I AGREE WITH PASTOR ROD PARSLEY. tHIS WORL IS CARZY. WHAT HAPPENS TODAY IS BECAUSE THEY HAVE TAKEN GOD OUT OF THE SCHOOLS. tHE WANT TO TAKE GOD OUT OF EVERYTHING. WHEN YOU TAKE GOD OUT OF EVERYTHING YOU WILL HAVE SHOOTINGS IN SCHOOL, MEN MARRYING MEN, LADIES WITH LADIES. aMERCIA NEEDS TO GET BACK TO GOD. wHEN WE DO WE WILL SEE A CHANGE.
The church is against gays,but is allowing divorced people to remarry get some real truth sin is sin ,guite making excuses for numbers the Mennonite church still refuses fellowship with people living in adultry such as most evangicals do even preachers of more than one wife,this was not accepted 20 years ago ,why now?
Dear Pastor Parsley Praise The Lord!
I am writing in hopes of adding my name to the prayer list tonight. My name is Arlette Briggity. I would like to add my son Mitchell Crooms on the prayer list asking for God to intervene and allow his heart to be turned back to Him. I am also asking for my family's salvation, healing, restoration, financial blessings and everything that God has for my entire family. I am also asking for Gods plans and purposes for my life to come to pass and not altered or adjusted by anyone or anything in Jesus Name!
Please also pray for my son's dad Mitchell Sr. for deliverence and yielding to the almighty God.
Rod Parsley, like Hagee and Robertson, is a con-men. They are in religion for the money, in fact they are all millionaires. There is a lot of killing going on in Iraq but Parsley supports that. He also supports the Israeli facists in their mission to wipe out the Palestinians. Men like this are a danger to reason and progress. Beware of them.
Thank you, Pastor, for this word. I am one of many who believe that this country was much better when the 10 Commandments were posted in public places, including schools. I believe they remind us of right actions and behaviors. "Thou shalt not kill" is one that I wish Cho Seung Hui had seen daily. Perhaps his life and the lives of others at VA Tech would have been different.
You have to trust Gawda
To help youah
Get the things in lifeah
That you really want to havah
Trust Gawda!
Can someone give me a trust Gawda?
Give your lasta dollarah to meah
And Gawda willa reward youah
With untold wealth and successah!
Give it upah!
Give it upah!
Everyone scream GIVE IT UPAH!!!
The world needs less religion. It comforts the delusional. With the god theory, what would one think of an adult who still belives in Santa Claus ? When one can not prove what believes, it is called a delusion. Take religion out of the picture and you will cut the world's delusion in half and it would become a safer place to live in. Joseph Cambell said ; religion is mythology gone crazy.
Randy: god is real, yes, but he is a man made fiction. Enjoy deluding yourself. I personally love creation, and savour every minute I have. Oh yeah, Jesus never existed and Jerry Falwell was a fraud too.
I once heard an atheist say, "I would rather go to Hell than go to Heaven [with a God that would allow all the things that go on in this earth].
Non-believer I must tell you that God didn't make the world the way it is. We live in a fallen creation. Investigate, search, learn. God is real.
3. Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4. And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation. II Peter 3:3-4
Consider yourself warned.
But also consider yourself within the reach of God because he tells us...
9. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Very well stated and you are absolutely right. The only thing I would differ on with you is that I would assume that you belive belief in God requires Faith and only Faith. Where I believe belief in God requires Faith but is backed up with reason. I don't believe it requires Faith alone.
I enjoyed the discussion greatly and am sure I'll catch up with you on another one of these blogs.
Belief in God requires some faith but I would argue his existence can be almost proved and doesn't require faith alone.
You are right in that its virtually (I would say its actually impossible) impossible to prove the non-existence of anything which in and of itself discredits Victor Stengel. I can make a pretty healthy stab at disproving lots of things but is really poor science. Science proves things not the other way around.
BigD what you say makes clear sense.
and of course,
the Free Will argument is the best response AnYONE has come up with to the Problem of Evil, so you are in good company.
Though I think we agree that belief in God must be based on Faith, i think there are more or less rational faiths. Some belief systems in God make a lot of sense if you buy the premise, some make none.
take a look at this from a Catholic website (the catholics have done the most in depth thinking on this issue through the ages:
"The problem of evil is the most serious problem in the world. It is also the one serious objection to the existence of God.
When Saint Thomas Aquinas wrote his great Summa Theologica, he could find only two objections to the existence of God, even though he tried to list at least three objections to every one of the thousands of theses he tried to prove in that great work. One of the two objections is the apparent ability of natural science to explain everything in our experience without God; and the other is the problem of evil.
More people have abandoned their faith because of the problem of evil than for any other reason. It is certainly the greatest test of faith, the greatest temptation to unbelief. And it's not just an intellectual objection. We feel it. We live it. That's why the Book of Job is so arresting.
I agree with Henry for instance:
many smart people believe in God
and many smart people don't.
The smart people who Do believe
that God has to be taken on Faith.
That his existence can't be proved from evidence.
I am just agreeing with that statement.
When Phantom tells me to "get real" however, I feel the need to point out that i AM relying on real observable evidence (or lack of it).
BTW
it is virtually impossible to prove the NON existence of anything. Try Unicorns. Can you prove that they DON't exist?
There actually is a reasonable book out by a scientist named Victor Stengel where he takes the position that he can JUST about disprove the existence of God. You may not agree with him, but he makes a pretty healthy stab at it (pardon the verb).
Thank you for your insightful reply. Personally – as I tried to point out to Heraclitus – I think this is progress in debate.
See you do not believe Faith is rational. I completely understand that. It is definitely true that Faith must be involved. (Back to the supernatural argument – if God exists then obviously we could never understand it all and it would require Faith – not trying to argue any point here).
To me though I believe my faith is rational and even though I can’t explain everything most things as I see lead me to believe that God is more likely to exist then not. That is our difference of opinion and that is fine and good.
Now comes the hard part. You are correct, I believe, “if God …..” yes he could have prevented the boy from becoming mentally ill. He could also stop every major disaster that befalls human beings. He could create a perfect utopia and form our will to always follow his. BUT…
If God created human beings and gave them free will. And more than anything God wants us to love him and realize that if we followed his instructions life would be good. THEN there is no logical way for him to intervene in every day events involving human free will. For if he does that then we don’t freely love him.
It’s this view of God that allows for a rational faith. I do not believe in a God who wants to control all things. He wants us to love him because he is good but only if we are willing to do it from our own free choice. This is the view of God that often gets short changed here.
So in my opinion of God – he didn’t do anything obscene or incomprehensible (while yes his overall actions are by nature incomprehensible) he just let the world do its thing. Sometimes its tragic sometimes its beautiful. If we didn’t love God in both cases we would be loving him conditionally.
This is the problem with most debates between believers and atheists. Typically though not always as my new friends Mr Mark and Henry James of demonstrated in this BLOG Atheists try to say see you have no proof so God doesn’t exist – I’m smart – you’re dumb – we can’t debate anything else. The same can probably be said in reverse of believers often times.
I would make the assertion that you have no proof that God does not exist. Maybe your vision of what God would be if you believed in God doesn’t exist. But you have no proof that an omniscient God does not exist. While I tend to think that more things than not, including my rationale, science, and nature do prove that God exists – I can’t prove it beyond every doubt to anyone who doesn’t want to believe it. Similarly I am quite certain that you have no proof that he doesn’t exist that would convince me beyond every doubt that he doesn’t exist.
My point, as I have tried to make earlier in this blog is that if we stop treating each other as ignorant, accept the fact that rational (and many irrational) people for millennia have debated this issue and move past the argument of just does he or doesn’t he exist (since I am pretty sure that won’t be resolved here) we might be able to engage in real debate and dialogue.
I agree that many believers are very intelligent people.
I do not believe it is "rational" to believe. In fact, many believers acknowledge that their belief is based on Faith rather than rationality. I think it must be. Just my opinion.
But of course everyone is free to believe or not believe as they see fit.
If there IS a God, in any meaningful sense of God (created the world, can do pretty much whatever he wants)
as I noted above, it seems to me that
God created a world where
a boy became Insane
Not out of Free Will or choices he made to be Evil
(if God exists, Evil makes sense as a concept)
But because it was "God's Will" for reasons of his own that we can't understand,
He COULD have prevented the boy from going insane,
and
he therefore could have prevented this tragedy.
My original point was that to blame the Secularists for this tragedy is Obscene.
God is responsible.
If the tragic incident WAS obscene,
it was an "obscene act of God."
If one wants to avoid the provocative word "obscene"
we can at least say
"it was an imcomprehensible (by humans) act of God."
in my logical system,
there is a difference between saying
"God exists because I have a burning feeling of certainty in my chest that he exists"
as, for instance, my Mormon friends do,
and saying
"I don't know if God exists (or for atheists, I don't believe that God exists)
because I have never seen any evidence that would tend to confirm his existence, just as I have never seen any evidence that tends to confirm the evidence of Unicorns."
Atheists like myself are open to convincing evidence. We just have not seen any, and have seen lots of contrary evidence.
Is that what you mean by "Get Real."? Rely on Real Evidence?
Perfectly understandable that it doesn’t satisfy all – and of course it is a complex WHOPPER issue.
The problem I hoped to clarify wasn’t the problem of evil – its that on blogs like these often times believers are put on the side of if they believe in God then they have to believe he did this. Just as they are put on the side that if they believe in God they must dis-avow science. My point is there is a logical and reasoned way of approaching the issue as a believer.
I would venture to say most believers would not make the assertion that this boy chose to be mentally ill. His actions can be debated in how much choice he had but most would not argue that being mentally ill was his choice.
You are right an omniscient God that created the universe did forsee this. Does that mean he should have stopped it though? That is the big question and leads to the Problem of Evil and the ability to explain it. Thus in that sense you were not Absurd. The absurdity came from what appeared to be an either or stance in God either doesn’t exist or he is Evil or in your words obscene.
We can continue to disagree on the existence of God and the role of Free Will and the Problem of Evil – that’s good debate. I just ask that you realize that many believers are also rationale in their belief system.
Your solving of the Problem of evi - it takes a supernatural god to understand a supernatural phenomenon - does now make logical sense to me.
it is reasonable for it to satisfy you.
there are many who understand your argument but do NOT find it satisfying. That includes some believers who decide to live with their problem, and some atheists for whom the problem makes believing in a Just God impossible. Smart people have taken both postions throughout history.
But most agree that it is a WHOPPER of a problem.
It makes little sense to most people to say that this mentally ill boy *chose* through free will to be mentally ill and commit these murders.
The universe that God created resulted in his actions. An omniscient God would have forseen this.
God may be torturing us this way for a reason of his own that we can't understand,
as he did with Job (the most eloquent posing of the problem)
For many of us, we can't believe in a God who acts (or doesn't act) for those kinds of reasons, WHATEVER they are.
Hence, the NON absurdity of my original example. You are free to take a different point of view of course.
Whose prayer clothes are you talking about? I might have missed that post and would like to read it.
If you are talking about most of the Christian world then it doesn't make sense. Most Christians don't object to any sort of medical help for physical or mental health. Just because they belive God is also beneficial doesn't mean most of them don't also believe medicine is beneficial and has its place as well.
I wasn't trying to prove anything about the existence of God. I am not trying to play some sort of mind game with you. I wasn't debating you on whether or not God exists. Even with my limited education I would assume that to make that argument would take a little more than a short blog.
I’ll try to clarify my point, so that even someone like me can understand it.
You made the assertion that if God Exists this was an obscene act by God. Insinuating that if God Does exist then he is either evil or incompetent (right out of your Problem of Evil – imagine that). My point was this is not the only explanation nor the explanation of most people who believe in God. My explanation was people have free will separate from God and you chose to make it seem that anyone that believed in God did not have a valid explanation of such events.
You then complicated the point I was trying to make by bringing in the entire Problem of Evil. I simply clarified that if we continued on the theory that God Existed (from your first argument) then the reason that there has been so much written and thought of over time about the Problem of Evil is exactly because it can not be simply explained. If God doesn’t exist then there is no problem because Evil per se can’t exist (of course then we would get into the definition of evil).
You tried to use the Problem of Evil to say that my insights were in valid and uneducated. I simply gave you a reason that the problem of evil is so complex. And a reason that someone can believe in God and not blame God for the actions of humans or the universe.
Thank you for trying to assist in my education. I never will claim to know everything. If we wan't to get into sarcasm I guess we can do that too - the restauraunt does sound good though. I am not sure I would feel eductaed though if I relied on Wiki for all the answers.
How about one simple questions though.
Hypothetically if God does exist and evil does exist, wouldn't I be correct in stating that as a matter of metaphysics that since evil would be a supernatural characteristic that it would require someone or thing that is also supernatural to fully explain or understand it?
Henry James:
Well I assume when you post on here you are open for criticism and comment. I believe that is the point. My opinions may not be as weighty as yours but I think most will see that I do make a few valid points.
The Problem of Evil is not the same as saying that if God exist then he did this. That simply is not the case.
Yes the theory of evil is quite complex beyond the likes of both of us I would say. In fact if there is evil then that would be a supernatural characteristic. And by its very nature only someone supernatural could completely and totally explain and understand it.
But it is easy to explain this action without blaming God. God created the world. He gave men free will. At any time and any moment I can choose to do whatever I want. God will not stop me. Many times he has given instructions in various ways of what we should do but he will not prevent us from doing anything. Same works with physics and science.
See many people who don’t believe in God assume to believe in God you have to throughout science. This is not the case. God is a scientific God and allows things to happen naturally. Whether it be a tsunami or mental illness. These are simply the characteristics of the world and science. He does not got in the way to force your hand. What kind of relationship would that be?
Please bear with me for just a little longer. If God really wants people to love him above all things and to do what he is asked, what kind of God would he be if he forced us to do it? Its like saying my wife really loves me if I forced her to marry me by threatening her life or her families? How would I ever know if she loved me? Only if she freely choose to do so without me forcing her hand.
Your version of the world would be that if God does exist then the world should be a perfect paradise and no one would have free will?
I do thank you for the response though – I do like the conversation. Unlike a lot of the recent posts I think that the WP and NewsWeek do a great service by having such an open blog to allow people to express their views. Too many other sites hide everyones comments and only post one side of an opinion for all to see.
In what is perhaps a vain attempt to assist in your education, my dear BIGD,
I refer you to Wikipedia for a beginning primer on The Problem of Evil.
Type it in the search, and you will get a sketch going back to Epicurus (I am sure you are familiar with his thought) of the issue, and it continues to be a problem up to the present, except for you.
Epicurus ran a Greek restaurant in Brooklyn during the 1950s.
Mark of Richmond:
If you believe that this group of people you site are fanatical religious right and that they are so powerful you must also believe that the anti-religious liberals are also immensely powerful and scheming behind the scenes. I think that both the left and right are ridiculous when they try and say that the other side is somehow this underhand secretive operation trying to ruin everything in America. Look both sides try to make themselves look right above most everything else. It’s time we set aside trying to prove we are right in politics and do what’s best for everyone instead of not being able to agree with someone just because they are on the other side of the aisle from you.
Let’s balance out your suggested reading with Ann Coulter’s book. That should make us about balanced in our reading shouldn’t it?
In your response to Shawn you stated “If there is a GOD, God caused it. and therefore caused the tragedy. and you blame the secularists. it is, again pardon my French, obscene to do so. if there is a god, it is an obscene act of god.”
This is absurd. Look if you don’t believe in God that is fine and you can make your case for that. But seriously you should at least have a vague understanding of what the majority of those who believe in God believe. Belief in God does not mean you think God controls everything like a big chess match. That is the whole point of free will. It’s a tough concept it seems for some who don’t believe in God but it’s not that hard to acknowledge. I believe in God but I don’t blame things that people do on God.
E Favorite:
You stated: “I bet if we find out that the shooter and his family were devout Christians, you'll be the first to say, "But he wasn't really a Christian." I notice, reading through these discussions, that this is the latest cop-out. Whenever Christians do anything abhorrent (e.g. the Inquisition, the Crusades) , the response is - "Oh, they were false Christians - not the real thing." Somehow, I don’t think Jesus would approve of this behavior.”
Doesn’t your last sentence prove the point? If Jesus wouldn’t approve of the behavior, wouldn’t that make it anti Christian?
Allow me to offer my voice in support of those who are appalled that reputable news sources like the Post or Newsweek would publish the insane rant - and that is all it is - of someone like Rod Parsley. The violence at Virgina Tech had absolutely nothing to do with sin or with turning against God. Nothing. That so many people in this country would turn to such inane, absurd explanations to deal with their grief is just incomprehensible to me. Have our mainstream religious beliefs really caused us to be this far removed from reality?
People who believe that anointed prayer cloths are superior to modern medicine should practice what they preach. You should foreswear all modern medicine --- no antibiotics, no surgery, no attended birth, no modern diagnostic equipment for you.
All Comments (215)
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May 29, 2008 10:03 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 29, 2008 22:03
I AGREE WITH PASTOR ROD PARSLEY. tHIS WORL IS CARZY. WHAT HAPPENS TODAY IS BECAUSE THEY HAVE TAKEN GOD OUT OF THE SCHOOLS. tHE WANT TO TAKE GOD OUT OF EVERYTHING. WHEN YOU TAKE GOD OUT OF EVERYTHING YOU WILL HAVE SHOOTINGS IN SCHOOL, MEN MARRYING MEN, LADIES WITH LADIES. aMERCIA NEEDS TO GET BACK TO GOD. wHEN WE DO WE WILL SEE A CHANGE.
March 12, 2008 12:45 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 12, 2008 12:45
I just enjoy your ministry, especially watching it on TBN. I'm a 16 year old young man in Cape Town, South Africa.
March 10, 2008 5:34 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 10, 2008 05:34
The church is against gays,but is allowing divorced people to remarry get some real truth sin is sin ,guite making excuses for numbers the Mennonite church still refuses fellowship with people living in adultry such as most evangicals do even preachers of more than one wife,this was not accepted 20 years ago ,why now?
January 28, 2008 12:55 PM | Report Offensive Comments
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January 16, 2008 11:32 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 16, 2008 11:32
Dear Pastor Parsley Praise The Lord!
I am writing in hopes of adding my name to the prayer list tonight. My name is Arlette Briggity. I would like to add my son Mitchell Crooms on the prayer list asking for God to intervene and allow his heart to be turned back to Him. I am also asking for my family's salvation, healing, restoration, financial blessings and everything that God has for my entire family. I am also asking for Gods plans and purposes for my life to come to pass and not altered or adjusted by anyone or anything in Jesus Name!
Please also pray for my son's dad Mitchell Sr. for deliverence and yielding to the almighty God.
Thank You Much God Bless
Arlette
December 3, 2007 1:37 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 3, 2007 13:37
Rod Parsley, like Hagee and Robertson, is a con-men. They are in religion for the money, in fact they are all millionaires. There is a lot of killing going on in Iraq but Parsley supports that. He also supports the Israeli facists in their mission to wipe out the Palestinians. Men like this are a danger to reason and progress. Beware of them.
November 5, 2007 7:10 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 5, 2007 19:10
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October 30, 2007 11:09 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 30, 2007 23:09
Thank you, Pastor, for this word. I am one of many who believe that this country was much better when the 10 Commandments were posted in public places, including schools. I believe they remind us of right actions and behaviors. "Thou shalt not kill" is one that I wish Cho Seung Hui had seen daily. Perhaps his life and the lives of others at VA Tech would have been different.
September 16, 2007 10:40 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on September 16, 2007 10:40
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September 13, 2007 6:19 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on September 13, 2007 18:19
You have to trust Gawda
To help youah
Get the things in lifeah
That you really want to havah
Trust Gawda!
Can someone give me a trust Gawda?
Give your lasta dollarah to meah
And Gawda willa reward youah
With untold wealth and successah!
Give it upah!
Give it upah!
Everyone scream GIVE IT UPAH!!!
September 11, 2007 9:12 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on September 11, 2007 09:12
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July 2, 2007 4:18 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 2, 2007 04:18
The world needs less religion. It comforts the delusional. With the god theory, what would one think of an adult who still belives in Santa Claus ? When one can not prove what believes, it is called a delusion. Take religion out of the picture and you will cut the world's delusion in half and it would become a safer place to live in. Joseph Cambell said ; religion is mythology gone crazy.
June 3, 2007 5:44 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 3, 2007 05:44
Randy: god is real, yes, but he is a man made fiction. Enjoy deluding yourself. I personally love creation, and savour every minute I have. Oh yeah, Jesus never existed and Jerry Falwell was a fraud too.
May 23, 2007 5:31 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 23, 2007 17:31
I once heard an atheist say, "I would rather go to Hell than go to Heaven [with a God that would allow all the things that go on in this earth].
Non-believer I must tell you that God didn't make the world the way it is. We live in a fallen creation. Investigate, search, learn. God is real.
3. Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4. And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation. II Peter 3:3-4
Consider yourself warned.
But also consider yourself within the reach of God because he tells us...
9. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
May 10, 2007 10:16 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 10, 2007 10:16
Thank you, Fellow Defender of Truth.
I was wondering if anyone else responding had actually read the post.
April 21, 2007 9:32 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2007 21:32
Henry-
Very well stated and you are absolutely right. The only thing I would differ on with you is that I would assume that you belive belief in God requires Faith and only Faith. Where I believe belief in God requires Faith but is backed up with reason. I don't believe it requires Faith alone.
I enjoyed the discussion greatly and am sure I'll catch up with you on another one of these blogs.
April 21, 2007 3:29 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2007 15:29
Heraclitus
Belief in God requires some faith but I would argue his existence can be almost proved and doesn't require faith alone.
You are right in that its virtually (I would say its actually impossible) impossible to prove the non-existence of anything which in and of itself discredits Victor Stengel. I can make a pretty healthy stab at disproving lots of things but is really poor science. Science proves things not the other way around.
April 21, 2007 3:24 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2007 15:24
BigD what you say makes clear sense.
and of course,
the Free Will argument is the best response AnYONE has come up with to the Problem of Evil, so you are in good company.
Though I think we agree that belief in God must be based on Faith, i think there are more or less rational faiths. Some belief systems in God make a lot of sense if you buy the premise, some make none.
take a look at this from a Catholic website (the catholics have done the most in depth thinking on this issue through the ages:
"The problem of evil is the most serious problem in the world. It is also the one serious objection to the existence of God.
When Saint Thomas Aquinas wrote his great Summa Theologica, he could find only two objections to the existence of God, even though he tried to list at least three objections to every one of the thousands of theses he tried to prove in that great work. One of the two objections is the apparent ability of natural science to explain everything in our experience without God; and the other is the problem of evil.
More people have abandoned their faith because of the problem of evil than for any other reason. It is certainly the greatest test of faith, the greatest temptation to unbelief. And it's not just an intellectual objection. We feel it. We live it. That's why the Book of Job is so arresting.
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0019.html
April 21, 2007 3:13 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2007 15:13
I think you read more into my post than I meant.
I agree with Henry for instance:
many smart people believe in God
and many smart people don't.
The smart people who Do believe
that God has to be taken on Faith.
That his existence can't be proved from evidence.
I am just agreeing with that statement.
When Phantom tells me to "get real" however, I feel the need to point out that i AM relying on real observable evidence (or lack of it).
BTW
it is virtually impossible to prove the NON existence of anything. Try Unicorns. Can you prove that they DON't exist?
There actually is a reasonable book out by a scientist named Victor Stengel where he takes the position that he can JUST about disprove the existence of God. You may not agree with him, but he makes a pretty healthy stab at it (pardon the verb).
April 21, 2007 3:06 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2007 15:06
Henry James
Thank you for your insightful reply. Personally – as I tried to point out to Heraclitus – I think this is progress in debate.
See you do not believe Faith is rational. I completely understand that. It is definitely true that Faith must be involved. (Back to the supernatural argument – if God exists then obviously we could never understand it all and it would require Faith – not trying to argue any point here).
To me though I believe my faith is rational and even though I can’t explain everything most things as I see lead me to believe that God is more likely to exist then not. That is our difference of opinion and that is fine and good.
Now comes the hard part. You are correct, I believe, “if God …..” yes he could have prevented the boy from becoming mentally ill. He could also stop every major disaster that befalls human beings. He could create a perfect utopia and form our will to always follow his. BUT…
If God created human beings and gave them free will. And more than anything God wants us to love him and realize that if we followed his instructions life would be good. THEN there is no logical way for him to intervene in every day events involving human free will. For if he does that then we don’t freely love him.
It’s this view of God that allows for a rational faith. I do not believe in a God who wants to control all things. He wants us to love him because he is good but only if we are willing to do it from our own free choice. This is the view of God that often gets short changed here.
So in my opinion of God – he didn’t do anything obscene or incomprehensible (while yes his overall actions are by nature incomprehensible) he just let the world do its thing. Sometimes its tragic sometimes its beautiful. If we didn’t love God in both cases we would be loving him conditionally.
April 21, 2007 2:45 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2007 14:45
Heraclitus
This is the problem with most debates between believers and atheists. Typically though not always as my new friends Mr Mark and Henry James of demonstrated in this BLOG Atheists try to say see you have no proof so God doesn’t exist – I’m smart – you’re dumb – we can’t debate anything else. The same can probably be said in reverse of believers often times.
I would make the assertion that you have no proof that God does not exist. Maybe your vision of what God would be if you believed in God doesn’t exist. But you have no proof that an omniscient God does not exist. While I tend to think that more things than not, including my rationale, science, and nature do prove that God exists – I can’t prove it beyond every doubt to anyone who doesn’t want to believe it. Similarly I am quite certain that you have no proof that he doesn’t exist that would convince me beyond every doubt that he doesn’t exist.
My point, as I have tried to make earlier in this blog is that if we stop treating each other as ignorant, accept the fact that rational (and many irrational) people for millennia have debated this issue and move past the argument of just does he or doesn’t he exist (since I am pretty sure that won’t be resolved here) we might be able to engage in real debate and dialogue.
April 21, 2007 2:29 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2007 14:29
Thank you again for your explication, BigD.
I agree that many believers are very intelligent people.
I do not believe it is "rational" to believe. In fact, many believers acknowledge that their belief is based on Faith rather than rationality. I think it must be. Just my opinion.
But of course everyone is free to believe or not believe as they see fit.
If there IS a God, in any meaningful sense of God (created the world, can do pretty much whatever he wants)
as I noted above, it seems to me that
God created a world where
a boy became Insane
Not out of Free Will or choices he made to be Evil
(if God exists, Evil makes sense as a concept)
But because it was "God's Will" for reasons of his own that we can't understand,
He COULD have prevented the boy from going insane,
and
he therefore could have prevented this tragedy.
My original point was that to blame the Secularists for this tragedy is Obscene.
God is responsible.
If the tragic incident WAS obscene,
it was an "obscene act of God."
If one wants to avoid the provocative word "obscene"
we can at least say
"it was an imcomprehensible (by humans) act of God."
April 21, 2007 2:19 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2007 14:19
Phantom
in my logical system,
there is a difference between saying
"God exists because I have a burning feeling of certainty in my chest that he exists"
as, for instance, my Mormon friends do,
and saying
"I don't know if God exists (or for atheists, I don't believe that God exists)
because I have never seen any evidence that would tend to confirm his existence, just as I have never seen any evidence that tends to confirm the evidence of Unicorns."
Atheists like myself are open to convincing evidence. We just have not seen any, and have seen lots of contrary evidence.
Is that what you mean by "Get Real."? Rely on Real Evidence?
April 21, 2007 2:08 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2007 14:08
Heraclitis,
Almost as stupid as most people's arguments that "if I say that God doesn't exist, then He doesn't."
Get real dude!
April 21, 2007 1:25 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2007 13:25
Henry James
Perfectly understandable that it doesn’t satisfy all – and of course it is a complex WHOPPER issue.
The problem I hoped to clarify wasn’t the problem of evil – its that on blogs like these often times believers are put on the side of if they believe in God then they have to believe he did this. Just as they are put on the side that if they believe in God they must dis-avow science. My point is there is a logical and reasoned way of approaching the issue as a believer.
I would venture to say most believers would not make the assertion that this boy chose to be mentally ill. His actions can be debated in how much choice he had but most would not argue that being mentally ill was his choice.
You are right an omniscient God that created the universe did forsee this. Does that mean he should have stopped it though? That is the big question and leads to the Problem of Evil and the ability to explain it. Thus in that sense you were not Absurd. The absurdity came from what appeared to be an either or stance in God either doesn’t exist or he is Evil or in your words obscene.
We can continue to disagree on the existence of God and the role of Free Will and the Problem of Evil – that’s good debate. I just ask that you realize that many believers are also rationale in their belief system.
April 21, 2007 1:24 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2007 13:24
Thank you for clarifying, BigD.
Your solving of the Problem of evi - it takes a supernatural god to understand a supernatural phenomenon - does now make logical sense to me.
it is reasonable for it to satisfy you.
there are many who understand your argument but do NOT find it satisfying. That includes some believers who decide to live with their problem, and some atheists for whom the problem makes believing in a Just God impossible. Smart people have taken both postions throughout history.
But most agree that it is a WHOPPER of a problem.
It makes little sense to most people to say that this mentally ill boy *chose* through free will to be mentally ill and commit these murders.
The universe that God created resulted in his actions. An omniscient God would have forseen this.
God may be torturing us this way for a reason of his own that we can't understand,
as he did with Job (the most eloquent posing of the problem)
For many of us, we can't believe in a God who acts (or doesn't act) for those kinds of reasons, WHATEVER they are.
Hence, the NON absurdity of my original example. You are free to take a different point of view of course.
April 21, 2007 1:06 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2007 13:06
Sydney Chuggles North
Whose prayer clothes are you talking about? I might have missed that post and would like to read it.
If you are talking about most of the Christian world then it doesn't make sense. Most Christians don't object to any sort of medical help for physical or mental health. Just because they belive God is also beneficial doesn't mean most of them don't also believe medicine is beneficial and has its place as well.
April 21, 2007 12:36 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2007 12:36
Henry James
I wasn't trying to prove anything about the existence of God. I am not trying to play some sort of mind game with you. I wasn't debating you on whether or not God exists. Even with my limited education I would assume that to make that argument would take a little more than a short blog.
I’ll try to clarify my point, so that even someone like me can understand it.
You made the assertion that if God Exists this was an obscene act by God. Insinuating that if God Does exist then he is either evil or incompetent (right out of your Problem of Evil – imagine that). My point was this is not the only explanation nor the explanation of most people who believe in God. My explanation was people have free will separate from God and you chose to make it seem that anyone that believed in God did not have a valid explanation of such events.
You then complicated the point I was trying to make by bringing in the entire Problem of Evil. I simply clarified that if we continued on the theory that God Existed (from your first argument) then the reason that there has been so much written and thought of over time about the Problem of Evil is exactly because it can not be simply explained. If God doesn’t exist then there is no problem because Evil per se can’t exist (of course then we would get into the definition of evil).
You tried to use the Problem of Evil to say that my insights were in valid and uneducated. I simply gave you a reason that the problem of evil is so complex. And a reason that someone can believe in God and not blame God for the actions of humans or the universe.
April 21, 2007 12:26 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2007 12:26
OH!!
I understand, BigD.
If I ASSUME that God exists,
then, by logic,
HE MUST EXIST.
neat scheme.
why didn't we greeks ever think of that?
April 21, 2007 12:07 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2007 12:07
BigD
to clarify
20 million references when you Google
"the problem of Evil"
that problem which you think is no problem.
April 21, 2007 11:48 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2007 11:48
Thanks BIGD for your question.
As the next step in your education, look up
"Begging the Question."
Your hypothetical is:
Assume that
1. God Exists
2. Evil Exists
BigD then sates:
3. Evil is a Supernatural Characteristic.
THEREFORE:
Voila: it requires someone Supernatural to explain it. We assume you mean God.
You are attempting to
PROVE that God exists
by
ASSUMING that God exists.
Are you able to see the idiocy of this argument?
You DO need to educate yourself before attempting to engage in serious dialog with people who know what they are talking about.
BTW, if you don't like Wikipedia,
there are literally 20 MILLION!!! other references when you Google it.
You truly have no shame. One has to admire that, sort of.
April 21, 2007 11:45 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2007 11:45
Henry James -
Thank you for trying to assist in my education. I never will claim to know everything. If we wan't to get into sarcasm I guess we can do that too - the restauraunt does sound good though. I am not sure I would feel eductaed though if I relied on Wiki for all the answers.
How about one simple questions though.
Hypothetically if God does exist and evil does exist, wouldn't I be correct in stating that as a matter of metaphysics that since evil would be a supernatural characteristic that it would require someone or thing that is also supernatural to fully explain or understand it?
April 21, 2007 11:34 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2007 11:34
Henry James:
Well I assume when you post on here you are open for criticism and comment. I believe that is the point. My opinions may not be as weighty as yours but I think most will see that I do make a few valid points.
The Problem of Evil is not the same as saying that if God exist then he did this. That simply is not the case.
Yes the theory of evil is quite complex beyond the likes of both of us I would say. In fact if there is evil then that would be a supernatural characteristic. And by its very nature only someone supernatural could completely and totally explain and understand it.
But it is easy to explain this action without blaming God. God created the world. He gave men free will. At any time and any moment I can choose to do whatever I want. God will not stop me. Many times he has given instructions in various ways of what we should do but he will not prevent us from doing anything. Same works with physics and science.
See many people who don’t believe in God assume to believe in God you have to throughout science. This is not the case. God is a scientific God and allows things to happen naturally. Whether it be a tsunami or mental illness. These are simply the characteristics of the world and science. He does not got in the way to force your hand. What kind of relationship would that be?
Please bear with me for just a little longer. If God really wants people to love him above all things and to do what he is asked, what kind of God would he be if he forced us to do it? Its like saying my wife really loves me if I forced her to marry me by threatening her life or her families? How would I ever know if she loved me? Only if she freely choose to do so without me forcing her hand.
Your version of the world would be that if God does exist then the world should be a perfect paradise and no one would have free will?
I do thank you for the response though – I do like the conversation. Unlike a lot of the recent posts I think that the WP and NewsWeek do a great service by having such an open blog to allow people to express their views. Too many other sites hide everyones comments and only post one side of an opinion for all to see.
April 21, 2007 11:20 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2007 11:20
The Problem Of Evil
In what is perhaps a vain attempt to assist in your education, my dear BIGD,
I refer you to Wikipedia for a beginning primer on The Problem of Evil.
Type it in the search, and you will get a sketch going back to Epicurus (I am sure you are familiar with his thought) of the issue, and it continues to be a problem up to the present, except for you.
Epicurus ran a Greek restaurant in Brooklyn during the 1950s.
April 21, 2007 11:08 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2007 11:08
Mark of Richmond:
If you believe that this group of people you site are fanatical religious right and that they are so powerful you must also believe that the anti-religious liberals are also immensely powerful and scheming behind the scenes. I think that both the left and right are ridiculous when they try and say that the other side is somehow this underhand secretive operation trying to ruin everything in America. Look both sides try to make themselves look right above most everything else. It’s time we set aside trying to prove we are right in politics and do what’s best for everyone instead of not being able to agree with someone just because they are on the other side of the aisle from you.
Let’s balance out your suggested reading with Ann Coulter’s book. That should make us about balanced in our reading shouldn’t it?
April 21, 2007 11:04 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2007 11:04
BIGD
It is fortunate that, though I am America's foremost literary critic, that I don't take offense easily.
To have my critical views characterized as "absurd" by the likes of you is, well, absurd...
Have you EVER hear of The Problem of Evil?
Thousands of learned and serious theologians and Jesuits, some even more learned than I, have dealt with it.
Google it: short version, how could a just God create a world where innocent children are killed in tusnamis etc.
You think it is an easy problem to solve. I am not surprised.
Many of the greatest minds in history have found it insurmountable. They clearly do not include you in their number.
Best wishes.
Love
Henry
April 21, 2007 11:01 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2007 11:01
The Worst of Humanity
Thanks for the quote Henry.
I would say that the Worst of Humanity
is represented by Powerful Leaders
who Lie to their people and the World
in order to Start a War
that kills 500,000 more people than otherwise would have died
and destabilizes the world in a profoundly damaging way.
Not a mentally ill, out of control, 23 year old boy.
Just my opinion.
April 21, 2007 10:56 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2007 10:56
Mr Mark - you are right that was me. My apologies for putting your name in there.
April 21, 2007 10:55 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2007 10:55
Henry James:
In your response to Shawn you stated “If there is a GOD, God caused it. and therefore caused the tragedy. and you blame the secularists. it is, again pardon my French, obscene to do so. if there is a god, it is an obscene act of god.”
This is absurd. Look if you don’t believe in God that is fine and you can make your case for that. But seriously you should at least have a vague understanding of what the majority of those who believe in God believe. Belief in God does not mean you think God controls everything like a big chess match. That is the whole point of free will. It’s a tough concept it seems for some who don’t believe in God but it’s not that hard to acknowledge. I believe in God but I don’t blame things that people do on God.
E Favorite:
You stated: “I bet if we find out that the shooter and his family were devout Christians, you'll be the first to say, "But he wasn't really a Christian." I notice, reading through these discussions, that this is the latest cop-out. Whenever Christians do anything abhorrent (e.g. the Inquisition, the Crusades) , the response is - "Oh, they were false Christians - not the real thing." Somehow, I don’t think Jesus would approve of this behavior.”
Doesn’t your last sentence prove the point? If Jesus wouldn’t approve of the behavior, wouldn’t that make it anti Christian?
April 21, 2007 10:54 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2007 10:54
Bush's Follow Up to Parsley
I inadvertantly caught a snatch of our leader's weekly radio address this morning.
Now of course he didn't WRITE the speech, but he said this (while tripping over the words, especially "educated" later)
"This tragedy showed the worst of humanity, and the best."
So, let me get this straight:
a mentally ill young man represents the "worst of humanity," not a tragedy as well?
Is this not in the key of our insane Reverend Parsley?
April 21, 2007 10:53 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2007 10:53
Allow me to offer my voice in support of those who are appalled that reputable news sources like the Post or Newsweek would publish the insane rant - and that is all it is - of someone like Rod Parsley. The violence at Virgina Tech had absolutely nothing to do with sin or with turning against God. Nothing. That so many people in this country would turn to such inane, absurd explanations to deal with their grief is just incomprehensible to me. Have our mainstream religious beliefs really caused us to be this far removed from reality?
April 21, 2007 7:43 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2007 07:43
People who believe that anointed prayer cloths are superior to modern medicine should practice what they preach. You should foreswear all modern medicine --- no antibiotics, no surgery, no attended birth, no modern diagnostic equipment for you.
Otherwise you're nothing but hypocrites.
April 21, 2007 4:16 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2007 04:16