Guest Voices

Has Organized Religion Done More Harm or More Good?

Caryle Murphy
11:55 AM
Welcome to On Faith's first live online debate. Today we're pleased to have with us noted author Susan Jacoby, whose latest book is "Freethinkers: History of American Secularism," and R. Albert Mohler Jr., president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, flagship school of one of the largest religious denominations in this country. In a few mintues, they will begin debating the good and the bad of organized religion. Stay with us!

Caryle Murphy
12:02 PM
Hello Ms. Jacoby and President Mohler. Why don't you chime in first, President Mohler. We presume you believe that organized religion has done more good than harm.

R. Albert Mohler Jr.
12:04 PM
Well yes, and thank you for the invitation. I must say that I am no more qualified to speak of organized religion as a collective category than I could speak of organized education or organized politics. I can speak of Christianity and its contribution. Yes, I am confident that the Christian faith has done far more good than harm, to use your categories.

Caryle Murphy
12:04 PM
Ms. Jacoby?

Susan Jacoby
12:05 PM
And I think that talking about whether organized religion as a whole has done more good than harm is like being asked the same question about science. Which religions? When? There's the rub. I certainly can't say, for instance, that organized Christianity was doing more good than harm during the Inquisition. But there are other times and places.


R. Albert Mohler Jr.
12:07 PM
There can be no question that Christians have often failed to live up to the teachings of Christ and the spirit of the Gospel. There are dark chapters in Western civilization, and since this civilization was, at least until recently, clearly identified with Christianity, we must share in the consideration of what was good and what did harm.

Caryle Murphy
12:07 PM
Let's get specific on the good and the bad.

Susan Jacoby
12:08 PM
All right. Let's get specific. During the long period from the early 1700s, when Christian slaveholders began teaching slaves about Christianity, until after the Civil War, southern Christiaanity was a pillar of slavery. That was certainly doing harm.

R. Albert Mohler Jr.
12:10 PM
No doubt that southern Christians were not only complicit in the slave trade, but often ardent defenders as well. Beyond this, theories of racial superiority were rampant in the culture (look at Lincoln's letters) and too many Christians shared in that as well. Nevertheless, the abolitionist movement was overwhelmingly Christian and the Christian arguments are what won the day.


R. Albert Mohler Jr.
12:12 PM
The abolitionist movement in America was driven by Christian arguments about human rights, couched in the language of that day. This was even more the case in Britain, where William Wilberforce and John Newton used Gospel arguments to eradicate the slave trade.

Susan Jacoby
12:13 PM
With all due respect, Dr. Mohler, this is the sort of argument that defenders of religion always make You say that the abolitionist movement was "overwhelmingly Christian" and that Christian arguments are what won the day. The Christians in the north who were part of the abolitionist movemtn, like William Lloyd Garrison and Lucretia Mott, were virtually run out of town by the orthodox religious denominations. One of the greatest influences on Garrison, who was brought up a strict Baptist, was that freethinking heretic, Thomas Paine, who was an ardent opponent of slavery. You can't say that "Christian" arguments won the day when most Christians in the North as well as the South, until th eve of the Civil War, were absolutely opposed to the abolition of slavery. The Bible told them so.



R. Albert Mohler Jr.
12:13 PM
The modern concerns for human rights, the rights of women, and the protection of the vulnerable have been driven by Christian concerns and the belief that every single individual, male or female, is created in Gods image. This is a far more substantial basis for human rights than any secular theory.

Susan Jacoby
12:15 PM
Organized religion, all of it, was unalterably opposed to the movement for women's rights in the nineteenth century, and again in the twentieth century. Religion, all of it, has been dragged kicking and screaming by women of faith who wouldn't take no for an answer into the 21st century. The women's rights movement was always, essentially, a secularist movement. It could not be otherwise, because all religions have historically justified the subordination of women.

R. Albert Mohler Jr.
12:15 PM
There is no way that abolitionism in the North could have won the day unless the vast majority of Northerners ( who clearly considered themselved faithful Christians) believed that this was a cause demanded by the Gospel.

Susan Jacoby
12:15 PM
Andyou also think that religion was in favor of equal rights for women?

R. Albert Mohler Jr.
12:17 PM
Ah, just saw your question. There would be a debate about the nature of "equal rights" and what this might mean. I would assert without hesitation that Christianity, from its inception, has taught equal worth. Rights are a very modern concept,

Susan Jacoby
12:19 PM
Yes, rights are a modern concept. A secular concept that began with the Enlightenment. AndChristianity regarded "equal worth" as a worth that, in the words of Paul, admonished women to keep silent in the churches. Not what I call equal worth. And let us not only discuss Christianity in this regard. Historical Judaism also discriminated against women, and we know the asituation of women in most of the Islamic world today. Religion has supported equal rights for women only to the extent that it has been modified by secular knowledge.


R. Albert Mohler Jr.
12:20 PM
The fact is that secularism and secularists emerge as cultural forces long after the road toward greater appreciation for human dignity and human rights had been started in the West. There was no secularist movement when the notion of individual rights and protections emerged in Continential law and British common law. These foundations were explicitly Christian. Christianity pervaded the worldview and nothing else was imaginable.


R. Albert Mohler Jr.
12:21 PM
Well. we will just have to disagree about the Apostle Paul and his teachings. Just look at the way he praised women for their contributions to the church and its ministry. Many of the most positive and important references in Paul's letters are about the women who were crucial to the work and witness of the early church.


Caryle Murphy
12:22 PM
Before we close, in a few minutes, I'd like to know if you both think that organized religion has lost some of its power because of the huge trend toward 'spirituality' as opposed to 'religion' and because of the proliferation of different religions.

R. Albert Mohler Jr.
12:23 PM
The idea that equal worth means completely identical functions is foreign to the Christian worldview -- but it doesn't work among the secularists either.

R. Albert Mohler Jr.
12:26 PM
Caryle, the issue you raise is very important. The shift toward individual "spiritualities" and a spiritual "quest" is a sign that Christianity has lost influence in the larger culture -- no question about that. Of course, this is a great concern to me. As for the proliferation of other religions, I can only observe that the postmodern supermarket of faiths so evident in America doesn't even come close to the diversity found in the Roman empire at the birth of Christianity. We have been here before -- and the issue is Christian faithfulness in the midst of such diversity.

Susan Jacoby
12:26 PM
I wanted to ask Dr. Mohler if, as a Baptist, he thought Catholicism did more good than harm before the Reformation.


Susan Jacoby
12:29 PM
I just saw Caryle's question about spirituality. I think that in America, organized religion has lost ground to a flabby "spirituality" that makes no real demands on people. As a secularist, I see this amorphous spirituality as another sign of the dumbing down of popular culture. No demands, no history, nothing except what you personally feel at a given moment.

R. Albert Mohler Jr.
12:30 PM
Ms. Jacoby, I would not say that Catholicism did more harm than good before the Reformation. I would say that the Reformation was urgently needed and necessary. I am thankful that the Roman Catholic Church protected the orthodox teachings concerning Christ, the Trinity, and so many other doctrines -- as well as the preservation of the Scriptures. Of course, as an evangelical Christian I differ greatly with the teachings of Rome, but, I must also suggest, that the modern foundation for human rights is impossible to understand apart from Thomas Aquinas and his impact, among others. There -- how's that for an evangelical saying the unexpected?


Susan Jacoby
12:31 PM
We could have a lively chat about Aquinas, I'm sure.

R. Albert Mohler Jr.
12:32 PM
Now that would be fun, a secularist and an evangelical arguing over a Catholic theologian. Where else but "On Faith?"

Caryle Murphy
12:32 PM
I think we'll leave Aquinas to another day. And bring today's debate to a close. Last word from you both?

Susan Jacoby
12:33 PM
Religion has done a lot of harm and a lot of good. Like most human institutions. It would be doing much more harm today were it not reigned in by secular knowledge and in America--let's keep it that way--secular government.


R. Albert Mohler Jr.
12:34 PM
In terms of the impact of Christianity, my first and foremost concern is the impact upon the individual lives of those who have come to know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. But the fact is that these transformed lives have made an incalculable impact upon the world. The Christian church is not a perfect represenation of the Gospel -- we are still sinners, though saved by grace. Secularists and others do us a favor when they point out our inconsistencies. This chat is a good start on a profitable conversation.


Caryle Murphy
12:35 PM
Thank you, President Mohler and author Jacoby.


R. Albert Mohler Jr.
12:35 PM
Thank you for the invitation -- and thanks to Ms. Jacoby for the conversation.

By Susan Jacoby & R. Albert Mohler |  February 20, 2007; 12:49 PM ET Save & Share:  Send E-mail   Facebook   Twitter   Digg   Yahoo Buzz   Del.icio.us   StumbleUpon   Technorati  
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I think we forget the good that churches do for the poor and downtrodden. During the 16th century, they formed orphanages to care for orphanss. Nuns and priests have done much good in the care of the sick and needy. Organize religion like any other organization is prone to pride, abuse of power, and the human nature that will corrupt anything in its way. It is also the power of the organization to remedy it's abuses and excesses especially religious ones. It depends on the few righteous men and women to see that the purposes of true religion are maintained in that religion.

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For Muslims Big Bang Theory is not something new, it is more than 1400 years old, revealed in their Holy Book along with more than 1000 other scientific facts which are happened to be established recently in couple of centuries. And the answers of so many confusing questions which keep us going astray throughout our lives. And as a fact Muslims know they were revealed before discovered and further on top of it that not a single verse of their holy book is in conflict with any logical/scientific approach (infect every time scientific discoveries providing proof in favor of the last revelations), make them more focused/practicing/fundamentalist or what ever others think about them and made it very easy for them to reach to the conclusion...simply apply the scientific rule of Probability....What if it is 100% correct...IF YOU UNDERSTAND PORBABILITY RULE THEN ITS NOT A JOKE !!), very few examples out of All from the Holy book as proof,

I have created all the creatures from earth and all the living beings are made out of water (Chapter 21) (living being which are meant to die/perish)
Don’t you see the earth and sky was together and I separated them, still you don’t believe
(Chapter 21)
I have created sky upon earth for your protection and there is sign for you
(Chapter 21)
All the stars, moon and sun are floating in their skies
(Chapter 21)
All the skies are holding with out pillars and there is sign for you
(Chapter 21)

For Muslims God means (The One, Ultimate Creator, Who is Uncreated and above time always present before and after time and beyond our limited level of comprehension)

Below is the TOUCH STONE of God that He revealed in Holy Book, when the question about God was raised:
1- He is One and Only
2-the Eternal, Absolute;
, the eternally Besought of all! on Whom all depend.
3-He begets not, nor is He begotten.
4-And there is none comparable unto Him.
And none is like Him.

Please comments are not necessary WITHOUT VARIFICATION/RESEARCH of the original text and authentic translations by ONLY Muslim scholars to avoid any twisting and deceptive techniques IN GENERAL PRACTICE!!

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Answer to Amy!!!! Why doesn't Jesus HEAL.... ASK THE TRILATERAL COMMISION..... THE FREE MASON'S THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION..... PLEASE JUST LOOK IT ALL UP AND YOU WILL HAVE ALL YOUR QUESTIONS ANSWERED!!!!!!

KNOCK AND THE DOOR SHALL OPEN, SEEK AND YE SHALL FIND, READ THE BIBLE IT'S ALL IN THERE
B I B L E
basic instrustions before leaving earth

THINK ABOUT IT !!!!!!! PLEASE JUST TRUST IN JESUS!!!!

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I have a few questions for Christians:

Why doesn't God heal amputees?

Is Jeffrey Dahmer in Heaven (he embraced Christianity in prison)? Is Gandhi in Hell? If the answer to both is "yes" does that seem fair?

Christ didn't allow his followers to own property. How do Christians justify owning property?

Posted by: Amy | June 15, 2007 8:03 AM
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if god is all things that are and could be (the creator of all) then god can be defined as infinity. This definition takes away any dogma which will naturally be stirred up when a person hears the name "God" and attaches to the childhood experiences which define "God" to said person. So if we use infinity as a substitute and we realize that all religions, including science recognize that we can not define infinity, and that is the reciprocal of 0 (1/0 = infinity and 1/infinity = 0 both undefined) then we can also agree that all finite descriptions of infinity are non-descript because any finite amount/infinity = 0. so debate on the nature of infinity (God) is really only designed to potentially open up a persons mind and heart to "meme_life = creation and serve_life = serve_meme". That pattern recognition is called by christians "christ spirit" or having a relationship with christ. In islam (sufi mystics of that group) it is "oneness with all". In eastern religions it is enlightenment (at least that is the english word used to describe the idea). and on and on we find that we can talk in circles about faith in the infinite but never encapsulate it in a language, rules of grammer (no different than order of operations in math) or semantics. that is why I randomly use punctuation to evoke thought instead of fit. into rules.

break your box to find god for a moment only to realize that is a new box you need to break. Keep the faith and the work may the force be with all.

if you think this dumb - i agree with you, if you don't I agree with you too (it is what it is for the person who needs to have it be that)

Posted by: facts | May 24, 2007 11:27 AM
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Susan Jacoby
Free thinking is why all the things mankind has done to man, good or bad is done. If people would come to understand the truth of (Proverbs 3:5-6)” Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding. 6 In all your ways take notice of him, and he himself will make your paths straight.” Then all the problems in the world would be gone.
Organized Religion if you can call it that as 99% of religions or not organized, that is why if you look in any phonebook you find a hundred or more names of churches to go to. Mankind did exactly what Paul wrote they would do at (2 Timothy 4:3-4)” For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching, but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, whereas they will be turned aside to false stories.” See freethinkers.
They have done just like you have done, by quoting something from the Bible out of context to try to make your point, but if you took the time to learn all the principals in the Bible on we should treat each other you would find that God’s way is better even than what we have today.
John

Posted by: John | May 21, 2007 6:32 PM
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Posted by: s13866@hotmail.com | May 16, 2007 6:30 PM
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There seems to me to be a general confusion spread through the whole debate - a confusion of religion and faith with ORGANIZED religion, notwithstanding the occasional references to Catholics/Baptists etc.

To me it seems that Christianity and the concepts that are taught in the New Testament are much more complex and paradoxical than any organized Church could dare to admit, because the essence of organization of the religion necessarily means that largely the lowest common denominators of personal/flawed interpretations of Christian teaching in the New Testament are chosen to present a "unified" dogma so as not to confuse the adherents of any particular organized group of so-called "faithful" followers.

I would submit that any "organized" religion, whether Islamic, Christian or Judaic, even Hindu, has infinite potential - that has more often become reality than not - to harm, because it leads to SEPARATION and illusions of superiority (our faith is truer than yours) and presents the perfect seedbed for fanaticism.

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Mohler - Isn't he the guy who is finally admitting that perhaps gays are born that way, a position that has support from all the mainstream psych organizations, the AMA, ABA, and others.


Of course, he is also the guy who suggests that hormonal treatments for fetuses might prevent gay people. What else can I say, except thank you, Doctor Mengele.

And, btw, for the church that would make our gay citizens untouchables for not towing their line, isn't the So. Baptists the key church that in the past supported slavery, and then Jim Crow segregation for another hundred years- America's greatest crime? As a church of terror and fear, they still have to have a victim on which they can have their uneducated, brainwashed flock dump all their frustrations and fears, so they can feel better at someone elses expense, to keep the collection plate full.

Posted by: SteveMD2 | April 5, 2007 1:46 AM
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But as little as I like the institution of Roman Catholicism, it has on the whole done nearly as much good as harm. Enough at any rate that non Catholic Christians more than make up the difference.

One must remember that Catholics aren't the only organized religion.

Posted by: Garyd | March 27, 2007 1:06 PM
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Mr Crabtree's response is peculiar since the debate was not remotely related to tithing. But he's right that, under the New Covenant, tithing is not a requirement and should be not taught as such. See Acts 5: believers gave as much as they could to the people with whom they had fellowship, which contributions actually might have been greater than 10% of their income, which is the tithe.

But, regarding the debate itself, I think the Ms Jacoby's argument is boring—and worse, incorrect.

I think Mohler should have not taken the position he did. Organized religion certainly has done more harm than good, even from Mohler's perspective. Since the Catholic church has taught a false Gospel for a good while now, negating the Reformation doctrine of justification by faith, they have been instrumental in the nonbelief of many—a great spiritual harm that can't be offset by any supposed material/cultural boons it may have provided. And when you throw all the other religions in the mix as well, you've got yourself deep in the red.

So Ms Jacoby is correct, though she doesn't know why.

Posted by: Daniel Davis | March 19, 2007 10:27 PM
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Mr. Crabtree,

There you go lumping all southern baptist into one category. To compare a baptist preacher to judas is a little extreme. while i don't hold to the current tithing discussion what do you believe

Posted by: Tom | March 10, 2007 9:30 PM
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Albert Mohler please explain to me and all southern baptist why the southern baptist convention teach tithing when the new covenant teaches otherwise? You try to back up tithing with old covenant teachings and you know that is a untruth. The men of the cloth whom teach such, is as Judas the traitor of Jesus. What a shame.

Posted by: charles m crabtree | March 8, 2007 7:48 PM
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