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I think Jesus was right. I'm not interested in all the dogma that has come behind him. I believe in an essential unity of all religions. There are polarities in religion as there is in anything else. We constantly flucuate between those poles. Right now we are getting right up on the edge of one side. We should be backing off any time now. It's kind of like the stock market. Jesus said in the sermon on the mount that there will be many that say his name, but he will not know them when they get to heaven.

The first thing most hypocrites do is to say they believe in God.

Well put Tonio.

Government has for far too long been run with religious undertone. It doesn't necessarily have to stop, but it should be put in check. The government cannot show favoritism towards any one religion. The fact that Bush is making it so is against our founding fathers' wishes.

As I have said before, using god and religion is a crutch. The governament needs to stand on its own two legs and be responsible for the crap it does.

"Be alarmed if the president is saying that a particular political path is, in his view, ordained by God; be at peace if the president is saying that he is praying for God’s blessing and guidance in a complex world. The former is hubristic and dangerous; the latter humble and wise."

I agree with Meacham's point in that paragraph. The former is what all the fights about "church and state" are about.

However, I disagree with Meacham's point about the Franklinian concept of "public religion." It ends up becoming a de facto state religion, because it treats all religions as theistic and because it blurs the distinction between government and the public arena. Also, the concept is very prone to misuse by people with theocratic agendas. Further, it does a disservice to the various religions, because the "public religion" inevitably becomes a bland gruel of various religious teachings. I think religious freedom is best served when government has no role in religious questions at all. Whether there is a God is not the business of government.

Mr.. Meacham,

I enjoyed your artilce, and I think it was written well. There were many points in the article to discuss. I personally don't have any objections to politicians speaking about their religion, and or spirituality. I do become concerned when a politician believes that his/her religion is the so called right way. As you stated that is a big indicator for me that the individual has no humility. The word humility has taken a bad beating in our society. The opposite of humilty is egotism, or egomania. Which unfortunately many of our politicians suffer from in various amounts, usually in very large quanities. I think Bush is sincere in his religious beliefs. I am not saying that I agree with him because of his sincerity. What worries me most is how two religions with opposing belief systems can wreck havoc on the world when they clash. So how to tell the difference in a politican when their belief in a religion has gone beyound healthy to unhealthy. For me that can be difficult at times. Because as you stated I cannot see what he really believes in his heart.
I guess people have to make that choice on "faith". That the politician they support is doing the right thing for the problem at hand. Just like a belief in God, or no belief in God. Its all on faith. I really don't know if this war is right, and we lost our son to it like others have. I despise war, ever since I was introduced to it. But what does sicken me to the core are our politicians on both the right and the left who speak of God and then play politics with the soldiers lives as usual. That is not a sin, but a crime.

With all the fires in here, I don't know if I want to step in to this, for fear of being burned. I'll give it a try.

The ability to invoke God is anyone's for the taking. Invoking Him to further your own agenda serves no purpose, and I am sure it makes the guy upstairs kind of mad. I am sure, by now, that the country has realised its mistake in re-electing Bush, but why couldn't we recognize it sooner? The rest of the world already thinks we are morons for re-electing him. When I was overseas, I asked people, and yes, they agreed it was a stupid move. But we have to get past that. What bush decides to do, he's gonna do it, no matter what. He's already proven that(IRAQ). all we can do now is hope that he doesn't embarras us anymore than he already has.......too late, he just did it with his urge to send more troops.

Ok, anybody else want the Greek Gods to come back? I could really go for a lighting bolt from Zeus hitting Bush right about now.

Christianity is such a crock of sado-masochistic baloney that you really wonder if Christians should not be locked up in mental wards!

"I believe the Christian right is intent on establishing a fundamentalist Christian theocracy in this country. They are convinced in their absolutist beliefs and are a real danger to our open society. Unfortunately, moderates like Mr. Meachem are enablers of this antidemocratic movement. They think there is no way such a thing could happen in our country, and so they refuse to speak out."

Well said. And true.

I challenge any of the christian spokespeople posting here to prove the theory wrong.

http://www.eclj.org/europenews/06-1130-Pope_Christian_Divisions.html

http://mediamatters.org/items/200609210004

PollyAnna UnderGlass with the GlassHalfFull..

OH, LOOK, THERE'S A BIG OL' CRACK IN THAT LIBERTY GLASS!

Wake me when the next Enlightenment begins.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

What does it mean for an American to say s/he has faith in an Almighty God, and yet have a "defense" budget larger than the combined defense budgets of all other nations?

What is good (or, as some may put it, Christian) about using that military force to invade another country, and coercing its inhabitants to sign an accord that gives your corporations the "right" to take 70% of the market value of their oil & gas resources?

Don't kid yourselves; that is why the US invaded Iraq. Oil may be a fungible commodity; but these obscene profits to US/Brit corporations from Iraqi resources are the modern equivalent of colonialism - the evil perfected by all those many upstanding Christian nations.

Matthew-
A good Chritian name! And 2,000 years old. Have a couple of beers and read his book sometime.
Life is good.

Is this a joke?

Does the Washington Post require that its reporters, "bloggers" (in quotes because they don't seem to stick around to respond to criticism) and editorialists live in darkened caves with no access to any relevant information whatsoever?

Is Meacham unaware of the raging - and often violent - religious debate in dozens of states about evolution? How about gay marriage? Abortion?

How can someone who works for a major U.S. newspaper honestly state that American religion's "creed is liberty and the rule of law, not coercion or forced belief or a link between one’s civil and religious lives"?

What rock do you live under?

This may have been true hundreds of years ago, but since the rise of Christianist radicals in the post-McCarthy era, it's as far from the truth as Meacham's grasp on reality.

To whoever monitors these blogs for the Post (methinks there are no monitors or standards here) - there's more worthless tripe on the WaPo blogs than in all of Little Green Footballs. And that's saying somethin'.

Jive Davidson - Haven't you heard? The willingness to believe what you're told, despite all evidence, rather suits those who would manipulate us.

I will never understand why faith -- believing things for which there is no evidence -- is ever considered to be a good and noble thing. Faith is at best dangerous. In recent years we have seen very plainly what it is at its worst.

While we are on the subject of presidents, I think I will take this opportunity to endorse a book I read recently. It's _Founding Brothers_ by Joseph J. Ellis. It is about the first four presidents and a handful of other notables from the era. Their religious beliefs, or lack thereof, were not always as I had been taught. Neither were their politics. It's a fascinating book.

Abraham Lincoln declared that he had no idea of what God intended.

Geroge W. Bush pretends to know God's will.

If it is God's will to lie about weapons of mass destruction, and attempt to destroy all of those who would present the truth against those lies, then I have no desire to share a heaven with that God.

If there is a righteous God, then George W. Bush is the anti-Christ.

For those of you who wish to post the ten commandments in public, take a good hard look a the prohibition against bearing false witness.

I'm so sick and tired of people telling me God is a liar that I have begun to wonder if it does any good to pray for their souls.

Harvey Briggs

Mike- I believe that Noah had a hard time keeping the male and female stegasaurus fed, but somehow he managed. Insult me!

It is reassuring to hear an intelligent figure in public life talk of religious matters, because it adds an extra dimension to his or her discernment of complex political affairs. It is not reassuring, however, to hear George W. Bush talk about religion. In a debate with Presidential candidate Gore, when asked who his favorite political philosopher was, Bush answered: " Jesus Christ". I believe that Christ dismissed much of political philosophizing when he asked his followers to render to Caesar what was Caesar's, and to render to God what was God's. Bush didn't qualify his answer in any way, to suggest that he wasn't really that familiar with political thinkers. He simply invoked the name of Christ, who had rejected any attempt to make Him a political messiah, and who had declared that His kingdom was "not of this world".
Since the occasion of that debate, I have been wary of Pres. Bush's inability to make distinctions based on the realities of this harsh world, rather than on his intuitive, faith-based decision-making process. He was wrong about Vladimir Putin, he was wrong about the decision to invade Iraq, and it seems as if he is about to make another wildly irrational decision to invade Iran. Rather than praying as if everything depended upon God, and working as if everything depended upon us, Bush's way of perceiving makes mush of the distinction between faith and rational thinking, and this is a very dangerous practice for one of the most powerful people in the world.

I'm no victim. I'm not even a Christian. I am an agnostic myself, although I don't feel that everyone who does not share my viewpoint should be insulted for their own beliefs.

Thanks for proving my point. Why are so many liberals so hateful and bigoted?

John,

Unfortunately for Mike, we're going to hunt him down like the Christian dog he is and ask him to join our open society.

Mike - Buck up, boy! You sound like one of those liberal whiners. Not trying to play the victim game, I hope. Just remember, if worse comes to worst, you can always hide in one of our country's half million churches!

This is the most bigoted board on the Internet. Regardless of the article, the hateful responses of bigoted Christian haters is assured.

It is ironic that so much of the left have become such intolerant bigots.

Much as I might admire John Adams I'm gonna have to take issue withhim twice here.

First this: "“Man is constitutionally, essentially and unchangeably a religious animal. Neither philosophers nor politicians can ever govern him in any other way.”

Not this man. Sorry John.

and then this: "“I always considered the settlement of America with reverence and wonder, as the opening of a grand scene and design of providence, for the illumination of the ignorant and the emancipation of the slavish part of mankind.”

Considering the history of slavery and the near extermination of the original inhabitants of the continent (arrogantly referred to here as "the
ignorant") I'm not sure this quote is the best support for Meacham's reverence.

Regards

A Hermit

Look there was a reason our forefathers kept religion and the State separate! They knew man would be running the country, not GOD, so Man would lie, cheat, steel, invade countries, go to WAR and all the while quoting the Scriptures!
I say Washington and all State Governments alike can keep Religion out of Government and we will all be a lot better off, just the way it was intended. Grannysue

HK,

Henry Ford was also a raging anti-semite.

The previous post by anonymous was by me.

Are we heading towards a religious war?

Europe went through centuries of some of the most horrific religious warfare. Eventually, societies had enough. The French enlightenment and it's ideas were imported into England and then, through our founding fathers, formed the basis for our country. It seemed fortunate that we, as a country, never had to go through a religious war. Perhaps our society needs a taste, first-hand, of religious extremism, before we can continue.

I believe the Christian right is intent on establishing a fundamentalist Christian theocracy in this country. They are convinced in their absolutist beliefs and are a real danger to our open society. Unfortunately, moderates like Mr. Meachem are enablers of this antidemocratic movement. They think there is no way such a thing could happen in our country, and so they refuse to speak out.

Perhaps you think I'm paranoid. You should see some of the things written in other threads in On Faith website. For example, Mark Eaton wrote

"Freedom to love? Sure, but who will repair the lives affected by the ones who leave after loving? Have we not seen and heard of the lives shattered by one night of love (lust)? WE MUST GOVERN SEX AND SEXUAL ATTITUDES WITHIN OUR SOCIETY (my highlight). How can we control "bad and painful insofar as it is an instrument of power and domination" without LAWS that define what is power and domination?"

This is the road to totalitarianism. By this rationale one could justify any laws to save people from themselves, since, according to Mr. Eaton, we were born into sin, and need the saving. Mr. Eaton is just another run-of-the-mill fundamentalist who thinks he is spouting common sense and probably considers himself a libertarian. His idea of less government apparently doesn't extend to the sphere of our personal lives.

Even Mr. Meachem seems to have bought into this idea of fall from grace when he says "In truth, presidents, no more or no less than anyone else, are at work in a FALLEN WORLD,....... Excuse me, but I'm not fallen, I don't live in a fallen world, and I don't need saving.

For a more in-depth look at this trend, see American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America by Chris Hedges.

This Meacham character is an unbearable windbag! Can you imagine the torture of being stuck in an elevator with him.

Believer - Decent people are decent because they recognize the ugliness in selfishness, whether it manifest itself in lying, stealing or violence. They don't need some sort of "code". Those who espouse moral codes are the ones to watch out for.

"Are presidential evocations of God religious or political, sincere or cynical? It is difficult to say, for no one can know what is truly in another’s heart."

This question is not unique to statements of religious faith - it's equally applicable to politicians' claims to be for the "little guy," for social justice, or to be dedicated to brining a "new tone" to Washington. It's also applicable to the claims of marketers, activists, or pretty much anyone else who's asking for our time, money or support.

Setting cynicism aside for the moment (most Americans have a pretty good nose for cynical appeals), we need politicians who have a strong moral code. (What's most frightening is the prospect of a leader with no moral code at all.) For many, that code is shaped by their religious beliefs, be they Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, Shinto, etc. It is at least as important for us to understand what kind of moral code a candidate has, how strongly held it is, and how it was shaped as it is for us to understand what his or her economic views are, how strongly they are held, and what shaped them.

Most Americans understand the moral demands of the major religious groups in this country. Understanding whether a particular professed believe is sincere or not is more challenging - but no more challenging than discerning whether the politician who claims to be "on your side" is sincere or not.

For an atheist, the questions will be fundamentally similar. What exactly is your moral code? How does your atheism inform it - and how do I know that you are (and will) act out that code in your life?

Henry Ford had it nearly right-
ALL RELIGION IS BUNK.

Mr. Meachem:

You write, "...those who believe George W. Bush has taken religious rhetoric to a new level are wrong." It is not his rhetoric that is worrisome, it is his actions as a consequence of his "beliefs" that has forever damaged the foundations of our nation and the good will we as a nation painstakingly built over the centuries.

His actions on behalf of his own beliefs lowers the presidential office and our nation to that among many who espouse religious intolerance and hatred for our way of life...

Just as the Catholic Church never recovered from its own infidelities and corruption in the 15th and 16th centuries...so to will America and the office of the President forever be tainted (haunted) by the failures of a narrow-minded and intolerant individual who could not/would not see beyond his own belief system.

In perhaps the greatest of ironies, Bush rules much like an 18th century king, the ones who used religion as a way to consolidate their power at home and abroad...it is no wonder that many across the globe are now throwing the very same revolution we threw 2 1/2 centuries ago...

George Bush has certainly put the fear of God in me. I now pray often that the Lord will deliver us from Bush. I am so frustrated that there does not seem to be anything practical that I can do -- my vote did not do the job -- so I often implore heaven -- fervently. What I cannot fathom is why anyone equates what Bush does with anything remotely resembling Christianity.

Flounder, et al --

Go to http://blip.tv/file/151254 to see the Romney clip. The heckler who demeans Romney’s Mormon faith is roundly booed, then when Romney makes his statement "we need to have person of faith lead this country” – the crowd gives Romney a standing ovation.

America to Andy Ross: Huh?

Said Jon Meacham:

On this Presidents’ Day, it is worth pausing for a just a moment to consider the history of religious references and the presidency ... George Washington promised that the government would “give to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance,” ... as Franklin remarked, religion is an intrinsic human impulse ... John Adams took the point into the political realm: “Religion has and always will govern mankind,” ... when Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation because he had struck a bargain with his “Maker” ... or when TR said the true gospel lay in one’s works, not just one’s words, or when FDR prayed for victory over the forces of tyranny, or when LBJ summoned divine blessing for civil rights legislation, they were deploying religious imagery in noble causes. ... We are right to be reverent about our nation ... within the spirit of the democracy whose leaders we celebrate today.

(February 18, 2007 3:03 PM)

Reply to Jon Meacham:

Your roll call of the presidents makes the argument for you: for all practical purposes, the United States of America is a Christian nation. Religious passion in a substantially Christian form is the driving power behind the messianic zeal of leading Americans to fight the good fight for American virtues and values.

European nations have been there and done that. As you well know, the British Empire did it on a global scale. Spanish, French, Belgian and Dutch colonialists boldly went and helped out too. And German nationalists fought atheistic Communism in the name of the Christian west.

Now, in the climactic years of the global Pax Americana, before China and its satellites take over control of our economic destiny, it is worth pausing to reflect on the magnitude and ambition of the Christian project. The civilization that grew in the peaceful parts of Christendom has spawned the science and technology to unite the human species in a single network of planetwide economic and social relations. Within our deepening online civilization, the religion of the cross will doubtless have an honored place for many years to come.

But right now we face an Islamic backlash. Zealots for the other missionary monotheism are out to grab what they can before they go under in a desperate bid to oppose the new global online dominion. The next few U.S. presidents should perhaps address the danger that a secular heritage grown strong in the shade of Christian philosophy will be fatally weakened in the struggle to defeat Koranic fundamentalism.

Your organ Newsweek can play a noble role in all this. The priceless pearl in the Christian oyster is not the personality cult of Jesus of Nazareth or the metaphysical nonsense of the Holy Trinity but the orchestration of the efforts of hundreds of millions of people over many centuries to build a scientific tradition that transcends all previous religious strivings in its power and promise. Newsweek can evangelize for science.

Mr. Meacham, your writings show you have not yet found the real target of your faith. America, the land of the free, is also the land where Einstein is the new Moses and Sam Harris is the new John the Baptist. Grasp the baton! Run! Show us the strength of your sinews!

With compassionate greetings,
A European philosopher

For Gods and Country
The Army Chaplain Who Wanted to Switch to Wicca? Transfer Denied.

By Alan Cooperman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, February 19, 2007; Page C01

OK, Flounder – I’m angry, but not outraged. This kind of stuff is so common, I fear that many people “of faith” and no faith are inured to it.

Keep doing what you’re doing. Get the word out. Write a letter to the editor of your home paper. Also, call the paper and tell them they should write an article about it. Visit Romney’s website and tell him how you feel. Good idea for everyone here – Jon Meacham too.

Wondering about faith and politics?
Here is this from the Gallup Poll:

Q: If your party nominated a generally well-qualified person for president who happened to be, would you vote for that person?

...............Yes....No.....No Opinion
Catholic......95.....4.....1
Black..........94.....5.....1
Jewish........92.....7.....2
A woman.....88....11.....1
Hispanic......87....12.....1
Mormon.......72....24.....4
Married 3time.67....30.....3
72 years old...57....42.....1
A homosexual..55....43.....2
An atheist.......45....53.....3

link:
http://www.galluppoll.com/content/default.aspx?ci=4729&pg=1

Poor Jesus. His name and his teachings have been hijacked by greedy extremists for their own wealth and political demands. No less than Isam has been hijacked by violent extremists, Christianity has been hijacked by the likes of Roberson and Fallwell. Look at their words, for example, assasinate Chavez, AIDS is God's punishment for homosexuals, blow 'em all away and so on. Does this sound like Jesus to you?
Do you think George Bush can really call himself a Chirstian by his actions? What would Jesus really say oh mighty smug self-rightous evangelicals?

That GOD will damn George W Bush is a given. The only thing left to us to pray for is that GOD does it sooner rather than later.

The same goes for his unholy enablers, Cheny and Rumsfeld.

Well said Jon. I particularly like the part about humility being a more important virtue than courage. Many a tyrant and many a criminal have been courageous. by itself courage is not a virtue. by itself humility is.

I also want to thank you and Sally Quinn for starting this website. I just stumbled upon it a few days ago. We spend so much of our lives dealing with the insignificant and so little of our lives wondering about the big questions like what the hell am i doing here and what happens when i die.

Rappers, Singers, and Actors all thank God publically and loudly, whether they believe or practice Christianity. Politicians are not any different than actors, singers, and rappers; saying what they think others what to hear and not what they actually believe. That is real courage to speak out about what your actually beleive, whether others agree with you or not. People ask themselves what would jesus do? Perhaps they shpould ask themselevs what would they do? That question is much more courageous, I think.

Remember this:
As a group of people, the 42 who have been president of the United States are remarkably similar.
From a recent op-ed by Matthew Pinsker, Brian Pohanka Chair of Civil War History at Dickinson College:
*All were men.
*All but one (Buchanan) were married.
*All but one (Kennedy) were Protestant Christians.

Maybe this rich tradition of presidents appealing to the Almighty isn't a presidential tradition.
Perhaps, it's an American Protestant tradition of providing presidents.

R. Moore - If you want to be stunned by real hatred, check out the would-be successors to Falwell and Robertson, like "Reverand" Parsley.

Satan is a preacher.

Who does your religion hate?

Folks who wear religion on theis sleeves, have little room for sincere faith in their hearts.

Wow! It is just stunning the degree of hatred that permeates these postings. If you guys and gals have the answers to the "good life", imagine what the "bad life" must be like. Forgive me for forgetting the source of this quote, but some wise (correction from previous post!) soul once said in self deprecation, "I'm a snob about snobs. I look down on people who look down on people."

Wow! It is just stunning the degree of hatred that permeates these postings. If you guys and gals have the answers to the "good life", imagine what the "bad life" must be like. Forgive me for forgetting the source of this quote, but some wide soul once said in self deprecation, "I'm a snob about snobs. I look down on people who look down on people."

Mitt Pomney said this weekend that "we need to have person of faith lead this counry." What I am wondering is where the Bill Donohue of the atheists and agnostics is to get on the airwaves and denounce his intolerance? I mean suppose he said:
We need a person who is a Quaker to lead this country.
We need a Scientologist to lead this country.
He said the very same thing but parsed it slightly. Why is there no outrage?

Anonymous - No one knows or can ever know with any certainty who Jesus was or what he intended - too much undocumented machination appears to have gone on in the early church, if nothing else. The book of Thomas, for example, which obviously didn't make the biblical cut, has Jesus sounding more like the Buddha than anything else. And whether it's priests or politicians who come first in the power game is irrelevant. What does matter to me is the assurances of profoundly selfess people, from the various religious traditions, Meister Eckhardt for example in the case of Christianity, that life is not just sound and fury signifying nothing. It's significant, I think, that Buddhist monks, Sufis and medieval German "mystics" sound so much alike.

Thank you for mentioning humility. I sense we don't see the genuine article nearly enough.

The human ego craves to be worshipped, and it craves a sense of belonging, of kinship. This is the very foundation of "The Church". Any church. An excuse for an egomaniac to feel like he or she has it all figured out. And a support group to reinforce his or her ego.
What is so ironic is that ego, pride, vanity, hubris, meglomania, call it what you will, is THE ORIGINAL SIN. The very first sin, the worst sin, and the sin that causes all other sins is the very FOUNDATION of The Church!!
God gave us all a heart and a mind to figure out The Truth for ourselves. It isn't written in a book. And you certainly won't hear it from some loser in a robe on Sunday morning. You may "feel good" by pumping up your ego and self-importance while wallowing in PRIDE. But you won't be closer to the truth.
God gave you everything you need. But pride is what deceives you, and pride is the essence of The Church.

Jon Meechem:
" ...those who believe George W. Bush has taken religious rhetoric to a new level are wrong."

I'm not sure that the known utterances of Mr. Bush, matriculant of the most uncommon educational institutions, have ever remotely approached the level of rhetoric. His locutions are better understood as the vacuous & inarticulate babble of a feckless scion of wealth, a man exhibiting little observable intelligence, sagacity, or wisdom, and one demonstrably unqualified for any conceivable occupation. (My goodness, are we describing George Bush, or Dan Quayle?)

Unless we speaking of a negative elevation, the surname "Bush" and "new level" do not comfortably coexist in the same sentence.

I would caution self-anointed Men-of-Faith to enjoy the waning days of their ascendancy: the Great Decider has damaged the gloss of faith for generations to come.

We have a president who takes his marching orders from a god who speaks to him and answers his prayers. If he got those orders and answers from god speaking to him through his toaster would we still allow him to walk around with his finger on the button?

Traditionally, most Americans have believed in the separation of church and state. It is, after all, written in the first amendment of our constitution.

George Bush apparently found prayer to be useful in his attempt to stop drinking, if indeed he has (one wonders)! And he loves to look into other leaders' souls (Putin's). George Bush also called the bellicose Sharon "a man of peace." In fact many of W's pronouncements sound contrary to what is "godly." The rational observer must assume that GB is a polytheist. Many deities seem to control his actions, and none of them are wise or good. It was no doubt the demon Beelzebub who inspired Bush to substitute his gluttony for alcohol with a craving for war and control of oil.

Faith is believing what you don’t know, even what you hope you never will have to know. Once you would know, your faith would be gone, by sheer logic. Thus, faith is the fervent approval of ignorance.

What consequence does this have in politics? Your actions are valid only as long as they do not conform to reason – otherwise they would not and could not be based on faith. Faith “in the market place” is the apotheosis of ignorance and irresponsibility towards your fellow humans.

As long as faith remains a private affair – fine, but when it comes to actions like the Iraq war – desaster: Crime, genocide, all under the umbrella of “faith” as a legitimation of any conceivable atrocity. Bush can say: “I may have killed a million people, but I did it with Christian faith, so I am to be admired”. We had that through all of history, and the perpetrators are never brought to justice, cannot be brought to justice, became even saints: They acted on faith.

What do quotes from Adams and Jefferson prove? Nothing! They talked like everybody around them and during their time (except for a few enlightened people like Paine!) so that does not mean anything at all.

vtbashor,

I certainly believe that there are different sorts of Christians, and it is unfair that you must deal with the contempt that fundamentalists rightly deserve.

However, as an atheist, my problem with 'liberal' Christians is that you unintentionally give cover to your fundamentalist brethren by making silly, unreasonable beliefs seem acceptable. In fact, you help raise up the very concept of irrational belief, making it a virtue. It is belief itself that is the central problem with religions. The politics of particular groups are just side-effects.

VTBASHOR,
Until you understand the connections between Christianity and political power, and the historical con that has been perpetrated on you and countless others to solidify control, you will remain part of the problem, not distanced from it as you would like to believe. I realize that's a lot to ask, but you can't have it both ways.

James,
YOu talk about those in power "usurping" religion, but that sounds backward. Religion has always been a source of power, and controlling the minds of the masses always a purpose of Christianity. The key point is that Christ, for all the wonderful things he might have said, didn't found the religion in his name.

Meacham asks the question: "Which raises a practical question on this Presidents’ Day: Are presidential evocations of God religious or political, sincere or cynical?" My question is: why should political leaders at any time evoke the name of God? Religion has not been or will ever be that which unites us. Tragically, it has been a major source of division in our county. The principles that have held our nation together (e.g., freedom, opportunity, equality, individualism, etc.) operate outside of religious convictions. Our nation will be better served when our political leaders practice their beliefs in private and operate in the public arena based on the prinicples, as stated above, that unite us.

Setting: The Oval Office. November, 2004. Bush is at his desk. the phone rings:

Bush: Hello----This is The President.

God: George.

Bush: I SAID---this is the president!

God: I know George. This is God.

Bush: Hey God---How you doin? God-most people call me Mr. President.

God: I know George---I need to talk to you about something.

Bush: Shoot!

God: I beg your pardon.

Bush: sure, What?

God: George----you have doing a lot of talking lately saying that you were taking your orders from me.

Bush: Sure----it really gets me over a lot of hurdles. You got a problem with that?

God: George----I have never talked to you accept that time you were walking with Billy G. on the beach at Kennebunkport and found me. All I said then was----"Welcome Aboard." You seem to have taken a little latitude with that.

Busdh: A little what----?

God: You seem to have expanded on that chit chat quite a bit.

Bush: Look God----I know your are a little busy with a lot of other stuff---so I don't want to bother you all of the time. Besides-----I have Jerry Falwell on my speed dial. Besides----you know---I looked into your eyes and saw your soul.

God: You said that to Putin.

Bush: Well---yea---I do that a lot.

God: You can't do that George---its blasphemy.

Bush: It's what?

God: Its not right George.

God: George, if people believe you---you will go down in history as a false prophet.

Bush: History? Isn't that after you are dead?

God: Well----yes George

Look God---history is OK for the fancy pants eggheads---but we are talking 04 here. I can tell you some history. The Rangers batting average in 88! I DO KNOW some history. Besides, God, I am the leader of the free world---and to tell you the truth my numbers aren't too bad right now. No offense intended here---but I'm not sure your poll numbers are so great right now~

God: That could be George---they come and go.

Bush: You don't know your poll numbers??!!

Godd: George----I don't do what I have to do based on poll numbers.

Bush: Sure----sure---that's what I say too---but believe me Karl comes into my office every morning---you know Karl---Karl Rove?

God: NO George--- I don't really. I have heard of him thru other sources.

Bush: OK----well believe me I know the exact numbers every day and do something about it. How can you know what to do with the undecided with no polling?

God: Well ---yes George---I always have a lot of undecided---it comes with the territory. They do seem to fall my way a great deal----the closer they get to election day.

Bush: Huh?

God: Just works out that way George. Kind of the Fox Hole syndrome.

Bush: Huh? Anyway---- Look God---Let's cut to the chase. I don't have all day.

God: I do George.

Bush: anyway God---you run your stuff your way---and I'll run mine, my way. I KNOW what I am doing. Here's the bottom line----you are either with us-------or against us. It seems that you have a choice here. Don't misunderestimate me.

God: George---I am ALWAYS with you------on the other hand-----there are times I must do things that would seem to many---- to be against you. Can you understand that?

Bush: MY God-----God-----you sound like Kerry!!! FLIP FLOP------FLIP FLOP-----FLIP FLOP!!!!! On the other hand, God, I hope that I can count on you to part of the coalition of the willing?

God: I was going to ask you the same thing:

Bush Huh? Well-----anyway----just to hedge our bets here----I hope that we can keep this little talk to ourselves.

God: George----that's what this little talk was all about.

Bush: Huh?

God: Goodbye George. (Click)

Bush: DEMOCRAT!!! (click)

I believe....I truly believe...that the future will
regard religion as primitive mumbo jumbo perpetuated
by people who seek to benefit from it.
Its a great way to control people.

It seems the readership of your paper has spoken.

Christians are nothing more than uneducated, umwashed, poor little people without a proper understanding of the complex world of Washington and all things politic. After all its all about politics.

I will be greatly amused if this shameless outreach to christians by your paper lasts thru this calendar year. Your enlightened readership has spoken.

DOWN WITH CHRISTIANS. They have no rights in the public market place. That is reserved for politicans and the true scholars.

In hoc signo vinces!

I agree with Ego Nemo.
He makes a biblical point -- "But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees in secret will repay you." (Matthew 6:5-6)

Mr. Meacham,
You are right, America's tradition of political "public deism" is pretty and romantic. Vague evocations of the Almighty, of God, of "the Creator" seem warm and inviting. Warmth is spread on the listener and reflected upon the speaker.
All that is true, if one believes.
If there is a dark side to all this ecumenism it is that is promotes the persecution of nonbelievers. It secretly and wordlessly teaches that it is wrong and inconsistent as John Adams preached with the way things are supposed to be.
I suppose that in the United States today, atheism is the new homosexuality, or the new communism. To be an atheist is to be radioactive in American public life.
I'm a Christian, so I can only go by what I observe.
This is what I see: to express nonbelief in the public square (that is public policy debate, not just simply free speech) is to make oneself a leper in a nation of white-robed believers like our president and other notable God-referencing presidents.
There is a threat hidden in these centuries of religious niceties. That threat is against those who "deny the Christ."
It goes back before our founding. John Locke, who articulated man's rights and the right of the government to be unfettered by the Church had this limit to his toleration: "Lastly, those are not at all to be tolerated who deny the being of a God."
This is where presidential prayers come from.
In city council chambers across the nation it is an old bromide to say that "there is no Republican or Democratic way to fill a pothole."
The discussion of the public square is about practical things, the common defence, the general welfare, etc.
Perhaps it should be said more often there is no "Christian way to fund the Interstate Highway System."
God shouldn't be cleared from the public square -- you couldn't erase him from the hearts of the people gathered there.
But perhaps God has no place where he is used to condition uniformity of thinking. I can see no purpose in this public deism other than to promote the interest of the person doing the invoking.

Isn't it the most astonishing thing? All of this contention, all of this swirl of heated rhetoric and debate centers on a young man who lived 2000 years ago, went about the countryside preaching what the authorites of the day considered subversive and radical, wore robes and sandals and parted his long hair in the middle, talked of love and peace and giving flowers to your enemies, admonished all he met to love their neighbors as themselves and not take up the sword, insisted that God and Caesar be permitted separate tribute and honor, consorted with the wretched of the earth--harlots, tax collectors, thieves and adulterers, and was ultimately crucified between two criminals on the cross for his seditious activities.

Thing have not changed one whit in 2000 years. If that man came today to Jerry Falwell's doors looking just as he looked then, what sort of reception would he get? If he attempted to go to the White House to talk to George W. Bush, what would happen to him? If he preached today against taking up the sword, what would they do to him?

"Those who will have you believing absurdities will have you commiting atrocities" Voltaire

Why God would want to have anything to do with the human race after all the horrific things that have been done in his name is beyond comprehension. We should be praying every day for God to return and save us from religion and the fools like George W. Bush who use it to justify their criminal acts.

Remember the Arian controversy? Does anyone really believe that the Visigoths, after a day of battling the Romans, retired to their huts to argue theology. So it is today, those who seek power usurp religion to strengthen their followers belief in their righteosness and the enemy's iniquity. If I were a Christian I would be even more upset with the Republican party than I already am.

If President Bush had, during the past 10 years, done one thing that did not directly benefit his class of people and his friends, then perhaps I could allow myself to trust somethings he says or does henceforth

“Man is constitutionally, essentially and unchangeably a religious animal. Neither philosophers nor politicians can ever govern him in any other way.” -- John Adams

“There is in all men something like a natural principle which inclines them to devotion or the worship of some unseen power.” -- Benjamin Franklin

Whatever reverence we have for our Founding Fathers, on some things they were simply wrong.

We have come to a sad time in our spiritual and politcal lives ... when the zealots on both sides have pushed us into "either/or" choices and build walls of animosity to shut out the rest of the world. How depressing.

I am a Christian. I believe Jesus is the son of God and made the supreme sacrifice so I might have relationship with the Father. I pray daily to be guided by His example. I share my faith with others when I am asked but try very hard not to force it.

Unfortunately, the Christians who are in today's spotlight ... and who have seized control of the agenda ... do not speak for me! As much as James Dobson and the like might disagree, I can follow Jesus and still be opposed to the war in Iraq, commune with my lesbian neighbors and comfort my neice who made the very difficult personal decision to have an abortion. Jesus comforted the woman at the well and saved another who was about to be stoned. I choose to follow His example.

Yet I am equally frustrated by those in this post who automatically discount what I bring to the table because I am a Christian. Please do not dismiss me because others have perverted my faith and grabbed a spot on Hannity & Colmes.

The two books on my reading table today are "The Audacity of Hope" and "Who Really Cares?" I will read each with an open mind.

I wish both sides of the aisle would treat me with the same respect.

Simply put George W. Bush and his followers are more anti-Christ than Christian. The most basic facets of Christ's teachings seem completely foreign to the world of tax cuts and pre-emptive war. The shredding of the golden rule by the latter, and the outright money worshipping obsession with profits by this administration prove this.

Also, in denying the possiblity that one might support the troops, yet be opposed to war, Bush essentially denies belief in Jesus Christ as portrayed in the Bible.

What would Jesus do? Would he "blow them all away in the name of the Lord" as Jerry Falwell with a direct line to Bush said about the Iraqi's on national TV? Would he ignore the facts and lie to the American people to justify an unjust war? Would he take revenge on those that attempted to provide an honest analysis of reality? Would he talk tough, shoot first and ask questions later? Would he favor the have's at the expense of the have nots. Would surreptitiously favor corporate greed over the environment and the health and welfare of the people? Would he privately mock his religious followers? Would his deeds conflict with his words? Bush is not Jesus, nor is anyone else. He should, however, stop pretending to be morally right and people should stop believing he is. I believe God favors those who favor reason over primal human instincts. We have been fortunate to have been lead by some great thinkers. Bush was never a great thinker. God help us.

What would Jesus do? Would he "blow them all away in the name of the Lord" as Jerry Falwell with a direct line to Bush said about the Iraqi's on national TV? Would he ignore the facts and lie to the American people to justify an unjust war? Would he take revenge on those that attempted to provide an honest analysis of reality? Would he talk tough, shoot first and ask questions later? Would he favor the have's at the expense of the have nots. Would surreptitiously favor corporate greed over the environment and the health and welfare of the people? Would he privately mock his religious followers? Would his deeds conflict with his words? Bush is not Jesus, nor is anyone else. He should, however, stop pretending to be morally right and people should stop believing he is. I believe God favors those who favor reason over primal human instincts. We have been fortunate to have been lead by some great thinkers. Bush was never a great thinker. God help us.

ANYONE WHO ACCEPTS A MAGICAL LEGEND -- AS IN, THE OLD TESTAMENT'S BOOK OF GENESIS, OR THE FOUNDING OF MORMONISM -- on a par with known history does not have the critical thinking skills needed for the most powerful office in the world.

If you believe in a literal Adam and Eve eating fruit in a Garden of Eden 6,000 years ago, or in Joseph Smith talking to the Angel Moroni 180 years ago, you are a little dim and dull in the head.

A medieval mind in a modern world. A child's simplicity in an adult, nuanced universe.

You are likely, for all we know, not only to talk to God, but to hear him talk back. And God only knows what you would do then. Invade Iraq?

To quote a minister I have a great respect for, despite the fact that my leanings are more towards the Agnostic:

"God save us all from proud Christians."

"God, or at least an evocation of the Almighty, was there in the very beginning."

Absent any evidence of God's presence, or words from him, I would go with the "evocation" part of that lede.

In speech after speech President Bush has intentionally included phrases from the Bible that go over the heads of most Americans but act as a constant reassurance to a dangerous segment of the population - potential theocrats. This is something quite different from the presidential tradition of bland prayers for the blessings of God.

Deism is acceptable because it is at least possible that its sort of God really exists. Christianity is a sado-masochistic creed based on Old Testament resentments and New Testament paganizing superstitions. It is totally abominable and cannot be the foundation of morality or justice.

The article by the editor of Newsweek was concise and to the point. What bothers me the most is the fact that people throw the word “religion” around without knowing it’s meaning. In fact I would be willing to bet that most members of our government could not give you a definition of the word.
Then you speak of our “freedom”. Have you tried to get on a plane and fly to Cuba lately ? We can’t do that because they are communist but we sure can deal with and travel to the largest communist nation on earth, China. Where is the logic in this?
The truth is that if our government in all its wisdom had not put restrictions on travel to Cuba, Castro would have fallen long ago. It’s just because of the huge Latino lobby that these restrictions remain in place doing nothing but hurting the average person in Cuba. Do you think these restrictions hurt the people in power ? If so then you haven’t traveled much.
You also mention the word “philosopher”, a word in vogue today to brandy about like everyone knows what it means and who coined it.
These fundamental truths about the definition of words are one of the reasons we are in the situation we are in today. Bush can say he is a man of religion and has great faith but which speak louder his words or his actions ?
We stand on the threshold of world war three and if we don’t get our troops out of the mid-east soon it will commence. Iran is the tripwire and as our great leader pushes in everyway he can to demonize them so we can bomb their nuclear facilities both Russia and China silently prepare for this possibility.
I wrote a letter to Clinton in 96 and told him that the Muslims would unite, never once did I think we would be the glue that binds them together against us. A strike against Iran would be the shot heard round the world for the beginning of world war three.
The word "philosopher" was coined by Pathagoras in the sixth century B.C. meaning "one who is trying to find out". The definition of the word religion from the Latin root is "to connect".

Dear Mr. Meacham,

You begin your discussion of the Presidential relationship with religion with John Adams. Adams was a devout Calvinist from Massachussets. He opposed the first amendment because he could not imagine the people exercising liberty without the restraiining influence of an organized church. (His home state of Massachussets didn't disestablish the church until 1819, the last state do do so.) Adams and his Federalist Party, like others who invoke the Lord as their authority, claimed excessive executive powers to control what they feared was dangerous and alien ideas. They passed the the alien and sedition act in an attempt to limit the influence of foreign ideas; they branded Tom Paine, the great writer of the Revolution, an atheist destroying his and his supporters' reputation.
For their abuse of power, Adams and the Federalists were drummed from office, their base shrinking to the Calvinist Northeast. Adams was replaced in office by Thomas Jefferson who supported the idea that people should be allowed freedom of expression by proposing a state supported secular education in the classics - where young minds would not be exposed to religion till they well acquainted with other ideas and able to understand religion intelligently.
You also refer to Lincoln's cautious use of God as a basis for exercsing authority. Lincoln knew the danger of invoking God becuase the Pro-Slavery forces of the era were equally if not more effective than the abolitionists in making the case that the word of God (as understood in 1861) was on the side of the slaveholders. The nation's major religions had split into Northern and Southern dominations over the issue of slavery decades before the civil war. The South, like the North thought that they were marching to war under the banner of God.
The relationship between people, religion, and democracy is not a natural state; it is a relationhsip of power.
Mitchell Wood

Whenever I see a politician coming at me with a bible in his hand, my first reaction is to make sure my wallet is still in my handbag. My second reaction is to wonder how many people are going to have to die for his religion.

There is a very significant difference between using God and religion to define your words and excuse your actions....and actually incorporating God and responsibility into one's everyday decisions and deeds. Bush talks bout God often enough, but his life, past and present, hardly reflects a man aware of his responsibility to the rest of mankind... also created in the image and likeness of that same God. George Bush's blind belief in a God, in whose name all manner of horrors are being committed daily, is an excuse for his actions....after all, God speaks to him!

I believe God expects us to actually BE good stewards, not just invoke His name to get away with horrific crimes against humanity. If ignorance is bliss, Bush is blissful indeed.

Look at the sorry state of the world today and perhaps give some rational thought as to how God is working through our leaders, Republican or Democrat...although Republicans seem to feel they have the inside track on what God thinks and wants. I keep hopeing to see some evidence of divine guidance....because we desperately need some.

I have made my decision....I will not vote for any politician who says they read the Bible daily. The daily Bible readers seem to feel they are absolved of all misdeeds, crimes, accountability.

We need to remove the religious litmus test from politics! It is in no way indicitive of ones "goodness" or liklihood of governing in the best interests of mankind.

I hate to be so cynical, but it is hard for me to believe George Bush has a good foundation in the Christian faith, and I am not saying that is bad. I am not sure that a real Christian can do the things a President must do. The most devout Christian in my life time was Jimmy Carter and I believe his faith often conflicted him. I guess the point I am making here is that if you believe our leader should have some elements of Machiavelli’s Prince then how can they be a true Christian.

In my opinion President Bush believes in a heavenly Santa Claus. Where he decides what he wants to do and asked God to give him success. While I can not see in his heart, but I do know he left Dallas over a decade ago and his membership is still at Highland Park United Methodist Church. He seldom attends church. The Clintons joined a local Washington church while he was president and attended often. President Carter continued to teach his Sunday School class.

I believe in a God where we ask him for guidance apart from our will and ask him to guild us. This follows the example Christ gave us the night before he was put to death where he struggled with God about his fate. The Major Prophets of the Old Testament also did not do what they wanted to do but reluctantly did what God wanted.

A true faith based leader will do so humbly and will not be following some preset agenda of some self appointed Popes such as James Dobson or Jerry Falwell but of meditative prayer. Adoption of a political agenda causes me to question the faith of these self appointed Popes because politics is about power and the Christian faith is about giving up power. I also question the faith of political leaders who adopt those who have an agenda in the name of faith.

While people certainly get worked up over largely symbolic (which is not to say unimportant) religious acts, invcations, and references in American politics the real problem is, of course, the relatiosnhip between "religion" (by which we mean in these conversations Christianity) and public policy. Meacham seems to persistently jump over dilemas like abortion, gay marriage, and stem cell research in pursuit of some ideal ecumenical consensus.

The worst aspect of sincere religious faith is that it deludes the thinker into believing there's an alternative path to real knowledge other than the sound use of fact and logic we use in practical, everyday matters and in science.

Notwithstanding the demonstrable fact that in the entire intellectual history of mankind there's not a single verifiable instance of faith per se ever leading to real kowledge. Not one.

And once you think that strongly held beliefs unsupported by proof are sufficient grounds for action, or the belief creates the illusion of factual proof, you are capable of believing in the most monstrous of notions and of acting accordingly.

In this, George W. Bush may indeed be a genuine "man of faith." As we, the "thinking reeds" may all be - alas! - to varying degrees.

Viejita del oeste: Well said. Could not agree more.

As an escapee from a very fundamentalist Christian church, I can tell you one irony in all this: George Bush is a Methodist, am I correct? There's almost no fundamentalist who believes the average Methodist is saved. The Methodist Church is not a "Bible-believing" or "spirit-filled" church to use the lingo. And I guarantee you all the highly visible Christian Right folks in the political arena secretly doubt the state of President Bush's soul.

Bush is an evil man. His actions in Iraq are insignificant compared to his war against the United States. If you believe unleashing the NSA against the American people means listening in on international phone calls to bin Laden, Jeb's got some swampland in Florida's 13th District to sell you. His bible-thumping might fool the American people but it won't fool God.

Will this column still be around after "W" leaves office? I don't care about my President's faith, especally when he choses to ignore the basics such as, "Thall Shalt Not Kill".

Cowards come and go, but those that take refuge behind the Crucifix when we question their conduct are the worst cowards of all, for they serve niether God nor Man.

"We are obligated to be respectful of the rights of others to do as they please". For the simple love of justice, how about explaining how alcohol supremacy over marijuana doesn't trample on this principle in the most shameless way possible?
How many people does alcohol kill and maim? What about marijuana? So what the hell is going on here? Try alcohol supremacist bigotry on for size. Physician (marijuana prohibitionist) heal thyself (100,00+ dead a year in U.S. from YOUR drug).
Just to make you like me even more, I found the quote from John Adams to be horrifying in its overlooking of the spiritual meaning of what we were doing to Native Americans and black Americans.The way the "New World" was settled (invaded) makes all our achievements poisoned fruit of a poisoned tree.

I think Bush took political religiosity to a new level with his declared belief that God wanted him to be president. Or have other presidents had this so very humble public belief?

Ambrose Bierce's definition of 'prayer': "an appeal that the laws of the universe be anulled on behalf of a single petitioner, confessedly unworthy." Prayers are what we hear from Ted Haggard, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim and Tami Bakker, Pat Robertson, James Dobson, and others--rip-offs, liars, parasites, swindlers, opportunists, and monstrous hypocrites all.

George W. Bush believed there were WMD in Iraq. George W. Bush believes in God. George W. Bush believes God told him to invade Iraq. George W. Bush is at least consistent in having wrong beliefs. Is he humble in expressing his beliefs?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

It is those politicians who are most sincere in their religious views that worry me most. For instance, I've observed a frightening narrowness of mind among Christians of an evangelical or fundamentalist stripe. This personal experience is bound to inform my own reaction to a president whose says his favorite philosopher is Jesus, and who claims to answer to a higher father.

Here is a true story to illustrate the narrowness that may translate politically to a lack of vision:
A conservative Catholic and a fervent Evangelical were at a party, and got into a heated discussion about a point of theology. Their friend, a liberal Protestant, went to calm them down. --It's okay, guys, you're both right.--
They both looked at him angrily. --No,- snarled the Catholic. --We could both be wrong, but we can't both be right!--

If a leader is absolutely certain that his beliefs are right, will he naturally assume that all others are wrong? This is what worries me about George Bush, my fellow Catholic Rick Santorum, and others who show that kind of religious certainty. I would hope that they are as respectful of my views, and the views of others who don't think Jesus is magic, as I try to be of theirs.
After all, those Europeans, Americans and Afrikaaners who thought it was their God-given duty to civilize the non-Christians of the world, who believed non-whites and females were naturally inferior, were just as sincere and well-meaning as you and I.