http://moreaboutmen.com/artist/leona-lewis/s32845/

http://moreaboutmen.com/artist/leona-lewis/s32845/

http://moreaboutmen.com/artist/leona-lewis/s32845/

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I am a different Victoria to the other one but i am also a muslim.

i would like to point out that i have recently converted about eight months ago and have recently got married.

i am a fully practising muslim which includes covering up. before i used to cover up i used to get men coming up to me all the time. i was sexually abused by three different people, two were one off incidents and one was ongoing by my own stepfather. these ranged from when i was about eight until i became 16.

i got unwanted attention frokm males all the time and i hated every second of it. i am beautiful and i enjoy my beauty privately with people i trust like my husband and family.

i dont need a man to validate me and i never asked to be abused but this still happened because of the fact that men could see my body. now i am treated with much more respect and i dont have to be chatted up by men constantly.

i still have nightmares about being abused and i always wake up crying and this will never go away. and to this day it makes me sick when i see men staring at women who are clothed but naked.

a message to some women, cover up and respect your body for yourself and dont dress it up for others.

ello govna

Faith, specifically Islam, does not harm people- the gross misinterpretation of it over time does. It is being used as a means of control- to retain personal, professional, religous and political power- It has become so confused, so associated with patriarchical attitudes that it seems to legitimize abuse and violence against women, which true Islam does not endorse. those who would blindly condemn all followers of Islam (especially females) demonstrate as great a lack of knowledge and humanity as those who perpetrate those hidious acts of violence.

While reading several comments it seems that there are two different yet entertwined issues being discussed:

First, there is the issue of whether it is really a womans preferance to conceal herself, or one imposed by patriarchically dominated systems such as family, education, blind religous adherance and media.

Secondly, there is the issue of why it should be the woman who is responsible for controling mens lust. Is simply being the vessel of sexuality a crime to which the penalty is a lifetime of subservance? Or should men be responsible for controling their own sexual desires?

I suggest a compromise between the two- Since I find in difficult to believe that it is healthy for females to be held responsible for how men respond to them, perhaps men should consider MM- Male mutilation on their eyes to impede their vision, thus they would find it difficult to inadvertantly become aroused by a sexy womans face!

In the beginning Adam was made supernaturally. Eve was made from Adam's rib. Today we call supernatural Human reproduction High Tech reproduction. We make the fetus in a dish and put it in the female womb, so the sex act is not necessary, as it was not necessary when Adam and Eve were reproduced.
Then Adam and Eve made Cain and Abel by Body Birth, and they were Inbred and all people since are Inbred. Cain became a Killer with his defective Genetic code, and Man has been killing ever since, because we all have defective genetic codes.
None of us can follow Moral Codes.

Dear Victoria , Jai and perhaps even others ,

Is there not a fundamental problem of one clinging to a view? and the ensuing reaction of the other , not all so much to the view itself but in fact to how the one clings to the view - invariant , eternal and of course divinely inspired. The chain reaction is then engendered ending in catastrophic violence at least some of the time.

THE BUDDHA's ADDRESS to THE KALAAMAS - '' KALAAMA SUTHRA ''

''SO KALAAMAs , ACCEPT NOT UPON MERE TRADITION, NOR UPON SCRIPTURAL AUTHORITY, NOR UPON THE SEEMING ABILITY OF THE TEACHER, NOR UPON THE NOTION THAT THE VIEW IS COMMONLY HELD, NOR UPON THE NOTION OF 'IT HAS BEEN PONDERED OVER', NOR YET UPON THE APPEAL OF SPECIOUS LOGIC, KALAAMAS, IN THE DEEPEST CONTEMPLATION WITH A CULTIVATED MIND, THERE ARISES A RESOLUTION OF CONTRADICTION , A SENSATION OF BEING AT ONE WITH A NOTION - LET THAT ALONE BE YOUR GUIDE. UPON SUCH ACCEPTANCE ALONE SHOULD YOU ABIDE BY.''

Is not the belief in hard invarian entities, concepts, granite eternal truths, never changing morality a large part of the problem ?

Should we not accept the need to make and abide by reltive moral values which do minimise violence, hatred and repression of the healthy expression of all natural impulses from which we are in fact born but without the absurd illusion that they need to be eternally clinged to irrespective of all other change ?.

A missionary was once indulging in a harangue about the verity of his true god ; the Sri Lankan Buddhist monk replied ''So long as you are thrusting your faith at me , I would have to trust you with my doubt - for I have no certainties to offer you by way of explanations.''

Ranjith - A Boring Buddhist

In the beginning, God, the Man Gods or our High Tech Ancestors, Colonized Earth. They set up a Balanced Eco System, and added the fish, fowl, animals and Humans. Our HTA made Adam supernaturally, in a High Tech Science Womb, and made Eve from Adam's rib. This made them in the Image of God/HTA, with Equal Soul Helpmeets, not Mates. Each was the others 'other half'. They were not to reproduce by Body Birth. Fallen Humans are always seeking their 'other half' of 'soul mate' but this is not possible with Body reproduction.

When the Clones did have sex, they gave birth to Cain, and with his Mis-bred genetics became a Killer. All Mis-bred Genetic Life since, has been born in sin, and all have Mis-bred genetic Bodies to live in, and have beome Killers of the Creation of Spaceship Earth, and All Life on it.

God/HTA said Thou Shalt Not Kill. Jesus said Turn The Other Cheek. So why do we Kill? Because of Mis-bred Genetics, the Original Sin of Pure-bred Humans?

The punishment was the female had to be subjected to her husband and bear the child in pain. The male had to strive to supply the necessities for the female and child. And this has continued up to today. Now again, we know how to reproduce without the sex act.

We join the egg and sperm in a dish, and remove some genetic diseases, make a fetus and put it into the female womb. We also make some correction in the female womb, so we know Humans can reproduce by High Tech Science. But we still have female and child birth damage and death.

Now many feel we are in the Last Days before God/HTA and Jesus return. What have we done to the planet? Humans were to be the Caretakers of All Life. We have almost destroyed our Ozone layer with out pollution. We have all kinds of trash dumps on land and sea. We have oil spills and nuclear waste on land and in the ocean.

Man has killed for himself and for religion and government down through time. Christian USA has Killed in many wars. Now Christian USA has gone into Iraq with a pre-emptive war and may proceed into Iran. Is This What Jesus Would Do? Is it time to start following Jesus, instead of giving mouth worship in temples made by Human Hands.

Is it time to start housecleaning before our visitors from space, our HTA and Jesus arrive for the Judgement Day of our Caretaking of the planet they Colonized?

Life is for the Living, not the Dead.

United We Live - Divided We Die

Peace.

that is why presenting oneslef in a neutral non threatening manner (such as modest attire) shows both a respect to the men- as it can equalize the playing field- even if it inherent or cultural- it seems to exist- socially- a woman who is neutrally sexual may indeed provide men with a feeling of safety form the wiles of women- real or imagined- there is no playing on fears in the equation-

it is truly in ones demeanor- clothing is a superficial way to define our status and tribal affiliations and relgious in society-

if im confident in my intellect and ability to communicate ideas effectively- i want the ideas to stand alone- if an idea is accepted because one feels theyve been charmed into it- it wil have no sustaining value- and will disappear from the mind the next time another charmer dispels it-

if however it is strong and valid on its own- it is remembered and respected for its own value.
peace

Good post by Tannen. My question is about this sentence: "Men are everywhere challenged by their sexual attraction to women--an impulse that threatens their autonomy and gives women the potential to harm or even, Delilah-like, to destroy them." Is that challenge inherent or cultural? Is it natural for men to fear that impulse, or have men been taught that fear by society and culture? If it's the former, I am concerned that such an inherent fear would mean that peaceful relations between the genders may be biologically impossible.

Well, I guess the wedding ring is supposed to serve as a "No Treaspassing" sign. Doesn't seem to work very well. Some women seem to get turned on by the challenge. Something goes very wrong when corruption is used as a means to an end.

i appreciate the support norrie but couldnt help notice that you immediately told me how to sign off!

and ive already started signing salaams

jihads are personal struggles against our weaknesses and wouldnt be appropriate
the western concept of jihad sint ny personal conotation hence it wouldnt apply

ny own spiritual struggles dont warrant as a signoff

I think you have it wrong.

It's not about temptation to the evil sin of getting close to a woman (oy, unclean -- glad I'm not a woman tank yaweh.

It's about making sure that we men OWN our women -- wives, daughters, lovers, etc., in a controlled environment of complete personal comfort.

Too bad you and your grandmother figured it out (or you think you did). You ruined it for the rest of we lazy slobs who really care about the Torah and crap like dat.

Oy, I gotta headache from tinkin' two hard.

Shalom.

Victoria,

Nobody's trying to tell you what to say or do. Do or say whatever you want. Just be honest with us. Stop signing off with "peace." End your posts with "jihad." Thanks.

So much of history is about the oppressed's and their supporters fighting against dominance by others. Certainly, in the case of women, much of this must come from a corrupted version of protecting the child-bearer, but it often falls down the slippery slope to control and a sense of property rights, related to slavery. It's interesting to read arabnews.com (Saudi Arabian), where one can actually signs of progress, and stories of repression by our Muslim brethren on this earth re the place of women in their society. One even sees Muslim writers referring to the conservatives vs liberals within their nation. Religions of 'control', which certainly include Islam, Catholicism, and right wing Protestant and Jewish Orthodox, looked at objectively, to a great extent use 'God' as the excuse to maintain the status quo and continue living in the past. In one of the most amazing statements I have seen, an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi from Brooklyn NY referred to gay marriage in Israel (now recognized if performed elsewhere but not performed in Israel since the orthodox control the marriage process) as "a worse crime then the holocaust". As a Jew I am astonished, for along with people who were my distant cousins, when they were tossed into the madmen's gas chambers and ovens, they shared these spaces with gays, gypsies and others frowned upon by a society gone mad. To me this is one of the proofs that right wing religions require one to "check your brains at the door", that no matter what they say, they are primarily about power, money, and those totally blinded in the 'name of God' to a different society. This type of power over people is one of the scourges of mankind, and oppression of women is just one of the many branches of their tree of poison.

In other words, recognize it for what it is, take responsibility for controlling it, and then control it. "The devil made you do it?" Please! Give Lucifer his due and give him a break. That is all you and choice.

There are, of course, two sides to every coin. Unless there is an issue of rape, or other abuses of authority, a man responds to a womans signals of availability. Let us be adults here. Mary Magdalene. The Commandments should be kept firmly in mind when inapproriate arousal occurs. Do not look at it as temptation. It is a biological reaction. A drive to perpetuate your genome. If it is not appropriate, you must get out in front of it and suppress it. It is usually slow to build, but hard to stop once it gets going. Thought, word, and deed. Adults know what they are doing and it takes at least two to commit adultery. At least in a form that harms others.

It is obvious that the Judeo-Christian God is a woman because the first four Commandments are all about her.

Religion fundamentalism of all forms universally leads to mistreatment of women--and pretty much anybody else who is seen as "the other".

About slavery:

[9:60] Charities shall go to the poor, the needy, the workers who collect them, the new converts, to free the slaves, to those burdened by sudden expenses, in the cause of GOD, and to the traveling alien. Such is GOD's commandment. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.

[2:177] “Righteousness is not turning your faces towards the east or the west. Righteous are those who believe in GOD, the Last Day, the angels, the scripture, and the prophets; and they give the money, cheerfully, to the relatives, the orphans, the needy, the traveling alien, the beggars, and to free the slaves; and they observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat); and they keep their word whenever they make a promise; and they steadfastly persevere in the face of persecution, hardship, and war. These are the truthful; these are the righteous.”

[90:10-13] Did we not show him the two paths? He should choose the difficult path. Which one is the difficult path? The freeing of slaves.

http://www.submission.org/islam/slavery.html

Jai Khosla writes,

"Victoria, please show us one verse in the Koran that forbids slavery."

Let me ask you this, "Jai Khosla". Does the US Constitution forbid slavery?

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Alchaceera.com

----now i dont know why you hate islam---

Oh, My guess is it's all the ACTUAL, FACTUAL events, that many people have endlessly listed, that are utterly barbaric and stuck in the dark ages (and that are literally part of the cultural, legal and State practices of Islamic States) that Islam carries out and stands for that, in 2007 (who cares about 700 ad??!!) ARE UTTERLY UNIQUE IN THIER BACKWARDS PREJUDICE AND BARBARISM in the 21st century!

And those 'innocent' Muslims (your true colours are showing again, even though you have not spat out the word 'zionist' in this post, in your typical, badly hidden, Islamist fury) have actually been the source of much information that have stopped many a plot...including in the UK.

So if my family can walk down the streets of our country in a bit more safety (as much as we can have thanks to the cancer of Islam being allowed to grow in our society) because some fanatical Islamist has had a hard time of it...GOOD!

And as I have said before. You have yourselves to blame for ALL of the mistrust The West (feel free to leave any time) rightly has about the hardline social, political, religious doctrine known as Islam.

You can try to slag off The West all you like (while living in it, as always) but no one stones women, hangs gays or executes converts (at a State, legal, socially acceptable level no less) outside The White House or in The Vatican.
No teachers are hacked to bits for giving WOMEN LIKE YOU an education!

Fact.

oh jesus deborahdear i have never read so much bs in my whole life! jewish or muslim protestant or catholic its all hokus pokus its all a fraud run by homophobic moneygrabbing priest/rabies/clergyman and so on. get a life start thinking for yourself free yourself of all those fairytales. and remember just take a look at iraq and palestine/israel RELIGION IS THE PROBEM AND NOT THE ANSWER!

JAI- my attitude is exactly the same as it has ever been- now i could post things and you could post things(and have) but i dont do that- only very very short succinct easily understood posts that get right to the point and dont require a person to do alot of homework or thinking- i dont know why you hate islam- perhaps youve had some bad experiences personally- i recommend that you take a different perspective- i looked up this story because i didnt recognize your version of it- and realized ive read it 5 different times in different books-

jai here in america there are over 3000 muslim men who have been imprisoned for over 4 years under "secret evidence" without ever being charged- or having ever even seen a lawyer with no hope of getting out of prison because theyre technically not prisoners becasue theyre not charged-

that is in 2007 in supposedly the freest country in the world- the rendition program is picking men up and sending them to syria and well pakistan too- and torturing them for years- some have been tortured to death-

in india in 700 ad women were routinely burned in suttee and you know that a brahmin wouldnt even suffer an untouchables shadow to fall upon their clothing-

you are right and i was mistaken-i thought islam forbad slavery- but upon investigation and lots of reading- discovered that instead it put into place a system that would eventually eradicate slavery- to forbid it at that time would have been to destroy the economy and to create a class of prostitutes and well- slaves without een a meal a day to counton- there are many many proscriptions for treatment of slaves at that time-

for instance- if a slave went to a master and asked to be manumitted- if the master saw good in them (and i argue this to be a subjective definition that could be abused) they had to release the slave and provide them with means to start a new life- if a person slapped a slave they were to be freed- i lost count of all the times slaves were commanded to be freed-

i have noticed a phenomenon in wikipedia when there are islamic articles it says in the corner- the neutrality of this subject is contested-

in your qurayzah story there was such a statement-
then on eis referred to a jewish version and an islamic version- although the islamic version is very very short-

now i dont know why you hate islam- i have a feeling it is socially inculcated- and i dont know what is your particular form of devotion- but i would venture to guess that hatred is frowned upon- i am sorry for your experiences - this is nothing personal to you- but i have found some difficulty in communicating with asian muslims because there seems to be so very many cultural influences and superstitions and patriarchal and prejudicial ideas in it that i barely recognize it as islam.

i was telling my husband thismorning that i see in islam what itis to become- what its potential still being discovered is- and one of those things is living in the present and applying its tenets to today-

i hav not found a social systemwith a deeper understadning and allowance for true human psychology and nature and i have been looking for a long long time.

i really hope you understand that i was not attacking hinduism in any way- iwas just providing examples of the difference of mentalities then and now- i have to go now and i know youll probably notbe satisfied with my answer- but to espond with a flood of pastes that you probablywouldnt read anyway would be a waste of time.

also its lazy.
this requires a great deal more effort.
and again peace

Victoria

I live next door to a gorgeous blond and her family. Se has not been raped. i do not cast lustful gazes at her. She is intelligent and I have had intelligent converstaions with her. Perhaps you are overestimating your beauty and wear the hijab to convince yourself.

Victoria

Thanks for the change in attitude but that does not make some of the things you said.

You said Islam forbids slavery. It does not. Muhammad was a slave owner. he had slave concubines. He was also a child molestor and a murderer. he slaughtered 800 Jews in cold blood in one night, he and his soldiers that is.

he did not even spare young boys. These Jewish boys were considered men or adults because they had begun to sprout pubic hair.

You sound very intelligent and I cannot understand how you could have succumbed to this barbaric cult.

I never claim that Hinduism is perfect. But what sets us apart from Muslims isthat when we see flaws in our faith we correct it. Such as the laws against the caste system, etc. Hindu women now have equal property rights. Muslim women cannot even today make that claim. They get half the share that their male siblings get.

banu Qurayzah was the tribe that was slaugheterd by Muhammad. he sold all the widows and orphans into slavery. he then stole all their land and other property. he did the same to the Banu Nadir tribe of Jews. Eventually he drove all the Jews out of Arabia. had the Jews stayed intheir ancestral land they would have owned half of Saudi Arabia and perhaps we would not have had the terror problems we have today because of the oil money the Saudis use to promote terrorism. Muhammad perpetrated the first holocaust on the Jews. He was among the first Nazis. Hitler must have looked upon him with admiration.

Here is the hadith to prove Muhammad murdered even young children.

Book 38, Number 4390:

Sunan Abu-Dawood

Narrated Atiyyah al-Qurazi:

I was among the captives of Banu Qurayzah. They (the Companions) examined us, and those who had begun to grow hair (pubes) were killed, and those who had not were not killed. I was among those who had not grown hair.

JAI- its not about the looks- there are many different sectsodhinduism jai- iam sorry if i implied that your particular mode of worship forced women to walk behind their husbands- it has been a cultural tradition in india in the past- there is certainly great beauty and modesty in indian culture- i was commenting on how cultural traditions get mixed up with each other-

the face veil came from byzantium and spread to persia and beyond- it is not islamic and is a cultural phenomenon. there is no injunction in the quran to cover onesleves all over-as a matterof fact- the khummar is a piece of cloth that oe is instructed to drape across the bosom.

i wrote that i was a beautiful woman not to draw attention to physical attributes- but to describe the relief i experience when it is not an impediment to my freedom. i am a soft hearted person and dont like to reject people- i have always felt bad when i have to reject someones advances because i dont like to hurt people or make themfeel bad about themsleves.

for me- this is a protection in a way- and at least every week i mean every single week at least once someone asks meif im a nun-
i have that irish face you see- anditis unexpected to people because of their preconceptions- even if i go toa new mosque people are always curious and ask where im from.

also it is beyond submission to ALLAH- a public way of respecting my husband- he knows i will live up to my duty as a muslim woman to act in a modest and non-sexual demeanor- and ilove my husband and want im to be as secure and happy as i am.

JAI- i didntknow there were many hindus living in pakistan. i have had a very very dear friend for over 20 some years- he is a heart surgeon form pakistan and his father was in the parliament? was it? in the formative years in the 50s -but his mother was a muslim and against all odds married the token hindu in the pakistani government-
their house was burned down and they were run out of pakistan- he was a very spiritually conflicted individual- he stayed hindu but all his brothers and sister became muslim-
it is funny - he took me to his moms funeral and asked me to pray for her- i later went and prayed for her all the time because he asked me to-

i lived in pittsburgh growing up and we have the largest hindu temple in america there and a large population of indians who are hindus. i know there is so much antipathy betweenhindus and muslims-
i am sorry if i offended your beliefs.
peace and the god in me salutes the god within you

Jai Khosla:

I hate Islam and all the man made religions like it (though Islam is the worst at the moment) so i am no defender of it...but the Qu'ran does NOT say you have to be veiled.
It simply states you have to dress modestly and cover up arms/legs from sight.
NOT the face.
And the veil was never part of any Islamic life outside of Arabia until very recently.

THIS is the point...
That the veil is simply another example of militant Islam in it's political form that screams about the Qu'ran when it suits and ignores it when it does not.

Where Muslims (who can never agree on anything...which is why they spend so much time killing each other) who are victims use the veil purely because of modern male indoctrination (in the vile form of Islam we have in 2007) that has women think that their face is sinful, and where hardliners with an agenda wear it because they know they are happily spitting in the face of the Western values and culture they so hypocritically use when it suits them but disrespect when it does not.

There is woman in my naborhood who is a Muslim, is very plump and has bad protruding teeth. Orthodontics is not a common profession in Pakistan. Every Friady she dons the veil and goes to the mosque I presume. I see her get into the car with her husband. She looks better when covered. The burkha has its benefits. Victoria, does your hijab make you look better?

David Brock

Please read the Quran. It mandates that women be covered unless they are old hags no longer in possesion of their libido.

M. Rhinehart- I certainly never said i cover myslef fromhead o foot- i said i wear a hijab- a head scarf.

The veil is NOT endorsed in the Qu'ran.
It had no place in Asian Islam, it was an Arabic trait.

But since the success of 9/11, Spain, Bali and 7/7 in London more and more Muslims of all races are showing their true militant colours and wear the veil as an act of political defiance.

The fact is the veil is an insult!
There are Muslim women in Islamic states that are dying for the right NOT to wear the veil...and what do free Western Muslim women do? Wear the veil as a political act and the act of a victim.

It is an insult to all men in general as you say that "unless I am covered up completely I will be punced on by raping males".
Well, thanks very much!

Also it's an act od hysterical arrogance and vainity! "I'm just so gorgeous no mortal man is safe from ny beauty"!
Really!?

It's also an act of a victim. Only a male-indoctrinated, brainwashed woman would think in 2007 that she is being sinful if her face is on show!!!

And it's an act of gross attaention seeking! Far from having the 'neutral' effect fo not being judged on looks it makes people do nothing BUT look! The fact you are veiled draws attention to you!

It as no place in Islam (amazingly!) and is a political act, an arrogant act, an insulting act and/or the act of another woman victim of male dominated Islam.

Victoria please view this video and decide if you will continue to eat meat hala style.

mms://a805.v9135e.c9135.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/805/9135/0029/peta.download.akamai.com/9135/downloads/live_transport_med.wmv

Victoria

How can you follow a prophet who raped female children? Aisha, rayhana, Saffiya, Juwariyah and Maria. Aisha was only nine when he bedded her. Perhaps there were others. Some of his other child wives had divorced him. he divorced one child wife because she developed leprosy. Read the the first biography of Muhammad by Ibn Ishaq.

The veil pre-dates Islam. Women used the veil in Arabia to shield themselves when they went into the fields to relieve themselves.

Muhamamd first claimed that his Arabic god Allah had commanded the veil was the night that he married his daughter-in-law and first cousin Zainab bint Jash. He had fallen in love with her, his son Zaid divorced her so that Muhammad could bed her, and Allah came to Muhamamd's rescue and commanded him to marry Zainab when the Arabs began to indulge in malicious gossip.

The first revelation from the god Muhammad created was for men to talk to Muhammad's wives " from behind acurtain". In other words his wives had to veil themselves.

Later Muhammad, through the mouth of the Arabic god Allah, extended the veil as mandatory for all Muslim women.

M. RHINEHART- Well, my grandmothers mother died of scarlet fever in 1917 when she was 13- and she went to work to help support her family. She became the executive secretary for the vice president of Alcoa Corporation in the 20s (only 1 vp in those days) reaching the highest possible position for a woman at that time, she had 500 secretaries under her supervision and stayed with ALcoa for almost 50 years. She was also Miss Allegheny County in 1921 and was a little bit of a jazz baby. She put my uncle through Carnegie Tech (now CMU) and he went on to own one of the largest marketing firms in America today.
She only had 2 children.
My Grandfather was a union negotiator and my mother was a stay at homemom til about 1970- when she burned her bra and said she wasnt married to her house and never cooked or cleaned again in her life. She became the first female union steward in her union. I come from a long line of irrepressible expressive fighting irish women.
It sounds like your grandmother suffered a great deal under being told by others what she should or shouldnt do- moslty shouldnt. Such restrictions are bound to tie a soul up into tiny knots of frustration. One of my mothers major accomplishments in her life was that she single handledly fought and won to have the 3000 patients in the state mental institute where she worked as an aide for 20 years- released from the posey belts and jerry chairs- after every meal they were strapped into their chairs and belted down-
3000 socially deemed insane people tied down all day every day- she got their freedom for them- got the director fired- and the new director promptly fired her. Freedom has always been of paramount importance in our house. Restrictions were always only self imposed. Mom was an agnostic and i brought religion into the house around age 6 when i decided i wanted to go to the catholic church-
my spiritual life has always been my focus in my life- its just my nature. It always has been as long as i can remember- certainly it baffled my family, but in the spirit of our home- nobody was restricted from any pursuit- ive been fighting for the rights of homosexuals- people with aids- homeless people- veterans- abused women for so many years it is second nature to me.
I was a novitiate for the franciscans for a long time myself- service is my nature- but it is not natural to deny our own desires and instincts-
i have been extraordinarily lucky in that i have always had choices in my life- when i star to feel any bonds of restriction i balk like a wild horse-
so it is with subdued hystrical giggling that i respond to peoples continually inaccurate prejudices about me because of a piece of cloth-
its a piece of cloth! and it is my choice also.
I became muslim through my own seeking and prayer- not because i married into it- people keep trying to put sex INTO the subject- i still insist and rightly so because its mylife and my experience- that it takes sex OUT of the social equation-
people project their own feelings andmotives into things instead of respecting that others may have completely divergent intentions.

Im sorry your grandmothers lack of personal power drove her to try and tell others to feel the way she did. Theres is little i can relate to there except to have sympathy for her.

o by the way- convents and monasteries were actually designed as a way for the catholic church to keep its free slave labor force intact- and retain its wealth. You see, on the death of a priest his lands and property revert back to the church- since he cant marry even if he fathers children they are illegitimate and have no claims as heirs- so everything returns to the bosom of mother church. Nuns were forbidden to acquire property soit wasnt an issue with them.

I was very blessed to be raised by 2 free and empowered loving women who were able to fulfill their dreams and ambitions- and and i have their support and deep respect for all my choices- they trust me and love me and dont find anything enslaved about me at all- but they know me.
peace

A challenge to the Muslimah Victoria:

Victoria, please show us one verse in the Koran that forbids slavery.

Victoria is very naive or a liar.

Just last week I had a long conversation with an unveiled , very beautiful Muslim woman from Pakistan. She is married to a friend of mine who is a Hindu. Neither insisted that the other convert.

She was brought up to belive that the Koran is the unerrant word of the Arabic god Allah.

The conversation was long, heated but neither of us had the slightest desire to go to bed with the other, at least not on my part.

I was tryiong to convince her that some portions of the Koran are so bad that they are unworthy of God, if we accept that God is All Good, All Merciful and free of malice.

I quoted verbatim in Arabic sura 111 from the Koran in which the Arabic god Allah threatens to put Muhammad's uncle Abu Lahab in a fire and threatens to put a twisted rope around the neck of Abu Lahab's wife. The couple refused to buy into Muhammad's false claims of being a prophet and therefore Allah's anger at them.

Here is sura 111 which sheds some light o the fact that Muslims are always angry and for them it is always someone else's fault.

111.001
Perdition overtake both hands of Abu Lahab, and he will perish.

111.002
His wealth and what he earns will not avail him.

111.003
Burnt soon will he be in a Fire of Blazing Flame!

111.004
His wife shall carry the crackling wood - As fuel!-

111.005
Upon her neck a halter of strongly twisted rope.

As a normal horny heterosexual man, I find that when on the beach among bikini clad women, after a while I am bored.

When I am in the midst of veiled muelsim women I endlessy wonder:

" What delights must lie under that tent!!!"

The veil promotes exusl desire. That is why rape is more common in Muslim countries.

Unfortunately a Muslim woman who makes an accusation of rape must bring forth four witnesses else she is the one who will be punished. So unless she is raped in public and four male witness come forwad to testify on her behalf, she might as as well smile and enjoy the rape.

The Koran permits Muslims to have sex with their female captives and slaves (i.e. those "whom their right hands possess"). As the Muslim armies raided town after town, they captured many women, who would often be sold or traded. Yet, since the Muslim men were a long way from their wives, they needed wisdom from God to guide them in their treatment of their female captives:

The Believers must (Eventually) win through—Those who humble themselves In their prayers; Who avoid vain talk; Who are active in deeds Of charity; Who abstain from sex, Except with those joined To them in the marriage bond, Or (the captives) whom Their right hands possess—For (in their case) they are Free from blame.

Not so those devoted To Prayer—Those who remain steadfast To their prayer; And those in whose wealth Is a recognized right For the (needy) who asks And him who is prevented (For some reason from asking); And those who hold To the truth of the Day Of Judgement; And those who fear The displeasure of their Lord—For their Lord’s displeasure Is the opposite of Peace And Tranquility—And those who guard Their chastity, Except with their wives And the (captives) whom Their right hands possess—For (then) they are not To be blamed.

The Muslim practice of having sex with captured women is reported often in the Hadith, where we find Muslims perplexed about what to do with their captives. It wasn’t long before Allah sent a revelation allowing the confused soldiers to sleep with the women:

Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) sent an army to Autas and encountered the enemy and fought with them. Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) seemed to refrain from having intercourse with captive women because of their husbands being polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that: "And women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (4:24)" (i.e. they were lawful for them when their Idda period came to an end).

According to one hadith: We went out with Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi’l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing azl (withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah’s Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born.

Anotehr hadith :We went out with Allah’s Apostle (The blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) for the invasion of Bun Al-Mustaliq and we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy became hard on us and we loved to do coitus interruptus [same as "azl" above]. So when we intended to do coitus interruptus, we said: "How can we do coitus interruptus before asking Allah’s Apostle (The blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) who is present among us? We asked (him) about it and he said: "It is better for you not to do so, for if any soul till the Day of Resurrection is predestined to exist, it will exist."

Another hadith: Jabir bin Abdullah (Allah be pleased with them) reported that a person asked Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) saying: I have a slave-girl and I practice azl with her, whereupon Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: This cannot prevent that which Allah has decreed. The person then came (after some time) and said: Messenger of Allah, the slave-girl about whom I talked to you has conceived, whereupon Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: I am the servant of Allah and His Messenger.

The Muslims had originally refrained from having sex with their captives because they were the wives of polytheists; nevertheless, their arabic god Allah sent a message saying that they were free to have sex with the women. Modern Muslims believe that this sexual intercourse would only have occurred after marriage, but this view is clearly false. Muhammad’s followers said that they wanted to have sex with the women but that they still wanted to sell them. They asked Muhammad about performing coitus interruptus, but Muhammad answered that it doesn’t really matter. All children who are destined to be born will be born, so it doesn’t matter if a man practices coitus interruptus or not.

Thus, the Koran permits men to have sex with their female captives even those whose husbands were sometimes still alive, and the Hadiths provides examples of when this was practiced. Yet we must follow this fact through to its logical conclusion. The Muslims decided to have sex with their captives, whom they were later going to sell. These captives were women whose husbands and families had been exterminated by the Muslims. Would these women gladly consent to sexual intercourse with the men who had killed their families? Probably not. But since the Koran and Muhammad authorized sex with these captives, it is evident that Muhammad, with the blessings of the Arabic god Allah, allowed Muslims to rape their captives.

More light on the adoration of women by Muhammad, the apostle of the Arabic god Allah.

Muhammad offered women little hope for the afterlife. Indeed, he clearly states that most of the inhabitants of hell are women who were ungrateful to their husbands though he never suggests that ungrateful husbands will receive similar punishment. This means that, after being admonished, banished to a separate bed, and beaten by her husband, a willful woman can look forward to an eternity in hell:

The prophet (the blessing and peace of of the Arabic god Allah be upon him) said: "I saw paradise and stretched my hands towards a bunch (of its fruits) and had I taken it, you would have eaten from it as long as the world remains. I also saw the Hell-fire and I had never seen such a horrible sight. I saw that most of the inhabitants were women." The people asked: "O Allah’s Apostle! Why is it so?" The prophet (the blessing and peace of the Arabic god Allah be upon him) said: "Because of their ungratefulness." It was asked whether they are ungrateful to Allah. The prophet (the blessing and peace of the Arabic god Allah be upon him) said: "They are ungrateful to their companions of life (husbands) and ungrateful to good deeds."

Muhammad said, "O women! Give to charity, for I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-Fire were women."

The women asked, "O Allah’s Apostle! What is the reason for it?"

He said: "O women! You curse frequently, and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. O women, some of you can lead a cautious man astray."

However, even if these women were to stop cursing and to start thanking their husbands, their prospects for the afterlife would still leave much to be desired. According to Muhammad, Muslim women can look forward to an eternity of standing in corners, waiting for men to come and have sex with them:

The Arabic god Allah’s Apostle (The blessing and peace of the Arabic god Allah be upon him) said: "In Paradise there is a pavilion made of a single hollow pearl sixty miles wide, in each corner of which there are wives who will not see those in the other corners; and the believers will visit and enjoy them."

Hence, good Muslim women who respect their husbands in this life will have the opportunity to continue their sexual service to their husbands in "Paradise." Apparently, Muhammad considered this to be an appropriate view of Paradise; many women would rightly disagree.

According to Muhammad, women lack common sense because their minds are deficient. Of course, this declaration didn’t go unchallenged. To his credit, Muhammad allowed women to question him about their intellectual deficiencies. His response to these questions was illuminating:

Muhammad said: O womenfolk, you should give charity and ask much forgiveness for I saw you in bulk amongst the dwellers of Hell. A wise lady among them said: Why is it, Messenger of Allah, that our folk is in bulk in Hell? Upon this the Holy Prophet observed: You curse too much and are ungrateful to your spouses. I have seen none lacking in common sense and failing in religion but at the same time robbing the wisdom of the wise, besides you. Upon this the woman remarked: What is wrong with our common sense and with religion? The self-proclaimed prophet of the Arabic Allah observed: Your lack of common sense can be well judged from the fact that the evidence of two women is equal to one man, that is a proof of the lack of common sense

The self-proclaimed prophet (the blessing and peace of the Arabic god Allah be upon him) said: "Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said: "Yes." He said: "This is because of the deficiency of her mind."

Notice here that, in the first passage, Muhammad justifies his claim that women lack common sense by stating that their testimony is worth half that of a man. Yet, in the second passage, Muhammad justifies his claim that the testimony of women is half as good as men’s testimony by stating that women have deficient minds. This is a classic example of circular reasoning. We can imagine a conversation between Muhammad and a more critical questioner:

Questioner: "O Muhammad! Why is Hell full of women?"
Muhammad: "Because they lack common sense!"
Questioner: "How do you know they lack common sense?"
Muhammad: "Their lack of common sense can be seen from the fact that their testimony is only half as good as a man’s testimony."
Questioner: "But why is their testimony half as good as a man’s?"
Muhammad: "Because of the deficiency of their minds!"
Questioner: "How do you know that their minds are deficient?"
Muhammad: "The deficiency of their minds can be seen from the fact that their testimony is worth half the testimony of a man."
Questioner: "Again, why is their testimony half as good?"
Muhammad: "Because their minds are deficient!"
Questioner: "Maybe the only thing deficient here is your argument."

Notice also that Muhammad’s claims here are falsifiable. That is, they can be tested and, in theory, disproved. We could easily set up an experiment to see whether Muhammad’s statements about the inferiority of a woman’s intellect are correct. We could also set up an experiment in which a group of men and a group of women each witness the same accident. If the testimonies gathered from the male group are twice as accurate as the testimonies taken from the female group, Muhammad’s statements will have been vindicated. On the other hand, if the reports from the two groups are similar, we can dismiss Muhammad’s ideas as the sexist comments of a man affected by cultural biases.

First fact about Muhamamd and women. What Muhammad said is the law in Islam. Read Verse 4:34 in the Koran that I have posted above.

The Koran allows, in fact, commands men to beat their wives into subservience. If a wife doesn’t listen to her husband, the husband should admonish her. If that doesn’t work, he is to make her sleep in a separate bed. However, if the wife still doesn’t respect her husband’s authority, even after she has been banished to another bed, the husband is told to physically punish her, that is beat her. Hence, according to God’s last and greatest self-proclaimed prophet, spousal abuse is permissible, and perhaps even required. Modern nations that have established laws against spousal abuse are therefore in direct violation of Allah’s command in the Koran.

That Muhammad felt no remorse in sexually abusing female children like Aisha is proof that women are not equal to men.

Victoria lies that hindu women are trained to wlak behind their husband.

My grandmother and mother never walked behind their husbands. My wife does not wlak behind me.

Another example of Muslims placing blame for the shortcomings of Muhammadanism on other faiths. In Hinduism the supreme deity , Shakti , is female.

Here is how women are defined in Islam.

Verse 4:34 in the Koran

Men are the maintainers of women, because Allah has made the one superior to the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in absence what Allah would have them guard( Allah was refrring to the vagina and breats). As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them , refuse to share their beds, beat them ; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means of annoyance: For Allah is Most High, great above you all.

Islam never banned slavery. There is not a single verse in the Koran or hadiths that forbid slavery. in fact Islam allows the slave owner to have slave girls for sex. In fact Muslims may not have sex with women maried to other men unless that woman happens to be his slave girl that he owns. Prophet Muhamamd had at least two slave girls he did not marry. Maria and Rayhana. Maria was given to him by the ruler of Egypt to fend Muhamamd off. Maria bore him his only male child, Ibrahim. Ibrahim, born outside wedlock, died as an ifnat.

Muhamamd had had the husband of Rayhana, a Jewish woman, murdered. he took her to bed the same night he murdered her husband since the Arabic god Allah allows such booty from war.

In the case of Muhammad, he is allowed to possess even married women, that is women not married to him. In the verse below, " thy right hand possesseth " refers to slave girls. In Islam it is permissible to take the widows of the enemy as slave girls. If bin Laden defeats George Bush, watch out Laura.

Note the verse also permits incest.

Verse 33.050 from the Koran

O Prophet! Lo! We have made lawful unto thee thy wives unto whom thou hast paid their dowries, and those whom thy right hand possesseth of those whom Allah hath given thee as spoils of war(slave girls), and the daughters of thine uncle on the father's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the father's side, and the daughters of thine uncle on the mother's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the mother's side who emigrated with thee, and a believing woman if she give herself unto the Prophet and the Prophet desire to ask her in marriage - a privilege for thee only, not for the (rest of) believers - We are Aware of that which We enjoined upon them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess - that thou mayst be free from blame, for Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.

And here is saying of Muhammad from Muwatta. Skin color was very important to Muhammad.

Muwatta by Malik Book 43, Number 43.7.6:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Ibn Shihab from Said ibn al-Musayyab that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, gave a judgement that the compensation for a foetus killed in its mother's womb was a slave or slave-girl of white complexion and excellence. The one against whom the judgement was given said, "Why should I pay damages for that which did not drink or eat or speak or make any cry. The like of that is nothing." The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "This is only one of the brothers of the diviners." He disapproved of the rhyming speech of the man's declaration.

Deborah, I am so glad you were able to be married by a woman rabbi. I only wish my religion, Catholicism, would start ordaining women as priests. There is a severe shortage of Catholic priests in the United States, and I'll bet that if women could be priests, that shortage would be greatly eased. I wish the Catholic church would use its full resources instead of cutting half of them out of the priesthood.

"Religious Restrictions On Women Are Men's Way of Avoiding Temptation". I would amend this title to say "Religious Restrictions on Women Are Men's Way of Avoiding Sexual Arousal In Public". Some men can handle an erection in public. Some men can't.

Perhaps the way to unfetter women from sexual restrictions would be to require sexual education of all men. Teach masturbation, cold showers, mind control, whatever it takes, in schools. Put the responsibility where it belongs.

To Victoria,
I think it is interesting that a modern woman would choose to cover herself head to foot in public, but I don't find it strange. I remember my Victorian-era (no pun intended) grandmother telling me that when she married in 1917, she was proud of the fact that her future husband had never seen any part of her body except her face & hands before their wedding night. So being careful not to sexually arouse men in public is not just an Islamic idea. She was taught that 'good' women did not try to arouse men other than their lawful husband.

On the other hand, my grandmother told me that as her marriage continued & she had child after child after child, she wanted to stop having children after 4. But her husband refused to either discontinue sex or to have an operation (no condoms then). After her 7th child, she had a hysterectomy. I asked her why she didn't just say 'no'. She said it was because the Bible says wives must submit their bodies to their husbands, & she wanted to do what God said to do. Her health was deteriorating, she had hernias & infections & at the last child's birth, appendicitis, which almost killed her & the baby. But with all that sickness & her husband being told by the doctor that she shouldn't have any more children, he refused to have a vasectomy, so it was she who finally stopped the baby mill.

My grandmother was very conservative, even a fundamentalist Christian. But her goal was to be a good loving Godly person. I admire her for her intentions, but I deplore her failures. She tried to teach me to hate being a woman. I think if she had been born into a Roman Catholic family she would have become a nun, sexually celibate (which is probably who monastery's & nunneries were originally created for). She told me women weren't supposed to enjoy sex - that was a man's purview. She deplored her role as a sexual mate. She only married because it was what she was told she was supposed to do. She made her children's life miserable, so much so that when they left home they never came back.

I think the main thing I learned from my grandmother is people need to figure out what is best for their individual personality, and live their life as feels & results best for them. We shouldn't be telling other people how to live. That's one big fault I find in religions. And in my grandmother. She spent her life trying to tell everyone else they should all feel the way she did.

Victoria, It's good to see someone like yourself on this kind of forum. May you be rewarded rightly for your efforts to educate some of the ignorant people here.

> i am certnly entitled to present myslef as i sse fit without judgement or ridicule form others.

Amen to that. It's entirely your choice. I pray that all women will have that choice soon rather than having it dictated to them as happens now.

that is also my point fern- but in this world we ARE at first glance defined and judged by our attire- however unfair that might be.

hen i said we- i was speaking( i thought it was obvious since i assumed you dont wear hijab) for muslim women who wear hijab.

i said defining ourselves-meaning our presentation to the outside world- which you also do every day when you decide how you will dress yourself.

as i remarked above the outer appearance is superficial- alot of misconceptions surrounding the meaning of it have been presented- you can see people are still hung up on it by their attachment to the outwer representation of it-

i would never presume to judge someone on their choice of clothes- or tell them what it means for them-
likewise i will express myself what it means forme as im the only one qualified to do so-

what others perceptions of it are- is just that- their own perceptions.
i was simply addressing some misconceptions people impose on it form their perspectives.

it remains an observance of submission to the will of ALLAH as a muslimah-in society it is respected for that- by muslims and non- muslims. Those with closed minds that make judgements on something so superfical- are not peope i care to have discussions with anyway.

when i was a kid i noticed that the hippies in their attempts tro be 'different ' all wore the same uniform. and remarked about it- to hippies.

i wasnt asking what your perception is- i was defining my own misunderstood (seemingly continued) reasons.

as i stated- it doesnt define me as an intellectual being- im already that- but it enables sex to be omitted from the social equation so that it doesnt distract from my intellectual or spiritual nature.

i am certnly entitled to present myslef as i sse fit without judgement or ridicule form others.
peace

> FERN- again it is not designed to avoid sexual drama- i indicated that was an effect of it-not
> the reason for it.

Victoria,

Earlier you had said:

> through covering our head- we are defining ourselves as intellectual and spiritual beings to > be dealt with in that context.

To me at least, a head-covering does not define a woman as an intellectual/spiritual being. I recognize that is how you see it, but not everyone's reaction will be as you wish. To me a woman wears a head covering because she's decided or been forced into doing so as part of her Islamic identity.

To me, a woman defines herself as an intellectual and spiritual being by how her full nature presents itself - what she wears being only a small part of that and even then dress is context dependent.

I remember being propositioned a prostitute in India years ago. She was wearing the same clothes as all the other Indian women. But what she was wearing had nothing to do with who she was.

Kudos to Deborah Tannen!

Like her, I'm married. Obviously, we love men and the men that love us are feminists.

I've explained to my daughters that I don't believe in religion for precisely the reasons she outlined.

I don't believe god, if there is one, hates women. I believe a lot of men use religion to exploit hate.

Women who put up with "servant/leader" marriages, sitting in back rooms, shaving their heads, having their honeymoon sheets inspected, and other indignities are complicit in their exploitation.

If I prayed, I would do so that these women wake up and leave their oppressive beliefs behind. After all, if religious men have no women to oppress, they'll have to shape up.

NGORDON- hindu women are trained to follow behind their men- not muslims- another cultural borrowing of indian muslims-
BEVERLY- your inability to understand an idea that is unfamiliar to you belies your contended ability to read the minds of those i encounter to know if its derision or respect.

here is what iactually said ngordon-

the hijab takes sex out of the equation of interaction between genders- when we proclaim our submission to ALLAH through covering our head- we are defining ourselves as intellectual and spiritual beings to be dealt with in that context.

as you can see- it is not promoted as a sexual deterrant- FERN- again it is not designed to avoid sexual drama- i indicated that was an effect of it-not the reason for it.

NGORDON- it is so many people who wrongly assess and make inaccurate conclusions that i decided to define myself- by your definition i wouldnt have just gotten out of my car and come into my house without some archaic permission from my husband-

i think my vociferous expression here is proof enough of my ability to speak and think for myslef. fo you think my husband approves what i write here? usually he laughs at the misconceptions people have- and tells me not to bother- but its my nature to address unfairness-
id be the first to defend any womans right to self determination(and believe me i do)

i find many women dont even know themselves what their own religion is (and men)

so again- it equalizes the position of women to be perceived as intellectual- reasoning- intelligent and spritual beings- sex is not and hasnt been the impetus- it is when sex is removed (as in a nudist camp) that dialogue can be open-

the wearing of hijab has nothing to do with sex- if its a womans intention to flirt no amount of cloth can cover her intentions- ive seen some mighty effective flirtation from women who only had a wiggle and eyes to convey it-

the point is- we all control our own sexual expression through our own responsible actions.

the timbre of voice- so many subtleties can convey our desire- expressing desire is not the point.

people really get carried away with the superficialities of clothes and big pointy hats- while missing the contents of the expression.

by the way BEVERLY- islam is the first religion to forbid slavery. period.

so again i will choose to define myself.
thanks

Good article. It highlights the changes that have occurred and are continuing to occur.

Victoria's point is interesting. I agree that the historical Islamic dress code was designed to avoid many sexual dramas. However, in the modern world, there can be sexual dramas started by tone of voice alone. How many of us guys have been attracted to a woman with a sexy, "come hither" voice!? And interest in sexuality can be extinguished in a nudist camp.

I'm all for promoting thinking with brains and not gonads, most of the time, at least, but simple choice of what one wears does not necessarily have anything to do with that.

I truly liked this article. Well presented and thought thru.
On a sidenote - as for the muslim/islam tradition of headcovering, I agree totally that this is promoted as a sexual determent for men. However, it is also taught as a necessary garment for women as it is the woman's nature to deceive and lead men away from allah. The women are trained to walk behind the men, to not speak unless spoken to, to not go out in public unless escorted by a male member of the family, and to only serve men as they are told, not as they think it should be.
Just thought I needed to add this truth of most of the experience of women in islam/muslim cultures.

Victoria shows how indoctrinated she is. Slavery in the name of religion is still slavery. What she thinks is respect is derision. How any woman can think she is respected because she is covered is beyond me. I am pagan and don't understand how any woman with any self-respect can belong to any of the 'main' religions.

Women and Islam,etc

Lovely quote from Victoria.

Tannen's column deals more with the phenomenon of many Muslim women covering their bodies, restricting their trips outside, etc.

As Tannen indicates, this can (and I think should) be interpreted as a Cultural Regulation of the society's sexuality, most specifically of men's sexual attraction to women, and how it can be controlled to keep order and social productivity.

The interplay between scripture and cultural pressures is a very interesting topic, rich and complicated.

Re.Ladybug,I agree that once the nature religions were widely practiced and then we were to become enlightened to the "right"way to do things.I.E. to become christians as the nature religious worshippers were heathens and pagans all destined to hell. Well I believe the old ways are better.Equallity and balance in all things.Only then can we move forward.

This is from the Qur'an:

"I shall not lose sight of the labor of any of you who labors in My way, be it man or woman; each of you is equal to the other (3:195)"

i think that about says it.
peace

There is such hypocracy rampant in all religions. Not the least of which is the inequality between the roles of men and women. The problem with all religions is the religion itself which is based on the subjective nature of human kind, and not the belief in God. Before the established houses of worship there were nature based religions which recognized and honored equally the most basic elements of life itself, the duality that exists everywhere and in everything; women and men, moon and sun, night and day, give and take, life and death, etc. This basic belief system is what our whole exsistance is built on and can't exist without, so how can man look down on woman, or see women as "less than" "Absolute power corrupts absolutely," I've forgotten who is credited with having coined that phrase, but is the corruptability of human kind that creates this inequality. One misogynist so called "man of God" with a broken heart, a chip on his shoulder, and a cash cow at his feet will definitely flavor his decisions based on those feelings.

I enjoyed the posting by Deborah. It was well written and made some very good points. I myself have never been a religous person, ever since I sat down and read the bible. Sorry, but what man thought to be true 2000 years ago has been proven false time and time again. I'm waiting for the day when today's religous myths go the way of the Greek and Roman gods; to the fictional section of the library where they belong.

James sounds like a really fun date:{

your presumption that women in islam cover their hair for the same reason is incorrect.
men in islamalso have proscriptions for modest dress,
the hijab takes sex out of the equation of interaction between genders- when we proclaim our submission to ALLAH through covering our head- we are defining ourselves as intellectual and spiritual beings to be dealt with in that context.

You would be amazed at the level of intelligent conversation that is freeto occur because there is no distracting sexual dramas being played out.

Even non-muslim men who dont know what it means respond in a respectful way to my outward appearance.

I am an ambassador of my religion in public at all times and my behavior must be sterling because of it-

i have an automatic expectation that i will be respected- and it is very rare indeed that any man tries to cross those boundaries through inappropriately sexually oriented language or touching of any kind- which i shoot down immediately.

I am a beautiful woman and have been subjected to unwanted attentions many times- i can tell when im getting the eye- and i can also tell when my hijab discourages further pursuit by the males of my species.

i insist through my dress that i be treated as an equal in discourse- it is the greatest equalizer of all.
this is my experience- not an opinion about the experiences of others which is what ive seen expressed here.
do not define me- i can do it myself.
peace

This is a good article. But I ask why are Hasidic men also enslaved with all kinds of rules and regulations that seem to have very little to do with our relationship and love for God. Both sexes suffer as men are also expected to dress a certain way and are trained to treat women in a way that may not demonstrate love. Religion is not partial to either sex when it comes to these things and this to the detriment of both sexes. Telling a woman to wear the burka is bad enough but the guys are expect to not only dress a certain way but to blow themselves up. And we should only feel sympathy for the women? Religion should free a person not enslave them. When a woman is restricted by crazy man made rules, this hurts us all. When a man is restricted similarly it hurts us all. God needs to be worshiped in spirit and truth and all this garbage with beards and robes needs to be ditched. The Pope looks just as ridiculous in his cone head hat as the Islamic leader looks in his robes and scraggily beard, as the Hasidic looks with a funny little hat and those side burns that can not be cut. How silly. God does not care about what is on the outside but what is on the inside. And many who look pious on the outside are full of hate on the inside.

I think u are not well informed about the jewish laws and costumes.

This insightful, well-written article deserves better responses.

I find this very interesting, having just finished reading the Torah/Pentateuch. I don't find the original Jewish law very sexist at all. Some of the regulations, such as the "uncleanness" of a woman during her period and for weeks after childbirth, serve a woman very well, in that during such sensitive times her husband won't be pestering her for sex. One has to look at the bigger picture.

Head shaving? That's definitely one of those human add-on traditions. From what I read, head shaving only applied to captive women, not the Israelites.

"James Buchanan," you need to learn the difference between a marionette and a hand-puppet. Get an edumacation.

James....shame on you. What are you drinking? This is a very deep and well written truth about man's abusive nature toward women. Lets'just admit it and then we can be healed.

Sexuality and Power in Religious Institutions

A most insightful post, Ms Tannen.

There is much insight to be gained by looking at Power institutions like the Church and the state

through the lens of analysing their desire to control the sexual behavior of their subjects.

Men sexually desire women, and in times of no restraint (eg War) have regularly violated them sexually.

Social institutions try to govern such forces so that requisite order can be kept, children can be raised in an orderly way, and the tribe will flourish.

----when a woman does stand up for herself she gets abused, sexually harassed, raped, beaten, tortured, mutilated and murdered, as does her children.----

Leave Islam behind then!

James, dear, when a woman does stand up for herself she gets abused, sexually harassed, raped, beaten, tortured, mutilated and murdered, as does her children. You sound like a fan.

James needs to bend over!

Well, ya know, you could try telling religiously dominant men to go screw themselves, but then you'll get all binded about how impolite that sounds. Do you really lack the ability to stand up for yourself without a man's hand up your butt like a marionette? Act for yourself, think for yourself, and get your life back, or stop whining and bend over when he tells you to.

Despite denial , rationalization and equivocation, the fact is that Othodox Judaism is anti-feminist, witness the daily prayer giving thanks for not being born a female.