Posted by Pamela K. Taylor on April 23, 2007 7:34 AM
All Comments (56)
SANTO:
jozez man,its sad to hear that your familly have been kild in GERMANY (HITLER)
Hitler was krazy man... but he was half JEW ,a half that he hated ...thats wat i saw in many documenterys ...
jozez your parents died 60 years a go but my familly died few months a go buy Ramsfeld cheeny
....still killing now.... DONT tell me JOZEZ that they are no JEWS .
iftakhar
want to talk india, i love to talk india. but, first the fact that they did not kill everyone does not mean i am wrong. that is like saying there were some jews left after hitler so to say hitler was a murdering scum - well that would be wrong. but i digress. lets talk india.
here is a outline of the love and peace showered on india by their peace loving islamic brothers. a good number of these accounts have come from the writings of ISLAMIC writers extoling the victory [?] over the lowly hindus:
the Islamic invasion actually attempted to decimate the Indian religions of Dharma and the Culture of Bhaaratvarsha, but they did not succeed.
(From the accounts of arikh-i-Yamini of Utbi the secretary of Mahmud of Gaznavi) talking about killing indians and battles.
At Thaneshwar.
"The blood of the infidels flowed so copiously at Thanesar that the stream was discolored, not withstanding its purity, and people were unable to drink it. The Sultan returned with plunder which is impossible to count. Praise be to Allah for the honor he bestows on Islam and Muslims."
At Somnath
"The Muslims paid no regard to the booty till they had satiated themselves with the slaughter of the infidels and worshipers of sun and fire.... The number of infidels killed exceeded 50,000"
At Mathura
"The infidels...deserted the fort and tried to cross the foaming river...but many of them were slain, taken or drowned... Nearly fifty thousand men were killed."
Mahmud of Ghori
(from Hasan Nizami's Taj-ul-Maasir) Kol (Modern Aligarh)
"Those of the horizon who were wise and acute were converted to Islam, but those who stood by their ancestoral faith were slain with the sword"
Kol (Modern Aligarh) 20,000 prisoners were taken and made slaves
'Three bastions were raised as high as heaven with their heads and their carcases became food for the beasts of prey
Kalinjar - 50,000 prisoners were taken as slaves
Varnasi or Kasi (Benaras) : Kamil-ut-Tawarikh of Ibn Asir records,
"The slaughter of Hindus (at Varanasi) was immense; none were spared except women and children,(who were taken into slavery) and the carnage of men went on until the earth was weary."
Sultan Firuz Shah Tughlaq
(from Insha-i-Mahry by Amud Din Abdullah bin Mahru)
Delhi: -a punishment in detail (from Tarikh-i-Firuz Shahi)
"A report was brought to the Sultan than there was in Delhi an old Brahman who persisted in publicly performing the worship of idols in his house and that people of the city, both Muslims and Hindus used to resort to his house to worship the idol. The Brahman had constructed a wooden tablet which was covered within and without with paintings of demons and other objects. An order was accordingly given to the Brahman and was brought before Sultan.The true faith was declared to the Brahman and the right course pointed out. but he refused to accept it. A pile was risen on which the Kaffir with his hands and legs tied was thrown into and the wooden tablet on the top. The pile was lit at two places his head and his feet. The fire first reached him in the feet and drew from him a cry and then fire completley enveloped him. Behold Sultan for his strict adherence to law and rectitude."
Delhi : (after Hindus paid the toleration tax (zar-i zimmiya) and poll-tax(jizya) they were foolish enough to build their temples.so...) "Under divine guidance I (Sultan) destroyed these temples and I killed the leaders of these infedility and others I subjected to stripes and chastisement "
Gohana (Haryana):
"Some Hindus had erected a new idol-temple in the village of Kohana and the idolaters used to assemble there and perform their idolatrous rites. These people were seized and brought before me. I ordered that the perverse conduct of these leaders of this wickedness be punished by publicly abd that they should be put to deathe before the gate of the palace."
Jajnagar:(Expedition objectives as stated by Sultan: Source:Ainn-ul-Mulk)
massacring the unbelievers, demolishing their temples, hunting the elephants, getting a glimpse of their enchanting country
I LOVE WHERE IN THE MIDST OF MURDER HE ACTUALLY TALKED ABOUT THE ENCHANTING COUNTRY - sort of nazi like isn't it.
Orissa:'Sirat-i-Firoz Shahi' records his expedition with the following words:
"Nearly 100,000 men of Jajnagar had taken refuge with their women, children, kinsmen and relations The swordsmen of Islam turned the island into a basin of blood by the massacre of the unbelievers. Women with babies and pregnant ladies were haltered, manacled, fettered and enchained, and pressed as slaves into service in the house of every soldier."
The Jihads of Shihabuddin,
the Sultankalka of Ghur
Around 1140, the Islamized Turko-Mongol chiefs of the Shansabanid tribe occupied Ghor in Afghanistan. Initially it was a vassal of the Ghaznavid Sultans, but around 1130 it came into conflict with them, after one of the leading Shansabanid nobles was murdered by the Ghaznavid Sultan, Bahram. A ferocious war ensued between the Sultans of Ghor and Ghazni, till Alla-ud-din Ghori invaded Ghazni with his entire cavalry and wrested it from Bahram. Alla-ud-din sacked the Indian spoils that Mahmud had placed there, massacred the city’s population in a 7-day killing spree and subsequently burnt it down. The next Ghaznavid Sultan, Khushro Maliq was driven out of Afghanistan by a coalition of Oghuz Turks and the Ghorids in 1157, and the Oghuz took Ghazni. The sons of Alla-ud-din, Ghiyas-ud-din Mu’azz-ud-din Ghori and Shihab-ud-din Muhammad Ghori defeated the Oghuz and annexed Ghazni in 1174. Ghiyas-ud-din, crowned himself Sultan, and appointed his brother Sultankalka. Shihab-ud-din was assigned the task of extending the kingdom to the East and he naturally gravitated towards India. 13 bloody campaigns that ravaged Northern India followed:
• Early in 1175 he invaded Punjab and sacked and burned Uch...(1)
• In 1178 he advanced south and marched towards Gujarat, but here the Indians acted quickly and rallying under the western chAlukya king MUlarAja II routed the Islamic forces completely forcing him to retreat...(2)
• In 1179 Ghori sent a message to PrithivirAja chAhamAna to make common cause with him against the Chalukyas. Prithivaraj however, wise disregarding his foolish minister, kadambavAsa’s advise to make a common cause with Ghori, preemptively attacked NaDDula and reconquered it from the Moslems.
• Shihab recovered in 1180 and invaded Sindh and ravaged the population carrying away much loot...(3)
• Then Shihabuddin Muhammad, quickly followed it up in 1181 and 1184 with two invasions of Lavapura (Lahore) accompanied with much slaughter...(4+5)
• In 1186 he invaded the Ghaznavid occupied Punjab and defeated the Sultan Khushro Maliq and wrested Punjab...(6)
• 1188 The Ghur Sultankalka invaded the ChAhamAna kingdom and sacked the fort of Tabarhindah killing the Hindu male populace and raping the women. Hindu refugees flocked around Delhi alarming the ChAhamAnas...(7)
• 1191 PrithivirAj advanced to meet Shihabuddin’s raid and routed him in the great battle of Tarai. While the Muslims suffered a crushing defeat, the Indians failed to butcher them to man and allowed Shihab to get away unharmed. He fled back to Central Asia leaving Punjab completely undefended...(8)
• 1191 PrithivirAj attacked Tabarhindah and took it back from the Muslims. Here the biggest mistake of the Hindus was not to reconquer and arm Punjab suitably.
• 1192 Shihab returned and sacked Tabarhindah again. This was followed by the second battle of Tarai, the ChAhamAna army was crushed and Prithiviraj was captured and brutally tortured to death...(9)
• 1192 the Ghur Sultankalka made a second trust towards Ajayamerupura (Ajmer) and sacked it smashing Hindu temples and a Hindu university in course of this invasion. The Hindus captured in this expedition caused slave prices to fall to a few Dirhams in the Muslim markets...(10)
• 1193 The sultankalka invaded Kannauj and slew the GAhadwala king Jayachandra. He followed this up with an invasion of vArANsipura slaughtering Hindus with great savagery and desecrating the holy city...(11+12)
After this, his viceroy Kutub-ud-din (also his lover?) and the Turkish adventurer Ikhtiyaruddin Khalji furthered the violence of Islam in the land of Hind. Meanwhile Shihab’s brother died in Ghazna and he crowned himself Sultan and immediately launched himself into another Jihad on the infidels of Hindustan in 1206. The exact course of this campaign is not clear. While on the North-western reaches of the Sindhu, he was ambushed by the Khokar chiefs and shot down by an arrow...(13). Thus ended the carrier of the Moslem brigand who brought misery to the whole of northern India through his 13 invasions.
Aurangazeb (1658 - 1707 )
Aurangzeb considered himself "The Scourge Of The Kafirs" (non-believers) and closed Hindu schools and libraries. In his lifetime he destroyed more than 10,000 Hindu, Buddhist and Jam temples and often erected mosques in their stead.3 In 1669 in Agra he had hacked off the limbs of the recalcitrant Hindu King Gokla and in 1672 several thousand revolting Hindus were slaughtered in Mewat.
From: Maasi-i-Alamgiri
Issued general order to destroy all centers of Hindu learnings including Varnasi and destroyed the temple at Mathura and renamed it as Islamabad
In Khandela (rajastan) he killed 300 Hindus in one day for they resisted the destruction of their temple.
In Udaipur all Hindus of the town were killed as they vowed to defend the temple of Udaipur from destruction.
172 temples were destroyed in Udaipur.
66 temples were pulled down in Amber. All Hindu clerks were dismissed from the office of the Imperial empire.
In Pandhpur , Maharashtra, the Emperor ordered and executed the destruction of temple and butchering of cows within the temple.
Aurangazeb also tortured to death the disciples of Guru Tegh bahadur before his death and also killed Guru. Guru Tegh Bahadur - the pride of Hindustan was martyred for he spoke for the persecuted Hindus of Hindustan. Aurangazeb also killed Guru Gobind singh's two children aged less than ten by walling them alive for not accepting the choice of Islam. In Punjab Muslim governors killed hundreds of Sikh children and made Sikh women eat the flesh of their own killed children. Banda Bahadur another great Sikh martyr before being torturd to death was also made to eat the flesh of his own children killed before his eyes. Any Muslim bringing the head of a dead Sikh was also awarded money
Zahiru'd-Din Muhammed Babur (1526 - 1520 )
Babur's Own Words on Killing Hindus:
For the sake of Islam I became a wanderer,
I battled infidels and Hindus,
I determined to become a maryr
Thank God I became a Killer of Non-Muslims!
From Baburnama, the Memoires of Babur Himself:
In AH 934 (1538 ) I attacked Chanderi and by the grace of Allah captured it in a few hours. We got the infidels slaughtered and the place which had be Daru'l-Harb (nation of non-muslim) for years was made into a Daru'l-Islam (muslim nation).
Guru Nanak on Babur's atrocities:
Source:Rag Asa Guru Nanak Dev witnessed first hand the atrocities Babur committed on Hindus and recorded them in his poems. He says: Having attacked Khuraasaan, Babar terrified Hindustan. The Creator Himself does not take the blame, but has sent the Mugal as the messenger of death. There was so much slaughter that the people screamed. Didn't You feel compassion, Lord? pg (360)
On the condition of Hindu women in Babur's monster rule:
Those heads adorned with braided hair, with their parts painted with vermillion - those heads were shaved with scissors, and their throats were choked with dust.They lived in palatial mansions, but now, they cannot even sit near the palaces.... ropes were put around their necks, and their strings of pearls were broken. Their wealth and youthful beauty, which gave them so much pleasure, have now become their enemies. The order was given to the soldiers, who dishonored them, and carried them away. If it is pleasing to God's Will, He bestows greatness; if is pleases His Will, He bestows punishment pg(417-18)
On the nature of Mughal rule under Babur:
First, the tree puts down its roots, and then it spreads out its shade above. The kings are tigers, and their officials are dogs; they go out and awaken the sleeping people to harass them. The public servants inflict wounds with their nails. The dogs lick up the blood that is spilled. Source:Rag Malar, (pg.1288)
From an article by Dr. Harsh Narain on Muslim Testimony (Indian Express 2/26/90):
Since the establishment of Zahiru'd-Din Ghazi's rule, officers and religious leaders spread Islam vigorously desteroying the Hindu faith. We cleared the filth of Hinduism from Faizabad and Avadh.
Jahangir (1605 - 1628)
Source: Tuzuk-i-Jahangiri
Though in the beginning of his rule Jahangir followed the humanistic rule of his father Akbar the great -the policy of sulehkul even issued a proclamation against the forcible conversion of Hindus to Islam, he revoked Akbar's orders that those who have been forcibly converted from Islam could return to Hinduism. He severely punished Kaukab, Sharif and Abdul Latif for showing inclination to Hinduism. He also prohibited the free inter-marriage customs between Hindus and Muslims in Kashmir. Hindus marrying Muslim girls and those who had already married were given a hoice between Islam and death. Many were killed.
Jahangir's torture of Guru Arjun Dev ji: Guru was imprisoned at Lahore fort. He was chained to a post in an open place exposed to the sun from morning to evening in the summer months of May to June. Below his feet a heap of sand was put which burnt like a furnace. Boiling water was poured on his naked body at intervals. His body was covered with blisters all over. In this agony Guru used to utter.
Tera Kiya Metha lage, naam padarath Nanak mange(whatever you ordain appears sweet. I supplicate for the gift of name)
The Guru was ordercd to be executed. In addition a fine of Rupees two lakhs was imposed on him. Some historians say that, as a measure of clemency at the intervention of Mian Mir, this fine was imposed in lieu of the sentence of death. The Sikhs offered to pay the fine themselves but the Guru forbade them to do so. He replied to the Emperor, "Whatever money I have is for the poor, the friendless and the stranger. If thou ask for money thou mayest take what I have; but if thou ask for it by way of fine, I shall not give thee even a Kaurz (penny)." The Guru accepted death by torture.
Shah Jahan (1658 - 1707)
In 1632 Shah jahan ordered that all Hindu temples recently erected or in the course of construction should be razed to the ground. In Benares alone seventy six temples were destroyed. Christian churches at Agra and Lahore were demolished. In a manner befitting the Prophet he had ten thousand inhabitants executed by being "blown up with powder, drowned in water or burnt by fire". Four thousand were taken captive to Agra where they were tortured to try to convert them to Islam. Only a few apostacised, the remainder were trampled to death by elephants, except for the younger women who went to harems.
Shahjahan put enormous eonomic pressure on Hindus particularly peasents to become Muslims. The criminals too were forced to become Muslims.
Source: Badshah Nama, Qazinivi & Badshah Nama , Lahori
When Shuja was appointed as governor of Kabul he carried on a ruthless war in the Hindu territory beyond Indus...The sword of Islam yielded a rich crop of converts....Most of the women (to save their honour) burnt themselves to death. Those captured were distributed among Muslim Mansabdars.
Source: Manucci, Storia do Mogor vol-II p.451 & Travels of Frey Sebastian Manrique
Under Shahjahan peasents were compelled to sell their women and children to meet their revenue requirements....The peasents were carried off to various Markets and fairs to be sold with their poor unhappy wives carrying their small children crying and lamenting. According to Qaznivi Shahjagan had decreed they should be sold to Muslim lords.
YOU CANT DENY ISLAMIC HISTORY SO WHY DO YOU KEEP TRYING?
As a former Muslim I have no hesitation is stating that Islam is a violent faith founded by a violent man, Muhammad. To deny that Muhammad was a violent man and that he founded a violent cult is to deny the truth. One merely has to review Muslim books, books accepted by Muslims as authentic to understand Muhammad's violent nature. His orders to murder an innocent and unarmed poetess, Asma bint Marwan whose only crime was to criticise the Meccans for having accommodated Muhammad are proof of his ruthlessness. There is no denying that Christians have been just as violent but one cannot accuse Jesus of having been a violent man who killed and advocated killing. By the way I am not a Christian and never will be.
Just came across this site and thought I would drop in a question.
When anybody speaks ill about the self proclaimed prophet Mo why is that person targetted/put to death? who has enacted such a law? Is'nt God more superior than Mo.
It is easier for a Muslim to criticize every other faith but when you retaliate they are ready to eat you alive. tell me about it, I live in a muslim country and feel the vibes and seen the fear of most minorities.
Violence is always the result of out of control human emotions that for what ever reason come to a boiling point whenever they have been suppressed too long. In the case of Islam it is obvious that people are being suppressed and enslaved in the name of religion which was also the case with Christianity. It started with Judaism which resulted into Christianity. The acts of Catholics caused the revolt and give us all the fractions within the body of Christ we see today.
The problem with Islam is that people are using the religion to further their political agenda called political Islam and it is the brain child of one man much the same way as Marxism was the brain child of just one man full of hatred and envy. Muslims do not want to separate from their religion in the fashion that people in the West bash and trash theirs that’s why it is such a toxic mix. The biggest problem is that the fundies learn from their counter part in the West how to play the game and terrorize people to get what they want, power at all cost. One factor that many people seem to neglect instead they point the finger at religion and religion alone.....to admit that there is more to the story they would have to see themselves as part of the problem....but knowing human beings that will never happen because it is always easier to blame some body else.
DEB CHATERJEE,
Should your Jaziya be accepted as the motivation for low conversion,then all the muslim scholars who came to India from central asia and persia and many hindus converted voluntarily to Islam would have been not allowed to live in India for fear of losing Jiziya
"...the muslim mughal empire which ruled India for 200 plus years would have either killed or forced to conversion all hindus ..."
They sure could have but they did not because of a very special reason. This is documented in one of the memoirs of Alauddin Khilji.
The reason is that rule of Islam enforces the jiziya (extra protection tax) on kafir infidels [in this case pagan Hindus] according to Quran [009:029]. Thus, the Muslim/Mughal rulers quickly realized that if they forcibly converted all Hindus to Islam, they would not be able to generate the extra revenue for their coffers, because a large majority would then be converted Muslims on whom jiziya cannot be enforced. It was this practicval wisdom that they kept the conversion low. It was strictly a matter of money which they understood well. The Mughal rulers were not benign towards Hindus by any stretch of imagination.
FRANK,
Should your argument about Quran encouraging hate and killing be given any merit,the muslim mughal empire which ruled India for 200 plus years would have either killed or forced to conversion all hindus and like wise for jews and christians under Ottoman Turkish which ruled for 500 years.
The islands of indonesia and malaysia do not show in history books any invading muslim armies.
The followers of Hitler were not muslims or did they follow Quran to kill allied countries christians and jews.
You should read history to find muslims of yesterday by following Quran initiated the begining of industrial revolution.
But then you are so blinded with your agenda against Islam that you just do not get it.
DEB CHATERJEE,
IT IS VERY SAD WHEN FLAG BEARERS OF ISRAEL AND INDIA GIVE SELF SERVING ARGUMENT TO DENY THE BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS TO MUSLIMS TO LIVE WITH DIGNITY AS INDEPENDENT NATION WHEN SEVERAL UNITED NATION'S RESOLUTION ARE ON RECORD TO HOLD PLEBISCITE(AGREED BY INDIA) GOING BACK 58 YEARS AND GOING BACK TO BORDERS BEFORE 1967 WAR BY ISRAEL.
THE TERRORISM STARTED IN 1948 WHEN FEW EXTERMIST JEWISH EUROPEANS ATTACKED THE PALESTINIAN TERRITORIES AND SCARED THE PALESTINIAN POPULATION TO LEAVE THEIR HOMELANDS IN FEAR FOR LIFE AND THE ISRAEL FOR JEWS AT THE EXPENSE OF PALESTINIANS CAME INTO EXISTENSE QUITE CONTRARY TO SILLY ARGUMENT ABOUT MADINAH WHEN MUSLIMS MADE AGREEMENT WITH JEWS TO LIVE IN DIGNITY UNTIL THEY WERE CAUGHT MAKING DEALS WITH MAKKANS TO DESTROY MUSLIMS.
HAMAS WAS CREATED BY ISRAELIS TO COUNTER PLO AND JIHADIST AND EXTREME IDEOLOGY(WAHIBISM) WERE FORMED TO FIGHT PROXY WAR FOR THE WEST AGAINST COMMUNISM AND SOVIET UNION.
IT IS IRONIC WHEN FEW MUSLIMS START ARM STRUGGLE AGAINST THE MIGHTY ARMIES OF ISRAEL AND INDIA AFTER EXPIRING PEACEFUL MEANS TO THE RESOLUTION OF THEIR RIGHTS ARE ACCUSED OF TERRORISM BUT KILLING OF STONE THROWERS AND PEACEFUL PROTESTS IS CONSIDERED SELF DEFENSE BY THE STATE.
PLEASE READ YOU STATEMENT MAHARAJA SIGNED THE INSTRUMENT TO JOIN THE SO CALLED SECULAR INDIA NOT THE MAJORITY MUSLIM POPULATION AND IF IT WAS NOT FOR UN RESOLUTION TO STOP THE WAR THE OTHER HALF OF KASHMIR WOULD HAVE BEEN INDEPENDENT AS THE ALWAYS GULLIBLE MUSLIMS BELIEVED IN THE FAIRNESS OF THEIR NON MUSLIM NATIONS.
LAST SIXTY YEARS HAVE PROVEN THAT THERE IS NO JUSTICE AWARDED TO WEAK SPECIALLY MUSLIMS UNLESS IT IS TAKEN BY FORCE AND HENCE THE TURMOIL IN THE WORLD UNLESS RESOLUTION IS MADE ON PRINCIPLE OF FAIRNESS.
MY APOLIGIES IN ALL CAPS AS IT IS A LAZY HABIT AND DO NOT MEAN TO OFFEND INTERNET MANNERS.
i love islamics lying about how peaceful their religion is. islam in not compatable with anything dealing with democracy, its closer to nazism than anything else, especially in their hate for jews. except islam predated hitler by 1400 years when moho said dont take jews and christians and hindu's as friends, or work with them, and oh yea, if they dont convert - kill them.
so quit lying. not only does the koran demand hate and murder, and for the last 1400 years, they have engaged in what the koran demands, hae and murder.
after moma clean you good and dress you to go to the school of dialogueing ,do not forget to bring your text book if not at least your reson book if not at least donot forget the golden arm and hammer rule of mom do -not liter-be environement friendly ,save the planet earth,if you donot have something positive to say remain silent more power for the planet earth.I LOVE MOMA.ALL PRAISE GOES TO THE CREATOR OF MOMA.
"The Palestinians and Kashmiris are being subjected to suffering and oppression for last 60 years by Israelis(Jews) and Indians(predominantly Hindus) for want of independent Homeland."
That is a baloney. In both cases, Muslims want to form their own Islamic state. In both cases they are funded for their Jihad in the cause of Allah (terrorism) by Iran, Syria (Palestine) and Pakistan (Kashmir). These cowards don't have the guts to fight an army openly but prey on the unarmed men, women and children.
In the case of Israel, the Hamas and Islamic Jihad stated that they want Israel to cease from the map. This can be "peacefully" achieved if Jews move out of Israel. However, if Hamas can lay claim to Israel as their ancestral land, then Jews should also claim back Madinah because the Quran has records that Jews origibally lived there till they were forced into conversion or finally had been exiled or killed by Prophet Muhammad. So will Muslim community agree to a land exchange for Israel vs. Madinah ?
In the case of Kashmir, it is a terrorist strategy started by Amanullah Khan (head honcho of Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front - JKLF) since 1989. The separatist movement has its roots in the creation of an Islamic state because majority of the Muslim population in Kashmir are Muslims. India did not take away Kashmir. Maharaja Hari Singh, fearing attacks by Pakistani terrorists, signed the Instrument of Accession Act in 1950s to join India. That is recorded in the UN. Thus, if a state joins secular India, how can India agree to secession based on religious identity ?
Its plain stupid to make such a claim on Kashmir based on religious grounds.
"What I am doing on this forum is offerring my opinion. My thoughts. Not the thoughts of al-Qaeda members, or Iraqis engaged in the war, or Sudanes jangaweed murders, of anyone else in the entire world, but my own personal understanding of Islam. I do no believe, like you, that Islam is evil or violent. That is not hypocricy. I would not have converted if I thought Islam was violent or evil. (Duh.) So naturally, I am going to eludidate my (positive) understanding of Islam."
Many women I know have converted only to find out for themselves, but alas firsthand, that indeed:
(a) Islam is a violent, intolerant religion hostile towards other ancient (pre-Islamic) systems and cultures;
(b) Islam treats women as sex objects and the husband is the boss who is technically allowed to beat her up and honor killings (of women) are appreciated by some Islamic countries (Jordan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Egypt, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq etc. and etc.) to preserve the high respect for women in Muslim societies;
(c) Islam does not allow conversion out of islam, and would declare that as apostacy punishable by death [Quran(005:033)].
Given these three holy attributes of the world's fastest growing religion, the Muslim women are shackled and kept under the dark veil as some fancy-dressed Fatimah in a dress rehearsal. The women are afraid to speak up for fear of losing their lives.
In west, women like yourself, present the most ambiguous alternative. You opine, talk freely (Fee Speech), mix amongst men, dominate and don't support polygamy - that is sanctioned by the Quran. But to us, the despicable pagan polytheists (Hindus/Buddhists), who happen know a larger part of the Islamic bloc than what we are told by some babbling academic (such as John L. Esposito), we feel that you westernized men and women are simply misleading with compulsive deception. All that you folks can do by staying within America is to exercise your Free Speech by condemning what you think is wrong about Islam. (Your posts are an excellent example for that.) You surely don't speak for the larger part of the Islamic world which is outside USA and is inherently hostile to the US ways and values. When you don't speak for the larger part, you must learn to accept that living in the ivory tower of Islamic castle is not the fair representation of reality regarding the Islamic world. In the other parts of the world, regarding which we have some more knowledge than you, Islam is most certainly NOT what we know from you. (It is like listening to a happy/well-heeled tourist about a country, and comparing that to from a person who has lived there earning a living. Which one would be more credible ?)
We can always cite independently verifiable instances to support our views. We know that in many of these outrageous cases, the Muslim ummah has justified the barbarism by quoting from the precedents of the Islamic jurisprudence (from Salafi school), and thus preventing one from arguing with religion, because in the West and secular world religion is held private like sex. (Britain is an example where radical Muslims have taken the entire Muslim community there by storm. See some recent documentaries by CNN's Christian Amanpour and how the Finnsbury mosque is generating radicals.)
Thus, I am not satisfied because I think you are just compulsively misleading. Our diatribes, anger are all directed at the fact that Islam is indeed a violent and vicious religion. It is quite a travesty of justice that whenever anything violent is cited the so-called "moderates" like yourself come out by stating that "words from Quran are taken out of context and hence Islam is defiled buy a kafir (non-believer)" or that "Islam is no worse" (which it indeed is), and that (as a last resort) "Muslims have rights to practice their religion" or that "antiquated/obscurantist quotes from fundamentalists are irrelevant" etc. and etc.
In the process it is ignored that in a multipolar world all aspects need to be considered. If the world has indeed been transformed into a global village, then no one is above common norms. If Islam, of which both Pamela K. Anderson (liberal, secular, modern Muslim with the hijab) and Osama bin Laden (kafir-blood seeking cave-dwelling radical Muslim)are parts and claim equal share of Allah's bounty, can blame others then it must be prepared to take heat from others (non-Islamic) regarding its self-styled hedonism based on contempt for others (aka dar-al-harb).
Unfortunately Islam declares that all things un-Islamic (kufr) is to be eliminated, and that peaceful co-existence with kufr is not a part of its divine agenda.
Judging by the above, Islam in my view reprsents the rigor mortis of a troglodyte civilization. The only way the problem can be kept from growing out of hand is to be vigilant and defensive. That is within the rights of secular, westernized countries.
Islam is a way of life represented through teachings of Quran if followed through the letter and spirit.
Quran provides democracy,economic system,protection of weak in the society including orphans,respect of rights of religious minorities,rules of war in self defense and most importantly spiritual cleanness to be close to human beings creator GOD ALMIGHTY.
This is the message which the last prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) of GOD ALMIGHTY conveyed and has been evergrowing in numbers despite the action of very few mislead so-called muslims.
The Quran clearly states that there is no compulsion in religion,the message of Quran is for whole mankind and GOD ALMIGHTY clearly states that human beings are at loss should they not follow the message of Quran.
It is sad to see how the vested interest of non muslims and muslims have exploited the religion of ISLAM and then mislead the faithful to their political and economic gains.
The muslim countries rulers in the past 50 years are never serious to adopt Islamic way of life because golden rules of fairness and justice would be first applied to themselves.
The government of these rulers are bought and paid for and are manipulated by the Western powers to maintain their economic control.
The present situation in the world of chaos and killing of the innocent is the direct reaction of the few who are manipulated by the political forces and are using ISLAM to secure anger among muslims to harm non-muslims and muslims.
The SUNNIS and SHIAS were living in harmony for the more than 1000 years in all muslim countries contrary to the prevailing impression.
The rift has been created between SUNNIS and SHIAS starting with Iran/Iraq war,Afghanistan internal conflict between Taliban(Sunnis) and Northern Forces(Shias) and now Iraq by asking Shias to help remove Saddam regime (supported by the WEST in arms including chemical weapons against Iran) and then supporting Lebanese Sunni government against Hazbollah (shias).
The people of Timore(the christian faith) looking for independence from Indonesia were granted by the brokering powers at U.N. in few years.
The Palestinians and Kashmiris are being subjected to suffering and oppression for last 60 years by Israelis(Jews) and Indians(predominantly Hindus) for want of independent Homeland.
The number of killings of Palestinians and Kashmiris far out numbers killing by the terrorising muslims BUT is state sponsored and I guess can be justified and Judiaism and Hinduism cannot be blamed.
The franks,perot,brian mcc,jbe,deb chatterjee,concerned christian but liberated and homer find their right to disparage the sentiments of Billion muslims by their derogatory remarks about Mohammad (peace be upon him)(and expecting any muslim to respond similarly which will never happen as muslims have utmost regard for all prophets)and find the reaction of few muslims retaliating against the injustice as terrorism and start to find fault with Islam and Quran.
I do not find them to come and defend the rights of their fellow human beings Palestinians and Kashmiris and attack on a soveriegn country Iraq as they profess in their comments to be humantarians seeking fairness and truth.
I assume that they do not have sense of fairness
in their souls to stand for justice and just have as much hate in their souls and should I assume are agents of OPPRESSORS to spread hate and division among fellow human beings no better than the few politically mislead killers professing to be muslims.
The conversion to Islam like by Pamela will continue till the day of judgement as teachings of ISLAM help the thoughtful and truth seeking CREATION find its CREATOR GOD ALMIGHTY and ultimately the goal of serenity and peace of body and soul.
what is the matter dan, cant handly one year of islamic terror? that is called spam? we can put on a lot more than that. here are a few of the acts leading up to the crusades. islam is hate and nothing more. it demands hate and murder and islamics live up to it daily. they kill for no other reason except that the person they are murdering is not islamic, but that is exactly what the koran demands. but back to the crusades. here are a few things happy time peaceful islam did prior to the crusades. but you islamics will come up with an excuse.
The first Crusade began in 1095… 460 years after the first Christian city was overrun by Muslim armies, 457 years after Jerusalem was conquered by Muslim armies, 453 years after Egypt was taken by Muslim armies, 443 after Muslims first plundered Italy, 427 years after Muslim armies first laid siege to the Christian capital of Constantinople, 380 years after Spain was conquered by Muslim armies, 363 years after France was first attacked by Muslim armies, 249 years after Rome itself was sacked by a Muslim army, and only after centuries of church burnings, killings, enslavement and forced conversions of Christians.
oh its great to be islamic - you lie about being a religion of peace while you hate and murder your way across the world.
For whomever said that all the terrorists today are Muslims, I refer (again) to the article that came out two days ago outlining Europol's report that of 436 terrorist attacks carried out in Europe last year, only 1 was perpetrated by Muslims. Your statement about all terrorists are Muslim is just false, and badly so.
However, I can understand why you might have come to this conclusion since there is at least an American media blackout about other terrorist attacks -- such as the destruction of the Madrid airport parking garage, and the attacks on the American embassy in Greece just a couple months ago.
PS Please note, this comment does not mean I think Muslim don't have to deal with terrorists in our midst. We do. But misinformation and islamophobia will not help us do so, rather it will give "the enemy" greater ease in recruiting members as they can point to the scapegoating and unfair treatment of Muslims as proof that America is out to get Muslims. A stupid sentiment, in my opinion, but one which plays well overseas, especially when we Americans play into.
Gandalf
Thanks again for sharing that quotation.
WaPo & Everybody
How about limiting the length of posts? Or a moratorium on all this copying and pasting?
At least 85,000 thousand Americans were murdered by other Americans since 9/11, including the recent murderous spree at Virginia Tech. This is more people dead than any terrorist or insurgent group killed globally, except for Iraq's civil war.
Are we violent because we have easier access to guns, or, because of religion? Remember, guns don't kill in these good old US of A.
can someone really be as stupid as this collins guy?
the real question is:
is democracy a violent religion? and the answer is....................... hell yes
HE HE HITLER WAS HALF JEW AND HALF CHRISTIAN....
BOMB ATOMIC WAS MADE BY A JEW AND DROPED BY CHRISTIANS ...(japan) ,excus, to stop more killings...
Pamela k, is telling what is in curan...and the right to difend you land familly dignetty.....
some times people get kild ,its sad, yes, but ,the worst is the atakar not the difender???
how can some one difend him sel from all this cand of wappens that the west have how can you escape frome all that raders F16 ....
The yong mohamed in irak lost hall his familly att diner table 12 members and he lost bowth legs and bowthe armes...in his home, not at work or en bus...
The other young Mohamed died in his faders armes in palestin...
In muslim TV you see only death blood FBI CIA THREATS ...ofcoures and the robery, stilling ...KILLING AND SINING DOCOMENTs FOR THE NEXT ROBERY AND now the west wants to change war roules ,you now,i choot you in your contry in your home and take your sister too BUT you muslim dont think about toching me because FBI have ,D... god knows what....bla bla bla
Maaan how can the west tel to Iranienes that they can or dont have the right to have a driving licence because you might drink and drive or you can have one but you cant drive because you might drink alkohhol (neucler tecnologie) when the west are drinking and driving all the time and Isreal drive without driving licence b (bomb a)
i dont take drogs can any one pleas explain to me why muslime cant have the right to D to drive and muslimes dont drink ???
sorry sorry ,,,its againstyour interest orsecurity bla bla boolchit...
you just dont want muslimes to have normal life and a real dimocracy tecnologey mony most of all PEACE
peace peace ,muslimes will give you OIL very very cheap (if you are poor) just ask ....
like we ask for every thing and we pay all you say for muslim to drink coca cola needs to work few oures extra ...chime on you
the west the Jews and some Muslimes need to wekup and have a look at the reallity because
without Muslimes Africans asia indiens the west christians ......the planet will not function just like animals with out diferent cand of animals the forest will not survive .Africa is diying, muslimes are sufering ,the west lost ther minds, asia is dreaming....
PEACE B AND SISTERS W ARE ALL ONE FAMILLY AND TOGETHER WE CAN MAKEIT AND WE CAN HELPE THE ONE WHO NEEDS US THATS HOW IT CHOULD BE
The following are lyrics from a song entitled'Boom'.
step on the bus, yeah boom boom boom
mideast eye for eye boom boom boom
a chosen one they go down
3 others donn deaths crown
crusade christians, insurge militias
you know my God he's better than yours
in the holy land... I cannot live with ya
get up draw the shades and close the door
in the land of the prime time boom boom boom
at 6 the news crew boom boom boom
no APR save a dime
hit the 'mute' don't miss that chew
woke up 9/11...innocent they died
our sponsor in heaven, hears both sides cried
crusade christians, insurge militias
you know my God he's better than yours
in the holy land I want to live with ya
get up draw the shades and open the door
Today all terrorists are Muslim. Yes, it was once that they wqere all christians, but that DOES NOT NEGATE THE NEED FOR MODERATE MUSLIMS TO TURN THEIR ANGER AT BEING CONSIDERED MONOLITHIC JIHADISTS AT THOSE VIOLENT UN-ISLAMIC MURDERERS AND KILLERS OF CIVILLIANS.
I call upon you to denounce violence in all of its forms DAILY.
If you love Islam, it is the only thing you can do to represent that Islam in NOT a faith of violence. Speaking it once - or a hundred times - is not enough. Because of the way the world is in the 21st century you and your bretheren MUST denounce violence EVERY time until those in your community who commit violence on civillians are roundly rejected in speech, and in deeds around the Islamic world as traitors to the beautiful and peaceful faith of Islam.
They are idiots destroying the good name of the Prophet.
It is so interesting to come into this forum as a stranger and observe the anger and hatred that exists here. The root causes of violence are human anger, hatred, and most often fear.
Violence within Islam today is not caused by this often misunderstood and misinterpreted religion, but rather by political and economic unrest in the regions where Islam is predominant. I cannot even begin to claim that I have even the most remote grasp of what has spurred this violence, but I do know, from my short years spent on this planet that humans are violent creatures. Religion can be warped to justify violence of all sorts.
While we are speaking historically, let us not forget the history of the Americas. The Spanish conquest, in the name of Catholicism, killed and converted the native populations until almost nothing was left. The economic gains and desires of the Spanish were easily twisted and translated into a religious mission, with god leading the way. During the years that this took place, a list like that presented here earlier would pale in comparison the lost lives of this conquest.
If some of us choose to justify the crusades by listing the prior offenses of Muslims, then you might consider asking yourself what native American populations did to deserve the devastation of the Spanish conguest.
And this is only one isolated example of how humans can twist religion into a justification for violence. We all know that there are so many more. At this current point in time, we are confronted with Islam as our scapegoat for a problem that is spurred on my injustice and hatred, not religios belief.
It really saddens me to see that so many people, including those posting to this site, can foster attitudes of anger, hatred, and fear toward an entire people whose religious beliefs are not predominantly violent in nature.
We may not all be able to understand one another, but as an Irish-American Catholic, I for one would like us to try. At the very least we should wish one another peace, and engage in civil discussions that tend toward enlightenment, and not ignorance; peace and not hate.
Homer, I just wanted to pont out that there are two comments threads on this post. One here as featured response and one under all panelists. I don't think your comment was deleted, rather it is under that other listing. Further, I have no control over anything that is posted on the comments threads, that power lies with the moderators of the forum, or the Washington Post/Newsweek web handlers.
Deb, the history of Islam in not particularly bloodier than the history of any group of people. And, in fact, most of the current Muslim world came to be Muslim through cultural contact, not forced conversion.
What I am doing on this forum is offerring my opinion. My thoughts. Not the thoughts of al-Qaeda members, or Iraqis engaged in the war, or Sudanes jangaweed murders, of anyone else in the entire world, but my own personal understanding of Islam. I do no believe, like you, that Islam is evil or violent. That is not hypocricy. I would not have converted if I thought Islam was violent or evil. (Duh.) So naturally, I am going to eludidate my (positive) understanding of Islam.
I do have plenty of criticism of other interpretations of Islam (please note this paragraph which I reproduce from an admittedly long posting: Of course, as with any religion, or even atheism for that matter, those who wish to wage war, will find texts in the tradition that they can abuse and distort to support their cause. This is what Osama Bin Laden does when he calls for international jihad. This is what Yusuf Qaradawi does when he supports Palestinian suicide bombers. This is the fatal mistake made by Syed Qutb and Maududi who promoted the notion that there is a realm of peace and a realm of war, and that Islam had to be spread by whatever means necessary. These people ignore(d) fundamental Islamic principles in order to justify their own teaching and/or acts of hatred and violence.)
I did not blame the media, nor America. I blamed Muslims and their skewed (as I understand it) interpretations. Sorry if that is not good enough for you.
Your tireless (quixotic) attempt to paint the bloody history of Islam (begining with Prophet Muhammad) as a religion of peace is ludicrous and borders hypocrisy. You just ignore the obvious and blame the American meedia.
I am begining to believe that there is nothing called "moderate Muslim"; all Muslims are closet fundamentalists, including yourself.
Ok, let start cleansing/updating the Koran: (something long overdue and therefore worth repeating on other commentary pages)
"The 77 Branches of Faith is a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true faith (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings."
i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.
"30 qualities are connected to the heart"
(five at a time)
"1. Belief in Allah"
No problem but "aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added
"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."
No problem but evolution and the Big Bang cannot be ignored and the "akas" for Allah should be included.
"3. To believe in the existence of angels."
A major item to delete. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain natural events,contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.
"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."
Another major item to delete. There are no books written in Heaven just as there are no angels to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.
Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.
Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.
"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."
Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via an "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.
And I just love being in a country where I can list these important items for world peace without the fear of Islamic death squads.
Well, Islam was showned in the History how peacefull it is. The same attitude is today even we want to accept it or not. IT IS THE faith OF SWORD. In Middle East the majority of the people before 622 AD were Christians, what happen to them ? What about the dead city in Cairo ?
What about Filipines ? Indonesia. Bosnia, Albania, etc. Were the Christian those who started the wars ?. The Muslim pretended more they deserved in the name of Allah. I grew up in Easter Europe. Most of theose countries were occupaied including Greece by Muslim, why ? because they were the followers of peace in the name of Allah ?
History in the past , present and in the future don't lie, you do in the name oif Allah.
YOUR ACTION SPEAKS LOUDER THAN WORDS !!!!!
Islam is not a religion IT IS A PAGAN CULT. Sink that in you mind.
Well, Islam was showned in the History how peacefull it is. The same attitude is today even we want to accept it or not. IT IS THE faith OF SWORD. In Middle East the majority of the people before 622 AD were Christians, what happen to them ? What about the dead city in Cairo ?
What about Filipines ? Indonesia. Bosnia, Albania, etc. Were the Christian those who started the wars ?. The Muslim pretended more they deserved in the name of Allah. I grew up in Easter Europe. Most of theose countries were occupaied including Greece by Muslim, why ? because they were the followers of peace in the name of Allah ?
History in the past , present and in the future don't lie, you do in the name oif Allah.
YOUR ACTION SPEAKS LOUDER THAN WORDS !!!!!
Islam is not a religion IT IS A PAGAN CULT. Sink that in you mind.
I apologize in advance for posting this on multiple forums!
Swami Vivekanand was a prominent and respected spiritual leader of the philosophies in India. This is an excerpt of his talk delievered at the World's Parilament of Religions in 1893 in Chicago. I thought this would be an appropriate place to "copy-paste" this part of his talk, considering all the fighting and vitriol being hurled at "other" religions.
"Much has been said of the common ground of religious unity...() But if any one here hopes that this unity will come by the triumph of any one of the religions and the destruction of the others, to him I say, “Brother, yours is an impossible hope.” Do I wish that the Christian would become Hindu or Buddhist? God forbid. Do I wish that the Hindu or Buddhist would become Christian? God forbid. But each must assimilate the spirit of the others and yet preserve his individuality and grow according to his own law of growth...()
If the Parliament of Religions has shown anything to the world it is this: It has proved to the world that holiness, purity and charity are not the exclusive possessions of any church in the world, and that every system has produced men and women of the most exalted character. In the face of this evidence, if anybody dreams of the exclusive survival of his own religion and the destruction of the others, I pity him from the bottom of my heart, and point out to him that upon the banner of every religion will soon be written, in spite of resistance: "Help and not Fight," "Assimilation and not Destruction," "Harmony and Peace and not Dissension.""
This is what Swami Vivekanand had to say over a hundred years ago and it cannot be any more appropriate than in today's world. TOLERANCE is the need of the hour for everyone. Possibly there are flaws in every religion, but only AS IT IS FOLLOWED TODAY. Does it mean that that was what the religion was really about? Was what we see today THE CENTRAL TENET of the religion when it originated? Maybe not! If there appears to be a disconnect, could it not mean mis-interpretation by a select few, over-interpretation (sometimes deliberate) by some opportunistic few?
And there is a difference between religious/spiritual practices and social/cultural practices. A lack of understanding of the difference between the two makes us wrongly label religions are being responsible for the wrong-doings of the people "following" those teachings!
Learn from other religions whatever you can and try to improve your own life. Meaningless bickering leads nowhere...
When you talk of Ramayana. You basically going back nearly 10,000 years.
The battle is to establish Dharrna. The rule of law, for human race.
Rama never robbed the people or started any war to enrich himself. It is part of history of the Aryan or first human race. It never says that if you don’t believe in me you will go to hell or force people to convert.
“Think about the 2000 Muslim killed in Gujarat?” I would say think about the people burned alive by the Moslems, women and children. The train doors locked from the outside. Do you expect people to stay calm. Moslems have killed, raped, sold men and women in slavery; millions of Hindu over the past 1000 years. Have the Hindu declared Holly war on Islam or marched on Mecca or taken revenge? It is the Moslems who marched into India to impose their barbaric culture . Read some books on the conquest of the Sind.
When did the Moslems become protector of the Sikhs? Think of how many Sikhs were butchered in Partition of India and how many women raped by the Moslem. Social problem will always be there. Hindu and Sikhs pray[even today] at each other places of worship. They have a Sikh PM and head of the arms forces; President who is Moslem and Christian as the head of the Congress party. What has Islam has to answer. Oh yes! Convert or kill the minorties.
. You Moslem cannot tolerate one another. How can you point a finger at a society that is willing to be faire to the minority! Any example in the Moslem’s world? No! Unlike Sunni and Shiite who butchering each other for the last 1000 year and it seems nothing has changed.
Tamil tigers? You should also include IRA. The big difference is; they are fighting for their rights [Dharma]. I don’t recall they declared war on the world to convert the world to their ways of thinking or to their religion. Have they? But you[Moslems] have to kill, murder people to convert the world to your Arabs and backward religion.
Have the Hindu, Sikh, Buddhists ever fought each other to convert. No1. Have they declared to march into the world and destroy Mecca and Rome and convert the people .No! Moslem kill each other every day for what?.
Islam is a reaction to Christianity and Judaism[the Jews] of his[Mo’s] time.Christians and the Jews would taunt the Moslems that they[Moslems] believe in many gods and we only believe in one god. It is this reaction that created Islam and not some God inspirations.
Christ , Buddha, never hurt anyone. They never created armies to march on other nations. But Mo was a butcher and a rapist who believed in violence to convert the entire the world.
If some passage are taken out of context, that does not make Christ and Buddha like Mo. There are lot of passages in the Koran, the Moslem don’t understand but accept them as true. Sixty percentage of the Koran deals with war and other inhuman acts.
If you want to talk about Buddhism and Hinduism. First read the Veda and Upanishads and the Gita.
Buddhism , Hinduism are called Sanathan Dharma. Which means the ancient rules set out by the creator for human at the beings. Do your duty to all human being regardless of creed or colour. The world is one big family so say the Veda.
If Islam is religion of peace and perfect. How come the entire Moslem world is in a mess; killing each other every day. I don’t see Christian and other religion killing each other.
Since Islam is suppose to be the last word and the perfect word of so called god, and Mo suppose to be the last prophet[who never prophesied anything]. Why do you need other’s people religion to defend your religion. God stand on truth. The truth[for muslems] as I have mentioned earlier. You[Islam] can only exist by reacting to other’s faiths and not by any so called word of god.
You wouldn't suppose that Frank Collins continues to spam this forum in an effort to drive people away from the site, do you? What other reason is there for posting spam that nobody IN THEIR RIGHT MIND would bother reading?
You had my answer before. Why has it been removed?
It clearly shows your religion is a cult. If Mo claim it is the last word of God and perfect. Why on earth do you need to point to other religions to justify your barbarism. Can’t you stand and argue your points by using the Koran alone. Islam was created as reaction to other religion and not because some god came and inspire Mo.
You are in position to talk about Hinduism or Buddhism.
When they [Hinduism or Buddhism] start to march on Rome or Mecca only then you should consider them to be violent.
To Curious Cat-----The cities of Mecca and Medina are not tourist areas for anyone to simply go there to sight-see. Muslims from all over the world go there with the strict purpose of fulfilling one of the pillars of the faith--the hajj in accordance to God's command. There are many other places around the world that welcome nonMuslim guests to learn about Islam.
The very question at hand tells me that the moderators of this forum don't even bother to read it. The question has been answered for weeks now without it even being asked. Now they fully validate this anti-Islam rant by requesting it be the very subject at hand. Honestly!
Frank Collins, do you think that no one gets your point? I got it weeks ago. I, for one, don't feel the need to repeat my self over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, again.
No matter how many ways you say it, it is the same old stuff. The ONLY change is that maybe it gets more boring (see above).
It drowns out others who disagree, and that is a sad tactic in attempting to prove a point. There has been no balance of viewpoint here, because anyone trying to learn about Islam, let alone defend it, has been abused and run out of town "on a rail".
While I firmly believe in the right to free speech, and respect the opinions of others, whether I agree or not...I have no respect for willful and proud ignorance. I try always to acknowledge, and then correct my own ignorance. I am not so insecure that I need to shout any old thing to keep people from thinking I am ignorant. I would rather show to anyone that I am open to all sorts of possibilities while I live on this planet.
As I should have done sooner, I will exercise my right to exclude myself from things I disagree with. Which, in this case, is the attempt to quiet anyone with a pro-Islam viewpoint at all costs.
To Pamela and others of you who have given me some insight into what makes Islam inspirational to you, I thank you. You have sent me in the proper direction for discovering the truth for myself, whatever I may find that to be. At least I will have a clear consience, knowing that I searched in the spirit of accepting and respecting ALL my fellow humans.
To Frank----it would take some time to verify if the crimes being done in Thailand are true. The bulk of that list is predominately in war-zones of Iraq and Afghanistan, and majority of the crimes are done for non-religious reasons. Do you think people are so dumb they can't see that? I always find it odd when Muslims commit crimes their religion is blamed, yet when Christians and Jews do the same, no mention is ever made. It's not Islam, its individuals.
Just yesterday, I read a very interesting article about Europol's analysis of the 436 terrorist attacks that occured in Europe this past year. Exactly 1 of them had been carried out by an Islamic group. Of course, this does not make headlines, even in Europe.
I would also point out that the vast majority of those acts posted by Frank occurred in Iraq -- a war zone. While they are atrocious and horrible acts, it is hardly surprising that horrible things happen during warfare. The firebombing of Dresden wasn't exactly nice, nor the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
The reason why this is so is because these areas are ment to be a spiritual center for islam and for the muslims around the world. They are neither tourist sites nor are they means to 'have fun'. They are soley prescribed to the Muslims as an act of faithfulness, devotion, and integrity. These areas are means of salvation and refugee for the millions of pilgrims, not another place to visit. The Muslim's soul is poured out when reaching these holy areas and is in a constaint state of ihram (devotion, disconnection from life, etc).
Spamming the board with isolated accounts of violence doesn't prove your point. Besides, your examples make about as much sense as using World War I and II to prove Christianity is violent.
All Comments (56)
jozez man,its sad to hear that your familly have been kild in GERMANY (HITLER)
Hitler was krazy man... but he was half JEW ,a half that he hated ...thats wat i saw in many documenterys ...
jozez your parents died 60 years a go but my familly died few months a go buy Ramsfeld cheeny
....still killing now.... DONT tell me JOZEZ that they are no JEWS .
HOLICOST KIDS KILD MY FAMIILY
April 25, 2007 10:51 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 25, 2007 10:51
In Regards to history, I offer this line:
"If we do not study history and learn from it, then we are doomed to repeat it."
Maybe we all need to start learning from history, both Christian and Islam . Just a thought.
April 24, 2007 10:46 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 24, 2007 10:46
iftakhar
want to talk india, i love to talk india. but, first the fact that they did not kill everyone does not mean i am wrong. that is like saying there were some jews left after hitler so to say hitler was a murdering scum - well that would be wrong. but i digress. lets talk india.
here is a outline of the love and peace showered on india by their peace loving islamic brothers. a good number of these accounts have come from the writings of ISLAMIC writers extoling the victory [?] over the lowly hindus:
the Islamic invasion actually attempted to decimate the Indian religions of Dharma and the Culture of Bhaaratvarsha, but they did not succeed.
(From the accounts of arikh-i-Yamini of Utbi the secretary of Mahmud of Gaznavi) talking about killing indians and battles.
At Thaneshwar.
"The blood of the infidels flowed so copiously at Thanesar that the stream was discolored, not withstanding its purity, and people were unable to drink it. The Sultan returned with plunder which is impossible to count. Praise be to Allah for the honor he bestows on Islam and Muslims."
At Somnath
"The Muslims paid no regard to the booty till they had satiated themselves with the slaughter of the infidels and worshipers of sun and fire.... The number of infidels killed exceeded 50,000"
At Mathura
"The infidels...deserted the fort and tried to cross the foaming river...but many of them were slain, taken or drowned... Nearly fifty thousand men were killed."
Mahmud of Ghori
(from Hasan Nizami's Taj-ul-Maasir) Kol (Modern Aligarh)
"Those of the horizon who were wise and acute were converted to Islam, but those who stood by their ancestoral faith were slain with the sword"
Kol (Modern Aligarh) 20,000 prisoners were taken and made slaves
'Three bastions were raised as high as heaven with their heads and their carcases became food for the beasts of prey
Kalinjar - 50,000 prisoners were taken as slaves
Varnasi or Kasi (Benaras) : Kamil-ut-Tawarikh of Ibn Asir records,
"The slaughter of Hindus (at Varanasi) was immense; none were spared except women and children,(who were taken into slavery) and the carnage of men went on until the earth was weary."
Sultan Firuz Shah Tughlaq
(from Insha-i-Mahry by Amud Din Abdullah bin Mahru)
Delhi: -a punishment in detail (from Tarikh-i-Firuz Shahi)
"A report was brought to the Sultan than there was in Delhi an old Brahman who persisted in publicly performing the worship of idols in his house and that people of the city, both Muslims and Hindus used to resort to his house to worship the idol. The Brahman had constructed a wooden tablet which was covered within and without with paintings of demons and other objects. An order was accordingly given to the Brahman and was brought before Sultan.The true faith was declared to the Brahman and the right course pointed out. but he refused to accept it. A pile was risen on which the Kaffir with his hands and legs tied was thrown into and the wooden tablet on the top. The pile was lit at two places his head and his feet. The fire first reached him in the feet and drew from him a cry and then fire completley enveloped him. Behold Sultan for his strict adherence to law and rectitude."
Delhi : (after Hindus paid the toleration tax (zar-i zimmiya) and poll-tax(jizya) they were foolish enough to build their temples.so...) "Under divine guidance I (Sultan) destroyed these temples and I killed the leaders of these infedility and others I subjected to stripes and chastisement "
Gohana (Haryana):
"Some Hindus had erected a new idol-temple in the village of Kohana and the idolaters used to assemble there and perform their idolatrous rites. These people were seized and brought before me. I ordered that the perverse conduct of these leaders of this wickedness be punished by publicly abd that they should be put to deathe before the gate of the palace."
Jajnagar:(Expedition objectives as stated by Sultan: Source:Ainn-ul-Mulk)
massacring the unbelievers, demolishing their temples, hunting the elephants, getting a glimpse of their enchanting country
I LOVE WHERE IN THE MIDST OF MURDER HE ACTUALLY TALKED ABOUT THE ENCHANTING COUNTRY - sort of nazi like isn't it.
Orissa:'Sirat-i-Firoz Shahi' records his expedition with the following words:
"Nearly 100,000 men of Jajnagar had taken refuge with their women, children, kinsmen and relations The swordsmen of Islam turned the island into a basin of blood by the massacre of the unbelievers. Women with babies and pregnant ladies were haltered, manacled, fettered and enchained, and pressed as slaves into service in the house of every soldier."
The Jihads of Shihabuddin,
the Sultankalka of Ghur
Around 1140, the Islamized Turko-Mongol chiefs of the Shansabanid tribe occupied Ghor in Afghanistan. Initially it was a vassal of the Ghaznavid Sultans, but around 1130 it came into conflict with them, after one of the leading Shansabanid nobles was murdered by the Ghaznavid Sultan, Bahram. A ferocious war ensued between the Sultans of Ghor and Ghazni, till Alla-ud-din Ghori invaded Ghazni with his entire cavalry and wrested it from Bahram. Alla-ud-din sacked the Indian spoils that Mahmud had placed there, massacred the city’s population in a 7-day killing spree and subsequently burnt it down. The next Ghaznavid Sultan, Khushro Maliq was driven out of Afghanistan by a coalition of Oghuz Turks and the Ghorids in 1157, and the Oghuz took Ghazni. The sons of Alla-ud-din, Ghiyas-ud-din Mu’azz-ud-din Ghori and Shihab-ud-din Muhammad Ghori defeated the Oghuz and annexed Ghazni in 1174. Ghiyas-ud-din, crowned himself Sultan, and appointed his brother Sultankalka. Shihab-ud-din was assigned the task of extending the kingdom to the East and he naturally gravitated towards India. 13 bloody campaigns that ravaged Northern India followed:
• Early in 1175 he invaded Punjab and sacked and burned Uch...(1)
• In 1178 he advanced south and marched towards Gujarat, but here the Indians acted quickly and rallying under the western chAlukya king MUlarAja II routed the Islamic forces completely forcing him to retreat...(2)
• In 1179 Ghori sent a message to PrithivirAja chAhamAna to make common cause with him against the Chalukyas. Prithivaraj however, wise disregarding his foolish minister, kadambavAsa’s advise to make a common cause with Ghori, preemptively attacked NaDDula and reconquered it from the Moslems.
• Shihab recovered in 1180 and invaded Sindh and ravaged the population carrying away much loot...(3)
• Then Shihabuddin Muhammad, quickly followed it up in 1181 and 1184 with two invasions of Lavapura (Lahore) accompanied with much slaughter...(4+5)
• In 1186 he invaded the Ghaznavid occupied Punjab and defeated the Sultan Khushro Maliq and wrested Punjab...(6)
• 1188 The Ghur Sultankalka invaded the ChAhamAna kingdom and sacked the fort of Tabarhindah killing the Hindu male populace and raping the women. Hindu refugees flocked around Delhi alarming the ChAhamAnas...(7)
• 1191 PrithivirAj advanced to meet Shihabuddin’s raid and routed him in the great battle of Tarai. While the Muslims suffered a crushing defeat, the Indians failed to butcher them to man and allowed Shihab to get away unharmed. He fled back to Central Asia leaving Punjab completely undefended...(8)
• 1191 PrithivirAj attacked Tabarhindah and took it back from the Muslims. Here the biggest mistake of the Hindus was not to reconquer and arm Punjab suitably.
• 1192 Shihab returned and sacked Tabarhindah again. This was followed by the second battle of Tarai, the ChAhamAna army was crushed and Prithiviraj was captured and brutally tortured to death...(9)
• 1192 the Ghur Sultankalka made a second trust towards Ajayamerupura (Ajmer) and sacked it smashing Hindu temples and a Hindu university in course of this invasion. The Hindus captured in this expedition caused slave prices to fall to a few Dirhams in the Muslim markets...(10)
• 1193 The sultankalka invaded Kannauj and slew the GAhadwala king Jayachandra. He followed this up with an invasion of vArANsipura slaughtering Hindus with great savagery and desecrating the holy city...(11+12)
After this, his viceroy Kutub-ud-din (also his lover?) and the Turkish adventurer Ikhtiyaruddin Khalji furthered the violence of Islam in the land of Hind. Meanwhile Shihab’s brother died in Ghazna and he crowned himself Sultan and immediately launched himself into another Jihad on the infidels of Hindustan in 1206. The exact course of this campaign is not clear. While on the North-western reaches of the Sindhu, he was ambushed by the Khokar chiefs and shot down by an arrow...(13). Thus ended the carrier of the Moslem brigand who brought misery to the whole of northern India through his 13 invasions.
Aurangazeb (1658 - 1707 )
Aurangzeb considered himself "The Scourge Of The Kafirs" (non-believers) and closed Hindu schools and libraries. In his lifetime he destroyed more than 10,000 Hindu, Buddhist and Jam temples and often erected mosques in their stead.3 In 1669 in Agra he had hacked off the limbs of the recalcitrant Hindu King Gokla and in 1672 several thousand revolting Hindus were slaughtered in Mewat.
From: Maasi-i-Alamgiri
Issued general order to destroy all centers of Hindu learnings including Varnasi and destroyed the temple at Mathura and renamed it as Islamabad
In Khandela (rajastan) he killed 300 Hindus in one day for they resisted the destruction of their temple.
In Udaipur all Hindus of the town were killed as they vowed to defend the temple of Udaipur from destruction.
172 temples were destroyed in Udaipur.
66 temples were pulled down in Amber. All Hindu clerks were dismissed from the office of the Imperial empire.
In Pandhpur , Maharashtra, the Emperor ordered and executed the destruction of temple and butchering of cows within the temple.
Aurangazeb also tortured to death the disciples of Guru Tegh bahadur before his death and also killed Guru. Guru Tegh Bahadur - the pride of Hindustan was martyred for he spoke for the persecuted Hindus of Hindustan. Aurangazeb also killed Guru Gobind singh's two children aged less than ten by walling them alive for not accepting the choice of Islam. In Punjab Muslim governors killed hundreds of Sikh children and made Sikh women eat the flesh of their own killed children. Banda Bahadur another great Sikh martyr before being torturd to death was also made to eat the flesh of his own children killed before his eyes. Any Muslim bringing the head of a dead Sikh was also awarded money
Zahiru'd-Din Muhammed Babur (1526 - 1520 )
Babur's Own Words on Killing Hindus:
For the sake of Islam I became a wanderer,
I battled infidels and Hindus,
I determined to become a maryr
Thank God I became a Killer of Non-Muslims!
From Baburnama, the Memoires of Babur Himself:
In AH 934 (1538 ) I attacked Chanderi and by the grace of Allah captured it in a few hours. We got the infidels slaughtered and the place which had be Daru'l-Harb (nation of non-muslim) for years was made into a Daru'l-Islam (muslim nation).
Guru Nanak on Babur's atrocities:
Source:Rag Asa Guru Nanak Dev witnessed first hand the atrocities Babur committed on Hindus and recorded them in his poems. He says: Having attacked Khuraasaan, Babar terrified Hindustan. The Creator Himself does not take the blame, but has sent the Mugal as the messenger of death. There was so much slaughter that the people screamed. Didn't You feel compassion, Lord? pg (360)
On the condition of Hindu women in Babur's monster rule:
Those heads adorned with braided hair, with their parts painted with vermillion - those heads were shaved with scissors, and their throats were choked with dust.They lived in palatial mansions, but now, they cannot even sit near the palaces.... ropes were put around their necks, and their strings of pearls were broken. Their wealth and youthful beauty, which gave them so much pleasure, have now become their enemies. The order was given to the soldiers, who dishonored them, and carried them away. If it is pleasing to God's Will, He bestows greatness; if is pleases His Will, He bestows punishment pg(417-18)
On the nature of Mughal rule under Babur:
First, the tree puts down its roots, and then it spreads out its shade above. The kings are tigers, and their officials are dogs; they go out and awaken the sleeping people to harass them. The public servants inflict wounds with their nails. The dogs lick up the blood that is spilled. Source:Rag Malar, (pg.1288)
From an article by Dr. Harsh Narain on Muslim Testimony (Indian Express 2/26/90):
Since the establishment of Zahiru'd-Din Ghazi's rule, officers and religious leaders spread Islam vigorously desteroying the Hindu faith. We cleared the filth of Hinduism from Faizabad and Avadh.
Jahangir (1605 - 1628)
Source: Tuzuk-i-Jahangiri
Though in the beginning of his rule Jahangir followed the humanistic rule of his father Akbar the great -the policy of sulehkul even issued a proclamation against the forcible conversion of Hindus to Islam, he revoked Akbar's orders that those who have been forcibly converted from Islam could return to Hinduism. He severely punished Kaukab, Sharif and Abdul Latif for showing inclination to Hinduism. He also prohibited the free inter-marriage customs between Hindus and Muslims in Kashmir. Hindus marrying Muslim girls and those who had already married were given a hoice between Islam and death. Many were killed.
Jahangir's torture of Guru Arjun Dev ji: Guru was imprisoned at Lahore fort. He was chained to a post in an open place exposed to the sun from morning to evening in the summer months of May to June. Below his feet a heap of sand was put which burnt like a furnace. Boiling water was poured on his naked body at intervals. His body was covered with blisters all over. In this agony Guru used to utter.
Tera Kiya Metha lage, naam padarath Nanak mange(whatever you ordain appears sweet. I supplicate for the gift of name)
The Guru was ordercd to be executed. In addition a fine of Rupees two lakhs was imposed on him. Some historians say that, as a measure of clemency at the intervention of Mian Mir, this fine was imposed in lieu of the sentence of death. The Sikhs offered to pay the fine themselves but the Guru forbade them to do so. He replied to the Emperor, "Whatever money I have is for the poor, the friendless and the stranger. If thou ask for money thou mayest take what I have; but if thou ask for it by way of fine, I shall not give thee even a Kaurz (penny)." The Guru accepted death by torture.
Shah Jahan (1658 - 1707)
In 1632 Shah jahan ordered that all Hindu temples recently erected or in the course of construction should be razed to the ground. In Benares alone seventy six temples were destroyed. Christian churches at Agra and Lahore were demolished. In a manner befitting the Prophet he had ten thousand inhabitants executed by being "blown up with powder, drowned in water or burnt by fire". Four thousand were taken captive to Agra where they were tortured to try to convert them to Islam. Only a few apostacised, the remainder were trampled to death by elephants, except for the younger women who went to harems.
Shahjahan put enormous eonomic pressure on Hindus particularly peasents to become Muslims. The criminals too were forced to become Muslims.
Source: Badshah Nama, Qazinivi & Badshah Nama , Lahori
When Shuja was appointed as governor of Kabul he carried on a ruthless war in the Hindu territory beyond Indus...The sword of Islam yielded a rich crop of converts....Most of the women (to save their honour) burnt themselves to death. Those captured were distributed among Muslim Mansabdars.
Source: Manucci, Storia do Mogor vol-II p.451 & Travels of Frey Sebastian Manrique
Under Shahjahan peasents were compelled to sell their women and children to meet their revenue requirements....The peasents were carried off to various Markets and fairs to be sold with their poor unhappy wives carrying their small children crying and lamenting. According to Qaznivi Shahjagan had decreed they should be sold to Muslim lords.
YOU CANT DENY ISLAMIC HISTORY SO WHY DO YOU KEEP TRYING?
April 24, 2007 8:55 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 24, 2007 08:55
Pamela, Thank you for responding to posts on your thread. My question for you is:
What has happened to PBS "Islam vs. Islamists"?
April 24, 2007 8:32 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 24, 2007 08:32
As a former Muslim I have no hesitation is stating that Islam is a violent faith founded by a violent man, Muhammad. To deny that Muhammad was a violent man and that he founded a violent cult is to deny the truth. One merely has to review Muslim books, books accepted by Muslims as authentic to understand Muhammad's violent nature. His orders to murder an innocent and unarmed poetess, Asma bint Marwan whose only crime was to criticise the Meccans for having accommodated Muhammad are proof of his ruthlessness. There is no denying that Christians have been just as violent but one cannot accuse Jesus of having been a violent man who killed and advocated killing. By the way I am not a Christian and never will be.
April 24, 2007 7:51 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 24, 2007 07:51
Just came across this site and thought I would drop in a question.
When anybody speaks ill about the self proclaimed prophet Mo why is that person targetted/put to death? who has enacted such a law? Is'nt God more superior than Mo.
It is easier for a Muslim to criticize every other faith but when you retaliate they are ready to eat you alive. tell me about it, I live in a muslim country and feel the vibes and seen the fear of most minorities.
April 24, 2007 5:42 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 24, 2007 05:42
Violence is always the result of out of control human emotions that for what ever reason come to a boiling point whenever they have been suppressed too long. In the case of Islam it is obvious that people are being suppressed and enslaved in the name of religion which was also the case with Christianity. It started with Judaism which resulted into Christianity. The acts of Catholics caused the revolt and give us all the fractions within the body of Christ we see today.
The problem with Islam is that people are using the religion to further their political agenda called political Islam and it is the brain child of one man much the same way as Marxism was the brain child of just one man full of hatred and envy. Muslims do not want to separate from their religion in the fashion that people in the West bash and trash theirs that’s why it is such a toxic mix. The biggest problem is that the fundies learn from their counter part in the West how to play the game and terrorize people to get what they want, power at all cost. One factor that many people seem to neglect instead they point the finger at religion and religion alone.....to admit that there is more to the story they would have to see themselves as part of the problem....but knowing human beings that will never happen because it is always easier to blame some body else.
April 24, 2007 4:02 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 24, 2007 04:02
DEB CHATERJEE,
Should your Jaziya be accepted as the motivation for low conversion,then all the muslim scholars who came to India from central asia and persia and many hindus converted voluntarily to Islam would have been not allowed to live in India for fear of losing Jiziya
April 24, 2007 2:27 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 24, 2007 02:27
Iftakhar Mailk wrote:
"...the muslim mughal empire which ruled India for 200 plus years would have either killed or forced to conversion all hindus ..."
They sure could have but they did not because of a very special reason. This is documented in one of the memoirs of Alauddin Khilji.
The reason is that rule of Islam enforces the jiziya (extra protection tax) on kafir infidels [in this case pagan Hindus] according to Quran [009:029]. Thus, the Muslim/Mughal rulers quickly realized that if they forcibly converted all Hindus to Islam, they would not be able to generate the extra revenue for their coffers, because a large majority would then be converted Muslims on whom jiziya cannot be enforced. It was this practicval wisdom that they kept the conversion low. It was strictly a matter of money which they understood well. The Mughal rulers were not benign towards Hindus by any stretch of imagination.
April 24, 2007 2:10 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 24, 2007 02:10
Jihadist, where are you? Missing you here against these same nuts.
April 24, 2007 2:05 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 24, 2007 02:05
FRANK,
Should your argument about Quran encouraging hate and killing be given any merit,the muslim mughal empire which ruled India for 200 plus years would have either killed or forced to conversion all hindus and like wise for jews and christians under Ottoman Turkish which ruled for 500 years.
The islands of indonesia and malaysia do not show in history books any invading muslim armies.
The followers of Hitler were not muslims or did they follow Quran to kill allied countries christians and jews.
You should read history to find muslims of yesterday by following Quran initiated the begining of industrial revolution.
But then you are so blinded with your agenda against Islam that you just do not get it.
April 24, 2007 1:51 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 24, 2007 01:51
DEB CHATERJEE,
IT IS VERY SAD WHEN FLAG BEARERS OF ISRAEL AND INDIA GIVE SELF SERVING ARGUMENT TO DENY THE BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS TO MUSLIMS TO LIVE WITH DIGNITY AS INDEPENDENT NATION WHEN SEVERAL UNITED NATION'S RESOLUTION ARE ON RECORD TO HOLD PLEBISCITE(AGREED BY INDIA) GOING BACK 58 YEARS AND GOING BACK TO BORDERS BEFORE 1967 WAR BY ISRAEL.
THE TERRORISM STARTED IN 1948 WHEN FEW EXTERMIST JEWISH EUROPEANS ATTACKED THE PALESTINIAN TERRITORIES AND SCARED THE PALESTINIAN POPULATION TO LEAVE THEIR HOMELANDS IN FEAR FOR LIFE AND THE ISRAEL FOR JEWS AT THE EXPENSE OF PALESTINIANS CAME INTO EXISTENSE QUITE CONTRARY TO SILLY ARGUMENT ABOUT MADINAH WHEN MUSLIMS MADE AGREEMENT WITH JEWS TO LIVE IN DIGNITY UNTIL THEY WERE CAUGHT MAKING DEALS WITH MAKKANS TO DESTROY MUSLIMS.
HAMAS WAS CREATED BY ISRAELIS TO COUNTER PLO AND JIHADIST AND EXTREME IDEOLOGY(WAHIBISM) WERE FORMED TO FIGHT PROXY WAR FOR THE WEST AGAINST COMMUNISM AND SOVIET UNION.
IT IS IRONIC WHEN FEW MUSLIMS START ARM STRUGGLE AGAINST THE MIGHTY ARMIES OF ISRAEL AND INDIA AFTER EXPIRING PEACEFUL MEANS TO THE RESOLUTION OF THEIR RIGHTS ARE ACCUSED OF TERRORISM BUT KILLING OF STONE THROWERS AND PEACEFUL PROTESTS IS CONSIDERED SELF DEFENSE BY THE STATE.
PLEASE READ YOU STATEMENT MAHARAJA SIGNED THE INSTRUMENT TO JOIN THE SO CALLED SECULAR INDIA NOT THE MAJORITY MUSLIM POPULATION AND IF IT WAS NOT FOR UN RESOLUTION TO STOP THE WAR THE OTHER HALF OF KASHMIR WOULD HAVE BEEN INDEPENDENT AS THE ALWAYS GULLIBLE MUSLIMS BELIEVED IN THE FAIRNESS OF THEIR NON MUSLIM NATIONS.
LAST SIXTY YEARS HAVE PROVEN THAT THERE IS NO JUSTICE AWARDED TO WEAK SPECIALLY MUSLIMS UNLESS IT IS TAKEN BY FORCE AND HENCE THE TURMOIL IN THE WORLD UNLESS RESOLUTION IS MADE ON PRINCIPLE OF FAIRNESS.
MY APOLIGIES IN ALL CAPS AS IT IS A LAZY HABIT AND DO NOT MEAN TO OFFEND INTERNET MANNERS.
April 24, 2007 1:29 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 24, 2007 01:29
i love islamics lying about how peaceful their religion is. islam in not compatable with anything dealing with democracy, its closer to nazism than anything else, especially in their hate for jews. except islam predated hitler by 1400 years when moho said dont take jews and christians and hindu's as friends, or work with them, and oh yea, if they dont convert - kill them.
so quit lying. not only does the koran demand hate and murder, and for the last 1400 years, they have engaged in what the koran demands, hae and murder.
April 24, 2007 12:56 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 24, 2007 00:56
praise the paper reduction act.
after moma clean you good and dress you to go to the school of dialogueing ,do not forget to bring your text book if not at least your reson book if not at least donot forget the golden arm and hammer rule of mom do -not liter-be environement friendly ,save the planet earth,if you donot have something positive to say remain silent more power for the planet earth.I LOVE MOMA.ALL PRAISE GOES TO THE CREATOR OF MOMA.
April 24, 2007 12:50 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 24, 2007 00:50
Iftakhar Malik wrote:
"The Palestinians and Kashmiris are being subjected to suffering and oppression for last 60 years by Israelis(Jews) and Indians(predominantly Hindus) for want of independent Homeland."
That is a baloney. In both cases, Muslims want to form their own Islamic state. In both cases they are funded for their Jihad in the cause of Allah (terrorism) by Iran, Syria (Palestine) and Pakistan (Kashmir). These cowards don't have the guts to fight an army openly but prey on the unarmed men, women and children.
In the case of Israel, the Hamas and Islamic Jihad stated that they want Israel to cease from the map. This can be "peacefully" achieved if Jews move out of Israel. However, if Hamas can lay claim to Israel as their ancestral land, then Jews should also claim back Madinah because the Quran has records that Jews origibally lived there till they were forced into conversion or finally had been exiled or killed by Prophet Muhammad. So will Muslim community agree to a land exchange for Israel vs. Madinah ?
In the case of Kashmir, it is a terrorist strategy started by Amanullah Khan (head honcho of Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front - JKLF) since 1989. The separatist movement has its roots in the creation of an Islamic state because majority of the Muslim population in Kashmir are Muslims. India did not take away Kashmir. Maharaja Hari Singh, fearing attacks by Pakistani terrorists, signed the Instrument of Accession Act in 1950s to join India. That is recorded in the UN. Thus, if a state joins secular India, how can India agree to secession based on religious identity ?
Its plain stupid to make such a claim on Kashmir based on religious grounds.
April 24, 2007 12:27 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 24, 2007 00:27
Pamela - that Counterpunch article is bunk. Who did the Bali, Casablanca, Bombay, Madrid, London, and WTC bombings?
April 24, 2007 12:17 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 24, 2007 00:17
Pamela wrote:
"What I am doing on this forum is offerring my opinion. My thoughts. Not the thoughts of al-Qaeda members, or Iraqis engaged in the war, or Sudanes jangaweed murders, of anyone else in the entire world, but my own personal understanding of Islam. I do no believe, like you, that Islam is evil or violent. That is not hypocricy. I would not have converted if I thought Islam was violent or evil. (Duh.) So naturally, I am going to eludidate my (positive) understanding of Islam."
Many women I know have converted only to find out for themselves, but alas firsthand, that indeed:
(a) Islam is a violent, intolerant religion hostile towards other ancient (pre-Islamic) systems and cultures;
(b) Islam treats women as sex objects and the husband is the boss who is technically allowed to beat her up and honor killings (of women) are appreciated by some Islamic countries (Jordan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Egypt, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq etc. and etc.) to preserve the high respect for women in Muslim societies;
(c) Islam does not allow conversion out of islam, and would declare that as apostacy punishable by death [Quran(005:033)].
Given these three holy attributes of the world's fastest growing religion, the Muslim women are shackled and kept under the dark veil as some fancy-dressed Fatimah in a dress rehearsal. The women are afraid to speak up for fear of losing their lives.
In west, women like yourself, present the most ambiguous alternative. You opine, talk freely (Fee Speech), mix amongst men, dominate and don't support polygamy - that is sanctioned by the Quran. But to us, the despicable pagan polytheists (Hindus/Buddhists), who happen know a larger part of the Islamic bloc than what we are told by some babbling academic (such as John L. Esposito), we feel that you westernized men and women are simply misleading with compulsive deception. All that you folks can do by staying within America is to exercise your Free Speech by condemning what you think is wrong about Islam. (Your posts are an excellent example for that.) You surely don't speak for the larger part of the Islamic world which is outside USA and is inherently hostile to the US ways and values. When you don't speak for the larger part, you must learn to accept that living in the ivory tower of Islamic castle is not the fair representation of reality regarding the Islamic world. In the other parts of the world, regarding which we have some more knowledge than you, Islam is most certainly NOT what we know from you. (It is like listening to a happy/well-heeled tourist about a country, and comparing that to from a person who has lived there earning a living. Which one would be more credible ?)
We can always cite independently verifiable instances to support our views. We know that in many of these outrageous cases, the Muslim ummah has justified the barbarism by quoting from the precedents of the Islamic jurisprudence (from Salafi school), and thus preventing one from arguing with religion, because in the West and secular world religion is held private like sex. (Britain is an example where radical Muslims have taken the entire Muslim community there by storm. See some recent documentaries by CNN's Christian Amanpour and how the Finnsbury mosque is generating radicals.)
Thus, I am not satisfied because I think you are just compulsively misleading. Our diatribes, anger are all directed at the fact that Islam is indeed a violent and vicious religion. It is quite a travesty of justice that whenever anything violent is cited the so-called "moderates" like yourself come out by stating that "words from Quran are taken out of context and hence Islam is defiled buy a kafir (non-believer)" or that "Islam is no worse" (which it indeed is), and that (as a last resort) "Muslims have rights to practice their religion" or that "antiquated/obscurantist quotes from fundamentalists are irrelevant" etc. and etc.
In the process it is ignored that in a multipolar world all aspects need to be considered. If the world has indeed been transformed into a global village, then no one is above common norms. If Islam, of which both Pamela K. Anderson (liberal, secular, modern Muslim with the hijab) and Osama bin Laden (kafir-blood seeking cave-dwelling radical Muslim)are parts and claim equal share of Allah's bounty, can blame others then it must be prepared to take heat from others (non-Islamic) regarding its self-styled hedonism based on contempt for others (aka dar-al-harb).
Unfortunately Islam declares that all things un-Islamic (kufr) is to be eliminated, and that peaceful co-existence with kufr is not a part of its divine agenda.
Judging by the above, Islam in my view reprsents the rigor mortis of a troglodyte civilization. The only way the problem can be kept from growing out of hand is to be vigilant and defensive. That is within the rights of secular, westernized countries.
April 24, 2007 12:15 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 24, 2007 00:15
Islam is a way of life represented through teachings of Quran if followed through the letter and spirit.
Quran provides democracy,economic system,protection of weak in the society including orphans,respect of rights of religious minorities,rules of war in self defense and most importantly spiritual cleanness to be close to human beings creator GOD ALMIGHTY.
This is the message which the last prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) of GOD ALMIGHTY conveyed and has been evergrowing in numbers despite the action of very few mislead so-called muslims.
The Quran clearly states that there is no compulsion in religion,the message of Quran is for whole mankind and GOD ALMIGHTY clearly states that human beings are at loss should they not follow the message of Quran.
It is sad to see how the vested interest of non muslims and muslims have exploited the religion of ISLAM and then mislead the faithful to their political and economic gains.
The muslim countries rulers in the past 50 years are never serious to adopt Islamic way of life because golden rules of fairness and justice would be first applied to themselves.
The government of these rulers are bought and paid for and are manipulated by the Western powers to maintain their economic control.
The present situation in the world of chaos and killing of the innocent is the direct reaction of the few who are manipulated by the political forces and are using ISLAM to secure anger among muslims to harm non-muslims and muslims.
The SUNNIS and SHIAS were living in harmony for the more than 1000 years in all muslim countries contrary to the prevailing impression.
The rift has been created between SUNNIS and SHIAS starting with Iran/Iraq war,Afghanistan internal conflict between Taliban(Sunnis) and Northern Forces(Shias) and now Iraq by asking Shias to help remove Saddam regime (supported by the WEST in arms including chemical weapons against Iran) and then supporting Lebanese Sunni government against Hazbollah (shias).
The people of Timore(the christian faith) looking for independence from Indonesia were granted by the brokering powers at U.N. in few years.
The Palestinians and Kashmiris are being subjected to suffering and oppression for last 60 years by Israelis(Jews) and Indians(predominantly Hindus) for want of independent Homeland.
The number of killings of Palestinians and Kashmiris far out numbers killing by the terrorising muslims BUT is state sponsored and I guess can be justified and Judiaism and Hinduism cannot be blamed.
The franks,perot,brian mcc,jbe,deb chatterjee,concerned christian but liberated and homer find their right to disparage the sentiments of Billion muslims by their derogatory remarks about Mohammad (peace be upon him)(and expecting any muslim to respond similarly which will never happen as muslims have utmost regard for all prophets)and find the reaction of few muslims retaliating against the injustice as terrorism and start to find fault with Islam and Quran.
I do not find them to come and defend the rights of their fellow human beings Palestinians and Kashmiris and attack on a soveriegn country Iraq as they profess in their comments to be humantarians seeking fairness and truth.
I assume that they do not have sense of fairness
in their souls to stand for justice and just have as much hate in their souls and should I assume are agents of OPPRESSORS to spread hate and division among fellow human beings no better than the few politically mislead killers professing to be muslims.
The conversion to Islam like by Pamela will continue till the day of judgement as teachings of ISLAM help the thoughtful and truth seeking CREATION find its CREATOR GOD ALMIGHTY and ultimately the goal of serenity and peace of body and soul.
April 23, 2007 11:51 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 23, 2007 23:51
what is the matter dan, cant handly one year of islamic terror? that is called spam? we can put on a lot more than that. here are a few of the acts leading up to the crusades. islam is hate and nothing more. it demands hate and murder and islamics live up to it daily. they kill for no other reason except that the person they are murdering is not islamic, but that is exactly what the koran demands. but back to the crusades. here are a few things happy time peaceful islam did prior to the crusades. but you islamics will come up with an excuse.
The first Crusade began in 1095… 460 years after the first Christian city was overrun by Muslim armies, 457 years after Jerusalem was conquered by Muslim armies, 453 years after Egypt was taken by Muslim armies, 443 after Muslims first plundered Italy, 427 years after Muslim armies first laid siege to the Christian capital of Constantinople, 380 years after Spain was conquered by Muslim armies, 363 years after France was first attacked by Muslim armies, 249 years after Rome itself was sacked by a Muslim army, and only after centuries of church burnings, killings, enslavement and forced conversions of Christians.
oh its great to be islamic - you lie about being a religion of peace while you hate and murder your way across the world.
April 23, 2007 11:40 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 23, 2007 23:40
Hello Sister and Brothers et al & beyond:
"IF YOU SEE SOMETHING, Say Something, dial 911. 411, 19 etc...
interesting P.A.t.t.e.R.N..
The Eclati-ons know of the "Insight and recognition Powers" in most Ear or Eye communicado.
Yes, Sister Pamela et al,
".... Stupid sentiment..." is wise ..... : =) ya.
April 23, 2007 11:27 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 23, 2007 23:27
For whomever said that all the terrorists today are Muslims, I refer (again) to the article that came out two days ago outlining Europol's report that of 436 terrorist attacks carried out in Europe last year, only 1 was perpetrated by Muslims. Your statement about all terrorists are Muslim is just false, and badly so.
However, I can understand why you might have come to this conclusion since there is at least an American media blackout about other terrorist attacks -- such as the destruction of the Madrid airport parking garage, and the attacks on the American embassy in Greece just a couple months ago.
For those interested you can read the article here:
http://www.counterpunch.org/larsson04212007.html
Pamela
PS Please note, this comment does not mean I think Muslim don't have to deal with terrorists in our midst. We do. But misinformation and islamophobia will not help us do so, rather it will give "the enemy" greater ease in recruiting members as they can point to the scapegoating and unfair treatment of Muslims as proof that America is out to get Muslims. A stupid sentiment, in my opinion, but one which plays well overseas, especially when we Americans play into.
April 23, 2007 11:12 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 23, 2007 23:12
Gandalf
Thanks again for sharing that quotation.
WaPo & Everybody
How about limiting the length of posts? Or a moratorium on all this copying and pasting?
April 23, 2007 10:31 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 23, 2007 22:31
At least 85,000 thousand Americans were murdered by other Americans since 9/11, including the recent murderous spree at Virginia Tech. This is more people dead than any terrorist or insurgent group killed globally, except for Iraq's civil war.
Are we violent because we have easier access to guns, or, because of religion? Remember, guns don't kill in these good old US of A.
April 23, 2007 10:16 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 23, 2007 22:16
can someone really be as stupid as this collins guy?
the real question is:
is democracy a violent religion? and the answer is....................... hell yes
April 23, 2007 9:43 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 23, 2007 21:43
HE HE HITLER WAS HALF JEW AND HALF CHRISTIAN....
BOMB ATOMIC WAS MADE BY A JEW AND DROPED BY CHRISTIANS ...(japan) ,excus, to stop more killings...
Pamela k, is telling what is in curan...and the right to difend you land familly dignetty.....
some times people get kild ,its sad, yes, but ,the worst is the atakar not the difender???
how can some one difend him sel from all this cand of wappens that the west have how can you escape frome all that raders F16 ....
The yong mohamed in irak lost hall his familly att diner table 12 members and he lost bowth legs and bowthe armes...in his home, not at work or en bus...
The other young Mohamed died in his faders armes in palestin...
In muslim TV you see only death blood FBI CIA THREATS ...ofcoures and the robery, stilling ...KILLING AND SINING DOCOMENTs FOR THE NEXT ROBERY AND now the west wants to change war roules ,you now,i choot you in your contry in your home and take your sister too BUT you muslim dont think about toching me because FBI have ,D... god knows what....bla bla bla
Maaan how can the west tel to Iranienes that they can or dont have the right to have a driving licence because you might drink and drive or you can have one but you cant drive because you might drink alkohhol (neucler tecnologie) when the west are drinking and driving all the time and Isreal drive without driving licence b (bomb a)
i dont take drogs can any one pleas explain to me why muslime cant have the right to D to drive and muslimes dont drink ???
sorry sorry ,,,its againstyour interest orsecurity bla bla boolchit...
you just dont want muslimes to have normal life and a real dimocracy tecnologey mony most of all PEACE
peace peace ,muslimes will give you OIL very very cheap (if you are poor) just ask ....
like we ask for every thing and we pay all you say for muslim to drink coca cola needs to work few oures extra ...chime on you
the west the Jews and some Muslimes need to wekup and have a look at the reallity because
without Muslimes Africans asia indiens the west christians ......the planet will not function just like animals with out diferent cand of animals the forest will not survive .Africa is diying, muslimes are sufering ,the west lost ther minds, asia is dreaming....
PEACE B AND SISTERS W ARE ALL ONE FAMILLY AND TOGETHER WE CAN MAKEIT AND WE CAN HELPE THE ONE WHO NEEDS US THATS HOW IT CHOULD BE
April 23, 2007 9:22 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 23, 2007 21:22
The following are lyrics from a song entitled'Boom'.
step on the bus, yeah boom boom boom
mideast eye for eye boom boom boom
a chosen one they go down
3 others donn deaths crown
crusade christians, insurge militias
you know my God he's better than yours
in the holy land... I cannot live with ya
get up draw the shades and close the door
in the land of the prime time boom boom boom
at 6 the news crew boom boom boom
no APR save a dime
hit the 'mute' don't miss that chew
woke up 9/11...innocent they died
our sponsor in heaven, hears both sides cried
crusade christians, insurge militias
you know my God he's better than yours
in the holy land I want to live with ya
get up draw the shades and open the door
April 23, 2007 8:57 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 23, 2007 20:57
Here's the problem, my dear woman.
Today all terrorists are Muslim. Yes, it was once that they wqere all christians, but that DOES NOT NEGATE THE NEED FOR MODERATE MUSLIMS TO TURN THEIR ANGER AT BEING CONSIDERED MONOLITHIC JIHADISTS AT THOSE VIOLENT UN-ISLAMIC MURDERERS AND KILLERS OF CIVILLIANS.
I call upon you to denounce violence in all of its forms DAILY.
If you love Islam, it is the only thing you can do to represent that Islam in NOT a faith of violence. Speaking it once - or a hundred times - is not enough. Because of the way the world is in the 21st century you and your bretheren MUST denounce violence EVERY time until those in your community who commit violence on civillians are roundly rejected in speech, and in deeds around the Islamic world as traitors to the beautiful and peaceful faith of Islam.
They are idiots destroying the good name of the Prophet.
April 23, 2007 4:54 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 23, 2007 16:54
It is so interesting to come into this forum as a stranger and observe the anger and hatred that exists here. The root causes of violence are human anger, hatred, and most often fear.
Violence within Islam today is not caused by this often misunderstood and misinterpreted religion, but rather by political and economic unrest in the regions where Islam is predominant. I cannot even begin to claim that I have even the most remote grasp of what has spurred this violence, but I do know, from my short years spent on this planet that humans are violent creatures. Religion can be warped to justify violence of all sorts.
While we are speaking historically, let us not forget the history of the Americas. The Spanish conquest, in the name of Catholicism, killed and converted the native populations until almost nothing was left. The economic gains and desires of the Spanish were easily twisted and translated into a religious mission, with god leading the way. During the years that this took place, a list like that presented here earlier would pale in comparison the lost lives of this conquest.
If some of us choose to justify the crusades by listing the prior offenses of Muslims, then you might consider asking yourself what native American populations did to deserve the devastation of the Spanish conguest.
And this is only one isolated example of how humans can twist religion into a justification for violence. We all know that there are so many more. At this current point in time, we are confronted with Islam as our scapegoat for a problem that is spurred on my injustice and hatred, not religios belief.
It really saddens me to see that so many people, including those posting to this site, can foster attitudes of anger, hatred, and fear toward an entire people whose religious beliefs are not predominantly violent in nature.
We may not all be able to understand one another, but as an Irish-American Catholic, I for one would like us to try. At the very least we should wish one another peace, and engage in civil discussions that tend toward enlightenment, and not ignorance; peace and not hate.
April 23, 2007 4:12 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 23, 2007 16:12
Homer, I just wanted to pont out that there are two comments threads on this post. One here as featured response and one under all panelists. I don't think your comment was deleted, rather it is under that other listing. Further, I have no control over anything that is posted on the comments threads, that power lies with the moderators of the forum, or the Washington Post/Newsweek web handlers.
Deb, the history of Islam in not particularly bloodier than the history of any group of people. And, in fact, most of the current Muslim world came to be Muslim through cultural contact, not forced conversion.
What I am doing on this forum is offerring my opinion. My thoughts. Not the thoughts of al-Qaeda members, or Iraqis engaged in the war, or Sudanes jangaweed murders, of anyone else in the entire world, but my own personal understanding of Islam. I do no believe, like you, that Islam is evil or violent. That is not hypocricy. I would not have converted if I thought Islam was violent or evil. (Duh.) So naturally, I am going to eludidate my (positive) understanding of Islam.
I do have plenty of criticism of other interpretations of Islam (please note this paragraph which I reproduce from an admittedly long posting: Of course, as with any religion, or even atheism for that matter, those who wish to wage war, will find texts in the tradition that they can abuse and distort to support their cause. This is what Osama Bin Laden does when he calls for international jihad. This is what Yusuf Qaradawi does when he supports Palestinian suicide bombers. This is the fatal mistake made by Syed Qutb and Maududi who promoted the notion that there is a realm of peace and a realm of war, and that Islam had to be spread by whatever means necessary. These people ignore(d) fundamental Islamic principles in order to justify their own teaching and/or acts of hatred and violence.)
I did not blame the media, nor America. I blamed Muslims and their skewed (as I understand it) interpretations. Sorry if that is not good enough for you.
April 23, 2007 4:00 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 23, 2007 16:00
Pamela:
Your tireless (quixotic) attempt to paint the bloody history of Islam (begining with Prophet Muhammad) as a religion of peace is ludicrous and borders hypocrisy. You just ignore the obvious and blame the American meedia.
I am begining to believe that there is nothing called "moderate Muslim"; all Muslims are closet fundamentalists, including yourself.
April 23, 2007 3:27 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 23, 2007 15:27
Ok, let start cleansing/updating the Koran: (something long overdue and therefore worth repeating on other commentary pages)
"The 77 Branches of Faith is a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true faith (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings."
i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.
"30 qualities are connected to the heart"
(five at a time)
"1. Belief in Allah"
No problem but "aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added
"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."
No problem but evolution and the Big Bang cannot be ignored and the "akas" for Allah should be included.
"3. To believe in the existence of angels."
A major item to delete. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain natural events,contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.
"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."
Another major item to delete. There are no books written in Heaven just as there are no angels to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.
Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.
Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.
"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."
Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via an "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.
And I just love being in a country where I can list these important items for world peace without the fear of Islamic death squads.
April 23, 2007 3:13 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 23, 2007 15:13
Well, Islam was showned in the History how peacefull it is. The same attitude is today even we want to accept it or not. IT IS THE faith OF SWORD. In Middle East the majority of the people before 622 AD were Christians, what happen to them ? What about the dead city in Cairo ?
What about Filipines ? Indonesia. Bosnia, Albania, etc. Were the Christian those who started the wars ?. The Muslim pretended more they deserved in the name of Allah. I grew up in Easter Europe. Most of theose countries were occupaied including Greece by Muslim, why ? because they were the followers of peace in the name of Allah ?
History in the past , present and in the future don't lie, you do in the name oif Allah.
YOUR ACTION SPEAKS LOUDER THAN WORDS !!!!!
Islam is not a religion IT IS A PAGAN CULT. Sink that in you mind.
April 23, 2007 2:51 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 23, 2007 14:51
Well, Islam was showned in the History how peacefull it is. The same attitude is today even we want to accept it or not. IT IS THE faith OF SWORD. In Middle East the majority of the people before 622 AD were Christians, what happen to them ? What about the dead city in Cairo ?
What about Filipines ? Indonesia. Bosnia, Albania, etc. Were the Christian those who started the wars ?. The Muslim pretended more they deserved in the name of Allah. I grew up in Easter Europe. Most of theose countries were occupaied including Greece by Muslim, why ? because they were the followers of peace in the name of Allah ?
History in the past , present and in the future don't lie, you do in the name oif Allah.
YOUR ACTION SPEAKS LOUDER THAN WORDS !!!!!
Islam is not a religion IT IS A PAGAN CULT. Sink that in you mind.
April 23, 2007 2:49 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 23, 2007 14:49
I apologize in advance for posting this on multiple forums!
Swami Vivekanand was a prominent and respected spiritual leader of the philosophies in India. This is an excerpt of his talk delievered at the World's Parilament of Religions in 1893 in Chicago. I thought this would be an appropriate place to "copy-paste" this part of his talk, considering all the fighting and vitriol being hurled at "other" religions.
"Much has been said of the common ground of religious unity...() But if any one here hopes that this unity will come by the triumph of any one of the religions and the destruction of the others, to him I say, “Brother, yours is an impossible hope.” Do I wish that the Christian would become Hindu or Buddhist? God forbid. Do I wish that the Hindu or Buddhist would become Christian? God forbid. But each must assimilate the spirit of the others and yet preserve his individuality and grow according to his own law of growth...()
If the Parliament of Religions has shown anything to the world it is this: It has proved to the world that holiness, purity and charity are not the exclusive possessions of any church in the world, and that every system has produced men and women of the most exalted character. In the face of this evidence, if anybody dreams of the exclusive survival of his own religion and the destruction of the others, I pity him from the bottom of my heart, and point out to him that upon the banner of every religion will soon be written, in spite of resistance: "Help and not Fight," "Assimilation and not Destruction," "Harmony and Peace and not Dissension.""
This is what Swami Vivekanand had to say over a hundred years ago and it cannot be any more appropriate than in today's world. TOLERANCE is the need of the hour for everyone. Possibly there are flaws in every religion, but only AS IT IS FOLLOWED TODAY. Does it mean that that was what the religion was really about? Was what we see today THE CENTRAL TENET of the religion when it originated? Maybe not! If there appears to be a disconnect, could it not mean mis-interpretation by a select few, over-interpretation (sometimes deliberate) by some opportunistic few?
And there is a difference between religious/spiritual practices and social/cultural practices. A lack of understanding of the difference between the two makes us wrongly label religions are being responsible for the wrong-doings of the people "following" those teachings!
Learn from other religions whatever you can and try to improve your own life. Meaningless bickering leads nowhere...
April 23, 2007 2:34 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 23, 2007 14:34
Repeat:
When you talk of Ramayana. You basically going back nearly 10,000 years.
The battle is to establish Dharrna. The rule of law, for human race.
Rama never robbed the people or started any war to enrich himself. It is part of history of the Aryan or first human race. It never says that if you don’t believe in me you will go to hell or force people to convert.
“Think about the 2000 Muslim killed in Gujarat?” I would say think about the people burned alive by the Moslems, women and children. The train doors locked from the outside. Do you expect people to stay calm. Moslems have killed, raped, sold men and women in slavery; millions of Hindu over the past 1000 years. Have the Hindu declared Holly war on Islam or marched on Mecca or taken revenge? It is the Moslems who marched into India to impose their barbaric culture . Read some books on the conquest of the Sind.
When did the Moslems become protector of the Sikhs? Think of how many Sikhs were butchered in Partition of India and how many women raped by the Moslem. Social problem will always be there. Hindu and Sikhs pray[even today] at each other places of worship. They have a Sikh PM and head of the arms forces; President who is Moslem and Christian as the head of the Congress party. What has Islam has to answer. Oh yes! Convert or kill the minorties.
. You Moslem cannot tolerate one another. How can you point a finger at a society that is willing to be faire to the minority! Any example in the Moslem’s world? No! Unlike Sunni and Shiite who butchering each other for the last 1000 year and it seems nothing has changed.
Tamil tigers? You should also include IRA. The big difference is; they are fighting for their rights [Dharma]. I don’t recall they declared war on the world to convert the world to their ways of thinking or to their religion. Have they? But you[Moslems] have to kill, murder people to convert the world to your Arabs and backward religion.
Have the Hindu, Sikh, Buddhists ever fought each other to convert. No1. Have they declared to march into the world and destroy Mecca and Rome and convert the people .No! Moslem kill each other every day for what?.
Islam is a reaction to Christianity and Judaism[the Jews] of his[Mo’s] time.Christians and the Jews would taunt the Moslems that they[Moslems] believe in many gods and we only believe in one god. It is this reaction that created Islam and not some God inspirations.
Christ , Buddha, never hurt anyone. They never created armies to march on other nations. But Mo was a butcher and a rapist who believed in violence to convert the entire the world.
If some passage are taken out of context, that does not make Christ and Buddha like Mo. There are lot of passages in the Koran, the Moslem don’t understand but accept them as true. Sixty percentage of the Koran deals with war and other inhuman acts.
If you want to talk about Buddhism and Hinduism. First read the Veda and Upanishads and the Gita.
Buddhism , Hinduism are called Sanathan Dharma. Which means the ancient rules set out by the creator for human at the beings. Do your duty to all human being regardless of creed or colour. The world is one big family so say the Veda.
If Islam is religion of peace and perfect. How come the entire Moslem world is in a mess; killing each other every day. I don’t see Christian and other religion killing each other.
Since Islam is suppose to be the last word and the perfect word of so called god, and Mo suppose to be the last prophet[who never prophesied anything]. Why do you need other’s people religion to defend your religion. God stand on truth. The truth[for muslems] as I have mentioned earlier. You[Islam] can only exist by reacting to other’s faiths and not by any so called word of god.
Its a religion of reaction and not of God.
April 23, 2007 2:24 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 23, 2007 14:24
To Danny B.----your kindness and fairness is refreshing. Thank you. May all those who strive for mutual respect and peace prevail.
April 23, 2007 1:49 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 23, 2007 13:49
You wouldn't suppose that Frank Collins continues to spam this forum in an effort to drive people away from the site, do you? What other reason is there for posting spam that nobody IN THEIR RIGHT MIND would bother reading?
April 23, 2007 1:48 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 23, 2007 13:48
You had my answer before. Why has it been removed?
It clearly shows your religion is a cult. If Mo claim it is the last word of God and perfect. Why on earth do you need to point to other religions to justify your barbarism. Can’t you stand and argue your points by using the Koran alone. Islam was created as reaction to other religion and not because some god came and inspire Mo.
You are in position to talk about Hinduism or Buddhism.
When they [Hinduism or Buddhism] start to march on Rome or Mecca only then you should consider them to be violent.
Stop deleting my post.
April 23, 2007 1:44 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 23, 2007 13:44
To Curious Cat-----The cities of Mecca and Medina are not tourist areas for anyone to simply go there to sight-see. Muslims from all over the world go there with the strict purpose of fulfilling one of the pillars of the faith--the hajj in accordance to God's command. There are many other places around the world that welcome nonMuslim guests to learn about Islam.
April 23, 2007 1:40 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 23, 2007 13:40
The very question at hand tells me that the moderators of this forum don't even bother to read it. The question has been answered for weeks now without it even being asked. Now they fully validate this anti-Islam rant by requesting it be the very subject at hand. Honestly!
Frank Collins, do you think that no one gets your point? I got it weeks ago. I, for one, don't feel the need to repeat my self over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, again.
No matter how many ways you say it, it is the same old stuff. The ONLY change is that maybe it gets more boring (see above).
It drowns out others who disagree, and that is a sad tactic in attempting to prove a point. There has been no balance of viewpoint here, because anyone trying to learn about Islam, let alone defend it, has been abused and run out of town "on a rail".
While I firmly believe in the right to free speech, and respect the opinions of others, whether I agree or not...I have no respect for willful and proud ignorance. I try always to acknowledge, and then correct my own ignorance. I am not so insecure that I need to shout any old thing to keep people from thinking I am ignorant. I would rather show to anyone that I am open to all sorts of possibilities while I live on this planet.
As I should have done sooner, I will exercise my right to exclude myself from things I disagree with. Which, in this case, is the attempt to quiet anyone with a pro-Islam viewpoint at all costs.
To Pamela and others of you who have given me some insight into what makes Islam inspirational to you, I thank you. You have sent me in the proper direction for discovering the truth for myself, whatever I may find that to be. At least I will have a clear consience, knowing that I searched in the spirit of accepting and respecting ALL my fellow humans.
To all...peace!
Danny B.
April 23, 2007 1:34 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 23, 2007 13:34
To Frank----it would take some time to verify if the crimes being done in Thailand are true. The bulk of that list is predominately in war-zones of Iraq and Afghanistan, and majority of the crimes are done for non-religious reasons. Do you think people are so dumb they can't see that? I always find it odd when Muslims commit crimes their religion is blamed, yet when Christians and Jews do the same, no mention is ever made. It's not Islam, its individuals.
April 23, 2007 1:32 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 23, 2007 13:32
Lets take a moment and be thankful that we are able to speak openly even if we disagree and do not fear censure or imprisonment or death.
And please take another moment to remember those who are censured and imprisoned and put to death for openly disagreeing.
April 23, 2007 12:32 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 23, 2007 12:32
Just yesterday, I read a very interesting article about Europol's analysis of the 436 terrorist attacks that occured in Europe this past year. Exactly 1 of them had been carried out by an Islamic group. Of course, this does not make headlines, even in Europe.
For those interested you can read the article here:
http://www.counterpunch.org/larsson04212007.html
I would also point out that the vast majority of those acts posted by Frank occurred in Iraq -- a war zone. While they are atrocious and horrible acts, it is hardly surprising that horrible things happen during warfare. The firebombing of Dresden wasn't exactly nice, nor the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Pamela
April 23, 2007 12:05 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 23, 2007 12:05
The reason why this is so is because these areas are ment to be a spiritual center for islam and for the muslims around the world. They are neither tourist sites nor are they means to 'have fun'. They are soley prescribed to the Muslims as an act of faithfulness, devotion, and integrity. These areas are means of salvation and refugee for the millions of pilgrims, not another place to visit. The Muslim's soul is poured out when reaching these holy areas and is in a constaint state of ihram (devotion, disconnection from life, etc).
April 23, 2007 12:02 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 23, 2007 12:02
Frank Collins:
Spamming the board with isolated accounts of violence doesn't prove your point. Besides, your examples make about as much sense as using World War I and II to prove Christianity is violent.
April 23, 2007 11:51 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 23, 2007 11:51