so esther answers and proves the question

NO you cannot logically criticize israel without deflecting accusations of anti-semitism

doesnt answer the criticism- but its managed to silence people for a long time

but not me

Victoria

Part of the symptom of hate for the Jewish people is the denial of our history. So it is part of being Anti-Semitic. I am not engaging in name calling but relating the reality of your comments.

The Islamic Empire didn't conquer Eretz Yisrael until the 7th century CE. So the Arabic name is more recent than the name Yerushalayim. The term urshalim for your information is Aramaic for city of peace. Aramaic was the lingua franca of the Middle East from the time of Babylonian Empire until the Islamic Empire. So if the Arabs use urshalim, they are just translitering from Aramaic.

esther- no one said salaam is the name-

Hebrew יְרוּשָׁלַיִם (Yerushalayim)
(Standard) Yerushalayim or Yerushalaim
Arabic commonly القـُدْس (Al-Quds);
officially in Israel أورشليم القدس
(Urshalim-Al-Quds)
Name Meaning Hebrew: (see below),
Arabic: "The Holiness"

Jerusalem (Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם (help·info), Yerushaláyim or Yerushalaim; Arabic: القُدس (help·info), al-Quds, "the Holiness")[2]

anti-semite does not mean a denial of history- but an unreasonable hatred or dislike of jewish people a form of racism against people- not history denial

i can see youre confused and angry about something but i didnt do it so its not necessary for you to degenerate into name calling-

peace esther i was just trying to have a dialogue

bye

Victoria,

Peace in Arabic is salaam, not salem. In Aramaic it is shalem. Here is explanation for city's name, translated from a source that is approximately 2000 years old. A Midrashic interpretation comes from Genesis Rabba, which explains that Abraham came to "Shalem" after rescuing Lot. Upon arrival, he asked the king and high priest Melchizedek to bless him, and Melchizedek did so in the name of the Supreme God (indicating that he, like Abraham, was a monotheist). According to exegetes, God immortalizes this encounter between Melchizedek and Abraham by renaming the city in honor of them: the name "Yeru" (derived from "Yireh", the name Abraham gives to Mount Moriah after unbinding Isaac, and explained in Genesis as meaning that God will be revealed there) is placed in front of "Shalem". The plural ending implies the community of all believers in the One God who testify to the city's holiness.

Arab treatment of Jerusalem: In the 13th century Arab rulers razed the walls of Jerusalem, leaving it defenseless to Bedouin raiders. The city didn't have protection against until the Ottoman Empire

Your descriptions of your so called interactions with Jewish families contain so many cultural errors that it indicates that what you write is fantasy. For someone who is Jewish, this comes out as Anti-Semitic.

Someone who denies Jewish history is Anti-Semitic. Someone who wants Jews to be continue to be defenseless victims of violence is Anti-Semitic. Yes I am stating that you are Anti-Semitic.

(The term Anti-Semitic does not include Arabs, as victim, because during WWWII, the Nazis considered the Arabs as honorary Aryans, like the Japanese.)

esther- if your opening statement is to tell me im pretending something- you are basically accusing me of lying-

i cannot have a dialoge without a level of mutual respect-

what, are you kidding? youre going to tell me that where i lived for many years doesnt exist?

why do you keep pushing the lubavitchers?

youve written-
although you pretend to be.

So you are being a deceiving

If you truly live in New York City

i will not have a conversation on such a level.

thank you for your time- and esther- salem is indeed an arabic applelation

peace

You are not quoting from Judaism, although you pretend to be. You don't understand that the authority of the Satmars do not extend beyond their own sect. The concept that we cannot be active in reestablishing Israel solelyi a Satmar concept, created for their political reasons in the twentieth century. Ironically the Grand Satmar Rebbe used a portion of the Talmud which is devoted to wedding contracts to make his political viewpoint. The actuality is no one outside of the Satmar's cares about the pronouncements of their Grand Rebbe. So his legitimacy, as representing Judaism, in general is the same as the Sheikh I quoted for Islam. I know that the Sheikh represents a minority opinion for Islam. But you didn't catch the analogy because you want to magnify the influence of someone who doesn't represent mainstream Judaism.

Mixed orthodox reformed communities do not exist. The orthodox do not allow non Jews to prepare their food. Conservative Judaism doesn't believe it waiting for the Moshiach to recreate a Jewish state. So you are being a deceiving when write about your experience with the Jewish community. Anyone can say anything on the internet without providing actual proof.

By the way, Jerusalem is not Arabic, but the anglicized version of the word Yerushalayim.

If you truly live in New York City, you should visit a Chabad office and you will a find a different viewpoint the coming of Moshiach.

Rav Kook, a leader of the religious Zionists, believed that secular Zionists are unwittingly bringing the Messiah. All Jews, he believed, have within themselves a divine spark that motivates them to fulfill God's will even when they do not intend to do so. Secular Zionism is a manifestation of this divine spark. Through divine guidance, history is inexorably progressing toward the messianic age, and secular Zionism is an essential part of this process. Religious Jews, therefore, should support Zionism, while recognizing the religious significance that secular Zionists themselves do not see.

Also, if you want to understand the theology of the Gush Emunim, namely the Jewish group that propelled the settlement of the West Bank and who oppose any compromises because they believe that 1967 war signaled the being the return of Moshiach go to http://www.sas.upenn.edu/penncip/lustick/index.ht

Ester- i didnt quote anything from judaism- are you referring to posts in the past there?

as ive said esther- if youd like to dialoque fine-

youre giving me information any second grader knows-
as i said - there is no compunction in judaism to make a pilgrimage- someone,from their own decision, "making sure" they go to the wailing wall is not a pillar of the jewish faith-

ive been to seders- helped friends build their succoth shanties and even made the food- i spent several years actively studying judaism and lving in a mixed othrodox conservative reform community-
its actually my home- ilive in new york now-
i had the good fortune and pleasure to spend many enlightening hours in the company of the elders of the community whose fa vorite activity was to discuss and argue talmud in the synangogue- i was lucky they tolerated the presence of a white goy woman- but my sincere interest and enthusiasm (and the lack of any other young people who cared) made them forebear any prejudicies to let me keep company in their circle-

i gus my point hs been all along- which you seem to keep getting sidetracked on-
how is the formation and subsequent actions of the zionists (who were not religious but openly atheists) reconciled in the religious practice of judaism?

the jubilee itself soyuld have been an indication to the world that judaism was beig ignored!

anyway- i dont have any clue what you mean by colonist- i would say that every word ive expressed is against the colonialism of zionism-
and horrific treatment of the indigenous landholders-

also my opinion on the scholarship of the italian sheikh is apparently agreed over the world- he doesnt seem to even understand the 2 (only2) ayats he quoted- (which i expounded on earlier) and i couldnt find one supporter of his on the internet-but many many critics- i read several of his articles and they all come down to the same 2 easily commented upon and inapplicable ayats- simply put AGAIN- the one refers to the historical event of moses- which g-d himself had abrogated through the destruction of the temple of jeerusalem and the diaspora- not to be over ridden by the desires of man- but to wait until mossaich and the word from g-d to return- this isnt my idea!

this is your own religion!
theres not really any way to get around it!
religiously speaking- and what is the book of islam?
and how can this "sheikh" not know that at first muslims prayed towards jerusalem (even the word jerusalm is an arabic one) and then an ayat was revealed in the quran and muslims changed their prayer direction towards mecca-
well- this is all distracting from the original point- if youd like to discuss the issue at hand in a resoned discourse im up for that-

ok- peace- i actually have no interest in arguing about tiny points i was hoping for a solid dialogue on point.
peace

Victoria

Every shabbat and three times during the weekdays we read from the Torah. The prayer said when the Ark containing the Torah is opened, states Ki mi-Tsi-on tei-tsei To-rah; u-d'var A-do-nai mi-ru-sha-la-yim. In English: From Zion (another word for Jerusalem) goes the Torah and the word of G-d from Jerusalem.

We face towards Jerusalem when we pray.

When we end the Seder, which tells the redemption of Jews from Egypt, we say L'shana haba'a b'rushalem. Namely we are saying we hope that next year we will live in Jerusalem.

When the temple existed there were three pilgrimage holidays, Pessach, Shavuot and Succot, when Jews were required to go each of these holidays to Jerusalem, with part of their harvest to show thanks to G-d. So our ancient pilgrimage was three times each year. However, the Romans after the Bar Kochaba revolt (136 CE) prevented the continuation of these pilgrimages. When Jordan controlled East Jerusalem, it was illegal for Jews to make a pilgrimage.

Today, the religious make sure that they go to Jerusalem more than once in their lifetime and prayer at the Wailing Wall. They also conduct at the Wailing Wall, Bar Mitzvah ceremonies, which celebrates a child becoming an adult and being responsible for their own observances of our religious laws (the 613 mitzvot.) You can easily find such pictures on the internet.

Our religion, our holiday cycle follows the climatic cycle of Israel. We celebrate a New Year's Day for Trees (our Arbor Day) in Feb, which is mid-winter in Europe and North America, but is the beginning of Spring in Eretz Yisrael

The Israelis want piece and the Arabs want pieces - pieces of the bodies of dead Israelis

Victoria

Your "so called quotes" of Judaism are completely wrong! It solely represents the misguided opinion of a very tiny group, which has now been excommunicated from even the Haridi community.

So if you do not agree with Sheikh Palazzi and the Italian Muslim Association, don't preach to Jews from the opinions of the Nerturei Karta!

You never studied Judaism and you don't understand it. Your attitude is very colonist!

ESTHER- from an islamic viewpoint there are somany holes in the reasoning of this sheikh-

hes racist against arabs!

im not going to rebut it because its not even worth the time honestly -

first what is the point of saying colonialism of zionists is 'recent'? of course its recent! what relation does that have to islam?
this isnt an islamic issue- its anisue of human rights abuses- a secular one-
he uses it as an excuse to defame and critique arabs-

ETHER= possibly youre not aware of it - but this is singularly unislamic behavior-

1) yes moses did lead his people to israel- and?that has relevance how?

"And thereafter We said to the Children of Israel: Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, We will gather you together in a mingled crowd."(Koran, Sura 17:104, "The Night Journey")

2)the last warning has not been called!

and then he reminds (me anyway) us of the fact that muslims prayed towards jeruslaem before they prayed towards mecca-

and then says theres no importance in islam for jerusalem?

the quran makes no such statement that jeruslaem plays the same role for jews as mecca does for muslims-

do jewish people make pilgrimage en masse in the miilions every year because they are commanded to do so or they are not completing their religion?

i get the feeling that this mans emotional attachments and upbringing have clouded his objectivity-

i never saw a muslim attacking other muslims like that anywhere- its expressly against our religion esther-

now i dont eve know what the point of this was-

is your support of israel a relgious one?
or an secular one?

i looked at this link and its a jewish link-

why would a muslim do that?

anyway i appreciate that you tried to get what seemed to you a muslim perspective but attacking his co-religionists seems to diminish his credibility- and his scholarship was non-existent or even wrong-

i have a simple approach- its not time relgiously for jewish people to jump the gun o g-ds decree-

do you have some religious justification?
something clear the truth is simple-

im not trying to be insulting- just trying to get a clear idea of what youre trying to express-

ah- i just did a search on him-

apparently there are many who question vociferously his "scholarsip"

poosibly you can just speak from your own heart because that would be valuable i think-
ok- welll anyway- what is your particular view?
peace and peace esther

i am interested if you have a religious argument that would support israel as ive never heard one-
im open!

Victoria
Your so-called statement from Maimonides totally bowdlerizes his philosophy, his intimate attachment to Eretz Yisrael. In Hilchos Melachim 5:12 Maimonides wrote "whoever lives in the Land of Israel remains without sin." Namely Jews from all over the world should move to Eretz Yisrael. He chose to be buried in Tiberias. He, himself, didn't live there during his lifetime because this was the time of the Crusades.

Maimonides' family had to flee Spain because when the Almohades conquered Spain they actually banned Judaism. That is why his family ended up in Egypt. Most other Sefardi families moved north to the Christian areas of Spain. When Grenada was conquered by Isabel and Ferdinand not one Jewish family lived in Grenada.

By the way, Spain under the Almohades and Almoravides wasn't the only case of Islamic governments banning Judaism. This was the situation in Yemen during the 1200s, and Iran in 1600s.

If you want to use a cultish Jewish sect as your reference point for Judaism, I will reproduce an article by prominent leader of the Italian Muslim community who argues that it is anti-Islamic to oppose Jewish sovereignty in Eretz Yisrael.
-------------------
A Muslim Viewpoint of Jerusalem as the Eternal Capital of the Jews
By Abdul Hadi Palazzi*
www.aleph.org

Any discussion of the problem of sovereignty over Jerusalem necessarily means a kind of investigation that has political, cultural, psychological, and religious implications.

For a Jew or a Muslim, religious or secular, thinking of Jerusalem menas mingling reason and sentiment together.

As a Muslim scholar and a man of religion, I will focus on whether, from an Islamic point of view, there is some well-grounded theological reason that makes it impossible for Muslims to accept the idea of recognizing Jerusalem both as an Islamic holy place and as the capital of the State of Israel.

First, I would like to emphasize that the idea of considering Jewish immigration to Israel as a western"invasion" and Zionists as new "colonizers" is very recent and has no relation to the basic features of Islamic faith.

The idea that Islam might prevent Arabs from recognizing Jewish sovereignty over Palestine is quite recent and can by no means be found in Islamic classical sources. To see anti-Zionism as a direct consequence of Islam is a form of explicit misunderstanding which implies the transformation of Islam from a religion into a secularized ideology.

This was originally done by the late Mufti of Jerusalem, Amin al-Husseini, who was responsible for most of the Arab defeats. During World War Two, he collaborated with Hitler.

Later, Egyptian President Jamal el-Din Abd el-Nasser based his policies on Pan-Arabism, hate for the Jews, and affiance with the Soviet Union. These doctrines were the cause of Arab backwardness. Most of Nasser's mistakes were later corrected by the martyr Anwar Sadat.

After the defeat of Nasserism, the fundamentalist movements made anti-Zionism a chief element of their propaganda,trying to describe the so-called "fight for liberation of Palestine" as rooted in Islamic tradition and derived from religious principles.

This plan for the ideologization of Islam as an instrument of political struggle encounters a significant obstacle, since both Koran and Torah indicate quite clearly that the link between the Children of Israel and the Land of Canaan does not depend on any kind of colonization project � but directly on the will of G-d Almighty.

As we learn from Jewish and Islamic Scriptures, G-d, through His chosen servant, Moses, decided to free the off-spring of Jacob from slavery in Egypt and make them the inheritors of the Promised Land. Whoever claims that Jewish sovereignty over Palestine is something recent and dependent on political machinations is in fact denying the history of revelation and prophecy, as well as the clear teaching of the Holy Books.

The Koran cites the exact words with which Moses ordered the Israelites to conquer the Land:

"And [remember] when Moses said to his people: 0 my people, call in remembrance the favor of G-d unto you, when He produced prophets among you,made you kings, and gave to you what He had not given to any other among the people. 0 my people, enter the Holy Land which G-d has assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin." (Koran, Sura 5:22-23, "The Table").

Moreover--and fundamentalists always forget this point-- the Holy Koran quite openly refers to the reinstatement of the Jews in the land before the Last Judgment, where it says:

"And thereafter We said to the Children of Israel: Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, We will gather you together in a mingled crowd."(Koran, Sura 17:104, "The Night Journey")

The most common argument against Islamic acknowledgment of Israeli sovereignty over Jerusalem is that, since al-Quds is a holy place for Muslims, they cannot accept its being ruled by non-Muslims, because such acceptance would be a betrayal of Islam.

Before expressing our point of view on this issue,we must reflect upon the reason that Jerusalem and the al-Aqsa Mosque hold such a sacred position in Islam. The definition of Jerusalem as an Islamic holy place depends on al-Mi'raj, the ascension of the prophet Muhammad to heaven,which began from the Holy Rock.

While remembering this, we must admit there is no real link between al-Mi'raj and sovereign rights over Jerusalem, since when al-Mi'raj took place the city was not under Islamic, but rather, Byzantine administration. Moreover, the Koran expressly recognizes that Jerusalem plays the same role for Jews that Mecca has for Muslims.

We read: " . . . They would not follow thy direction of prayer (qibla), nor art thou to follow their direction of prayer; nor indeed will they follow each other's direction of prayer... "(Koran, Sura 2:145, "The Cow")

All Koranic commentators explain that "thy qibla" is obviously the Kaaba of Mecca, while "their qibla" refers to the Temple Area in Jerusalem.

As opposed to what "Islamic" fundamentalists continuously claim, the Book of Islam-- as we have just now seen-- recognizes Jerusalem as the Jewish direction of prayer. Some Muslim exegetes also quote the Book of Daniel as proof of this (Daniel 6:10).

After exhibiting the most relevant Koranic passages in this connection, one easily concludes that, as no one wishes to deny Muslims complete sovereignty over Mecca, from an Islamic point of view there is no sound theological reason to deny the Jews the same right over Jerusalem.

If we consider ourselves religious people, we must necessarily include justice among our qualities. This requires us to treat Jews,Christians, and Muslims equally. No community can demand for itself privileges that it is not ready to recognize to others.

We know that Roman Catholics consider Rome their capital, and the fact that the city has the largest mosque in Eu-rope and an ancient Jewish community does not alter its role as the center of Catholicism.

Even more can be said of Mecca: It is the main religious center for Muslims the world over and is completely under Islamic administration.

Respecting this principle of fair-mindedness, we necessarily conclude that the Israelis as a nation and the Jews as a religion must have their own political and ethnic capital, under their sole administration, even though it contains certain places regarded as sacred by the other two Abrahamic faiths.

To my mind, this is the only realistic ground for any discussion of the future of the Holy City. The other parties must understand that Jews will never agree to have fewer rights than the other religions, and Israelis will never agree to see David's City divided into two parts.

If everyone was happy to see the Berlin Wall destroyed, it was because the very idea of forced separation within a single city is offensive to human sensitivity. We cannot even think of creating another Berlin in the heart of the Middle East.

Of course, the idea of "two Jerusalems," if ever realized, will by no means be a solution, but a source of new troubles and conflicts.

Our general guideline must be the principle that the more we discover about our common roots, the more we can hope for a common future of peace and prosperity.

*The former Imam of Rome, Sheikh Palazzi is secretary general of the Italian Muslim Association and the Muslim co-chairman of the Root & Branch Islam-Israel Fellowship.
source: http://www.shalomctr.org/node/99

ESTHER- it really doesnt matter who is waiting for the messiah-
as stated elsewhere keep it simple-

theres not 2 interpertations of the exile and return- only one-
there is no disagreement among jewish scholars on this-
theres no internal arguments about the rightness or wrongness of the return-
those who support zionism dont engage in this discussion- those who oppose it- do-

you cant rewrite prophecy and scripture to suit justifying the return to israel-

you either as a relgious jew follow and acknowledge it-

or as a non-religious jew you discount its importance but trot religion out to deflect criticism fro the goyim while making herzls birthday the most important holiday of the year!

its an either/or from a religious standpoint
zionism or judaism

theres no balancing that equation- who even tries?

maimonides warned about ignoring the exile imposed by g-d over 1000 years ago (where he lived safely in a muslim country all his life)

simple

jay who are you talking to?

as long you appologize for arab terrorist and think of every possible reason for why they resort to terror - they will take your messages as implicit approval for behaving so inhumanely. they reason there is still no palestine is because of the palestinians. their leader only look out for themselves. the people foolishly think that attacking innocent israeli citizens is praiseworthy and even more foolishly, a step closer to their statehood. they are suffering because of them not because of israel. its their actions that bring about the retaliations and harmful conseqences form israel. what do they expect? that israel will allow its people to be slaughtered and not try to protect them? the sooner they realize that they need to genuinely accept peace in order to live in peace, the better off the middle east will be. its unfortunate but their future is truly in their hand. they can stop the terrorism today, accept israel and begin real peace talks - they will have a state in no time. its unfortunate though that the decision is up to them - their failure to choose correctly all these year will likely be unchanged.

Victoria

Those Jewish groups who are waiting for the Messiah to legitimize the establish of a Jewish state constitute less than 2% of the worldwide Jewish community today. Although they don't recognize the present Israeli state (not only because they are waiting for the Messiah but Israeli law is not strictly based upon Halacha) are praying three times a day for the advent of the Messiah. Therefore they are as committed as other Jews to the basic concept of Ezetz Yisrael as the homeland of Jews, plus the rebuilding the temple. (Please try to get an English translation of their siddur--prayer book--and read the Amidah prayer.)

If it happens that anyone of these groups believe that their Rebbe (religious head of the community) is the Messiah, they will become the most vociferous supporters of Israel. This is the situation already happened with the Chabad Hassidim. Until 1967, they didn't consider Israel as legitimate, but after the capture of East Jerusalem which they interpreted as as sign of the impending Messianic age, they became one of the backbones of the settler movement in Gaza and the West Bank. They still think that their dead Rebbe is the Messiah. These are the groups that talk rebuilding the temple on the Temple Mount. They also want to replace secular Israeli law, with the strict adherence to halacha, namely a Jewish theocracy.

The definition of an Atheist is one who doesn't believe in the existence of G-d. The leadership of the Zionist movement believed in G-d, just they weren't part of the Hassidic sects. The events of WWII--the holocaust--delegimitized the viewpoint of those who said that we only have to prayer 3 times daily, observe the Shabbat etc. for the Messiah to come and restore Israel as a state.

The history development of the theology of waiting for the Messiah, was a response to the failed Bar Kochba revolt in 130 CE against the Roman Empire. Since the Romans had to bring in troops from Great Britain to repress the revolt the Roman government afterward banned all Jews from living Jerusalem which they rebuilt as a Roman city, enslaved substantial percentage of the Jewish population and banned the practice of Judaism. The death penalty was applied for teaching of the Torah. The ban on Judaism lasted only for the time of Emperor Hadrian. As consequence of revolt's disaster for Judaism, the Rabbis (living in Galilee) decreed that Jews should prayer for the Messiah to expel the Romans and not take military action. These Rabbis also deemphasized the military and political aspect of the Hanukah, a revolt against Hellenistic Greek rule which reestablished Jewish sovereignty.

As a final note there has always remained a Jewish presence in Eretz Yisrael, despite all the repression exerted by foreign rulers against Judaism.

Victoria,

Again and again you find fault with everything but with the Koran and its militaristic and demeaning passages. Will your husband beat you if you find fault with these passages? If you lived in an Islamic country not only would you be beat, you could end up in jail. Doesn't this bother you?

the guest states-

For what it’s worth, I see the hysteria surrounding the “Israel issue” in American life – and the shameful silence about what actually happens in the territories Israel occupies – as one more symptom of the provincial ignorance and isolation of the U.S. in world affairs.

he cannot even bring himslef to call palestine by its name- it has beocme rendered invisible as an entity - territories israel occupies is palestine-

id say the US isnt hysterical enough- unless being goaded into a war with iran from israeli pressure constitutes hysteria-

where are the israeli troops in iraq?
afghanistan?

arent they our allies?

funny friends to have- theyll take all my money but im not allowed to visit them-

Victoria,

You might read a lot of web sites and commentary but you suffer from one major flaw, i.e. you refuse to renounce and condemn the militaristic and demeaning passages in the Koran. Until you do, you are a threat to world peace.

yes- they express that- it is what it is-

go look at the websites instead of talking and learn something liberated
i read all links provided even yours

Victoria,

The Torah like the Koran and the NT is filled with myths and guilt trips imposed by rabbis who keep themselves busy deciding what their god will do to their followers. I am sure the rabbis are thankful for your support.

Then it should be called what it is- the zionist movement (founded by atheists) opportunistically dovetailing their political aim of stealing land and using the guilt of the western world to steal it-

The torah is clear- the exile of the jewish people can only be rectified by g-d himself- not the decision of man- it is said that any who break the 3 oaths taken by the jewish people will bring untold suffering-

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

Discussions about the "territories" overlooks the
Balfour declaration which provided for a division of the Ottoman province of Palestine between Jews & Arabs. Churchill, one of the most aggressive English imperialists, split off 80% of the province and installed a puppet from the Arabian peninsula as king of what he named Trans-Jordan. Although the facts on the ground rule it out as a realistic possibility, the remaining 20% should be modern Israel, from the Jordan River to the sea. Even the sliver given to the Jews was only a grudging apology for the Holocaust by European anti-semites. The so-called Jordanians are Palestinians; they have 90% of the original province.

Tony Judt and Jimmy Carter are martyrs to justice in the middle east. They have been vilified by the Likud agents in America, aka the Israel Lobby. Christian evangelicals who support Israeli intransigence are also a force for evil; they never gave a fig about the Jews, they still don't; they only want converts and Armageddon.

Victoria,

I renounce and condemn all the militaristic and demeaning passages of any religious document or any other document.

I do not hate Muslims or Islam but I hate the militaristic and demeaning activity and the passages in the Koran that approve of said activity. Until you do the same, you are considered a threat to the safety of the global community

yes- but scripture is clear- stan read what the religious rabbis have to say about zionism-

when mossiach comes- youknow that- g-d will sanction the return-

it is not a process to be rushed simply for poliical expediency-

Oh if people only took the time to seek truth. When you seek Him with all your heart, mind and soul you shaall find Him. Jacob later named Israel had 12 sons. One of the sons was named Judah. He was the first Jew. Moses did not lead just the Jews out of Egypt he led Israel out of egypt...all of the descendants of of Israel (and some mixed multitude as well). Torah was given at Mt. Sinai to the Israelites approximately 1/12 of which were Judahites (Yehudites- Jews). Where are the other 11 sons descendant's? In America, Europe, Africa, Australia, parts of Asia, etc. Israel the nation was not named Judah for a divine reason. It is time to realize a simple truth. Jews only make up several million in population maybe 16 million...where are the other descendents of Israel? They were given the promise of muiltiplicity. To understand the present we must go back to His Story the bible. Secular History and biblical history show that Isareal was given the Holy land. PERIOD. The Edomites or Paletsinians were given Mount Seir, which is in present day Jordan. That is where they belong. And Jordan should be dealing with this problem, not the Israelites ( America, Europe and the Jews). Truth just sounds soooooo good to the ear. Yup Yup... If you have eyes to see and ears to hear....

Shalom

For more truth go to www.weareYisral.net

Baruch Ha Shem Yahweh!

Victoria wrote: "I think everyone has discussed anti-semitism ad nauseum- isnt it time to separate the politics of zionism (always as you noticed- obscurantly following any mention of zionism) from the overdone subject of anti-semitism-"

Since it has been stated that 'Zionism' is a political movement and the cry of 'anti-semitic' is used to gain political advantage could it be that they go together "like a horse and carriage"? It still seems strange why the term 'anti-semitic' itself has been used to apply to a subset of semitic people.

Another recurring theme is "that the situation is complicated", etc. ad nauseum. It should be 'K.I.S.S' - keep it simple stupid.

Either God wrote out a deed and gave away someone else's land or He didn't. Either a 'perfect God' who always does perfect things made a mistake and decided to correct it by creating a "chosen race" or He didn't.

If a group of nations, i.e., United Nations, was going to apply the concept of 'the right of eminent domain' internationallly there should have been just compensation and just enforcement by the organization implementing the 'eminent domain' action just as would be expected within a country.

It would almost seem like the two groups, the eminentee and eminentor had different concepts and goals in mind. If both groups had the same goals and those goals were the same as stated to the world, then it would seem that the groups that initiated the actions should see that they were justly implemented and justly maintained even 60 years later.

perhaps my following comments are simplistic but true in 1948, where were the palestinians when there could have been a peaceful resolution they called for exterminating the Jewish people now 60 years later they want land fot peace WHO ARE THEY KIDDING? IF YOU DO GIVE LAND FOR PEACE THEY WONT BE SATISFIED UNTIL ALL OF ISRAEL IS IN ARAB HANDS need i say hamas=hezbolah=iran=syria and on and on or perhaps Jewish lives for PIECE A piece of TELAVIV a piece HAIFA etc etc

the real rigorously religious jews also speak

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

you stated-
Of course. Many rigorously 'faithful' Jews believe that there can be no Jewish state until the Messiah comes. They don't criticize Israel - they merely refuse to recognize its right or reason to exist. Some of them live there.

some of them live there but dont recognize its right or reason to exist?
well- that would hardly qualify them as rigorously religious but instead shift them into the category of opportunistic hypocrites- defying their own religious teaching (that the jewish diaspora will end and bring jews back to the promised land when mossiach comes and goves the go ahead from god)

since that goahead asnt come from god yet- there isnt any religious justification whatsoever- and it is a great insult to the real religiously observant jews who do question those very things to lump them in together-

i would say that startig to even ask the question of whether "we" ( i assume that means jewish people who are zionists or zionist sympathizers) ask if "we" are msitaken, is the best possible start-

i applaud you for even making the suggestion-
maybe there is hope for dialogue.

I think everyone has discussed anti-semitism ad nauseum- isnt it time to separate the politics of zionism (always as you noticed- obscurantly following any mention of zionism) from the overdone subject of anti-semitism-

it really is time to discuss israel and AIPAC on their own- when cries of victimhood- the holocaust- and anti-semitism are removed from the conversation- a very different perception is emerging.

and isnt it time we actually started listening to those most affected and never mentioned- the palestinians?

http://www.palestineremembered.com/

peace