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Don’t believe one optimistic word from any public figure about the economy or humanity in general. They are all part of the problem. Its like a game of Monopoly. In America, the richest 1% now hold 1/2 OF ALL UNITED STATES WEALTH. Unlike ‘lesser’ estimates, this includes all stocks, bonds, cash, and material assets held by America’s richest 1%. Even that filthy pig Oprah acknowledged that it was at about 50% in 2006. Naturally, she put her own ‘humanitarian’ spin on it. Calling attention to her own ‘good will’. WHAT A DISGUSTING HYPOCRITE SLOB. THE RICHEST 1% HAVE LITERALLY MADE WORLD PROSPERITY ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE. Don’t fall for any of their ‘humanitarian’ CRAP. ITS A SHAM. THESE PEOPLE ARE CAUSING THE SAME PROBLEMS THEY PRETEND TO CARE ABOUT. Ask any professor of economics. Money does not grow on trees. The government can’t just print up more on a whim. At any given time, there is a relative limit to the wealth within ANY economy of ANY size. So when too much wealth accumulates at the top, the middle class slip further into debt and the lower class further into poverty. A similar rule applies worldwide. The world’s richest 1% now own over 40% of ALL WORLD WEALTH. This is EVEN AFTER you account for all of this ‘good will’ ‘humanitarian’ BS from celebrities and executives. ITS A SHAM. As they get richer and richer, less wealth is left circulating beneath them. This is the single greatest underlying cause for the current US recession. The middle class can no longer afford to sustain their share of the economy. Their wealth has been gradually transfered to the richest 1%. One way or another, we suffer because of their incredible greed. We are talking about TRILLIONS of dollars which have been transfered FROM US TO THEM. All over a period of about 27 years. Thats Reaganomics for you. The wealth does not ‘trickle down’ as we were told it would. It just accumulates at the top. Shrinking the middle class and expanding the lower class. Causing a domino effect of socio-economic problems. But the rich will never stop. They just keep getting richer. Leaving even less of the pie for the other 99% of us to share. At the same time, they throw back a few tax deductible crumbs and call themselves ‘humanitarians’. Cashing in on the PR and getting even richer the following year. IT CAN’T WORK THIS WAY. Their bogus efforts to make the world a better place can not possibly succeed. Any 'humanitarian' progress made in one area will be lost in another. EVERY SINGLE TIME. IT ABSOLUTELY CAN NOT WORK THIS WAY. This is going to end just like a game of Monopoly. The current US recession will drag on for years and lead into the worst US depression of all time. The richest 1% will live like royalty while the rest of us fight over jobs, food, and gasoline. So don’t fall for any of this PR CRAP from Hollywood, Pro Sports, and Wall Street PIGS. ITS A SHAM. Remember: They are filthy rich EVEN AFTER their tax deductible contributions. Greedy pigs. Now, we are headed for the worst economic and cultural crisis of all time. Crime, poverty, and suicide will skyrocket. SEND A “THANK YOU” NOTE TO YOUR FAVORITE MILLIONAIRE. ITS THEIR FAULT. I’m not discounting other factors like China, sub-prime, or gas prices. But all of those factors combined still pale in comparison to that HUGE transfer of wealth to the rich. Anyway, those other factors are all related and further aggrivated because of GREED. If it weren’t for the OBSCENE distribution of wealth within our country, there never would have been such a market for sub-prime to begin with. Which by the way, was another trick whipped up by greedy bankers and executives. IT MAKES THEM RICHER. The credit industry has been ENDORSED by people like Oprah Winfrey, Ellen DeGenerous, Dr Phil, and many other celebrities. IT MAKES THEM RICHER. Now, there are commercial ties between nearly every industry and every public figure. IT MAKES THEM RICHER. So don’t fall for their ‘good will’ BS. ITS A LIE. If you fall for it, then you’re a fool. If you see any real difference between the moral character of a celebrity, politician, attorney, or executive, then you’re a fool. No offense fellow citizens. But we have been mislead by nearly every public figure. WAKE UP PEOPLE. THEIR GOAL IS TO WIN THE GAME. The 1% club will always say or do whatever it takes to get as rich as possible. Without the slightest regard for anything or anyone but themselves. Reaganomics. Their idea. Loans from China. Their idea. NAFTA. Their idea. Outsourcing. Their idea. Sub-prime. Their idea. High energy prices. Their idea. Obscene health care charges. Their idea. The commercial lobbyist. Their idea. The multi-million dollar lawsuit. Their idea. The multi-million dollar endorsement deal. Their idea. $200 cell phone bills. Their idea. $200 basketball shoes. Their idea. $30 late fees. Their idea. $30 NSF fees. Their idea. $20 DVDs. Their idea. Subliminal advertising. Their idea. Brainwash plots on TV. Their idea. Vioxx, and Celebrex. Their idea. The MASSIVE campaign to turn every American into a brainwashed, credit card, pharmaceutical, love-sick, celebrity junkie. Their idea. All of the above shrink the middle class, concentrate the world’s wealth and resources, create a dominoe effect of socio-economic problems, and wreak havok on society. All of which have been CREATED AND ENDORSED by celebrities, athletes, executives, entrepreneurs, attorneys, and politicians. IT MAKES THEM RICHER. So don’t fall for any of their ‘good will’ ‘humanitarian’ BS. ITS A SHAM. NOTHING BUT TAX DEDUCTIBLE PR CRAP. In many cases, the 'charitable' contribution is almost entirely offset. Not to mention the opportunity to plug their name, image, product, and 'good will' all at once. IT MAKES THEM RICHER. These filthy pigs even have the nerve to throw a fit and spin up a misleading defense with regard to 'federal tax revenue'. ITS A SHAM. THEY SCREWED UP THE EQUATION TO BEGIN WITH. If the middle and lower classes had a greater share of the pie, they could easily cover a greater share of the federal tax revenue. They are held down in many ways because of greed. Wages remain stagnant for millions because the executives, celebrities, athletes, attorneys, and entrepreneurs, are paid millions. They over-sell, over-charge, under-pay, outsource, cut jobs, and benefits to increase their bottom line. As their profits rise, so do the stock values. Which are owned primarily by the richest 5%. As more United States wealth rises to the top, the middle and lower classes inevitably suffer. This reduces the potential tax reveue drawn from those brackets. At the same time, it wreaks havok on middle and lower class communities and increases the need for financial aid. Not to mention the spike in crime because of it. There is a dominoe effect to consider. IT CAN'T WORK THIS WAY. But our leaders refuse to acknowledge this. Instead they come up with one trick after another to milk the system and screw the majority. These decisions are heavily influensed by the 1% club. Every year, billions of federal tax dollars are diverted behind the scenes back to the rich and their respective industries. Loans from China have been necessary to compensate in part, for the red ink and multi-trillion dollar transfer of wealth to the rich. At the same time, the feds have been pushing more financial burden onto the states who push them lower onto the cities. Again, the hardship is felt more by the majority and less by the 1% club. The rich prefer to live in exclusive areas or upper class communities. They get the best of everything. Reliable city services, new schools, freshly paved roads, upscale parks, ect. The middle and lower class communities get little or nothing without a local tax increase. Which, they usually can't afford. So the red ink flows followed by service cuts and lay-offs. All because of the OBSCENE distribution of bottom line wealth in this country. So when people forgive the rich for their incredible greed and then praise them for paying a greater share of the FEDERAL income taxes, its like nails on a chalk board. I can not accept any theory that our economy would suffer in any way with a more reasonable distribution of wealth. Afterall, it was more reasonable 30 years ago. Before Reaganomics came along. Before GREED became such an epidemic. Before we had an army of over-paid executives, bankers, celebrities, athletes, attorneys, doctors, investors, entrepreneurs, developers, and sold-out politicians to kiss their asses. As a nation, we were in much better shape. Strong middle class, free and clear assets, lower crime rate, more widespread prosperity, stable job market, lower deficit, ect. Our economy as a whole was much more stable and prosperous for the majority. WITHOUT LOANS FROM CHINA. Now, we have a more obscene distribution of bottom line wealth than ever before. We have a sold-out government, crumbling infrastructure, energy crisis, home forclosure epidemic, 13 figure national deficit, and 12 figure annual shortfall. The cost of living is higher than ever before. Most people can't even afford basic health care. ALL BECAUSE OF GREED. I really don't blame the 2nd -5th percentiles in general. No economy could ever function without some reasonable scale of personal wealth and income. But it can't be allowed to run wild like a mad dog. ALBERT EINSTEIN TRIED TO MAKE PEOPLE UNDERSTAND. UNBRIDLED CAPITALISM ABSOLUTELY CAN NOT WORK. TOP HEAVY ECONOMIES ALWAYS COLLAPSE. Bottom line: The richest 1% will soon tank the largest economy in the world. It will be like nothing we’ve ever seen before. The American dream will be shattered. and thats just the beginning. Greed will eventually tank every major economy in the world. Causing millions to suffer and die. Oprah, Angelina, Brad, Bono, and Bill are not part of the solution. They are part of the problem. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A MULTI-MILLIONAIRE HUMANITARIAN. EXTREME WEALTH MAKES WORLD PROSPERITY ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE. WITHOUT WORLD PROSPERITY, THERE WILL NEVER BE WORLD PEACE OR ANYTHING EVEN CLOSE. GREED KILLS. IT WILL BE OUR DOWNFALL. Of course, the rich will throw a fit and call me a madman.. Of course, they will jump to small minded conclusions about 'jealousy', 'envy', or 'socialism'. Of course, their ignorant fans will do the same. You have to expect that. But I speak the truth. If you don’t believe me, then copy this entry and run it by any professor of economics or socio-economics. Then tell a friend. Call the local radio station. 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It's a great achievement for Islamic leaders and scholars as well as Newsweek and the Washington post to present this imperative opportunity for inter cultural and global philosophical dialogue. What's important is that by exchanging our ideas and comments regarding inter religious relations and world events that affect our views of each other as fellow human beings. Since the advent of humanity, We strove to make sense of the world we live in and the lives we've experienced. Worldwide curiosities to learn the true nature of life and our universe is an exceptionally rare virtue upon life on Earth. In other words, we're the only known species on the planet who've pursued to unravel these great mysteries and developed written philosophies based upon our understanding of the world around us.
One such philosophy that lasted throughout the ages of humanity is commonly known as religion and spirituality. Ever since our early belief in the Sky God and the God Mother from ancient Pagan times, we vigorously pursued to unravel the truth about our most profound questions. As any educated person would know that religion and their core beliefs or faith have evolved over time. Paganism, Monotheism and Polytheism have been influenced by humanity as these great philosophies have influenced our perceptions and decisions in life over the ages. Over time humanity has embraced diverse religious faiths and spiritual convictions that continue to influence our behavior in our times and most likely beyond.
What's vital for humanity's progress and even survival is to know the true nature of faith itself. To understand the true origins of faith. But most of all, is to accept the truth for whatever it may be. Each one of us will learn the absolute truth once we die. But until that time comes for anyone of us to depart this world, we really don't know the answer to God's existence nor do we have the absolute truth in regards to the true nature of God. Besides if we did possess the truth, there would've been only one religion on Earth with no diversification of any way, shape of form. There would only be one holy scripture written throughout human history.
Considering one's religious faith to be absolute, while considering others to be false would be ethnocentric at best. While collectively searching to unravel the mysteries on nature, life and the universe through sincere reasoning and serious research would be enlightening at its worst. Most importantly, we must accept the fact is that none of us have conclusive evidence to confirm our core beliefs and there's always an immanent change that our most cherished beliefs could be wrong. Our greatest challenge would be to tolerate the truth no matter what it may ultimately be. With such an open mind, we would be able to overcome any future discovery that would contradict our faith regarding the true nature of life, spirituality and divinity.
Humanity does have the ability to achieve such a social achievement. However, it's solely up to humanity and not any other entity or groups of entities to decide our destinies. Each one of us has a choice to make; either hopelessly engaging into meaningless inter cultural conflicts or combine our scientific and cultural gifts to thrive into an enlightened global civilization that could ultimately expand beyond our solar system. The choice is yours, and the time to make it is now!

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Keith Ellison is a pig and a racist. Anything he says is a lie.

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you reak what you sow! if they dig lightly and i mean lightly theyll probably find that same physician prescribed his fav-RITE drug also with the physician name on the bottle. that alone should give the judge all the reason to prosecute. WBR LeoP

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Mr Ellison,

I wish you the best of luck in your endeavor as Congressman.

As a person that worked at her state capitol for a few years. I saw how new people were beaten down to play the game of politics. Please hold on to your ideals and not sell out. It is difficult work and easy to succomb to the pressure.

Aziz

In reference to your post..... Posted January 8, 2007 1:39 AM

Thank you.

ANONYMOUS-
you are entirely right about that- that is a major difference in the phiosophy of islam and western thought-
while the emphasis is on the rights of the individual virtually no western thought ever seems to address the needs and rights of society itself- the needs of society are always thoughtlessly subordinated to the needs of the individual- with it seems some disastrous results-this current administration has used the preoccupation of american mentality to over ride completely the rights of this society as a whole.

Now in islam the rights and needs of society are balanced against the rights of the individual-
it creates a different mentality- a more selfless less ego driven mentality-
when i see an abused woman and children- or a helpless homeless person- (or animal) i have a concern for them because the body of society is my own body- andclearly i have concern for my own body- so when i see the teen mother or any others mentioned- i bring my own body into my home and care for it as if it were me(as indeed it is)

ive done this more times than i have fngers and toes and am doing it right this minute-

in the pendulum swing towards 'rugged individualism' the needs of the society have been ignored- it is that me-first attitude that is eating at the core of america-

Rep. Ellison has actually discovered the philosophy that enables him to be such an outstanding public servant-

Islam offers a comprehensive structure that enables both needs to flourish.
peace and salaams

To Deb:

Your argument is flawed. What you are saying people like you are right and all other ones are liar. Does that mean you advocate violent against us. Of course Christian would say Islam is wrong (vice versa) and similarly Jews would say it is wrong (vice versa) that is Muslim are non believer (kafir). Christian would say same thing abt Jews (vice versa). That does not mean go on killing people with opposite view (tolerance). That mean one can still live together even though belief are contradictory. So of course Muslim would call non Muslim non believers (kafir) i.e non Muslim belief are wrong. If they do not that, that mean they are questioning their own belief. Calling someone kafir does not tatamount to violence.
Also submission to someone does not tatamount to violence and God cannot be violent (because if he is violent then he cannot be called God). One of Allah attribute is Merciful.
Before commenting read and think

I admire Ellison on the the stand he took on his faith.I watched him closely in his campaign,and i took an active role in his campaign.He is very articulate person.All these barbs,feud that people are showering on him is just because of his faith.Let's not put much attention on faith and put much emphasis on personality.

True peace and 'generosity' are found only in Yeshua the Christ, the only begotten Son of The Father God.
As Jesus said, the only true peace that is given to men is the peace that He alone gives. Not peace as the world gives which can be taken away.
I disagree with you that the only way to peace is through inclusionism. Even the eastern world does not include everyone.
I sincerely hope that those who are truly seeking for peace and acceptance will look to Yeshua. He is the only true peace that can not be taken away.
Peace!

do not cite maulana maududi- he is the one that inspires the terrorists and doesnt speak for mainstream islam which is why he died in jail in pakistan, for the hate that he spread and the violence he espoused.

"It's obvious that you have never read the Quran. Zaid Shakir and rest of Zaytuna academics and very respected and make many greats points.

Maybe you should bother to actually listen to what they say before dismissing them."

Yeah, right ! This blanket statement that we (non-Muslims) have not read the Quran, is atypical in such debates. We have read the translation of the Quran as in USC-MSA website. There are three English translations (Pickthall, Yusuf Ali and Shakir) available there ayah for ayah and with Maulana Maudoodi's commenatries. So, either all these three are flat liars or else you are a the crook, engaginhg in 'taqiya' with 'kafirs'.

It is one thing to say that one might be "cherry-picking", and quite another that we have not read the Quran, and hence it is implied that we are lying/fabricating.

Well, this attitude will not get Islam very far. The time to kick Muslims out of western Europe and USA is drawing near.

Good luck to Islam !

Congressman Ellison~

It is a beautiful idea; however, it requires a change of heart in the nation. It is hard to legislate a change of heart. So how do you propose bringing your idealism to the people? This can not be done until the people are willing to act more collectively, until we turn away from our rugged individualism and self interest, and start inviting our neighbors, the homeless, the teen mother, people of different races/religions, etc. into our homes.

Excuse my omissions, i replied in haste

Excuse my omissions, i replied in haste

It's obvious that you have never read the Quran. Zaid Shakir and rest of Zaytuna academics and very respected and make many greats points.

Maybe you should bother to actually listen to what they say before dismissing them.

As for my faith, I'm pretty certain I'll stick to Islam and you stick to yours regardless of mind less pseudo intellectual garbage you've been spouting.

The difference between us being that I choose to accept whatever you are without going out of my way to belittle it.

Dialogue blind hatred like yours is futile.

"Well considering you have presented irrefutable evidence, all 1.4 billion Muslim human beings must logically be barbaric and irrational for choosing to believe in such a religion."

Thanks for acknowledging the gravity of the situation. Yes, in my and some of the others views (such as author and WP panelist Sam Harris) it is logically incomprehensible why 1.4 million Muslims follow essentially an antiquated book that commands Muslims to engage in slaughter of those who will oppose Islam. (Again, Muslims will state that I am misquoting Quran, taking it out of context etc. and etc.) Essentially any form of faith is blind and illogical. Such breeds fanaticism and mayhem. This trait has more or less been a part and parcel of Islamic history since 1400 years. There is no reason to comply with the claim that Islam is in any way superior to the so-called "Divine messsage" in other religious traditions. So, when I hear one converting to Islam (out of some mundane personal reason/failing - such as Zaid Shakir), it does come across depressing. One more submission to a jealous, fanatical deity (Allah) who is all poised to destroy those who would not. In my view, it is a shameful act. Maybe you should consider rejecting Islam and embracing rationality instead.

"you will find what you are looking for deb- if youre looking for hatred and violence and barbarity- you will accomplish that end. "

Well, quite frankly I found violence and advocating terror in Quran. Messages of "peace" occassionally interpersed with messages of "violence" and "bloodshed".

you will find what you are looking for deb- if youre looking for hatred and violence and barbarity- you will accomplish that end.

if you are searching for peace and tolerance and the love of ALLAH, that is also what you will find.

i hope your search contains these things.
i wish you peace sincerely

Well considering you have presented irrefutable evidence, all 1.4 billion Muslim human beings must logically be barbaric and irrational for choosing to believe in such a religion.

Thank you for your enlightening discourse

"I know the foundations and details of my religion better then you, I am telling you. If you do not research in a fair and objective manner, you will not come to a reasonable conclusion."

I believe that I have researched in a fair and objective manner about Islam. I agree that there are various sects within Islam as within any religion. But, this diversity does not answer my (and others) question, that, why Osama bin Laden, follower of the puritanical Wahabi sect, can get away ad we have seen almost muted response from other sects within Islam against his tirade with the West.

Similar remarks apply to those Islamic sects who have raised mayhem on the recent Danish cartoons.
We have seen there are those who claim like you that extremism is bad, and yet do not stand upto those who engage in it.

It appears that all these schools of thought whatever are equally valid, that is, they must have been accorded equal status.

So, a fundamentalist, orthodox Muslim and his/her liberal counterpart have similar weightage. This is the problem. Moderates/liberals easily become orthodox and fundamentalist whenever convenient. The line is very blurry, and it does not matter what school of thought (Hanafi/Salafi/Wahabi) you belong to.

This situation defies any reason or logic and does surely lack consistency.

My conclusion: Islam is a barbaric religion. This is the education I have acquired by studying the behavior patterns of Islam/Muslims over the past few years. Other (non-Muslims) have arrived at the same conclusions.

Deb Chatterjee

There are many schools in islam, each with their own take on the religion.

I know the foundations and details of my religion better then you, I am telling you. If you do not research in a fair and objective manner, you will not come to a reasonable conclusion.

Your take on islam is wrong. There's nothing more i can say to you. No one would be muslim if you're saying was true.

Educate yourself.

It is a shame that people seek out forums to express their hatred.

i am happy to see the muslims here responding with such gentility.

i think it is a testament to our good manners that we repay attacks with peaceful rejoinder.

it seems any mention of islam attracts those with questionable agendas and intentions.

PEACE

"wow i never knew that the muslim students ass. of the university of southern california was the vanguard of islamic scholarship. All muslims look to the muslim students ass. of University of Southern California for guidence."

I think that blind defense of Islam (or any faith for that matter) is a problem. Let's see how my comments relate to the above quotes.

1. USC-MSA might certainly not be the vanguard of Islamic scholarship. However, they have provided explanations and commentaries from Maulana Syed Abul ala Maudoodi. (The sources are independently verifable.) This Maudoodi fellow, the founder of Jammat-i-Islam, is a well-respected Islamic scholar in academic circles. His works are well cited for authenticity, and that does lend enough credibility to Maudoodi's views on Islam. USC-MSA thus has not concocted or fabricated any stories or myths on Islam. What does appear is the fact that Muslims are denying the authenticity of Muslim sources quoted and cited in the USC-MSA website. If indeed Maudoodi is wrong, then one of the pillars of Islamic scholarship is false. This rejection of USC-MSA source stems from the pathological urge to defend Islam as the 'dhimmis' and 'kafirs' may use these sources to paint a negative picture that would be humiliating to Islam.

2. A gem that I gathered from USC-MSA website is that ISLAM IS NOT A RELIGION OF PEACE. According to many Muslims (westernized ones) Islam means "peace", but one can gather from USC-MSA website that Islam means "submission". One might (?) extend that to rephrase that Islam means "peace following after submission to the will of Allah". The will of Allah means whatever is in the Quran. So, if one becomes a Muslim (submits to Allah), then s/he is at peace. Islam does NOT preach peace, quite contrary to what we have been told by these westernized Muslims.

"Let people be, everyone should be able to freely believe what they want without your ignorant comments. Citing referrences doesnt change the fact that your factually inaccurate."

If there are factual inaccuracies, then the whole body of the Islamic scholarship is phoney baloney. I have (and USC-MSA has) relied on commentaries from Muslim scholars. So the bo'-bo' comments from you, as quoted above, are signs of intellectual dysfunction. If these sources are indeed inaccurate, then why doesn't the entire Muslim ummah rise up against such falsehood (that is inaccuracy) ? Why they remain so callous and oblivious to such misinformation ? Why only when some non-Muslim (kafir/dhimmi) uses these sources to advance an unpalatable argument against Islam, are these 'inaccuracies', 'slander' etc. and etc. become more important ?

It does appear that Muslims (and this could very well include Rep. Keith Ellison [D-MN]) don't have any respect for Islam, OR, don't know the foundations of Islam very well. Otherwise this imbroglio and impasse over which Muslim source is accurate or not would not have existed.

Latter day sources (such as Karen Armstrong/John Esposito), that paint a glorious picture of Islam, are considered authentic and acceptable. Anything negative is by default wrong. Maybe Rep. Keith Ellison should be asked probing questions about Islam to find out where he stands on the issues, which would justify the "inclusivity" and "exclusivity" aspects which he so proudly professes.

What a profound message from our new junior Congressman. Mr. Ellison's, "Choose Generosity, Not Exclusion" obviously has touched and enraptured many a soul in this forum.

So many voluminous postings, and repetitive posters have quite notibly been moved deeply by this humble servant of Allah, and his faithful constituents.

It moves me to a question that I at first meant to address only to the good Congressman, but after reading the flood of responces I direct my inquiry also to Victoria, Christian Seeker, and of course, you, Aziz.

Q. How does one say B--- S--- in Arabic?

wow i never knew that the muslim students ass. of the university of southern california was the vanguard of islamic scholarship. All muslims look to the muslim students ass. of University of Southern California for guidence.

"The tradition of rape, pillage, loot, arson and murder is intrinsic to Islamic history since Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). He claimed that he had all these granted by Allah who gave him the liberty tgo use them to spread the message. Well, I don't agree that Muhammad received any Divine message. He had an ambition of world domination. To do so, he invented Islam and used it as a vehicle to propagate his message. Viewed in today's knowledge, Islam can surely be characterized as a barbaric religion."

Come off it, i swear it never ends with your sort.

Let people be, everyone should be able to freely believe what they want without your ignorant comments. Citing referrences doesnt change the fact that your factually inaccurate.

the message of christ isnt distint, in fact mohamed, abdulbahai, zoroastra, mosses and abraham have all had the same message.

peace, kindness, charity, compasion,forgivness etc.

consider educating yourself a favor to humanity

Jai Khosla has provided devastating information, and the Sirat Rasul is a English translation by Alfred Guillaume of the earliest biography of Prophet Muhammad by Ibn Ishaq. I have also consulted the University of Southern California (Muslim Student Association) MSA website, but did not know at all that they had omitted some hadiths that would be very embarassing to Muslims (regarding sexual preferences of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and Hadrat Aisha) ! Interesting information, and thanks Jai.

Regarding the rape of non-Muslim women by Muslims (Pakistani) in Bangladesh liberation in 1971, I suggest anyone to read pages 78 to 86 of the following book:

Susan Brownmiller, AGAINST OUR WILL: MEN, WOMEN AND RAPE. Simon & Schuster, 1975. (It's available on Amazon.)

The tradition of rape, pillage, loot, arson and murder is intrinsic to Islamic history since Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). He claimed that he had all these granted by Allah who gave him the liberty tgo use them to spread the message. Well, I don't agree that Muhammad received any Divine message. He had an ambition of world domination. To do so, he invented Islam and used it as a vehicle to propagate his message. Viewed in today's knowledge, Islam can surely be characterized as a barbaric religion.

Jesus Christ was a messenger of peace, and quite unlike Jai Khosla I believe that he was endowed with Divine powers. The message of Christ is distinct from the organized religion known as Christianity. I am not a Christian myself.

Johanna:

Yes some fundamentalist want al Andalusia back but why should that reflect on Muslims as a whole.

Women should wear what they want to wear, whether it's a veil or a skirt where ever. It simply isn't up to you to decide. I am British; i was born in Belgium and have also lived in both Germany and turkey. Europe is my home and I do mind people telling Muslim women not to wear a veil. It should be up to the individual and not you or me.

Who is trying to set up sharia law in Europe, and what form of sharia is this. There seems to this misunderstanding about sharia. Sharia means law in Arabic and in reference to Islam, which particular form of sharia is these people attempt to instate. The sharia you mustly hear about is the Wahabi form, islam is not homogenous.

It's important to recognize that Muslims are people and people have to right to exist as they may and not as you want them. The same applies to all peoples of all beliefs.

However, I do agree that the state and religion should kept separate.

Surely Johanna you are not so unaware of islam that you really think that women wear the hijab because of dust and sun--- i live in new york- my grandmother was born in uttenwelier- and i am a convert to islam- and there is no strong sun here and hardly any wind- and i never go outside without it. The new racism in Europe is nothing to be proud of- you havent stated your religion but i suspect youre a christian- which is fine- did you know that in a muslim country the muslims would have to fight and die to protect YOUR safety?
Can you think of any religion that does such a thing for people of another religion?
I dont know what your sources of information in Germany about muslims are- but i know theres a great influx of turks there- a secular country full of muslims- the world is getting smaller Johanna- and we all have to become more- not less- tolerant- but its nothing that a little education and dialogue wont fix- (not insinuating youre not educated Johanna- i mean all of us).
When you see Mary(ata) the mother of Jesus(ata)represented- you see her head covered like mine- i even wear light blue and pink and white all the time and people are always asking me if im a nun- if you saw me youd probably think i was a relative and for all i know i might be-(frandma was a Marquardt). I really hope you find in your journey of life a good muslim lady to have a conversation with- even Pope John Paul II prayed in a mosque in Damascus- and invited Khatami- the PM of Iran to the Vatican- a first in catholic history- do you know that Mary(ata) is THE most respected woman in Islam? We love and respect so mny of the same values and people- the patriarchs-Jesus(ata) and god whom we call ALLAH- but its the same God. The jewish people call God Elohi (elohim is plural) the aramaic word Jesusu(ata) used for God is ALlaha- we believe in peace- family- modesty- honesty and prayer-the same as you- please give people in your community a chance-we all have to live together and if this war keeps up the earth may get smaller still.
PEACE

Having seen Keith speak in MN and knowing what I do of him, I can't fathom what planet these intolerant bigots come from to push this dogmatic anti-Muslim hatred. None of them are Christian by their actions! Keith is not here to impose Sharia or take over Christendom, but to offer a hand up to the minorities and poor who elected him. If you give a damn about the teachings of Jesus, allow the man to continue his politics of peace and kindness and show the nation how committed he is.

Having arrived late to this blog, I'm not ready to enter the fray in its entirety, but I do find myself intrigued by the communication patterns themselves. It seems to me that the discourse here is falling victim to the same type of thing I so often encounter within circles that purport to be arenas for discussion of issues of Christian faith, namely that the discussion of actual issues gets hijacked by dogmatic pronouncements. The issue that I see Rep. Ellison having invited us all to discuss is "We need a politics of generosity based on the reality of abundance as opposed to a politics of not-enough." Discussion of that issue might follow lines like "Do I agree that that is what we need? Why or why not?" or "Can a story that Christians regard as 'sacred' and that Muslims revere provide adequate ground for ethical truth-seeking by religious and non-religious persons alike?" Obviously there are more and weightier issues that Rep. Ellison also raises, and I grieve that the discussion here so often devolves into name-calling, finger-pointing, etc. I know that pattern too well among people who claim the same religious tradition that I do, and all it really does is ensure that an authentic search for truth doesn't take place.

Is there a way to live out a politics of generosity within a secular culture? My religious values embrace generosity as an essential virtue, without which my religious faith is inadequate. Within my own religious tradition, generosity is good because being generous is behaving the way God does. When God is not the motivation, though, how is generosity good (I ask this not to accuse the non-religious of being ungenerous, but truly to ask, what IS the motivation to generosity?)?

Aziz:

Do you mean that the "Guardian"/the British Police/MI5 are all lying?

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1984530,00.html

I am German, have lived and worked in the United States and receive U.S. pension benefits, supplementing my German retirement benefits. My husband is Japanese-American, and we live in Germany.

I shall not tolerate anyone who tries to establish the Sharia, especially not in Western countries.

Turkey is trying to join the EU. Al Kaida is trying to recapture Spain, all through islamists.

And, yes, I do mind seeing all the millions of headscarves/niqabs in Europe.

Muslims should just integrate or assimiliate. The sun is not so strong and the dust is not flying like in the Orient which would warrant covering up.

Beliefs and the State should be two separate entities.

Well I'm a Muslim from Europe and I'll tell you experience. The millions of normal Muslims get no attention from the media. We are told how to dress and are harassed everywhere. Our opinions arent shown on the media.

However, the moment a nutcase says anything, it's all over the media and the nutcase is portrayed as a representative of all Muslims.

End of the day, if its not religion then its color. If its not color, its ethnicity.
ETC ETC

People please let go of this crap.

no johanna- anonymous is a hater and a coward who wont even show their name- i stay away from hate

would you think it better to return hate with hatred? ive tried kindness and patience
now only indifference will work

> i havent read a post of theirs yet

You should...

>as long as people have something outside themselves to blame

That is the problem, at least with many Muslims in Europe.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1984530,00.html

yes aziz- as long as people have something outside themselves to blame- they never have to look at their ownactions- they never ask any questions-

just ignore anonymous i havent read a post of theirs yet like attracts like
let the headbangers bang

Seems to me that everyone needs the enemy from without instead of asking why in the US you spend so much on the military industrial complex yet you have poor healthcare provisions, poor education and poor distribution of wealth.

So blame muslims and see that helps your country. Democracy has been erroded through the teaching of hate and fear by your media and government.

Anonymous cited from Jihadwatch.

Here is the article from "The Guardian" and another article from CBN News:

>Revealed: preachers' messages of hate

Muslim worshippers are being urged by radical clerics to ignore British law

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1984530,00.html

Make Way for the Mega-Mosque
By Dale Hurd
CBN News
January 9, 2007
CBNNews.com - LONDON - Some now call London the "Muslim capital of Europe."
No Western city has more mosques.
And now London could be home to the largest Mosque outside of the Middle East.<

http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/83805.aspx

disturbing statistics form a christian site linked to islamaphobiawatch

as of jan 9 updated every 15 minutes

Do you consider Islam to be a peaceful religion? Yes 15,536 No 203,916
Do you consider Islam to be a tolerant religion? Yes 8,923 No 210,089
Would America be a better country if it were a Muslim country? Yes 1,595 No 217,282
Should America place equal emphasis on the Koran and the Bible? Yes 5,671 No 212,703
Would it be good for America to have more Muslims in elected offices? Yes 5,626 No 212,089
Would you vote for a Muslim for president? Yes 5,055 No 212,995
As a general rule, are women treated better in America than in a Muslim country? Yes 199,911 No 18,316
Is America too dependent on Muslim countries for oil? Yes 209,974 No 8,212
Do Muslim countries do more than America to help the poor? Yes 5,646 No 211,087
(updated every fifteen minutes)

its a little scary

> To every reasonable person on this forum, this is what we as the people of this planet have to contend > with. Doesn't matter where they come from or what religion they claim. All they do is hate and come up > with more ways to be divisive. Don't fall for it.

Exactly. In every country, religion, ethnic group there are agents of darkness stirring up fear, hatred and anger; trying to get others to join them. There are also agents of light, those who look to transcend arbitrary divisions and join as one human race with apparent differences enriching the whole.
People have to choose whether or not to embrace darkness or light.

I don't see the point in this anti Islamic propaganda from jihad watch.

Muslims and non Muslims live together all over the world. So what are you implying? All Muslims should be got rid off? All Muslims will potentially kill you?

People like you make me sick; you're simply the western counterparts of jihadists. I mean you seriously must hate to a) set up a website which misinforms so much, its amazing, b) take the time to join discussion board and rant and c) be incapable of accepting another persons beliefs or even that they are humans who are complex enough to have opinions based on something other than their religion.

The only difference between you and any terrorist is the banner you carry, you're all scum. Some use religion, some use nationalism and other 'us and them' ploys. However, Americans need to bear in mind, you class those amongst you who are extreme as extreme but due to a small number of Muslims, you class all Muslims and Islam as extreme, murderous and oppressive.

To every reasonable person on this forum, this is what we as the people of this planet have to contend with. Doesn't matter where they come from or what religion they claim. All they do is hate and come up with more ways to be divisive. Don't fall for it.

Muslims are here to stay and if you want to keep the impression that you are informed about Islam, remember non believers are classified as idol worshipers and not Christians and Jews, suicide and murder is a major sin and women have as much rights as men. It's the culture which has chosen to ignore women's rights, modern political situation have resulted in suicide bombers with some people condoning and not the Quran.

Wow, anyone still reading these posts?

As a constituent of Congressman Ellison in Minnesota's 5th Congressional District, let me first say thank you to all the well wishers for their kind words and encouragement expressed for Keith Ellison.

For the record, Keith is a self-described "moderate Muslim." He's pro-choice; in favor of marriage equality for our GLBT brothers and sisters; pro-Labor rights, pro-Free Trade, and against the death penalty. Stop me when this starts to sound like some kind of radical religious agenda!

I know Keith personally, helped him get elected, watched the amazing coalition build around him during the campaign: people of different faiths & ethnicities; labor, environmental, and GLBT groups; new immigrants and senior citizens; rich and poor, etc. He took Minnesota by storm because he articulated of vision of unity and inclusiveness that the 5th District (and our nation) needed more than ever.

Keith won the election because he spoke up against an immoral war in Iraq ("peace must be the guiding principle of our nation"), because he believes that working people deserve a living wage and affordable health care ("everyone counts & everybody matters"); and because he practices the "politics of Hope, not Fear."

To those who worry about the symbolic swearing in ceremony using the Qur'an, please remember that no words were actually uttered in oath - it was a photo op. Keith, like all of the U.S. Congress are actually sworn in on the floor of the U.S. House of Representatives, and in that OFFICIAL ceremony they swear to up hold the U.S. Constitution (still one of the greatest legal document/work in progress in the history of humanity). So relax: his heart is pure, his mind is clear, and his devotion to the Constitution is pre-eminent.

To my fellow friends in the Progressive community in the U.S., I can only say that Minnesota has once again brought a kind, decent, gentle Old Soul to Washington. And just like Paul Wellstone, we are willing to share him with the rest of the nation. Take care of him, pray for him if that is your way, keep him in your thoughts. Because it's been an amazing and rigorous road he's traveled, even though he's just getting started. But he's going to give you everthing he's got, and that is his true gift to our country.

From Jihad Watch:

An undercover investigation has revealed disturbing evidence of Islamic extremism at a number of Britain's leading mosques and Muslim institutions, including an organisation praised by the Prime Minister.

Secret video footage reveals Muslim preachers exhorting followers to prepare for jihad, to hit girls for not wearing the hijab, and to create a 'state within a state'. Many of the preachers are linked to the Wahhabi strain of Islam practised in Saudi Arabia, which funds a number of Britain's leading Islamic institutions.

A forthcoming Channel 4 Dispatches programme paints an alarming picture of how preachers in some of Britain's most moderate mosques are urging followers to reject British laws in favour of those of Islam. Leaders of the mosques have expressed concern at the preachers' activities, saying they were unaware such views were being disseminated.

At the Sparkbrook mosque, run by UK Islamic Mission (UKIM), an organisation that maintains 45 mosques in Britain and which Tony Blair has said 'is extremely valued by the government for its multi-faith and multicultural activities', a preacher is captured on film praising the Taliban. In response to the news that a British Muslim solider was killed fighting the Taliban, the speaker declares: 'The hero of Islam is the one who separated his head from his shoulders.'

Another speaker says Muslims cannot accept the rule of non-Muslims. 'You cannot accept the rule of the kaffir [non-Muslim],' a preacher, Dr Ijaz Mian, tells a meeting held within the mosque. 'We have to rule ourselves and we have to rule the others.'

Yet more examples of officially declared (by blind, apologist idiots like you lot on here) moderate Muslims!

Know that America's so called moderate mosques and so called moderate Muslim insititutions are all exactly the same!

Islam has no place in The West. It is a political, extremist,anti-democracy death cult.

@ Gaby

Well said!

Congressman Ellison,

You sound like a very nice man and wish you all the best.

But, what I wish most for is that you and every other member of Congress leave you faiths behind when you step into your office and start to legislate. Do your best to represent your constituency being influenzed ony by the Constitution, the Law, and the well-bing of America.

Religion has no place in legislation.

Representative Ellison, I am a nontheist who happily (and hopefully) voted for you, who was thrilled by your victory, and who supports everything you have said and done so far as our congressional representative. I don't expect to always support every single thing you do, as reasonable people can differ; but if you continue on the path of integrity and caring that you have started on, I will always support you.

Hello from the 5th District. I was proud to vote for you, and I'm proud to be represented by you. Thanks for the excellent editorial.

Congressman Ellison,

What a wonderful statement! I'm liking you more and more. You are already becoming the moral voice of the new Congress. Congratulations on your election; I look forward to hearing much more for you over the next few decades! Best,

-- Joel Bloom
Albany, NY

Your words are wise and compassionate, Rep. Ellison. Born into a Christian family, when I grew up I studied all of the major religions. I found that the same spirit informed them all. The messages of compassion and brotherly love were common threads among them.

These messages have clearly been lost to many who call themselves religious. I'm confident that one day they will be heard. Thank you for speaking to make that day arrive sooner rather than later. Like you, I'm firmly convinced that the modern world has the resources to eliminate poverty, and only lacks the will. The money we've spent on Iraq alone would provide for years of medical coverage for 40 million Americans.

Best wishes for your service to our country.

From the look of this forum and other forums, apparently most of you dont.

> If I meet an American, I do not hate, I do not make them feel like an enemy, I treat them like
> anyone else. Why can't you Americans do the same?

Some of us do that already.

I am not American, but for the life of me, I cannot understand how the country of Martin Luther King, the country which espouses liberty and justice for all and the land in which there is supposed to be freedom of religion. People are judging this man before he has done anything in his post just because he's a Muslim.

The only logical conclusion I have arrived to is that America is the land of hypocrisy. Your country has had a hand in the deaths of 600,000 innocent people in Iraq, and has the balls to judge a religion on the basis that some of the people who claim to be Muslims are nuts and murderous. Well stop being hypocrites and adhere to your constitution.

All religions have had murderous elements in their communities. And all ideologies and religions would look crazy if all you do is misquote their texts and state their atrocities out of context or analysis because you want to paint them as killers.

You want find killers; look at your own backyard. From:
1. Gulf of Tonkin
2. Agent Orange
3. Vietnam
4. Cambodia
6. Too many South American countries to list

Providing support for dictators and placing them in power:
1. Uzbeckstan
2. Iran thru the Shah
3. Iraq
4. Saudi Arabia
5. Chile
7. Indonesia

Causing famine through the IMF's Structual Adjustment Program and the WTO.

Basically this is all just the tip of the iceberg. I could go on forever.

My point is nothing is good or even decent when a person only presents what they want to. Almost anything can look evil. But life more complicated then that.

Americans to need:

1. Judge people on their character and not their religion, color or anything else.

2. Stop making neat little catagories for everything to in fit into and take the time to appreciate the comlexity of things.

3. Value all human beings lives are equal to their own, anyone getting killed is just as bad as an American getting killed.

4. Get a free and open media.

5. Educate yourselves about other people.

And when people people state their hatred for America, 9 out of 10 times, they hate your government and not you the people. They hate what your government has done to them. It as nothing to do with Islam, the American government doesn't have alot of fans.

If I meet an American, I do not hate, I do not make them feel like an enemy, I treat them like anyone else. Why can't you Americans do the same?

Dear Rep. Ellison

I am so proud of the honorable way you conducted yourself throughout this personal attack. I am so pleased to know we have you in our party. As a former "Independent", you are the very quality that makes the Democratic Party shine so brightly!

ive been refused jobs- housing- had my license illegally suspended for 3 years- and more- all because im a muslim- id say that is a little more pressing need than a cab ride when theres another cab a phone call or block away- but i dont make anything of it- i certainly dont go crying about it
maybe theyre exreme or misinformed- but if they feel they are taking on a sin by doing it should we force soemone to sin against their soul? for a cab ride?
it seems like an awfully silly thing to complain about- cabdrivers HAVE THE RIGHT to refuse service to someone- read the rights of the passenger and the driver posted on the back seat of every cab-

that someone took the time to complain about such small issue- is mind boggling the things peope find to be upset about-

would you take your pet pig into a kosher store?
and call it discrimination because someone had their shih tzu in there?

theres cabs everywhere- and a driver that would refuse service to someone in an emergency for religious reasons isnt acting with religious muslim precepts so their religion is invalidated as a reason for refusla- but otherwise- it sure is silly

also there are plenty of dogs all over the middle east- youmust have misunderstood- the only thing about dogs is that theyre unclean in the home-(or close confines of a cab where a cabdriver lives 12 hours a day) and their spit invalidate wudu- or the ablution cleansing necessary to approach ALLAH in prayer-

and id say that going and killing iraqis is a bit more than mere 'intolerance' we are expressing towards them

also fyi- cabs arent public transportation but privately owned and privately leased vehicles regulated by public transportation

Today we are on the verge of our President sending 20,000 more American soldiers into Iraq with no attainable goals and objectives.

3,000 American soldiers have lost their lives in an unconstitutional, illegal, preemptive war fought on fraudulent premises. The needless slaughter of American soldiers continues unabated. There is no exit strategy. There are only platitudes: "Finish the Job" (what's the job?) "Don't 'cut and run'" "Stay the course," etc ad infinitum.

Many of our wonderful soldiers are on their second and third deployments and putting themselves in harm's way for an unappreciative population who disdain our lifestyle and are totally intolerant of our culture.

We have spent over 400 Billion of borrowed dollars and mortgaged our grandchildren's future for these people who only want to be left in the Medieval ages.

In Minneapolis Muslim cab drivers refuse to carry passengers who have alcohol (even unopened) and/or have a pet dog, including seeing-eye dogs, because it is against their religion. They must not have dogs in the Middle East. Excuse me, you are operating a public transportation vehicle and serving the public. Now serve the public and quit discriminating!!! It's against our Law. What if a cab driver refused to drive a Muslim?

I don't care what you choose to place your hand on to be sworn in. It is none of my or anyone else's business. You DO swear to uphold the Constitution. Now read it and do your job.
Remember only Congress can declare War.
Discrimination is against the law.
Respect ALL religions. Do not impose any religion on others. Be tolerant of people whose views you disagree with.

PRAY FOR PEACE.

I am a Muslim American. Love this country, born and raised here. I can not believe how ignorant people can be. I believe in God, and his last messenger Mohamed Peace be upon him.

As a minnesotan, I Voted for you Rep. Ellison and I wish you all the luck possible, MAY YOU DEAL WITH LESS IGNORANT PEOPLE.
May Allah be with you.
we seriously need to consider Islam educational classes because obviously, some of us don't know how to pick up a book and read.

and if you do condemn them the same way you are condeming the extremist muslims, do you paint all christians and jews with the same extremist and war mongering brush?

fact is, the problem in the world today is that extremists have all the power. thank God (the God that I believe we all share) things are start to move in a different direction.

btw anonymous, what do you think of the christians who feel that they are on a mission from God, who started the war in Iraq which has killed according to some, over 600k iraqi civilians?

you seem to be focused on the horrible so called muslims who slaughter people through extremist and terrorist acts, but what do you think of the judeo christian element of our current government who started their war of choice in iraq? do you condemn them loudly considering the crimes against humanity, both iraqi and american, that they've committed?

Victoria,

See page 93 of "The Wisdom of Muhammad" by Allama Sir Abdullah Al-Mamun Al-Suhrawardy published by Citadel Press.

The book was originally published decades ago and was republished in 2001.

FERN- would you share where you got that prophecy?
peace

ANONYMOUS thats the beauty of the whole thing-

nobody has to blow anybody up

this is America and you are free to worship or not as you choose
and i am free to worship as i choose

you are safe from any worry from me ANON

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW!!!!

this land is your land, this land is my land
---this land was made for you and me

its a big country anon
dont worry dude(ette)

peace

MIKE-The simplicity and smallness of your mind, indeed, the mind of anybody who thinks 'a faith', that is, something as enormous, complex and diverse as a major world religion, can be summed up as nothing more than a unified movement to kill Americans, is difficult to grasp. One of the great tragedies of the United States today is that this nation can be so rich yet still produce such ignorance when we have the resources to provide the best education in the world. This is yet another reason why I-a progressive minded, freethinking and thoroughly un-religious American-voted for Keith Ellison. I believe in my heart that elected officials like him will help guide our country out of the darkness of the right-wing class war that is currently screwing almost all of us over, no matter what our religion or political leaning. Thank you Keith Ellison and never give up the good fight! We're in your corner, even the atheists among us.

AMIN

TO KEITH ELLISON.. WE GIVE YOU OUR VOTE TO PULL OUT THE TROOPS OUT OF IRAQ.. AND STOP THE WAR IN DA WORLD..AS MUSLIM WE ARE PROUD OF YOU THE WAY THAT U SWEAR UR RELIGION AND U DIDNT DISGRACE.. NO MATTER WAT PEOPLE SAYS... HELP UR COUNTRY... AND OTHERS... LOVE AND MY ALLAH BLESSS YOU

Brother Keith, don't let anything stop you, for you are a portrait of what it means to be a just American.

A Friend

---furthermore my allegiances and loyalties are MY OWN BUSINESS- NOT YOURS---

Until you try to blow me, my family and my country up because your Islamic allegiance is your first loyalty. I think I see what you are.

And know, Victoria, *I* won't submit myself or my country to your fetid religious death cult without a fight.
Count on that.

Ex-Muslm:
You removed the (vital) rest of my sentence. Ellsion, via his swearing on the Qu'ran and the content of his speeches to hardline Muslim groups shows he does not fit my description at all.

How we blindly skip to our doom in the name of fear, stupidity, political correctness and a weak will.

You all have the DOCUMENTED FACTS in my above posts.
You have the ACTUAL EVENTS (and comaprisons) in the World listed in my posts (all of which i see...indeed I offered up the challenge...you have all failed to counter) and if you are still blind and foolish then all I can do is wish America good luck.
It's going to (like all the free Western world) need it!

well what about me anonymous?

my grat time 8 grandfather was the first senator of pennsylvania- my other great something grand daddy was john harris which trhe capital of pennsylvania

my dear mom was the first female union steward in her union for 20 years my uncle founded and owns one of the largest marketing firms in america
my relatives have served and fought in every war this country has been in- my dad was in korea-
i myself have worked for 30 years taking care of seniors- para-quadriplegics cerebral palsy and people with aids- volunteered at the Disabled American Veterans for 3 years- ran 2 different homeless feeding programs where i also did the cooking!

so mr or miss anonymous who hides behind anonimity afraid to come out to the light of truth and day-

where exactly do you suggest i go?
IM A MUSLIM AND PROUD OF IT as will be my childrens childrens children

and you can be really assured
im politically active
im vocal
AND IM NOT GOING ANYWHERE!!!!

furthermore my allegiances and loyalties are MY OWN BUSINESS- NOT YOURS

since you like to judge-what are your allegiances?
ahould we put out of office anyone who has allegiance to Jesus(ata) first?
how about george dubya?
(of course he thinks Jesus(ata) is his favorite philosopher)

also- im irish and i love to fight

and nobody- i mean NOBODY is getting rid of me!

I think a lot of this debate can be spared if everybody does a bit of homework. For example, there is a lot of talk about Islam by people who probably have not read any book about Islam by a Muslim scholar!!! I mean, would it be fair to formulate an opinion about Christianity just by reading books by non-Christians? It's like a judge who gives a judgment after listening to just one side!! Then, we talk about some countries overseas while we've never been over there. We only know what CNN or Fox News tells us! Imagine if someone wanted to know about the U.S. and he is never been here. He watches the news and all he sees is the serial killers and the rapists and the child mollasters?

Come-on, let's have some common sense. Some of us are speaking as if they are the experst in world religions and affairs. It's obvious that such people are just swallowing the propaganda they're being fed everyday. It's fine if you want to do that, but don't come out and start preaching others about world religions/politics as if you undestand it all.

Fair enough, anonymous. You say:

- Muslims in non-Islamic countries who swear to put their religion completely secondary to their country and their people... are welcome.

That brings us to the start of this thread. What, in Rep. Ellison's record shows you he is anything but a loyal and patriotic American- albeit a Muslim?

And, does the same criteria apply to other religious minorities, or you will tell us which ones are especially under the microscope?

---the logical course of action for you is to destroy Islam and Muslims, right?---

No. Because unlike Islam and Muslims I do not feel the need to kill for the holy glory of it.

Islam should stay in Islamic countries.
And the many, many, many atrocities there are the problems of Muslims, who either learn to evolve their cultures or live with the rapes, murders and executions.
I care not one bit. It's up to them. They have a choice...just like how they had a choice in Iraq when Saddam was gone.

Muslims in non-Islamic countries who swear to put their religion completely secondary to their country and their people, who respect the non-Islamic culture and laws of their country and who reject ALL of Islam's many backwards and barbaric practices that have no place in The West in the 21st century (and who disagree with Sharia Law ever having a place in non-Islamic countries) are welcome.

But that would obviously mean that the truly devout and fully practicing Muslims have no place in The West (and why would they want a place there anyway, given their obvious and well-known prejudices and backwards outlook on an evolved Western society that they see as infidel?) and they can feel free to go to an Islamic country that does follow their backwards thinking.

And just to be fair...if ANY members of ANY religion wish to put that religion first before anything else and who wish to carry on and embrace 'holy' prejudices in a country that rejects such things, they too can leave.
If your Catholic/Baptist homophobia is more important to you than equal rights for everyone, including Gays, you can hop onto a plane and see if The Pope or Jerry Falwell will put you up.

You see? You can keep your fantasy religions (shorn of course of all the barbarity) if you wish, but you keep them in your home and places of worship and nowhere else.
And the day you can't do that...BYE BYE. You won't be missed.

i was not aware that rep ellison used thomas jeffersons copy of the Qur'an- i think it is a beautiful thing that it was brought out of the dust where it sad dise by side with the bible all these years- - most people will say, jefferson had a quran?
what for? and then study and realize that our founding fathers relied on a variety of different philosophies and religions in the formation of our constitution- its kind of symbolic like a new american awareness- it really indisputably allows american muslims to point to their own book and say- it is part and parcel of our amercian heritage-
peace

> THE REALITY OF ISLAM is all that matters.

The reality also includes millions of Muslims who reject evil. It's not Islam that is evil but what men often make of Islam that is evil.

Any who truly seek God are my brothers and sisters no matter what their faith. Any Muslim who seeks the light is my friend. Any Muslim man who truly respects women and offers her his encouragement to be educated and take her place in society at her highest potential is my brother.

On the other hand may God show the error of his ways to anyone, Muslim or not, who exalts hatred and evil. I pray that such people turn from darkness and embrace the light. But if they do not, then my duty is to reject their path, by force if necessary.

May God help us all to choose wisely in this dark hour.

---So what's your point Anonymous?---

My pointS show others that the laughable propaganda people like you spread about Islam is indeed just so many lies.

If you wish to prove my above posts and their points wrong please do so. But you can't can you.
Because you see, my apologist little schemer, they are all well known, well documented facts and events.
recent and CURRENT events.

And yes, even the backwards, rabid dog religions like Catholicism have evolved and moderated in a way that the barbaric Islam has not.

Like I said...
No women are stoned, no homosexuals hung, no converts executed, no machine gun wielding religious leaders call for murder, no teachers are butchered and no women are raped or shot for daring to hold down a job in the Vatican, outside the Houses of Parliment, or outside the White House.
Yet all these things happen routinely, on a socially and often legally accepted scale (and often with full State knowledge) in 2007 wherever Islam holds sway.

Like it or not...even in this multi-religion mire we see growing around the world...Islam is indeed unique in all it's fetid barbarity.

Hell, no one died, despite all the Christian smoke and fury, over "The Life of Brian" and no Monty Python member had to go into hiding for their life.
Even when Sinead O' Connor tore up The Pope's photo no one died, no embassies burnt, no world wide riots were seen and no one hacked up Ms O'Connor in the street.

You see...even when you compare one lot of easily offended religious nutters to another Muslims are horribly in a whole league of their own when it comes to hate and intolerence.

I'm sure you're proud.

So what's your point Anonymous?

Since you are a bit dense for discussions, the logical course of action for you is to destroy Islam and Muslims, right?

How are you going to do that? Nuke 'em?

The greatest sin is to make a partner with God-Almighty, while He alone created you.

He gave you hearing, sight, and hearts.

Can anyone be more ungrateful?

----he difference between the beauty of Islam in theory and how it is practiced is sadly wide.----

And for the people behind the sword blade, in front of the gun, next to the bomb and fighting for thie life and liberty in court THE REALITY OF ISLAM is all that matters.

In fact it is the ONLY thing that matters!!
To people with any sense that is (or with just a sense of freedom, justice and of a need to see society evolving out of the dark blooded past that Islam, in all it's forms all over the world, embraces with such a passion)

> What a shame that NEVER happens in practice.

Absolutist thinking is wrong and not helpful. The difference between the beauty of Islam in theory and how it is practiced is sadly wide. This was, in fact predicted by Muhammad. So what you are others identify is the fulfillment of his prophecy. He said:

"The time is near in which nothing will remain of Islam but its name, and
of the Quran but its mere appearance, and the mosques of Muslims will be
destitute of knowledge and worship; and the learned men will be the worst
people under the heavens; and contention and strife will issue from them,
and it will return upon themselves."

----Muslims are now at the front of bigotry in the west----

Well think why that has happened (though I call it justified suspicion actually!!) before you whine.

Do you think it is bcause Muslims brought this on themselves.....

By 9/11.

By celebrating 9/11 in the streets, including European streets.

By putting death threats on cartoonists and by threatening death and destruction and burning embassies (which ended with 50 people dead) over a few cartoons.

By blowing up trains in Spain.

By blowing up nightclubs in Bali.

Vy blowing up trains in India.

By blowing up trains and a bus in london via suicide bombing..a first in British history!
By calling for Sharia Law in non-Islamic countries.

By threatening to kill The Pope, head of the Catholic Church, after he linked Islam with violence (THE IRONY!)

By crusading through Africa with brutal execution and mass rape.

By plotting the largest (and most innocent aimed) terrorist plots The West has ever seen...of which many have seen specific charges brought by those believed to be involved. The UK Courts are literally swamped with Muslim terrorists and their cases!

By hacking up a Dutch film director in his own country because of a film he made criticising the (TRUTHFUL) injustices shown to women in Islam and by making the women author of the film go into hiding for her life.

By hacking to bits (often in front of their pupils) teachers in Afghanistan who dare to educate girls.

By raping and murdering women who hold professional jobs in Iraq.

By blowing holes in the back of a 70 year old Nun.

And I could of course go on and on and on....
And none of this is ancient history, none of this is centuries old...IT'S RECENT AND *NOW*.

And yes The Bible may say dubious things, but it does not say to spread Christianity by sword and to slay those who do not convert.
Also the dodgy Bible teachings have for the VAST VAST majority of Christians been long ignored.
Unlike Islam, where a VAST VAST number of Muslims still hold the most hardline of texts as sacred and specifically carry out GLOBAL acts of Jihad based on them.
And yes, those texts do exist despite the lies of islamists who always (very handy this) say that those portions of the Qu'ran and other teachings just happen to be mis-translated!
Evrything else is okay...just those nasty bits are mis-translated!! What a coincidence!

Islam (even compared to Catholic, Anglican, Hindu or Baptist heavy countries) is unique in it's desire to cling to the most dark-ages based doctines and cultural rules.

Women are not stoned to death in the Vatican courtyards.

Homosexuals are not hung in Trafalger Square.

Converts are not executed in Times Square.

Nothing, on a vast cultural, legal and State level, compares to the barbarity and socially acceptable injustice that Islamic based regimes (and often Muslim communities in non-Islamic countries) embrace.
As does Ellison!

And the first thing the peaceful, crusading, Islamists did in Somalia when they took power was to shoot 2 people for watching the World Cup and break up a couple of weddings for playing forbidden music.

What a jolly (and utterly unique) religion Islam is.

----his is because these people are promised to live peacefully and be protected under Islamic law---

What a shame that NEVER happens in practice.

As the many burnt churches, dead Nuns, dead converts, utterly outlawed other religions (see good old Saudi) and the many Christian dead (and the 270 million still at risk)could testify too.

A little note about the origin of the word "Islam".

In the Arabic language, there are levels of derivations. So yes, the word Islam comes from the word "Asalama" which means to submit, in the first level of derivation. But, in the second level of derivation, the word Islam comes from the word "Salima" which means to be safe and peaceful. In fact, the Quran uses the word "Silm" which literally means peace interchangeably with the word Islam. For example, "Oh you who believe enter into 'Silm' in totality" [2:208]. So, this verse is asking believers to enter embrace Islam in totality, but uses the word Silm which means peace.

I don't see any problem with fully submitting to God. In fact, this is a sign of a true religion. Who else are we supposed to submit ourselves to? I believe ALL Prophets preached the same concept. That we become slaves, by choice, to the One God. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Israel mean the slave of God?

For those who love to quote/misquote Islamic text, here are some quotes that most likely won't be found on a typical Islamophobic website. Since I know Arabic, I'm taking this from original sources, so no need to waste your time googling my quotes :)

Before I start, I want to note that Allah and God means the same thing (Allah = al-Ilaah = the God), for those who think that Allah is some kind of idol that the Muslims worship! So I will use the two words interchangeably.

There are two verses in the Quran which define the general rule for Muslims dealing with non-Muslims.

"God does not forbid you from those that did not fight you in the name of religion and did not expel you from your homes that you show all kinds of good/kindness to them and that you are just with them for God loves the just ones. Rather, God forbids you from those who faught you in the name of religion, expelled you from your homes, and they conspired in order to expel you, that you become friends with them, and whoever takes them as friends then he is from the unjust ones" [Quran:60:8,9].

The Quran usually refers to Jews and Christian as People of the Book. This is to recognize that these religions are based on truth, on revealed books. It is also to remind the Muslims that they have something in common with these two other religions, they all received revelation from God. Yes, the Quran does have some points of contention with _some_ of the People of the Book, usually for a specifc act/concept they invented, such as trinity or claiming that God has a son, etc.

The Quran urges the Muslims that if they argue with the People of the Book, they should argue in good manners so not to cause enmity and hatred:
"And do not argue with the People of the Book except in a good manner, except for those who are unjust among them, and say we believe in what was revealed to us and was revealed to you and our God and your God is one and we are Muslims [submitters] unto Him" [Quran:29:46]

A Muslim cannot be a Muslim until and unless he/she believes in ALL Prophets [e.g. Moses and Jesus] and ALL scriptures [Torah/Gospel]. But, when it comes to applying the law, a Muslim has to apply the law prescribed in the Quran and the Sunnah [statements/actions of the Prophet]. But Islam makes it clear that if one believed in Muhammad, but did not believe in Moses or Jesus, that he/she has not entered the fold of Islam.

The People of Dhimma
Dhimmies, or the People of Dhimmas, are Jews and Christians who live under Islamic government. Unlike what many people think, Dhimma is not a derogatory term at all. In fact, the word Dhimma means promise. This is because these people are promised to live peacefully and be protected under Islamic law. In fact, Prophet Muhammad made this very clear in his Hadeeth [Prophetic statements]:
1. "Whoever harms a Dhimmi, then he has harmed me. Whoever harmed me, then he has harmed God" [Tabarani]
2. "Whoever harms a Dhimmi then I will be his opponent. Whoever I'm his opponent, I will defeat him on the Day of Judgment" [al-Khateeb].
3. "Whoever oppresses a person of contract [Dhimmi], or he takes some of his rights, or overburden him, or takes something from him without consent, then I will be his opponent on the Day of Judgment" [Abu Dawud].
The Muslims scholars expounded on these rules. For example, al-Qarafi, a Maliki [one branch of Islamic law] scholar said, "The contract of Dhimma necessitates responsibilities upon us because they [Jews and Christians] are in our protection, our promise, the promise of God, the promise of his Prophet, and the religion of Islam. So whoever attacks them even by an evil word, backbiting their honor, or any kind of harm, or he assisted in such, then he has forsaken the promise of God, His Prophet, and the religion of Islam" [al-Furooq]. Ibn Hazm, a Dhahiri [another branch of Islamic law] scholar, said, "If someone was under Dhimma law, and the enemy came to our land looking after him, then it becomes obligatory upon us that we come out and fight them and that we die before they get to him. This is to protect the person who is in the protection of God and His Messenger. To turn him to his enemy is negligence of the contract of Dhimma" [Maraatib al-Ijmaa'].

your tendency to edit out such pertinent and contradictory information in order to make your point stick- you assert that it doesnt mean peace-
it clearly does-

rather casts some shadow on any other editorial pursuits you may have taken liberty with in your
post.

here are your words robin

First of all, “Islam” means submission, not peace. The Arabic word, “islâm” is submission; from; “aslama”- to surrender, resign oneself; from the Syriac, “aðlem” - to surrender; from the stem “ðlem”- to be complete.

looks like you took it from the same site as me-
you just chose to remove the word that offended you- and then claim it didnt exist

how can we trust your posts now?

TO: Robin - Posted January 6, 2007 1:28 AM

The terrorists practice the fundamentalist form of Islam: Salafism.

This teaching has found its way into Europe, too.

Your posting is very eye-opening, especially the fact that the fundamentalist terrorists are the true followers of Islam. Thank you.

HERES A THOUGHT- JUST LOOK AT A DICTIONARY

Related Topics

* Nation of Islam

Is·lam (ĭs-läm', ĭz-, ĭs'läm', ĭz'-) pronunciation
n.

1. A monotheistic religion characterized by the acceptance of the doctrine of submission to God and to Muhammad as the chief and last prophet of God.
2.
1. The people or nations that practice Islam; the Muslim world.
2. The civilization developed by the Muslim world.

[Arabic ’islām, submission, from ’aslama, to surrender, resign oneself, from Syriac ’ašlem, to make peace, surrender, derived stem of šlem, to be complete.]
Islamic Is·lam'ic adj.

OK? SYRIAC ASLEM- TO MAKE PEACE

CLEAR ENOUGH?

GOOD

----Don’t you know they burned the great Alexandria library.---

You obviously don't know your own supposed history!
The Alexandria library was burnt ny the Muslims!

And at the Hajj Muslims called the 'Stan' that was beinf stoned "America". Oh yes...they showed their hate towards America in thier typically holy way.

Robin

Can you read Arabic, is this first hand information you obtained from researching? No

You keep quoting texts and call Mohamed a pedophile but the fact remain that your evidence is severely incorrect.

I can find a book on anything saying anything I'd like to hear about any religion. Placing credence over a book writen by someone with clear bias and heatred for islam is simply childish.

Despite what you think or post, Muslims have their beliefs. Some might do and anything things that don't personally agree with but is it really my place to comment? So some don't want to drive dogs in their taxis as someone complained a few posts ago.

Do you really hold the moral ground? Are you perfect? NO!

You demonstrate the kind of hatred that could easily result in terrorism within a few generations. How do think Muslims who know that it's a cardinal to kill innocent people and commit suicide do so? Hatred can only escalate until it is stopped.

Blind hatred is never the answer to anything, hating Muslims or insulting their religion will never result in anything positive.

If Islam was spread by the sword, why are there indigenous Christian communities in historically Muslim places i.e. the Coptic in Egypt and Orthodox in the Sham Region? But what happened to all the Muslims and even Jews in Spain and Sicily?

Religion is just doctrine which some adhere to and some exploit. Christian, Jews or any other religion is no better. Evil people live within all communities and their actions should not reflect on their religion but rather their characters.

I am a muslim, hate me all you want. I won't hate you back and my religion teaches me so. I just think your hatred is sad and demonstrates your bias and ignorance.

When Representative-elect Keith Ellison responded to Wolf Blitzer’s question (on CNN) concerning Representative Virgil Goode’s negative comments, with the statement, “I think he has a lot to learn about Islam!” … I, too, realized I needed to
Learn more about Islam:

It was Prophet Muhammad who said, "Whoever sees an abomination must straighten it with his hands." Saddam Hussein repeated and relied upon this saying in his attack on Kuwait's ruling family. The Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt depended upon this saying when they killed Anwar El Sadat. We must never imagine that such Muslims are being unnecessarily wicked …They are simply being faithful to their religion!

From the President, to most religious leaders, to the average talk radio program, we are being told that Islam is a peaceful religion. It is said that bin Laden and the Taliban only represent an extremely radical Muslim fringe, which is not representative of true Islam.

THIS IS NOT TRUE!

First of all, “Islam” means submission, not peace. The Arabic word, “islâm” is submission; from; “aslama”- to surrender, resign oneself; from the Syriac, “aðlem” - to surrender; from the stem “ðlem”- to be complete.

This does not imply voluntary submission but includes a forced submission where the subjects will not comply. Historically Islam is not known for its peace movements, but for a uniquely Arab word, "jihad," which means an offensive war intended to lead to the conversion of the infidel to Islam, or to his annihilation!

Islam in the Arabic language and in the Qa'ran/Koran means total submission and obedience. However, the original meaning of "Islam" in the Arabic language is the acceptance of a view or a condition which was not previously accepted, that is the readiness of a person to take orders from god and to follow them. "Muslim" is a word taken from the word Islam, and applies to that person, who is ready to take orders from god and follow him without question.

“Do they seek a deen other than the deen of Allah and to him all what is in the skies and in the earth have submitted willingly or forcefully and to Him they shall return. [Qur’an 3:83]”

The word “Islam” was used in the Qur’an as a symbol for the word “deen,” revealed by the Prophet Muhammad. Prophet Muhammad stated that his teachings contain the teachings of all the previous prophets, and all divine commandments. When a person professes the belief in the truthfulness of Prophet Muhammad, and pledges to follow his message, he, in fact, stating his readiness to obey the orders of god unconditionally.

From the Koran/Qur’an ("An English Interpretation of the Holy Quran with Full Arabic Text," A. Yusuf Ali), “The deen [religion] before Allah is Islam. [Qur’an 3:19]. Whosoever seeks, other than Islam, a deen, it will not be accepted from him and he, in the Hereafter, is among the losers. [Qur’an 3:85].”

The concept of “deen” involves four principles: 1) Subjugation, authority, and ruling; 2) Obedience and submission due to subjugation; 3) The method and the habit; and 4) Punishment, reward and judgment. Therefore, “deen” implies a comprehensive system of life that is composed of four parts: 1) The ruler ship and the authority belong to Allah only; 2) The obedience and submission are to Allah; 3) The comprehensive system (intellectual and practical) is established by this authority; and 4) The reward given by this authority (Allah) to those who followed the system and submitted to him and the punishment inflicted upon those who rebel against it and disobey it. Prophet Muhammad said: “Every human being is born in a state of pure nature; but through the influence of his parents, he may become non-Muslim." Islam is a “divine” system, and with it Allah sealed all other religions, and made it a comprehensive system dealing with all aspects of human life (belief, intellectual, moral, and practical). This system is based on total submission to Allah alone, purifying worship to him only, and following the traditions (sunnah) of Prophet Muhammad.

Therefore, when you hear people saying that Islam is a peaceful religion, know rather, that Islam is fighting a holy war for control of the world! That war was begun by Prophet Mohammed himself in the seventh century, and is still being carried on today by his followers through terrorism. These terrorists are not radicals or extremists, as the media continually labels them. Rather, these are Islamic fundamentalists who are true to their religion and the teachings of the Qu’ran, and who are following faithfully in the footsteps of the Prophet, Mohammed.

As Abd El Schafi has said in his book (Behind The Veil: Unmasking Islam), “We must never imagine that such Muslims are being unnecessarily wicked. They are simply being faithful to their religion. The fact is never hidden as to what the proper attitude a good Muslim should have towards Christians and Jews. In fact, much of the incitement to violence and war in the whole of the Qu’ran is directed specifically against Jews/Christians who rejected what they felt to be the strange "god" that Prophet Mohammed was trying to preach. Prophet Muhammad and his successors initiated offensive wars against peaceful countries in order to impose Islam by force as well as to seize the abundance of these lands.” So, Islam was imposed upon Syria, Jordan, Palestine (Jerusalem), Egypt, Libya, Iraq, Iran, all of North Africa, some parts of India and China, and later Spain. So, it appears the “radical” fundamentalists are closer to historic Islam than those who profess to be followers of so-called “mainstream” version. Islam has always been, and continues to be a religion (a way of life) spread by force, not through peaceful means or persuasion.

Islam was planted by Prophet Muhammad with the sword, not a philosophy or ethic of peace. It’s rather astonishing to learn just how cruel and brutal Prophet Muhammad was as he tortured his captives with fire, then killed them and took their wives as bond maids for himself, as well as for his companions. Following his death, these brothers-in-arms then fought each other in relentless, savage wars; competing for authority and out of deeply rooted hatred, Prophet Muhammad's relatives and closest friends sacrificed and slaughtered each other!

No wonder we see Moslems, these days, fighting with each other. In fact, these wars and hostilities spring from the very heart of the Islamic teachings, since it calls for the use of force to combat "wrongdoing," ... just as Prophet Muhammad's relatives did with one another! It was Muhammad who said, "Whoever sees an abomination must straighten it with his hands." Thus, Saddam Hussein repeated and relied upon this saying of Muhammad in his attack on Kuwait's ruling family; and the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt depended upon this saying when they killed Anwar El Sadat (a real man of peace).

Therefore, when you hear people saying that Islam is a peaceful religion, know rather that Islam is fighting a holy war for control of the world! That is, the concept of an offensive war, to spread the faith, is a genuine Islamic concept; known as a Holy War for the sake of god. This, not peace, is the essence of Islam! That is, if there were sufficient military power available to Islamic countries, they would attack all other countries in order to force them to embrace Islam. The Qu’ran is the authoritative scripture for the Muslim, and here are a few quotes advocating this militancy toward the non-Muslim:

#1) But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them. And seize them, beleaguer them. Lie in wait for the in every stratagem of war; but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Surah 9:5)

#2) Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, even if they are of the people of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with will submission, and feel themselves subdued. (Surah 9:29)

#3) Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive and struggle with your goods and your persons, in the Cause of Allah. (Surah 9:41)

#4) The infidel is to be "killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land, and in the hereafter theirs will be an awful doom. (Surah 5:33)

#5) Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth no aggressors. And slay them wherever you find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out. But if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving, merciful. (Surah 2:190-92)

#6) Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day. Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah. ( Surah 2:29, 41)

#7) Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who reject the faith do battle for the cause of evil. So fight ye against the friends of Satan. (Surah 4:76)

Prophet Muhammad founded Islam with the sword; his followers maintained Islamic rule with the sword; subsequent generations have always spread Islam's oppressive rule beyond the Arabian Peninsula with the sword. One cannot be a true follower of Islam without holding to the tenants of the Qu’ran, which also advocates forced submission to its rule. How can anyone who knows anything about Islam deny this? Why are so many, today, inclined to believe that Islam is a peaceful religion and not a militant movement, which desires to conquer the world through Jihad?

Obviously there are political motives behind the President and his administration that have given rise to their many statements that Islam is a peaceful religion. Yet such is simply not the case. If Islamic terrorism is ever going to be defeated, people are going to have to face the fact that it is driven by a historic Muslim belief in “Holy War” as a means of spreading their religion.

So then, now (today 1/5/07) that we finally have a Muslim (see definition above) in our House (of Representatives) … My CNN question, would be, “Representative Ellison, as a Muslim and ‘deemed’ follower and ‘true believer’ of the Qu’ran ... Representative Ellison, to WHICH are you really true - #1 Your elected position, as the American people's Representative (be they Muslim or NOT), or #2 to your religion’s more demanding and unrelenting requirements? … You, of course, can't be both; so which is it, really?"

And he would answer ... in the popular and politically correct way, that, ”I was just being bigoted for having even thought to ask him such a question!” … So be it, but at least, I was thinking!

It’s a hard,
hard rain that's gonna fall,

Robin

If Islam is such an intolerant religion, why is the oldest Christian church in a Muslim country (Orumiya, Iran), the oldest christian library (St. Katherine's monestary, Sinai, Egypt), one of the oldest jewish monuments (Esther & mordechai's tomb, Hamedan, Iran), etc. etc.

Why haven't they burned them down all these hundreds of years? How come there are still large number of christians still living in Muslim countries? Iran has the second largest jewish population in Asia after Israel.

Ever wonder why there were no other religions in Europe until de-colonialization? They killed or chased them out and burned down their places of worship.

So, maybe it's not Islam or Christianity, the religions or the cultures, that we are talking about here, but political clashes of our times.

To that ignorant Ananymous: Learn how to pick and define your enemies better. You are very new to this. Islam is not ALL-ENCOMPASSING. Radical Islam is uncompromising. I knew that 25 years before you hopped on this band wagon. We were muslims too in Iran and we fought the radicals, and lost. (Thank America for giving us a refuge from those bastards). Now, you are telling me that you know for sure all muslims are the same?

You're just a baby in this huge picture.

Lol at all the bigots, they don't even read the chapters of the Quran, they don't even know the five pillars

i wonder, why during hajj, Muslims aren't holding AKs and chanting "Death to America"

and Muhammad as a violent man, fock outta here. Dude wouldn't even kill a fly, but when the pagans and the Jews of Medina persecuted him and his followers and after the CHRISTIAN Abyssinian King let them have a safe place to settle, they had to fight back.

There are a billion Muslims, millions in America, so get used to American Muslims getting into the political arena. America wouldn't try to put Muslims in concentration camps or "Special IDs" for Muslims would they?

History repeats and the Muslims are now at the front of bigotry in the west

I don`t understand why some people prefer to preach hate, intollerance and exlusiveness rather than love,inclusive and cohesive. Do educated and civilized people will hate me because of my religion, color and backround. if you got a good brain, hope not.PLS READ AND KNOW THE principle basis of our constitution and let this country be the land of opportunity and freedom.thats why we are blessed! I wonder why this gentle man(Ellison) is bothered. the only Muslim and one of the few minority Rep. in the congress. DON`T JUDGE THE BOOK BY ITS COVER.
To Mr.Ellison, No matter what they say, Pls ignore ignorants and keep up serving for this great nation.GOOD LUCK!

TO YOU ALL THE MAN IS RESPONSIBLE WHATEVER HE IS,IT IS UNFORTUNATE TO JUDGE THE PERSON FOR HIS RILEGION. I AM SURE MR. ELLISON IF GOOD MAN WHO HAS CHOSEN ISLAM AS RELIGION. THEREFORE, IT IS IMPORTANT TO RESPECT HIS RELIGION AND LEAVE THE MAN ALONE.
FOR THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE POST UN ACCEPTABLE THREADS, I WILL ENCORAGE THEM NOT TO INSULT THE OTHERS FOR THEIR BELIEFS BUT MAKE SURE THEY DO THE TESKS THEY ARE DOING

Sheila has a good point but stops short. We should also forbid pharmacists from saying they won't sell condoms or morning after pills because they are opposed to them on religion grounds. We should also mandate that hospitals perform abortions because abortions are legal.

"... a new politics..."? What kind of new politics? The politics of Sharia law? Already the Muslim cabbies at the Minneapolis Airport are fighting for the right to refuse service to someone with a dog, even a service dog, because dogs are "unclean". They don't want to pick up a person carrying alcohol because alcohol is "forbidden". Right now, our laws DO include equal protection under the law regardless of religion, creed, sex, race, handicap, or national origin. Will they stay that way? I hope you will remember you are a Muslim representing ALL the people of Minnesota, not a Minnesotan representing Muslims. How DO you reconcile your desire for public service with the fact that your religion does NOT accept or tolerate ANYONE who is not a Muslim?

> why cant the ignorant in this forum just accept that and live in peace.

Sadly there are many who are caught in the snare of fear and hatred. Given how many there are from all backgrounds who are promoting and encouraging fear and hatred, it's not a surprise that many have bought into that view and spend their days chanting "they are evil; we are good". We see such in the Christian and Islamic communities.

Of course, we have to defend ourselves when the forces of hatred pick up a sword, but we should also join with all people of good will in praying that God will break His silence and speak a Word that none can deny. It's time for a old world to die and the new one which has been promised to all to be born.

Anything I have posted on this blog is traight from books accepted as genuine and as the basis of Islam. The books are the Koran, the hadiths and the Sirats or biographies. The Sirat Rasulallah by Ibn Ishaq is accepted as the first biography of Muhammad and therefore th closest to the truth about Muhammad.

Muhammad's paedophilic tendencies were well estabished as there was a pattern. Aisha was six, and Maria, Rayhana, Saffiya and Juwariyah were teenagers. Muhammad was also divorced by teenage wives and he divorced one wife because she had leprosy.

What is of concern to civilized people is not that Muhammad was a paedophile but that Muslims refuse to acknowledge this fault of his and refuse to pass laws banning the marriage of underage females. Even today in teh Muslim world children are married of to, actually sold to rich Arabs who divorce these children after getting their sexual gratification.

Muslim are here to stay and the whold has 1.5 billion.

why cant the ignorant in this forum just accept that and live in peace.

You claim that muslim are trying to kill you etc. The fact remains that through US foreign policies, most muslims live under oppressive regimes which kill and pervert the religion for political gains. These regimes couldn't exist without US support.

I am a muslim and i dont have any ill will towards americans, i just think its sad that you are so ignorant and incredibly biased.

The intrepretations of islam and the historical information being provided by some hateful bloggers is pathetic. Kindergarden kids could do a better job.

Do you really think that the people reading this page are that stupid?????

To Jake:
You wrote that "..but the truth is that Islam is a violent, intolerant, backwards religion and will be responsible for WWIII."
But before you talk about Islam and violence, why won't you tell us who was responsible for WWI and WWII?
Take a calcualtor and count how many people in the world were killed in religious wars, world wars, cleansed, nuked, bombarded, colonized or enslaved in or by nations who are not Muslim. Does that mean Christianity is violent? Or does it mean evil, violent people exist in every faith? How come you and people like you don't see that? Well, because you and they are bigots. Learn some tolerance from Mr. Allison.

Sami

i think, Congressman Keith Ellison had to do what he thinks is right for his country and the world that we all share.
He has to decide what he suits best in
we can not shape his personal decisions.
He is Muslim right, He is American too
and all of those in congress server for their country and their special interests too
for that reason, we should allow Congressman Keith Ellison to a part of them

second, religion is part of whagt shapes All the people in power whereever they are
and Congressman Keith Ellison is one of those people in power
Thanks

Regarding "People say that all the Prophet and his followers did was spread religion by the sword. What's forgotten is that early Islam was a nascent religion and community that was considered a threat by the established powers that be."

As was Christ's world, but he chose to die in lieu of slaughtering and enslaving others, having sex with children, etc.

The Christian ethic of self sacrifice and personal discipline was probably just too difficult for Mohommed and Arab culture to adjust to, so Islam was created to allow Moslems, or at least Moslem males, more leeway with respect to meeting their own personal needs above those of others.

People mentioned Ellison is using Thomas Jefferson's copy of the Quran. The national archives have Jefferson's extensive library and have kept it just the way he had it organized. His copy of the Quran was kept right near his Bible.

Thomas Jefferson was the author of America and history shows that he had a vast knowledge of all legal and moral codes in the world including Islam and the Quran. If you study the Quran and learn about it from a non-Orientalist perspective, you'll see that true Islam and it's law are very similar to what the founders of the country put forth. REad Karent Armstrong''s book on Muhammad or a book called Islam, Religion of Life and you'll see what I'm talking about. In the meantime, read this editorial written in May '05 and published in MEtro New York:

The Qur’an’s Relationship with the American Spirit

Islam’s presence in America is older than the United States itself. Not only were some members of the slave population Muslims it is a little known fact that Thomas Jefferson owned a copy of the Qur’an and studied it in detail. History tells us that Jefferson extracted the best from all codes of law during his quest for the ideal form of government. The Qur’an contains the core democratic principles such as representative government and freedom from oppression that Jefferson advocated in the Declaration of Independence and much of our country’s initial legislation. The teachings of Islam are part of the foundation of the American spirit of universal equality and the rights for all humanity.

While the Qur’an serves many purposes, Jefferson focused on its moral code and law. In today’s Muslim world, this code is often abused by autocratic governments and extremists looking to maintain their grips on power. These so-called Muslim governments have abused the Qur’an, resulting in rabid misinformation about the religion that considers it a Divine source.

In recent weeks, the Qur’an has been in the news for unfortunate reasons. The reports of the desecration of the Qur’an by US interrogators and Abu-Musab al-Zarqawi claiming the Qur’an sanctifies the killing of innocent people for the greater cause of ‘jihad’ has been a source of distress for most Muslims. John Espisito, professor of Islamic studies at Georgetown, articulated the first issue very simply, “the Qur’an is to Islam what Jesus is to Christianity.” He also accurately compares the feeling of Muslims as the same sentiment Americans feel when the flag is burned.

Even more dangerous for the 7mm Muslims in America and the billion plus throughout the world, is the misrepresentation of Islam by the extremists and the media. The word jihad is often erroneously translated as holy war, while the actual meaning is ‘struggle’. In its purest form, this struggle is for the defense of Islam’s principles. It ranges from simply telling the truth to defending an Islamic society against an invading power much like the Reagan-backed mujahadeen did in Afghanistan. It is true, however, that Muslims believe martyrs go to heaven. We also believe, to paraphrase the Qur’an, that killing an innocent person is like killing all of humanity. While jihad by the sword is an element of a Muslim’s struggle, it is given lesser importance than other forms. Ali, the Prophet’s nephew and the fourth caliph of Islam, said, “the ink of a scholar’s pen is more sacred than the blood of a martyr.”

Americans must attempt to understand the fastest growing religion in the world and the words that inspire its believers. We must embrace moderate Muslims throughout the world and give them a platform to defeat the extremist element within it. As a Muslim American I’ve benefited from the law that Thomas Jefferson and the Qur’an helped inspire. We must all realize that the Constitution and the Qur’an share the common goals of life, liberty and the humble pursuit of happiness.

To the person who said that in “639—642 Muslim Crusaders conquer Egypt”. You are wrong I was born in Egypt; I read its history. We invited Muslims to free us from the Romans persecutions. Don’t you know they burned the great Alexandria library. Read history and you will find all your allegations are wrong.

I've been following Keith Ellison's progress in the last few months and I predict that he will be one of the best lawmakers in Congress. He's consistent in his message AND his actions. He has shown great leadership and passion on progressive issues and has an inherent desire from social justice.

It's good to read through this blog and see so many open minded and tolerant comments. it's also disheartening to see the islamaphobia and the misinformation about islam.

Too many people trusting ethnocentric western orientalist commentators and 'historians' who speak of islam from a misnformed and paranoid perspective. Too many comments painting all Muslims with an extremist brush because of the actions of a few. Islam's face right now is extreme, but that is a misrepresentation caused by extremists and a sensational media that covers whoever screams the loudest.

Fact is, majority of Muslims are moderate people who were taught to be respectful of other human beings and strive for social justice and tolerance. Unfortunately, some Muslims and Muslim governments have gone away from these teachings. It is unfortunate however that the media and the politicians in this country did not make a stronger distinction between true Islam and what we see from the Taliban and bin laden etc.

Islamaphobia is a dangerous and disappointing trend, but I'm hopeful that Ellison, other Muslims who practice true Islam, and tolerant non-Muslims like the many on this blog reverse that trend. I'm hopeful that more of us speak up and the powers that be give us a voice.

Just a few comments on the Quran and Islamic history...First off, the Quran is a spiritual history and guidebook. It's language is symbolic and it's message is meant to be adaptable for any generation. It is a progressive message that is supposed to be adapted to the situation. We believe that it was revealed from God, and each revelation was to address a certain context and scenario. As a law book, it must be examined as a whole.

Someone quoted a line about 'killing infidels'. This line came about before a battle where the Muslims were outnumbered and their existence was being threatened. The word infidel at the time simply meant non-believer. The verse was meant to be a pre-battle pump up speech that was specific to a context of self defense against annihilation. Admittedly, certain Muslims ignorantly use this line to justify murder and terrorism, however they are going against other laws in the Quran that supercede their BS.

Example, the Quran says that killing an innocent human being is like killing all of humanity. Additionally, it describes war as a hated act that should only be committed if all other options are exhausted (something a lot of us Americans feel). These two rules along with rules such as 'there is no compulsion in religion' stand out stronger in the general context of life, then the scenario specific verses.

As far as Muslim history is concerned. People say that all the Prophet and his followers did was spread religion by the sword. What's forgotten is that early Islam was a nascent religion and community that was considered a threat by the established powers that be. The arabian peninsula was surrounded by the Persians and the Byzantines, two massive empires that felt threatened by the new kid on the block. They tried to destroy the early Islamic community but failed on the battlefield against the Islamic armies. Islam spread during this time because of the way the Musilms carried themselves during and after battle and because the poetry of the Quran was inspirational, progressive, and full of knowledge.

I am not saying that Islamic history is perfect. There were certainly times of tyranny and the abuse of power, but the greatest Islamic empires were highly advanced in the fields of science, mathematics, art and music. They also treated non Muslims with respect and gave them full rights. Early Islam and the time of the Prophet and his Caliphs is the best example and too often this history is distorted by Islamaphobics.

Right now the Muslim world needs reform, moderation, and modernization. Examples in Malaysia, Dubai, Qatar, Turkey, Indonesia, most of Pakistan, and America exist. Ironically, Bin Laden who picked this fight that empowered extremists of every ilk, is going to be the cause of this moderate and modern reformation. That and the environmental movement away from oil and other fossil fuels.

By the way, someone made a comment about supporters of Ellison funding terrorism. Anyone who fills up their gas tank supports and finances terrorism and extremism, so unless we all want to be hypocrites, we need to make a large advancement to reducing our carbon footprint and start taking care of the Earth.

God says to Prophet Mohamed,peace be upon him, who was nothing but a mercy to all mankind:

2: 159

“It is part of the mercy of God that thou dost deal Gently with them. Wert thou serve or harsh-hearted they would have broken away from about thee: So pass over (their faults), and ask for (God’s) forgiveness for them”

This is his manner and this why he is loved by many, and Muslims should be like him gentle and pass over others’ mistakes. Congratulations Congressman !!!

Brothers and sisters. Any human. I was just typing too fast. Sorry. Islam was the first religion to explicitly give women divorce rights, voting and inheiratance rights. Women in Europe just a couple centuries began to divorce , My sister. :-)

Sammer Muhommed writes: "I would beg of my christian, jewish and all other brothers to not be racist in your views."

"Other brothers?"

Women, again, simply do not exist except as sex toys in this ideology, as Sammer so aptly illustrates.

H writes: "The marriage was consummated when she was thirteen, which was the acceptable age for a girl to become a woman --more than 1400 years ago-- and give birth at the time."

FYI to H: Despite notions found in Moslem, Jewish, Old Testament and other non-Wiccan ideologies, the road to womanhood entails a bit more than initial sexual contact, be it welcomed or unwelcomed, especially with a horny old man.

I have never in my life read just garbage and bad information. Funny and sad. I am writing as an American of muslim faith with Palestinian ancestry.
Nowhere in the Koran does it allow killing. Muslims are a continuation of Christianity and Judaism who believe in all of the Old Testaments stories and prophets. Muslims go so far as to believe in the fact that it is Jesus who comes back to save the world. We believe in Jesus's birth to the Virgin Mary. We believe in Moses, Abraham,David ,Zacharias and even John the Baptist is revered to muslims. We believe in the ten commandments to the fullest. The only big difference between Christians and muslims is we do not consider Jesus to be the son of God. The Jews are very close to our faith. For you history buffs out there, it was the muslims who protected the jews throughout history from the savagery of so called Holy Popes i.e. Spanish Inquisition. Salehdeen who reconquered Jerusalem from the Crusaders, his personal advisor and doctors were all Jewish. Only recently have Jews been hated, wrongly, by muslims and this bad hate started in 1948. Founding of Israel.
In the Koran, it emphatically specifies that Jews and Christians are People of the Book meaning the Old testament which muslims also believe in.
Another interesting point is when the Christian world was in the " Dark Ages ", Islam was in the Enlightenment period when muslims created Algebra, translated ancient Greek texts and had peace in their empire which stretched from Spain to the ends of near China and Russia. The ironic point then was Muslims used to think Christians were barbarians and incompatible with peace because they were bloodthirsty. Sound familiar?
Do muslims have a problem right now? Yes.Some people in my religion are lunatics. They espouse strict views of women and religion. A few believe in killing people who do not follow them. And a lot of our countries have horrible dictators who are funded by the West and muslims are unable to overthrow. Do muslims need to reform and rid themselves of the tyrants, terrorists and strict fundamentalists? Damn right we do.
I would beg of my christian, jewish and all other brothers to not be racist in your views. There are over 7 million muslims in this country who are very tolerant. We are business owners, doctors, lawyers, and in every fabric of your society. There are open houses at all mosques across the country where you can meet normal muslims who may change your mind about what we are and stand for. Muslims in America have assimilated well and have one of the lowest crime rates in the country.( Justice dept). Please ignore websites like Jihadwatch and other press people who just take the bad and never show the good. These people aim to divide humans and not unite them. thanks for lettin me write.
P.S. Google search People of the book in the Koran and you can learn how much respect is given to the Old Testament. Google "surah Mary" which is 7 pages of the Koran dedicated to detailing Jesus, his birth and Virgin Mary.

Despite longstanding attempts by Moslems to somehow pretend Islamic writing doesn't record that Mohommed molested a 9 year old child, after noticing her and deciding "God wanted them to marry" when she was 6, the fact of the matter is it's Islam's own writing which records this perverted atrocity, and there's just nothing today's Moslems can do to change that, except, perhaps, reevaluate the religion itself.

Islamic scriptures are also quite clear on Mohommed's murder, rape, enslavement, forced sex with his stepson's wife, and general sexual obsessions which appear to have fed his appetite for power. Sorry about that.

It's interesting that Mohommed's religious career was bankrolled by his wife, a wealthy, older (40ish) widow he married in his 20s. One seldom sees today's Moslem males rushing to repeat this age-dynamic in marriage, despite the fact that it was Kadija's money which supported Mohommeds flights of fancy in the desert. But one often hears today's Moslem clerics and other males excusing and advocating sexual contact with little girls, because "Mohommed did it."

I think Mohommed would be disappointed...where are all the older women younger men marriages in the Moslem world which ape Mohommed's most critical career move?

Islam is the only major world religion where bodily functions continue in the afterlife, and those functions are specifically male sexually and gluttony-oriented. Just like Mohommed's career.

Mr. Ellison,

I offor you the opportunity to express what I am 100% sure you espouse, believe, and follow, because you are a Muslim.

That would be a statement that you are against killing for any reason as the Koran requires. An unequivacle stsatement that those who kill in the name of God are in fact ungodly and evil, and bring blasphemy to His name.

We need normal people like you, Mr. Ellison, to come out vocally, loudly, vociferously against the politics, philosphy, and actions of the murderous so-called muslims in Hamas, Taliban, or Al Qaida, or Hezbollah.

The sooner the better for everyone on earth.

Some people are talking about the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) and about Islam without any basic knowledge of him or the religion he represents either by ignorance or on purpose because they are sick in their minds and hate overcomes their souls. here is an advise. Learn about Mohamed the Prophet of Islam and I can assure you will love him because everyone who knew him or read about who he was and stand for loved him more than anything life; and my word for that person who accused to the prophet with all kinds of pathetic accusations that know are true. I would recommend for him to read the Koran and see what I am talking about.

"Secular Jew" wrote:

>It teaches jewish zealots to kill enemies kids and drink their blood."

This is what interested Islamistic circles wanted their "brothers and sisters" to believe right after 9/11, suggesting that "the Jews" (Mossad) were behind this attack. There are CDs circulating showing such scenes, as a Moroccan friend told me.

You are *never a secular Jew*, damning Jews and Christians;(

I would like to put the facts strait for you. Prophet Muhammad married Aisha when she was nine years of age. This was to support an alliance between the Muslims and one of the Bedouin tribes. This type of marriage was a common way to create alliances not only in the Middle East, but in Europe, Asia and Africa as well (one only need look at the monarchies in 19th century Europe to confirm this). The marriage was consummated when she was thirteen, which was the acceptable age for a girl to become a woman --more than 1400 years ago-- and give birth at the time. Again, the young age is not singly associated with the Middle East, in Victorian England the age of consent was fourteen. If you are really interested in learning more about the prophet Muhammad, I would suggest reading Karen Armstrong's book Muhammad. It is a very good read and her background as a Catholic nun really lends credence to her ability to show the similarities between Islam, and Christianity.

"Secular Jew" wrote:

>It teaches jewish zealots to kill enemies kids and drink their blood."

This is what interested Islamistic circles wanted their "brothers and sisters" to believe by all means right after 9/11, suggesting that "the Jews" were behind this attack. There are CDs circulating showing such scenes, as a Moroccan friend told me.

Who do you think you are kidding? You are *never a secular Jew*, damning Jews and Christians;(

Jai Khosla:
History has shown that an unjust society cannot defend itself. A man will not fight if he doesnot
believe in the rulers of his land.

The Arab conquest of India started with an 18 year old commander from Basra in Iraq named Mohammad bin Qasim.
You forgot to mention that Mohammad Bin Qasim came from the sea and landed in Sind with only 6000 men and in less than 2 years had conquered upto Multan in the Punjab.
Today his name is revered in the land. Karachi (3rd biggest city in the world) port is named after him. Nearly 1400 centuries later one can only wonder how an 18yr old could achieve all this. He was not yet 21 when he was killed.
These are the facts the rest is spin.

He changed the road signs, changed the geography,changed their Gods,changed their names, changed their dress,changed their calender,changed their flag and even changed their diet.
Maybe Paul L Bremer should have read about him.

Jai Khosla:
History has shown that an unjust society cannot defend itself. A man will not fight if he doesnot
believe in the rulers of his land.

The Arab conquest of India started with an 18 year old commander from Basra in Iraq named Mohammad bin Qasim.
You forgot to mention that Mohammad Bin Qasim came from the sea and landed in Sind with only 6000 men and in less than 2 years had conquered upto Multan in the Punjab.
Today his name is revered in the land. Karachi (3rd biggest city in the world) port is named after him. Nearly 1400 centuries later one can only wonder how an 18yr old could achieve all this. He was not yet 21 when he was killed.
These are the facts the rest is spin.

He changed the road signs, changed the geography,changed their Gods,changed their names, changed their dress,changed their calender,changed their flag and even changed their diet.
Maybe Paul L Bremer should have read about him.

How "bout those Redskins?

Kamyar

My questions were very valid.

The Islamic apartheid practices in Mecca and Medina and in Saudi Arabia in general were put in place by Muhammad after he ethnically cleansed Arabia of Jews. he said " Muslims lands for Muslims only and the only deen( religion) is to be Islam".

If Mr. Ellison is a American first he will condemn the apartheid and refuse to do the hajj.

If he is a Muslim first, he will do the hajj, thus indicating his approval of the apartheid.

This year 3 million Muslims did the hajj. They spent in the neighborhood of $15 billion. 15 billion a year can help build many good schools for Muslim children.

If only people could put their "religions" aside, the world would be a much better place.

I believe in God, not the Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Bhuddist, etc. God, but the THE God. Cause there can be only one, otherwise the whole house of cards will tumble. Religions are man-made by zealous demagogues who were able to whip the masses into a frenzy and whose followers perpetuated the so-called teachings of the so-called prophets.

People call themselves Christians, Jews or Muslims, but, please, which Christian, Jew or which Muslim? Whose interpretation of the so-called holy books are we to believe? The Catholic, the Protestant, the Mormon, the Orthodox, the Shiite, the Sunni???

If there was only one religion, centuries of atrocities in the name of the Bible, Torah, or Koran could have been avoided.

Mohommed married his so called "fourth wife," Aisha when she was 6, but did not actually begin molesting the child until she was 9.

I think the point is well taken that we have a political leader who has chosen a religious path which, according to the very Koran Ellison chose to validate his ascension, advocates the opposite of the "inclusion" he writes about.

Islam is about empowering male sexuality, and little else. The "inclusion" Ellision speaks of is contingent upon point-of-the-sword conversions, and other nastiness. Despite its support for wealth disparities, Islamic distribution of economic resources follows a "voluntary gift" model rather than any rational progressive morality. Conscience is absent, as long as followers parrot and adhere to a few Arabic language rules and regulations, they're free to act like animals towards others, in day to day life.

The ideology exhorts murder, rape, slavery, the denigration of women and others, child molestation and other crimes against humanity.

Indeed, it offers nothing whatsoever for intelligent women, which is why one sees far fewer black women then men "converting" in America.

Ellison's adherence to this violent, spiteful and sexually based ideology will make a difference in how his future legislative activities are perceived and evaluated.

You can turn back the clock 1000 years on radical Islam, nothing in the history of the world can compare to the carnage caused in the last 200 years of western civilization.

Between Western Expansion, The Civil War, The Trans-Atlantic slave trade, Colonialism, World wars 1 and 2, no ethnic group or adherents to a religion in the history of the world has been responsible for more deaths than people of western european christian descent That's just fact.

So if you're trying to explain how Islam is intrinsically destructive, that's a losing argument when you line up Islam's track record against that of of the Western world. That said, I think its absurd to hold random people of european christian descent responsible for those things because of the circumstances of their birth or chosen religion.

People of any faith, creed or race are capable of horrible things, and judging someone based on these qualities is bigotry.

Jai Khosla - in response to your "I have two questions for Mr. Ellison." post.

Mr. Ellison was elected by Minnesota to represent Minnesota, not Saudi Arabia or the Muslim world, as you put it. I would hope that he would spend the majority of his time working for his constituents in Minnesota and not any campaign for Saudi Arabia.

I dream that some day the 'my God is better than your God' debates will cease, and people will realize that even if God exists, he can take care of himself, and he does not need any attention or prayers or rituals from humans to validate himself or to decide who gets the benefits of being good.

The actions of adherents, no matter how misguided, cast no shadow on the religion itself. The majority of followers of any way of thought, practice or religion are deluded and miss the mark completely. The religion they only claim to follow is not to be blamed for their evil, misguided acts. Instead, look to the lives of the founders of these religions for proof of the validity their teachings. Did Jesus or Gotama? keep slaves? No. Did Muhammad? Yes. Did Jesus or Gotama kill anyone during their lifetime? No. Did Muhammad? Yes--many. He was considered a "great warrior". Did Jesus or Buddha steal during their lifetimes? No. Did Muhammad? Yes--many times. Read the chapter in the Koran called "Booty" for a peek into the mind of this twisted "prophet". Did Jesus or Gotama advocate violence against others? No--they prohibited it and warned against it. Did Muhammad? Yes. Were Jesus or Gotama in the habit of having sex with children? No. Was Muhammad? Yes--his youngest "wife" was 6 years old.

A side point - the Hindu God is not a cow.

Religion - like most everything else - can be constructive or destructive.

Islam, Judaism, Christianity - Hell, probably even Scientology can all be instruments of inclusion, generosity, and healing or instruments of bigotry, hatred and destruction.
It has more to do with the person than with the specifics of the religion itself.

Christian organizations give tremendous amounts of time and money to charity and are a source. At the same time, Christianity was invoked during the Spanish Inquisition.
Similarly, Islamic civilization was the most tolerant towards Jews for over a thousand years. At the same time, some used conversion by the sword even though the Qu'ran says that there should never be compulsion in religion.

Mr. Ellison behaves in a manner that so-called Christians would do well to emulate. He's going to be a great congressman. (Using Thomas Jefferson's copy of the Koran for your swearing was a nice touch, IMHO).

Some of the comments here are unbelievably bigoted. Here is one: "Against all my personal misgivings, hopefully, Representative Ellison leaves his religion out of politics and bases his decisions on what is good for all Americans." The assumption is that somehow Mr. Ellison is less than American and will work against our interests because of his religion. There is no doubt that this same person would be delighted to know that Mr. Bush believes that God's wants him to be President (as reported by Richard Land, one of the other On Faith panelists). Mr. Bush is alleged to be Christian.

I am a secular non believer jew. Those of you that quote the hatred in islam should take a peak at the TORAH. It teaches jewish zealots to kill enemies kids and drink their blood. All goyim are considered as low as cows - THE HINDU GOD - worthy of slaughter.
My point is all religions are evil especially jewish and christian religions.

Atleast here in Canada, while our health care system is not perfect,nevertheless, we are not afraid to lose our house in the event of major health crisis.

PC

Congressman Ellison......

Stand on what you stand on as what the real principle of the issues are in your district. I am very proud to see you reach and obtain a mark of the higher essence of your calling...
Let the haters choke on their owen HATERADE..

May GOD continue to bless you.

Keith Ridley,IV
Ridley Funeral Estab.Inc
Washington,DC 20032

I am so grateful that there is more intellectual people in U.S than there is Ignorant ones. It is horrible how some people judge something they completely don’t know. FYI some you might not know that all the 3 main religions were founded in the Middle East. Jesus wasn’t a white man with blue eyes, yet he was Middle Eastern dahhh. I am American I am a Muslim and I am Middle Eastern. I love my country and I love my religion which taught me to respect other religions. As a Muslim I know that Islam is perfect but Muslims aren’t. just like any other religion I guess. A lot of people use and have used religion to justify their own act and political agendas. Look at the history of the world. Look at the history of our great nation. You will find horrible things that were done in the name of God or religion. God Bless us all and bless America.

Ahmad

that last post was from me. I forgot to enter e-mail etc.

Jai

Ahmad from Jordan

Islam did not free slaves. There is not a single verse in the Koran asking Muslims to free slaves. In fact Muhamamd owned slaves till he died. Two of his slave girls, Maria and Rayhana were his sex concubines. He acquired Maria when she was 15 and he made Rayhana a concubine after he had widowed her. he took her to bed the same night he murdered her husband. Rayhana was also a teenage child. Neither became Muslims and therefore Muhammad did not marry her.

I am Hindu. Not a Jew. My ancestors lived for thousands of years in what is today Pakistan, During Partition my grandparents fled to India from Lahore with only their clothes on their backs and their children, one of them my father, in their arms. Else the Muslims would have killed them. My aunt was raped by Muslims.

Here is a hadith that sheds light on what Muhammad thought about slavery. It is true that Muhammad asked Muslims to treat slaves kindly. But that was because they were property and had to be well maintained so that they could do useful work.

Finally when a 56 year old man claiming to be a prophet takes a nine year old child to bed we call it rape. In the US it is punishable by law.

Now here is the hadith from Malik in Muwatta which also proves that for Muhammad a white slave girl was more valuable than a black slave girl.

Muwatta by Malik Book 43, Number 43.7.6:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Ibn Shihab from Said ibn al-Musayyab that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, gave a judgement that the compensation for a foetus killed in its mother's womb was a slave or slave-girl of fair complexion and excellence. The one against whom the judgement was given said, "Why should I pay damages for that which did not drink or eat or speak or make any cry. The like of that is nothing." The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "This is only one of the brothers of the diviners." He disapproved of the rhyming speech of the man's declaration.

I do have a bone to pick Congressman. Why is it in desperate times do people turn to faith rather than reason? Why do people shovel off their load into the invisible hands of an invisible master rather than deal with the very reality they are in? Religious faith is a form of escapism - to an extent that it is very similar to heroin to a heroin addict.

You evoke images of people being laid off due to "outsourcing" but you do nothing to note the very real creation of jobs that comes as business are now able to scale their growth. You create images of permanently destitute people who never re-enter the workforce which is very far from the image you try to create - a large portion of jobs outsourced have required skills and talents that can easily and readily be used elsewhere in a steady job market. It is still one of the best job markets in the history of the United States, humming along at about a 5.4% clip. But looking at unemployment numbers doesn't really tell you about the number and wide availability of jobs out there.

You bemoan the conditions of the minimum-wage worker. Minimum wage - the very line in the sand that government, not business drew long ago. The reality is far different. A very tiny fraction of today's workers are working for minimum wage while a significant portion of those are young adults who are just entering the work force or working in positions where only the bare minimum is offered and the person is in a tipped position (often making far more off the records than on the records).

You go on about health care for everyone and throw up the Canadian system as some form of example. But you don't look at the very reality of Canadian health care: (as another poster from Canada pointed out) it isn't quite as good as you shine it up to be. Neither is England's nationalized health care system where doctors are beginning to shun public health and taking their practices private. If you want the best possible health care, you come to America. It has a price tag attached but you can generally be assured access to doctors at any level of life.

I am a middle-class male who works hard. I've lived well below, at and finally above the poverty line. I did it through the very means that most Americans have: hard work, determination and education. Rather than taking pity on the couple who comes to church or temple why do you not pity their decision to spend time at church rather than bettering themselves through education. Would your god be happier to see you at church or at home, bettering yourself through study so you can gain the realistic traction you need in life to get ahead?

Your appeal to the working class is worthless. You are now sworn in to the elite class of Americans who are given a golden parachute, an undeserved wage for public service, a free ride for little or no effort exerted. You have joined the ranks of the looting class who stand to deprive individuals of their earnings by means of taxation. Whether those persons be the wealthy elite, who individually pay a higher percentage to the cult of government than you ever will in your lifetime, or middle class working people, the result is the same.

You appeal to those with less and promise to give them more while your goal is to steal (yes, steal) from those who have more to spur on your whimsical ideals. And who are you to lay claim to another man's wealth? You are a man with the power of law, drunk on politics and lacking any sort of valuable conscience. The greater problem with redistributing wealth by theft is that at its apex you have a two tiered system - the government elite and the mass of people enslaved to it. It didn't work for Russia - there is no reason to assume that it will work here.

If you truly want to revolutionize health care, remove the ties from employment for it. Allow health care insurance to be pooled into a larger marketplace - as you can with auto, home and life insurance. Fierce competition will drive prices downward naturally and make it far more affordable than the current group policies we are subjected to currently.

What better way to make poor people richer than to sever the very hand that is in the cookie jar every paycheck: government taxation. Allow the people the opportunity to use their money in a manner they see fit, rather than what a highly paid group of fools feels we need to spend money on.

Remove barriers to free trade and allow people to trade with whoever they want, whenever they want, however they want. Government subsidies need to be abolished equally across the board - subsidizing industry keeps prices artificially high and often food, a basic necessity, more expensive than it would cost otherwise in a free market.

Let me do with my Social Security as I see fit. I want to retire in comfort - not poverty. Social Security ensures that those dependent on it entirely will be impoverished for their remaining, non-working years.

Want to really help the poor? Stop the Civil War II otherwise known as the drug war. Nothing has had a greater impact on keeping poor people poor as has the war on drugs.

Restore civil liberties to their rightful place - outside of the stranglehold of government. Stop placing your hand on a copy of a book owned by a deist who helped craft the very ideals your convictions betray.

To Jai Khosla,

Please check your sources and re examine your writings before you make any claims. Do you think that the average reader of the Post is an idiot? Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Sad, disturbing, scary, ignorant, not very promising, refreshing and intersting. These words aply to many of the posts in this blog.
It is interesting how this debate branched off from health care, to religion, history, Islam, non sense, hate, color, creed, ethnic cleansing, domestic, comparative and international politics. I want to thank Congressman Goode and few NeoCon media attack dogs who presented Congressman Ellis with a silver platform to enter the House on, and me an opportunity to speak.

As a good Jewish friend of mine told me once;
"How sad, we all fight for God and God is one" That was the best thing I heard in the last ten years.

Before I go any further, and to save some readers the intelligent guessing exercise of my race or religion, I am an American who comes from an Arab background, a Moslem who does not practice but respect the pillars and parameters of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, to be a good and productive element in the society.

Members of my family serve in the armed services of the United States, others serve in very senior capacities in both the public and private sectors and I, a senior official/professional, have faithfully served my United States, protected it's interests and many of it's citizens, my own fellow Americans.

To those who are mistakenly and wrongfully mythed, there are thousnads of Americans who hail from Arab backgrounds, Christians and Moslems alike and whom are serving in the United States Armed Forces and Federal Government. Many have been elected to both Houses of the Congress and many are still there.

Several generations of Arab Americans have climbed the corporate ladder and successfully sailed them to rescue and success.

One would presume that the average reader of the Post somehow enjoys a certain level of intellectual depth. Unfortunately, some of the messages sent to this blog, indicate otherwise.

I mentioned earlier that I am not a practicing zealot. I am a productive member and element of the society, a loyal citizen, where America come first to me.

While I have no question to Congressman Ellison, I respectfully challenge Congressman Goode and his NeoCon attack dogs to deny the loyalty and sacrifices of an American for his country, and who happens to hail from an Arab and Moslem, backgrounds, like the many thousands who share the same background.

Congressman Goode, I have no choice but to present you with all my due respect as an elected official of a State where I own business and property and once lived. Nevertheless, I urge to know and learn more about the Koran, but not the versions of Zarkawis and Bin Ladens, Zawahiris and other criminals who have misused and distorted Islam and it's message, which is no different than the great religions of Judaism and Christianity.

It may be worth it to task one of your tax payers funded Congressional aids to reserach subject for you, or, better yet, hire a history major to do so, in order to avoid a similar PR disaster the next time a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, aetheist, or wahtever is elected to our Congress.

We do not only claim to love America. We practice our love of this land. Unlike some others, we put America's interests first.

The first thing islam did was to free all slaves.
Back then women used to get burried alive and islam outlawed that and gave women inheritance rights that western women enjoy recently.
All muslims circumcise their baby boys but not girls as the haters would say, a new study says Circumcision reduces HIV.
Islam does so many great things but colonizers bring out the worst in every society. Jihad is invoked ONLY when your country is under occupation such as in palestine now, or iraq.
To fellow americans I would ask: what would you do if a country decided to invade the USA to give you pure freedom where money and AIPAC has no say over your policy?. Would you stand up and fight therefore doing the american equivalent of jihad or would you accept.
"Give me liberty or give me death".

Kudos to Mr Ellison for standing firm on the use of the Q'uran for his swearing in.

Those who opposed his decision and the use of the Koran have plainly branded themselves as self-centered bigots. They have lost the true spirit of America.

Those people who think all muslims are the same are ignorant of the facts of Islam in practice. There are as many different faiths within Islam as there are different faiths of Christianity. (The Jewish have their varous divisions too.) When you consider how "well" the various christian denominations have gotten along together over the centuries, why should you be surprised that the various muslims have the same sort of track record?

It is wrong to brag about Canada's health coverage for all its people when there are "46 million" Americans uncovered. There aren't even 46 million Canadians in the whole country. To provide coverage for a vastly smaller nation is quite a different undertaking than to do so for a much larger population. Quit comparing apples and oranges. Ours is a system with big problems, sure. But let's come up with our own solutions and quit the hand-wringing over the Canadians.

Jai Khosla wrote
"My posts on the rape of Aisha and the massacres of the Jews are from hard copies of the hadiths"

The so called Jai is pretending to be Hindu, in fact he is not, he is a jewish zionist trying to inflame hatred between muslims and Hindus just like the british did in the past. The so called Jai is not an authority about islam and his hate will end up killing his sole. In addition, many horrible acts occured throught history including the crusades and the hollocaust but this is not the topic for this talkback.

REPRESENTATIVE ELLSION-

A hearty a salaamu alaikum wa rahmatulahi wa barakatu and i just saw you and your crew sworn in and said alhamdoulila and may ALLAH bless you in your endeavors

thankyou american muslim you are most welcome to express anything you like as far as im concerned it was a pleasure to read

peace and yeeeehaw to all of us american muslims!!!!

Do americans know that in Iran minorities like jews can use the Torah and christians can use the bible for their parlament serimony?
The US has a long way to go to catch up.

Posters are correct that there are Islamic jurists who believe that anyone who leaves Islam to become a Baha'i or other religion is an apostate worthy of death. This is not the teaching of the Qur'an but a more recent development in Shariah law based upon individual clerical judgments that developed into schools of law.

There are "Christians" who believe that homosexuals and adulterers should still be stoned to death. Does that make such teachings a true representation of Christianity?

PAULA you have us confused with jewish people-
muslims dont celebrate passover- that is an old testament story- jewish people celebrate passover- muslims (people who practice the islamic faih) dont read the bible

i just finished my fajr prayers (morning) and i just watched nancy pelosi sworn in to the house fo representatives and i think it took about 70 seconds

now theyve collectively sworn in ALL the members of congress- it took about 45 seconds and not one bible or Qur'an in sight!

time for washington journal
its friday and brian lamb is on hes my fave

ps nancy pelosi flooded the chambers with children right before the swearing in and boy if she didnt look presidential!
peace

Anonymous misquotes the Qur'an, e.g. 4:47 does not refer to people of the Book being turned into apes. The same goes for the rest of the quotes, which are simply wrong or taken in a literalistic fashion out of context just as Islamist fanatics do.

Hadith are an unfortunate element of Islamic texts that include many things that are difficult to give credence to. Do Christians give credence to apocryphal texts that have Jesus harming a child who taunts him? Just because non-scriptural texts say something happened doesn't mean it did.

Islam is not a peaceful religion? God himself is a baby killer. Is that not what you celebrate during Passover? That god came in and slew hundreds of babys in their cribs? It appears to me that not much in the bible is pro-life.

Keith Ellison, I wish you success in your first term in the US House.

Ali Khan

There is a strong argument that talking about such forgotten tragedies may ignite the victims, namely the Hindus in India, into violent actions.

Yet, these are the fact recorded proudly by the Islamic historians and rulers of India and available in original form in libraries around the world and a section of the Hindus in India are becoming aware of these tragic facts and a section of those informed Hindus are forming those radical Hindu organizations such as RSS, Kar Sevaks and VHP etc. who are seeking revenge by trying to rebuild their destroyed temples at the site of now-standing mosques. Why these people are turning violent once they get to learn about those hushed-up tragedies? It should also be recognized that highly educated and rich Hindus, such as members of the VHP, are funding these militant Hindu organizations. But why? The answer is simple.

Those atrocities were terrible and heart-rending and when Hindus suddenly get to find out what has happened to their ancestors centuries ago, they feel shocked, they feel indignation against Muslims and they want revenge in whatsoever way that might be.

However, recognition of those terrible tragedies that fell on the Hindus of India after Islamic invasion and during the Islamic rule is likely to go a long way in pacifying indignant section of Hindus. An apology from Muslims would advance that cause immensely. There is a good deal of angst amongst Muslims against the Hindus because of the Hindu Zamindars' (landowners)oppressive and harsh activities in the days of the British rule. But the harshness caused by the Hindu Zamindars to Muslims is ignorable if compared to what happened to the Hindus in the days of Islamic invasion and rule of India. The Zamindars were harsh on the Hindu subjects as well - thanks to the British.

However if Muslims can recognize the atrocities caused by the Islamic invaders and rulers on the Hindus, their own indignation against the Hindus vis-à-vis the Zamindari activities would surely be reduced, which can help strengthen relationship between both communities.

Yet the facts about the Islamic atrocities, unrivalled in the history of India, are coming out into the public domain anyway - thanks to the historical details left by the Muslims historians and rulers themselves. The sooner the people of India and the Muslims in particular take steps to recognize those terrible atrocities to honor the victims, the better it is for harmonious relationship between the Hindus and Muslims living there.

Ali Khan

Islamic rule in India was no less harsh than Hitler's treatment of the Jews .There has been too much of talk about the "divide and rule" policy of the British Raj where British administrators had created division between Hindus and the Muslims during their rule in India. An overwhelming majority of the sub-continent people believe this policy to be the root cause of communal troubles that we witness in India today. There is a deeply entrenched belief that the concept of religious intolerance between the Hindus and the Muslims was totally absent in India until the British devised this malevolent scheme to keep the Hindus and Muslims engaged in fighting each other.

Many people in the sub-continent believe that this was a clever ploy so that they (the British) could continue to rule India while the people remained divided over religious disharmony.

There cannot be any bigger untruth than the assertion that religious intolerance never existed in Indian soil until the British invented it. The truth is that religious tolerance and harmony hardly ever existed in the sub-continent throughout the centuries of Islamic rule.

Destruction of temples, oppression and forced conversion of the Hindus, especially around the urban areas all over India, were common phenomenon during the Islamic rule.

The Bahmani sultans in central India made it a rule to kill 100,000 Hindus a year. In 1399, Teimur killed 100,000 Hindus IN A SINGLE DAY, and many more on other occasions [Negationism in India].

Even during the late period of the Islamic domination of India, Emperor Aurangzeb (rule 1658-1707) re-imposed the "religion tax or Jiziya" on the Hindus and other people of indigenous religions. Aurangzeb was a champion destroyer of Hindu temples. Amongst the famous temples he destroyed were: the Kashi Vishvanath, one of the most sacred places of Hinduism, Krishna's birth temple in Mathura, the rebuilt Somnath temple on the coast of Gujurat, the Vishnu temple, overlooking Benares that was replaced with the Alamgir mosque (Alamgir is another name of Aurangzeb), and the Treta-ka-Thakur temple in Ayodhya. Aurangzeb's own official chronicles have recorded mind-blowing figures of temple destruction.

Aurangzeb had ordered his provincial governors to destroy all schools and temples of the pagans and to make a complete end to all pagan teachings and practices. The Aurangzeb's chronicle sums up the temple destructions as follows:

"Hasan Ali Khan came and said that 172 temples in the area had been destroyed... His majesty went to Chittor and 63 temples were destroyed. Abu Tarab, appointed to destroy the idol-temples of Amber, reported that 66 temples had been razed to the ground.."

Aurangzeb did not stop at destroying temples only, their users were also often wiped out; even his own brother, Dara Shikoh, was executed for taking an interest in Hindu religion. The Sikh Guru Tegh Bahadur Singh was beheaded because he objected to Aurangzeb's forced conversions. Even during the rule of Mohammad Shah after Aurangzeb's death, Persian ruler Nadir Shah invaded of India (1738-39) and killed an estimated 200,000 people in Northern India alongside plundering and looting.

The Islamic assault on India started in the early 8th century, on the order of Hajjaj, the ruler of present-day Iraq. Starting in 712 the raiders, commanded by Muhammad bin Qasim, demolished temples, shattered sculptures, plundered palaces and killed vast numbers of men. It took three whole days to slaughter the inhabitants of the city of Debal followed by taking their women and children to slavery, including the taking of young women as sex slaves.

After the initial wave of violence, however, bin Qasim tried to establish law and order in the newly-conquered lands, and to that end he even allowed some degree of religious tolerance. But upon hearing of such humane practices (contrary to the Koranic doctrine), his superior, Hajjaj from Baghdad objected, writing:

"It appears from your letter that all the rules made by you for the comfort and convenience of your men are strictly in accordance with religious law. But the way of granting pardon prescribed by the law is different from the one adopted by you, for you go on giving pardon to everybody, high or low, without any discretion between a friend and a foe. The great God says in the Koran [47.4]: "0 True believers, when you encounter the unbelievers, strike off their heads." The above command of the Great God is a great command and must be respected and followed. You should not be so fond of showing mercy, as to nullify the virtue of the act. Henceforth grant pardon to no one of the enemy and spare none of them, or else all will consider you a weak-minded man."

I gave this great nation 3 years of military service while at the same time practicing AL-ISLAM, like so many others before and after me. I have yet to read or be shown in the constitution of these Unites States where it says freedom of religion except if you are a Muslim. In our country Americans take pride in stating that we have religious freedom, yet when it comes to those we disagree with that part of the constitution is conviently over looked. I say to people often, that " I Love America the Beautiful, but America the Ugly needs a facelift,and a heart transplants." Though the Declaration of Independence, in its preamble states that "We hold these truths that ALL men are created equal, and have been endowed with certain inalienable rights, Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Yet African Americans were enslaved in this so-called Christian nation for nearly 300 years, followed by another 100 years of LYNCHINGs, which many were often made public with mobs of family members partying, And an apartheid system called JIM CROW. There is a record of one slave saying; " you look like G-d in your face, but the devil in your heart." And it was reported that the great freedom fighter in the abolitionist movement who was also an ex-slave Frederick Douglas said; " you look like G-d in your face but your actions are such that would shame a nation of savages." So again America has a history of show two different, or totally opposite faces. Now we in America have the opportunity to live up the Best in our constitution. No one else in America is being questioned about their religious afiliation when elected to office, Nor should the Muslim be either. African Americans were not terrorized by Muslims in America, Those who Lynched our people and burnt crosses on our lawns and bombed our Churches were not Muslims. The many crimes we see in the media on a daily bases are not Muslims. Just as there are bad and misguided Christians that have committed horrendous crimes against Humanity, you find the same among Muslims. But just as we don't define Christianity by those who commit those horrific acts, we can't define Islam by them either.
ALLAH(The Most High) says in His Sacred text, the Qur'an: "Those who Believe in(Islam), those who follow the Jewish scripture, Christians and Sabians, any who believe in G-d, and The Last Day, and work Righteousness; shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."
sura 2 ayat 62

see websites; www.newafricaradio.com

and www.islamicvoiceofamerica.com

Ali Khan

there were plenty of massacres of Hindus in India. Attempts to convert Hindus by force met with stiff resistannce for example from the Rajputs. Also most of the soldiers of Muslim kings were Hindus and they dared not attemt to massacre Hindus.

But by and large the Muslim Mughals were glad to be away from the mideast where Islam was truly harsh.

the least violent of Muslim Rulers, Akbar, renounced Islam. He was the best of the rulers.

Aurangzeb imposed the jizya tax o Hindus and that is whne many Hindus converted out of economic necessity tp escape from economic coercion.

It is true that Christians have commited atrocity but these atrocities had no justification from the teachinhgs of Jesus. Jesus taught peace and love.

Muhammad was a violent man and Muslims are following his example.

The turning point for Christians came when Christians began to question the divinity of Jesus beginning 17th century. The answers they gave are irrelevant. But that these skeptics were not killed was proof that Christians have matured. They are not killing innocents any more.

Today any Muslim or non-Muslim questioning and criticizing Muhammad will be killed if he or she happened to live in a Muslim country. When Muslims begin to accept or at least tolerate criticism then it will mark a turning pont for Islam.

Besides we are discussing Islam here, not Christianity.

In 1971 according to official Bangladesh govt. figures 3 million Bengalis, mostly Hindus, were killed by the Muslim Pakistani Army. yet not a hint of condemnation from Muslims including from Indian Muslims.

PS: I am not a Christian and do not belive Jesus was divine. But his message peaceful. Muhammad was not a man of peace. Important difference.

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MUSLIMS! YOU ARE THE TARGET TILL THE BARREL MOVES
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There are plenty of Muslims as well as Muslim organizations who have apologized, around the globe, over and over again for the crimes which were committed by some lunatics like Osama and Co.

Apparently, those people who continue to demand more "apologies" from the Muslims, here and elsewhere, are diseased by Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) and in the habit of playing "Tag, You are it" type of games with the Muslims.

Lets turn the tables here for a second and talk about White Christian Terrorism, which has been documented throughout the history, and demand some apologies from these BPD diseased "we-do-no-wrong" "Christians."

To learn about White Christian Terrorism, all one needs to do is to look at today's World Map to see how many countries speak Spanish, Portuguese, English, Dutch or French. White Christians Terrorists killed MILLIONS of people around the globe in the name of Jesus Christ. Hiding behind Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, United Nations, World Bank, International Monetary Fund, Noble Prizes .etc or castigating 1.2 billion Muslims as "terrorists" is not going to whitewash White Christian Terrorists' own dark past which is full of crimes against Humanity, genocide and holocausts which should be listed, documented, reiterated not only over here but also on other places as well. If mainstream media, which includes the Washington Post, doesn't report today's incidents of White Christian Terrorism, it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. White Christian Terrorism is not only alive and well but also has become even more sophisticated and deliberate.

As far as Islam's tolerance towards others is concerned, had Muslim Rulers of India, who ruled over India for centuries, orchestrated any inquisition on the scale of 'Spanish Inquisition,' India would have been the largest Muslim country on this planet earth. Indeed, today's India is one of the shining examples of Islam's tolerance.

Alas! Samuel P. Huntington, who coined the term of "clash of civilizations, correctly diagnosed when he prescribed about the predicament of these "Westerners," "The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do."

At the end of the day, it is all about having somebody at the end of the barrel of the gun of racism and xenophobia. There has been Irish, Italians, Germans, Chinese, Japanese, African-Americans, Hispanics and others before at the end of the very same barrel on which you find Muslims nowadays.

No matter how hard Muslims try to avoid, they will have to stay at the end of this barrel till it finds its next target.

As a Christian I am personally appalled at all the hateful words written about Islam on this page. In case you've forgotten your history, Christianity also had it's dark period. For hundreds of years my faith was exploited for political and commercial gain. In case you've forgotten, people were massacred, enslaved, etc, and Christianity was used as a means to justify these actions. Islam is now being used my many people who at the heart of things are simply concerned about consolidating their power - this period will eventually come to a close.

In the interim, we as a nation have got to get past these constant hateful, self-destructive, bigoted ideas and behaviors. We have never been strong as a nation when we were divided. Hopefully, we will start to use common sense and reason rather than fear and close-mindedness to drive solutions to our most pressing problems.

Given what Mr Ellison has demostrated and promised thus far, I believe he will serve our country well. I wish him the best as he starts his term.

This is in response to Evolution's post on January 4, 2007, at 8:27 PM ...
"Larry, the ignorant Muslims are the first wave of an evolutionary process ... Eventually the moderate Muslims evolve into fundamentalist who, you guessed it, kill and persecute the unbeliever."

If that is true, why the fundamentalist Muslims ruled Spain for eight hundred years and had left a lot of Christians alive to perpetrate inquisition in the waning years of 15th century?
If that is true, why the fundamentalist Muslims ruled India for one thousand years and left enough Hindus alive to eventually persecute them in the so-called secular India today?

The hadiths are partially published at this Univ of Southern California site,

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/

The site has ommitted many hadiths that are embarassing. there is one hadith deliberately left out and has to with Muhammad in his fifties performing coitus interruptus on the child Aisha between the ages of 9 and 11 until he acquired a Chritian concubine Maria and then went to live with her.

I have another hadith describing Muhammad and a camel but it is too gross to post here. It is from a hard copy of hadiths published by Dewan Press.

Victoria

My posts on the rape of Aisha and the massacres of the Jews are from hard copies of the hadiths and the Sirat Rasulallah that I bought. I did not use faithfreedom. I can think for myself.

Amro, please go to Amazon.com and purchase a copy of Sirat Rasulallah published by Oxford Press in Pakistan. Costs less than 50 dollars.

Reagrding Muhammad's affair with his daughter-in-law Zainab bint Jashst read sura 33 in the Koran

stay off of that site jai-
i dont ask faithfreedom.org to provide me with reliable QUranic verse- and neither should you.

From Sirat Rasulallah by Ibn Ishaq(Rescension by Ibn Hisham, translated by Guillaume). Described how Muhammad massacred the Jews.

Then they surrendered, and the apostle confined them in Medina in the quarter of d. al-Harith, a woman of B. al-Najjar. Then the apostle went out to the market of Medina (which is still its market today) and dug trenches in it. Then he sent for them and struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches. Among them was the enemy of Allah Huyayy b. Akhtab and Ka`b b. Asad their chief. There were 600 or 700 in all, though some put the figure as high as 800 or 900. As they were being taken out in batches to the apostle they asked Ka`b what he thought would be done with them. He replied, 'Will you never understand? Don't you see that the summoner never stops and those who are taken away do not return? By Allah it is death!' This went on until the apostle made an end of them.

Huyayy was brought out wearing a flowered robe in which he had made holes about the size of the finger-tips in every part so that it should not be taken from him as spoil, with his hands bound to his neck by a rope. When he saw the apostle he said, 'By God, I do not blame myself for opposing you, but he who forsakes God will be forsaken.' Then he went to the men and said, 'God's command is right. A book and a decree, and massacre have been written against the Sons of Israel.' Then he sat down and his head was struck off. [Sirat, page 464]

This hadith from Sahih Muslim is more evidence that Muhammad did not hesitate to kill even children.

Book 38, Number 4390:

Sunan Abu-Dawood

Narrated Atiyyah al-Qurazi:

I was among the captives of Banu Qurayzah. They (the Companions) examined us, and those who had begun to grow hair (pubes) were killed, and those who had not were not killed. I was among those who had not grown hair.

The source for Muhammad's killing of innocent Jews and of Marwan are the first biographies such as Sirat Rasoolallah by Ibn Ishaq and biography by Tabari. Please get a copy of Sirat Rasulallah from the library and read for yourself. the book will also tell you how Muhamamd robbed caravans.

Muhamamd also stole his daughetr-in-law from his son Zaid and the proof is there in the Koran, sura 33.

The proof of Muhammad raping children is in the hadiths. A child might reach puberty but she is not ready for sex at the age of nine, especially with a 56 year old gizzard who made false claims about being a prophet of the arabic god Allah.

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Mr. Khosla:

I’ am not sure of the source of your information regarding this massacre and also Asma’s story. Many people mocked, and criticized Prophet Muhammad during his life and he never did anything. And if he was a live when the Danish made fun of him in the infamous cartoons, we would have smiled and let it go. That was Muhammad I respect and I know. Obviously, It is hard to change misconceptions, but let me tell you this, if the Qur’an said that a Muslim should kill the non believers--not to mentioned the people of the book, Christians and Jews-- then this is not the Quran I believe in or the religion I know. there is nothing to reform in the Qur’an but there is a lot to be reformed in the Islamic institutions and teachings.

As for Aisha, the mother of the believers, who tough all Muslim how to practice Islam because she had access to the Prophet’s private life(unlike anybody else), she married the Prophet after she reached puberty not 9. Plus you are talking about societies that existed more than 1400 years ago; different traditions and cultures. We have matured now and Muslims and non Muslims don’t accept that to happen, and there nothing in Islam that says otherwise. Islam is for whatever benefits human beings and purify and civilize them. And almost all the Prophet’s marriages were for a purpose it was not for sexual desires. I wish Muslim scholars were active in explaining these difficult issues to people and to Muslims themselves; unfortunately they are not. One more thing, Prophet Muhammad himself refused to allow his daughter to marry from someone who had another wife. That tells you that after women take their righteous place in societies in the Islamic world the tradition of Polygamy can be stopped because strong women would not allow that to happened, and they have the Prophet approval.

How misguided you americans are.

Anyone can interpret any religious text to mean what they want.

Islam does not preach hate just as the bible does not preach hate. Evil people see what they will to justify their actions and encouraged the uneducated illiterate.

I have seen jihadist fundamenlists and they say the same sort of hate in the same manner as the ignorant bloggers on this forum.

I think the US has lost itself in hatred and ignorance. A democracy must protect its public
tyranny, from both the minority and majority.

No one is perfect, no person follows their religion perfectly. Stop seeing the actions a very very few and representing 1.4 billions. To think otherwise is plain stupid.

The islamic world is not homogenous either! There many views and interpretations.

P.S. taking quotes from the quran out context is a pathetic attempt to muster hatred which i hope people can see past.

Amro Khalifa

Muhammad's killing of innocent Jews and women like Asma bint Marwan , all of whom were unarmed, are proof that he was a terrorist. Bin Laden is merely being a faithful Muslim when he emulates Muhammad.

One more thing, let us not allow few evil doers create distrust between Muslims and non-Muslims. These terrorist, who don't represent the message of Islam, will be gone one day and what will be left is the true message of Islam that celebrates co-existence and harmony between people regardless of their faith. Let us take advantage of the blessed life enjoy here in the States and show the world an example of how Americans get long regardless of their beliefs. I’ am proud to be an American and a Muslim and good luck Congressman Ellison.

mr. Khalifa

Islam is not a peaceful religion. Muhammad was not a peaceful man. His masscare for example of 800 male Jews of the Banu Qurayza tribe including 12 year old boys who had just sprouted pubic hair and the assasination he ordered of Asma bint Marwan, a poetess who criticized him, are not examples of a peacful prophet. Marwan was killed while she was sleeping with her children. Also again and again the Koran orders killing non-Muslims. Muhammad called them unbelievers in the Koran. Also Muhammad's preference for sexual relationships with children were instances of sexual violence against children. When he had sex with his child wife Aisha she was only 9. He was 56. Had he done it in the USA today he would be jailed for statutory rape.

You cannot fit a round peg in a square hole. Islam has no choice but to reform itself. the first step is admitting that Islam is of human origin and is a flawed faith.

Awesome, Keith!

I have two questions for Mr. Ellison.

1) Saudi Arabia practises an Islamic form of religious apartheid by banning all non-Muslims from entering Mecca and Medina. Also non-Muslim worship and the building of non-Muslim places of worship are also banned in Saudi Arabia. Muslims silentlly support this apartheid by doing the annual hajj.

Will Mr. Ellison support international pressure on Saudi Arabia to allow full freedom of worship including the freedom to build churches, synagogues, temples etc in Mecca and Medina and the freedom to proseletyze about non-Muslim faiths? And until Saudi Arabia does so will Mr. Ellison urge and support a boycott of the hajj by all Muslims? The money saved, some 10 billion dollars a year, is better spent on education for poor Muslims.

2) Will Mr. Ellison launch a campaign against some of the evil practices in the Muslim world such as marriage of female children to old Muslim men and polygamy. Muslims justify such abuse of women and children by citing prophet Muhammad's lifestyle. He had children as wives or as concubines as young as six when he was in his fifties and is reported to have as many as 12 wives simultaneously. The Koran allows four wives at a time and does not prohibit child marriage.

Dear Anonymous:

I hope we all engage in a productive conversation that benefits all Americans. And I hope that all Muslim Americans appreciate the freedom and democracy that allowed them to practice their religion freely in the land of freedom. Having said that, allow me to shed the light on some of the Suras you mentioned.

2: 191

That verse came down for a specific incident that took place more than 1400 years ago. Muslims were forced into exile from Mecca, after they were persecuted, tortured, and oppressed. All that because they wanted to practice their religion freely. And before that --out of context-- verse, God says “Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but don’t transgress limits; For God loveth not transgressors”. Usama, for example, and his gang are transgressors, and God does not love transgressors.

2: 193

This is also directed toward early Muslims who were persecuted by Meccans more than 1400 years ago. God says in this verse, fight them(The Meccans) until there is “JUSTICE” (Until they, for example, stopped the despicable act of burying infants girls because they thought girls brought shame to their families) The Qur’an, a gender neutral book, came to protect women’s rights after all. Also, in 2: 193, God says

“But if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression”.

After these verses were revealed Prophet Muhammad signed a peace treaty with the Meccans, despite the disagreement of many Muslims who felt they can take on the Meccans once and for all, but the Prophet ( who was ordered by God)didn’t come to fight; he came to spread the word of God and establish justice. He was willing to do anything to stop the fighting. And after the Meccans broke the treaty(lasted 10 years), Prophet Muhammad returned to Meccan with the Muslims and took control of the village without a fight and forgave all those ( Yes, non-believers) who persecuted the Muslims. He followed the foot steps of Jesus.

Muslims can’t deny that fighting is prescribed on them as the last resort or for self defense “ Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you” but under very strict conditions. Muslims can’t have use nuclear weapons for example. Muslims are also forbidden from destroying the environment or targeting children, women, the elders, innocent people and committing suicides. Having said that, peace, and tranquility is more important to Islam than anything else, and they override any other priorities. Human life is precious in Islam as it is in our constitution.

I don’t blame you for relying on out of context verses or inaccurate translations of the Quran; after all interpreting the Quran requires a lot of effort and only few of those who are well versed in the Arabic language and Islamic history can accomplish just that. This is why a lot of young kids in the Islamic world are going astray and adopting evil ideology, because they don’t understand their holy book. The soul and the purpose of Islam are what guide one’s effort to interpret the Qur’an. The soul of Islam is peace and Justice and it is purpose is to live a pious life and go back to the almighty as pure as you can be.

5: 51

I strongly disagree with the inaccurate translation you provided here, and I suggest you read what came after it:

5:69 “Those who believe (in the Qur’an) those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, and the Christians, and who believe in God and the last day, and work righteousness, on them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve”

And in another Sura

3: 113 “Not all of them are alike: of the people of the book(Jews and Christians and others) are a portion that stand (for the right); they rehearse the signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration”

And

3: 199 “And there are, certainly, Among the people of the book those who believe in God, In the revelation to you, And in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to God: they will not sell the signs of God for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift in account”

Finally, all Muslims and non-Muslims should read this verse to understand Islam better:

10: 99 “ If it had been thy Lord’s will, they would all have believed, wilt thou then compel mankind against their will to believe”

God explaining to Prophet Muhammad that he can’t force the message on others. Therefore, Muslims are not out there to force their faith on others under any circumstances. Please, don’t believe who says otherwise. Islam is peace and nothing but peace.

this is beginning of the end of America folks. dont fool urself. today america has officially become a client state of the rats in Saudi Arabia.

For all of you who still believe that Muslims have not spoken out against terrorism please take a moment and google just three words:
Muslims condemn terrorism

Have blessed day!

What you have articulated is socialism. Our constitution does not provide for health care. Should Doctors and medical research salaries be capped as you propose a few CEO's be capped? What incentive then for exceptional health care? Perhaps you have the answer.

You advocate for our educated, the bright and the skilled not to be rewarded so greatly but to leave some on the table. That has already been done.
Is it not enough?

We do not discourage or penalize those who freely create a business. It is their reward to receive the profits they create. The return on their investment is theirs even though substantial.

It is thought provoking to remember that business owners and the successful are not taking their success away from those who have little or less. They have not stolen something away which belonged to the less educated, the less cabable.

Socialism takes away the rewards from the successful, it creates an illusion of success, holding it's subjects to average standards. Few excel and none justly rewarded for excellence.

The gay chooses to remain gay, the rest choose to remain unchanged. There can be no merging, the conflict is too great. We have diversity without inclusion.

If health care is to be affordable for everyone, then freely give it to all children, reduce the cost for elderly with reduced earning power, and include medical personel and research to contribute by sacrifice to reduce expenses to both taxpayer and employer who now bare the costs.

Regulate all wire services transferring money out of the country under banking laws. Traceable transactions, taxable transactions of billions of U S dollars which have ceased to support an economy that has done so much for so many.

You have no support to further tax or cap the rewards of those who paid the incomes of those who greatly defeat their own ability to meet their own needs while unfailingly sending portions of their income each week out of the US. Additionally obtaining benefits not included in any employee benefit package; supplementing with government medical, food, housing and education benefits while relentless in complaint for increase.

A request of inclusion of some is not, to my ears, the important issue of the whole society.
Fix what is broken. That is the work at hand.
We are a country in jeopardy.

Of the multiple religions of America none seek inclusion, all are included legally.

Islam is clear that non-Muslims are non-believers, in fact, infidels. No matter, 'we' nevertheless uphold the laws of our country knowing we have been labeled as such.
Muslims separate onto a community of like thinkers, according to a religion, within the community of Americans. Do others do any differently?

I think you would agree other religions should not, cannot be blended, included, into Islam. The laws of each are opposed to each other, their goals are not in common.
Some will lack knowledge of the extent of the laws to which each religion is bound by.
How then do you broker an invitation of 'inclusion' to Americans who are non-believers of Islam? Outside of Islam, we remain infidels.

America, which respects all religions and provides for their legal rights here, with no punishment or segregation of the non believer and has extended equal rights to all, endures this most disrespectfull term of non-believer, infidel.
This most literal practice of inclusiveness appears to be strangely absent from this religion which enjoys it's very freedom under the laws of the ones they disparage.

Inclusiveness is an incorrect word choice, I believe, in the context of your speech. But an overture to Americans whose support you now seek.

Neither Islamic law nor Muslim rule in this country provided our freedom of religion. This legal right, binding by law, is rooted in a recognition of the damage which could be done when a government used religious practices to facilitate itself. No attempt should be made by any religion to do so.

American's then and now recognized there are and will be multiple ways a diverse people will desire to honor their God. It is not fitting Sir that you approach American's with careful words asking for inclusion and acceptance of your religion.
It betrays that perhaps you are not a man elected by American's but by Muslim's. If that is so, it is ex-clusiveness not inclusiveness and cannot with sincerity seek support.
Your invitation carefully examined I find lacking in recriprocial respect by those who say the majority has not been fair.
Our Constitution justly provides the majority rule.

I suggest you put away the political talk of inclusion, represent those who elected you, that's what they elected you for.
Reaching beyond your constituents is premature. Have others newly elected asked for inclusion? You've succeeded so far. Did you have something else in mind?

Dear Mr. Ellison,
Being a first Muslim congressman places a great responsibility on your shoulders. Seven million Muslims who are living peacefully in the US today are being judged by the terrorist act of 11 hijackers. You have an opportunity to show the world what the true Islam stands for. Please do not waste it. I wish you all the best.

Great article, sir.

Your point is that the US squanders so much wealth -- it really has plenty -- if used wisely and efficiently -- to share with its poor on healthcare.

I agree wholeheartedly. (My tax bracket is supposed to make me a Republican, but I could never be that greedy.)

Still:
Scarcity is going to be a problem -- especially when you consider the US - -with 5% of the population is consuming some 25% (5 times) the world's average. (The miracle of the loaves story will not be very applicable here.)

We need to be thinking globally: Should we not think about the world's poor-- not just the US's poor?

That does not mean I disagree with anything you said -- I am just taking it to the next level.

(PS. Enjoyed the article in the WP about you using an old copy of the Koran once owned by Thomas Jefferson. It was a clever way to disarm some Christian fundies...)

Again, thanks.

(PS. I am an atheist. Don't forget us. Actually I am just happy if you don't attack us... Smile.)

The enemy is not members of one religion or another but those who are motivated by hatred and fear; those who would separate religions, races, sexes based on artificial barriers and distinctions. Those whose real religion is hatred and fear have no place in the new world that is taking shape.

I choose to be on the side of those who look at another person and say "you are my brother or sister". So I say to one and all:

To the Jew: Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Ehad.

To the Christian: The Lord is my Shepherd...

To the Muslim: Allah Hu Akbar.

To the atheist: May the light of reason lead you to the truth.

To the Buddhist: May compassion and loving kindness for all sentient creatures light your way.

To the Hindu: Hari Krishna. Hari Rama.

Where is the troll flush button?

To Victoria:

I am not a Christian as you can see from my name, but I certainly hope that Christians have as their first loyalty their faith just as I hope that secularists have as their first loyalty whatever it means to them to be a moral and ethical person, because the fact is that no one's "country" (as acted out in what government leaders do and what a country's policies are) is always correct or always acts morally. it seems to me that a moral citizenry - whether deriving those morals from their various faiths or from other sources of morality - is what urges their representatives to act morally. I would think we've all had times when we've been very proud of how our country and our leaders have acted and at times very ashamed. I would hope that enough of us retain the ability to judge what is right and wrong independent of what our political leaders say and I am more trusting frankly of people from other religious and ethical traditions who view their responsibilities as citizens this way than I am of co-religionists who allow themselves to get swept up into frenzied unthinking patriotism even when the actions of our government warrant just the opposite - self-critique and change through political advocacy and elections.

Anyway, I know I am not the source you are seeking, but you hit on something that I think is important.

Peace.

To the guy that said that swearing on the Kuran was off-putting to him: swearing on the bible is equally off-putting to the rest of us, but we don't complain.
I couldn't care less what book someone swears on, so long as it means something to him. Frankly, if I had to swear on the bible, it would mean very little to me and people would have been right to suspect that my motives were impure.
And a final word as a Jew - congradulations on getting in there.

>>>>>TO: ANONYMOUS...forget prehistory all outright modern campaigns of human ethinic cleasing were fostered and engineered in Europe by Chirstians...from Stalin, the Holocaust, Bosnia to Kosovo on Christian grounds in front of the eyes of Christian Europe and they did nothing in THIS modern day and age. No Muslim nation or people have done this. So NO ONE can talk about any direction that Islam is headed when the world of the followers of Christ (I am being polar in my approach as to ANONYMOUS' persception of Islam and apply it to Christianity) are advacing toward raw ethnic hate and acting on it. Their priests as personalities of refuge pray on young boys and have been doing so for who knows how long. It was the followers of Christ who with no mercy for humanity looked below to Hiroshima and Nagosaki and drop a bomb targeting NO MILITARY TARGET BUT EXCLUSIVELY CIVILIANS INNOCENT CIVILIANS THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF THEM. This was and official government sponsored plan to kill masses of innocent humans by intent and execution!! What Islamic nation has done anything like this.. And now we all cry and all hell breaks loose cuz some rag head killed 6K in 9/11 of which Muslims were also killed?? It is the Christians who enslaved the humans of darker skin color, humans with two arms, legs, ears and eyes just like them but their skin was of darker color. It is the followers of Christ who oppress women, young women at first in showing their bodies and leading them to porn, it is in Christ following counties in which porn is one of largest and fastest growing industries. It is in lands of Christ that proliferated rampant drug use, violent street crime, massive massive levels of greed cheating stealing from the pockets of the innocents in the largestg cased of Corporate malfeasance known to man!!!!! Youre a joke!!!

I heard on c-span today that there is a buddhist in the senate and a buddhist in the house-
alhamdoulilah we are moving forward so that our representatives are starting to look a bit like the actual constituency-

IM ASKING BECAUSE I DONT KNOW-

WHAT DO CHRISTIANS HAVE ALLEGIANCE TO FIRST?
CHRIST OR THEIR COUNTRY?

just curious not wanting to start a war

would any christians care to respond?

The phrase "so help you God" at the end of the sweaaring in ceremony for the Presidency was not in the original text that George Washington read from - he added it on his own.

References to God may be troubling to people who fear that religion is inherently intolerant, but the Founding Fathers of this country almost universally appealed to and referenced God and divine Providence without using more explicitly sectarian language like "Jesus said" or "the Bible says" etc. I think they were rightfully careful on this point and I think Ellison, Lieberman, and other religious representatives who invoke religious principles in some of their speeches are following that tradition well.

I think the explicit call to morality in this country by political leaders is a positive thing (as long as they practice what they say!) as long as they do not try to make their religion the religion of the land or try to use the offices and funds of government to prosthelytize for a specific faith.

Peace.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

THE PERSON RESPONDING AS ANONYMOUS IS DOING SO BECAUSE EVERYTHING HE IS WRITING IS FALSE AND LIE. HE IS SOURCING ANTI ISLAMIC SITES WORD FOR WORD.

HIS KORANIC SITING ARE GROSSLY TOTAL FABRICATIONS JUST PICK UP ANY KORAN..THEY ARE ALL THE SAME THE KORAN HAS NO ALTERNATE TESTMENTS. YOU WILL NOT FIND ANYTHING HE IS PRINTING.

THE TIME LINE HE HAS LIST IS INCREADIBLY FALSE, SO MUCH SO IT IS AS HE MADE IT UP ON THE SPOT..NO WONDER HES ANONYMOUS!!!

While I still get mildly annoyed when I read hateful messages regarding my religion, I now feel mainly sorry for those who write them. If you believe that we Muslims - making up 1/5 of the global population (with less than 15% of us living in the Arab world by the way) - are all out to get you, you must live in real fear. I hope you get over it before it consumes you completely.

I am disturbed by the victim mentatlity of certain religious communities - I find that both my fellow-Muslims and Jews in particular are the two faith communities that most talk about ourselves as victims and I think when we do that we become too ready to blame others for our collective plights But this is a far cry from feeling like I need to apologize for violent people who claim to believe in the same faith I do - any more than I expect others to take repsonsibilities for the fanatics in their ideological or religious communities. You take responsibility for yourself and, to a lesser extent, for those whose actions you can influence positively. I doubt any of us is really close enough to the fanatics in their communities to really change their behavior and those of us who are on this blog sound as if we buy what the fanatics are preaching.

Someone asked for sources on Islam that provide a different and more soundly researched view than what some are espousing here. I suggest to you any of the books written by John Esposito, Karen Armstrong (both devout Catholics), Seyed Hossein Nasr (slightly more dense to read than the others), or, for a compendium review of major faith traditions, the World Religions review by Huston Smith. Re: Muslims in America, the latest book by former Chicago Tribune Religion Editor Geneive Abdo titled "Mecca and Main Street" is informative and easy to read.

As for Ellison, I like any politician who talks with conviction about the income gaps in this country. There are different approaches to take on the issue and Republicans and Democrats tend to pursue different approaches, but I for one am glad to see secularists as well as the religiously devout (including several of the more politically-influential evangelical churches in the U.S.) focusing more attention on working across political and ideological differences to fight poverty, AIDS, and to try to expand healthcare coverage rather than staying focusing almost exclusively on hot-button issues that get framed in completely polarizing ways - i.e. abortion, gun control, etc. I see this constructive move on both sides of the aisle and from diverse ideological perspectives and I am happy with it. I hope we reward such representatives by re-electing them when their current terms come to an end.

Peace to you all.

America and the rest of Western Civilization are about as tolerant as human societies are likely to ever get. I know Keith Ellison has little influence over them, but perhaps he could speak out about the intolerance that emanates from every Muslim controlled society on Earth, towards women, gays, non-Muslims, you name it. To criticize tolerant America while ignoring the glaring intolerance of the Muslim world, Mr. Ellison is guilty of a glaring hypocrisy, to say the least.

First of all, congratulations to Congressman Ellison, who appears to be a man of tremendous grace and civility. As a graduate of the University of Virginia, I must admit it especially pleased me that you chose to use Mr Jefferson's Qu'ran at your swearing in!

In response to the comment of Jake (much earlier!) who complained that according to Islam, a man must be a Muslim first, and then a man, etc.: so what is your point? I believe Christians are expected to act, first and foremost, as Christians--not as, say, Americans or Canadians or Spaniards or Serbs or whatever. And, in case you're not sure how Christians are, universally, expected to act (and don't wish to spend several hours reading the gospels), Howard Evans' post might offer you some clues . . . . As one who tries (with uneven success) to be a Christian, I am horrified by the vitriol spewed here by others who claim to be followers of Jesus . . . .

--------------------------------------------------------------
LET NUMBERS* DO ALL THE TALKING
--------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
CATHOLICS
--------------------

Population Number: 61,207,914
Population Percentage: 19.90 %
** Members in Congress & (%): 15 (28)
** Senators: 25

----------------
BAPTISTS
----------------

Population Number: 15,851,756
Population Percentage: 12.90 %
** Members in Congress & (%): 72 (13.5)
** Senators: 8

--------------------------
U. METHODISTS
--------------------------

Population Number: 8,367,631
Population Percentage: 8.20 %
** Members in Congress & (%): 65 (12.1)
** Senators: 12

----------------------------
JEWS / JEWISH
----------------------------

Population Number: 5,000,000
Population Percentage: 1.78 %
**Members in Congress & (%): 37 (6.9)
**Senators: 10

----------------
Muslims
----------------

Population Number: 7,000.000
Population Percentage: 2.46 %
** Members in Congress & (%): 0 (0)
** Senators: 0

----------------------------------
AFRICAN-AMERICANS
----------------------------------

Population Number: 34,410,418
Population Percentage: 12.10 %
** Members in Congress & (%): 37 (6.9)
** Senators: 0

------------------
HISPANICS
------------------

Population Number: 32,704,116
Population Percentage: 11.50 %
**Members in Congress & (%): 18 (3.4)
**Senators: 0

------------
NOTES:
------------

* As per 2001

** 107th Congress: 2000

** Harris poll 2000: Population Percent

** Religious Population and Representation: Americans for Religious Liberty

** Congress Remains Almost 90% White

** Muslim Population According to CAIR.: 7 Million

** There are no Buddhists, Hindus or Muslims in Congress

** Jewish Senators: (10 — 1 Republican, 9 Democrats) Barbara Boxer (D-CA), Russ Feingold (D-WI), Dianne Feinstein (D-CA), Herb Kohl (D-WI), Joseph Lieberman (D-CT), Carl Levin (D-MI), Charles Schumer (D-NY), Arlen Specter (R-PA), Paul Wellstone (D-MN), Ron Wyden (D-OR)

I am a physician in the richest nation on earth. It pains me to know that we borrowed 400 Billion dollars to invade Iraq as a priority, while for years, we did not put our mind to affording healthcare to 15% of our fellow American citizens. Your course keith is the course that could be stayed. You congress people, for the people, afford every one health care, raise people above poverty level, and then give yourselves all the salary increase you want.

The following has some very long excerpts of which we quote some small segments. Its important to study every word of the excerpts.

"John Quincy Adams Knew Jihad "
By Andrew G. Bostom
FrontPageMagazine.com | September 29, 2004

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=15201

quote

John Quincy Adams possessed a remarkably clear, uncompromised understanding of the permanent Islamic institutions of jihad war and dhimmitude. Regarding jihad, Adams states in his essay series,

“…he [Muhammad] declared undistinguishing and exterminating war, as a part of his religion, against all the rest of mankind…The precept of the Koran is, perpetual war against all who deny, that Mahomet is the prophet of God.”

end quote

quote

Confirming Adams’ assessment, the late Muslim scholar, Professor Majid Khadduri, wrote the following in his authoritative 1955 treatise on jihad, War and Peace in the Law of Islam :

“Thus the jihad may be regarded as Islam’s instrument for carrying out its ultimate objective by turning all people into believers, if not in the prophethood of Muhammad (as in the case of the dhimmis), at least in the belief of God.

end quote

Amen.

ABOUT CANADIAN HEALTHCARE ..

I am a 59 year old Canadian and have had to use the Health Care system on many occassions including the prolonged illness of my first born son who eventually succumbed to Cancer.

I have lived in two different Provinces, I was a parent to 8 different children through two marriages and:

I have never waited more than 30 minutes to see a doctor in an emergency; never waited more than 7 days for a routine Dr appointment, never waited more than 12 hours for important surgery (on my son) or 3 hours for urgent surgery on another son; and never had to pay more than $60 a month for full family health care coverage. And I have always been able to choose my own doctor.

Verse of the Sword 9:5

quote

slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush.

end quote

bin Laden's Fatwa 1998

quote

On that basis, and in compliance with God's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims:

The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it,

end quote

The Koran Verse of the Sword, Adja's statement and bin Laden's Fatwa 1998 all use parallel language. Adja, as the representative of the Caliph said clearly that it was written in the Koran that Islam was at war with the United States, because the US had not submitted to the authority of Islam.

Jefferson and Adams were good lawyers, writers of the Declaration of Independence, and skilled ambassadors. They got down every key element of Adja's statement.

The war we are in now, and the wars in every century of the existence of the United States are because we have not submitted to the authority of Islam as stated to our ambassadors by the ambassador and representative of the Caliph, the supreme authority of Islam, a single unitary religious, military, political and legal entity.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/014596.php

MORE DISCRIMINATION AGAINST NON-BELIEVERS !!

The REAL swearing in by the Speaker of the House should not use any instrument except THE CONSTITUTION and SHOULD NOT INCLUDE THE PHRASE *SO HELP YOU GOD*

After that, and outside any official Government ceremony, members should be able to swear on anything they want.

THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH *GOD* AND STATE SHOULD BE RESPECTED AND DISCRIMINATION THROUGH THE ISOLATION OF NON BELIEVERS SHOULD STOP

Congressman

Congratulations, and THANK your for your courage, compassion, and eloquence.

It is a culturally rich and complicated choice for you to be sworn in on Slave Owner Jefferson's Koran.

It should be a Learning Opportunity for all of us Americans - thanks for having the sensibility and sense of cultural richness to teach the complications of modern American Life.

Good luck, and Best Wishes!!!!

Congressman

Congratulations, and THANK your for your courage, compassion, and eloquence.

It is a culturally rich and complicated choice for you to be sworn in on Slave Owner Jefferson's Koran.

It should be a Learning Opportunity for all of us Americans - thanks for having the sensibility and sense of cultural richness to teach the complications of modern American Life.

Good luck, and Best Wishes!!!!

From what I have heard and read about our new Congressman he seems like a decent man who hopes to do well and make a difference. I say give the man a chance.

You have to admit he has been classy in this incident.

Reading these comments makes me nod and shake my dead and laugh and smile and fear. Pretty good work people!

Congressman,

I find it shocking that people have cricized you for swearing in on the Qu'ran. Did they expect you to swear on the Bible?

I am glad that you stood your ground, for if you had been forced to swear on the Bible, that would have been the death of freedom of religion in the United States.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/014596.php

In 1786 Jefferson and Adams met with Ambassador Adja of Tripoli. Tripoli was part of the
Caliphate, the Ottoman Empire. Thus Adja's words represented the Caliphate, the unitary political, military, religious, and legal entity of Islam.

from Joshua Logan on Adja, Adams, Jefferson meeting

quote

These future United States presidents questioned the ambassador as to why his government was so hostile to the new American republic even though America had done nothing to provoke any such animosity. Ambassador Adja answered them, as they reported to the Continental Congress, “that it was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman who should be slain in Battle was sure to go to Paradise.”

See Hugh Fitzgerald posts at Jihadwatch.org on John Quincy Adams, search John Quincy Adams site:jihadwatch.org

Larry, the ignorant Muslims are the first wave of an evolutionary process. This cycle could be hundreds of years, who knows. But the first wave establishes the cells, has lots of Muslim kids and converts many others. They move the sanitized message out there and leave out any of the more controversial issues in the Quran. A few generations go by and we have lots of Muslims. Eventually, some of them want to know what it really means to be a Muslim. These actually read the Quran, go to the Quranic schools, visit Mecca and are no longer ignorant. They use oil money and other government money from Arab oil rich nations to build more Islamic centers and more Mosques. Finally, we have a significant economic downturn or some other tragic event. Along comes the fundamentalist Muslim leadership and they explain to the faithful that the reason for their bad fortune is because they are not following the true dictates of the Quran. Eventually the moderate Muslims evolve into fundamentalist who, you guessed it, kill and persecute the unbeliever. Why does this happen. Because any belief system will eventually returns to its roots. I agree that Mr. Ellison is ignorant of his faith and that is kind of dangerous, as he misleads many others.

Hmmm. Again I tried putting up a post of violent acts advocated in the bible (specifically sited) and it wasn't allowed. Point is, no religious text can be interpreted literally. And this "Big Brother" action, when there's no profanity or offence, is really too much. Goodbye Post.

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you salute only your brethren, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

There are, apparently, a lot of Christian wannabes posting here who have neither bothered to read the syllabus, nor recall the stand on separation of church and state Yeshua espoused when he said "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's; render unto God that which is God's."

Max Ehrmann, clearly related to you by temperment, if not blood, said "Speak your truth quietly and clearly, and listen to others, even the dull and ignorant – they too have their story. Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit. ... Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive him or her to be. And whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.
With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy."

"By their fruits you shall know them." And so we have come to know you, Congressman Ellison, as the gentleman you are. I note, with some relief, that the majority of posters here believe in public civility and applaud your graceful display of it. I'm sure you will treat the vitriolic minority with the same manners you have already so admirably displayed, just as I am sure that these people see sun and rain only because of God's grace, not because anything in their sorry lives has earned it.

Good words emphasising the importance of tolerance, acceptance, inclusion and generosity. If we put more emphasis on these concepts I think we'd be in a better place. I see in some of the other posts comments that complain about intolerance and exclusion while at the same time appearing, to me, to smack of exactly that, in the same sentences.

In Islam the power to interpret the laws belongs to the Legislature (Ijtihad).
In the past ambitious and powerful men exploited the religion for political gains.
We have seen this happen with every major religion.

What appeals to me about Islam is its universal appeal,its vast diversity,including hundreds of nations and ethinic and linguistic groups.

I think that Islam of America will be different than that in the Old world. The Islam of America will be the perfect balance of piety and modesty coupled with American values of tolerance and freedom.

Sadly, many muslims do not preach such tolerance and inclusion. If only that were the case. Irshad Manji and Ayaan Hirsi Ali, for example, are reformist minded muslims that don't mind telling the truth about standard teaching that one would find in a mosque in this country; intolerance toward non-believers and lack of respect for the constitution of the United States.

My last message was mysteriously censored (for the first time.) "To be reviewed by blog owner." Nothing profane there. I guess Big Brother is watching at the Post.

Every Muslim I have ever known is unfailingly

polite, socialized as they are to keep up a

good front, not matter what.

As to what may happen in private, God only knows,

but I´d hate to find out when they become a

significant minority and take off the mask.

Nice job Anonymous. It's too bad people are unwilling to listen to you. Your research is accurate in what I've scanned.

I've read the Qur'an completely in three translations. It's a very boring and repetitive book that constantly uses pronouns without antecedents.

I lived in Morocco for 10 years where I personally knew Muslims who had left Islam to believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and were imprisoned for their faith. At this time a very tolerant king in Morocco has improved this situation but he's coming under increasing political pressure from Islamists for his leniency. The Islamists use the same Qur'anic texts that you're using to say that the King is not a good Muslim. They don't believe they're taking anything out of context.

I've talked with an educated American Caucasian medical dr in an American mosque who was a convert to Islam and he told me that in keeping with Islam and Jihad, it was his goal to replace the US Constitution with Islamic Law.

I've talked with several American Muslim scholars who have told me that Islamic Law says that the Muslim who apostasizes by leaving Islam to become a Bahai, Jew, Christian, Hindu or anything other than a Muslim is supposed to be killed.

The Muslims who are the most tolerant are ignorant of their faith. Let's hope that Mr Ellison is that type of Muslim.

Yup. Thank God we live in a nation where separation of church and state is a founding principle.

It gets a little wearying trailing anonymous through the same circular arguments over and over again. The line about the crusades is just silly - the crusaders caused massive damage to eastern orthodox christians which is a little hard to argue is in response to muslim agression. But then that line of reasoning is contradicted by the assertion that traditions (or maybe just Christianity) should not be held to historical acts and claims from long ago, then contradicts that assertion by returning to suras that have violent claims as litmus tests for good/bad muslims.

When a muslim practices his faith in a way that contradicts the stereotype, he seems to be either (a) deceitful or (b) a bad muslim. Yet perhaps the practice of millions of american muslims is the most accurate means by which we can understand the faith. The way Congressman Ellison practices it is quite admirable.

We in America do not do as commanded in either the old or new testament. (We rarely stone those who work on the Sabbath, wear clothes of mixed linen and cotton,stone children who mouth off, or practice spilling their seed. We sure as hell don't turn the other cheek, love our neighbors as ourself,or give all we have to the poor and follow him. I don't have great fear that we are going to cut the hands off of thieves or bow five times a day to the southeast.) As to the intolerance of the muslims toward other faiths, yep, they are determined to spread their faith as are the Christians, ever hear of some of the things missionaries have done in the past. Not very nice. At the moment it is the fashion to see Christian missionaries as benificial, kindly spreaders of the word. That hasn't always been true. Ask american indian children ripped away from their parents,forbidden to practice their faith, Ask the victems of liberating Jerusalem,the cathars, the protestants in catholic lands and catholics in protestant countries. Ask the Jews in most countries. The Muslims do not have sole ownership of religious intolerance, there is enough nastiness to go around. I see no difference in villifications of one faith and villifications of races. Yes I have read the Bible, the Koran, and The Torah as well as commentaries on all of them. After doing that I realized I don't believe in any of them, if there is a God, I do not think he or she would have written books so internally inconsistent. I think all the books were written by humans.

Well said anonymous. Islam is the ONLY major world religion that justifies and even advocates the killing of the unbeliever. Jesus never did this but, yes, Mohamed did. So read the Bible, and in the New Testament you will find no justification for killing others. Yet, there are references to killing others in Koran and unfortunately the Koran does not have any New Testament. This is the major problem facing any so called moderate Muslim. In the moderate Muslim's holy book there is nothing that moderates the instructions to kill unbelievers. So to be a moderate Muslim is to say that the Koran does need not be obeyed. That is a conflict that as a Christian I do not face.

It's sad to see so many bigots and Islamophobes on this forum.

To the people who are questioning why Mr Ellison used the Koran, did you ask the same question to other non-Christian members of Congress who didn't use the Bible?

While sadly Mr Ellison is the first muslim elected as a member of Congress, Europe, especially the UK, already has muslim members of parliament.

Why does a muslim have to prove that he's not working with America's enemies? There are three billion muslims in the world, if they all worked with the enemies, I assure you a lot more westerners would've been killed.

And why assume that just because he's a muslim he will destroy America? Did you know that a lot of victims of the Bali bombings, bombings in Iraq and other muslim countries were Muslims?

The fundamentalists hate moderate Muslims as much as they hate Westerners, so we're on the same boat no matter what religion we believe in.

And to the people who say that a Muslim has to prioritize his/her religion over his/her country, how about Indonesia? A country with the most muslim population in the world, but with a secular constitution? In the last election, which Western monitors declared as a free and fair one, the big winners were all secular parties, while all Islamic parties put together only received less than 10% of the votes (and most of them are not radical).

Yes, Indonesia has problems with a small but violent minority of fundamentalists. But the majority is supporting the government's efforts to put these people behind bars.

And who says no Christian put their religion first? Who bombed abortion clinics? And why is it that every election the most hotly debated topics are abortion, gay marriage and stem-cell research, with the people who are opposed to it quoting the Bible? Let fellow Americans do what they want without the Christian Right impose their religion on them.

I'm a non practising Muslim, who doesn't respect muslim clerics anymore than other human beings no matter what their religions are. I don't wear a veil and I never will. I'm opposed to women being forced to wear a veil, but I respect their decision to do it if they do so on their own free will.

But if I was elected as a member of Congress, not only would I use the Koran, but I would also wear a veil on that special day just to upset these bigots.

Here's an interesting article on interpretation:
http://www.sullivancounty.com/identity/bin_laden.html

From Cairo, Beirut and Tehran, and a dozen other centers of fervent Islamic belief, pioneers of Mr. bin Laden's kind of jihad — violent, anti- Western, above all anti-American and anti-Israeli — have called him a coward and an enemy of Islam.

No example is starker than that of Sheik Muhammad Hussain Fadlallah, spiritual leader of Hezbollah, the Lebanon-based Party of God, for 25 years a scourge of Israel and the United States with its suicide bombings and other terror attacks in Lebanon and Israel. After a 1983 truck bombing of a United States Marine barracks near the Beirut airport killed 241 servicemen, American officials accused Sheik Fadlallah of having ordered the attack, an allegation he returned when he blamed the Central Intelligence Agency for a 1985 car bombing outside his Beirut home that killed 75 people.

But Sheik Fadlallah, now 66, has been relentless in his condemnation of the attacks in America.

He preaches that they were "not compatible with Shariah law," the Koranic legal code, nor with the Islamic concept of jihad, and that the perpetrators were not martyrs as Mr. bin Laden has claimed, but "merely suicides," because they killed innocent civilians, and in a distant land, America. In an interview with a Beirut newspaper, Al Safir, Sheik Fadlallah again accused Mr. bin Laden of having ignored Koranic texts.

"There is no concept of jihad as aggressive combat," he said, quoting verses of the Koran that Islamic theologians have argued over for centuries. In misreading these texts, he said, Mr. bin Laden had relied on "personal psychological needs," including a "tribal urge for revenge."

A