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Who need the Bible, is a sick!!! Mental sick!
The Bible is a for people, who liked to kill
another people. The Bible is of Murgersbook!

Thank You! A T H E I S T !

Hallo!
Why I am one Atheist? Because I hate the war, and
I hate a Violenc, Slavery, Genocide, Rassism and
Vandalism. Hitler,s Solutions. The Bible is a most criminal book on the Earth. And this is a
jewis-story!!! In Internet we have a big Bible -
propaganda, and a Warpropaganda to.
I see, american Soldiers in Iraq with the Bible
together, or american Soldiers in Vietnam with
the Bible, or german Soldiers in Second World
War with the Bible. The Bible is a Militarybook.
Very important for Israelspolitik today and for
Apartheidspolitik in Palestine to!
We have in Internet Hitler,s Bible to, and Hitler
du this, a same Solution as in Old Testament.
I do not see a Diference between Genocide in the
Bible and Hitlers Holocaust!

But I see Barak Obama, Clinton, Bush and Hitler
with the Bible to!!! Very important Aspeckt.
Wer is a Diference between Obamas Bible and
Hitler,s Bible?
I do not see a Diference! I do not see Diference
between Martin Luthers King Bible and Hitler,s
Bibel?!!!
We have Rassism in the Bible, and Luther King
believed in the Bible????????????????????????
He haved one Dream? Witch Dream? Rassism in
the Bible? Slavery in the New Testament?
Martin Luther King was one stupid Man!

Most israels and american Soldiers needed today
the Bible? Obama to, Angela Merkel to!!!

Wer is a Diference between Tutu and Hitler?
Between Obama and Hitler?

Thank You!!!

Did Jesus stand for Peace on Earth? No! The New
Testament is a Intoleranz and War Propaganda to.
We have a Slaverypropaganda in New Testament!
Prof. Dr. Franz Buggle: "Denn sie wissen nicht,
was sie glauben." The Book talking about War-
Propaganda, about Genocide, Rassism, Vandalism
and Slavery in Old and New Testament.

Thank You! M. S.

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Isn't it a waste of time to split hairs over a stone age document that was changed so many times no one knows what was really said? Folk tales are folk tales are folk tales.

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The parts that I previously read were real page burners. Thanks WaPo for re-serializing the Book.

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LD I largely agree with you, but as to stories not written down for hundreds of years, that is more applicable to the Old rather than the New Testament, which covers a shorter time period and was written closer to it by people who actually were involved in their recollections. I don't condone slavery, but it was a reality of that world, even as it remains unfortunately a reality if our own. I think a valuable insight into that is offered in St. Paul's Letter to Philemon in the New Testament. Onesimus, whose name means "useful" was to become one of the important bishops of the early Church. That Russian Rabbi was very wise, and must have been well educated. I often refer to the Bible as a Pearl or a Coat of Many Colours, the layers or strands of the cloth built and woven into something of beauty and complexity from things that are irritating and diverse, but must be seen as a whole to be appreciated. There are definite links in this to Jesus' story of the Pearl of Great Price in the New Testament and Joseph's Coat of Many Colours in the Old. Allegorical an metagogical interpretation of Scripture are time honoured approaches to understanding.

LD I largely agree with you, but as to stories not written down for hundreds of years, that is more applicable to the Old rather than the New Testament, which covers a shorter time period and was written closer to it by people who actually were involved in their recollections. I don't condone slavery, but it was a reality of that world, even as it remains unfortunately a reality if our own. I think a valuable insight into that is offered in St. Paul's Letter to Philemon in the New Testament. Onesimus, whose name means "useful" was to become one of the important bishops of the early Church. That Russian Rabbi was very wise, and must have been well educated. I often refer to the Bible as a Pearl or a Coat of Many Colours, the layers or strands of the cloth built and woven into something of beauty and complexity from things that are irritating and diverse, but must be seen as a whole to be appreciated. There are definite links in this to Jesus' story of the Pearl of Great Price in the New Testament and Joseph's Coat of Many Colours in the Old. Allegorical an metagogical interpretation of Scripture are time honoured approaches to understanding.

Many years ago I asked a friend, a Sabra, from Isreal a similar question. She said that her father a Rabi from Russia had told her that most stories were simple explanations to tell us about our history. Such as the world being created in 7 days.
This made sense to me and I believe that many of the contradictions that are in the new testament is because they are stories told through the years and were not written for several hundreds of years. And they were written by people from various parts of the middle east and the Meditrainian area.
Something like the whisper game we played as children passing a sentence from one person to another until the originator could hardly recognize it for the original. They are guides for humans to use in daily life
I agree with some of the postings here but I can not condone slavery.

If indeed religion and scripture is all myth and fairy tale (and I certainly would not grant that premise on the basis of the proofs that exist) is not a vision of hope and love more positive than the cold accounts of corporate greed? Despite the distorted picture people portray based on their fundamental ignorance of the message of scripture, there is a compelling message of hope, love, and justice at the very centre of the Gospel. Illiteracy is not a trait germane to any of the people of the Book, although it was found in pagans. Jesus did read and write, but His message was for the eyes, ears, and hearts of the people. There were more than enough Scriptures. Jesus said, "They have Moses and the Prophets, let them hear them." There were other writers who mentioned the crucifixion and resurrection. It was a world in which such stories were rife, a world inclined to respond with a great,"So what?" The so what however in Jesus case was lives transformed in ways that made martyrdom an incentive rather than a deterrent to faith. The marvel of the Gospel is not that it was written so many years after, but that it was written from faith to faith. There is nothing there to exploit the gullible or credulous. If it is a hoax it is one composed with utter transparency. An execution is hardly the propaganda to be expected of the usual hero of a movement. St. Paul calls the Cross a scandal and a stumbling block, but goes on to say that if Christ be not raised up, we are of all men most to be pitied.

St. John's Gospel was by someone who was VERY intimately acquainted with Jesus and knew his way around Jerusalem and the Temple (his writing corresponds to the tractate Middoth and the archaeological record). John was apparently about ten years old at the time of the crucifixion (the High Priest admitted him to the Judgement Hall, attesting both his age and status as a ten year old and a priest close to the line of those offering sacrifice and incense, the Romans permitted him to stand with the womenfolk, again attesting his status as a non-person in their eyes, his place at the last supper is that of the child who asks the four questions seated on Jesus' lap). Although John's contemporary Mark may have relied on him for his gospel chronology and Luke learned some of his stories from John, John writing later saw no reason to strictly agree with them, Matthew, or the letters of Paul. John wrote with authority and intimacy. John's Revelation was written perhaps forty years earlier than the Gospel and letters. Although the Greek of Revelation is atrocious and full of Aramaicisms, computer analysis shows consistency in vocabulary and imagery and correspondence of theological language and usage, this is easily explained by the lack of an amanuensis during the Patmos exile as well as an early date, perhaps in the Neronian persecution although the book would have been reprised in the Decian persecution without substantive change in language or tone. (John may still have been alive then, living well over the age of one hundred and twenty. He was known to several second century authors.)

We are fascinated by myths, but myths hold the best clues to the deepest truths. The resurrection appeared in the texts a whole lot earlier than many suppose. Jesus and the original disciples didn't write any "new" scriptures because they held the scriptures already written to be sufficient. It is only after the destruction of the Temple and the expansion of Christianity in a gentile world that the Gospel must be told to a new age without the reference points of Jerusalem and the sites associated with the crucifixion and resurrection. Judaism responded to this same crisis first with the Council of Javne (Jamnia) in 90 CE which established the Tanakh, the canonical Hebrew Bible, and then with the codification of the Talmud by Judah ha-Nasi in 200 CE. The earliest Christian Scriptures are the Epistles, written between 40 and 90 CE. There may or may not have been an Aramaic Matthew, which might date from about the time of the writing of Mark, but Mark's Gospel is held to be the earliest, written between 65 and 70 CE. Despite being decades after Jesus life and teaching, it is not as divorced from the actual events as some ignorant people might think and try to portray above. Although Jesus wrote not a single word, there were collections of His sayings which were told and retold with an accuracy which comes from great reverence. Although the Synoptic Gospels are from a second generation, Mark relies on the narrative of Simon Peter, and Luke relies on numerous primary sources such as John, the beloved disciple and Mary the mother of Jesus, Mary Magdalene, and Paul, as well as Mark and Mark's sources (there is some evidence that Mark also used his contemporary John). While the letters of Peter and the Pastoral epistles are late, the Epistles of James and Jude are quite likely by two apostles who were intimately acquainted with Jesus and written very early. The writings of John present many problems to scholars, not the least of which are the facts that they are quite late in their present form and do not agree with the synoptics in their chronology. I personally have no problem, since computer analysis shows the consistency of the vocabulary and correspondence of the theology and specific use of images and terms. The rough quality of the Greek of Revelation may have to do with its early composition in the reign of the emperor Nero, with John in exile writing without an amanuensis, the compelling images and apocalyptic history would not have undergone any great revision in a retelling during the Decian persecution. The beautiful Greek of John's gospel and the letters have much to do with the passage of many years and the old Patriarch surrounded by many followers fluent in Greek. John may have been only ten years old when he laid his head on Jesus' breast at the Last Supper and stood beneath the Cross with the womenfolk including Jesus' mother. John outlived all the other apostles to well over one hundred and twenty by many accounts. There were many second century Christian writers like Polycarp and Ignatius who knew him. John was known to the High Priest and was admitted to the Judgement Hall (Like his brother James he was a priest, but young enough not to stand in danger of being judged or crucified by the Romans who considered a ten year old not of the age of reason). John's geography of Jerusalem and the Temple accord perfectly with the Talmud tractate Middoth and archaeological findings, the other gospels don't. John's gospel matches the crucifixion to the sacrifice of the Passover lambs. John makes the Passion, Crucifixion, Resurrection, Ascension, and Pentecost one single event together with the Incarnation and Creation. The Gospel of John is a Book of Signs. He speaks of the necessity of the Sacraments of Baptism and the Holy Eucharist without specifically relating their history mentioned in the other Gospels and Paul's letter to the Corinthians. You simply can't get closer to Jesus than John.

The Bible was constructed from stories handed down. In short, the Bible was written by man. Man is not infallible. Man's ego comes into play.
Throughout early man's experiences, there have been many tales of folklore from all regions of the globe. From these came Mythology. From Mythology came spirituality and religion.
Man is capable of many strories, some true, some not.
When man began to comprehend his surroundings, there were many things to not understand and many 'omens' to acknowledge, on land and in the heavens.

Because man is but a speck in the universe, the larger story is how it all started. One may call this unfathomable energy 'God'.
I think it makes no diference what you call it. In my opinion, the rest was random, catastrophic evolution.
The moral should be: 'no man knows the will of the origin of the universe(s), so no man should propose to.

The Bible and the Quran are nothing more then a compilation of myths and fables carried and brought forward over the centuries. There were many scholars at the time of Jesus (if he existed at all) so why is it that not a single word was writen about him at the time of his supposed existence on earth? Wouldn't a resurection or arising from the dead have been significant enough to write about? It wasn't until many decades later that anything appeared in text. In addition, there is not a single word written by Jesus himself at the time of his existence. If he existed could he have been illiterate as so many were at the time?

The fables and myths in both the old and new testements as well as the Quran can be traced to earlier periods throughout history.

All religion today continues to state that it is searching for the truth yet all their teachings are based on faith and not the basis of fact. Isn't it time the world's population recognized religion for what it is; a belief structured on myths, superstitions and fables that have been repeated throughout the centuries.

We had better learn or we will destroy humanity in a nuclear war over a disagreement about a bunch of fairly tales

Hello! great idea of color of this siyte!

Didn't the Killing Fields of Cambodia teach you anything about the fallibility of mankind? Or have you conveniently forgotten that they were brought about by atheists seeking the dissolution of all religion.

When you speak of the fallacy of religion you might as well speak of the fallacy of history. Man lives by many myths, religions, and beliefs. Don't forget that there was never a nuclear bomb ever built in a church, mosque, or synagogue. And for every war, persecution, or injustice it has ultimately been a religious conscience which has called it into question and led to its end. Your fables may be newer, but they are no better.

The Bible is an interesting fictional publication. As was stated..there are a number of conflicting statements made. It is also interesting to note that most of the writing of the Bible came decades after Christ was supposedly on earth. It is also interesting that not a single word was written by Christ while he was here on earth (assuming he ever existed).

Isn't it about time that our educators began to question the value of participating in a religion and to question the basic concept of a god or gods as well as the Bible? We all ask for fact or data to support everything else but why do we not ask for factual data to support the existence of a god? To accept something as important as this solely on faith with no basis of fact is just not rationale. It doesn't do any good to ignore the subject since religion is a major cause of conflict around the world. How can we accept a god and religion on faith alone? If someone told a wife or husband that their spouse was having an affair they would ask for proof but most people fail to ask for or expect proof when someone mentions a god, an immaculate conception, or angels floating around with wings. For two thousand years we have had religious conflict and still look to fables or stories written over 1400 years ago in the case of the Koran and two thousand years ago with the new testament without question. Have we not learned anything about the fallacy of religion over the last two thousand years? We have learned many other things over the centuries but have failed to question myths and beliefs that are thousands of year old . We must start to question the validity of gods and religion or we may find ourselves living with the disastrous consequences of our failure to ask these questions. The world may yet be destroyed using nuclear weapons in a religious war.. We can no longer afford to ignore the numerous conflicts around the world among religious groups and the radical thinking associated with so many religions. All people on earth had better wake up and learn to question their religions and their beliefs before it is too late. What concerns me is that it may already be too late.

Flying Horse
“what are we using God for now?” Therein lays the problem. Just mull that over --- we are using God --- It’s nothing new, humankind has been at it since those ancient days. Of course it is 180 degrees off the divine path - or - actually we are on the path, but moving in the wrong direction, hence the human head on collisions (genocides, wars, violence, injustice, and illogical thinking) continue against our fellow man.

Persons of faith, whether Jew, Christian, or Islam, do themselves a great disservice when they insist on taking the Torah, Bible, or Koran as 100% literally the Word of God. All these books contain valuable information about God, that can help and guide a person through their life. But they are books written by humans in a particular historic context, and then copied and recopied (perhaps with changes and additions overa period of thousands of years). You cannot, as some suggest, take the good parts, and ignore the rest. The inconsisancies may be important; the context is vital to interpret and understand the meaning. But one has to remember, God may have inspired and guided these writers, they may be holy texts, but they cannot be considered infaliable, if only because they were written by faliable humans with political motives, societal pressures... so many factors. Religion is a powerful tool in the hands of a leader, and there are people who care only for power and wealth. That these books have even survived the passage of time must mean something. But to allow the genocides, wars, violence, injustice, and illogical thinking to prevail in our age just because the Torah or Bible or Koran tells us so... what are we using God for now?

If we look at the Bible we are looking at a human document, composed from divergent traditions. It is so foreign to many that they are more familiar with something someone told them about it than they are with the actual text. Ignorance is hardly a very good place to begin a discussion of faith. Belief in God requires no precipitous leaps. I would hold that blind faith is in fact no faith at all, but rather senseless credulity. I have no problem whatsoever with the provable fact that David didn't kill Goliath, Goliath was killed by the Bethlehemite Elhanan. I have problems with the rejection of this as part of the corpus of David stories with perfectly logical historical and legendary associations. Despite the measurements we are given we have no concept whatever of what a giant is or whether in fact such a human ever existed,or was he like the smooth stones, five in number, David picked up from the river bed a metaphorical concept?(1 Sam. 17:40)

If we look at the Bible we are looking at a human document, composed from divergent traditions. It is so foreign to many that they are more familiar with something someone told them about it than they are with the actual text. Ignorance is hardly a very good place to begin a discussion of faith. Belief in God requires no precipitous leaps. I would hold that blind faith is in fact no faith at all, but rather senseless credulity. I have no problem whatsoever with the provable fact that David didn't kill Goliath, Goliath was killed by the Bethlehemite Elhanan. I have problems with the rejection of this as part of the corpus of David stories with perfectly logical historical and legendary associations. Despite the measurements we are given we have no concept whatever of what a giant is or whether in fact such a human ever existed,or was he like the smooth stones, five in number, David picked up from the river bed a metaphorical concept?(1 Sam. 17:40)

If we take the question of slavery all the way back, we find Abram's protest to God in Genesis 15, "You've made me childless and my only heir is Eliezer of Damascus, a slave born in my house." So slaves in the covenant community of Israel had the right of inheritancce

We all seem to know about Christian martyrs in the Colosseum, how many know that there were far more JEWISH martyrs who died there? It may, in fact, have been the alliance of early Christians with Jews which led to their initial persecution by the Romans. There were quite a number of Christians who took part in the Bar Kochba Rebellion, and offerings from Christians throughout the ancient world were sent to the support of Jerusalem, as is reported in Acts and Paul's letters. The Pontius Pilate story in the Passion narrative has many of the marks of a later rewrite and cover-up.

Much of what the Bible reports is historical reality, sordid as that often is. Included in that is the Genocide directed in Deuteronomy and practised in Joshua, Judges, 1 Samuel and Chronicles (both books) among other places. Slavery, polygamy, ritual murder, cannibalism and a host of other things are found within the pages of the Bible. There are apparent contradictions and discordant stories frequently appear side by side, if not inextricably intertwined. Some would call these things "errors", but I believe it is their omission which would in fact be an error. I fully believe the Bible to be God's word, but would radically differ with fundamentalists about its interpretation. Many of the things they would call "God's Law" are precisely the things Jesus referred to as the traditions of men, condemning those who taught them in that manner. Did a Bible exist before Israel's Covenant at Mt. Sinai? How much was read into and interpreted from that Covenant in the following centuries? Who were the slaves who came up out of Egypt, especially those enumerated as members of those twelve tribes? What was their true relationship to/with all the other peoples of the Promised Land? We know for a fact that the Torah was codified by Ezra the Scribe after the Babylonian Exile, how much of it, in fact did Moses ever lay eyes on? Both Judah haNasi and Moses Maimonides are exceptionally fine commentators, working over opinions and arguments of countless other scribes, why is so little of their work read or understood by Christian scholars?

Much of what the Bible reports is historical reality, sordid as that often is. Included in that is the Genocide directed in Deuteronomy and practised in Joshua, Judges, 1 Samuel and Chronicles (both books) among other places. Slavery, polygamy, ritual murder, cannibalism and a host of other things are found within the pages of the Bible. There are apparent contradictions and discordant stories frequently appear side by side, if not inextricably intertwined. Some would call these things "errors", but I believe it is their omission which would in fact be an error. I fully believe the Bible to be God's word, but would radically differ with fundamentalists about its interpretation. Many of the things they would call "God's Law" are precisely the things Jesus referred to as the traditions of men, condemning those who taught them in that manner. Did a Bible exist before Israel's Covenant at Mt. Sinai? How much was read into and interpreted from that Covenant in the following centuries? Who were the slaves who came up out of Egypt, especially those enumerated as members of those twelve tribes? What was their true relationship to/with all the other peoples of the Promised Land? We know for a fact that the Torah was codified by Ezra the Scribe after the Babylonian Exile, how much of it, in fact did Moses ever lay eyes on? Both Judah haNasi and Moses Maimonides are exceptionally fine commentators, working over opinions and arguments of countless other scribes, why is so little of their work read or understood by Christian scholars?

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m169k

Why would anyone believe any rationale for human avarice came from God? All the text under discussion was written by men who wanted land, power and enslavement of anyone they could overcome. People will do and say anything to get what they want. The Bible is an interesting historical document but its doubtful to me that's anymore the word of God than this post.

Aha! 4th watch: JWest and I are quite congruent in our appraisal of the Way. I find that the Pop Christianity of the American mega-Temple and the dreary Calvanist at the other extreme are just not in touch with the true kernel of the Teaching. That kernel is to be found in the Beatitudes and is further supported by looking past the Greek and Roman Churches and finding out how the Levantine Aramaic churches expressed the Jesus story.

The ribald fiction and faith by committee that comes through the Roman Church has had its day. I have traveled into some remote spots and I have come across some surprisingly simple and effective practitioners of a form of Christianity that does not get much press and is rejected as heresy if it is commented on at all.

Jesus spoke to the Way humans are connected. They are connected in Spirit and the totality of that Spirit is . . . God-like.

"Why did God let that guy shoot all those people? It has to be because they threw God out of the schools"

How silly!? How juvenile!?

He Presence was rejected by those who shout the loudest about the atheist and those Godless Humanist. When the myths that are created come flying back in the face of the many, there is but one big "Duh?".

This is true for me. Your choice of myth may be different. Please. Do no harm!

LB

JWest
From my previous comments you know my faith is not in any religion, but in the the person of Christ. Yes, There has been terrible injustices done in the name of Christianity, it should not have happened. So why did it happen? I think it follows the same pattern that was illustrated in my previous post, (leap of faith Christian witness to satanist) just change the circumstances, do you see it?
That is not to say that God will not raise a nation or man up to accomplish his sovereign purpose. In 732 Islam was on fire and consuming the better part of the then known world.
It was convert or die. A much smaller force led by Charles Martel at Tours France stood up to and defeated the entire nation of Islam, twice.
You know Christians have been killed since the inception. It continues today, China, N. Korea, Sudan, Indonesia- - -. These Christians are not warring against anyone, yet they die daily.
Are some Christians out of line, absolutely. Pick any other group, religious or not, and you have to say the same.
What should the Christian church look like today? It should be as it was before man contaminated it. Pliny’s letter to Trajan and Trajan’s response gives us a glimpse of that early church.
There is a better way to deal with each other. We must change; I cannot change you or anyone else. The only person I can change is myself. For most this leap of faith is too far. This concept is getting to the heart of Christianity.

OK Then will just call it blind faith. I believe in evolution. Science has done way too much that cannot be denied even by the most strident believer to refute. Christianity in its hypocrisy uses carbon dating to prove its points but refutes it when it is used to prove an anti-christian points. Can anyone say have your cake and eat it too. What ever you wish to call how you've come across what you believe doesn't matter. It is fluid from person to person. You believe because the bible says so. I don't believe because the bible doesn't say so. I don't buy into the whole of christianity because of its violence. Because of its insistence that it is the only truth. Man created god in his image so everything man does god does. All the violence that is religion is man's violence. All the harm religion has brought is man's harm and it will continue until we wake up and say enough. There has got to be a better way of dealing with one another then to say my god is bigger than your god and you are going to fry in hell forever. There is no truth in violence, only violence. And for the most part of our know history religion has brought violence. 40 million people died because of the crusades and inquisitions. And millions more died since. So to believe in god takes a great leap of faith to overcome all the violence that goes with it.

JWest

The leap of faith you describe is not the one I speak of. Let me illustrate mine better,then we will look at yours.

Leap of Faith- Sometimes what believers call a leap of faith is nothing more than the created believer telling the Creator God what to do, how to do it and when to do it.
This would be like the clay telling the Potter how to fashion the vessel.
A good example of this is when a Christian decided to take the Gospel message to a group of satanist. Before leaving he/she prayed “Lord I am going to these people with the firey two edged sword that is your word, I know you will give me the victory—amen”.
This Christian is telling God what the plan is, while the Lord is saying you are not the one to witness to these people, I have not prepared you ,this is not my plan for you ,or for the satanist ,don’t go. The person does not listen and takes a leap of faith.You can guess the outcome, the Christian ends up discouraged and feeling abandoned, while the satanist experienced a very ineffective Gospel witness.
This does not reflect well on Christianity , and was not God’s will. It happens because people(believers,and non-believers)refuse to accept the Lord’s authority into their lives.
People can believe in God yet struggle their entire life to obey Him.To say I believe does not require very much on my part, but to be a follower of Christ demands action from me.

Leap of Faith-The examples you mention are miracles, For some, miracles are an obstacle in believing the Bible.For me they actually confirm it to be the word of God.
The first sentence in the Bible is a very large miracle.You either believe it or not.
Did God create, or is He just a burglar snatching away evolutions glory?
I believe in the Creator God, my earthly common sense tells me the earth that I stand on is His creation.My belief in the first sentence of the Bible tells me miracles like (your examples) are true.
Some people call most anything unusual a miracle. Such as—A close call on the freeway had to be a miracle,-- The rent is due and an unexpected check comes in,they could call that a miracle too.
You used the right word (supernatural),when God moves supernaturally in the natural world a miracle occurs. The documented miracles are not an end in themselves, they direct our attention outside the natural world showing us the supernatural one.
What I mean is when Christ healed the sick He gave us a preview of a Kingdom where there is no sickness,--When He raised the dead it was the preview telling us in His Kingdom there will be no dying.
Don’t think I don’t have questions, I do, some have been resolved, others have not. Questions are good, God welcomes them.

In closing, I see no hurdle in believing the Bible, when you believe in the creator God~Gen.1:1.
Is the Christian life in this world easy? No, but Christ has made it possible.

I just hope the virgins image never appears on my tortilla, that’s one miracle I will swallow whole, no questions asked.

4TH WATCH

Did you just tell me that people that take the leap of faith are really just following the devil?? That leap is what's needed to believe in the whole supernatural concept. One has to give up earthly common sense to be able to believe in a supernatural god, Jesus, virgin birth, burning bushes, parting of the Red Sea, rising from the deads and just about everything involved with religious exceptance. When we are children we are told what to believe and try to reconcile this information as best we can. But when we grow up sometime a long the way one has to jump over that hurdle to really beleive it all and adhere to the teachings of their faith. The only way to get there is to jump.

JWest
Working long hours, so just a short comment for now.
Leap of faith--is not for me.Rather one step,one day at a time.
That leap of faith is one of satans' oldest tricks.Remember Jesus'forty days,nights temptation in the wilderness?
The evil one tempted Christ to take a leap of faith from the pinnacle of the temple He refused.
Many that take the so called leap in a certain direction depending on God to make it ok havent consulted with Him first,in a sense when we do this it is daring God to see it our way.It goes
back to those people who create a god of their own design,whom they always agree with,very easy for them to obey their imaginary god.

Gina

I can agree with your statement. I've watched several speeches on the internet and TV by christian leaders who talk about that leap of faith. It seems to be the hook that is supposed to grab you. They say it like "see how simple it all is just jump out of your common sense and you won't have to make sense out it all". "It's just there believe it". Of course I paraphrase. In a discussion between Sam Harris and Rick Warren, Rick kept talking like he was the ultimate authority because of the leap of faith, here's the link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17889148/site/newsweek/
I just read with puzzlement.

Jwest,

That's just it. You take a look at the message, and if you can believe it, you take a leap of faith to live it. All the other stuff is just smoke and mirrors.

Really enjoying the exchange here but haven't participated until today...

On the Post's homepage today there's a video re "College-aged youth group called Soulforce travels to evangelical colleges to discuss discrimination. Young, Gay Christians in For Bumpy Ride".

Given the excerpts Mr. Hilzenrath provided above (aka the "Easter" story from his novel in which a young, gay sibling commits suicide after being both tormented by students, and assured by his priest that homosexuality is evil), I'm wondering what your reactions are.

Some of you talked about the role of the clergy in interpreting the bible, but I don't think Hilzenrath's depiction is a far cry from reality, even now.

What do you think about the chapter and the state of affairs it reflects? Here's the link provided at the top:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/onlinebooks/jezebelstomb/dayEaster.htm

Thoughts?

Gina
I think that is what's being said. For some it is no longer possible to shut a blind eye to the entire concept of christianity. As far as I'm concerned I find the leaps of faith to be more then I'm able to make.

Wow! You guys are so serious. Let me kick my two cent into the conversation and say, as a person who follows the Christian faith, I think the message of Jesus got lost in the makeup. Now, I'm no dummy, I understand that at a certain point in history (not sure who the women haters were), a stablization of the Religion needed to happen. So the message, as it is presented in the bible, is contradictory, at best. For example, The bible says love thy neighbor as thy self. But if they are Gay, Muslim, poor, or people of color, well that's different. The message is hard to follow, as a child, you are told what the bible says and you fear that message. But as an adult, you read that bible and have to choose if you still believe that message, or if you need to invesitage further.

4Th WATCH
As I said it's not the grief but the convenience of having a ready made answer to losing someone close. Religion is just so ready-made for these types of events. I know my dearly departed are not is some glorious heaven to live eternally at the feet of some master. Even christianity believes one lays in the ground until the rapture. My point is we are not a very strong race and seem to need a ready made answer to everything. They are happy with "because god says so" and that satisfies their needs. Thats why so many christians will not discuss religion. Those of us that are not excepting the status quo are learning more about religions and its negative effects on society and are not so sure what it professes as truth is indeed truth. If bible school teachers would teach how invading christian armies would conquer and destroy all literature and beliefs the conquered had, altering our understanding of the true history of this planet then maybe I wouldn't have this feeling of not understanding christianity. So history from a christian viewpoint if inherently false. Remember the victors wrote history. So there is no truth in truth. So I can't understand something that we all know is a lie. Most christians don't want to be bothered with all this and most leaders and their political followers realize that soon enough there will be an educated population that will not be so eager to follow them. Therefore they are using the political system to force young people into christianity. More on this subject later. I continue talking to young people or should I say they are talking to me.

JWest
Grief hurts,we all at some point pass through it.When we can confront it head on(as with any problem)it's effects do not linger so long.

Comment to"Non-understander of religions"statement
Religions are set up and maintained by humans.
No human nor religion is perfect,period.
We should not hope to find perfectionism in them,it's just not there.Religion just as people at times let us down.
For this reason my faith is definitely not in any religion.

E Favorite
Am looking at some survey results.
Many people are all over the board on how they believe.They are searching,but not finding.

thinking out loud

I hope you have a good laugh. As I stated I get information from many different sources not just the history channel. I find it more accurate than you are willing to give it credit. You yourself just demonstrated how violent christianity is. From everything I've read, christianity is mostly made up as a control mechanism for people like you who need to be controlled. It must be wonderful to sit high on your perch and look down on others because of their ideas. That is why Servetus was burned at the stake. Someone that thought just like you burned him. You seemed to have all the answers firmly implanted in your head and nothing else will change it. Yep you are a christian all right. You think you are the only one right and all other ideas are subject to your ridicule. Ask yourself a question, why are you so afraid of non-believers? Could it be you don't beleive either? Many of us have courage in our convictions you don't sound very courageuos yourself another scared christian latching out against something he doesn't understand. You bring nothing of value to the discussion just condenscending christian superioity attitude that many of us find offensive.

E FAV
That's my point exactly. Good ready made answers to placate the living.

Jwest - It seems one of the appealing features of religion is that it provides a ready-made framework for mourning and loss.

Thinking out loud - I hate to type cast Canadians but you're the most cynical one I've come across.

Regarding your questions - Easy...

1. Did David slay Goliath? Yes
2. Did Jesus stand for peace on earth? Not at all
3. Did God deliver the Israelites from slavery because He thought slavery was wrong? No again.

I could expond on these, but what's the point. Most "christians" today, are just as you admit...
"most of my knowledge of the Old and New Testaments was acquired second-hand—from children’s books, Sunday School lessons, popular culture."

Like you, they don't have a clue what the bible says.

Most don't realize that vast areas of their beliefs have nothing to do with what Jesus taught and everything to do with non-christian beliefs absorbed into "christianity" to make it more appealing to formerly pagan believers in the second and third centuries. For example, I believe Trinity was accepted as THE doctrine of christianity, because Alexander just happened to be a bishop in Rome at the time and available to Constantine. If Arius had been more easily accessible.... but I digress.

If you want to read about the height of "christian" hypocrisy read the life story of Michael Servetus. Hated by the Catholics and Protestants alike because he studied the bible and dared to reason on what he read...

The thing is Servetus was brilliant. He was famous for his writings in medicine and theology. He challenged Calvin to a debate on his beliefs and said if he lost he would renounce them. Calvin wouldn't debate, because he knew he would lose. Instead Calvin had him burned at the stake. If the Catholics had found him first, they would have done the same.

My point is this, just because something is labelled as christian doesn't make it so. Like your commentary.

Regarding Fate:
"Thank God that today we do not heed the words of Paul and just accept whatever government is in power."

Tell that to the people in Africa, China, the Middle East... It's easy to sit in your north american home and think things are the same all over. They're not.

Regarding jwest:
Now that I know the source of your scholarship is the history channel, I'll laugh until I can laugh any more.

Regarding E Favorite:
"My “belief” is fluid, always open to new information and new insights, like most everything in my life."

Get a grip - You have no beliefs. Read it, know it, accept it. It's sad.

I truly hope the comments here are jokingly posted. If these are the serious deep thoughts of north americans, we can no longer think or reason deeply and have no beliefs (other than what we get from the TV).

So, the answer is, you are not smarter than a fifth grader...

E FAV & 4th WATCH you you get back.

I just got word My uncle died. He was around 80 years old. The last I saw him was when my older brother died and we saw him during my brothers services. He looked well enough back then in 2004. Before they died, my mom died. And during all this I lost some good friends. Please I'm not telling you all this in sorrow no condolences to me. I want these people that were so close to me to be in a great happy beyond. Because I don't know what happens when we died. Anything could be true. And even if there was a great supreme being that made us and watches over us, he may still be as big to us in death as he is to us in life. Its just that as a non-believer or a better way to sum me up is to say I am an non-understander of religions. This misunderstanding comes from reading it's history and then looking at what is happening today. The History Channel is great source of information with University level scrutinization. Then there's the internet and lots of information out there to be gathered. And as you look back at history you will find periods of time when christianity was forcing their will on society at large. Crusades et al. Somethings never change. But for all this misunderstanding I have, I still know how I fell about things and if I don't live up to someone elses standard, I don't care. I loved my friends and family, like we all do and, I miss them. Rest in peace Uncle Tony.

J-West - thanks for the info.

I did a little informal study a while back too - mainly with middle-aged people whom I thought to be lax believers or non-believers. I asked a few questions to establish their level of belief, then gave them some information I'd learned about Christian history. The surprising finding to me was that the non-believers were surprised to find how thin the evidence for Jesus is. Though they had chosen not to believe the stories, they still assumed the basic story (minus supernatural events) was well established and that the gospels had been written by eyewitnesses.

"No Kidding!" they'd say, or "Why am I hearing this from you? Why didn't I hear this in Church?" or my favorite, "This sounds like something that should be taught in divinity school!" (It is.)

By the way, they all believed me, because they know I check my facts and because what I said made more sense and was more thorough than anything they'd heard before.

E FAV and 4TH Watch

My "survey" was open ended conversation. I did not want to taint the info I was gathering so I just let them tell me whatever they wished. No set questions just like what did you give up for lent, what church do you go to. Why do you go there. Stuff like that. I felt the answers were from their hearts and some almost were relieved to talk about it. No set time almost just a casual conversation. As far as demographics are concerned I would say most were catholics some belong to fringe groups. As I said most older people were reluctant to talk about religion except for a Mormon I work with. After a few minutes with me he wanted to change the subject. I just want to know what happened to the golden tablets. Another older guy told me god doesn't let people be atheist. Very few people I talk to are bible smart. Most get it from others and are a little surprised when I tell them what Leviticus says. The reason I bring up Leviticus is because that is the laws many radical religious right folks wants this country to live by. One last note, none fully knew the ten commandments. As far as people with other faiths , hindu, islam and bhuddist, they have a better comfort level with their beliefs. For most muslims islam is their life but a few blow it off as BS. bhuddist are for the most part very happy people and really don't care if you believe them or not. Same with Hindus. Some find christianity too violent. I will say I am a good gatherer of information and fairly good at compiling data. When talking to these young christians there was an overarching theme of tacit compliance because of family and friends pressures. One was expected to be, that's just the way it is.

What prompt responses,Thank you.
JWest we are together on more than a few points.
The comments on some Christians,a lot of what you say is so.

E Favorite
It would not suprise me if it was you who started a Christian humanist movement.

From here it looks like we all share a desire for the honest truth,and have a compassion for people.These are good things to have in common.

i won't be able to post for a few days,(Holy Week)
Sincerely

Jwest – Very interesting – Thanks. I know that there are probably some things you don’t want to divulge about your unofficial survey on a public forum, but I am curious. So I will ask and be satisfied with whatever answers you can give.

Were the questions set and written out in advance, thus asking each person the same question in the same way? Or did you ask in a more conversational, open-ended way? How long did each interview last?

Did you personally administer the survey (i.e., (spoken) or did you give them a form to fill out?

What demographic information do you already know (or did you gather) about your participants?

Regarding your comment: “there are a hellava lot more closet atheists out there that are too scared to tell anyone.” Yes, and I also suspect there are a lot of people, who as you say, haven’t thought about religion much, because when they do, the inconsistencies are too confusing and scary to think about for very long.

E FAV
I forgot to add one more point. God is more abstract in these young peoples lives rather then that personal god that many evangelicals talk about. Also I have talked to other young people with other religious beliefs and will write about that later when I finish that unofficial survey.

Hi E FAV

Just read in our local paper that a Texas legislator is pushing a bill thru our congress to make teaching the bible in all public schools mandatory. Old and new testaments. Another is pushing a school voucher program. Our legislation is heavy right wing so things are heating up in Texas.

About my survey, I have many young adults around me so I've taken the opportunity to discuss their beliefs and how they come about them. I have not taken a stand one way or the other with them. I have a very good relation with them and as an older man they seem to trust me. Most have never read the bible. They believe in creation but support evolution. Can't tell you what Leviticus says about women, gays, slaves. In fact they think the bible is anti slavery. Have never read genesis. Go to church only when made to by elders or to otherwise placate someone else. Will probably not attend church when they get out on their own or away from immediate family pressures. They do "believe in god" because that was how they were raised. Many have grandparent level family members who push the religion in the family. Some went to catholic schools but have a very weak understanding of the bible and the history of the church. Some of the catholics do not consider themselves to be christians. Many have broken many of the ten commandments and don't pay it much mind. In other words it's just not thought of very often. These are young average age of 20 years old who have seemed to parrot whatever the family says. I also have many who really just don't give it much thought. Those that have a stricter adherence to their beliefs will admit to selective religious enforcement. As long as it doesn't interfere with what they want to do. Those that wear crucifixes is because a family member gave it to them and they wear it for them. Overall I found a lot of "plastic" christians who just don't really want to think about it very much. One more thing, older people don't want to talk about it at all. Some say it's just the way it is. I deduce from not just this small sample survey, but from lifes survey that there are a hellava lot more closet atheists out there that are too scared to tell anyone. One young baptist man told me he envied me for being strong enough to admit I have a problem with christianity. He does not have the courage to face his own beliefs. I told him to keep searching his heart and as he gets older his true beliefs will surface too strong for him to ignore. He goes to a youth bible study at his family church were the intensity is overwhelming. He said he tried to discuss his doubts with his fellow group members and they chastise him, told him the devil is working on him and not give in to the devil. He says he sees hatred in the faces of his group members. The peer pressure he experiences from this group is too much for him to take. Of course he is afraid to talk to his parents he says they won't understand. He is alone right now except for talking to me about it there is nobody in his life he can go to. I have made him feel better and just told him like I said to let his heart tell him what to do. He needs to make peace with himself before he can find any peace at all. Christianity and religions in general are forced issues. As I was writing this and young man came into my office and I asked him what religion he practices, he said he is a liberal catholic. And that he realizes the bible was written by man to please himself. There is a certain civil reason for church laws that somehow became instructions from god. I think I'll pursuit that idea a little later. In summery many young people are pleasing someone else with their beliefs.

Jwest - I'm anxious to hear all about your survey

4th watch – I’d already given thought to the questions you posed. In terms of “belief,” I believe in the goodness of humanity and that there is more to life than meets the eye – i.e., that which we don’t understand, may someday understand, but maybe not. I don’t believe in the supernatural stories of the bible or of any religion. I arrived there through sudden insight and deep study. First, realizing that I’d never examined my faith or the stories on which it was based, then researching it as I would any other subject. The most astounding thing I learned is that mainline clergy learn all of this Christian history in seminary (Catholic and mainline protestant) and don’t pass it on to their parishioners. For more on this subject, read “the Dishonest Church” by Jack Good – you can check it out on Amazon. I see a huge and ongoing deception – people both knowingly and unknowingly deceiving themselves and others for the perpetuation of misconstrued or false information. I am stunned by it.

My “belief” is fluid, always open to new information and new insights, like most everything in my life.

I don’t know what happens when we die and I doubt anyone else really does either, though I think it’s the human condition to want to know and want life to continue in some form. In terms of what is obvious, it sure looks we simply die and return to the earth, like all other life. There is no evidence to the contrary, outside of ancient supernatural stories. An insight I had when I first started thinking about religion was this: when we die, we all go to the same place. Nothing else made sense. Everything else was a human construct or what we hoped for ourselves or others. Where is that “place?” Don’t know – maybe nowhere. Time will tell.

Another insight I had, was if there was any concrete proof for Jesus or the Gospels, it wouldn’t be just be in the Bible, it would be trumpeted from the rooftops and etched onto golden plaques placed in the vestibule of every church in Christendom. After all, people have been looking for centuries. The little they’ve found has turned out to be false – the shroud of Turin, the James ossuary box. I think there is much good about Christianity that is worth preserving - the concept of loving one another (not original to Christianity, but still good), the beautiful music, the community, some of the ritual. Some Christian church emphasize those aspects now, but still are dishonest at a very basic level.

I’d like to see the church hierarchy be honest with itself and ordinary people and start a Christian humanist movement. Keep the good stuff and jettison the bad, silly and crazy stuff. Keep the Bible as a great old source book of stories about our origins and forget it as a rule book or guide book. I’d like to see those kinds of changes for all religions. Who knows – maybe in my lifetime.

4TH Watch
You ask a tough question. I no longer identify myself with christians because I think christianity has gone off the deep end. It's like a race for first place with them. They just have to win at all cost. The ends justify the means. I find no love and peace within most christians plus most I know don't even know what it is exactly they claim to believe. Most christians are to afraid to discuss their beliefs unless they are over the top christians who can't shutup about it. Most christians haven't read the bible they just go along with what ever someone else tells them. Fluid progressive is a phrase I've not considered but you can say that. I am not closed to anything. But I don't believe in creation. I think evolution is the answer and since it is a study, it is subject to change. I don't believe the bible is the inerrant word of god, man and I underscore man wrote it for himself. Notice women play a subservient role throughout the bible. I think most of religion is based on fear and does not come natural. If you are raised as one thing then that is what for the most part you believe. I think the answer to most of our problems in the world could be solved if we all put our respective religions on the back burner and dealt with each other on a human scale. But no we have to hatefully proclaim the my god is better then your god. Somehow we have never left the eight grade when it come to religion. How did I arrive at this point. Profound disappointment what horrible things religion has brought on mankind. You let these religious leaders take charge and innocent people will die. All you have to do is read what is going on in this country by various christian groups and what they are doing with respect to tolerance and you will find they have none. What happens when we die. We die. Then like everyone else I this planet I don't know. So don't you think we should live our lives to the fullest while we are on this planet and quite selfishly worrying how we are going to please some god we don't even understand. On my next post I'll give you all the results of a survey I conducted. It might surprise some.

JWest
You can see the epitome of a desperation prayer
everytime Shaq goes to the foul line.-Whoa-.

E Favorite by now you know in whom my faith is,
you never once disparged it,actually no one here has.Thank you for that.

--E Favorite--JWest--Fate-- Tell me

What is your belief?
How did you arrive there?
Is your belief stationary,fluid progressive?
What do you think happens when we die?

E Favorites earlier questions helped me clear up some doubt's i was harboring in my heart.
Hopefully these questions will be edifying to you in a like manner. I judge no one. Take your time.

Hi E FAV, Nice to talk to you again. Prayer is for the most part harmless. Every time we wish for something good to happen it is a form of prayer. There is an article at CNN under education, about a court fight over a little girls right to hand out religious flyers at school telling how Jesus changed her life. ( How does a little 4th grader know Jesus changed her life, because her parents told her so). Anyway the mother said "our prayers were answered". It's what ever people want prayer to be and for whatever reason they come up with, most times selfish reasons. For me, against you.

4th watch - that inner voice has a name, all right, it's whatever the person hearing it wants to call it. It sort of reminds me of a friend, who when she was young, and coping with a problem, used to ask herself what Dear Abby would do. It was a way of accessing wisdom she didn't feel she had on her own.

Jwest - agreed, - prayer and desperation go hand in hand. I heard recently that "alternative" medical cures are often not sought until all standard medicine has been tried and hasn't worked. Prayer provides strength when there is no other source of it. And I think in some cases, it's harmless - and even helpful - just as a talisman can bring confidence. The problem comes, I fear, when all sorts of stories and expectations are attached to it.

Well It looks like god is a Florida State fan and must not like Ohio. He answered Florida's prayers and not Ohio State. Praying and claiming it works can be a bit tricky. One can pray for another to suffer, even ever so slightly, to gain for themselves. I find that people that make a pack with god were in a very difficult situation and needed help right then, at that moment thru desperation. Or at the bottom of their respective selves. Prayer and desperation go hand in hand. Many peopl pray God get me thru this and I'll promise that. I find it all very selfish.

Fate / E Favorite
You ask-So why do people pray?-I can only speak for myself on this.
For me prayer is a relationship with my Father.It is very similar to the relationship I had with my Earthly Mother and Father.Can you imagine growing up never talking with your parents,never seeking their advice on a problem,nor receiving clarity on how to proceed when all hell broke loose in your life?If this were true you would have lived together never having formed an intimate relationship with your parents.So it is with the Heavenly Father.
Prayer is not just talking,we listened to Mom and Dad,we need to be listeners to the Lord also.

Fate said it right"Why They think they can petition God and God must rule on it,Makes me wonder who is serving who."
They think this way because they are creators.
They have created a god in their mind that looks,acts,likes and dislikes as they believe god should.
Why do they do that?Because it's easy to follow that god,they always agree on everything.

E Favorite
I like that inner voice too,~you know it has a name~.
Nando's book is on my to read list.

4th watch – thanks for your thoughtful response. I see that “Fate” beat me to the punch. I must say, I agree with much of what he/she said, though I might not have said it in quite the same way. I’m more struck by what you said earlier – that if you hadn’t prayed that certain night when you felt so endangered, you wouldn’t have developed such a close “friendship” with God. I wonder if that’s what draws you most to prayer – the warmth and comfort of it.

I prayed as a kid, but not very regularly. I never really “got” prayer and would actually feel guilty when my prayers were answered, knowing that other people’s prayers on much more serious matters had been ignored. Many years ago, driving in a terrible snow storm, I bargained with God, that if I made it through that night without an accident, I’d give up smoking completely (at the time, I was an occasional smoker).

So, here I am, a grateful non-smoker. Really, I knew smoking was bad and I’m glad I quit, for whatever reason. I can’t credit God for it, though – not with all those health warnings screaming off the cigarette wrappers and the TV screen. And when I recall all the cars stuck in the storm, I can’t imagine that I deserved to get through any more than most of them.

Since then, I’ve thought of prayer as more of an inner voice – contemplation, or meditation. I can’t believe in a God who would favor me because I pray to him. I’ve led a very good life, so far, that I know I’ve done nothing to deserve – starting with parents who were loving, supportive, moral, healthy, good natured, good looking and long lived! Even so, I know I could have been luckier – richer, more talented, better looking – many people are. They don’t deserve it.

I read a book, recently, that I recommend – it’s not religious, but it’s very human and spiritual. It’s “Miracle in the Andes” by Nando Parrado – one of the survivors from an airplane crash in the 70’s (I think) who climbed down from the crash site to safety. Only 14 (I think) of the original passengers ultimately survived - the crash, a couple of avalanches and the bitter cold. They all responded differently – some were sure God had chosen them to survive, while others felt no God could be so capricious and unjust. All were grateful to be alive. You should read it.

Anonymous
I don't think it has anything to do with praying or religion with these radical religious right people like falwell, dobson, perkins et al. It has everything to do with control and money. As soon as good average christians don't listen to these people they will go out of business. But these groups have lots of money and power with a lot of political sway.

Jwest,

It is people like this, LEADERS like this, who cause the average Christian the most political trouble. Because they take the extreme point of view, they give non-Christians a warped view of Christianity's beliefs, and they push agendas that the majority of Christians do not particularly agree with.

For example, school prayer bills. The vast majority of Christians will tell you that they pray enough at church and at home, and don't necessarily NEED to pray at school. I'm sure you'll get some fundies who will say "hey, you can't tell me my kid can't pray at school!" But seriously, the majority of Christians in this country are not pushing for time allotted for their kids to pray at school. It's being pushed by extremists, and it's making the rest of us (the majority of us) look bad.

4'th watch wrote:
---God is not obligated to answer my prayers, yours or anyone’s. He is a real person who has a free will just as we do, He is the Creator of all things created. Who am I to demand that he respond to my prayer?---

I agree with this concept entirely. So why do people pray?

---At this point a brief passage really speaks to this question. Jesus Christ shows us exactly what God is looking for in our prayers in Luke 18:10-14.
Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector...---

I understand the parable but still do not understand prayer, well, not why anyone thinks they can pray and God will turn his attention to your problem. Answering it or not is not my question. My question is why do people think they can grab God's attention through prayer. Why they think they can petition God and God must rule on the petition. It makes me wonder who is serving who in this religious context.

---My prayers have been ignored before, but that is my own fault. When God does answer my prayers it always falls one of three ways.
Yes---
No---
Wait---And this is a yes.---

I'm still not getting it. You pray to God and God can respond or not. Fine, but what if you did not pray. What if something happened and if you had prayed God would have answered "yes", but you did not pray for some reason and so it was not considered. Wouldn't that mean that God is not the one in control of events but man who brings events to God's attention, presents a petition then awaits an answer? I just find man has more than a small inflated ego when he feels he can command God's attention to present a petition. And consider that the bible speaks of prayer but all religions present and past have prayer as a method of presenting a petition to the gods of those religions. Prayer was not invented with the Hebrew God.

Anonymous

I am glad you looked into this. I agree they could have gone about all this in a much different manner. But these elected officials want a jesus driven federal government and most have stated such. They support religious liberty and school prayer bills in congress that give christianity a leg up on all other forms of belief. If these people would do their job there might not be a need for all those prayers. Be assured I'm not against people praying, just using their official positions to proselytize.

Jwest,

I looked into this futher, and I agree that they should not have gone about this the way that they did. Calling an official press conference for their group on Capital grounds to call on the country for prayer was going too far. A better way would have been outside of the Capital, asking religious groups and people of faith to join them in prayer for the country and the country's leaders; without a press conference.

E.Favorite
Oops, forgot to address that to you.
You too Russel D.

Victoria,
What really burns me more than the sun are those news anchors ,politicians----that rant on immigrants.These people have zero opportunities
in their home country and are here to basically
do the work most of us shy away from.

Good Palm Sunday
At first your questions seemed more important than the answers.
I can satisfy myself very well by quoting scripture to these questions. But my gut tells me this would not satisfy you in the least, and what good would that be, after all that is why we are here. So I will try and keep them to a minimum.

God is not obligated to answer my prayers, yours or anyone’s. He is a real person who has a free will just as we do, He is the Creator of all things created. Who am I to demand that he respond to my prayer? God is King, and a king makes the rules not you or I. For example, send President Bush an email today and see if he responds. It is the President’s decision to respond or not to.

Also, the questions seem to tie performance in as to how God will respond, (Were my prayers better than theirs, Did not the others deserve as much?)
God is not interested in performance. This world we live in teaches us performance is everything. From Pre-K to Elder-care and all the commercials in between, we’re taught this is what’s expected of us.
Not so in God’s Kingdom.
And you can be sure it is at this precise point where the world’s way of thinking vs. God’s way of thinking cause many people to balk at such a curious notion. They can’t or won’t understand how God thinks, much less accept Him into their life.

At this point a brief passage really speaks to this question. Jesus Christ shows us exactly what God is looking for in our prayers in Luke 18:10-14.
Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector.
Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and another a tax collector.
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank you that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I posses.
And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, (heart) saying God be merciful to me a sinner!
Jesus tells us this man went down to his house, justified rather than the Pharisee.
The world (people) accepted and expected the Pharisee’s (performance prayer) to be answered yet Jesus said the Father ignored that prayer.
The world hated the tax collector and expected his prayer to be ignored. But Jesus tells us his prayer was heard and answered. The tax collector knew the reality of sin in his life and he understood his inability to correct it (perform well enough) by his own power. He asked God to help him do it, and God honored that prayer and began to move in that man’s life.

When you see the difference between worldly thinking and God’s Kingdom thinking the Lord’s written word becomes a reality in a person’s life.
My prayers have been ignored before, but that is my own fault. When God does answer my prayers it always falls one of three ways.
Yes---
No---
Wait---And this is a yes.

Thank you for your patience. I look forward to your response.
Also, I have no idea of your belief and would like to know.

Sincerely.

4th watch - i responded that way because it seemed to belittle the really hard conditions and lives of the people i was speaking about-
i saw many women falling over -just collapsing from the 115 degree heat in the fruit factories and the 16 hour days every day but sunday- and the sun really is so murderous that many get skin cancer- you can feel it like needles on your skin-
so i found it hypocritical for people to make remarks in seeming righteous indignation about such an abstract idea as slavery inthe biblical times- when were not really much closer to humane treatment of people within our own society- or even aware that their labors are feeding us-

E.Favorite- i know you didnt ask me- but all of my prayers are framed in this respect- if it is good for me- good for my religion (meaning my spiritual development as a holistic soul not just advantageous for the moment) and the will of ALLAH- then enble this thing i desire-
its all contained in the phrase insha'alla

i didnt mean to horn in-but well i did.

Anonymous, if that is your real name... I don't care where they pray and to who. But when they do it as an official government function as they did, then I have a problem. They are suppose to represent everyone in the districts and with this they are sending a message that only christians need apply. You are wrong if you think anything else. .I realize christians just aren't getting enough control and they are very frustrated, but we live in a pluralistic society and when it comes to religion it is best left up to each individual. Any body can pray to who ever they want to any time they want to. Of course I don't expect christians to have any respect for other people, its not in their nature. I find this bulling and yes offensive. To answer your questions point blank they can do anything they want on their own time but officially they need to respect everyone in their respective districts including non-believers. What is so hard for about that?

They were members of the Congressional Prayer Caucus. By definition, they believe in the power of prayer, and work to preserve and promote the rights of Americans to pray freely in and for our country.

I agree with you that they do very little as it is, and maybe they wouldn't have to be asking us to pray for the country if they had done a little more. But I don't see it as a "government" thing. I see it as a request from religious people to other religious people. It isn't an odd request. We often hear this same request in our churches (at least at my church); that we should pray for our country and our country's leaders.

Was it because they chose to meet on the Capital lawn that this bothers you? Would you have been similarly upset if these same people had gotten together as a group off the grounds and said the same things?

Anonymous
You, kind soul, are missing the point. These were some 36 congressional representitives, elected official, men and women that are suppose to represent me too. You are saying I have no voice because I'm not a christian. It's ok for them to declare this a christian nation and too bad for the rest of us. They do nthing as it is and now they are telling us to pray. They need to get off their knees and do something about the problems this country faces. They have created many of these problems themselves and now they are telling the american people to pray to jesus. Give me a break.

Jwest,

I truly think you are over-reacting to the whole praying at the Capital thing. It was a bunch of Christians praying and talking about praying. How was it "governmental meddling in matters of faith?"

Christians always encourage people to pray. They weren't saying that the government needs to pray, or that the government says that everyone should pray; they were saying, "we, as Christians, ask that America would pray for this country."

You might not agree with praying for the country, but this shouldn't be offensive to you. When a teachers' bible study group gets together after school, they are not representing the beliefs of the entire school district. A group of Christian House members certainly doesn't represent the beliefs of our government as a whole. They were speaking as Christians, which was their right to do.

I am also curious to hear your response to those questions 4'th Watch. E Fav asked some good ones, and it peaked my interest. I have always wondered the same things.

4th Watch - thanks for your time and consideration.

Regarding this window - it will continue to be available under "guest voices" - they haven't removed any conversations - but it may be harder to find. It will be best to bookmark it now, or copy the address into a word file.

I'll check back here later for your response.

E Favorite
I have considered some of your questions before,not all of them though,and certainly not all at once.They are worthy questions that deserve straight answers.

Allow me prayer~meditation time.

One of my first thoughts was to your closing question.---If I hadn't prayed then what would have happened? First,I just- don't- know if my life would have ended there or not.
Second,If I hadn't prayed, that experience with God would not have taken place,our friendship would be different,not as intimate and trusting.

Let's talk further on the other questions.
My question is will this window be here to post for the next few days?

4th Watch - Thanks - and no problem about the misunderstanding.''I can see some of my questions might not apply directly to the situation you described. Still, generally, I think they do apply, so I'll try again in a more general way:

Has it occurred to you that some people who pray to live do not have their prayers answered? What does it mean that your prayers were answered and theirs weren't? For instance, Were your prayers better? Did they not deserve to live as much as you did?

Also, What about people who don’t pray and are not harmed? Why does God save them while passing over some good Christians who pray for their lives? And I have another question – What do you think would have happened that time if you hadn’t prayed?

Victoria
Am not sure if your comment was attended to in my post to E.Favorite?Let me know.

E Favorite,
I have never been in a gun battle.Looking back at my post to Rev.Wright it is plain to see why you and probably others would think so.
That was not my intent and I apologize to everyone who took it as such.
However on my tour I did have an encounter with people who wanted to take my life.After many years it can still make me shake.God proved to me then,and continues to show me He is a real person whose desires a real friendship.Even with somebody like me.
This happened in Germany(1974,75)I was on guard duty,it was the 4th watch--hence my moniker.
Humbled

E FAV go to au.org. That's were I got it. Incredeble

4th watch no- you didnt

fate- speak for yourself

Hi, JWEST -- what is the source of your quote above? I want to write a letter to those guys telling them to cool it.

4TH WATCH - I'm glad you came out of your battle experience well. Has it occurred to you that some of your buddies who were killed were also praying to live? What does it mean that your prayers were answered and theirs weren't? For instance, Were your prayers better? Did they not deserve to live as much as you did?

Also, What about people who didn't pray and were not killed. Why did God save them while passing over some good Christians who were praying for their lives?

I'd really like you to think about this and get back to me. I don't expect you to have an answer to every question, but I would like to know your thoughts on this.

Thanks.

This is what some of our congress people are doing now. These yahoos want a theocracy and don't doubt it. Read what they did today.. Insanity!

A bipartisan group of U.S. House members offered a simple message to the American people today: “Pray, or God will lift his caring hand from the great nation.”

Over three dozen representatives joined U.S. Rep. J. Randy Forbes (R-Va.) on the west lawn of the U.S. Capitol today to urge Americans to pray for the U.S. and its leaders for at least five minutes each week. Forbes, who is also the leader of the Congressional Prayer Caucus, said he hopes “God will hear our prayers and heal our land.”

Each member spoke for 30 seconds, and many gave personal testimony about the power of prayer in their personal and professional lives. Several members put a sectarian spin on their messages, suggesting that surrendering to Jesus Christ is the only thing that could save our nation. U.S.Rep. Bill Sali (R-Idaho) beseeched the nation to “glorify the name of Jesus Christ,” because as his colleague Todd Akin (R-Mo.) said, “Jesus is always the answer.”

U.S. Rep. John Carter (R-Texas) said “prayer is the solution” to America’s many problems. Remarks were greeted with “Amen!” “Yes!” and “Thank You, Jesus!” from the small crowd of mostly Hill staffers and tourists.

Forbes mentioned that his colleagues were calling people of all faiths to pray, but that they would “let God sort out” which were the “right” prayers, done in the “right” way. Interestingly, Christianity was the only faith represented at today’s gathering.

Forbes closed the press event with a Christian prayer given by Senate Chaplain Peter Marshall on March 18, 1948.

Thomas Jefferson and James Madison must be spinning in their graves! These two Founders and champions of religious liberty believed that religious decisions were the individual’s alone. They saw the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution as a bulwark against governmental meddling in matters of faith.

Madison said in 1788, “There is not a shadow of right in the general government to intermeddle with religion. Its least interference with it would be a most flagrant usurpation.”

Jefferson refused to call for days of prayer as president because he believed that even encouraging religious practice would “indirectly assume to the U.S. an authority over religious exercises which the Constitution has directly precluded them from.” He saw no difference between requiring and recommending prayer because even a simple proclamation carried the same authority, the same sanction “by some penalty [on] those who disregard it; not…of fine and imprisonment, but of some degree of proscription perhaps in public opinion.”

Religious freedom and diversity has flourished in this country because government, for the most part, has left religion to the people. For lawmakers to call Americans to their knees and insist that religious worship is the only way to solve our many problems is insulting, divisive and, frankly, unconstitutional.

By Lauren Smith

Fate:

You are very good at this. I enjoy your posts and agree with you. My take is basically the same. That said, I'd like to add more to it. The Bible is a good book when in regards to some lessons, but not all. It does not need to be taken literally, and some people refuse to do just that. Religion seems to be more of a crutch than anything. But I don't think religion is a bad thing at all. It is good and can be helpful to people, yet at some point, maybe people need to start thinking for themselves and believing that the power to succeed and do what's right is within them, not somewhere in the Heavens.

And when it comes to teaching the message, it has gotten skewd over the last 2,00 years. It needs to be reintroduced into our society and maybe it will all be better. Reminds me of the new song by Nickleback entitled "If Everyone Cared" It is a great song about peace and love. It sums it all up. If you haven't heard it, I suggest you look it up. Keep up the good post everyone. I like reading them.

Lets also not forget folklore that religions in some regions have maintained that is totally outside the bible or biblical teaching. As a catholic kid I was taught, in 1962, by nuns, that blacks were black because when God made man all men and women were initially all black, but when they crossed from heaven to earth they had to cross a river. God's favorite people went first ending up on earth clean and white because the river washed the black off. God's least favorite went last, when the river was low due to everyone crossing it before, so only their hands and feet were washed. Its not in the bible, but it was taught to me as gospel. They even had prepared overhead slides showing blacks walking on the palms of their hands and soles of their feet to cross the river.

Of course, you can guess what happened to me when I asked about Adam and Eve and wasn't that the real story of how God put man on earth according to the bible. I also asked why God had favorites when we had been taught God loved all his children. When my parents were called to tell them of my disobedience challenging the lesson my parents were too embarassed to do anything but apologize though they told me privately I was right.

It should be obvious to anyone who looks around that religion is not what makes us what we are and the way we act. The way we are and the way we act determines how the religion is interpreted. When slavery was ok, the bible was interpreted to support it. Today, other parts of the bible are quoted to support equality and the parts supporting slavery are not mentioned. I get a lot out of biblical morality lessons but I also get them out of Aesop's fables and other works of moral teachings. By saying that the bible is the true word of God puts into the hands of those who profess to interpret it properly a tremendous power which we have seen misused and continue to see misused. And it not just christians. Muslims today are hearing different interpretations and the radical interpretations are spreading death.

Dex wrote:

"Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson James Dobson and thier ilk have a tremendous amount of power in the United States and are insistant on the Bible's inerrancy and literalism."

That does not mean that they believe we should be following the ancient laws and customs today. It does not mean that they believe we should have slaves. It does not mean that they believe we should sacrifice animals to God.

There is a very small number of highly misguided (I'm trying to be nice) people who take bits and pieces of the Bible and use them as excuses for their sick desires. But this truly is a very small number of people, compared to believers as a whole. The vast majority of people are smart enough to know that these things do not apply anymore.

Ah, but Julie,

There are no shortage of well-known Christian and in some cases Jewish leaders today who DO say that the Bible is completely true, valid, inerrant and is to be taken LITERALLY.

I find this notion to be fairly insane myself but it is out there.

Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson James Dobson and thier ilk have a tremendous amount of power in the United States and are insistant on the Bible's inerrancy and literalism.

I understand your reasoning and pretty much agree, but there are plenty out there who are indeed of the mindset: "God said it, I believe it, that settles it!"

Therefor these discussions and questions are valuable IMO. The actual text of the Bible must be examined and the people/hypocrites who exploit it must be examined, questioned and exposed.

How do you think slavery lasted for 400 years in the US and Jim Crow for another 100+ afterward (not to mention the many,many other travesties carried out by our government guided by so-called holy men and their devotion to the WORD)?

It is always important that we take religious texts in their historical contexts. If, during these historical periods, slavery was allowed, it is unlikely that new religions introduced at these times would have succeededif they banned slavery.
Instead, Judaism and later Islam had laws governing the treatment of slaves.

Much initially introduced in religions is now outdated. For example, Judaism has sabbath provisions against building a fire (which was hard work!). How many people today build fires on a regular basis? You take the text in the context and if there is no contemporary relevance, then you discard it.

The holy books provide us with moral guidelines that help us to live our lives. However, one should always read them with the context in mind. Just like we do not build daily fires and we are not nomadic societies anymore, we also do not own or traffic in slaves. The holy books dealt in their own contexts. We take what we can from the holy books and live in our context.

Fate,

I am a unitarian, and I was once a very liberal christian. I have felt that really beautiful melting of the heart that some christians call being "born again." When it happened to me, I read and researched those kind of faith experiences. William James, who wrote "Varieties of Religious Experience," was really illuminating. I read somewhere (in James, I think) that people who have those strong religious experiences either turn to the mystical view of faith (certainly my course) or the authoritative one. I have a hard time seeing how people who felt what I felt could turn to an authoritative view. But I think its a matter of upbringing, education and culture.

David--

You ask some very tough questions! Some of them have what I believe to be straight-forward answers. Others (such as slavery and genocide) do not, as we can see pretty clearly from the discussion here.

As I Christian I must say that after years of study (and we do study these books at my church) I still don't understand issues such as the genocide found in the book of Joshua and why it reads the way it reads. HOWEVER (and this is a big however) the God that I see portrayed in some parts of the book of Joshua, for example, is not the God I see portrayed in the rest of the Bible when the book is taken as a whole. I can't help but think that over the span of time contexts have changed so much and the general assumptions underlying what was written have changed so much that there has to be something missing on my end that would help me understand, as on the face of it, it's pretty ugly and out of character. Maybe it does mean exactly what it says. I don't know.

I think I know my husband pretty well. Sometimes I hear about something he said or read something in an email that seems strange to me, even ugly. So when I talk to him, I ask him, "Hey, what's up with that? What did you mean? That just doesn't seem like you." And he tells me. I don't have that same luxury of "face time" with God. I pray, and that goes a long way in providing insight, as I do believe we can communicate with God. But I'm still left with things I just don't get. I'm looking forward to asking God someday--"Hey, what's up with that? That just doesn't seem like you."

In the meantime I'm moving forward with the big picture of God I see when I read the Bible as a whole. Of course I have questions. If you're reading these ancient books critically you WILL have questions. But for me at least, those questions have not blocked my view of what I see in the rest of the text. It just leaves me with some pretty important unanswered questions. I'm OK with unanswered questions as long as they don't overwhelm the questions I've had answered. Given that there are absolutely 0 areas in my life where all my questions have been answered, I don't consider this to be "religious blinders." For me this is just reality.

Keep asking questions, David! Not cynically, not purposefully looking for contradictions (you will find them wherever you look--inside the Bible and out) but don't lose sight of the big picture either. You may come up with a different big picture than mine--that's not a bad thing. Perhaps we can help inform each other as we each look for answers.

Cheers--

minipetunia

Mr. Hilzentrath,

You posed many valid questions. But are those questions issues that you are attempting to resolve in your own beliefs in regards to religion. Or, are you using those questions as a club to incite people who already hate religion?
I have dealt with the same questions and many more questions that surround religion that conflict with my own belief systems. I just don't believe in any particular religion. Yet, I do respect religions for the primary message that religions want to convey. To me those "stories" are not important anymore for me to have a belief in God. As of yet, I have not met one religious person who believes in slavery in present day america. I don't think that the bible is the absolute truth. And moral contradictions abound in this "Brave New World". In my opinion many people use the bible today, to help themselves to resolve those contradictions, and as a guide to living. Are their people out their who distort the bible, and other religions for their own greed and egos? You bet! The examples are numerous. But the examples of religious people performing good deeds under terrible conditions are just as numerous, if not more. Many of them read the same book, yet got different results so to speak. But the questions you posed are valid, and real. It all goes back to how "I" will deal with the answers to those questions in my own beliefs.

David Hilzenrath,

I will try to answer the questions you asked me above the best I can.

"How do you interpret commandments such as these:

Regarding female Hebrew slaves: “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not be freed as male slaves are.” (Exodus 21:7)

It became a practice in those days for families that had nothing to survive on to sometimes resort to selling their children for money. The person who bought a girl must have paid a pretty good amount, since he was supposed to be able to keep her on for life. If you read the following verses in that chapter, you will see that these female slaves end up being treated as wives of the owner or owner's son.

"Regarding foreign slaves, both male and female: “You may keep them as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property for all time. Such you may treat as slaves. But as for your Israelite kinsmen, no one shall rule ruthlessly over the other.” (Leviticus 25:45-46)

This one is tricky unless you look at the verses before and after those. You have to look at verses 35 - 55 together. When you do that, you see that it says you should help people out who become poor and cannot support themselves; but there will also be instances where people will want to sell themselves as slaves. When that happens, don't buy an Israelite slave.

"Similarly, how do you interpret passages such as Numbers 31, in which the Midianites are massacred at God’s command – except for the virgin females, who are taken as plunder?"

As for the Midianites - there was a lot of fighting and massacres going on back then. The Israelites and Midianites were enemies. Many times it was "us or them". I can't condone it; I can't possibly know what it was like living back then. Perhaps a Midianite attack was just around the corner. Who knows? I know that typically in those times the women, children and "spoils" of the town were taken as plunder. In this instance with the Midianites, there was a problem with the women in that they had been perceived as luring the Israelite men to their un-Godly ways. That is why only the virgin women were spared.

So, that is my feeble attempt to answer your questions. Not to justify anything, but to try to explain a little better.

I agree with you Mr. Price. The spirit of the message has gotten lost in all the hoopla regarding religion and faith. Seems that Faith is a casual term now and people throw it around very easily. Of course, faith has different meanings for different people. Faith in a God, or multiple Gods, or faith in oneself. Whichever is chosen, it should be followed though with. Not to undermine Christianity or any other religion, but the people that run the religious intstitutions in this country have no idea waht they are talking about anymore.

I know I still have much to learn about the Bible and other holy books, but I intend to make it a goal to be as informed on each as I can. Inly then can I make a good decision based on what I have learned. But what I have read so far and seen being alive, is not good, and not the way it was intended to be used. There are good parts of the Bible, and there are bad, and there are some that are down right unfathomable. We just have to know which parts best fit our lives and the lives of other people.

Peggy,

I agree with what you say. I'm an atheist but go to church each week because my wife is a believer who tolerates me and I really don't mind learning a lesson or two on morality though I listen with a much more open mind. I've been listening for years for the slavery and other horrible parts of the bible to be taught but they are not. It seems clear to me that in church (Luthern now, catholic when I was younger), the inconsistent and barbaric passages are not mentioned. It seems the weekly gospels are carefully chosen.

I really don't have a problem with that. As I said I like to hear lessons on morality, whether they are biblical or Aesop's fables. But I do see a coverup of sorts, quoting only selective passages but then declaring the whole book to be the "truth" and God's words. I guess for the gospels to have the force they need to get people to adhere to the lessons you need that sort of authority for the words, but the parts of the bible that are not read in church is telling. Even more telling is that when the Godly approved slavery, murder and genocide passages are pointed out, the twisting of the meaning of the words by believers comes into play. A defense for the indefensible because they were taught they are the words of God, so they cannot mean what they plainly say.

Dear Fate,

Thanks for responding to my post. I appreciate the continued dialogue on this subject. However, I must disagree with you in this area and I would like to try and thoughtfully address the issues that you are raising. First, I would like to clarify the Christian understanding of the Bible as the literal word of God and how that relates to this discussion. Then, I would like to address your point about Jesus not believing that the Old Testament was the literal word of God.

So, let us begin by looking at how the Bible has been viewed by Christians as the literal word of God. Perhaps the best way to begin addressing this question is actually by looking at how the Christian worldview looks at the nature of the universe, because this issue directly relates to the Christian understanding of Scripture. Christians believe in an open, but ordered system. This means that the universe has order, cause and effect, and so forth. There are natural laws like gravity. However, it is also a system that is open, meaning that choice is involved and people can directly influence this system, but more importantly, that God is involved in the processes of this universe, entering history at various points in order to interact with His creation. History is also viewed as linear, moving from one point to the next and having both a beginning and an eventual end.

So how does this inform the Christian understanding of the Bible? Well, Christians believe that the Bible was revealed in history over the course of time. We see God entering history to interact with human beings in specific historical and cultural contexts. The purpose of this interaction is the eventual redemption of all of humanity as well as God's creation, moving them from the state of what is popularly called "the Fall" to a final redemption, glimpses of which are seen throughout the Old and New Testaments through the writings of the prophets and the teachings of Christ and His apostles. While I disagree with some of Papal's earlier statements, he is correct in his assertion that, "The bible must be carefully studied and translated. It must be read in its entirety to see God's plan in perspective."

The reason that this understanding is important is because it highlights the fact that the revelation of God's word over time is in specific cultural and historical contexts and must be viewed as such. So is it literally God's word? Yes, in that it was God's interaction with human beings in history. Should every letter of it be applied in our modern context? No. The reason for this is because one must carefully study the biblical texts, recognizing that some of what is being said is culturally specific while others are what we would call transcultural. Biblical scholars in both Christian and non-Christian camps have highlighted this need and affirm it as vitally necessary when examining the Bible and its application. The ways that we determine the difference between the two is by looking at the development of specific issues throughout the biblical text and noting those developments in light of the historical issues of the time. A detailed analysis of all of these criteria can be found in Webb's book, which I mentioned in my previous post. I encourage you to give it an honest read if you are interested in exploring this issue further.

As such, the Bible as the word of God is not viewed in the same light that the Qur'an is viewed by Muslims. The majority of classical Muslim theology states that the Qur'an is God's eternal word and was the same as revealed to earlier prophets (Moses, Jesus, etc.). Therefore, the letter of it must be applied as it stands. Now, this is not to say that there are not Muslim scholars who have disagreed with this point of view and sought another way of viewing the Qur'anic text. Farid Esack and Abdul Rauf are two important examples that are worth mentioning. This is an important distinction to make simply because both Muslims and Christians look at their scriptures as the word of God, but their understanding of this idea is very different, which can often lead to some confusion on the part of those who do not understand this difference.

It is at this point that I think it is important to address your comment regarding Jesus and his understanding of the Old Testament. You wrote, "Its taken 2000 years to get to where christians are today and they still have a way to go, but the essence of Christ's words were that any God that made us would love us. Therefore, Christ did could not believe that the Old Testament was the literal word of God." In response to this issue, I think it is important to look at how Jesus viewed the purpose of the Old Testament law. He said to his disciples, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished" (Matt. 5:17-18, see all Matt. 5:17-20). Christ did believe in the entire trustworthiness of the Old Testament as God's word, but in the way that I previously mentioned.

This is most powerfully evident in his sermon on the mount (found in Matthew, chapters 5-8). At several points throughout his sermon he highlights the law as his reference point. One good example of this is in regard to his teaching on lust. He says, "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Matt. 5:27-28). Here he is not counteracting the law, but rather expanding upon it and highlighting the spirit that the law was intended to bring about. There are other instances as well where Christ refers to the law in response to people, but then moves them into a deeper understanding of the spirit of the text (see Matt. 19:1-12, Matt. 15:1-9, Luke 18:18-30, Luke 16:16-17, Luke 14:1-6). In this way he is indeed fulfilling, not casting out, the law. From the beginning of Christ's ministry he understood the importance of this redemptive movement and applied it to issues of the law. This is the way Christians should indeed view the biblical texts, because it is the model that Christ himself applied.

It is interesting to note that Christ actually chastised the Pharisees for the same reasons that we are now discussing this issue. They too applied the letter of the law, but missed the spirit of the law. Sadly, we see many Christians today doing exactly the same thing and failing to truly apply Christ's teaching in its fullness. In this you are indeed correct to criticize and draw attention to those issues, but the fault lies not with purpose of the text itself, but with those who have failed to properly understand and apply it. I hope that this brings some clarity to this issue and I really do appreciate you highlighting this issue some more. I think that deeper understanding between Christians and non-Christians, especially in the area of biblical application and how to understanding the Bible, is vitally important if any kind of deeper understanding is to be found. Please feel free to continue dialoguing with me about this on this thread or on others.

Sincerely,

Nicholas Price

Interesting and thoughtful stuff. As someone who lives in the rural west, I can tell you that biblical inerrancy is very much alive. I think it comes from a different mindset, one that wants to swallow its faith whole and not make it a matter involving personal reflection and judgment. There are people out here -- good people -- who are uncomfortable reading, thinking and talking about abstract matters. They want religion to be source of comfort and security, not cognitive dissonance. They do not question and contextualize the bible. If they have to admit to biblical inconsistencies, they simply accepts their spiritual leader's explanation for those inconsistencies.

That's what scares the bejeezus out of me about faith today.

Victoria'
Most every day I labor in the fields.Someone has to do it.We need a guest worker program.
That sun is a real killer as you get older.

For Fred
Why did you stop at verse 21 of Ex.ch.20?
Read the next five verses .
These verses say if there is any personal damage inflicted the servant shall go---FREE---.
Seems the masters power was limited,probably for the first time in that ancient world.
Thank you for pointing me to that passage.
Simply Sincere

Victoria,

You cannot compare low wage jobs, hard gruling jobs, to slavery. There is no comparison. I understand many people are in jobs where the employer goes against labor laws, or no labor laws exist, and works their employees hard and even unjustly. But if the employee has the ability to leave the job, its not slavery. You may not like the jobs, I certainly do not like the jobs, but comparing bad employers to slave holders just muddies the discussion.

And Victoria, if you abhore employers employing people in what you term to be slavery, why is it bad if God allows worse? What God endorses in the OT sounds much worse than a 16 hour a day farming job that pays a wage and you are free to leave. If God endorses slavery and the master is allowed to beat the slave, why is a gruling 16 hour a day job worse? If it is not, then I assume you do not believe that the OT is the word of God. Or, maybe you are substituting your own feelings for God's wishes and ignoring what is in the OT. This I see constantly including some of the posts here.

Strange, Victoria, that you are using all the misery of slaves or similar lowest class workers as an argument PRO slavery or Pro an understanding of slavery! I don't understand. It doesn't bear on anybody's feeling of "superiority".

Does anybody have an alternative? There are many alternative plans and efforts and successful programs in the world, but the present US government is not interested: They wouldn't produce any profit. Just think of the health care dilemma, with 43 Million US citizens without health care. In Western Europe, you don't find such a quagmire. A few weeks of Iraq war would be enough to entitle everybody....

Gerry.

for all the righteous indignation going on here-

i can tell no one has worked a minimum wage job
and tried to pay their rent (and i dont mean a college job) -

the food were eating is picked every day by slaves-

i guarantee no one here has worked the fields-

the clothes were wearing and shoes and just about anything you pick up and turn over was made by slaves somewhere-

its nice and easy to be in the upper comfortable position of being moally opposed but every amrican is benefitting outright by slave labor right thi minute-

i just looked under my mouse- yup - made in china

peope are so quick to judge and so unable to imagine that most of the people in the world are too busy working as slaves today- and thinking that it has been eradicated-

the homeless shelters are full-
and this administration is planning in the next 4 years to shult all of them down-

and theyre packed with the underpinnings of society who lived paycheck to paycheck and fell through the cracks-

if only the labor board had the same rules of teatment of employees as the ones posted by Jahudite-

yes slavery is a painful subject-
but does anyone have any alternatives or even think for one second about the slaves themselves?

at least there are guidelines which- in a very real and practical sense we dont have in america-

theres nothing that stops an employer from working an employee 16 hours a day for minimum wage or lower and no overtime- and no health care- and if you get sick your replaced-

really what a dreamland people are in-

yet still can feel superior to others -

This bible excerpt surely will convert me to Christianity, since god is so circumspect in the slightest details:

Exodus 21:20-21 "And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money [property]."

Isn't it nice to be a slave, to be treated with such high regard, coming from god directly!

YES Brother David Hilzenrat et al.

RE: About THE PASSOVER LINE et al.

As “ESCAPED CONVICTS” or Slaves, and with Pharaoh's Son, inflamed with rage and passion, on chariot and with his back-up, close on their heels.... suddenly Drowns, due to one of many MIRACLE(S) mentioned. above. [SIMILAR]

Then: The People Wondered the desert, for forty years..... and the ex-idol worshipers were not yet sworn in as full fledged congregate “Jewish-Members or “Tribes” yet...... And it came to pass.... [SIMILAR]

Then: Many Miracles took place and it turns out that the so called “G-d of Israel” is made of some kind of HOLY LIGHT. And HE,not a SHE has a Cosmic Pen & he Etched, in whatever language, 10 Commandments on two tablets as a Contract for The People and Moses by him.

And Moses was up in that “Holy Mountain” for 40 days when these things happened. [SIMILAR]

Then: It came to pass.... Moses ordered and his designated Disciples et al, followed his orders and at times their own , ALL in the Name Of the Laws of their Lord.... and it came to pass , “GREAT TERROR(s) were committed ............. [SIMILAR].

Since then MAN KIND is going to be living on the Moon & Possibly Mars. And in between this point, there arose out of Mose's writings, two additional off springs of similar but distinct flavors of MONOISM (Which in both Truth and in reality is actually DUALISTIC).

They are CHRISTIANITY & ISLAM respectfully. And they, a/k/a/ ABRAHAMIC BELIEFS systems, also committed “MANY MANY HOLOCAUSTS” through out their development, in the course of human odyssey via tragedy, pain, suffering and destruction.

NOTE: Included in this religious growth phenomenon, there also evolved HINDUISM and the Off-Spring from Hinduism , begot BUDDHISM and some others, with similar MORALITY Living and some scary philosophy of a story or poetry.

DAVID et al:
EACH and Every One Of These Five Major religions have “BLOOD ON THEIR HANDS!”
Reticently, in England, I heard that ENGLAND is thinking of paying “Compensation” to black et al for their guilt of past SLAVERY involvement.

I know that Mohammad Islam had both “White & “Black” Slaves, not to mention owned a Nine (9) year young Wife. But the SARA PROSTITUTION STORY and the HAGAR REJECTION STOTY and even the cursed DRUNKEN NOAH STORY's and many others OLD SONGS!

The Portuguese et al, including 200 years agp our American FOUNDERS also owned Slaves.
Mr. Charles Sharptin of New York City is a living cosmic example. And not to mention OPREY Winters about her African ancestral trails.

So DAVID please don't worry or feel guilty in any way. What you are experiencing is called “POOF TIME” experience where one sees when once naive. And you are not alone because this is an EVOLUTION of religion or a natural process involving IT as just the survival of the fittest transformation with us creatures.

ATTACHED is something for you. Mean TIME Sholom & Happy Passach to ALL!

(((((((((( A BRIEF ENCOUNTER FOR A NEW WORLD ))))))))))

(((((((( PROOF ON WHY RELIGIOUS LAW SHOULD BE BANNED FOREVER ))))))))

USE YOUR ((( H.U.E.R.I.S.T.I.C.S ))) NOT RELIGION

Ladies & Gentlemen: “ LET HISTORY BE OUR JURY”

A SECULAR CASE, FOR A REALISTICSTIC RELIGION, SINCE ANCIENT TIMES

AND


THE BATTLE BETWEEN THE FITTEST MINDS, ON SPACESHIP MOTHER EARTH

“GENESIS Is a MIRACLE Itself. And NATURE Could Never Know SIN

and

“NO NATION, ever again, should claim for ITSELF a PRE-APOCALYPTIC RELIGION ”

and

ALL PEOPLE of ANY Pre-apocalyptic Faith or Belief SYSTEMS shall surrender unto

themselves that SYSTEM prophetically and spare their National Government none of IT.

By: Jacob Jozefs

HERE is the CASE for Poetic Justice by a Faithful OLD SONG for a NEW SONG:

JOKTAN > >United types: Secular & National Minded>


((( Vs. )))

PELIG > >Divided types: Religious & Tribal minded>

GENISIS & THE CRUX OF THE CASE SIMPLIFIED:
:

(1)In the Beginning of the DUE TO BE: (Utero) ECLAT (G-d) said, In thy TRANSFINITY “Let There Be” my REALITY in TEMPERATURE as TIME, “Let There Be” therein and Thereof, ALL my PHOTONIC LOVE (Light Spectrum) And it came to pass SOURCE-ONE (G-d) saw that this was RIGHTEOUS. IT (G-d) is IMPOSSIBLE For G-d To Break IT's Own LAW(S).

((((((( Vote SCIENCE not G-D )))))))

((((((( VOTE FOR SECULAR THINKING MINDS )))))))

((((((( Vote SCIENCE not G-D ))))))

USE YOUR (((H.U.E.R.I.S.T.I.C.S))) NOT RELIGION

(((( DOWN WITH IRAN's Rule By THEOCRACY ))))

(((((((((((( DOWN W/ SAUDI Style MONARCHY ))))))))))

((( Reward for MAHMOUD Ahmadinejad's TONGUE )))

(( DOWN WITH PERSIA's GOV. by THEOCRACY ))

The bible must be carefully studied and translated. It must be read in its entirety to see God's plan in perspective.

The choice of reading the bible literally vs not literally is a false choice set up by those who already are against the bible. I know of not one Christian who reads the bible literally. Sure, fundamentalists and conservatives pay close attention but they read everything carefully and in context.

Nicholas Price wrote:,

---Webb, therefore, concludes that we see a gradual improvement in the role of slaves throughout the biblical texts, not just from the surrounding cultures to Israelite and early Christian cultures, but even within the covenant community itself from the Old Testament to the New Testament. This is the “redemptive spirit” which he says needs to be applied, not necessarily the strict word of the text, as if the text was revealed in a vacuum rather than in a specific historical and cultural context. This is what points to God’s ultimate ideal of a completely redeemed and equal humanity, restoring them to His original plan with all humanity being equal because they were created in His image and likeness (Genesis 1:27).---

I'm sorry Nicholas but this is what I refer to as twisting the text to our liking. The "redemptive movement" is nothing more than making the text agree with the conclusion you want. If you cannot take the bible at its word, then you cannot take God at His word. Why would God say to beat your slave, but not until he/she dies, with the hope that eventually we humans would eventually figure out He really meant No Slavery?

Twist all you want, Christ moved God's word beyond the god of war of the Hebrews to to a God of love for all people. Its taken 2000 years to get to where christians are today and they still have a way to go, but the essence of Christ's words were that any God that made us would love us. Therefore, Christ did could not believe that the Old Testament was the literal word of God. That is something I've never heard any church leader explain. Instead we hear church leaders spin, ignore and wave off the plain words in the OT which we are told by some christian congregations is the word of God himself. Its clear to me Christ did not think they were God's words.

Sentences and paragraphs only have meaning when the words on the page are breathed into life by the consciousness of the reader.

Works of religious and cultural significance, the cannon of identity, values, and stories which fill the blank slate of childhood, -- create a perspective from which we interpet our world.

Thus (perhaps): the Bible and other such religious works (and in another context, our Constitution & legal code) are living documents, given life by our interpretation. They are important because they have significance in our culture and as a part of how we were raised, not necessarily because they are absolute.

However, just because such religious works are not absolute, does not mean that they don't have great value (potentially).

IMO, it appears that these great religous works can have great depths of meaning, and generations of scholarship have attested to this fact. -- But just like a great musical instrument, a Stradivarius violin is inert, and cannot convey beauty and melodic meaning until it is picked up by a player and exercised upon.

Maybe or maybe not, such religious works were "divinely" inspired by mystics or written by holy men with highly enlightened states of mind, and perhaps such works have historically contributed to, or speak to unconcious facets of the individual and/or group.

However one phenomenon of mind is evident: combinations of words can have many meanings (ie: poetry), but it takes a reader to exercise one's imagination and intelligence to use such a device to arrive at deeper states of understanding. And yet again, sometimes it is not what is said on a page (in a mathematical, literary, or religious text) that is important, but rather the results of the exercise the mind exerts when interpreting the ideas.

As individuals with some modicum of free will, it is up to us to pick what is good, and reject or reform what is bad for us. And choice helps us evolve for the better. -- Or else we play the role of dinosaurs and wallow in ignorant stagnation.

And in regards to slavery: while the Bible may not have explicitly condemned slavery, it is does not mean that we should not condemn such a repugnant practice. Reverberations of slavery still exist, because morally, our society does not condemn economic oppression & exploitation, wherein people are forced to toil in hardship and squalor for the sake of unfairly divided profit and the luxury & egos of their taskmasters.

--jsp akha Volt Rare

David, it seems that your guest voice post has inspired a generally more thoughtful stream of posts. It has made for interesting reading.

I do consider myself Christian, but I also believe you must use your God given talents of reason and intelligence when looking at scripture. And by scripture I include other traditions than the Judeo-Christian.

It is quite apparent that it is an error to take scripture out of the cultural context of the times when it was written. It belittles the mystery of God to confine what one concludes about God between the covers of a set of scriptures.

Slavery and genocidal wars were a culturally accepted given during the times when both the Old Testament and the New Testament were written. Therefore they suffuse the narrative and codes of those texts.

That said, in all the various scriptures can be found kernels of Truth that direct our vision to the One, the Ground of Being, and that is the best reason to continue to go back to the Scriptures, not to cling to a set of codes that had applicability 2000-3500 years ago.

Rev. Wright
When I was a soldier I Prayed for my life and God heard it.It was not elegant,just simple.
God listens.

David,

It as those passages, and more, that caused this former Christian to examine my faith in the bible which, after looking at nature, I came o see as merely the writings of man. There is no way that I could reconcile the creator of the laws of physics as the inspiration for such vile acts in the bible. I have abandoned those texts as much as the early Christians abandoned Greek and Roman myth.

Just as those early Christians were questioned over the abandonment of their former beliefs and the epics which framed the beliefs of those religions, I have been challenged as to how I could abandon the, "Word of God," and becme a Deist. It is to this I reply that you can only truly see God when you get your nose out of the book called the bible and look up and behold creation.

It is my hope that as more and more Christians, and Muslums too, read their works of religious truth and question the hate, violence, sexual deviance, condoning of war, and intolorance and offer the same questions that you do, come to the conclusion that there is no possible way that the Creator of the universe could have ever inspired or penned those works.

It is my hope that those who have not abandoned their belief in God to become Atheists that they find us. A place where we celebrate the uniquely human ability to believe in the divine and come together in community to form a new system of belief based on logic and reason instead of fear and punishment.

I cried as I read "The Age of Reason." I read Ethan Allens treatise on Deism and passages by Jefferson written in an age when turning your back on the church was social suicide. I read the documents which frame the founding of this country and joyously saw the absence of a particular prophet yet at the same ime, proclaiming the benevolence of the Creator over the sword of the prophets.

I am proud to be a Deist. I am happy to offer another way to look at God which doesn't attribute the devestation of tsunamis, earthquakes, and layoffs to God and doesn't turn God into some sort of omnipresent genie that one asks to have on their side during Little League baseball games, job interviews, airplane travel, and pulls on the one-armed bandit.

Deists simply offer prayer of thanks. We do this because it makes us feel good not because we believe in an anthropomorphic being that tries to listen in on every thought or word of humanity. Research at Duke University unequivocally disproves the effects on prayer on cardiac patients. Prayer for changes in the laws of nature don't work because, we believe, God created the universe perfectly in the beginning. Look at the formula representing the relationship between matter and energy...E=mc2...ELEGANT. SIMPLE. Prayer only serves the person praying. I admit that. But praying FOR things isn't right. Sorry for straying from topic.

If you have any other questions, please feel free to email me at keithwright at usa.net

Thank you,

Rev. Keith R. Wright

Dear David,

This is a great post and I thank you for asking the tough questions. One book that tries to address these issues is entitled "Slaves, Women, and Homosexuals: Exploring the Hermeneutics of Cultural Analysis" and is written by William Webb. It looks at this question about how biblical texts should be understood and applied. Do we apply them "literally" as stated in the text or is there a way to apply a more redemptive spirit to these issues? I think it is a very thoughtful resource, though it can be a bit academic in nature. Nevertheless, it is well worth the read and can better address this question than any post that I could write.

However, I would like to briefly address the quote about slavery that you referenced. It comes from Leviticus 24:44. I must admit it is a hard passage and one that I have wrestled with as well. I'll do my best to give an answer, but I will be the first to admit that this is not most exhaustive treatment of the issue. What I think we need to apply is what Webb refers to as the "redemptive movement" of the text. While slavery was sanctioned at this time, the Israelite system was an improvement when compared to the position of slaves in surrounding cultures of the day. For example, the Israelite law code made a clear provision for runaway slaves, declaring Israel as a safe zone for slaves who had escaped their masters (Deut 23:15-16, also noted in Webb). Likewise, slaves were given greater freedoms than those in surrounding cultures. Webb notes that, “Many Ancient Near Eastern and Greco-Roman cultures gave slaves time off for festival holidays. By comparison, however, the extent of holidays for festivals (Deut 16:10-11; 31:10-13) and for the weekly Sabbath rest (Ex 23:12) in Israel was very generous” (Webb 74). He also notes that freed slaves were given material assistance upon their release, whereas other surrounding cultures made no such provisions (Webb 75).

The Bible takes this redemptive movement even further when we come to the New Testament. In several of his letters Paul addresses the issue of slavery very clearly. In his letter to Philemon he writes on behalf of the returning slave Onesimus, who he encourages Philemon to receive “no longer as a slave but more than a slave, as a beloved brother—especially to me, but how much more to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord. So if you consider me your partner, receive him as you would receive me” (Philemon vv. 16-17). Likewise, in his letter to the Galatians he writes, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus” (v. 3:28). Here he notes that within the redeemed community, there should be nothing to distinguish people as greater or inferior to one another, but rather they are all equals because of Christ. He then points to how this equality is God’s desire for the whole of humankind.

Now some detractors will note Paul’s writing in Ephesians 6:5, commanding slaves to be obedient to their masters. Likewise, they will note Peter’s command where he writes, “Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust” (1 Peter 2:18). However, in both of these examples the reason for such endurance is to point to the redemptive power of Christ and hopefully bring about a change in heart for the masters which they serve. So here the idea is not to perpetuate slavery as a system, but rather to draw people to the redemptive picture of all people being made in the image of God through Christ.

Webb, therefore, concludes that we see a gradual improvement in the role of slaves throughout the biblical texts, not just from the surrounding cultures to Israelite and early Christian cultures, but even within the covenant community itself from the Old Testament to the New Testament. This is the “redemptive spirit” which he says needs to be applied, not necessarily the strict word of the text, as if the text was revealed in a vacuum rather than in a specific historical and cultural context. This is what points to God’s ultimate ideal of a completely redeemed and equal humanity, restoring them to His original plan with all humanity being equal because they were created in His image and likeness (Genesis 1:27).

I realize that this is not an exhaustive answer to your very good and honest questions, but it is a start. As I said, I would encourage you to pick up Webb’s book because it provides an insightful glimpse into biblical hermeneutics and begins to get at the heart of some of these issues. It really is a helpful tool and one that I think could contribute to this conversation.

I also wanted to say that your book "Jezebel's Tomb" sounds very fascinating and I would be very interested in reading it.

Sincerely,

Nicholas Price

Lyn said "
oh, and by the way jwest, i never said the bible didn't apply anymore, i said the word that was used had a different meaning then than it does now. big difference".)
So how are we to know exactly what the big difference is?? People such as yourself that claim a great knowledge of the bible say it won't be revealed unless we know jesus. Then he unlocks the secret code and it all becomes clear. Can you share with us the words that changed meaning from then and tell us what they mean now. I suppose slavery meant to take someone as you see fit as long as you want. I think you read into it what you want.

Fate,

I would never argue your point that there are things that were written in the Bible for people at that particular time that are not for people today to follow. I do not believe that everything in the Bible was written for all people of all times to practice. I know that there are Christians who say that, but that is not my belief.

Of course the reason slavery was practiced in the U.S. was because of people interpreting the Bible as giving them permission to enslave people.

2 "If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.
5 "But if the servant declares, 'I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,' 6 then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.

7 "If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.

20 "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, 21 but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

26 "If a man hits a manservant or maidservant in the eye and destroys it, he must let the servant go free to compensate for the eye. 27 And if he knocks out the tooth of a manservant or maidservant, he must let the servant go free to compensate for the tooth.

28 "If a bull gores a man or a woman to death, the bull must be stoned to death, and its meat must not be eaten. But the owner of the bull will not be held responsible. 29 If, however, the bull has had the habit of goring and the owner has been warned but has not kept it penned up and it kills a man or woman, the bull must be stoned and the owner also must be put to death. 30 However, if payment is demanded of him, he may redeem his life by paying whatever is demanded. 31 This law also applies if the bull gores a son or daughter. 32 If the bull gores a male or female slave, the owner must pay thirty shekels of silver to the master of the slave, and the bull must be stoned.

Sorry, that last one was mine.

What we are seeing in these postings here is exactly what David is writing about in his essay. He says he was brought up believing the bible was a book about good things, until he actually read and studied it. Its sounds like Lyn has not studied it yet and is still at the stage where the "interpretations" learned about the bible are accepted.

No wonder we need priests and rabbis to tell us what is in the bible. If we actually read it ourselves we'd toss it. Religious leaders interpreting the bible so "slavery" means "gainful employment" sure makes it more paletable for Lyn and others I guess.

Fate,

Excellent points. You did a much better job of making my point than I did. Thank you.

Lyn,

How do you know that I am ignorant? As far as I can tell I made no claims about any knowledge large or small on ancient Hebrew customs. I was merely thanking you for being you.

Just curious, why was slavery legal in the United States for over 400 years? Good Christian men where behind this horrible practice. Surly as you have pointed out, it could not possibly have been because of the Bible. Obviously any fool can tell that "slavery" in the Bible was not the slavery (my how we do get caught up with that word. What IS up with you people?) of the 1700s in Georgia lets say.

Thank goodness that God provided that verse that let us know that it is wrong for some humans to own, buy and/or sell other humans.

Wait, He didn't? Hmmm. But he did remember to tell us that eating shelfish is an abomination. Interesting.

However the rules of slavery and references to slavery (obviously the good, fun, no-big-deal kind that you endorse) is mentioned dozens and dozens of times throughout the Bible.

So I wonder how it happened for over 400 years in a Christian nation such as the US was (ah the good old days) could slavery existed with the full blessing of the church and government?

Could it have been because of God referring to it so often in the Bible and never outlawing it?

Although thankfully he did take time out to outlaw the wearing of clothing from mixed fibers, praise his name! But the whole humans owning humans he did not get around to. But he did speak of slaves often, and concubines, servants, wives, soldiers, employees, etc.

Hmmm, slavery sure does seem to mean slavery...

Nah, you are probably right.

I don't have time or the answers to address all the supposed contradictions you raise, but your contradiction re: Judas and the 30 pieces of silver is based on a misunderstanding of the reading in Acts 1.

Luke, the writer of Acts, tells us that Judas's iniquity purchased the field of blood. This is a poetic way of saying that the sinful actions of betrayal and the shame-ridden suicide he inflicted upon himself had "bought" the potter's field, Akeldama, or the field of blood.

The other biblical accounts say that the high priests in the Temple could not reclaim the 30 pieces of silver because they were blood money (paid Judas to deliver unto death Christ). So the money was unholy for use in the Temple treasury. As such, the money was used to purchase the field in which Judas killed himself.

In that way, Judas's iniquity furnished the means of paying for the field. He certainly did not kill himself after making a real estate investment.

Lyn wrote:
This "slavery" was service by choice, not by coercion.

Lyn, you are partially correct. In the case of self imposed indenture servitude for example, but as someone else pointed out, that is not slavery though it was call that back then. Here is a little website which has many biblical passages about slavery:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/sla_bibl1.htm
You will see that slavery back then ranged from indentured servitude to complete coercive slavery, including rape of "maids" when a mans wife could not bear children, beatings and other harsh treatemnt. And its all outlined by God. Would you God outline such treatment of anyone? Look at it hard ... its your God's word.

What amazes me while reading these postings here is not how people argue that slavery was a form of job back then so was not like 19th century slavery, but they ignore that God said to the Isrealites to kill whole cities, men, women and children. Moses ordered prisoners executed in cold blood with some of the virgins saved to be slaves. No, the bible, like the Quran, was written in relatively barbaric times. They are not what we should be basing our morality on. We, humanity today, have moved morally beyond anything the writers of the bible, and Christ, could have imagined.

LYN:

You say the slavery the Bible condones was service by choice, not coercion.

How do you interpret commandments such as these:

Regarding female Hebrew slaves: “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not be freed as male slaves are.” (Exodus 21:7)

Regarding foreign slaves, both male and female: “You may keep them as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property for all time. Such you may treat as slaves. But as for your Israelite kinsmen, no one shall rule ruthlessly over the other.” (Leviticus 25:45-46)

Similarly, how do you interpret passages such as Numbers 31, in which the Midianites are massacred at God’s command – except for the virgin females, who are taken as plunder?

Jess and Jwest,

I'm so glad you are comfortable in your uninformed knowledge of biblical history and ancient Hebrew customs. Ignorance must truly be bliss.

Just please make sure you at least try to learn a little more before you pass your "knowledge" on to anyone else.

(oh, and by the way jwest, i never said the bible didn't apply anymore, i said the word that was used had a different meaning then than it does now. big difference.)

Keep tellin' yourself that Lyn. Just adorable. Thanks for telling us all what we need to be studying, although you fail to offer any examples or references. Glad your here to keep everyone strait.

Lyn
By golly you just proved an overarching point of discussion that the bible no longer applies to modern times. It all had a complete different meaning then than it does today. It may have made better sense when it was written.. Today it just doesn't really apply. Slavery is a no no and it probably wasn't very much fun then either. Remember these words were written by men many thousand and hundreds of years ago with limited knowledge or education. Since people owned slaves it must be a god given right to own slaves. Lots of stuff was nothing more then someone's idea of how things were at that time.

Slavery in its literal form was used many times in the old testament. What many forget to understand is how God uses these acts on account of Christ. Christ brings the new and we are now slaves to God. Just as in the "law" does not apply to us anymore since we are saved through grace. Now, contradictions in the Bible are simply misinterpretations. Any supposed contradiction needs to be backed up with another form of scripture. I went through my phase of thinking the Bible had too many contradictions too, but when I learned HOW to study the Bible, those contradictions were all just misinterpretations. To stay open minded while studying the Bible is key to God proving Himself as reality. God said to "challenge everything," including Himself so that He may be proven correct. So I encourage everyone to challenge Him. You cannot prove Him wrong as I found out. And now I am proud to be a slave in Christ.

Hello Many?,and David
The question(who did the devil and God buy mankind from,was there a mankind market back then?)
The answer is yes.
Mankind was created free,and given authority over creation,yet apparently wanted something more.
satan offered them a deal to be like God.
Mankind accepted satan's offer.
And just what did it cost Mankind?
Well what capital did humanity have in their portfolio back then?Lets see ,they had--their freedom and authority over creation.
Wich was just satan's asking price,--he was paid In Full.
Present Humanity is left with a fragment of it's earlier treasures.
That fragment is but a remnant of our
former freedom.It is known to us as Freewill Choice,wich was purchased by Christ at a tremendous price and given back to us.Yea,there was a mankind market back then,and your Freewill choice is the Blue Chip in your portfolio today.You can buy something with it or you can sell it's a freewill choice. David I havent followed your writings but plan to do so,good luck to you.

This "slavery" was service by choice, not by coercion. It amazes me that so many of you here can get so hung up on a single word, and you must insist that your modern definition of the word fits ancient customs. You all need to do some studying of ancient historical times and customs, and then come back and answer this question. Honestly, do not insist on something that you do not know.

Kirk,

What many people fail to understand is that slavery in Biblical times was very different from the slavery that was practiced in the past few centuries in many parts of the world. The slavery in the Bible was not based exclusively on race. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was more of a social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their family. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their master.

There are many places where you can find this exact information. I do not think you will find something to refute this. The Hebrew slaves of Egypt were victims of racial slavery, which was not tolerated.

Anon,

Thanks for the link to the Palmer's sermon. It reminds me of an interview I remember hearing on the radio of a black man hired into an all white company back in the 1940s. One day the company owner, a woman, called him into the office to get his unique perspective. She asked him what he thought Truman was doing by integrating the armed forces and driving the races apart. You see, blacks and whites were getting along just fine.

It seems mankind has an ability to ignore reality and accept customs as normal. More than normal, a requirement for survival. Slavery was supported by god and man according to Palmer and as natural as breathing. In the 1930s it would have been considered abnormal by both blacks and whites for a black and white person to go to war side-by-side or even work on the factory floor side-by-side.

Today, gays are closeted, denied rights of inheritence and medical decision making for their partners. Today women are slowly making equal pay for equal work. Today American teens are ignored by all levels of society except for companies looking to make a dollar off of them. Today, companies run by church-going christians and temple-going jews look to move harmful products onto store shelves and belch harmful toxins into the air and water sickening us all, then lobby Congress to let them continue to harm people, which those religious congressmen and women do.

Hopefully, as our human societies evolve, dropping barbaric customs and tolerating people's differences, humanity will reach a much better level of equality and understanding than we even have today in America. Hopefully our decendents will look back at this era and wonder how we could think the way we do, as we look at Palmer's words and wonder how he could think that way. And none of it will be due to the bible which would have us all living in Palmer's day, happy we have food and shelter no matter our status, just as long as we believe in God.

If you want society to progress and the world to be a better place, the last place to look for answers is in the bible and other ancient texts. Man's progress toward equality and observing the Golden Rule has not been due to the bible but has been in spite of it.

AMA,

It is unfortunate that many believers do not want to study and analyze the Bible and the history surrounding it more. I am a believer who has, and still does, and it has enriched my beliefs tremendously. For example, if Mr. Hilzenrath had done just a little studying, he would have known that the slavery he mentions from the Bible is nothing like the slavery that he tries to compare it to. Some people don't realize that words can have slightly different meanings over hundreds and thousands of years.

But I do think the majority of Christians realize that the Bible had many authors, all of whom were inspired by God.

Sorry Anonymous,

The Bible characters had servants and employees as well as slaves. Slaves were just that: slaves. If they were something different then they would not be referred to as slaves.

Sorry Anon., the Bible does not forbid slavery, sadly it endorses it. Not my opinion, it's there in the book.

It seems that there are many people who regard the Bible "as the literal, infallible Truth," as our guest voice described it. Believers tend to explain this as a component of their "faith." I'm looking for a more scientific explanation for why believers have elected not to use fully their analytical skills in examining the text of the Bible. It seems that believers have blinders on that they refuse to take off when contradictions, inconsistencies, and irrationalities are pointed out. Rather than examine the text critically, believers will stop any such effort too early and claim that it's a "mystery" that can be understood only with faith. Why can't believers accept that the Bible is a compilation of stories from many anonymous authors over a large period of time?

Well, yes Norrie, but it was called slavery at that time.

Jwest,

Very nice. I can't fathom why religious groups would have a problem with that. The wonders of the universe are incredible for anyone to be able to see...

Anonymous,

You write: slaves "... entered into slavery agreements as a way to pay off debts of one kind or another. Others sold themselves as slaves as their form of employment; they had no other skills, and in this way they were fed, clothed and housed, and treated like a member of the family. And many stayed on for life, because it was such a sweet deal."

If that's what they did, they were not slaves and they were not in slavery. They had voluntarily entered into a condition of "indentured service."

This is exactly what a recruit does when he enlists with the armed forces for a set term of years.

I copied this from another of my posts and thought i would share it here as well. I C/P from google.

So nothing of import existed until man came along. Wow, I'll have to tell that to the Sun and Moon and stars. supernovas neutron stars, planets comets. Since I've been visiting this blog, post or otherwise discussion, I see how conceited man is for his/her god. The voyager space craft turned its camera back to earth and took a picture of it. This picture you can find by googling "pale blue dot", was protested by many religious groups who didn't want earth people to see just how small we really are.

Carl Sagan said the following quotation on May 11, 1996 about what he felt the photo demonstrated:[3]

We succeeded in taking that picture [from deep space], and if you look at it, you see a dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there — on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.

The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors, so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the Universe, are challenged by this point of pale light.

Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves. The Earth is the only world known so far to harbor life. There is nowhere else, at least in the near future, to which our species could migrate. Visit, yes. Settle, not yet. Like it or not, for the moment the Earth is where we make our stand. It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known.

Posted March 28, 2007 12:59 PM

James:

I always liked the saying "everything I need to know I learned in kindergarten" Excellent way to look at life. There are even posters with everything on it. That's how life should be lived. Right there.

Sam Harris has an extensive documentation of the Bible's endorsement of Slavery in Letters to a Christian Nation.

It's worse than the writer here thinks.

Bible morality is often barbaric. Norrie is right.

Even The 10 commandments are superfluous. Only 4 or 5 are about morality,
and many Ape societies follow those as well as humans do.

The 10 Commandments were an ex post facto version of the morality most human groups had been following for millenia.

I personally derive my Morality from the Iliad and the Nibelungenlied.

I came across this interesting historical note while reading the book "The Emergence of Lincoln, Vol II: Prologue to Civil War 1859-1861" by Allan Nevins (Chapter 14, The Rival Republic, section II, page 418) on what was being preached in the Southern pulpits with respect to the election of Lincoln and those "Black Republicans" and slavery:
"...The Thanksgiving sermons of the Rev. B. M. Palmer, head of the largest Presbyterian church in New Orleans, and the Rev. W. T. Leacock, his Episcopal colleague, two stirring exhortations to secession which were scattered broadcast in pamphlet form, were long remembered....[8]"

Now to the footnote [8] and this very interesting quote:

"The two sermons were printed together in 'The Rights of the South Defended in the Pulpits,' and were notable for their violent tone. Palmer declared that it was the South's duty under God 'to conserve and perpetuate the institution of domestic slavery as now existing,' and that 'the abolition spirit is undeniably atheistic.'..."
Here is a link to the sermon I found on the web to Benjamin Morgan Palmer's "Thanksgiving Sermon" of November 29, 1860:
http://members.aol.com/jfepperson/palmer.htm

The Bible (God’s word) provides guidance on such details as what food to eat or not eat (what happens if there is famine --- does God say then its OK to eat a ham and cheese sandwich?), circumcision or not, shave or not, clothing to ware, etc…, along with other issues vastly smaller than the morality of slavery. That those who suffer the delusion that the Holy Bible is the perfect word of the one true God telling us absolutely what is morally right vs. wrong would make up all kinds of weird convoluted illogical rationalizations, i.e. garbage, for the Bible’s support of slavery is not surprising --- but going so far as to say that “the abolition spirit is undeniably atheistic” as the Palmer said is just too much --- incredible!

Speed 123,

Ooo, ooo, pick me, pick me!

That's not what kind of slaves they were, Friend. Many entered into slavery agreements as a way to pay off debts of one kind or another. Others sold themselves as slaves as their form of employment; they had no other skills, and in this way they were fed, clothed and housed, and treated like a member of the family. And many stayed on for life, because it was such a sweet deal.

Is this blog about faith or about selling books, Mr. Hilz?

On a similar note, is the Washington Post about news or about entertainment?

Tough questions, tough answers.

David Hilzenrath,

It was Thoreau or Emerson who wrote:

"A man is rich in proportion to the things he can do without."

You may not think so at first glance, but you would be richer and happier if you did without the Old Testament.

As you demonstrated, it only sows confusion and trouble.

Give it up and turn to better things.

Yeah, if the maid quits, give a good beaten', master.

Fate wrote:

"There is no such thing as a "good master"."

Sure there is. They are called employers of maids, and butlers, and chauffeurs, and valets, and cooks, and nannies, and gardeners. These are the modern day "slaves". They do the jobs that the "slaves" back then did.

That last posting was mine...

Jahudite wrote:
---A good master is one who speaks softly and listens to what his slave has to say. In short, a Jewish master is one who affirms that his slave, like himself, is made in God’s image.---

There is no such thing as a "good master". No American would ever say that. No civilized person would ever consider it.

---Verses in the book that are morally problematic call upon us to have the religious courage to read against the grain so that we can hear God’s voice in the process of reading.---

And what does that mean? Be good to a slave? So the verse is leaning toward being a good person? What kind of twisted logic is this? Was the fact that Hitler fought communism make Hitler's war in essence good? Slavery is evil. It dehumanizes a person, and if you believe in God, one of God's children. But then, God was the God of the Jews until the christians adopted him. A God of the Jews would care less for other people, as David points out in the Passover Story.

Take the good and leave the bad in the bible. All you need to do is see how Islamic extremists who believe their Quran to be literal are killing not only non-muslims but each other as well. These ancient "holy" texts keep drawing man, who is continually working to better himself morally and physically, back thousands of years to less moral days. If God gave you a brain then he probably meant for you to think with it. Otherwise you'd be following your bible strictly and allowing hunger, totalitarian governments, kings, supression and viewing your neighbors of different religions as ripe for enslaving.

---If the Bible is to be regarded as the literal, infallible Truth, how are we to make sense of its contradictions?---

You would do what many christians and jews do, ignore the part you don't like and accept the part you do. Or twist the parts you do not like until they are acceptable.

---And how are we to reconcile our own notions of morality with God’s law when God’s commandments embrace such injustices as slavery?---

Good question. Maybe we should stop looking to the bible, an ancient text, for morality. Most of humanity has grown beyond even the best notions of the bible. Slavery is abhorent but ok with the bible. The bible says there will always be poor yet in America it is almost eliminated and work continues to eliminate it. And most countries have expanded their laws well beyond the 10 Moses says God gave him. Humanity keeps striving to better itself while judeo-christians keep thumping the bible to hold humanity back to laws set down 2000 years ago and older.

Canyon Shearer wrote:
---The reason the Bible doesn't condemn slavery is the same reason it doesn't speak out against atheistic communistic governments. Paul said that any government is better than no government. Slavery guarantees food, shelter, and more medical care than being homeless/jobless.---

Thank God that today we do not heed the words of Paul and just accept whatever government is in power. Thank God that today we do not say slaves should be happy to have food and shelter. My God Canyon, Paul was wrong unless you think he was writing only about practical things. I thought Paul's writings were about morality, God's will and right/wrong. If the bible is about being practical in 100 CE then lets throw the whole book out because I would rather live with the freedoms of today, and fight any government to keep these freedoms, than go back and live the practical life then.

Fair enough question;

We are born the first time into the family of God; through an innate trust in God are we sanctified until we reach the age of accountability. At that age, which is different for everyone, you commit a transgression which really hits you right in the conscience. For me it was stealing a bag of marbles at five years old; I know for a fact that was the day I was kicked out of the family of God and where I gave my soul to the devil.

The Bible says that our transgressions have made us a child of wrath, of the devil, of disobedience, an enemy of righteousness, separated from God, and doomed to Hell.

As I hope you know, Jesus Christ came and lived the perfect sinless life, was the only one that was God's child from the beginning of His life right up until the end. In order that we can be reconciled to our Heavenly Father, Christ stepped in and took our punishment and attributed His righteousness to our sake.

If you'll receive this Gift of righteousness and atonement by Repenting of your sins and placing your faith in Jesus Christ, then you will be Born-Again into the family of God; you will become a child of God once more, and you will inherit Heaven, not because you're a good person, but because you're a bad person who's been forgiven by a good God and are allocated as an heir to His Kingdom.

Torah and slavery

According to Rabbi Bradley Shavit Artson is Dean and Vice President of the Ziegler School of Rabbinic Studies, University of Judaism (http://www.socialaction.com/education_resources/
weekly_torah/vayikra_leviticus/Bhar/Slavery_and_Torah.shtml)

God’s voice cannot be contained between the covers of any book (or set of books). Just as each wave on the shore leaves a new mark in the sand, each holy book marks another refraction of God’s Torah, so that Torah min ha-Shamayim describes a process that is very much alive and electric.

How, with such an approach, would we understand the painful presence of slavery in the book of Torah?

Seen as process, the issue would be not what was in Leviticus, but how Jewish tradition insisted on reading that presence. How does the process of Torah deal with the existence of slavery in the book of the Leviticus? For it is the process, not the book, that is authoritative, in which God’s voice is to be found. As the Zohar recognizes: “Just as wine must be in a jar to keep, so the Torah must be contained in an outer garment. The garment is made up of the tales and stories, but we, we are bound to penetrate beyond.”

Let us penetrate beyond the outer garment, the book of Leviticus, to uncover the process of Torah within. Let us look at one authoritative reading, that of the great Rabbi Moses ben Maimon (the Rambam):

It is permitted to work an eved K’nani (Canaanite) with rigor. Though such is the law, it is the quality of piety and the way of wisdom that a man be merciful and pursue justice and not make his yoke heavy upon his slave or distress him, but give him to eat and to drink of all foods and drinks. The sages of old let the slave eat of every dish that they themselves ate and they fed... the slaves before they themselves sat down to eat... Thus also the master should not disgrace them by hand or by word, because Scripture has delivered them only to slavery and not to disgrace. Nor should he heap upon the slave oral abuse and anger, but should rather speak to him softly and listen to his claims.

The Rambam accepted the fact of the law—slavery was technically permissible and one could ruthlessly oppress one’s slave. Yet he also understood the values of Torah to make it a religious obligation to be merciful and just towards slaves. In fact, he insisted that one ought to share the same foods, and allow the slaves to eat first as a demonstration of compassion. A good master is one who speaks softly and listens to what his slave has to say. In short, a Jewish master is one who affirms that his slave, like himself, is made in God’s image.

Verses in the book that are morally problematic call upon us to have the religious courage to read against the grain so that we can hear God’s voice in the process of reading.

canyon shearer

You can't justify confusion with more confusion. Just who did the devil and god buy mankind from. was there a mankind market back then?

Fair enough, the Bible says to make your calling and election sure. Questions are good, if you have the proper tutelage; but it is a dangerous and terrible thing to go looking for contradictions in the Bible without any effort to reconcile them...because EVERY supposed contradiction has an EASY reconciliation.

The reason the Bible doesn't condemn slavery is the same reason it doesn't speak out against atheistic communistic governments. Paul said that any government is better than no government. Slavery guarantees food, shelter, and more medical care than being homeless/jobless. That is the practical reason, the spiritual reason is similar to marriage as an example of our relationship to God. The Bible says in 2 Tim 2:26 that the devil takes captives. No need to say, "I'd sell my soul to the devil for...", because your soul has already been freely given to the devil through transgression. It is this reason for 1 Cor 6:20, which says Christ has purchased us. We are either owned by the devil or by God, there isn't a middle ground in spiritual warfare.

All other 'contradictions' are easily reconciled once you have been purchased into the family of God; but the things of God are foolishness to the natural man, and until you've repented and put your trust in Jesus Christ that His atoning work has purchased you from the ownership of the Devil, you will be able to find 'contradictions' in the Bible and will swallow them up like poison.