of the West, thereby imbuing it with the power to offend (as does the N-word when used by White people) Muslims when used by non-Muslims.

Oh come on! Now you are equating the word "Mohammedan" with the word ni***r used for African-Americans? Do you really think it is a fair comparison?

"Muslims reject the title because it implies... how insecure is that? What's in the name, dude?"

Personally I do not consider it offensive, but I do consider it completely inaccurate and a remnant of an age when large parts of the Muslim world were colonized and occupied.

Would you also tell African Americans that they should just get over the word "ni**er"? No matter what commonsense tells you about "whats in a name", history and historical events do lend power and emotion to things as innocuous as a word.

"Honestly, it is only semantics..."

How many people go around calling Christians "Biblicans" or "Testamentarians" or something? "Mohammadan" is an invention of Western historians and has nothing to do with Islam. Honestly, if you cannot even show the civility to address a community by their "proper" name and deliberately choose to use a word coined by people outside the community, a word that over time has come to be considered derogatory, then why be surprised when any discussion over Islam regresses to the kind of rabble rousing rubbish on this board.

As far as the people who were offended by the cartoons, and I am not defending the few who rioted, but lets suppose the much, much larger majority of moderates who were just "offended", it is not a case of "worshiping Mohammed", it is a sign of respect for him as God's messenger and Prophet. Some neo-cons would be offended if you criticized Bush, does that mean they worship him?

"An out-dated and extremely offensive word coined by orientalists to describe Muslims. Muslims reject this title since it implies they worship Muhammad, instead of The One God."

Muslims reject the title because it implies... how insecure is that? What's in the name, dude?

Well, if Muslims do not "worship" Mohammed, why the uproar over his cartoons? Why the uproar over depicting him in an allegedly insulting manner? Would that not count as "worship"? Honestly, it is only semantics...and it is about time muslims stop being so damn hypersensitive and paranoid about these trivial things. Maybe that, and that alone, would go a long way in changing the world's perception about the nature of Islam being practised today!

"Mohammedan is someone who follows the religion given by Prophet Mohammed. Another name for Muslims...a synonym, if you will!"

The term Mohammedan implies a worship of Mohammad, which is why it is considered offensive by Muslims and rejected as a description. In Islam Mohammad was nothing but an ordinary human who was a prophet and messenger for God. The term was coined by outsiders who had no understanding of the religion and cast it in the same light as "Christianity" and "Christians".

From www.ucis.pitt.edu/ceris/docs/Glossary.rtf

"An out-dated and extremely offensive word coined by orientalists to describe Muslims. Muslims reject this title since it implies they worship Muhammad, instead of The One God."

The ignorance is astounding, only surpassed by the eagerness to label Islam and Muslims based on choice selections of verses from the Quran and the actions of an extremist few.

Ann Coulter, Bill O'Reilly, James Dobson, Bob Dutko (here in "good ol Detroit"), to just name a few of the more "famous" ones.. and do you really need me to point out the bigots on this board... go through and read the posts.

Lori:
OK, no name calling, no incendiary terms, no accusations of hate. One simple question:

Name one Islamic country in the world where non-muslims, male and female, are equal to Muslims, where they can practice their religion freely, study freely, publish their ideas freely, and walk down the street safely wearing crosses or stars of David or whatever other symbols they wish .

Contrast that with the many thousands of mosques, Islamic schools, islamic papers and websites all over the West, many government supported by tax breaks and other means.

Come on Islamophiles, name one such country.

Posted May 1, 2007 7:22 PM

Lori, asked the question on May 1, 2007 which country has tolerance for other religions besides its own majority Islamic Religion.

I would submit the name(s) of Tunisia (and possibly Morocco)in North Africa as that/those countries. I have lived here in Tunisia (and visited and worked in Morocco) for over thirty years. In this time I have worshipped in mosques, Jewish synagogues, Christian (Catholic and Protestant churches, Greek and Russian orthodoxe churches. I have friends, colleagues, former students and family members from all these major religions right here in Tunisia.

There is a place on earth where tolerance of religions is practiced by a non-sectarian state upheld by its own laws. It's right here in Tunisia. Come and see for yourselves.

"Only goes to show that Osama Bin Laden and his fellow bigots have plenty of company on the other side of the divide."

Fascinating comment. You say "plenty of company" -please name only 2 or 3.

Mohammedan is someone who follows the religion given by Prophet Mohammed. Another name for Muslims...a synonym, if you will! Some people do not like the use of this term to denote muslims though I fail to see why. It is a pretty accurate descrition of the followers of Islam.

Te baines:

"Muslims are extremely conceited if they think we non-Muslims spend all our time worrying about them."

LOL. Right, the Patriot Act, profiling, special registration of Muslim immigrants, oh my gosh.. those were directed at Muslims?!!! The hateful bigotry, prejudice and racism displayed by the majority of posters on this board.. right no one is really paying much attention to Muslims are they? Not that I care for this kind of "attention". Just like the African slaves probably never cared much for the attention of the kind bestowed by the KKK. Quite enlightening, seeing this side of the "noble" and "tolerant" West...
Only goes to show that Osama Bin Laden and his fellow bigots have plenty of company on the other side of the divide.

Secular:

"The people who claim that a statement is taken out of context have the burden to provide the context, just claiming it is taken out of context is not enough."

So what statement would you like clarification on? It is also not alright to go around accusing an entire group of people, incorrectly, of being murderers and liars. Perhaps there would be more discussion and dialog on these forums if people first asked Muslims to clarify the translations they come across that seem hateful instead of poisoning the debate from the get go with comments such as those that have been posted. You cannot have a discussion if you come to the table yelling epithets and demonizing the other side; try civility for a change and see where you get.

"It also begs the question, if as claimed Quran is supposed to be very simple to understand (given Mohamed was only semi-literate) how is it that so many people take these out of context."

So the Quran is supposed to be simple to understand for someone who cannot speak Arabic?
Your statement beggars belief. And even when somone who speaks Arabic reads the Quran, how can you state with a straight face that reading only one sentence out of a paragraph is supposed to somehow not result in an out of context translation. Refer again to "using deadly force against someone" without taking into account the fact that the statement refers only to actions taken in self defense as a last resort. Truly ludicrous, this opinion of yours.

Godfrey:

What on earth is a Mohammedan? Please cast not further light upon your colonial, imperialist ignorance..

Mike:

"Freedom means right to choose or not to choose any faith. It also means right to discard one faith and embrace any other. Koran prescribes death to Muslims to leave Islam.

In short you can come in but cannot leave, Mr. Ahmed, do you agree with this Koranic punishment?"

Well he cannot agree with it since your statement is incorrect as it is NOT a Quranic punishment. And the avalanche of out of context translations of the Quran continues..

With your logic you could also argue that U.S law allows you to kill anyone.. wait its only in self defense as a last resort isn't it..

ps- infidel is a word used by the crusaders to describe muslims in the holy land- it comes from the latin infidelis and is not a word used by muslims for anything-
it never was, and the weatern mix-up of kafir and infidel is just that- a mix up-
kafir means one who has been instructed in islam, and REJECTS it- or (in the case of ms. hirsi) COVERS UP the truth of it and misrepresents it-
it is actually a verb that is also used to describe the actions of a farmer when he COVERS UP or CONCEALS his seed with soil.

and since i was born here in america, as were my great great times 8 grandparents, i have no intention of leaving.

this sounds like the old racist america love it or leave it- i, for one, am certainly not going to GIT OUT

what silliness to freely discriminate in the most xenophobic of terms, and think that represents america.

well, the proponents of anger have had their say-
i posted this elsewhere and liked it so ill repost-

2, i dont know you- i dont like or dislike you- and i certainly am not expending the energy to hate a name posted on a blog-
i dont have any feelings about you -
think what you want, its not my business-
probably you in your experience encounter alot of radical people because you have a radical view-
i dont recognize many of the names here- but ive been pretty vociferous AND articulate in my condemnation of hatred or violence espoused in the name of islam-
if someone wants to hate- they will-
no amount of reason will change that-
its also pretty silly to find examples of haters from any religion as post them as representative-
so i dont do that-
i can post links(as ive done) you wont read them-
i can speak eloquently and articulately and reasonably,but if the tone is anathema to what you want to believe to justify your hatred, your heart will make you try to deconstruct it to prove your own hatred-

so theres no point to arguing-
Islam is overwhelmingly a system that trumps negative behavior before it can be undertaken-

islam is a religion that proposes peace, and ways to live peacefully-

the real issues are never discussed- how it applies in society-
what is the christian or atheist deterrant to violence?
they havent even gotten to the point where they have postulated on these things-

what do you do with a murderer or rapist or thief?
how do you conduct yourself in war?
the geneva convention, while its borrowed a myriad of points from islam, still falls far short of the codes of war in islam- in islama combatant, if they cry peace- is not to be molested in any way- they are to be fed as the soldiers are- treated humanely- even released if they give only their WORD that they will cease hostilities-

there are many comprehensive concepts in islam for the protection of society and its weakest members-
while western philosophy is saying everyone is free to do whatever they want- the freedom of the individual eclipses the good of society in many instances-
there is no recognition of human nature in this concept- if you want something- take it-

how is that superior to the philosophy of taking into consideration how ones selfsih actions will impact their society as a whole?
its all a cleanup mentality- when something happens that is truly heinous to its members, THEN there is a short lived attention given to the problem- and quickly conceived short term solutions t make it appear that it has been rectified-
how about this- our creator is already aware of our weaknesses and abilities to corrupt any good thing- and has given us a guide to deter bad behaviors- and a balance of good for individual and for society at large-

there is no extremism allowed in islam-
a man who spent all his time worshiping in the mosque was asked by Muhammad(peace be upon him)how his family was getting along with him being in the mosque all the time, and was chided for his extreme worship! and told his wife has rights over his time and energies and he must fulfil them-

balance and moderation even in worship

reason is supposed to prevail- one is not exhorted to blindly follow ones angers or passions at all-
those who do this, are not practicing the precepts of islam- which calls for moderation in all things-

man has subjected man (and especially women) to their detriment throughout history-

1400 years before my grandmother could own property muslim women have a right to their own protected property-
1400 years before african americans could even vote or be considered more than 3/5 of a human being- islam demanded that all humans be as equal as the teeth of a comb-
why do you think african american men in prison flocked to islam in the 20th century?

because it gave them license to kill the white man? NO
because it recognized their god-given status as fully worthy members of the human race-

do we see militant islamist coming from the ranks of the nation of islam today?
NO- warith deen, the son of its founder elijah extols a movement away from the extremism of NOI, towards mainstream and egalitarian islam-
a call to TRUE islam that appeals to the sense of rightness in peoples hearts.
certainly there are political and social misfits who try to justify their own wrong actions with their religion- but the core of their ambitions lies with their own disenfranchisement- not with their study of islam and its application-

in islam we have 2 exhortations to peace in our lives- one is as an individual to be forebearing and patient and hold our peace even in the face of aggression-
the other is as a society there is no allowance for aggression towards our neighbors- the pre-emptive strike being a peculiar and non-islamic idea-
only in the defensive mode is one allowed to protect ones home or faMILY, AND THEN WHEN THE AGGRESSOR CEASES- WE MUST IMMEDIATELY CEASE-

THESE ARE THE PRECEPTS OF ISLAM- IF ONE TRANSCENDS THEM- HE OR SHE IS NOT ACTING ISLAMICALLY-
oops= caps-
well, thats enough for now-
as for your contention that i must surely repay your hatred with more hatred, that would be inerrant and unislamic behavior on my part-

i must instead bear with patience any misinformation or slander and counter it with information and gentleness

i am really really not of the same philosophy that evil cannot be recounted with kindness-
as i have quelled many a savage breast with a kind word in my life-
when people are in extreme situations, they enact extreme responses-

suicide is completely and unequivocally against the precepts of islam-
it is a 20th century phenomenon and was actually invented by the irishman collins-
the real question is, what are the infringements upon those who feel compelled to take such desperate actions-
remove the impetus for the actions-
concentrate on the rights of all humans-not just those with heavy pockets-
islam already calls for this to be the path-
hatred of the other is the problem here- not in any way a solution-
it is a self perpetuating cycle that has not had any success in history and a foolish way to conduct oneself
also, such a call to hatred denudes one of the right to criticize anyone else who hates.

so, as a muslim, i have to denounce both the abuse of islam by the proponents of violence-
and the verbal and emotional abuse compounding the problem by reciprocating hatred.
peace

Lori, let is roll!

"Right now the Muslims are reproducing the most, and willing to fight the hardest. What military and economic advantage the West has reaped as the fruits of enlightenmment and democracy is being sold to the highest bidder, regardless of what use they are likely to put it to. Oil wealth permits Islam to buy what they need."

I just watched a CNBC on the money video called the Warren Buffet of Arabia….Alwaleed Bin Talal is a billionaire and the largest single investor in the U.S. and it made me wonder where did he get all the money from….ha-ha…..his money came from the West. While the West is debating and analyzing and hand-wringing Muslims are buying the future off under the feet of the next generation with your own money. People are being killed and beheaded in the West because they dare to take a stand against the Islamic threat. Those graduating college are loaded with debt and are uncertain about their future.

The West is benefiting the morally corrupt lawbreakers and crippling the human potential with social welfare programs. Under the guise of tolerance and the twisted multiculturalism hand-picked Muslims get rewarded for fraud and deception and can claim posh positions in high places and come and tell us what to think.

Bashing Christianity as a degenerate religion but bowing down to unknown Gods is the beginning of the End.

One question people need to start asking themselves is why these Muslims are all so eager to come and live among the infidels in the first place…..why don’t they stay in their country and demand the changes that they want. I know but I am keeping my silence and let some other folks use their brain and think for a second.

i would like to see the raw data for that field survey, is it posted anywhere? can we see a list of questions and answers? were they a b c type or yes or no type? did you keep tract of the demographics of the responders? were the questions asked in the language of the people questioned or did they use an interpreter? could others hear the answers of other members of the pool, or was it secret?

Mr. Akbar Ahmed

Muslims are extremely conceited if they think we non-Muslims spend all our time worrying about them. We give them no more time than we give the criminal operating in the next town. It is true that non-Muslims will cross the street if we see a Muslim coming down the street towards us but we will do the same if we see the criminal coming down the street. It is called self-preservation. Once both have gone past us we get on with our lives.

The reason for the general repulsion Muslims generate is more because of the way Muslims respond to questions about Islam and Muhammad than because of the violence that some Muslims indulge.

An example is the sexual relations Muhammad had with children: Aisha ( 9 years old) and Maria, Rayhana, Juwariya and Saffiya all of whom were between the ages of 15 and 17. Except for Maria Muhammad had the other three widowed and then promptly began to have sex with them. Aisha was six when he married her and 9 when he took her virginity. he was then approaching 60 and had established a pattern of preferring of having sex with children.

Maybe he was a pedophile or maybe he was trying to lift his flagging libido. There were no political reasons for the relationships with Maria, Rayhana, Juwariya and Saffiya of whom he married Juwariya and Saffiya, both Jews, after they became Muslims.

It is time for Muslim to say that regardless of what Muhammad did, sex between adult men and female children is no longer legal and moral and acceptable. That would be a reasonable stand.

Instead Muslims try to explain away the age issue by coming up with convoluted explanations to prove that Aisha was a teenager when Muhammad first had sex with her. Muslims only dig a deeper hole when they do so. And invite even more derision from non-Muslims.

Muslims can also gain some respect by boycotting the hajj to Mecca until Saudi Arabia gives full freedom of religion to non-Muslims including the building of churches and other places of non-Muslim worship anywhere in Saudi Arabia and the right of Muslims to leave Islam anywhere in the world without fear of death for apostasy.

We are not interested in the past, in the Koran or in what Muhammad did.

It is what Muslims do going forward that is going to make or break the case for Muslims.

Recently I spoke to someone about Islam. I wondered how the religion had such a large following if the negative things said about Islam were true, about violence being a part of the Quran etc. I was quite shocked by the answer I got. "What sort of people form the majority of followers? How of them really have read the Quran and know what is written in it? Most live in countries which have a different local culture based on other religions."

This article is interesting. Negative views about Islam are not found only in America or the west. I live in Nigeria, a country roughly split between muslims and non-muslims, and I can assure you that neagative feelings abound here, and for very good reasons. I am 46 years old and every year, for the last 2 decades, I have witnessed increasing intolerance from MUSLIMS! Every single year, hundreds, sometimes thousands, of non-muslim Nigerians lose their lives in the predominantly muslim north of the country. As an example, when a Danish paper published cartoons about the Prophet Mohammed, thousands of non-muslims lost thei lives in Northern Nigeria and tens of churches were destroyed. Pray tell, what possible connection did those innocents have to do with what happened in Denmark. This in a country where probably less than 50,000 people speak or read Danish [out of a population of about 140 million]; where the supposedly offending cartoons had never, and till date, never been published by the Nigerian press; and, where the cartoons, unseen, had been condemned by Christian and other non-muslim opinion in the country! If non-muslims view muslims as intolerant, perhaps its because they are. Curb the intolerance and, oftentimes,outright hatred for all things non-islamic amongst muslim societies and I can assure you that you'll find the world much more friendly to you. Keep up doing what you've been doing............ well, I'm sure you know the saying THEY FIRST MAKE MAD WHOM THE GODS WISH TO DESTROY.

Frank

You have got it right. It is not the religion per se that is the problem, but the fact that others have to pay the price for their faith. Mainstream Islam needs to reform itself (just like the Catholic Church was forced to give up some of its less laudable practices due to pressure) and adopt the UN Charter of Universal Human Rights. A copy of it should be sent to every single Imam in the world. Let them preach any Islam they want as long as they do not violate the UN Charter.

Ahmed wrote in his article:
---According to a field survey in the Muslim world that I conducted along with an excellent team of young Americans, an overwhelming majority cited “negative Western perceptions of Islam” as the number one threat facing the Muslim world.---

That may be the perception but many muslims are speaking with their feet, getting out of Iraq where Sunni kill Shia and al Qaida kills anyone. Even more are fleeing poverty and oppression and coming to Europe and the USA. And if they feel the west is the only society that has this impression they should also look east and see what the Thai are thinking right now, and don't forget the Indians, Phillipinos and the Chinese. Actually, I think a better field study would be to survey the world and find anyone who does not have a negative perception of those who practice Islam.

I think you'll even find it in Islamic societies that are fleeing their own lands to escape the people who proclaim Islam the only true religion. One thing you should note, this is a new perception based on recent actions by some muslims in the name of Islam. The silence of other muslims to these actions is deafening here in the west and around the globe. The silence of muslim nations is what gives me this perception. Who in Islam is standing up and shouting down the terrorists? I see none but I do see many in Islam who "understand" the terrorists. Do you see where the perception comes from? How can anyone "understand" any terrorist and not receive a negative perception.

roy it is not hate to say what is true.
islamics cant get it through their heads that it is not the religious part of islam that is offensive, its the darn hating and then killing part. that is the problem.
if islam were to renounce those parts of their religion that demanded murder and torture and forced conversion, they could just go about their business and no one would care. but they havn't and wont. they feel it is part of the commands of god that they do exactly that - hate, torture and murder and spread islam with violence. its not that some islamics are violent, its that islam is violent.
and while a board like this will not change the mind of islamics - it will let other know the truth.
would it be hate to say the kkk hates and kills blacks and jews and catholics? no, it would be true. would it be hate to say hitler, mao, stalin, engaged in mas murder, or just accurate?
is it hate to say that islam started attacking other religions even before they ever heard of islam and is still at it? no, its just accurate.

Mr. Akbar Ahmed

Is it not time Muslims ask themselves: "What can we do to win the hearts and minds of non-Muslims?"

Non-Muslims can do without Muslims including oil in the lands where Muslims are a majority. Soon ethanol, bio-diesel, soy diesel, solar, wind, geothermal etc will make oil from Muslim countries unneccessary. Muslims have a gretaer neeed forus because they need money for their oil and they need to migrate to the west where they have some modicum of freedom.

What we stopped allowing Muslims to come here and heck with your oil?

Muslims like Christians and Mormons spend more time judging, excluding and condemning others than following the postitve tenents of their faiths. Its human nature. Controlling religions are evil. The hate in the posts here prove it.

We can debate this all day long. In the end, no one will be convinced that the other side has any points to make it seems.

Nature, however, and history are very clear on how things go in the long run. Nature does not take sides, and winners write the history. Survival of the fittest is the bottom line - those who reproduce the most and fight the hardest tend to be around when the dust settles. Advanced cultures have fallen to primitive warlike ones throughout history: China, Egypt, Rome...

The West, in essence, fights through proxies and mercenaries. This is exactly what happened with China, Egypt and Rome as the population grew too decadent and too accustomed to leisure to fight for their lands. The barbarians fought with less science and inferior weapons, but more fervour, more sacrifice, and greater numbers. The barbarians can be kept at bay for a while but in the end the barbarians overwhelm the opponent.

The history of Rome is an exact parallel to what is going to happen. Rome fell due to decadence of the populace, corruption of the leadership, and disease. These are all obviously present in our society now. Looking at a random cross-section of Americans I cannot help but be stunned at how fat we are, how shallow our thinking is, how superficial our goals our…

Right now the Muslims are reproducing the most, and willing to fight the hardest. What military and economic advantage the West has reaped as the fruits of enlightenmment and democracy is being sold to the highest bidder, regardless of what use they are likely to put it to. Oil wealth permits Islam to buy what they need.

While we have these peaceful debates online and teach our kids to wear helmets riding their bikes, and to play in padded playgruonds, they are reproducing at double or triple the rate of other religions, and teaching their kids that self sacrifice to advance the religion is a good thing.

I predict these debates will no longer be occurring in 100 years. So sad for our grandchildren and great grandchildren. But, in the end, what does it matter... moral relativism tells us that there is no one truth, no idea that is truly better than another, so why should we care if in 100 years we live in a theocracy where aged men set the rules of daily life based on how people lived in the dark ages, and music and dancing are banned because they are unholy. These are all just ideas... In the end, we are all just cockroaches running around on an insignificant rock floating in space, marking time until our sun goes supernova.

this is a pretty liberal board on a very liberal news company and even we liberals have a problem with isamic double speak. here is a suggestion for the islamics here - try telling the truth.

ZumZum

When an atheist has put a religion under its lens, then all religions cease to exist. That makes the whole endeavour seem futile and loses its credibility. Mohammad lived and did found a religion which has 1.5 billion followers today. Trying to make a case that Mohammad never existed at all, is too much of a good thing as far as its outcome is concerned. One is tempted to throw the baby out with the bathwater, not the religion but the atheists' take on it.

mo is getting a little frustrated with his inability to confront facts and has now reverted to islam speak.
mo we are talking about how the koran tells islamics to murder and convert by force and you have 1400 years of doing that.
the diffeence is that to murder an islamic need only follow his holy books but a christian has to violate his religion to do what islamics do as a matter of course.
you going to forget to point out all the wars started in the name of islam and in conformity with its dictates?
all societies have war - only islam has them to comply with their holy books.

Peace - Said

"However, many of the Quranic statements mentioned are taken out of context."

I have heard this many a time. The people who claim that a statement is taken out of context have the burden to provide the context, just claiming it is taken out of context is not enough. It also begs the question, if as claimed Quran is supposed to be very simple to understand (given Mohamed was only semi-literate) how is it that so many people take these out of context. Not only that Quran is also claimed to be un-created - has always existed under Allah's throne - then how can one claim that any of its verses are taken out of context? This kind of inane statements are made by the islamic apologists and they try to get away with it. The burden is on them to satisfactorily answer these questions.

What can I say, what a bunch of hypocrites and ignorants. Hypocrites: you (the West) do the violence on a massive scale. Never stopped for the crusaders days through WWI and WWII, to Algiers, Vietnam, Palestine, and Iraq. Should I say that the ratio of people being killed by the West is 100 to 1 person killed by Muslims. Ignorants: Without the Islamic scholars in the 8-15 centuries the West will still be in the dark. The whole resonance is tributed to Averroes (Ibin Rushd), not to mention the science in all its branches and I can gon on for pages and pages. But for now, maybe you all need to open your minds and think before injecting your venoms

i have noticed how islamics dont get through with the bs anymore. they cant lie and expect people to believe it. its good to question it, after all islam has been at war with the non islamic world since 629 ad.
and when are we going to see some real progress with islam and its relationship with the rest of the world. if they keep this forced conversions is our right crap they are not going to last much longer.

Mohanned and others:

On the subject of Israel, I think there's a little disingenuity going on. The major problem Mohammedans have with Israel is that the Prophet promised that the Jews would never control that land again. Now that Jews control the land, the Mohammedans either have to push them into the sea, or admit the Prophet was fallible.

Admit the Prophet was fallible? That would be the simple course. Never expect an Arab to take the simple course. Richard Burton reported that some Arabs would, for a few dollars, take "a hundred sticks" (a hundred blows from a heavy stick) just to prove they could do it.

Which leads to another thought: if they would let you beat the crap out of them for a few dollars, what wouldn't they do for 72 virgins?

moho the issue here is looking at islam not looking at israel. when they do that topic we can argue it. but for now its islam and its self serving statements. and just for a moment - the intafada was not started by israel it was started by islamic terrorists. on may 14, 1948 modern israel came into existence and on the 15th 5 islamic armies attacked her, and that is how its going now. the jews did not start the war, islam did.
and dont tell me that its islamic lands - you stole it. here is the islamic history from the crusades back. The first Crusade began in 1095… 460 years after the first Christian city was overrun by Muslim armies, 457 years after Jerusalem was conquered by Muslim armies, 453 years after Egypt was taken by Muslim armies, 443 after Muslims first plundered Italy, 427 years after Muslim armies first laid siege to the Christian capital of Constantinople, 380 years after Spain was conquered by Muslim armies, 363 years after France was first attacked by Muslim armies, 249 years after Rome itself was sacked by a Muslim army, and only after centuries of church burnings, killings, enslavement and forced conversions of Christians.

It is all about the Koran!!! Clean it up just like the NT has been cleaned up by three of the On Faith panelists (i.e. Professors Crossan, Bork and Fredriksen).

Here is a start:

"30 qualities are connected to the heart"
(the first ten) from the 77 Branches of Faith (Islam) is a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true faith (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings."

"1. Belief in Allah"

No problem but "aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added.

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

No problem but evolution and the Big Bang cannot be ignored and the "akas" for Allah should be included.

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."

A major item to delete. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

Another major item to delete. There are no books written in Heaven just as there are no angels to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.

Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."

Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

"6. To believe that Allah Most High has knowledge of everything from before-hand and that only that which He sanctions or wishes will occur."

This is invalidated by the natural/inherent/God-given gifts/attributes of the human race i.e. Free Will and Future.
As per the theologian Edward Schillebeeckx,
Church: The Human Story of God,
Crossroad, 1993, p.91 (softcover)
We must give up a perverse, unhealthy and inhuman
doctrine of predestination without in so doing making God/Allah the great scapegoat of history.”

"Nothing is determined in advance: in
nature there is chance and determinism; in the world of human
activity there is possibility of free choices. Therefore the
historical future is not known even to God/Allah; otherwise we
and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings. For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women."

"7. To believe that Resurrection will definitely occur."

The spiritual resurrection occurs at each death. There will be no physical resurrection from common sense considerations i.e. Heaven is a spirit state i.e. no bodies to include those of Jesus, Mary, Moses etc.

"8. To believe in the existence of Heaven."

Acceptable but it exists only as a spirit state.

"9. To believe in the existence of Hell."

Maybe, maybe not. Some say if one dies is significant sin, that person’s soul will simply no longer exist since God/Allah does not tolerate imperfection in the Kingdom.

"10. To have love for Allah Most High."

Of course, just like there is love of all creatures, spiritual and living. Again there has to be an all-inclusive statement for Allah, i..e. aka God, Yahweh, Mother Nature, Jehovah

.

All I can say is misery loves company....
Muslims are being oppressed by their totalitarian governments but they blame the West.....but than again they may have a point because the West is lowering its own standards by doing business with dictators who oppress their own people and perpetuating their misery. Muslims need a reality check and the West needs to clean its house too....because garbage belongs in the trash.

"moho you are out there. now its not the fault of a person to put on bomb on and murder innocent women and children, its the victims fault. and you and your ilk wonder why the world hates islam.
its like a child molester blaming parents for not letting him baby sit becasue they think ill of him.
"

Actually it is generally the world that hates the US, if you've ever been out there that is. Also, I'm not saying it's not the fault of the bomber, but I hate it when people act as if these people just wake up and say "hey, let me go out there and just strap a bomb". And your child molester example is horrid and crude and doesn't really exemplify the situation. It is not by any means that simple and it can easily be stated the other way around against Israel.

Why do you choose to ignore that Israel goes into cities and bombs innocent civilians there as well, using US weapons? Why do you also choose to ignore the that for every Israeli that dies, almost 30 palestinians die UNJUSTLY? It is literally becoming genocide and the world just watches ignorantly. It is a war zone and I just find it odd that people think that dying from a bomb strapped on a person is worse than dying from a bomb that comes from a tanker. There is no difference, people are dying on BOTH SIDES. Just like I said in my post. Read it before you post and please don't put words in my mouth.

Anyway, in the end, what is the point of this whole discussion? Everyone is just going to get angry, actually it started that way, and we are all just going to leave with the same exact beliefs that we walked in with. I guess I am also not contributing that much anyway, if people really wanted to learn about what really happens, they can research it through different media than US media or they can simply travel to the area.

well, theres no way to be muslim and be respected i guess-
all of the many times ive posted beautiful and reasonable quranic verses, or stories of the prophet(pbuh)- they are met with stony silence and ignored-
if is speak of peace im ridiculed or accused of being a bad muslim-
the only response i will not give- is one of meeting anger with more anger- or rudeness ro insults with the same-

so just what do you all want?
a scapegoat? a repository for your frustrations?
the way i look at it- thoses who cant publicly be bigoted against the old boogie men- rusiians or communists or african americans or japanese or germans- how far do we have to go back to find discrimination?

so now its socially acceptable, even patriotic to hate muslims-
big deal-
im sure your grandchildren will be hating a heretofore unimagined enemy-

by the way- dont read ms. hirsi- shes an angry opportunist whose built her career on feeding local paranoia about immigration and islam-
she has lost her faith and hasnt in her heart even the ability to replace the faith lost with a new one- shes selling one book, but what do you want to bet she wont sell 2- because shes a poor scholar
read manji- she has passion and knowledge- and is just as if not more critical of islam-

my goodness- if youre going to be outraged, at least be intelligent about WHY you are outraged-

as for the guy who watches al-jazeera all day (what? youve never watched it? becuase you cant get it? o well youre opinion is still valid even though its based on emotional manipulation by fox news)
good work!
im impressed by the abiltiy for critical thinking done in this board

I would see my muslim brothers go to this site and try to refute the research presented:

An Atheist's Guide to Mohammedanism

http://www.atheists.org/Islam/mohammedanism.html

Muhammed"
http://www.atheists.org/Islam/Mohammed.html

Cheers!

"Oh yes, because people just love to go, strap bombs on themselves and die for the fun of it. Get real. How hard do you think a person has to be pushed to go that far?"
moho you are out there. now its not the fault of a person to put on bomb on and murder innocent women and children, its the victims fault. and you and your ilk wonder why the world hates islam.
its like a child molester blaming parents for not letting him baby sit becasue they think ill of him.

Read Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali. She is one of the few people who has managed to escape the mental confines imposed by her Islamic upbringing. Her story is one of freedom, freedom from fear of hell if she disbelieved.

MODERATE MUSLIMS WHERE ARE YOU? You are out there, millions of you, but you are SILENT. You condone extremist violence through your silence. The west's negative impression of Islam is real. It won't change until there is an audible voice advocating PEACE coming from within Islam. Your silence is very telling indeed...

Freedom means right to choose or not to choose any faith. It also means right to discard one faith and embrace any other. Koran prescribes death to Muslims to leave Islam.

In short you can come in but cannot leave, Mr. Ahmed, do you agree with this Koranic punishment?

"Apparently all that Muslim terrorism in the middle east is just high school pranks. It's ISRAEL who REALLY knows how to turn on the terrorism spiggot. Like when they send in civilian suicide bombers to ride busses full of Palestinians and blow them up...oh, er, wait...."

Oh yes, because people just love to go, strap bombs on themselves and die for the fun of it. Get real. How hard do you think a person has to be pushed to go that far? The problem with this debate is that you will never see this except through the eyes of your media. That is a war zone, where Israel has all the military power and Palistinians have self made bombs and have to sacrifice themselves in order to even have a fighting chance. But it is OK, if you feel like closing your eyes and ignore the thousands that were killed simply for the fact that they are muslim, well then be my guest. But until you have actually been to the area and know first hand what is going on on both sides, please do not throw around excuses. As if killing someone from behind a tank is really any different than killing someone with a bomb strapped to yourself. Civilians are dying on BOTH sides, but the difference in numbers are staggering. I haven't even brushed on how devastating it is in Palestine, where people have curfews and whole cities are walled in, with no access to healthcare, food or clean water. But you can keep spouting your crap all you want, from my view, Israel's actions are slow genocide of the Palestinian people.

"Funny you should mention Lebanon; Trying to remember...who's the primary force for Islamic political action in Lebanon these days? Oh yeah - that would be Hezbollah: the Islamic Terrorist Group, brought to you by The Government of Iran. Iran, where We Hang Gays Dead."

Iran where the US gave power to the current regime in hopes of gaining access to the OIL. It isn't hard to see, the US did the same with Saddam and when he decided that the US should not control the OIL, well we all know what happened then. Both wars were started by the the family who has huge interests in OIL. Don't you find that a bit interesting? And lets talk about Lebanon, you can tell me Hezbollah is there all you want, the facts are facts, Lebanon has an incredibly huge Christian population there and while you might consider Hezbollah to be a terrorist group, I find it funny that you ignore the fact that the reason they kidnapped two soldiers was so that they can have leverage to negotiate the release of 50 ARAB CIVILIANS KIDNAPPED BY ISRAEL. I think it is imperative that people realize this. It amazes me how much people can just give in to the media by believing that Israel is completely innocent. Hezbollah, while deemed a terrorist group here, has never heard any complaints from Christians living in Lebanon or immediately out of Lebanon.

The US in particular and the West generally have treated Middle Eastern countries as little more than the owners of oil wells. There is much animosity because Islamists have been lumped together as dangerous and intolerant fundamentalists who lop bombs over the garden fence. Until the US treats these people with dignity and respect it will continue pouring petrol onto the fire and it has nobody to blame but itself.

Peace

I am a Muslim and I accept that we Muslims do need to clean our own home first. The very principles of Islam we preach, we often do not follow. Especially tolerance for people of different faiths and even Muslims with a different view point.

However, many of the Quranic statements mentioned are taken out of context.

If you genuinely want answers please go to a nearby mosque to ask someone who can try to explain it to you. Many of the Quranic verses refer to specific issues and have to be looked at under the context of the historical background.
Or at least read a biography on the life of Muhammad because the Quran was revealed in response to events in his life. I would recommed Martin Ling's.

The way to handle Islamis that non-Muslim countries de-recognize the religion. Particularly USA should make life very hard for Islam inside USA. Islam is what Glen has described - fate of the three Christian missionaries in Turkey.

If diplomatic ties are cut off, but not economic ties, then handling Islam would be possible. Economic ties need not involve immigration by Muslims in USA and vice-versa. So, if USA only has restricted economic ties, meaning doesn't have any major industry/establishment in the Islamic countries, with no US personnel there, then probably the contact between Islam and West be minimized. Also, USA should move over to nuclear energy, because the Islamic countries export oil to USA. That's the major thrust. If USA reduces its oil greed, then practically the economic ties would reduce to a minimum.

If all non-Muslim western countries act similarly, then Islamic countries would see a massive reduction in cash flow. After all, other than oil, what's the economic impact that these Islamic countries have on the world economy ?

Putting these countries on an economic boycott, quarantine would defang the Islamic radicalism. That's a lesson we need to teach. If successful, Akbar Ahmed would then beg for more dollars than preaching Islamic victimhood to the west.

'Forget not to where you have come.' This is on faith, not on hate. In my life I have only studied 4 of the 5 religions. My ignorance is in Islam. The greatest soul and teacher of my life said to me 'all scripture is truth, I don't care what language it is written, all scripture is truth.' So hit the planet earth, feet 1st, born as a Muslim. Yes there is occupation in Gaza, but 4 religions look on the recent decade of death and simply as themselves;
Jesus, what is this?
Buddha, what is this?
Lord Siva, what is this?
Yaweh, what is this?
Muhammed, what is this conflict?

is anyone having problems seeing the comments.

If a misogynist, torturer, and serial killer doesn't like the way civilized society views him, why does he think it's up to society to change its view of him, rather than for him to stop hating women, torturing, and murdering innocents?

Give us a break!

hey muslim - you are using the tried and true islamic way of responding. if you cant defend the words in the koran itself you attack the bible. where here is a flash for you. the old testament is a history book and as such it sets out all of the events that took place but it does not demand hate and killing forever or forced conversions. its been a few thousand years since jews stoned anyone for anything. the koran makes hate and violence part of the daily life of islam. and they follow that command here and now.
and then you revert to assertions about how you are discriminated against and everyone hates you. the basis for that is people telling you exactly what the koran commands about hate and forced conversions.
and then you mention israel - like the koran does not go back to 629 ad and the islamic hate for jews and christians and hindus.

We support a missionary in Indonesia. They recently returned to the USA after spending 5 months in jail. What they did was give a bible to a Muslim seeker. They and the person who got the Bible were arrested and the poor Indonesian is still in jail because he owned a Bible. You see it is against the law to own a Bible in this Muslim nation, Indonesia. At least the fascists in Indonesia did not slit their throats and torture them like those three Christians in Turkey last week. There are NO Islamic nations that practice freedom of religion. It is against their religion. This is the world's big double standard that Muslims refuse to acknowledge. Here is what happened to the three guys in Turkey last week who were in a private room doing Bible study: Details of the torture—

* Tilman was stabbed 156 times, Necati 99 times and Ugur's stabs were too numerous to count. They were disemboweled, and their intestines sliced up in front of their eyes. They were emasculated and watched as those body parts were destroyed. Fingers were chopped off, their noses and mouths and anuses were sliced open. Possibly the worst part was watching as their brothers were likewise tortured. Finally, their throats were sliced from ear to ear, heads practically decapitated.]

What is not stated by Akhbar Ahmed is that Muslim perceptions of the west is formed by th media - both the western media and their own media.

Read the writings and hear statements by some of the deem brightest and best of both the Islamic and western world and one easily see how they form and reinforce perceptions.

It is a fact that some in the media, academia, think tanks and NGOs of both sides wage wars of words conflating religion and politics that is picked up by their respective populace.

And of course, Hollywood also help to form perceptions among Muslims on western mores and values. Just as Hollywood also feature Muslim stereotypes that infuriate Muslims. CNN, BBC and Al Jazeera have their own part too, in bringing to the Islamic and western world, news and images that enrages, shaped and/or reinforce perceptions of the "other" which are already shaped for centuries now.

As for Muslim "moderates", it is a term coined by the west. Moderate how and in what? Moderating prayers from five times to twice a day? Fasting in Ramadan from 30 days to 15 days instead? Turn the other cheek when assaulted? Muslims are supposed to be moderate in their personal behaviour - speech, eating, interaction with other etc.

Another obvious fact - in the so-called "dialogue" between the west and Islam, the language and thinking is also coloured by very different history, heritage and intellectual traditions. So, not surprising and expected that a desired level of understanding would not be attained and would degenerate to mere talking past each other. Always, the differences are highlighted and prioritized, and details argued over till the cows come home, and hearing but not listening if ever, to the perspective of the other.

We never learn from history, but to copiously quote history just to reinforce our perceptions of the "other" level blame too.

So, what else is new in the prickly, testy and defensive/offensive Islam-West interactions?

>I am Muslim and I am American. And while many of you can sit there and scream about "islamic terrorists", I find it kind of funny how you are merely proving the writer's point. Talk about true terrorism, how about Israel killing thousands upon thousands of Palestinians. >

Apparently all that Muslim terrorism in the middle east is just high school pranks. It's ISRAEL who REALLY knows how to turn on the terrorism spiggot. Like when they send in civilian suicide bombers to ride busses full of Palestinians and blow them up...oh, er, wait....

Funny you should mention Lebanon; Trying to remember...who's the primary force for Islamic political action in Lebanon these days? Oh yeah - that would be Hezbollah: the Islamic Terrorist Group, brought to you by The Government of Iran. Iran, where We Hang Gays Dead.

On the bright side, the Indonesian Muslims I know look at their co-religionists in the Arab world and wonder what the hell is wrong with these people. If there's a hope for improving relations with a significant Muslim country, Indonesia is our best bet. Seems that the further you get away from the Saudi center, the more tolerant Islam becomes.

Stop chattering nonsense and bigotry Deb Chatterbox

After 911, the woman who sat in the cubicle next to me said this wasn't the Islam she believed in. She was genuinely ashamed that her religion was being used as an excuse to kill.

She left the company shortly thereafter. While I don't know the complete reason, I do know several loudmouths in the office were saying Muslims should be rounded up and put into camps. They said worse things, in fact.

It's easy to fall into hyperbole, or to paint a broad picture - it simplifies the argument.

That said, I have to say this was an American Muslim. She was brought up to accept other beliefs. It is vital to remember that hundreds of millions of other Muslims are brought up the same way. But it would be an outright lie to pretend that fundamentalist Muslims are tolerant.

Nutcases are nutcases the world over. I say throw all the fundamentalists into camps for brutal reeducation. Let the survivors encourage their families to be tolerant and moderate.

I have yet to see a single post from the so called muslim moderates, which is introspective. It is always one whining post after another. At least bring some Brie with your W(H)INE. The past glory of Islam (ignominious or not) is exactly that, is in the past. The rest of the GODDAMN world does not give a hoot to your whines. All that the rest of the world cares is what are you doing today, whoever you are. Rest of the world treats the Chinese that way, Indians that way, everybody else the same. Muslims should not expect any different from the rest of the world. Let me tell you just because you are sitting on a vast pools of oil does not get you respect. Abundance of natural resource does not gain you any respect - may be some flattery. What you do with the stuff between your EARS is all the rest of the world cares and respects - get this through your heads. If you want respect then just shut up and put your noses to the grind stone and work hard, and may be 200 years from now you may get the respect of the world, if you accomplish something. If that is too much then mind your own business, the 47 islamic countries can sit in your cocoons. I dont understand why you give a rats ass what the rest of the world thinks of you. You, your ruling elite, just make sure you can feed your teeming billions first and foremost, the respect you are craving for will come automatically. Look at India and China of today and compare them to India and China of yester years.

I have a close friend who grew up in Egypt. He is a Christian and recently was in Egypt and detained at the airport for his beliefs and told never to come back again. In Egypt they say you can build a new Christian church but all churches have to be approved by the politicians. Guess how many Christian churches have been approved for lately? How about zero. Egypt is the home of the Muslim Brotherhood probably the most blood thirsty of all the Islamic fundamentalist organizations and the very foundation of Osama's philosophies. A real moderate Muslim would denounce the Muslim Brotherhood which is the equivalent of the KKK. The birth place of Qtub who started the whole fundamentalist movement is none other than Egypt. If there were such a thing as a moderate Muslim, then that Muslim would also denounce Qtub. They would denouce the treatment of Christians in Egypt as second-class citizens. Christians are persecuted big time in Egypt and I know this from personal relationships. There is no freedom of religion in Egypt as we understand it and practice it in the West. There are NO Islamic nations that practice true Freedom of Religion. It is against their religion.

I love it when you take scriptures to prove a point. Lets see what happens to children in the bible who insult a prophet for being bald. Two bears kill 42 of them!

The King James version of the bible tells the story in 2 Kings 2:23 - 2:25

2:23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

2:25 And he went from thence to mount Carmel, and from thence he returned to Samaria.

This thread actually seems to prove the point of the article. It is our "perceptions" of the Muslim world that we get via the media that colors our views of them. Just like the vast majority of American's don't run around blowing up buildings (like the Federal Building) or think that Bears should kill little children, The vast majority of the 300 million Muslims in Indodesia (the largest Muslim country i the world) aren't trying to kill anyone.

The Muslim world is the largest victim of the radicals in their own faith and they are the only ones who can change this. In Iraq it is Muslim on Muslim violence.

I agree with FVAQUER. It is time we truly stop teaching religion, especially if it is taught as an institutional subject. By institutional I mean some Pope/Imam/Rabbi says something and drones of people automatically believe it. Then again, what is the point? Once religion is out of the question it becomes a matter of nationalism, or communism, or (insert anything here that you like)... and the story goes on and on and on.

Truth be told, religious, political beliefs and separation of countries in general are really tools that leaders use for power to persuade. Just look at what voting has turned into in the US. The majority of people vote based on Republican or Democrat. No longer the issues and no longer what really matters, they are like football teams.

Sorry to mis-spel you name, Mr. Ahmed!

Mr. Ahmad,
If you think Muhammad is a role model for all Muslims, would you marry an eight your girl? Or, would you let your 8-year old daughter marry a 50+ years old man. It is about time Muslims stop pretending that Muhammad was infallible and start ignoring the cultist side of his personality. Only then, they would have a chance of becoming a part of human civilization. Until then, most of them are nothing but a bunch of sex-maniac cultists.

have you ever seen the islamics talk about the crusades? have you ever heard islam talking about christians stealing something islamic and islam wantes it back - like the country of israel!
well here is a reality check about the events leading up to the crusades and it would be nice if they taught why the first crusades took place. but here it is
The first Crusade began in 1095… 460 years after the first Christian city was overrun by Muslim armies, 457 years after Jerusalem was conquered by Muslim armies, 453 years after Egypt was taken by Muslim armies, 443 after Muslims first plundered Italy, 427 years after Muslim armies first laid siege to the Christian capital of Constantinople, 380 years after Spain was conquered by Muslim armies, 363 years after France was first attacked by Muslim armies, 249 years after Rome itself was sacked by a Muslim army, and only after centuries of church burnings, killings, enslavement and forced conversions of Christians.

so when do we get the original lands of christians and jews back.
and when moho was alive there was a jewish community in mecca, are they still there?

I am amazed as to how many ignorant people actually write things here. I guess that is what we can expect from people who are just angry.

I am Muslim and I am American. And while many of you can sit there and scream about "islamic terrorists", I find it kind of funny how you are merely proving the writer's point. Talk about true terrorism, how about Israel killing thousands upon thousands of Palestinians. The US likes to turn a blind eye, because Israel is a huge asset to the US in regards to technology, just ask Intel and Duracell. People assume that because they have matching military clothing, they are sanctioned to do what they want while in truth, they are merely an organized crime army. A glorified gang.

I also love reading the morons who assume that Muslims just wake up thirsty for blood. You masterfully demonstrate how ignorant you are of the rest of the world. The first thing I do when I wake up is obviously think about how to kill some infidel. Did I mention that I pay my taxes, have my bachelors degree and am in dental school?

In addition, I would also like to mention Lebanon as a muslim nation that has a huge Christian population. You can also look at Egypt, which is full of churches and I have, in fact, many jewish people there as well. Syria too, to mention a few.

The terrorist problems, while glorified by the media and our leader as religious issues are really political. Plain and simple. Take the US out of Palestine and Iraq, and also stop the US's soon to be expansion into Iran and I guarantee that you will see most of these terrorist attacks disappear.

i've met hundreds of muslims who are decent human beings.Turkey is one of my favorite countries. I wonder why these decent folk fail to denounce the horrors being committed in the name of their religion? I am fearful of visitying many muslim countries-are muslims fearful of visiting america??

The problem is that we live in a world with problems that are greater than the thinking we are using to solve them.

The type of thinking that is common throughout religious people is not grounded in the physical world. It is not grounded in reality. While people can point to some virtues of faith, the down side of thinking without logic or reason makes faith a path to our own extinction.

My suggestion is to stop education children in religion and focus on reason, logic civic responsibility and diplomacy. All of the (real) benefits that faith has to offer can be transferred to a secular society.

islam has a way out but they will not take it. the koran was oral at first and was not written down for a hundred years. and there is a grat example. did moho say he went to paradise on a white horse from the "great" mosque or the "far away" mosque. if its the great mosque its mecca but if its the far away one - that means jerusalem, a word that is never mentioned in the koran but is the basis of their claim in israel.
so if they dump those verses that damend hate and murder and conversion by the sword, that is a start. unfortunately if they do that then you get a hundred million islamics in the streets demanding death for the infidels, which is sort of funny when you consider that to be islamic you already have to belive that.

America has a really negative image in most of the world these days. If an American were to say that the main problem with America now was that it had been saddled, for no apparent reason, with a bad image, and that the bad image of America had nothing whatsoever to do with the actions of America or its foreign policy or the behaviour of individual Americans overseas, very, very few people would buy the argument. When Muslims say that the main problem with Islam is a bad image in the Western press, I don't buy that argument either.

Let us try to look at Islam from three practical standards. Historically, Fundamentally, and pragmatically.

Historically, Islam has only prospered when it has had non Muslim countries and peoples to conquer, subjugate, and tax oppressively. At Islam's greatest extent, when the descendants of the Prophet ruled from the Pyrenees to the Niger and from the Atlantic to the Bay of Bengal, the riches that flowed to wherever the high authority dwelt came from the extra taxes that the non-Muslims in that vast agglomeration paid to stay non Muslim. The ruling classes, be they Arab or Turk busied themselves with getting wealth and living dissolute lives. Those few rulers who made some effort to improve the lives of their fellow Muslims did it by making it possible for yet more Muslims to spend their lives chanting the Koran. What little real contributions Muslim sages made to Architecture, engineering, and even math usually, on close examination, turn out to be the work of non Arab (Mostly Iranian) masters, many of whom were not particularly observant Muslims. For most of its thirteen centuries, Islam has been a largely ectoparasitic drain on its non faithful subjects and neighbors.

Pragmatically, Islam demonstrates its abhorrence for western everything on a daily basis. I have never heard any official spokesman for Islam actually condemn some terrorist outrage in unqualified language. When some religious figure does speak against some atrocity, he (and always he) will always qualify his condemnation by telling the west that WE must understand the Muslim point of view.

Fundamentally, we can get a handle on what Islam is by observing it in its most sacred surroundings. Just as we can begin to understand what the Roman Catholic Church is by looking at the Vatican City State, we can understand Islam by looking at what Islam behaves like at home in Mecca. There women are mere property, requiring the permission of some male owner to do anything at all. They must behave like property, hiding themselves so that only their owners may now their true form. The Royal House of Saud gathers its wealth and lives in its private ways, and all of Islam must bow before it if it wishes to attend the shrines called out for the Hadj. Non Muslims are forbidden, and to retain the purity of the sacred precincts are mostly oppressively tolerated when they go any where else in the Kingdom. Christianity is strongly proscribed through out the Kingdom.

This is the Islam that Islam takes great care to show to the rest of the world. If Islam doesn't want me to have that impression, then Islam must change. I will not lie to myself so that Muslims can feel better about their image in the west.

wow, i never thought i would see it but you people here have a real understanding of islam.
and what do you cann someone who has sexd with a 9 year old, even if they married her at 6. its called being a pedophile. they may not like it but that is what it is. he did not even wait for her to hit double digits. civilized people let children stay children.
what would serve the islamic world and the cause of peace is for islam to dump its violent portions of the koran. but they cannot do that becasue the inspired word of the islamic god must be obeyed. that means taking what you can without war but then reverting to war if you cant do it any ohter way.
the concept of a peaceful world is even different in islam. in the west we call it an absence of war, in islam it means the absence of any religion but islam. its not that we misunderstand islam, its that we now understand it all to well. we are willing to live without war with islam, its islam that is at war with us.

I have read all of the above comments looking for logic, some good points have been made. The Koran very spacificall teaches that all infidels must be converted or killed. For Moslums to deny this fact is to deny the Koran. Questions, if the Sunies and the Sheites are both Moslum why are they killing each other? And if by some very long stretch of the imagination they succeded in conveting everyone, would the killing continue because not everyone belonged to the same sect? From what I am hearing on the news their hatred does not stop with the west. They seen to hate anyone who does not agree with them.

There are no examples of Islamic nations that demonstrate Western values. Their most cherished nation on earth is Iran. For Iran represents the theocracy they desire. That is really scary and something we should all think about before we find loud speakers going up in our neighborhoods. Do you know that in Indonesia they blast out the call to prayer at 3:50 am at about 100 DB? Nobody can sleep. The whole point is that nobody can sleep because sleep deprivation is one way to control. I have been in two countries with the loud speakers blasting out the call to pray. All I can say is that to me it is and was kind of spooky, kind of out demonic, and something I hope we never have to put up with here in USA. The call to pray is oppressive.

The notion that if the Palestine problem were to be solved, all these terrorism by Muslim radicals would also stop is total nonsense. I cannot understand what the Palestine problem has to do with the Bali bombings, the bombings in Mumbai, the terrorism in the name of Kashmir, the bombings in Bangkok, London, Russia, and other parts of the world.

If we are hung up on following a rigid set of rituals but do not see whether our spiritual practices are in fact leading to an expansion of our heart to be ever inclusive, then what good are mere rituals? They should be shunned. Even if God was to come down from the Heavens and say that I should look upon those who do not subscribe to my religion as infidels, I would reject in a heartbeat that God and the scriptures that espouse such a God. My religion does not permit me to accept anything blindly (and thank God I have the freedom to selectively reject any part of my religion that I do not believe. Nobody would dare point a finger at me).

As I said before, even God must make sense. He cannot say "Look here, I am God and I can say whatever I want. You have to believe me because I am telling you that I am God". I would say "Sorry God, you failed the ID test (checking with the grey matter in my brain which You have given me Yourself. You must be an imposter." I would urge Muslims to check with the grey matter in their brain first. A lot of things their Koran says (as all religions sometimes say) does not make sense. But the rest of us are not so hung up on our religion. It is utter nonsense to say that everything in the Koran is the word of God. How can Muslims ever reform Islam if they hold on to this rigid view? Muslims should look at everything with a critical eye and ask themselves--does it make sense? Nothing should be sacroscant. NOTHING!

OK, no name calling, no incendiary terms, no accusations of hate. One simple question:

Name one Islamic country in the world where non-muslims, male and female, are equal to Muslims, where they can practice their religion freely, study freely, publish their ideas freely, and walk down the street safely wearing crosses or stars of David or whatever other symbols they wish .

Contrast that with the many thousands of mosques, Islamic schools, islamic papers and websites all over the West, many government supported by tax breaks and other means.

Come on Islamophiles, name one such country.

This conversations reminds of a recent bit on the SNL news: Muslims are concerned that stereotyping portrays them in a poor light. Also protraying Muslims in a poor light, terrorism.

Many religions have had this problem at one time or another. Remember the Inquisition? The only ones who can fix this negative perception of Islam are Muslims. Give us a reason not to think the worst of you.

After having read about the personal history of Muhummhad and how the Islam religion started with it's split between the shia (sp) and sunni; then go to the Bible and read about Abraham where from among Jews, Islam, and Christianity are fathered, it is very clear that Islam is the only one who has no offer for salvation, forgivness, and freedom. Indeed, so-called Allah worshipers scream like unto madmen for the blood of all infidels and they are we Christians and Jews and anyone else who does not recognize that Muhammed was IT. Even now children, even of their own faith are tortured. Women dare not speak out much less show their hair (Nancy Pelosi was a joke and was tolerated only because they thought it made President Bush appear as an embarrassment in their land.) Converted Arabic peoples who realise the madness and lost forever in eternity of their souls are especially sought after by Islam extremists.
Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. It does not matter how many times the Islamic people deny it, Jesus DID rise from the dead on the third day and now sits at the right hand of God. Triune God does exist: God the Father, God the Son (Jesus), and God the Holy Spirit. Islamic extremists may behave like banshees and terriorize the entire world. But one day every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is the Lord.
When the Muslim world can understand this and allow this without bloodshed and terror, and allow peoples of their own countries to live in their own countries without kowtowing to whatever Muslims want, then maybe there will be a platform from which to speak.

Why are we so quick to leap down the collective throat of Islam? Glen, you referred to our religious freedom -- I'd challenge its existence in our culture any longer. This country has become absolutely intolerant of Muslims and has always been mostly intolerant of atheists like myself.

Don't give me the pious self-pity of Christianity in this country when that religion has done more to exterminate other people and other religious practices (ie, paganism, Native Americans and their beliefs) than Islam could ever dream of! Islam is just more open about it, by writing it in their holy book instead of concealing the daggers Christianity is so happy to stick in people's backs.

Do I believe Islam to be an innocent religion of cotton candy and joy? No. But the knee-jerk reaction of many posters on this forum goes to show that neither is Christianity the religion of peace and love it so proclaims.

I'd suggest we enter into a political discourse to learn about one another before we start throwing around incendiary terms like "pedophile." What purpose does that serve except alienation?

This is ploy by Akbar Ahmed to basically bamboozle the west (read USA). Akbar Ahmed's home country, Pakistan, is a sanctuary of Islamic radicals.

Akbar Ahmed should, instead of playing the Muslim victimhood card, state openly the recent scenario with Lal Masjid in Islamabad. Radical Muslim parties such as the Jammat-i-Islam have called for boycott of anything that is western, and have threatened to take innocent citizens as hostage and have them killed till the Pakistani government concedes to their demands. Guess what ? The govt already has but the radicals still are active in creating a more polarzied Islamic state.

There is much basis for criticizing Islam. Islam always has had bloody borders. Prophet Muhammad had waged war against unbelievers to have them converted. By the end of his prophetic career, Saudi Arabia was fully Islamic, thanks to the process of proselytization by either active persuasion or use of force (violence). The freedom of religion that Akbar Ahmed implies is a total hogwash. Islam and freedom of worship are at each other's odds.

Get real. This Ahmed fellow is enjoying life and is promoting pan-Islamism in USA. What a shame !

I am sick and tired of those who attack the religion of Islam and do not differentiate between Islam and those who practice it. As it is with Moslems some of our so called leaders here in the great USA such as Frank Graham and pitiful Pat Robertson also lie and in the name of freedom of speach call Islam evil, the Prophet a charletan and all moslems savages. It is also Ok for our Predient to attack for no reason what so ever the people of Iraq and kill hundreds of thousands of them in the name of fighting terrorism and now in the name of spreading freedom. And then we ask why do they hate us. All of us are guilty of hate. There is no monopoly on hate. Hate is not unique to Moslems, just watch the CBN and Fox News
channel and learn.

Of course Islam is perceived as a problem across the world. BECAUSE IT IS!

Odd, that in modern history no other culture or ideology has ever managed to live in sustained equality and peace with Islam. Not Zoroastrians, not Jews, not Hindus, not Buddhists, not African tribes, not Christianity...

Actually, I do admire the Muslim ability to ignore reality, refuse to compromise, refuse to admit failure, whine when confronted by greater power, and bully when possessing greater power.

Clearly a superior ideology to anything Greece, Rome, Europe, China, or America have ever come up with.

I await the day that see a rational and broad (not just a few soon-to-be-beheaded apostates) discourse from Muslims that questions whether it is OK to force women to wear potato sacks, whether it is OK to genitally mutilate women, whether it is really all the fault of the US and Israel that Muslims are the most backwards group on earth, and whether it's OK to brainwash children from infancy into hate of the West.

And while we debate these points, busy Muslim beavers are producing 6-8 soon-to-be-brainwashed children per hooded woman to bury the rest of the world in their ignorance.

And the pictures of Muslims all over the world dancing as 9/11 unfolded.... priceless, and never to be forgotten. NEVER. If ever a picture was worth 1000 words, this was an example of that. No amount of excuses and explanations and rationalization will overcome that image. EVER.

>Zionists,AIPAC,neo-cons,orientalists such as Bernard Lewis,warmongers such as Samuel Huntington,professional polimicts such as Daniel Pipes and an ignorant and biased media, all contribute to these negative preceptions of Islam.>

Zionists? Really - the 19th and 20th centuries are over; try and find a more contemporary 'Jew in the woodpile' euphemism if you can.

I did a quick Google check to see how many Mormons went on a rampage last time someone published a book critical of their faith. Surprisingly, the answer was 'none.' Likewise, it stood to reason that the Amish must have gone on a revenge killing to get even for the slaughter perpetrated on their children last year. Disapointing; no revenge murders from these very devout religionists. I asked my Jewish friend what happened when he walked into the Vatican with his yarmulke on his head - again, the answer was 'not a thing' (unlike Saudi Arabia where such an overt display of another religion would be cause for official action.)

If Muslims are upset to find that westerners don't view their religion favorably, or even neutrally, they have no one to blame but themselves. Unlike other major world religions, Islam still has a "blood" component to its beliefs, with some of its most influential clerics being on record as calling for violence and revenge against those they feel are enemies of their faith. Jerry Falwell may be a fundamentalist goof - but he's a far cry from an al Sadr, calling for his flock to kill those he dislikes in the name of his version of God.

The train for Individual Freedom and Social Equality left the station some time back. If those who, for whatever reason, chose not to get on board are jealous or angry at those of us who did, it's THEIR problem, not ours.

It's not just the West that has a negative perception of Islam and Muslims. The negative perception is world-wide in countries where Muslims are not in the majority. Instead of blaming the West, Muslims should do some soul searching. I don't think that the world would have a problem in Muslims celebrating Mohammed as a great hero and islam as a great religion. No problem at all. Just don't support terrorism or other criminal behaviour in their name. Surrender all terrorists without trying to defend them or making terrorists look like heros.

Muslims can't have it both ways--Islam is great, the Prophet is great and terrorists are also great. There is no denying that large segments of the Muslim population have a distorted view of what their religion is all about. Otherwise, why can't they live in peace with others instead of wanting independence through violent means from Israel, to India, Thailand, Philippines, Russia, China, and carrying out nefarious activities in Europe?

It's not just the West that has a negative perception of Islam and Muslims. The negative perception is world-wide in countries where Muslims are not in the majority. Instead of blaming the West, Muslims should do some soul searching. I don't think that the world would have a problem in Muslims celebrating Mohammed as a great hero and islam as a great religion. No problem at all. Just don't support terrorism or other criminal behaviour in their name. Surrender all terrorists without trying to defend them or making terrorists look like heros.

Muslims can't have it both ways--Islam is great, the Prophet is great and terrorists are also great. There is no denying that large segments of the Muslim population have a distorted view of what their religion is all about. Otherwise, why can't they live in peace with others instead of wanting independence through violent means from Israel, to India, Thailand, Philippines, Russia, China, and carrying out nefarious activities in Europe?

History has left the Arab world behind. While we here in the West invent new machines, medicines, and IT technologies; Arabs spend their time living in the past. They are ignorant of all things modern and they haven't contributed one ounce of ingenuity or progress to the world at large.

Deep down, they all know this to be true. No wonder they have such a shameful self-image. It is this poor self image that makes them obsess how we perceive them. While here in the West, we don't really care how they see us. If it weren't for the fact that Arabs have an affinity for blowing themselves up around us, we wouldn't even spend a minute thinking about them.

In addition to the false distortions,appalling negativity and profound ignorance of Islam, some of the posts above clearly confirm the assertions in Mr.Akabr's article, namely that the unjustified “negative Western perceptions of Islam,” as the major cause of hostility and apprehension of the Muslim world towards America and the West.

Zionists,AIPAC,neo-cons,orientalists such as Bernard Lewis,warmongers such as Samuel Huntington,professional polimicts such as Daniel Pipes and an ignorant and biased media, all contribute to these negative preceptions of Islam.

The problem is not the religion itself so much as the rulers of the country, whether that be the government of the religious leaders. These cultures can not evolve without the freedoms America and other countries enjoy

I don’t see Muslims in America as being violent. I think the ratio of violent to non violent Muslims, if you will, is higher in some countries. But even there I would hazard to guess that they are still not in the majority. While freedom helps it does not ensure that everyone is non violent. The KKK has made effective use of the Bible for their purposes.

As far as is it our fault I would say yes and no. Everyone is accountable for their own actions and therefore Islam needs to evolve in some parts of the world. I would like to see more influence from the ‘freer’ Islamic countries on those pockets of Islam that do preach violence. However we can not control that. Any great change typically comes from within. We can only control our own actions an at best demonstrate a better way.

Rightly or wrongly we help create the perception of the west though our actions. I would say many of our laws and actions both foreign and domestic are not in line with our proposed spirituality. For the most part our government and corporations are driven by economics, not spirituality. At some point that just can’t be good for your image.

This struggle is about education, information and understanding. Without understanding how can there be peace?

John griffith,

If you look to at history maybe YOU will see the answer to your question. Muslims just don't wake up and say "yea, I think I will start hating the western world". NOOO not quiet my friend. when your fellow muslims' lands are getting raped(Iraq) humiliated(abu gharib,palestine) and robbed (iraq) of thier resources and god given rights, as is the case in many current conflict areas? You expect red carpets to thrown around everytime somebody from the west visits any of these countries I mentioned?

Muslims are ok as they are. The Americans should know more of their own history, the history of Western Civilisation, then they would understand Muslims very fast.

"Yet I never saw anybody go on Al Jazeera TV disavow the people dancing in the streets celebrating the 911 attacks. I've never once seen an islamic cleric on TV disavowing any of the "Death to America" statements made by the government of Iran."

Great is truth, but still greater, from a practical point of view, is silence about truth. By simply not mentioning certain subjects... totalitarian propagandists have influenced opinion much more effectively than they could have by the most eloquent denunciations.
Aldous Huxley

If you truly believe that the Islamic world does not like the Western world, is not the next most question begging to be asked, "Why?"

It is always our fault. You guys have got to learn to get a life and get over yourselves. Stop blaming us for your jihad, torture, the pedophilia behavior of your prophet, and most of all your lack of any concept of the Jeffersonian value we hold high: freedom of religion. Blame us for the fact that you can build a Mosque in any Western nation but in Iran or Saudi Arabia only a Mosque is allowed. That is a big double standard that you don't want to talk about. I guess the truth is our fault too.

Oh and Malik,

Please stop trying to blame everything on the Isreali/Palestinian issue. You say 900,000 Palestinians were forced to leave Isreal, well that is less than the over 1,000,000 jews that were kicked out of Arab countries in the last 100 years. Additionally, Palestinians are treated like lepers throughout the Middle East and are only used as an excuse for any number of problems. Basically if ARab governments keep their own citizens angry at Israel they won't rebel against the bloated and corrupt governments that rule nearly every single one of the middle eastern countries. When a Palestinian is allowed to become a citizen of Saudi Arabia i'll believe that Arab nations care about what happens to them........That being said, when Saudi Arabia allows a church to be built in Mecca (There are mosques in Jerusalem, and in Rome) I'll liten to a lecture on tolerance from them. Until that time stop complaining that you are being perceived correctly as an intolerant society.

I'm curious, There is a lot of hand wringing in the Muslim world over our negative perception of Islam...... Yet I never saw anybody go on Al Jazeera TV and disavow the people dancing in the streets celebrating the 911 attacks. I've never once seen an islamic cleric on TV disavowing any of the "Death to America" statements made by the government of Iran. What I do see is a lot of simpering and crying and claims of "You hurt my feelings".
Pointing out that they are not behaving well towards us is not an insult, and Westerners perceiving that Muslim countries on the whole do not like us is not unfiar if that is how they speak and behave.

The root cause seems to be the occupation of palestine lands by Israil and America's one sided bias towards Israil. Unless this changes, there can be no hope. The people of Palestine have suffered a lot. How much and how long will this continue? It appears Israil has forgotten the past of its people.

Wow, its really crazy how retarded people can be. The Qu'ran does have some passages in it they may be highly questionable in todays society, as do both the new and old testament of the Bible. We do not judge ourselves soley by these aspects of Christianity, for example the acceptance of slavery, subjugation of females, and things of that nature. It is patently unfair to hold other peoples to these standards. If all muslims were evil then there would be 1 billlion evil people aiming to take down our culture world would be in a complete crisis. In actuality a very small minority of retarded people make the most noise and intimidate moderate voices and the religion gets a bad rap. Imagine if Christianity were soley judged by Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, and the Serbs.

No religion is perfect, just respect that people have the right to have different beliefs. We can't expect the middle east to have the same culture as we do at this point. There are a variety of factors present there that are moderated or even non-existent here that continue to prevent the region to rise to its potential.

It is true that the West has a negative perception of Islam. Perhaps that is because throughout the world Islam is at war with it's neighbors. In Indonesia Islamists bombed Hindus and Westerners in Bali. In the Phillipeans Islamists and Christians have had a running conflict for over a decade. In China, Islamists and Chinese authorities are in conflict. In the Mideast, Islamists and Jews are in conflict as well as with Christians in Lebannon. The riots in Paris do not indicate an ability to coexist with other Europeans. In Sudan, Islamists and Animists and Christians are in conflict. It seems to me that the evidence indicates that Islam is not a peaceful religion. These examples go far beyond "image". Perhaps the faith needs to be questioned and reformed from within but that becomes very difficult in an atmosphere of intolerance and violence.

What in the world are we supposed to do when we see what happens when something is written or drawn depicting their leader. When a group of peole think it is OK to kill someone for their words or their art, it absolutely scares the he-- out of me, and makes me wonder about the entire religion. If it cannot stand the writings or the art, then they need to do some serious self-examination, but that will never happen.

So, to me, that is what scares me about any Muslim!

negative Western perceptions of Islam:

PATTANI, Thailand -- Suspected Islamic insurgents in southern Thailand exploded a bomb at a busy night market and wounded 20 people Monday, police said. Earlier in the day, police found the bodies of two Buddhist villagers, one beheaded, apparently slain by Muslim rebels.

Your holy book tells you to convert or kill the infidels. Why should the West have different perceptions of you?

If what you have said is true, then I suppose the violence will continue. But a question of clarification is in order: it should be obvious that for Westerners the number one role model is not the prophet Mohammed--nor is Mohammed the number one role model for most Easterners. Now with this consideration in mind does it make a difference whether non-Muslims refer to the prophet as a terrorist or pedophile because the real issue is one of taking the prophet as the number one role model? In other words we are being led to believe by your conversation that the violence will abate if the prophet is not referred to as a terrorist, pedophile, etc.--and I hope this is correct. But what if the issue is that Muslims just cannot stand the prophet being relegated to a role model among many others--a multiple role model view--such as exists in a world of advanced democracy, science, separation of church and state, etc.? In other words, contact with non-Muslim civilizations by Muslims will result in at least some criticism of the prophet Mohammed, and most certainly the prophet will be seen as just another of the remarkable figures of history--no more and no less. What if a person wants to take as his role model a person other than the prophet? Is he allowed to do so in the Islamic world? We are certainly allowed to do so in the non-Islamic world. I suppose the question can be clearly stated as what exactly is it Muslims consider criticism of the prophet Mohammed? As a Westerner I feel no criticism at all is allowed--in fact I feel Muslims expect me to take Mohammed as the number one role model or something. If that is the case there most certainly will be continuing violence between the West (and the East as well) and the Islamic world.

"Negative Western perceptions of Islam" is the number one threat facing the Muslim world?!?!?! How about the hundreds of millions of Muslims who see murder as a legitimate policy option? How about the hijacking of Islam to advance radical, extreme political operations? How about the tens of thousands of Imans who preach this drivel?

Instead of seeing the truth of your problem, it is the West's fault for your low self-esteem? It is wrong for anyone in the West to speak the truth about how many Muslim terrorists there are, or to profane your prophet, but there is not reciprocal responsibility to stop Muslims from calling the West every nasty name in the book? That is the central problem with the Muslim world -- they have no intention of living by the code of conduct they would foist off on the rest of the world. You want consideration and respect, but you have no desire to offer it in return. You demand we respect your religion, but you offer no respect for other's religion -- indeed, you go out of your way to disrespect other religions and show a profound intolerance for the practice of other faiths. Please, stop asking me for respect you have not earned nor offer in return. If and when you do, I'll listen to your cries for respect -- until then, you are seen for the hypocrites you are! Talk about "radical rethink" -- look in the mirror Dr. Ahmed! This notion of responsibility for how others view you is a TWO-WAY STREET!

Every time I read scripture about killing infidels, or maybe the one about not hanging out with non-Muslims, I feel negative. How can I help myself?

“negative Western perceptions of Islam” They accurately perceive that we accurately perceive their intentions towards us.