Why not let the women decide? What about if some wome prefer to share one alpha male than being the only one for a loser?

m598k

interesting information, but we should think over it ...
;)

aomxwif weqz qbhjn bjgtxs dobpsecri oqstg jpcdfr

aomxwif weqz qbhjn bjgtxs dobpsecri oqstg jpcdfr

aomxwif weqz qbhjn bjgtxs dobpsecri oqstg jpcdfr

Thanks Thankful. I have no clue what encounter you are referencing. That 'Woman' thread got a lot of people all bent out of shape. Many Bloggernacle bloggers diagnosed me as sociopathic after reading that thread. But what do they know, they're all crazy!!!!

Hi Mayan,

I'm not sure I have any street credit but if I do, no worrys here on an association on this particular point.

My thoughts however extended to Nibly as well and honestly, I wish you'd have refrained from laying into his character too -- at least for this thread as it doth only fuel a charactor debate over Nibly and Beck in my opinion. Sad sad days for all the Nibly's -- if, Beck has it wrong, then there is yet an additional victim? and I can only imagine what it would be like to be accused of being a pedophile? -- Is there anything sicker and less flattering? very, very sad...

In the end, Ms. Beck isn't the only one perpetuating these kinds of doctrinal distortions/speculations as somehow being official LDS theology so really I think it better to focus on addressing them.

Many have already done so quite well so I say on to something else...

And Mayan, I also just want to say that I have come to like you overall as an endearing Pink Elephant in the middle of the Blog. I imagine you and I will continue to disagree most of the time but I can't say I haven't learned a thing or two from you.

This is probably also a good time to finally say I'm sorry for reaming you in our first encounter on Otterson's thread on women in religion some months ago. I did'nt really get the vibe that it phased you much but I've been wanting to apologize anyways though again, I imagine you've forgotten all about it.

Well I guess I'll see you and all around

Thanks everyone for a wonderfully loco but insightful conversation on the Mormons

Thankful(Hershey's Mama)

One day, a 6 year old girl was sitting in a classroom.

The Teacher was explaining evolution to the children.

The Teacher asked a little boy:

TEACHER: Tommy do you see the tree outside?

TOMMY: Yes.

TEACHER: Tommy, do you see the grass outside?

TOMMY: Yes.

TEACHER: Go outside and look up and see if you can see the sky.

TOMMY: Okay. (He returned a few minutes later) Yes, I saw the sky.

TEACHER: Did you see GOD?

TOMMY: No.

TEACHER: That's my point. We can't see GOD because HE isn't there. HE just doesn't exist.

A little girl spoke up wanting to ask the boy some questions. The Teacher agreed.

LITTLE GIRL: Tommy, do you see the tree outside?

TOMMY: Yes.

LITTLE GIRL: Tommy do you see the grass outside?

TOMMY: Yessssss!

LITTLE GIRL: Did you see the sky?

TOMMY: Yessssss!

LITTLE GIRL; Tommy, do you see the Teacher?

TOMMY: Yes

LITTLE GIRL: Do you see her brain?

TOMMY: No

LITTLE GIRL: Then according to what we were taught today, she doesn't have one...........

II CORINTHIANS 5:7 " FOR WE WALK BY FAITH, NOT BY SIGHT "

Mary,
If you'd like to stick to logic, let us begin with your major premise. That is that "Mormonism" is crazy. Interesting premise, but it does require some more ground work. You see, your assertion is simply not self-justifying. Now, to the average Christain, say, the idea that God has called modern prophets is, of course, crazy. Yet to the average Jew, the idea that Christ rose from the dead is also "crazy." You see, crazy is in many instances a point of view. Now, I believe that their is objective truth in the universe which would allow us to firmly deliniate "crazy" ideas from "rational" ones. Yet, for us all to do so together, we must all agree on the same premises. Otherwise we are all left to our subjective interpretations of what is "rational" or "crazy."
Some people obviously do not believe in LDS doctrine. OK. If you don't want to accept Christianity and Mormonism as being the "same," I would respectfully disagree, but that is your prerogative. However, please remember that every religious belief, and in fact every philosophical belief, is crazy to the person who does not share your same basic premise. This is the ultimate problem with logic. It is wonderful as long as you start with the correct premise. When you start with a faulty premise, it may lead you astray.

Christopher Rich:

More relativism, I'm afraid. And basically the same Wicca argument, isn't it?

Mormonism is a strange religion
Christianity is also a strange religion
Therefore Christianity is the same as Mormonism.

But I would dispute that Christianity is very strange. The idea of a resurrection was not strange in ancient times. There were many such myths. And remember Christianity's Hebrew origins--the Jews were probably the most materialist thinkers of ancient times ,Judaism was about land, ethics and progeny, not having much truck with resurrection myths.

However, Christianity differed from more eastern faiths in that Christ was a *Jewish* teacher and rabbi *and* he rose from the dead..This made the fledgling faith very powerful.

The following rebuttal is to all those who argued that Christianity is not different than Mormonism.

Jon wrote:
>There are some seriously whacko people on this string. It is unfortunate they all are pro-LDS/Mitt Romney (Jacob et all need therapy), because there are a few non-crazy LDSers out there.
And concluded:
>Given that it takes a leap of faith/logic to believe in any religion, Mormonism is no different than any other religion.

So many logical errors, Jon; so little time. Let's start with the worst:

To sum: Mormonism is a crazy religion. Chrisitianity is also a religion. It is therefore also crazy because religions are all alike.

Let's reframe: chihuahuas are dogs. Chihuahuas are small. Mastiffs are also dogs. Therefore Mastiffs are also small because all dogs are alike.

In logical form:
C is D,
C is sm,
M is D,
Therefore
M is also sm???

WRONG!

Now I hope that you would probably agree with me that while Christianity and Mormonism are both religions, they are not the same. Mormonism is a fringe religion that doesn't go back further than the 19th century. Christianity has existed two millenia. Mormonism has many falsifiable claims, Christianity has a great philosophical tradition. Whilst these points do not prove that Mormonism is false and Christianity true, they do show that the latter is credible and the former is not.

Atheists have a few good challenges to Christianity, but the Christianity = Mormonism = Wicca = [insert latest cult, say, Scientology] argument is not one! In fact, I'd say it's probably the weakest.

It surprising to me how much credence people will give anything as long as its connected to Mormons. It is especially surprising the credence people give to Ms. Beck's tragic account of abuse. This was supposedly a "suppressed" memory that she discovered as an adult through self-hypnosis. Please. Not one single member of her family, including a sister that she shared a room with as a child where this supposedly occured, agree with her account. People may not want to accept LDS doctrines. That's fine. Mormons do not accept a lot of other people's doctrine. But the Mormons are not some boogey-men waiting to strike. These fears are as old as the church, and were just as irrational then. Most are as ridiculous as the idea that the Jews practiced ritual murder, which was a common slur in the Middle Ages. Apostates by definition normally have some grudge against the church, and thus focus on the beliefs that will gain attention and then twist them even further. From a 21st century point of view, are some LDS beliefs strange? Sure. But no more so than that Christ rose from the dead, or appeared to Paul, or the miracles on the Day of Pentacost.

One can only look at the infallable announcements of the Prophets Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Spencer Kimbell and Ezra Taft Benson to see how this Church has had to take U-turns in the past based on their rantings. How convenient. Like in 1978 when other NCAA schools refused to play BYU in basketball because of the Church's position on Blacks or in the 1800s when another revelation dismissed poligamy so Utah could be a state. I'm looking forward to the day when they have a revelation that trying to cure gays with electroshock is wrong too. We will probably have to wait until Hinkley is gone.

Mayan Elephant:

Your link to the LDS church web site wherein the church says it uses intellect and reason is rich. I note that the date of this declaration quickly followed the PBS documentary, The Mormons, where Dallin Oaks stated that Mormons may not criticize church leaders, even if the criticism is true. This must have sounded appalling even to the LDS church. When is the church going to apologize to Margaret Toscano, the September Six, and other excommunicated Mormon thinkers?

Thankful,

In light of the latest comments, including mine, I wanted to thank you for your first post on this thread. While you and I have forcefully disagreed on many things, I am pleased as hell to agree with you regarding abuse and judgment of victims. Oh, and I am sorry if it hurts your street cred if you and I agree on anything.

There sure are a lot of smart people on this blog who make no sense at all. To hear them all spout off, you'd think they were god himself. Do Native American's decend from Hebrews? If god can create the heaven's and earth in 6 days and rest on the 7th, he can do that too if he wants. Men have been confused about their own origin for 100's of years but all the anthropologists in the world will never convince me that we descended from apes. You can believe what you want about Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, modern day prophets and any other LDS belief. It won't make them any less true. They are what they are. Ms. Beck is not the first Mormon child to have been molested nor will she be the last. Mormons, like all imperfect people, do a lot of terrible, downright unChristlike things. That still doesn't mean the church which is Christ's is not perfect. It's god's kingdom on the earth and Christ is the head and just like Peter was the leader of Christ's church after he was crucified so too is there a man, albeit imperfect, who leads his church today. I'd challenge you find a more Christlike man on the whole earth though. It's OK though that not everyone gets it so there's no need to argue about whether you or I are right. Not everyone accepted the truth in Jesus' day either and they stoned the prophets of old for their beliefs and for preaching the word. Call us crazy or mainstream. Most of us go to work every day to support our families and our one wife and try to live a Christ like life. If someone doesn't want to believe what we believe, I don't criticize them for it or try to prove them wrong. If someone asks a question about the church I try and explain it the best I can and then it's up to them if they want to believe it or not. Some of the posts compare Mormons to Koresh or Jones like groups. I would submit that nearly 13 million world wide is a far cry from those groups. Last time I checked we didn't try to commit mass suicide. Let's face it, there's bible verses that we can throw at non Mormons to make us look right and there's "proof" that non Mormons can throw back but ultimately none of this matters. The only way to find out if something is true is to go to the source of all truth, light and knowledge. If it's true, he'll reveal it to your heart and mind that it's true. What you do with it then is up to you. Embrace it or deny it. Spread it or pervert it. It doesn't change that you know it's true. If you want a different opinion and you go to "learned men" they'll tell you their opinion but that doesn't make it truth unless god confirms it. All questions can be answered in this way which makes it an infallable system. You don't have to trust me or anyone else on this blog who is a believer or non-believer, Mormon or non-Mormon(former or otherwise), victim of child abuse or not. Go to the ultimate source, god! You will know the truth and the truth will set you free!

Former Classmate,

Hey, for all I know, you and Beck were in counseling together and you know every little detail about her, her life, her motivation, her pain and anything else she chose to disclose to you, her former classmate. Though, I suspect you only know her from a brief period in your early life that intersected on a very superficial level with hers. I could be wrong.

That said. Regardless of what you know and how you know it, you are a horses ass of the highest order for using that information, or your guess, to discredit her. The Horses Ass Group Leader, could that be you? Or, perhaps you are the Family Home and Personal Enrichment Counselor (some enrichment you bring tonight.) Regardless of what it is you are, it is fair to say you are way way way out of line in this public criticism of Beck.

Everyone in this country should read your comments and see your tact and know it for what it is - standard Mormon apologetic crap. The greatest irony here is that FARMS, the home of Beck's father, has mastered this strategy. Whether it is George Smith and Signature Books, Grant Palmer, Martha Beck or any number of authors, FARMS consistently hammers their character and assigns hidden agendas to their work and publications. All in an effort to blur the vision of those staring at a naked emperor. Midgley and Peterson are the masters of this style of character assassination that you have assumed. The sad irony is that this style was also used by their mentor, Dr. Nibley, to cream Fawn Brodie and others. Perhaps you are their apt pupil. Being their pupil would be a significantly more tolerable explanation than admitting that your style and comments are standard for an entire community of Mormons.

I refuse to accept that all Mormons are as filthy as your comments above. There are too many good people that have given too much to your church. I refuse to believe that they could all be as ridiculous as you to disparage victims, regardless of their classmatishness. Irony, such irony, that there remains more concern for dead Dr. Nibley than a living person. Unreal.

Again. I have never met Beck. I suspect, unless I write a really really really cool book and get my gray ass on Oprah, I never will. But, I will also not dismiss her work simply because she claims to be a victim.

By the way, what is your qualification in determining whether Dr. Nibley was a Sexual Abuser?

By your standards, I am as evil as Michael Ballam's character in Mormon cinema. I accept that. I have been called worse and I am sure you will go bear your testimony about me at your church. Go for it. In the meantime, if you have something you want to discuss. Bring the facts, anecdotes, evidence and feelings or whatever. And leave the character assassinations to the experts at FARMS. Thanks. Tootles.

Hi Freethinker,

"Do you think you can dig up a DNA expert who is NOT a mormon, as your "expert" John Butler is an active member."

We must address the argument, not the individual who makes the argument, if we are going to get anywhere. Should I dismiss the argument of an non-Mormon just because they aren't Mormon? Surely not!

Only detractors and Mormons are really interested in this whole issue. The study cited by Dr. Butler was done by a Non-Mormon. I think Dr. Butler makes a rational conclusion based on that study.

Certain lines of ancestry among the Icelandic group were not detectable after only 150 years, just think what could happen after 2000, not to mention the compounding effects of numerous bottle-necks.

Thomas Murphy:

Thomas Murphy was working within the "pure descendant paradigm" and I admit, that was falsified. Various internal evidences in the book enable a shift to an assimilation paradigm.

10,000 year old history:

There are innumerable pre-columbian Indian groups, and over 80% of Central American Cities have yet to be examined.

Jews and forgetting:

Large numbers of Jews remembered their religion, but many diaspora Jews have forgotten it as they assimilated into surrounding cultures. The case of the B of M, can be explained by the Genocide at the end of the narrative.

Boats:

About boats, I am not quite familar naval architecture from that time period. I would have to look into it. Good question!

Kind Regards,

JD1

Martha Beck's problem has nothing to do with the Mormon Church or Joseph Smith or The Book of Mormon or anything that Mormons do or don't believe. It has to do with her hatred for her father, period. This is her way of getting back at her dad, despite the fact that he is dead, for the way she was raised. OK, he was a little weird. Sexual abuser, I doubt it. She thinks by attacking the Mormon church she can somehow get back at her father by tearing down the thing he devoted his life to.

And another thing, of all the ethnic groups LEAST likely to "forget" their religion, the Jews would at the top of the list! In addition, the ancient Hebrews were certainly not known as a seafaring people, so how did they happen to wander across the entire mediteranean and atlantic oceans to America, and in what kind of boat might they done this in over 2000 years ago?

You will also need to explain the 10,000 year old documented history of the REAL American Indians prior to the arrival of the Jews, who Joseph Smith claims they descended from.

John D the First:

Do you think you can dig up a DNA expert who is NOT a mormon, as your "expert" John Butler is an active member. I think you would be hard pressed to do so.

And you might be interested in ANOTHER MORMON point of view: (more cut and paste)

From Anthroplogist and Mormon Dr Thomas Murphy:
"He decided to examine whether DNA analysis would confirm that many, perhaps most, Native Americans are descended from ancient Israelites. According to the LA Times, "He analyzed data collected by a multimillion-dollar 'molecular genealogy' project at Brigham Young [University] as well as other, similar projects that track ancestry from people worldwide via DNA in blood samples." Murphy concluded that over the last few thousand years, modern-day Jews and modern-day Native Americans do not share common ancestors. If they did, then genetic markers would be found in Natives identical to those in the descendents of ancient Hebrews. He concluded that: "the Book of Mormon is a piece of 19th century fiction. And that means that we have to acknowledge sometimes Joseph Smith lied." However, he believes that "the book might be fiction, but inspired as well."

I would respectfully ask that you try to find an independent (non LDS) geneticist who agrees with Dr Butler to have any credibility at all.

I went to high school with Martha Nibley Beck. She was a nutjob then and is a nutjob now. Nothing has changed. She has just found a way to capitalize off her mental illness!

Att: Mr. Dodfrey above comment chap.

Your Bloody Rehetoric is Combabulated in Straw!

Gaby:

"God supposedly had discussions with Abraham and Moses, yet neither ever saw God."

I think you need to read your Bible before you try to tell people what's in it:

Gen. 12-7: Then the Lord appeared to Abram....

Gen. 17-1: When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram....

Gen. 18-1: The Lord appeared to Abram by the oaks of Mamre as he sat at the entrance of his tent in the heat of the day. He looked up and saw three men standing near him [one of whom was the Lord].

These quotations are all from the The New Oxford Annotated Bible, NRSV.

OK, I'm not really an expert on the Bible, but even I, the friendly local atheist, knew that the Lord walked up to Abraham along with a couple of angels.

they both have more than one. Does that mean everyone that believes in the bible are crazy? There were many wives and concubines in the Bible.

How many wives did Abraham or Jacob from the bible have?

cosmopolitician,

Don't know why you feel you speak for other members when you say:

"Moreover, many active, temple-going Mormons like me believe that polygamy is a false doctrine introduced erroneously because of Joseph Smith's fallibility."

I tend to think you're one of a very few active members who believe this. If you truly believe in the church & it's doctrines, then you know the Lord would not have ever allowed Joseph Smith to practice or introduce ANY false doctrines. You can't really have a true testimony of Jeseph Smith as the Lord's prophet if you really believe this about him & polygamy.

Mayan

i more often describe myself as a Godless Anti-Mormon.

but those fundie polygamists are NOT members of MY church, whether they are REAL mormons or not.

At least that is what I told myself when I was 16.

The Hinckley led church is too respectable, too dedicated to worldly success, to maintain the renegade stance of the Reformed Mormons.

Henry

The comments about polygamy here, and the official position of the LDS church are interesting, but I'm surprised no one raises the point that the church continues to officially support polygamy.

Yes, you heard me right. While they do NOT allow polygamy to be practiced here on earth, it is still officially supported AND PRACTICED as doctrine.

Just ask the church...

Have they disbanded any of Joseph's or Brigham's (or any other) earlier plural marriages? No. They are still considered valid and these leaders have multiple wives in the hereafter.

Do they still perform VALID temple sealings for additional wives? Yes. If you are a man married in the temple and your wife passes on, you may marry again in the temple and will have two (or possibly even more) wives sealed to you for time and all eternity.

The church believes that marriage here on earth (for time) is FAR LESS IMPORTANT than temple marriage (marriage for time and all eternity). Yet it is only marriage 'for time' (the unimportant one) where plural wives are not allowed. For temple marriages, multiple wives are still allowed (only one at a time here on earth, but you will have them ALL in the afterlife). Yet, the public posturing is that the practice is not supported and they try to distance themselves from it. It's just plan dishonesty. One wonders why they don't just stand up for their beliefs.

Betty, Ralph, William, Henry James: (that was meant as nostalgic reference to your angry mother screaming every kid's name until she finally calls out the right one)

Polygamist/Fundamentalist Mormons ARE real Mormons. Polygamist/Fundamentalist Mormons are NOT Brighamites or members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And they dont go to BYU and live in Hinckley Hall so they are also not Hinckley-Howdy-Dos.

Henry, you do not go to the LDS church, but you are still call yourself a Mormon. If I said you were not Mormon you would push me off the tightrope.

Beck is so damn right. Here we are, lab rats in her little experiment. It is a tightrope and always will be.

I suspect it is much easier for the LDS church and for Otterson to label the non-Brighamite factions as NOT Mormon and to create a perception of uncommon origin, than to try and change the common name of the church from 'The Mormons' to 'The Brighamites.'

A seven year old black kid dies and goes to heaven. He meets his old grandfather there and says: "Hey, granddaddy, things are a lot different on earth than they were when you were alive! They're a lot better for us black folks!

Granddad: "Oh, yeah, sonny? How?

Grandson: "Well, we black folks don't have to sit in the back of the bus anymore."

Granddad: "Oh, praise the Lord! That's wonderful! What else?

Grandson: "And the Mormon church will accept us black folks!"

Granddad: "Now, sonny, you must be lyin'because I could never believe the Mormons would accept us black folk!"

Grandson: "Really, granddady. In fact, not long ago I went down to the Mormon church and told them I wanted to join."

Granddady: "And what did they say?"

Grandson: They said, "sure," and took me down to the river to baptize me. They dunked me once. They dunked me twice. And.....Come to think of it, that's the last thing I remember!"

My girlfriend in high school had a friend who converted to mormonism. She gave me copy of the book of mormon to read. I never laughed so much in my life. Monty Python has nothing on these guys. They teach classes about cults in many universities. mormonism is usually among the topics. A majority of Catholic conservative men on the SCOTUS is scary enough, spare us a cultist for president.

Ralph (are you my cousin ralph?)

I sympathize with your frustration. Growing up as a Mormon I had to recite (a million times it seemed) "No, we Mormons don't practice Polygamy anymore, haven't since 1890."

It sort of felt like saying, "No, we Mormons don't practice Virgin Sacrifices using Chainsaws anymore. We haven't done that for 50 years."

And though I am now an apostate Godless Anti-Mormon, I still have the reflexive defensiveness when shows like True Love or whatever that cable show was called come on.

And I call radio shows and say "No, Mormon beliefs aren't really any wierder than any other religion" even though I am a Godless anti-mormon.

So yes, I understand and share your weariness at the barrage.

That said, the fact that Prophets and Scripture gave God's justification for Polygamy IS embarrassing, IS a fundamental part of the history of the Church (my Great Granpa had 7 wives, unless he had 21 and we didn't know about them).

My objective side says: "Yes, why would non Mormons think that a Church that thinks God prescribed Polygamy is "True"". It IS embarrassing. It IS scandalous, even though all the fundie crazies who are polygamists now are NOT REAL MORMONS.

The New Orleans Saints are not Latter-day Saints either, but they can sure call themselves Saints if they want to, right?

Mormon Fundamentalists are not 'called' that randomly. That is their name. You didnt get to choose the name of the Jackson Five and you do not get to choose the name of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS).

There are others that claim to be Mormon Fundamentalists, and that claim and their chosen identity is not up to you, or Hinckley, to determine.

Though you do not like them using the term Mormon, the LDS faith and these other groups all have something in Common - Joseph Smith Jr. Just like the Jackson Five have something in common, Katherine and Joseph Jackson.

The constant barrage of misinformation is one of the main reasons the Mormon Church has to walk a tight rope concerning it's image.
The Polygamists in Utah and Arizona referred to in your article and on those cable TV shows are no more "Fundamental Mormons" than protestants are Fundamental Catholics.
Most of the members of the Polygamist church were born in that church and have never been Mormon and the few who left the Mormon church to practice polygamy were excommunicated and no longer are affiliated. When you say fundamentalist Mormon you refer to someone who practices the fundamental teachings of the church and as you know polygamy hasn't been part of that for over 100 yrs.

Freethinker,

Thank you for bringing up this issue. Here it goes. I will cut and paste from an article by one John Butler (I know it's kind of lazy, sorry). Because I am sure you value scientific credentials here they are:

He "holds a doctoral degree in chemistry from the University of Virginia and is the author of 80 research articles and book chapters on human DNA including ones on Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA as applied to human identity testing. He has received a number of awards in the field of forensic genetics and is the author of the award-winning textbook Forensic DNA Typing, now in its second edition."

Here is the excerpt:

""could a group of people vanish without a genetic trace as measured by Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA testing yet be the ancestors of someone living today?" It is important to realize that examination of Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA genetic markers permits only a small fraction of an individual's ancestry to be tracked.

Most genetic analysis studies of human history involve comparing a group of samples of living individuals to another group of living individuals without any detailed knowledge of the genealogy of the individuals in the groups being tested. These types of DNA studies make assumptions about the average time for each generation in the past along with a fixed mutation rate whereby genetic variation may occur over time. Similarities in the modern populations examined are then used to claim a shared origin between the two populations with an estimated time for divergence between the populations.

An interesting study reported in the June 2003 issue of the American Journal of Human Genetics leads me to believe that it is possible for Book of Mormon peoples to be ancestors of modern Native Americans and yet not be easily detected using traditional Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA tests. This study, conducted by a group of scientists from a company called deCODE Genetics, used the extensive genealogies of people from Iceland combined with probably the most massive population study ever performed. They traced the matrilineal and patrilineal ancestry of all 131,060 Icelanders born after 1972 back to two cohorts of ancestors, one born between 1848 and 1892 and the other between 1798 and 1742.
Examining the same Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA markers used in other genetic studies, these 131,060 Icelanders revealed highly skewed distributions of descendants to ancestors, with the vast majority of potential ancestors contributing one or no descendants and a minority of ancestors contributing large numbers of descendants.6 In other words, the majority of people living today in Iceland had ancestors living only 150 years ago that could not be detected based on the Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA tests being performed yet the genealogical records exist showing that these people lived and were real ancestors. To the point at hand, if many documented ancestors of 150 years ago cannot be seen with Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA tests from modern Iceland, then the possibility can exist for people that are reported in the Book of Mormon to have migrated to the Americas over 2600 years ago and yet not have detectable genetic signatures today.

They traced the matrilineal and patrilineal ancestry of all 131,060 Icelanders born after 1972 back to two cohorts of ancestors, one born between 1848 and 1892 and the other between 1798 and 1742.
Examining the same Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA markers used in other genetic studies, these 131,060 Icelanders revealed highly skewed distributions of descendants to ancestors, with the vast majority of potential ancestors contributing one or no descendants and a minority of ancestors contributing large numbers of descendants.6 In other words, the majority of people living today in Iceland had ancestors living only 150 years ago that could not be detected based on the Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA tests being performed yet the genealogical records exist showing that these people lived and were real ancestors. To the point at hand, if many documented ancestors of 150 years ago cannot be seen with Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA tests from modern Iceland, then the possibility can exist for people that are reported in the Book of Mormon to have migrated to the Americas over 2600 years ago and yet not have detectable genetic signatures today."

There you have it. So it at least matters one or two iotas and has not been disproven 100% or even close.

Just a personal thought about this. Having read the book of Mormon several times and having a bit of a background in Biological Anthropology I noticed several reasons to expect genetic drift among Book of Mormon peoples. I can think of three in particular.

One when Lehi leaves Jerusalem with his small family and founds a colony, another when the largest portion Nephite/Lamanite population is destroyed in natural disasters and another is a genocide at the end.

With so many bottle necks, we would expect substantial genetic drift which, combined with intermarriage on a large scale, would likely eliminate most semetic genetic markers.

I hope this helps.

Kindest Regards,

JD1

Att: Free Thinker et al;

Interesting, DNA/RNA, Hormones, Proteins, Cytochrome-P450, Carbon, Sodium, Zarconia (this stuff is the precursor to OURS Miracle. a/k/a "The Miracle Shaft" in the Magma triculation that evolved via the "Ocean Womb" at the ECLAT's magma/plasma interface Grid Photon.

In other Words, Eclat, Thee lord God, does have a Cosmic Penis [bear with me] and that is how Momma Earth got Preagnant & evolved NOW, for another Echetological possibilitis of our Miraculous Selves, that in reality, is nothing at all but Nature at ITSELF bestas, except for Biblical Tautology showing a distorted REALITY in the wrong Cosmic anology's of Truth in Space/Time Continum that is Transfinity, your dynamic moving from place to place in Miracle All due to OURS TEMPERATURE [TIME] in OURS Holy Heart beat via the "HOLY" Universal SYATALTIC Cosmic PALANDROME.

We are expanding. But ALL will contract in the Eternal like Holy cosmic heart Beat(s) in G-ds TIME or ECLATs!.

Accordind to Eclatarion belief, all we know NOW will reverse! Ya Ya. Will reverse. So?! praise Eclati in me me ME in and all! Sholom again Worlds.

Oops. I obviously got a few things out of order in my last post.

Freethinkr, I suspect that you would really like and respect John D 1 if you read more of his stuff or knew him a bit better. I like him. And I havent had the spirit of god for ages.

What I think sucks about all this is that one cannot agree with both freethinkr and jd1, and still comfortably share the same benches on Sunday. I just dont get why, if someone thinks that lamanites are cursed with a dark skin thing is silly, they cant still participate in the community comfortably and fully. That is what makes the damn thing cultish. It aint the underwear and the International House of Handshakes that cultify the joint, it is the insistance on "knowing" the "unknowable" and taking directions from a SuperHeroProphet.

From John D:
"The origins of Native Americans are another case. Some Mormons think that American Indians are pure descendants of Hebrews and some believe that a small group of Hebrews intermixed with Asiatic peoples anciently. There is not definite doctrinal statement on this either."

I doesn't matter one iota what Mormons think about this. The DNA evidence shows that there is no connection whatsoever between American Indian and "Hebrew" DNA. Not even a little bit. Both stances you outline above are not only absurd, but have been proven to be 100% false.

This fact DISPROVES MORMON DOCTRINE. At least on this topic. Now about those magic glasses...

Cookie said: "-No paid ministry 1 Pet 5:2 Isa 45:13"

Well Cookie. If that is your standard, you better brush up on the apostacy scriptures because that has never ever been the case in the Mormon Church. The church sustained Smith, Brigham was a millionaire and every apostle and prophet since has been living off of the widow's mite. (Did you reference that story?)

If they had had private jets in Jesus day, do you think the Pharisees would have used them to show their wealth and importance? Would the Pharisees have arranged for their Prophet to fly around in the private jets, live in huge condos and draw a salary? And more, would the Pharisees have sat on Board of companies owned by the Church of Jesus Christ of Original-day Saints?

I am well aware of Nibley. Read closely, I specifically mention nibley in a separate sentence from the apostles and prophets. Haste is bliss. I refer to Nibley because he was very much the core of FARMS. If that wasnt clear, crucify me. But, I never said Nibley was an apostle. In fact, I do consider his role in the Book of Abraham fiasco somewhat tragic. No doubt Nibley had some skills, but what a waste of time and talent to have done so much with that BOA fraud.

No paid Ministry!?! That is hysterical. Who believes that? It is an absolute lie, urban legend, whatever you want to call it. And now, according to Cookie, the general authority salaries are evidence of yet another Apostacy. Wooo Hooo.

BTW, I think they should pay MORE of the Mormon Ministry, not less or none. Pay them and pay them well and they will attract the best people.

Cookie said: We do not discount anything our church leaders say (ie. General Conference etc...) but it looks like you took a statement and made a whole new assessment on your own.

I linked to the original comment from the Church. If you disagree with it, fine. There will never be collective agreemeent on the application of that statement. But, do not accuse another of misinterpreting it by not reading *more* into it than is said. Standard Works, Proclamations and Official Declarations. Everything else is just opinions. I didnt make it up. If you find something in that press release that mentions General Conference, show it.

There are some seriously whacko people on this string. It is unfortunate they all are pro-LDS/Mitt Romney (Jacob et all need therapy), because there are a few non-crazy LDSers out there.

Given that it takes a leap of faith/logic to believe in any religion, Mormonism is no different than any other religion.

The reason, however, that Mormons are so insular is that their beliefs require a momentous logical leap. The only way to control bumping into the realities presented by everyday life that challenge these Mormon beliefs, is to control Mormon society very tightly.

While I have met very nice Mormons, I have a hard time respecting them because it seems like they are living a lie by not considering honest questions about their faith.

Just a comment to the LDS from a former temple-going, returned missioanry: There is joy and hope and yes, even GOD, outside your faith. More than you will ever know within it.

Jesus leads his church himself. He is fully capable. He can and does speak for himself. He doesn't need Pat Robertson, the Pope, President Hinkley or anyone else to help him. Anybody who claims otherwise is a liar and not to be trusted.

Christ's church is not a denomination, not the LDS one, and not any other. These attempts by men to "help" God by establishing "orthodoxy" or "truth" have always hurt, rather than helped God's work.

We really need to know and do only two things: Love God and love others. The rest is man made.

Hello World.

This has all been interesting to say the least.
Martha Beck, no doubt, is struggling with some issues. Whenever accusations are thrown out, it is only fair to bring up the lifestyle
of the accuser to assess their true character.

Hugh Nibley, by the way, was neither prophet nor apostle and anyone who knows anything about the LDS church, knows that 'regular' members do not make/give doctrine for the church.
That's a no-brainer. The LDS church statement mentioned above is a correct one. Get your facts straight! We do not discount anything our church leaders say (ie. General Conference etc...) but it looks like you took a statement and made a whole new assessment on your own. Ignorance will never get you anywhere. (Ignorance is bliss?)
Yes, we do have members who are committed and passionate about our faith.

I think readers should know that 'mormon women' have minds of their own and are not a bunch of mindless subservient chain-bound females in bondage. There are millions of our husbands who will attest to that fact - just like in any household in America. Let's get real here.
Yes, mormon women can and do get involved in civic issues and we stand up for correct morals and values.

FARMS and FAIR are excellent sources for LDS scholarship. There is plenty of enlightening material to read, but the material may be difficult to understand for those who prefer reading the same-old worn out anti-mormon babble. Sorry if LDS values make you feel uncomfortable.

The only way to receive spiritual knowledge is through living a 'moral' life and receiving a witness of spiritual truths through the power of the Holy Ghost. There are many learned men and women and the world who can never seem to find God or any religious truth because they are looking in all the wrong places. It's really quite simple but you must get down on your knees. And, of course, listen to those who make the claim to be prophets and apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ TODAY! Though you would have to be accountable for your actions - and works don't matter, right?

Was polygamy in the Old Testament? Oh, I guess Joseph Smith's claim of restoring all truth hit that one on the mark too. The LDS faith does not state the we will have to practice polygamy in the future/next life. We have always believed in
'free agency'.

Just a few points of the true church - practiced in Christ's time: (There are dozens of more references than what I will put here.)

-baptism for the dead 1 Cor. 15:29
-baptism by immersion Matt 3:13-17
-organized by Christ Eph. 4:11-14 Isa 43:6,7
-church must bear the name of Christ Eph 5:23
-have a foundation of apostles and prophets Eph 2:19-20
-same organization as Christ's church Eph 4:11-14
-Claim divine authority Eph 5:4-10
Matt: 21:23-27
-No paid ministry 1 Pet 5:2 Isa 45:13
-bestow the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands
Acts 8:14-17 (no other church in all the world does this or claims to have revelation)
-practice divine healing Mark 3:13-17
-God the Father and Jesus Christ are separate and distinct individuals John 20:17, John 17:11
Acts 7: 55,56
-God and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone
Luke 24:36-39, John 14:7-9, Acts 1:9-11
-Officers called of God Heb. 5:4, Ex 28:1, 40:13-16
-claim revelation from God Amos 3:7
-missionary church Matt. 28:19,20
-restored church Acts 3:19-21
-by their fruits shall ye know them Matt 7:20

Yes, Joseph Smith was a prophet, seer and revelator. He translated the Book of Mormon (How many people in the U.S. have even opened this book? Yes, you will find truth and you will also find out that there is nothing bad in that book, unless you find the Lord, Jesus Christ to be offensive. So, beware - what you do learn may cause you to ....gulp.....become enlightened.)

Need I remind 'religious' folk that there are many scriptures in the New Testament which point to an apostacy from the truth. No history book has ever mentioned that Constantine was a prophet!
He wasn't! But, the Nicene council convened and
uninspired men made up 'the nature of God' that all other christians believe today. A new 'trinity' doctrine that 1st century christians did not subscribe to. Was Jesus a ventriloquist? Where is his resurrected body? Does the wafer really become Christ's body when you swallow it? The 500 witnesses who testified of his resurrection and ascension to heaven. Their witness doesn't count today?

How could anyone think that mormons have a problem here? "That they may be one as we are one, that they may be one with us." Who us? Are we all going to die and become a blob of air floating in space somewhere as a part of God and Jesus Christ? The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only church that believes in the same 'nature' of God that 1st Century Christians believed in. And we're wrong?
Please, someone, anyone, let me understand where mormons have got this wrong. Joseph Smith brought the true nature of God back into the world! So, yes, he was a true prophet.

APOSTACY

2 Thes. 2:1-4 There shall come a falling away
Acts 20:29-30 After departing wolves shall enter
2 Tim 4:1-4 Teachers having itching ears
1 Tim 4:1-3 Forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain
Matt 24:23-24 False Christ's, false prophets
Amos 8:11-12 Famine for hearing the Lord's word
1 Cor. 1:10-13 I beseech you to speak the same thing
Gal 1:6-8 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from Christ
2nd Nephi 28:3-4 Churches built up, not unto the Lord

There's plenty where this came from.......

America loves it vices. Alcohol, tobacco, drugs (legal and illegal) and porn. Just taking into account the legal vices, they account for what, a couple hundred billion to the U.S. economoy each year?

Mormons do not smoke, drink, watch even R-rated movies, are not allowed "pleasure themselves" and correct me if I'm wrong, are not supposed to engage in oral stimulation. There is no way that will ever be mainstream. Americans want Miller Brewing, Jim Beam, and the Spice Channel.

It's pretty much agreed that the South is the most religious section of the U.S. However, there are probably more strip joints in the South than anywhere. What's the joke "How do you know if someone is a Southern Baptist? He's sitting next to you at the strip joint".

I think that's the big difference between "mainstream" religions and Mormonism. The acceptance and revelry in the earthly pleasures. Just my opinion.

Yes I know about this lady Martha Beck and I have seen her book. She is a real mental case that probably should still be seeking treatment. She should be ashamed to damage the reputation of her own father with such a ridiculous claim that he molested her when she was five years old while he was supposedly wearing some half gator, half lion costume. You notice that she puts in that abuse claim as the last paragraph. This is her only way to sell her books and articles, to inject outlandish claims and allegations. It is truly shameful.

Hewitt,

From what I can gather you are asking for an official source on LDS doctrine as opposed to some sort of investigative literature on Ms Beck's abuse claims -- yes?

www.mormon.org

does a nice job of explaining our basic beliefs

http://scriptures.lds.org/

Contains our complete official cannon of scriptures

www.lds.org

Among other things, one can peruse the addresses of the current Prophet and qourum of the 12 apostles

newsroom.lds.org

Does a nice job of explaining our beliefs too as well as addressing LDS stances on current public issues

Happy Reading to any and all,

Thankful

CANDID people are Good folk and make great Eclati-On's.

G-d Bless America Ya!

Att: "Warm Heart", EMILY, Elephant, DTS, Hrenry Jones, John D. "Rockfellar?", Joy, Dave, THANKFULL, all HUMATE(s) that are Brother(s) & Sister(s) & alien smart creatures too, Ya Ya Mons.

Hello Hello Hello Cyber World & Beyond!

"Space-Ship Earth [Houston] to planet "KOLOB"?,

"This is Houston planet Kolob Do you copy?" "Planet Kolob do you read Mr. G-d Kolob, from kingdom planet Kolob do you Ten four"?"

Hear Yhea Hear Thea, Hark me Lady's and Gent's on Planet "TELLUS", Sister Luna & on Brother Mars, We are sorry to inform you that the "Mormon on Kolob" is no longer in contact with US Earthlings. From info and from our spectral Line Graph data that the Planet Kolob is no more and that Recently it under went a SUPERNOVOA implosion and is now a NEW SONG coming from an Old Vibration of IT's own Music Column.

Ya Ya. : + (' This is a sad day indeed.

Praise the NON-JEALOUS and thus O.U.R.s FEARLESS Holy No Mon G-d Eclati in me my Me Me in Me and in ALL!.
Bitter Vote for a Mormon then to votefor a Moron.

V.O.T.E. "GABY" for Vice President Ya Ya Ya Ya Eeeeeeeee Haaaaaaaa huggy and a kisses to ALL da hnappy headed Broe's and Hoe's?

SOURCE-ONE is G-d the Creator, destroyer & Recreator. The Sun System of Kolob has gone from a Caterpillar To Butterfly event as prophecied by "Shiloh" The Light Bringer in Heuristic Humate Form!

Life is so Beautiful with Eclati-on's and working woth Mitt Romney et al!

Yes. VOTE: Peace_Love_Rock-n-Roll Mitt Romney! And Gay ! Yhea! ECLAT PARTY will swave the Day!

P.S. I had to pick me son 'Alex" (12) up from school. And I'm really going to campaign for Mitt. Alex loves to campaign with me. Heck That is one of my professions. Acsually I'm a fund raiser. But I am crossing over the other side of the TIGRES RIVER if you know what an EBERU is and does best.

P.s. GabY: Mormon Book is Quasi Polotic & Government Friendly. But IT will become ECLATARIAN after Romney holds two terms.

This is OURS Prophecy for AMERICA. the Richest, Smartest, biggest heart, and Most G-d loving in the Universe not just on Spave-Ship Earth, Sis moon & Bro Mars bars et al!

Besides U.S. Dollars OURS LOVE maketh the Himate & God worlds go around as predicted!

: + )/ Ya Ya Monsa Mono's. S H O L O M!

Do I find the Mormons peculiar. You bet! But I find all Christians rather strange and deranged. It is a violent and disturbing form of sado-masochism.

What Martha calls "Gospel meat", is actually Gospel murkiness.

For example, we find in the Cannon of scripture that Spencer W. Kimball had a revelation that the time had come to overturn the racist policy of banning blacks from the Priesthood. What of before that time? Many Mormons think God had one reason or another (known to Him only) for not wanting the Priesthood to be extended to all races. Some think that God wanted to give Preisthood to everyone but, but white American Mormons were too hard headed to except such a revelation. There is no definite doctrine on this matter, so it is left for popular Mormon opinion.

The same goes for Plural Marriage. Nobody has the foggiest idea whether God will bring this back or not. It is largely left to speculation. Some Mormons think it will come back, some don’t. But there is no LDS teaching on the matter.

The origins of Native Americans are another case. Some Mormons think that American Indians are pure descendants of Hebrews and some believe that a small group of Hebrews intermixed with Asiatic peoples anciently. There is not definite doctrinal statement on this either.

“The concept of God as Caucasian man who lives near the planet Kolob.”

The source for Kolob is found in the Book of Abraham :

“And I saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it; And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me” (Abraham 3:3-2).

We later learn in this chapter that Kolob typifies Christ. Some Mormons believe it is also literal, some only think it is symbolic. Once again, murkiness.

As for God’s ethnicity, most Mormons don’t think of God as having an ethnicity. We believe we were created in God’s image and that all people are literally His children. That being said, God is a glorious being beyond comprehension. We may have a special relationship to Him, but he doesn’t fall into any of our mundane social and cultural categories for defining identity. By claiming that He does, Martha Beck presents a caricature of the Mormon concept of God.

So what Martha Beck presents as “Gospel Meat” are really ill-defined concepts within Mormonism or popular Mormon folklore. It would make no sense for Mormons to include non-doctrinal folklore and/or speculations in the message they present to the world.

Martha's Substance

In her pretty mild column, Ms. Beck makes one fundamental point:
the need to balance
Uniqueness/Strangeness
with
Public Acceptability.

An interesting and substantive point, whether one believes LDS doctrine or not.

The Black Priesthood Ban made the Church marginally acceptable to a large part of the public (especially in Brazil where they wanted converts).

God conveniently revealed in 1978 that the Church could remove that thorn from its paw and admit Blacks to the Priesthoodl.

As they did in 1890 when God said No More Polygamy.

A fascinating sociological case.

Holy Hell. we have a fair link on here? what is next, FARMS? Oh for the irony, I cannot wait for someone to use a FARMS link to discredit Nibley's daughter. Though I dont know Beck, I gotta think that will crack her up just a bit as well.

This is going to be good. unfortunately, FAIR and FARMS were just replaced by everyone in the church. They previously had priveledged claim to the apologist excuse - "He said that as a Man not as a Prophet." As of last friday, everyone can say that. The church just reduced all of nibley's work to opinions. And, they reduced everything the prophets and apostles have ever said, unless canonized or declared unanimously and officially, as opinions and non-binding for the whole church. Call this a victory for Beck and many others who have long-considered their revelations as nothing more than opinion.

You can read the announcement at lds.org, it was released by Mike Otterson, a regular contributor at On Faith.

http://www.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=970af549db852110VgnVCM100000176f620aRCRD&vgnextchannel=9ae411154963d010VgnVCM1000004e94610aRCRD

Jones:

"I am not sure I would link myself with mr jacob jozevz, Gaby! Your own comments are enough to discredit you, but jumping on the same train with him is credibility suicide! I always skip his comments -uninterested in the babble."

Jacob is alright! He is a horse of a different color, but alright!

Please enlighten me how my comments discredit me. I (we) have a right to believe whatever I (we)want, just as you do.

I happen think that my version of God is a heck of a lot closer to the truth than yours. More generous too, cause we do not have to judge other people by some man-made yeardstick disguised as holy scripture.

Here is a apologetic review of "Leaving the Saints" by Martha Beck. It discusses some inconsistancies in her story.

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Reviews/Leaving%20the%20Saints_2.html

As a non-Morman, is there any definitive place to go on the web that can resolve whether Ms. Beck's claims about Morman doctrine are true or not? Surely there are places that lay out the full doctrine.

Her uncorroborated claims are unpresuasive. The uncorroborated and venomous denials are even more unpersuasive. How about some evidence?

I am not sure I would link myself with mr jacob jozevz, Gaby! Your own comments are enough to discredit you, but jumping on the same train with him is credibility suicide! I always skip his comments -uninterested in the babble.

Gaby How on earth can you believe what you read on Wikipedia it has been banned from a lot of colleges because what is there about anything is untrustworthy!!!

I have read Beck's book.

Her personal story is hers and she can tell it if she wants. I have never met her, obviously. I make no judgment on her for having told the story. I make no judgment on the facts.

Now, her dad on the other hand, now that is one strange, wierd, crazy, loooooooney dude. Holy cow. You haven't experienced strangeness until you experienced Dr. Nibley. He rambled on when he lectured as if he was speaking Kolobian-Egyptian. Yikes. And going to his house was another trip. The dude had some strange behavior sometimes.

I saw that guy in Provo canyon walking around with his one piece garments unzipped because it was hot. Jeebus. Martha deserves sainthood for surviving that childhood.

Emily:

I read the one on the Wikipedia website.

Dave:

Normally, church leaders are educated people in an established faith, not teenagers who babble about being prophets of God and establishing their own religions.

Of course there were those Jonestown and Koresh people. Those guys were prophets too!

To clarify, I am not picking on the Mormon Church alone. I am against any man-made, organized religion which inludes practically all of them. They have caused more harm than good thoughout the centuries.

I vote for a world-wide moral code by which everyone living person is bound and drop religion altogether.

It would make live much more pleasant and would in all likelyhood promote peace.

I kind of believe what Jacob Jozevz believes.

(God)=IT is in us and all around us. IT is in everything. Our energy (soul) returns to IT when we die.

W. Wells,

I appreciate you also redirecting the discussion to the content of Martha's statement.

The "meat" I think being reffered to is that which requires a large amount of context and background to be understood prior to taking up the subjet which as a LDS I would describe as:

an extensive and thorough grasp of LDS doctrine coupled with personal revelation to the individual directly from Diety via the Holy Ghost that confirms those theological truths/doctrines to the heart and mind.

Everyweek on the Otterson thread (who regularly represents the LDS church as a panalist here at on faith), the issues Martha raised are debated quite well and regularly by both skeptics and believers while objections to the LDS faith based on plural marriage are most often only superficially addressed.

I have long participated in these discussions and personally have refrained from sharing my own thoughts and feelings on the issue.

For me, it's not so much a "raw nerve" as it is a complete lack of enthusiasm to engage and enable additional ridicule directed at the status of LDS woman in general and myself personally.

It is a particularly sensitive issue to LDS for a mulitiplicity of reasons.

My personal invitation to "outsiders" of the faith who genuinely want to understand and hear LDS perspectives on this issue, is to kindly and respectfully engage LDS in a discussion rather than jumping all over them which I understand may be the most natural thing for some to do.

Please believe me when I say that we are all too familiar with the criticisms.

If you want a fair biography not written by a mormon i would recommend Joseph Smith (Penquin Lives) written by Robert V. Remini. or a fair one written by a mormon called "Rough Stone Rolling" by Richard Lyman Bushman.

Joseph Smith owned his own store in Nauvoo! He did work for many in their fields as a youth and in his 20’s. There are 2 means of employment he had or did. How does that make him lazy?

Gaby,
Which biography did you read? Just curious.

I guess restoring God's church on earth, leading a group of people, keeping the church together, and having to move every year because of persecution did take a very lazy man.

Since when is it not o.k. for a church leader to have that be his job when hes a mormon (Joseph Smith) and perfectly fine for all other christians that sustain their preacher that has no other job. I am sure he accomplished much more than any of the other people.

Ms Beck has spent many years now making a very good living saying and writing salacious and in-cite-ful (not insightful) comments about the LDS church.

I believe that whatever she has written and whatever she writes now show her ability to find the latest social trend and capitalize, quite literally, on it. But I think that a person would be hard pressed to find the truth about the LDS church in any of her comments. Her post here is a prime example.

You have been reading the completly slainted biographies of Joseph Smith then.

You shouldn't be an active Mormon if you believe that polygamy is a false doctrine. I am Mormon and know that if Joseph recieved the doctrine in revelation it was true for that time. By the way, Kolob is not a planet in mormon doctrine, it is a star. Therefore God does not live there.

Why would intelligent people follow a religion established by a man who was less than forthright.

I read the biography of Smith and came away with him being a lazy, uneducated good-for-nothing who never worked a day in his life. The only time I ever saw the word employment was that he worked for a company looking for hidden treasure. Wow, what a job!

However, apparently he was good at snowjobing people into giving him money and/or shelter.

In addtition, he committed bank fraud, had aspiration to become president of the US, and had numerous affairs.

Now there a leader to everyone wants to follow!

Mormons do not believe in the infallibility of the prophets. Official church doctrine is that prophets are human and can and do make mistakes.

Moreover, many active, temple-going Mormons like me believe that polygamy is a false doctrine introduced erroneously because of Joseph Smith's fallibility. Latter-day prophets are just as fallible as those in the Bible, such as Jonah (who tried to run away from God), Moses (who never saw the promised land because of disobedience), Adam (who was cast out of Eden for transgression), Peter (who denied Christ), and David (who committed adultery and murder). We follow the prophets only to the extent that the prophets follow God.

Ms. Beck is fighting straw men.

W. Wells:

I expect Tracy will answer you sooner or later, forgive me if I interject.

Ms. Beck writes:
1)...the concept of God as Caucasian man who lives near the planet Kolob;
2)the idea that native Americans are descended from refugees from Jerusalem;
3)and the assertion that until 1978, God barred people of African descent from holding priesthood authority. Such delicate issues, termed “the meat of the Gospel,” are generally kept from outsiders.

My answers:

1) Mormons believe God has a physical body and that Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are separate entities from God. We don't believe anything about God's race and are not certain of his location. In spite of God's corporeal nature, we still believe his spirit and influence are everywhere.

2) The Book of Mormon tells the story of people who left Jerusalem and traveled to the Americas. People specualate that some of their descendents were still around when Columbus arrived. Mormons do not believe all Native Americans are descended from Book of Mormon peoples.

3) It's true that people of African descent were not ordained to the priesthood until 1978 and there is a lot of debate in the Mormon church as to why. The notion that God kept the priesthood away from them is far from universally accepted. My personal feeling is that this policy was a remnant of the racist culture the church emerged within in the 19th century, and it took a long time to get past that.

Regarding polygamy, some members of the church feel that it had its time and we will never see it again, others speculate that it may reappear either in this world or the next. We don't know for sure, and the church leadership doesn't talk about it anymore except to distance itself from it. My personal reading of Mormon scripture has convinced me that polygamy will never return nor will it be practiced in the next life.

In general, I think Ms. Beck has chosen the most controversial aspects of Mormonism and spinned them to sound as bizzare as possible (they may indeed be bizarre, but she makes too obviousan effort to make them seem so). She also fails to acknowledge that there is controversy in the church regarding many of them, these thngs are hardly as settled as she says.

If one believes the biblical fairy tales, then this notion of God being a guy living on some obscure planet is in direct conflict with the Bible.

God supposedly had discussions with Abraham and Moses, yet neither ever saw God. Why not, if he was just another man? From what I remember he appeared as a burning bush and such and it was clearly stated that God is so glorious that you would die if you ever laid eyes on him.

How do Mormons reconcile that little tidbit?

WWells
This "meat of the Gospel" term is news to me - especially as applied to the "doctrines" she describes. I am a lifelong member and have studied a lot and have never heard the term used in that context. Martha Beck decribes a religion that is foreign to me and most members.
She obviously spends a lot of time crafting this.
The meat of the gospel would be understood by most members to be the principles of faith, repentance and baptism. The "doctrines" Beck is talking about are mysteries and theories that some may espouse, but they are not accepted doctrine of the church and not accepted by the mainstream of its members.

Wow the more I find out about Mormon beliefs, the weirder it gets. God is a man and resides on the planet Kolob???

I respectfully be to differ!

God is an IT, has no material form, and resides everywhere.

Jacob has it right, Harry Potter and the Book of Mormom are child safe.

I am not so sure about it being people and government friendly.

Hello Tracy,
What about those delicate issues
termed "The meat of the gospel" Martha mentions,
including the concern over polygamy.
Could you shed some light on these matters for me?

With regards to Traci Hall's comment:

The Saviour said, "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you"

It doesn't matter what she does, your duty as a disciple of Christ (asuming you are a Christian, my appologies if you are not) is to forgive her, and pray for her as Christ taught us to do.

In Lehi's vision he saw a great and spacious building (representing the pride of the world), those who occupied that building have been in the attitude of pointing the finger of scorn at those who have been comming to the tree of life (a representation of the love of God) through all ages of the world. But in that account we have the perscription to deal with the persecution and scorn that they level at us, "but we heeded them not" (see 1 Nephi 8:33-34).

When you give too much heed to the bitter words of detractors you all to often will become bitter towards such characters. This bitterness distences you from the love of God. So you see that you are only hurting yourself by crusading against this woman.

Let it go. Forgive her, and forget the offence.

My understanding is that Ms. Beck's memory of sexual abuse was retrieved while in her later adulthood under hypnosis.

Whether one believes her about it or not, HER PAIN IS REAL and I think all should be sensitive to it.

I hope this thread will be about the issues Ms. Beck has raised, not a debate about Nibly or Ms. Beck herself.

Whatever the real story is, it remains a tragedy -- whether perpetrated by Nibly or bad psychology.

"The concept of God as Caucasian man . . . "

Caucasian? Wow, Martha, you've made up a new one!

But this whopper is nothing compared to the salacious lies you published, about your own father, a gentle, distinguished, faithful, brilliant scholar whom I personally knew and respected.

Hugh Nibley is now where you can't possibly hurt him, so you spit your venom at the living.

"Skeptic" indeed! "fabulist" is the right label, and shame on the Washington Post for giving you a bully pulpit!

Ms. Beck,

I read your book during a turning point in my life and was touched. Thank You Martha. Will you p lease accept my sympathies for unkind email campaign that was organized by the Mormon Women. Their efforts to sabatoge you and your book reminded me of the ERA days when Mormon women turned against all women because their male priesthood leaders told them to do it.

I don't really see how Mormons beliefs are any further from the mainstream than Christian evangelicals who believe that Noah had dinosaurs
on his ark.