Jesus Tomb: Reasons to be Skeptical
The discovery of the so-called “Tomb of Jesus” takes me back -- back to November 2002 to the annual meeting of the Society of Biblical Literature in Toronto.
There we were asked to assess a dramatic announcement made public a few days before: That someone had discovered the James Ossuary – the reburial box for the bones of the brother of Jesus.
Five years later, the consensus is that the “brother of Jesus” portion of the box was added to an original inscription that read “James son of Joseph.” And Oded Golan, the owner of the ossuary, is standing trial in Israel accused of antiquities fraud.
The people involved in the latest tomb discovery story are different but the story line is similar.
According to a new Discovery Channel documentary and a companion book, a tomb unearthed in the Talpiyot neighborhood of Jerusalem in 1980 contains the bones of Jesus, Mary, Joseph and Judah, son of Jesus.
They also claim that the James Ossuary is real and came from the same tomb.
I was one of the early skeptics of the James Ossuary. I questioned whether the latter part of the inscription was original or had been added.
I was also critical of the fact that the artifact was "unprovenanced" -- its place of origin unknown -- and should not have been given the kind of reception and regard it instantly achieved when the Royal Ontario Museum signed on and planned a show on short notice.
I’m just as skeptical of the new claims and I’m not alone.
Professor Amos Kloner, former chief archaeologist for Jerusalem, who excavated the Talpiot tomb 27 years ago, says the dimensions of the so-called James Ossuary do not match and could not have come from the Talpiot tomb.
Other archaeologists are skeptical because the “Jesus Family” tomb is quite out of the ordinary and the names are as common as any that are found in the First Century.
Biblical scholars are skeptical, as well. Reburial in an ossuary would place Jesus in the mainstream of a custom that was more common in Judea than in Galilee, in Jerusalem than in Nazareth. Only the most pious Jews were believed to have practiced such a custom.
Religious leaders are skeptical, if not outraged, about claims that the “Jesus Family” tomb proves there was no resurrection, or that Jesus had a son, with or without Mary Magdalene.
Are we really to believe that the empty-tomb traditions of the New Testament are untrue?
Are we to believe that the body of Jesus was conveyed from the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea, buried elsewhere, and then reburied in a tomb in the southernmost tip of Jerusalem, thus contradicting New Testament sources?
Relax.
While we shouldn’t dismiss outright all the claims being made about the “Jesus Family” tomb, we should be skeptical.
We should allow archaeologists and biblical scholars to sift through the findings.
We should continue to investigate more fully not only the contents of these tombs, but also their social and religious contexts.
And we should remember this: Regardless of the outcome of the debate, there are many paths to the truth. Archeology is only one of them, and when it challenges the traditional wisdom of generations of scholars and theologians, we have a right to be skeptical.
By Eric M. Meyers |
March 5, 2007; 11:22 AM ET
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Deanna – I wanted to write a bit before you come back.
It seems you have a very personal, well considered and deep theology. I’m guessing that it’s deeper than most people’s, but really don’t know, because I haven’t heard many people talk about it. When I say “personal” I don’t mean it in the sense of having a personal relationship with God, but that your perceptions are personally developed – not based solely or mainly on church teachings or religious reading or instruction. Is that right? If so, it’s quite different from the “Sunday school/church sermon” concept of religion (“Here are the things you’re supposed to believe and supposed to do to lead a good life and get into heaven”) that is often represented in these discussions. It’s also different from other approaches – the non-believer who just decided or realized that religion didn’t make any sense, and the non-believer who came to that conclusion based on extensive study.
Your religion seems to bring you great comfort without the need to adhere to certain beliefs or exclude people who don’t believe as you do. It’s Christian-based, but not dependent on towing a Christian line.
There’s also a very spiritual aspect to your faith, that you’ve mentioned elsewhere. What I’ve learned, listening to others here, is that spiritual experiences happen to both believers and non-believers. However, when a Christian has a spiritual experience, they (including you) relate it to a personal visit or blessing from Jesus – whereas non-believers relate it to a feeling of oneness with the universe. Some Christians response to a spiritual experience is to accept all the teachings of the bible and dogma of the church, but that doesn’t seem to be your response.
It’s all very interesting and difficult to sort out.
Posted by: E favorite | March 16, 2007 11:48 PM
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Thank you so much, Deanna - I will read this carefully before your next response.
I've been checking back here regularly and am very happy to hear from you.
Hope your upcoming activities go well. Looking forward to continuing the dialogue when you return.
Posted by: E Favorite | March 8, 2007 10:00 PM
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Dear E Fave,
This discussion keeps hopping all over the place -- no doubt because the "Who Was Jesus" thread was freezing up everyone's computers. Rather than jump over to today's thread, I stay here for the moment.
In brief (and I must be brief, as I have pressing demands the next few days and then will be out of touch for about a week), I DO believe in an afterlife, but eternity is just the icing on the cake. I'm living in God's grace right here, right now (GRACE - God's Reward At Christ's Expense)
Actually, I speak the word's of the Apostles Creed once or twice every week -- and as I do, I try very hard to think about what I'm saying and if I do, in fact, believe it.
I most emphatically DO believe in the first article of the creed: "I believe in God the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth." [and that "singularity" at the very, very beginning of the Big Bang only strengthens my belief, along with the incredible precision and balance in the Universe.] Also, there is this place at the very core of my being that resonates with love for a higher power -- a supernatural creative force -- who is beyond my comprehension, but who comprehends me through and through -- and even so, loves me unconditionally.
I also believe, although not as strictly or quite as strongly, in the second article -- the one about Christ. I do believe in the God who always comes down. I believe Christ was 100% human -- in that he felt pain and suffered as a human, felt love and friendship, compassion and pity for his fellow humans -- but he was also 100% divine, without sin. I doubt he knew he was God as an infant or even as a young boy. I think he began to recognize his specialness as he entered his teens, but it was not until he reached adulthood that he sensed his unity with God. But I do believe he walked this earth as a human being and taught His counterintuitive, upside-down, inside-out theology. If you really examine His statements closely, He was in many ways the world's first communist.
As an aside, it always kind of puzzles me when I read the Muslims' posts where they say Christ cannot be the son of God because Allah would never do that. Do they know the mind of Allah? The one thing I will always insist on is that I do NOT know or understand the ways of God. If God is God, there is nothing s/he cannot do, and, as Christ makes abundantly clear in the parables of the prodigal son, the lost sheep, and the widow's lost coin, there is nothing more precious to God than his children. However, like the father in the parable of the prodigal son, he (God) waits for us to realize what is missing in our life and turn back to Him. I read the Muslims' posts, and I see them putting limits on Allah's powers. I also have problems with some of what I have heard about Mohammed's life. Even remembering that Haggar and Ishmael left the tribe of Abraham well before Moses' time, the practices Islam seems to endorse don't sit comfortably on my heart.
As for the third article, ditto the second. I don't actually comprehend fully what some of the phrases mean, but I'm working on trying to figure them out.
You're right -- my faith does not require that every word of the Bible be the divinely inspired word of God -- and I don't think it is. Much of it is the paeans and plaints of ancient mankind to a divine force they "knew" existed, but they dressed him up in a form that fit the morality of their particular frame of reference. And it is the rendering of centuries' old oral tradition. The Old Testament is commonly referred to as "The Law and the Prophets."
Christ came, as prophesied, to fulfill the demands of the Law.
This is a far from adequate answer to your sincere and heart-felt questions. In fact, some of it sounds downright "religious right-ish" I'm pressed for time, and my faith is not the easiest thing for me to explain in terms that don't sound like I've bought into all the history and dogma of the Christian church and its proponents without though and soul-searching. But I also don't want to resort to explaining it as the "ineffable experience of the divine" which is actually close to the truth, but one most people, whether religious or not, don't readily accept -- and I'm not talking about seeing Christ's face on the side of the World Trade Center (or a refrigerator in New Mexico or wherever) either. I've never "seen" God, but I have been touched by Him through the love of others, and my eyes and mind tell me He's there. Just look at the universe! Look at those things that make us a different order of mammal -- like the intelligence to unravel the mysteries of life and altruism. That's another one of those Catch 22s of evolution -- which I very much believe is fact! If altruism arose as a genetic modification during the evolution of humans, how did it manage to survive to reproduce in the face of acts of altruism? 'Tis a puzzlement.
I will try to do a better job collecting my thoughts and give you an intelligent reply sometime after the 18th.
Posted by: Deanna | March 8, 2007 3:25 PM
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To Interested (and I hope Prof. Meyers is listening):
Thanks for your information about Eric Meyers. As a leading archeologist, or expert in any field, I think he has a responsibility to be exceptionally clear when addressing the public. Thus, I’m disturbed when he makes statements that imply that tradition is on an equal footing with archeological findings. As a biblical scholar, I suppose he is used to choosing his words carefully to avoid offending religious believers, but I fear scholars (and clergy) are ultimately doing themselves and the public a disservice by being misleading.
For instance, for scholars, it seems “tradition” is a code word “the way things are done or the way people believe, for which there is no scientific or historical evidence.” However, I’m pretty sure non-expert, regular folks don’t hear it this way and am even more sure that scholars don’t attempt to make the distinction clear (with Prof. Meyers’ essay as an example).
For instance, when he says: “Are we really to believe that the empty-tomb traditions of the New Testament are untrue?” -- The implication is that “traditions” could be untrue, when actually “truth” in the academic sense is not a requirement for any tradition.
Also he says, “Are we to believe that the body of Jesus was conveyed from the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea, buried elsewhere, and then reburied in a tomb in the southernmost tip of Jerusalem, THUS CONTRADICTING NEW TESTAMENT SOURCES.” [caps added]. Meanwhile, Prof. Meyers knows full well that the whole story of the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea is not academically confirmed. It’s another tradition, like much of what’s found in the old and new testaments. I can see why he wouldn’t want to get into that can of worms, but I do think he and others like him have a professional responsibility not to mislead further.
Would you want your physician to put snake oil on an equal footing with penicillin when choosing a medical treatment?
In his defense, I do think it becomes second-nature to address the public this way; that is, to speak as an expert without ruffling feathers or stirring major controversy. Unfortunately, the result can be maintaining or furthering ignorance and misinformation.
I agree with Prof. Meyers’ assessment of the Jesus tomb as a hoax, for all the scientific reasons he provides. I just wish he had left out the misleading references to tradition. I’m also curious to what his reaction would be if the Discovery channel publicized the lack of archeological evidence for the Exodus with the same fervor as the Jesus Tomb. Now there’s a story worthy of front page coverage.
Posted by: E Favorite | March 7, 2007 8:50 AM
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To Ashley:
Eric Meyers teaches early Judaism and biblical studies at Duke University and is among the world's leading archaeologists of ancient Israel, especially when it comes to the period of Greek and Roman occupation (the period in question). He is anything but a knee-jerk Christian guided by religious dogma, and nowhere in his post does he appeal to tradition against archaeology.
His post is elliptical and therefore not as clear as it could be. But I think that, as an archaeologist, he is weary of archaeological finds being used to sponsor outrageous claims, and probably winces everytime he hears about another Discovery Channel special. Therefore, I read him as simply giving the public advice that if someone appears on TV saying "spectacular new find contradicts [fill in the blank]," a healthy dose of skepticism is legitimate. He concludes his post by asking that scholars be given a chance to assess finds (i.e., before Hollywood makes world-shaking documentaries) and encouraging the public (which he interprets here as a largely religious audience) to be skeptical. There is no reason to make a U-turn from the traditional wisdom (not "tradition" with a capital T) of scholars and theologians (including contemporary archaeologists and historians who see no compelling basis for sensational claims in these ossuaries) until scholars fully assess the ossuaries.
Posted by: interested | March 7, 2007 12:11 AM
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Norrie Hoyt -- yes, heard that -- from my Catholic yoga instructor friend.
She's willing to accept it as "tradition."
Posted by: E favorite | March 6, 2007 10:52 PM
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E Favorite,
I'm sure you know that there is also a tradition, or at least stories, that Jesus made his way to India and lived there from some time. I think it's said that he got their overland, not by sea.
Regards.
Posted by: Norrie Hoyt | March 6, 2007 8:18 PM
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Country Squire --
Thank you very much - I'll check out that book - hadn't heard of it.
I’m in the Washington Area and am not clergy. I’m an experienced parishioner, though, self-educated in Christian history and intensely curious about clergy, ever since I learned that they do not pass on to parishioners what they learn about Christian history in div school.
Interesting that you should say this: “It was a hard row to hoe to find the laity so ignorant of critical biblical studies, theology, and history. It was my job as a priest to teach, but when you confront a stone wall, it is difficult.” I suspect the stone wall goes both ways – not the best way to put it perhaps, but I have seen, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that clergy resist/avoid/obfuscate/deny, you name it, when confronted with lay people who DO want to know. I share your view that “This game should not go on forever, and the sooner it breaks, the better everyone will be.” It would be nice if clergy could be pro-active about this.
Posted by: E favorite | March 6, 2007 4:53 PM
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To: "E Favorite:"
You are very perceptive, E Favorite. Your sleuthing ability warrants a response.
"What kind of job training is it that provides the truth and then discourages trainees to tell it?
The job training did not discourage trainees to tell the truth, the congregations that we went to did that by (1) threatening to "cut our pledge" if we said anything that rocked their boat, or (2) they would move to have you find another job where you might "be more comfortable" if you told them more than they learned in Sunday School.
On the other questions, I think you should read the following book carefully. The author clearly and succinctly answers these and related questions. The book is: "The Dishonest Church" by Jack Good, published by Rising Star Press in California. I believe it is available on amazon.com. He is a United Church of Christ minister with over forty years experience. It is very useful.
I had the privilege of going to the best divinity school in the Episcopal Church: the Episcopal Divinity School, Cambridge, Mass. It is related to Harvard, where I also studied. I have no complaint about my education, It was a hard row to hoe to find the laity so ignorant of critical biblical studies, theology, and history. It was my job as a priest to teach, but when you confront a stone wall, it is difficult. This game should not go on forever, and the sooner it breaks, the better everyone will be. I do not believe in the supernatural and I don't think I ever really did.
There is no Santa Claus, and there is no Easter Bunny, Mother Goose, Mickey Mouse, and most of the people described in the Hebrew and Christian scriptures. That's all.
P.S. What state do you live in? Are you a minister? priest? pastor?
Posted by: Country Squire | March 6, 2007 4:05 PM
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Franco - nice to see you here.
You still haven't gotten back to me about my original question (copied below) I'd really like a response. I know it's voluntary, so if you don't want to respond, I'd appreciate it if you'd say that. That seems like a simple and civil thing to do. Then I'll stop re-posting on other discussions. I don't want to be a nuisance.
Here it is again, this time from the "converstion thread":
...you said "There are literally thousands of scholars and archaeologists that will dispute all your claims." If Billy Graham had made a claim like that, I’d expect the same from him. So would all his followers, I think.
Maybe I’m confused -- are you saying God told you to say that? I don’t think God would want you to look foolish, even under a pseudonym on an online forum. Looks bad for all Christians.
Maybe you meant that God told you what the archaeologists and scholars said isn’t true? That’s a little different from what you said and would, in my opinion, take both you and God off the hook.
Please explain and please directly address your claim that 1000’s of scholars and archaeologists dispute claims of lack of OT archeological evidence.
Thanks
Posted March 5, 2007 2:50 PM
Posted by: E favorite | March 6, 2007 3:13 PM
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Hello Rev. Semes/Country Squire --
Below is the post I (aka anon.)was hoping you'd answer on the Spong thread. It occurs to me now that perhaps you didn't answer it because you didn't go back there again to even see it. Now that I've recognized you here by the style and content of your writing, I'm giving it another shot. Sorry if I misread your intentions. Hope you see this and respond this time:
Rev Semes – thanks for getting back to me. Much of what you say is what I’ve conjectured, (“To keep a job I felt I had to temper my beliefs on these issues…. Most clergy who want to be honest about the bible and traditional Christian teaching… don't talk much about [it]…or quit the ministry”) What kind of job training is it that provides the truth and then discourages trainees to tell it?
I see it as not only lacking honesty, but perpetuating myth and keeping people in the dark. I think it’s a huge deception – a huge can of worms, and I don’t blame clergy for wanting to rationalize it and deny and avoid it. How to “come clean” on something like this?? I think it’s a trap that good, decent clergy get stuck in and can’t get out of. I think a lot of them have learned to compartmentalize so much that’s it’s second nature. But this game of “don’t ask, don’t tell” can’t go on forever, can it, which so much readily available information, and growing doubts about belief in the supernatural?
You’re retired, right? So you can talk freely now? When you say you shared some of your views with people with the “most open minds” I wonder if they were people who had the courage and determination to confront you directly with information that trumped what they’d learned in Sunday school. That’s my guess. From what I’ve seen, clergy have a built-in double-speak, tilting to the comfortable faith-based explanation, without actually lying. Lay people, for their part, are unconsciously looking to clergy to assure them that indeed there still is a Santa Claus.
Posted by: E favorite | March 6, 2007 2:49 PM
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Hey Franco, maybe they couldn't produce the body of Christ because some of his followers bribed the Roman guards to let them have it, or maybe those roman guards were followers of christ themselves and took it, or followers in disguise as roman guards or maybe the guards were drugged and the corpse removed or a million other more practical and probable reasons why the corpse was gone, besides a ghost story.
Posted by: Lily | March 6, 2007 2:01 PM
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Bill,
Very good points! Also, if the Pharisees and Romans were trying to find Jesus's body wouldn't his family try to obscure the fact it had been moved somewhere else. In the Gospels, they write the body was gone, he has arisen. Alright, but could they have moved the body to a different location, ie: the Jesus tomb.
We do not know when all of these ossuraries were placed in that spot. Is there any way for us to know that?
I have read that Mary did die in Jerusalem. If so, did John bring her back and did he die in Jerusalem?
I truly believe in Jesus and I was thrilled to hear his tomb may have been discovered!
Norrie:
I agree - the IAA is very political and if the Jesus tomb has been discovered and it negatively affects Christian faith then Israel may lose their tourist dollars!
Posted by: Missy | March 6, 2007 1:24 PM
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To "Anonymous:" I don't know what posts you are referring to, plus I don't discuss my posts on another blog...that's all.
To "Franco:" regarding your claim that all the Pharisees (spelled correctly) and the Romans had to do was produce the body of Jesus, etc. If all these stories are fictions, then the Pharisees and Romans would not have been involved. Read Burton Mack, Robert Funk, and Gerd Ludemann on this issue. Sorry to burst your bubble, but supernatural events like resurrections just don't happen. Sorry.
Posted by: country squire | March 6, 2007 12:55 PM
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Many Christians, in their eagerness to defend the traditional doctrine of Jesus' physical resurrection from death, have repeatedly missed the Bible's own testimony about what resurrection is: I Corinthians 15:42-44: "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." If resurrection is in a spiritual body, then the absence or presence of a physical burial place is, so to speak, immaterial. Even if the burial place of Jesus were discovered and absolute proof were available that a set of bones were His, it would not change who He was, what He taught, and what He did. It would also not change the essence of His resurrection, which is a spiritual fact and a spiritual reality. Many Buddhists believe the Buddha's body miraculously disappeared. There are miraculous stories of Krishna, Moses, Muhammad, and Baha'u'llah. A portion of humanity recognizes and pays homage to each one or several of these beings. The spiritual purpose of each and all of them is the regeneration of humanity.
Whether or not we know their burial places or believe in miraculous transfigurations, the fundamental fact in the hearts of those who believe in each of them is: "He is alive."
Posted by: Bill | March 6, 2007 12:43 PM
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Hilarious OP. I haven't seen the documentary and can't comment on its veracity, but Mr. Meyers is a walking contradiction. He's automatically skeptical about these archaeological claims, and rightly so, but he accepts without question religious tradition. His entire article could be replaced with the children's rhyme "Jesus loves me yes I know, 'cause the Bible tells me so!" Good grief.
I particularly enjoyed how he hedged his bet in the last sentence with the threadbare "many paths to truth" cop-out. Even if someone somehow could prove with 100% certainty that the remains of Jesus were in that box, Christians like Mr. Meyers would still soldier on bravely, preaching their fantasies as ever.
Posted by: Ashley | March 6, 2007 12:03 PM
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To Norrie Hoyt --
Well, I'm glad THAT'S cleared up - it didn't seem like you to pop off with an unreferenced bombshell of a claim.
I learned on this forum that according to "tradition," St. Thomas introduced Christianiy to India. Further research indicates traditions that he did the same in Japan and Mexico.
When you have some spare time, please check out 1st century seafaring traditions to figure out how he did it.
Posted by: E FAVORITE | March 6, 2007 12:02 PM
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Hello Deanna –
I’m so glad you’re writing here. The overloaded “Who was Jesus” thread froze up my computer whenever I tried to open it. I especially appreciate what you’ve expressed here to Mr. Mark and all of us.
No surprise, I have a couple of questions. I’m trying to understand some of the core differences between believers and non-believers, unrelated to religious dogma, and think your carefully considered and deeply felt perceptions are helping to get closer to it.
You say, “I look at the same awesome universe with its mathematical and scientific precision and…see the hand of the divine." About this “divine” – it doesn’t sound like it’s necessarily associated with the Bible stories and dogma surrounding Jesus or the God of Abraham. It’s rather an ineffable force that you deeply feel and cannot deny? Please tell me about it – particularly about how it relates or not to standard Christian beliefs.
You go on to say [paraphrasing] that you think that religion was invented by humans and that you don’t necessarily believe in an afterlife. This, as you know, would separate you from many Christians, who rely on elements of the creed (e.g., virgin birth, resurrection, ascension, salvation with an eternity in Heaven) as the foundation for their beliefs.
Also, you say, “My faith, quite simply, IS. It is that spark inside me that connects me to the human race, the universe, and the divine.” This all seems like further evidence that your belief or “faith”is not tied to dogma but rather to a feeling within you that gives your life meaning. Is that right? Do you feel that atheism means denying that “spark?”
Deanna - I have more on my mind, but would like to have a deeper sense of your perspective before I go on.
Posted by: E Favorite | March 6, 2007 11:49 AM
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All that the Pharasees or the Romans had to do to quell the resurrection story was to produce the body of Jesus. There they could have ended the Christian movement for ever, but they could not produce the body. He is arisen!
Posted by: Franco | March 6, 2007 10:58 AM
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Interested,
You ask good questions.
I like to have a bit of fun with my good, Oh-so-positive-about-everything-doctrinal Christian friends. As with their response to the Da Vinci Code, these usually well-balanced citizens go absolutely nuts at the suggestion that Jesus and Mary Magdalene had an intimate relationship, particularly if it produced a child.
So I wrote stratghtforwardly with a straight face as if this were simply a universally accepted fact. It's like waving a red cape at a bull. These very serious Christians usually react just as the bull does. It's unkind of me but not too grave a sin, I hope.
Much more seriously, I understand that in Provence there is a centuries-old, if not millenial, tradition that Mary Magdalene arrived in southern France with her daughter, who is always identified as "Sara." I've read that Catholic churches there have statues memorializing Mary's and Sara's arrival on their shores. Sarah is always described as being dark-skinned. Obviously I have no knowledge of the facts of the matter.
I think that common sense tells us that the ossuary is not what some claim it to be. I think there's probable validity in the claims that: such a family ossuary doesn't fit with the customs of the times; that all the names on the ossuary are extremely common; that the sensationalism of the promoters of the authenticity of the ossuary makes their claims suspect; that there is a history of other recent sensationalized osssuary frauds.
Just the fact of finding Jesus's ossuary, when all sorts of contemporary forces would have known of it if it were genuine, many of which would have taken steps to destroy it, makes the claim improbable.
Add the fact that finding a genuine Jesus ossuary would be like finding a needle in a haystack. All of this tells me the claims are probably invalid. But, again of course, I don't know.
Best wishes.
Posted by: Norrie Hoyt | March 6, 2007 10:12 AM
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"Country Squire"
I know who you are and hope you are still going to respond to a couple of unanswered posts in another discussion
Posted by: Anonymous | March 6, 2007 5:06 AM
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If the New Testament gospels are really fiction, as many progressive biblical scholars claim today, then who cares whose ossuary was found in Jerusalem...it is totally irrelevant. Sorry guys, it's just the tombs of the proverbial Tom, Dick, and Harry plus Jane, Betty and Sue--just ordinary Jews who happened to be living in the first century C.E. That's all.
Posted by: Country Squire | March 6, 2007 12:43 AM
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To my friend, Mark:
Caveat: This really probably belongs in the "Jesus" thread, but that seems to have runs its course. Besides, I have to respond to your comment:
"Faith is what the theist depends on when the facts are inconvenient. Tradition is what theists fall back on when faith isn't enough."
I'm still reading, and I'm trying to keep an open mind, but we may just have to agree to disagree and respect each others' positions. Mark, my friend, I know you have come to your belief by a long, thoughtful, well-researched route. Believe it or not, I have too [not so much on the research, but I'm working on that too]. What I believe now bears only the slightest resemblance to the religious teachings of my childhood. And between the 15 or so years of my childhood belief and the five to seven years of my adult belief lies of gulf of nearly 40 years of [probably] agnosticism.
Strangely enough, the discoveries of science and the beauty of mathematics have played a significant role in my return to belief. The more we learn about the universe, from the cosmic to the subatomic scale, the more its precision and elegant interconnection and progression astound and awe me. Dawkins, Hawking, Einstein, et al look at the mathematical and scientific beauty and perfection of the universe and say, "Ahhhhh!" I look at the same awesome universe with its mathematical and scientific precision and ask, "You believe this is a fortuitous coincidence?! I see the hand of the divine." Atheists and theists are all looking at the same universe. It's the lens that's different. For a theist, that lens is faith.
Faith is neither a crutch in the face of inconvenient facts, nor is faith subordinate to tradition. Faith IS the defining difference between a theist and an atheist. Faith is NOT logical or rational. It's not a mind thing; it's a heart thing. It's also a right here, right now thing. I'm not living my life for an afterlife. I'm living my life as the gift it is, and trying to reach out to others in love, because I believe God loves me, Deanna, personally. If God exists, which I know you don't believe, he is supernatural and it's entirely possible for him to have a personal relationship with every person on the planet all the time at the same time.
Wars, sectarian violence, genocide, ethnic cleansing -- these are evil and just plain wrong. I think we can agree on that. Using "god" to justify human greed, hatred, and violence is also wrong -- and I KNOW we agree on that! I think you'll also agree with me that religion is the creation of men to explain what they don't understand. Surprised?! I can be and am just as critical of the religious establishment as you are, especially those who use it for personal gain or power. My faith does not depend upon them or their actions. They are human, as am I, and by definition, we are imperfect.
My faith, quite simply, IS. It is that spark inside me that connects me to the human race, the universe, and the divine. It energizes me, challenges me, frightens me, calms me, and -- in those rare moments when I have truly let go and followed where it led, I have been led into relationship with people who have enriched my life in ways I could not have imagined. My faith experience has been awesome -- and I mean that in every sense of the word: "wondrous, unbelievable, frightening, shocking ..." Believe it or not, I think my faith led me into a relationship with a very devout, well-read, intelligent atheist who is challenging me to examine my faith in ways that are new and different to me. Thank you, my friend. If I reach the end of the road and there's nothing there, the life I've lived and the grace I've experienced will be more than enough.
So, my dear friend Mark, I wonder, when science determines what happened in that ten to the minus 43 fraction of a second at the beginning of the Big Bang, will they also be able to explain source the "singularity" of the "infinitely dense, dimensionless point of pure energy" at the origin of the universe? [I'm quoting Francis Collins]
The existence of that singularity is a precondition for the existence of the universe, but its existence also defies the laws of science. So where does that leave us?
Posted by: Deanna | March 6, 2007 12:14 AM
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For Norrie Hoyt:
Are you being facetious about Jesus and Mary Magdalene having a child, a daughter? If not, what is the source for this?
Also, how does common sense lead one to believe that the ossuaries are not the family of Jesus?
Posted by: interested | March 5, 2007 11:46 PM
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It does not matter how strong the evidence is, Christians/Muslims will deny anything that contradicts the bible/qur’an.
It does not matter how flimsy the evidence is, Christians/Muslims will tout anything that supports the bible/qur’an.
This is the nature of faith.
Posted by: acrapist | March 5, 2007 10:43 PM
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Let's -- for a moment -- assume there really was a man named Jesus who lived in the 1st century CE and was crucified for "heresy" or "crimes against the state" (take your pick) sometime between 30 and 35 CE. It matters not for the purposes of this debate, nor does it matter who "started" the Jesus sect. One thing is certain -- the Roman occupiers and the Jewish hierarchy went to great lengths in the 1st and 2nd centuries CE to stamp out the Jesus sect -- torturing, imprisoning, exiling, and killing its proponents.
Given this, it hardly seems credible that the location of this tomb remained a secret for two hundred years, let alone two millenia. The coup de grace for the Jews and Romans would have been the production of Jesus' remains! Why didn't they? I don't claim to know, but, to me, James Cameron and Simcha Jacobovici's "discovery" reeks of sensationalism and sloppy scholarship. Could it be that they are far more interested in profit than either provenance or probability?
As for the tomb also containing the remains of Mary, the mother of Jesus, Joseph, Mary Magdalene, plus Jesus' child by Mary Magdalene and his brother. I'm sorry, but Jesus and his parents were poor, so how did they acquire a family tomb? Also, Joseph was presumed dead before Jesus died, and Mary allegedly left Jerusalem in the care of John the Evangelist, who spent most of the remaining years of his life in exile. So how did all their bones end up in the same tomb?!
It will be enlightening (and entertaining) to see how this discovery plays out.
Posted by: Deanna | March 5, 2007 10:15 PM
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Common sense tells us that this ossuary did not house the bones of Jesus and his family.
But, Mr. Meyers, modern scholarship holds that Jesus was not from Nazareth and that Nazareth was not a settled place during Jesus's lifetime. So there's no reason he would have been buried there.
I wouldn't believe anything the Israel Antiquities Authority says about the matter. The IAI operates from a political agenda and #1 on their list is DON'T UPSET THE CHRISTIANS!!
And yes, despite the howls from "outraged Christian leaders" it's certain that Jesus and Mary Magdalene had a child. Why do you mention a son when everyone knows the child was their daughter, Sara?
Finally, it's easier to believe that Jesus's bones were in the ossuary than that he rose from the dead.
Posted by: Norrie Hoyt | March 5, 2007 7:53 PM
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During the hour long critical response to the episode, the two men who worked on the movie, seemed unprepared and defensive in their responses to criticism.
This seemed to be the attitude of the entire production. Everything that was done seemed to be half done (DNA testing, statistics, and their use of Biblical and non-Biblical material). The most common word in the entire show was the word assume.
Now for a debate to happen, let alone a faith crisis for Christians, the evidence needs to be work out.
Posted by: Dan | March 5, 2007 6:58 PM
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I agree with much of what you say in your post. I take exeception to this:
"there are many paths to the truth. Archeology is only one of them, and when it challenges the traditional wisdom of generations of scholars and theologians, we have a right to be skeptical."
Tradition isn't worth much. When I hear theists spouting off that "tradition holds," it's a sure signal that the dogma they're spouting appears neither in history, archeology OR the Bible. Let's not forget that every religion has their traditions, including the pagan religions. Let's not forget the "traditions" that insisted that the world was flat and that the Earth was the center of the universe.
Faith is what the theist depends on when the facts are inconvenient. Tradition is what theists fall back on when faith isn't enough.
The famous Italian conductor Toscanini once opined that "tradition in music performance is nothing more than the last bad performace." That's a good thought to keep in mind when considering religious traditions as well.
Posted by: Mr Mark | March 5, 2007 5:29 PM
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The question is what happened after the crucifixion. Does anyone really know? The Apostles and other followers apparently ran for their lives.
Twenty to thirty plus years later Paul et al started writing about the sayings and ways of Jesus. To make him comparable and competitive to the Caesars, and other Roman, Greek, Egyptian, Persian and Babylonian gods, did they give Jesus some god-like qualities? Miracles and physical resurrection were apparently scribal ways to embellish the lives of gods.
There has been much conjecture about the true burial site for Jesus, from mass graves for the crucified, no burial but eaten by wild dogs/crows, buried in a shallow grave with lime to enhance decomposition and of course the burial in "Joe A's" tomb. (see especially Professor Crossan's various books on the NT)
What is interesting is that scripturally the number of attestations and their timing gives credence to burial in "Joe A's" tomb. (as per Professor Crossan et al) see http://www.faithfutures.org/JDB/jdb070.html
(1) 1Cor 15:4a
(2a) GPet 2:3-5a; 5:15b; 6:21-24
(2b) Mark 15:42-47 = Matt 27:57-61 = Luke 23:50-56
(2c) John 19:(31-37*)38-42
(2d) Acts 13:29
The resurrection accounts cannot be verified using the same techniques.
If you accept Heaven to be a spirit state (as per Aquinas), Jesus' bones are not in Heaven so maybe last night we did see the long lost burial vault of "Joe A".
Then again maybe it was "Joe A" in the tomb with his family members? Or maybe it was "Joe A" plus other members of the original disciples?
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | March 5, 2007 5:25 PM
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