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i recommend any who are interested in learning more about islam to watch a new series airing tonight on PBS called America at the Crossroads-

tonight deals with the formation of al-qaeda
and muslim extremists

where do people get the idea of christians and jews being descended from monkeys?
this is not i the qur'an.
neither is conversion at the point of a sword.

god is always just

"Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves, and under a just God can not long retain it."

Abraham Lincoln

"We believe no more in Bonaparte's fighting merely for the liberties of the seas, than in Great Britain's fighting for the liberties of mankind. The object is the same, to draw to themselves the power, the wealth, and the resources of other nations."

Thomas Jefferson

Tariq Ramadan
If you truly want the West to reach an understanding with the Muslim world here is what must happen first.

There must be a prohibition on the application of Sharia or Islamic law upon non-Muslims.

These must be a prohibition on the Jizra which is the heavy poll tax applied to non-Muslims as an "incentive" for them to convert to Islam.

There must be total equality among the faiths in terms of the rights to speak out, to worship openly and to proslescize. i.e. no one can prohibit Christians or any other faith from openly talking to others about it.

There must be a total repudiation of all passages within the Quran that call for the forced conversion to Islam by the sword and all passages that refer to Jews and Christians as the descendents of pigs and apes. We are all human beings and deserve the respect given to all equally including the right to choose our faith.

There must be an end to the practice of accusing non-Muslims of insulting Mohammed whenever something is said that a Muslim disagrees with. If God feels that something insulting to His word is truly been said, he will deal with it justly on Judgement Day rather than relying upon the truly imperfect judgement of human beings.

Do all of this....and then we can START feeling that Islam has a chance of being understood.

Nichos says, "So, the question is not about a universal "we" but the imperative need for the muslims to grow up and mature in order to be accepted for who they are!"

So you're calling me and many many humans beings inlcuding men and woman, Americans, Canadians, 188 other nationalies, young, old, etc. immature, someone who needs to grow up? Resonates a lot like generalization and prejudice only its not racism that clouds your judgment, but xenophobia and Islamophobia.

I hope its not ppl like you trying to start a dialogue. Sounds more like pontification from the pulpit.

>>Interestingly, the Coptics in Egypt are heavily discriminated against by the Muslim government.

By the "Muslim gov't?"

Practically no government in the Arab world is an "Islamic government!" Hosni "the Dictator" Mubarak's repressive gov't is bankrolled by the US for the sole purpose that 1) Its an ally of Israel. 2) It represses the growing popularity of the Muslim Brotherhood.

In Egypt, President Hosni Mubarak, the darling of the Bush gov't continues his torture camps, interrogation rooms, and kills more Muslims than he'd ever the Copts.
In fact when Pope Benedict demonized Muslims last year, it was the Coptic Pope that eloquently wrote him a letter testifying to the tolerance of Islam that has made his church exist to this day. Can the same be said of Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary where Muslims compromised the majority just 400 years ago? Love is indeed better than hate. Sadly politics and war has clouded the passions of Muslims in the Middle East and indeed the world.

>>"Don't be a hypocrite and say we have to respect your values when unfortunately Islam does not respect those of others."

So two wrongs would make a right in your analysis? The mere knee-jerk, sheer ignorance mixed with fear-mongering on this message board is...sadly reflective of everything Mr. Ramadan is saying.
Thank you for proving his point.

I just hope one day the sheer walls of prejudice and zero-sum political game based on what Dr. Ramadan calls "identity politics" are purged.

Because at the end of the day human beings are human beings. What we truly need to fear is anything otherwise. Because it is precisely when Muslims, Jews, Iraqis, Iranians are dehumanized that it becomes "ok" to kill them...as one poster warned about.

Great analysis Professor Ramadan...and I apologize on behalf of this government of the country that boasts itself on freedom of speech (its very 1st Amendment of the Constitution) because you were denied the very freedom it goes to war in the Middle East (Iraq) to spread through war, violence, and force...whereas Britain still upholds some air of freedom (yes, unlike many US-supported ME dictatorial regimes).

Peaceout my fellow brothers/sisters in humanity.

hey look at that- someone named chris and i were writng the same thought at the same time, and look at the different conclusions we both came up with-

chris wrote-
"The only way to overcome fear is through increased understanding."

the same time i wrote-
"the only way to combat fear is through knowledge."

is almost identical!

well, our conclusion were different-
chris-
"There could be no meaninginful exchange between people who disagree on such fundamental issues."

victoria
" the core belief of islam is that all humans are equal before god-
1300 years before america embraced this truth, muslms have been living and believing it."

im till hopeful though

i love synchronicity- its a start

Mr Ramadan,
You seem to believe that the "clash of civilisations" is a political manufacture. But, just look across the world in countries with muslim presence to find out that they are not at ease with values of secular democracy, tolerance, respect for the rule of law, freedom of speech to name but these. So, the question is not about a universal "we" but the imperative need for the muslims to grow up and mature in order to be accepted for who they are!

Dear Mr Ramadan

It seems as if we have to bend down and accommodate the Islamic culture in the West, yet the reverse cannot be said to take place in Arabic countries. When I travelled to Egypt I was respectful and espoused the customs of that land and I would say rightly so as it is a mark of respect. Interestingly, the Coptics in Egypt are heavily discriminated against by the Muslim government. Can you truly say that Islam is respectful of other cultures and religions?? Is the respect we accord to Islam returned to us? In Australia, there is a large contingent of the Muslim community that wears clothing as if they are from the middle ages. What gives? Why come here if the culture is so at odds with theirs? Having said that, I have friends who are good Muslims and they are absolutely wonderful and loving people. We are a very egalitarian society and welcoming of those from other countries and ENRICHED by their contribution. However, there is a contingent of Muslims who are hugely disrespectful of Australian values and agitate for change that accommodates their world view. Change that is at odds with who we are and from where we have come.

So in essence, what I'm saying is this. Emigrate to a country - respect that country's way of life and become a giver rather than a distabilising and I'm sorry and saddened to say , potentially hugely dangerous influence. Let's live together and make it a happy peaceful place.

Don't be a hypocrite and say we have to respect your values when unfortunately Islam does not respect those of others. Mr Ramadan as long as we accord Islam respect - it actually doesn't have to be given back does it?? We all have to understand and respect and accommodate your way of life and beliefs, but really I do not believe or get from your posting that Islam is willing to accord the same respect to others.

I read a wonderful discussion at this site "On Faith". I liked it so much I saved a copy in my files.

Then I come to this topic and am shocked at the negativity, fear, and hatred fueled by ignorance. There are websites out there that are quoting things out of any reasonalble context to "prove" how inevitably bad Islam is.

As a Christian I could go over the immense horrors done by Christaindom and its allies recently and through the ages. However I won't add to the negativity already here.

I could also go over the horrific things God told the Israelites to do to the peoples who were in their way. But we don't measure the Jewish people by everything their forefathers wrote down and which several still take literally.

When horrific murders are committed we need to catch the killer(s) and work out how to minimise the risk of it happening again. To blame "Them" or "They" instead of the actual criminal(s), is to start or escalate fueding that leads to war.

Who benefits when deep-seated, crusader like prejudice is being exploited and inflamed in us. When we start to degrade the "enemy" and their basis for living correctly, it becomes so much easier to kill them in wars.

I find it interesting that those who argue on what Professor Ramamdan has said, seem to have missed the point. His primary point is that it is up to each community to reslove inherent conflicts that force a clash. Whether, it be religious or nationalistic.
"But in the final analysis, nothing will change until they accept full responsibility for themselves, become constructively critical, and self critical, and respond to the creeping evolution of fear with a firmly grounded revolution of trust."

However, Professor Ramadan does not seem to address amore interesting subject and that is the question, on whether Islam is a nationality or only a religion?

This point of nationalism is important for the those who "fight" against the US or Russia, or Britain do so, because they wish to establish a an "Islamic" code of government conduct. In someways it is similar to the idea of a Holy Roman Empire where a pope and the power of government were one and the same.

The answer to this question would answer the issue of compatability of Islam to the recognised humanistic values of equality and individual rights against the state. Which, unfortunately, can only be found ( more in some places than others) in what is termed "The West."
and not in countries that are termed " Muslim Countries."

The problem with the Muslim culture is that they are not tolerant of others. If one visits any of their countries, particularly Arab ones, their world is completely different than what they try to preach to the West.

Until 2001, Muslims in the United States loved all that was Western but wanted to co-opt the things they saw the West build into their own version of how things "ought to be." Hence, the textbooks that damned the United States in Islamic schools and United States mosques.

I hope Americans, who are generous (on average), don't get fooled by the likes of Tariq. If he (they) demonstrate a culture of tolerance for others, he/they will not have to strain so hard to write articles like his to "defend" Islam, the misunderstood religion.

Irrational reactions? To 9/11 in the US or 7/7 in Britain. Or Madrid. Or any of the numerous attacks by Islamic fanatics. As for defending Western values, why not? After all, there is no prohibition on churches in the West as there is in Saudi Arabia. And Western values are not Madrassa values where anyone who does not share your religion is a pig or ape.

So if the author wants to define a new 'We', he should feel free to try. But how about instead of trying to define a new 'We', how about actions. Because reasonable Islamic words tend to be drowned out by bombings, kidnappings, rocket attacks, misogyny, homophobia, Holocaust denials, torture and terrorist killings.

"I strongly suggest Islamic moderates trying to bridge the gap between Islam and the West begin in their own world. Anyone can speak out in the West without fear. We are pluralistic. It is the Islamic world that is afraid of losing its identity, that is irrational, that is culturally homogeneous. No Christian, Jew let alone atheist can speak out in the Islamic world. There are no democratic values. And the West certainly needs no explanation of the Islamic world--we have plenty of libraries and bookstores stocked with books that cannot be found in the Islamic world.

Tariq Ramadan go home and tell your fellow Muslims to embrace Christians and Jews and atheists and to have women remove the veil--see where it gets you. And stand in the crowded square or market and scream the virtues of science. I can do that right now any place in America...You go home and tell that to your people. When they accept that I will be afraid no more"

Ditto.

I lived in Europe and to be exact the country where both Pim Fortuyn and Theo van Gogh were assassinated. And I can tell you the climate was created by hatred for religion and Christianity in particular, call it extreme-liberalism-secularism-multiculturalism and the tyranny of political correctness=Cultural Marxism where freedom of speech is only for some.

Pim Fortuyn who was labeled rightwing extremist, danger to Muslim immigrants world wide was murdered for exposing the dangers of radical Islam getting free reign in the Netherlands and it ultimately gave the killer of Theo van Gogh carte blanc to kill him in the name of allah.

The same people advocating free-speech for moderate Muslims part take in silencing others who disagree with them that's why it is so easy for Muslims to play the clever game. Under the guise of religious freedom they can slash your throat at any giving time or use other violence to shut you up. But the intelligensia is so distracted by their own will and ego and neglect to connect the dots.

Officials say that there is nothing they can do to prevent these people from doing in a free society and the radicals smiling in the camera and admit that they are there because in the Netherlands they get all the opportunities to do what they want. When I told somebody this the person thought I was paranoid but after seeing a documentary for himself he was in total shock. Now who is fooling who?

People who bash Christianity are taking things for granted....thinking that the freedoms they now enjoy to hate religion just came falling from the sky.....their brand of secularism destroyed more innocent human life world wide than you can blame Christianity for. Check the history books.

Dear Brother Tariq,

In an exchange of postings with readers of the column Dialogue With Islam Is Vital to the West, I offered the following conclusion to one of the skeptics in the debate.

My final word is this: if you are concerned that Islam is doomed because it is backward, I assure you that Islam will, if only a small part thanks to Tariq Ramadan, know a Revival -- Not a Reformation like Martin Luther's, nor a Revolution like the Enlightenment] but a Revival--that will catapult it to a higher path of for its followers' self-awareness in the quest for the betterment of the human race in harmony with the rest of creation, including beyond Planet Earth, and Beyond our Solar System.

The issues of energy-resource grabbing geo-strategy, population dynamics and what Peter Turchin calls Cliodynamics and ithers call a New
Eugenics, Immigration and Relative Birth Rates, Social Mobility and Integration are very very transitory.

Also, Islam's Revival will not be to the detriment of any other 'competing' spirituality or code of living but complementary to their own blossoming.

The Muslims are paying a very clever game. They know they cannot win this war by guns and bombs so they are using organized demographic explosion to destroy the west and indeed other civilizations. As an Indian who has lived most of his life in the sub continent and who is now living in Europe let me tell all those liberal peacenicks- There is no compromise in Islam unless all muslims begin to question their faith and its vital aspects using common sense and rationality (stoning women to death is unacceptable). I am sad to say that after effectively destroying India by organized population explosion and partitioning the subcontinent into ghettos, these muslims have turned their eyes on Europe . America must be careful.Stop all muslim immigration to United States.

the only way to combat fear is through knowledge.

america has endured many waves of immigrants and new ideologies in the past.
what is it that is so frightening to people about islam?

the core belief of islam is that all humans are equal before god-

1300 years before america embraced this truth, muslms have been living and believing it.

The only way to overcome fear is through increased understanding. For example, how is it that so many Muslims in so many parts of the world can not speak out strongly against:

--suicide bombing, which is only the purposeful murder of innocents, under any circumstances whatsoever?

--the murder by stoning of women for infidelity and other transgressions of religious law?

--an often repeated desire to have Israel completely and utterly destroyed?

A scholar's purpose is not to exhort us to show greater courage (and so to wrongly imply it is something we lack), but to further understanding between individuals of different backgrounds and beliefs, so that we can reasonably and effectively begin a dialogue. This piece would have been infinitely better directed toward that end.

People will not wait forever for these answers to be heard. Sooner or later, under the constant pressure of this conflict, the answers will be assumed not to exist and a dialogue will be thought to be impossible. There could be no meaninginful exchange between people who disagree on such fundamental issues.

Apparenly message of Mr.Ramdan apears to be lost on some people on this forum.Some are giving dogmatic statements about Islam without little or no understanding of it. Ironically, by giving such dogmatic statements they are committing the same mistake for which they penalize muslims in first place.

Read the Koran. If one is an infidel who won't convert, one is an enemy of Islam. If one won't convert to the Dobson< Robertson, Fallwell brand of hate Christianity, one is damned and therefore an enemy as well. Religions create enemies by their very nature. Both Islam and Christian extremists are my enemies.

Islam and secular western culture are incompatible! Christianity and secular western culture are incompatible! Christians are the only ones that haven't realized this.
Violence doesn't have to result, but the west hasn't a clue at how offensive our "values of homosexuality, abortion, permiscuity, and lack of respect for true faith is! Economic reasons aren't the only or even main reasons of conflict. They have no toleration for actions offensive to Allah as the Christians should with offenses against Christ. Again, violence should never be the answer, but in the end will be the action of the secularists.
Islam doesn't have the message of peace as does Christianity because the true god is triune and Love!

Friend:

"Our support of corrupt, brutal governments to control the supply of oil to the west has brought us to this point in history."

Here it is again....it is the government?is the government not run and influenced by people and special interest groups who in turn act on behalf of the people who want the government to take care of all their needs and only vote people into office who make promises that can not be kept? The government is you....the people get what the people want...so the people have the government that they deserve. Nothing just happens....

FYI; I know people not based on their ethnic background, religion, skin color or more of the non-sense that really doesn't matter much in the end. I know people for who they are as simple as that. Anybody can make things complicated but it takes a genius to keep things simple!

When you put two and two together logic will tell you that the problem starts and ends when PEOPLE stop behaving like all knowing Gods with or without religion on earth!

Tariq Ramadan is a propogandist for Islam, and his charming and calming words are meant for Western public consumption. Ramadan is the grandson of the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood and the son of a Jihadist who fled Egypt for Switzerland in 1954. He is Islamic royalty, and his role in persuading the West that there is nothing to fear from Islam is a canard. His natural sympathizers in the West are the same breed of fellow travelers that once doted on Stalin and, early on, believed the Nazis could be reckoned with through multi-lateral negotiations. Let's stay with the facts. Ramadan is dangerous, deceitful and the harbinger of the Islamic faith promulgated by the Muslim Brotherhood that has morphed into a political/military arm determined to apply Sharia wherever Muslims set foot and also determined to restore the 1,500 year old vision of the "faithful" that believes it's possible to defeat the West and create a Muslim super power stretching from the Hindu Kush through the Middle east and North Africa and into Europe. Believe otherwise at your own risk.

I would describe myself as a very afraid Westerner. For the record I am an insignificant Westerner, poor, diagnosed in the past with mental illness. I also have no education to speak of (dropped out of high school). But I read quite a bit and I do have a measure of honesty.

I do believe Islam to be a threat to the West. I do not believe in pluralism to the point that Western values collapse. I am angry when someone says the West is fearful of the loss of its identity, cultural homogeneity, Western values. The fact is in no other civilization has there been an embrace and synthesis of various cultures as in the West. Every artistic and scientific advancement is witness to that. The West has embraced much Middle Eastern music, food, architectural design, and nowhere else in the world is there a greater respect for the line of scientists reaching back through the Islamic world to China, India, the Greeks. The West is the most scientifically enlightened world that has ever existed and is the greatest champion of science.

Now we are told by many we are irrationally fearing Islam--the same Islam which had so many great scientists in their golden age but never really ushered in the scientific revolution. It was left to the West to do that--the Islamic scientists were more respected in the West than in their own world. Islam prefered to be exactly Islam and reign over science. Islam has been backward scientifically ever since.

And now we are told not to be afraid...As if scientists have ever been widely embraced! Scientists have a difficult time enough in the Western world with Christians being nervous. No need to add a billion Muslims to the mix...But we are told not to worry about the Islamic peoples entering the West...

I can tell Islamic people right now that the conflict between Islam and the West is just beginning. Also the conflict between Islam and the Far East. The problem is not the skin color of Muslims. The problem is not the food, music or anything else. The problem is Islam. And I can offer no greater proof of American goodwill than the fact that the U.S. dropped two atomic bombs on Japan and today Japan and the U.S. are not only friends, Japan is a great economy and the U.S. accepts any sort of economic challenges. We buy Japanese cars, electronic equipment etc. We do not want war--we want economic advancement. But the Islamic world prefers Islam...

I strongly suggest Islamic moderates trying to bridge the gap between Islam and the West begin in their own world. Anyone can speak out in the West without fear. We are pluralistic. It is the Islamic world that is afraid of losing its identity, that is irrational, that is culturally homogeneous. No Christian, Jew let alone atheist can speak out in the Islamic world. There are no democratic values. And the West certainly needs no explanation of the Islamic world--we have plenty of libraries and bookstores stocked with books that cannot be found in the Islamic world.

Tariq Ramadan go home and tell your fellow Muslims to embrace Christians and Jews and atheists and to have women remove the veil--see where it gets you. And stand in the crowded square or market and scream the virtues of science. I can do that right now any place in America...You go home and tell that to your people. When they accept that I will be afraid no more...And the lion shall lie down with the lamb and there will be peace in the world....

Islam is not the enemy; the enemy is us—the people who hate each other who happen to belong to a faith. If we were not, we are just deserved to be called idiots.

Yeah, Ronald Reagan knocked down the Berlin Wall. Not an enlightened Soviet leader, a corrupt government, and rebellious countries.

I doubt you know any Muslims.

As you sow so shall you reap.

Our support of corrupt, brutal governments to control the supply of oil to the west has brought us to this point in history.

No offense, but I trust the Pope's opinion more than any other Christian on this comment page.

POPE JOHN PAUL II ON ISLAM...

"Christians and Muslims generally we have understood each other badly. Sometimes in the past we have opposed each other and even exhausted ourselves in polemics and wars. I believe that God is calling us today to change our old habits. We have to respect each other and stimulate each other in good works upon the path indicated by God. In a world that desires unity and peace, but which experiences a thousand tensions and conflicts, believers should foster friendship and union among humanity and the people who comprise a single community on earth"

"May the hearts of Christians and Muslims turn to one another with feelings of brotherhood and friendship, so that the Almighty may bless us with the peace which heaven alone can give. To the One, Merciful God be praise and glory for ever. Amen."

"The current Islamic expansion is rather dramatic and if there is no change they will take over France in 2020 and who knows maybe they will dominate us all some day. When that happens the Post can cancel this blog and we can all kiss our freedom of religion good bye."

That Islam is not on par with the West is a fact, but people keep missing the point. Islam is being moved by people and their thoughts, just like it happened with Judiasm and Christianity.

You also need to take into account that this expansion is fueled by people in the West who share some common ground with this radicalism.

Unless you address the human aspect behind this expansion you will have a debate until kingdom come without result. Europe is already conquered they are just waiting to make the formal announcement. Having these moderate voices coming out of the woodwork is another mindgame of those who want their master utopian plan to succeed.

Ronald Reagan knocked down the Berlin wall but he did not succeed in taking down the mindset that is behind the destruction of the West. History will just repeat is self while some turn there fingers and wanting dialogue...:-(((

Halozcel has stated the facts; however, I disagree with his statement that Islam needs to be reformed. Islam is so out of touch with today's pluralistic democracies that a major enlightenment is required. Reformation won't work when you have something based on the sharia, the hidith and the Koran. We really need another Mohamed to come along and modify the Koran to reflect tolerance, love, separation of church and state, freedom of religion, freedom of speech and as a bonus maybe - modern dress codes. Fat chance that this will happen! Yet, trying to reform Islam would be like pouring new wine into old wine skins. I am not very hopeful and the impasse we have had with Islam that has lasted for over 1,400 years will continue with oil money giving them power to continue their current expansion. The current Islamic expansion is rather dramatic and if there is no change they will take over France in 2020 and who knows maybe they will dominate us all some day. When that happens the Post can cancel this blog and we can all kiss our freedom of religion good bye.

There are at least two Tariq Ramadans. There is the public Ramadan who appears tolerant, pragmatic, and even democratic. And there is the private Ramadan, the ideologue of the Muslim brotherhood, who shows his true face to the faithful only. The latter is a fascist, a bigot, a sexist, and an apologist for Islamists. To my knowledge, Tariq Ramadan has never condoned violence in Algeria. This issue aside, people who have been led to believe that he is a great thinker do not know that his pamphlets (that some call books), contains superficial thought only. It could not be otherwise because Islamism is by its very nature an ideology that masquerades as science, and lofty thought. But the main problem that I have with Tariq Ramadan is his vision for Muslim societies. He is more dangerous than the Islamists, who plant bombs and blow themselves up, because he “produces” the very ideology which guides these Islamists. I pity the students at Oxford University; they are not going to get their money’s worth. Anyway, if Americans want to learn more about Islam they have two options: read the books of Professor Arkoun of La Sorbonne University, or invite him to give lectures in the US. He is a true expert, and one without a political agenda. This is not the opinion of a Westerner, but of a Muslim, who believes that Islamism is fascism.

There is no any lack of dialogue between Civilization and islam.
There has been always dialogue.Problem is not dialogue.
Islam is not compatible with the contemporary values and Human Rights.Present civilization based on human rights,secularism and rationality.
Islam rejects all of them.

Islam doesnt respect Human Rights,islam pursues sharia law that based on desert rules.

Islam doesnt respect christianity and other beliefs,on the contrary islam insults christian values.

Islam doesnt respect man and woman equality,islam degrades women.

Islam doesnt respect rationality,but advocates 'literalism' and dogma.

Islam doesnt respect Freedom,islam embrace subjugation.Woman has no right to divorce her husband and woman has no right to show her unwashed hairs.Head scarf is the mark of subjugation and being third class person.

Islam doesnt know what Democracy is.There is no any constitution in islam.Quran is the only book.

Islam doesnt know what Love is,islam based on Hate and Fear.

Islam doesnt know what diversity is,islam based on washbrain.Muslim must worship in arabic language 35 times in a week(5 times in a day)

Solution is not dialogue.Islam should be reformed and must urgently come to twentyfirst century.
Islam ought to adopt civilized values.

The same intellectual elite who help to create the chaos and confusion with their dogmas, seperating people based on their skin color, religion and ethnic background now want to fool the people with their We the people rethoric...come on! "You can fool some people some time but you can not fool the people all the time." Abraham Lincoln.

My friend Jacob, they will never go POOF because they offer insights into who WE are.

If we do not learn from the past, we are condemned to repeat it.

Peace, Mr Ya Ya Mon.

It's nice to see actual, intellectual debate about tthe "war on terror." Also, thank you for highlighting the demonizing of Islam after 9/11. It's sad to see such polarization of the country (and the world!) in the past five years.

Thank you Professor Ramadan for your brave and enlightened ideas.

I'm worried that the power stucture that supports the world's elite makes it almost impossible to change and establish a WE. They promote the ethnic, religious, and national divisions to keep their materialistic advantages. This breeds radicalism.

I'm worried that we are still beasts and not gods and that will bury us.