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Don’t believe one optimistic word from any public figure about the economy or humanity in general. They are all part of the problem. Its like a game of Monopoly. In America, the richest 1% now hold 1/2 OF ALL UNITED STATES WEALTH. Unlike ‘lesser’ estimates, this includes all stocks, bonds, cash, and material assets held by America’s richest 1%. Even that filthy pig Oprah acknowledged that it was at about 50% in 2006. Naturally, she put her own ‘humanitarian’ spin on it. Calling attention to her own ‘good will’. WHAT A DISGUSTING HYPOCRITE SLOB. THE RICHEST 1% HAVE LITERALLY MADE WORLD PROSPERITY ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE. Don’t fall for any of their ‘humanitarian’ CRAP. ITS A SHAM. THESE PEOPLE ARE CAUSING THE SAME PROBLEMS THEY PRETEND TO CARE ABOUT. Ask any professor of economics. Money does not grow on trees. The government can’t just print up more on a whim. At any given time, there is a relative limit to the wealth within ANY economy of ANY size. So when too much wealth accumulates at the top, the middle class slip further into debt and the lower class further into poverty. A similar rule applies worldwide. The world’s richest 1% now own over 40% of ALL WORLD WEALTH. This is EVEN AFTER you account for all of this ‘good will’ ‘humanitarian’ BS from celebrities and executives. ITS A SHAM. As they get richer and richer, less wealth is left circulating beneath them. This is the single greatest underlying cause for the current US recession. The middle class can no longer afford to sustain their share of the economy. Their wealth has been gradually transfered to the richest 1%. One way or another, we suffer because of their incredible greed. We are talking about TRILLIONS of dollars which have been transfered FROM US TO THEM. All over a period of about 27 years. Thats Reaganomics for you. The wealth does not ‘trickle down’ as we were told it would. It just accumulates at the top. Shrinking the middle class and expanding the lower class. Causing a domino effect of socio-economic problems. But the rich will never stop. They just keep getting richer. Leaving even less of the pie for the other 99% of us to share. At the same time, they throw back a few tax deductible crumbs and call themselves ‘humanitarians’. Cashing in on the PR and getting even richer the following year. IT CAN’T WORK THIS WAY. Their bogus efforts to make the world a better place can not possibly succeed. Any 'humanitarian' progress made in one area will be lost in another. EVERY SINGLE TIME. IT ABSOLUTELY CAN NOT WORK THIS WAY. This is going to end just like a game of Monopoly. The current US recession will drag on for years and lead into the worst US depression of all time. The richest 1% will live like royalty while the rest of us fight over jobs, food, and gasoline. So don’t fall for any of this PR CRAP from Hollywood, Pro Sports, and Wall Street PIGS. ITS A SHAM. Remember: They are filthy rich EVEN AFTER their tax deductible contributions. Greedy pigs. Now, we are headed for the worst economic and cultural crisis of all time. Crime, poverty, and suicide will skyrocket. SEND A “THANK YOU” NOTE TO YOUR FAVORITE MILLIONAIRE. ITS THEIR FAULT. I’m not discounting other factors like China, sub-prime, or gas prices. But all of those factors combined still pale in comparison to that HUGE transfer of wealth to the rich. Anyway, those other factors are all related and further aggrivated because of GREED. If it weren’t for the OBSCENE distribution of wealth within our country, there never would have been such a market for sub-prime to begin with. Which by the way, was another trick whipped up by greedy bankers and executives. IT MAKES THEM RICHER. The credit industry has been ENDORSED by people like Oprah Winfrey, Ellen DeGenerous, Dr Phil, and many other celebrities. IT MAKES THEM RICHER. Now, there are commercial ties between nearly every industry and every public figure. IT MAKES THEM RICHER. So don’t fall for their ‘good will’ BS. ITS A LIE. If you fall for it, then you’re a fool. If you see any real difference between the moral character of a celebrity, politician, attorney, or executive, then you’re a fool. No offense fellow citizens. But we have been mislead by nearly every public figure. WAKE UP PEOPLE. THEIR GOAL IS TO WIN THE GAME. The 1% club will always say or do whatever it takes to get as rich as possible. Without the slightest regard for anything or anyone but themselves. Reaganomics. Their idea. Loans from China. Their idea. NAFTA. Their idea. Outsourcing. Their idea. Sub-prime. Their idea. High energy prices. Their idea. Obscene health care charges. Their idea. The commercial lobbyist. Their idea. The multi-million dollar lawsuit. Their idea. The multi-million dollar endorsement deal. Their idea. $200 cell phone bills. Their idea. $200 basketball shoes. Their idea. $30 late fees. Their idea. $30 NSF fees. Their idea. $20 DVDs. Their idea. Subliminal advertising. Their idea. Brainwash plots on TV. Their idea. Vioxx, and Celebrex. Their idea. The MASSIVE campaign to turn every American into a brainwashed, credit card, pharmaceutical, love-sick, celebrity junkie. Their idea. All of the above shrink the middle class, concentrate the world’s wealth and resources, create a dominoe effect of socio-economic problems, and wreak havok on society. All of which have been CREATED AND ENDORSED by celebrities, athletes, executives, entrepreneurs, attorneys, and politicians. IT MAKES THEM RICHER. So don’t fall for any of their ‘good will’ ‘humanitarian’ BS. ITS A SHAM. NOTHING BUT TAX DEDUCTIBLE PR CRAP. In many cases, the 'charitable' contribution is almost entirely offset. Not to mention the opportunity to plug their name, image, product, and 'good will' all at once. IT MAKES THEM RICHER. These filthy pigs even have the nerve to throw a fit and spin up a misleading defense with regard to 'federal tax revenue'. ITS A SHAM. THEY SCREWED UP THE EQUATION TO BEGIN WITH. If the middle and lower classes had a greater share of the pie, they could easily cover a greater share of the federal tax revenue. They are held down in many ways because of greed. Wages remain stagnant for millions because the executives, celebrities, athletes, attorneys, and entrepreneurs, are paid millions. They over-sell, over-charge, under-pay, outsource, cut jobs, and benefits to increase their bottom line. As their profits rise, so do the stock values. Which are owned primarily by the richest 5%. As more United States wealth rises to the top, the middle and lower classes inevitably suffer. This reduces the potential tax reveue drawn from those brackets. At the same time, it wreaks havok on middle and lower class communities and increases the need for financial aid. Not to mention the spike in crime because of it. There is a dominoe effect to consider. IT CAN'T WORK THIS WAY. But our leaders refuse to acknowledge this. Instead they come up with one trick after another to milk the system and screw the majority. These decisions are heavily influensed by the 1% club. Every year, billions of federal tax dollars are diverted behind the scenes back to the rich and their respective industries. Loans from China have been necessary to compensate in part, for the red ink and multi-trillion dollar transfer of wealth to the rich. At the same time, the feds have been pushing more financial burden onto the states who push them lower onto the cities. Again, the hardship is felt more by the majority and less by the 1% club. The rich prefer to live in exclusive areas or upper class communities. They get the best of everything. Reliable city services, new schools, freshly paved roads, upscale parks, ect. The middle and lower class communities get little or nothing without a local tax increase. Which, they usually can't afford. So the red ink flows followed by service cuts and lay-offs. All because of the OBSCENE distribution of bottom line wealth in this country. So when people forgive the rich for their incredible greed and then praise them for paying a greater share of the FEDERAL income taxes, its like nails on a chalk board. I can not accept any theory that our economy would suffer in any way with a more reasonable distribution of wealth. Afterall, it was more reasonable 30 years ago. Before Reaganomics came along. Before GREED became such an epidemic. Before we had an army of over-paid executives, bankers, celebrities, athletes, attorneys, doctors, investors, entrepreneurs, developers, and sold-out politicians to kiss their asses. As a nation, we were in much better shape. Strong middle class, free and clear assets, lower crime rate, more widespread prosperity, stable job market, lower deficit, ect. Our economy as a whole was much more stable and prosperous for the majority. WITHOUT LOANS FROM CHINA. Now, we have a more obscene distribution of bottom line wealth than ever before. We have a sold-out government, crumbling infrastructure, energy crisis, home forclosure epidemic, 13 figure national deficit, and 12 figure annual shortfall. The cost of living is higher than ever before. Most people can't even afford basic health care. ALL BECAUSE OF GREED. I really don't blame the 2nd -5th percentiles in general. No economy could ever function without some reasonable scale of personal wealth and income. But it can't be allowed to run wild like a mad dog. ALBERT EINSTEIN TRIED TO MAKE PEOPLE UNDERSTAND. UNBRIDLED CAPITALISM ABSOLUTELY CAN NOT WORK. TOP HEAVY ECONOMIES ALWAYS COLLAPSE. Bottom line: The richest 1% will soon tank the largest economy in the world. It will be like nothing we’ve ever seen before. The American dream will be shattered. and thats just the beginning. Greed will eventually tank every major economy in the world. Causing millions to suffer and die. Oprah, Angelina, Brad, Bono, and Bill are not part of the solution. They are part of the problem. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A MULTI-MILLIONAIRE HUMANITARIAN. EXTREME WEALTH MAKES WORLD PROSPERITY ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE. WITHOUT WORLD PROSPERITY, THERE WILL NEVER BE WORLD PEACE OR ANYTHING EVEN CLOSE. GREED KILLS. IT WILL BE OUR DOWNFALL. Of course, the rich will throw a fit and call me a madman.. Of course, they will jump to small minded conclusions about 'jealousy', 'envy', or 'socialism'. Of course, their ignorant fans will do the same. You have to expect that. But I speak the truth. If you don’t believe me, then copy this entry and run it by any professor of economics or socio-economics. Then tell a friend. Call the local radio station. 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It's a great achievement for Islamic leaders and scholars as well as Newsweek and the Washington post to present this imperative opportunity for inter cultural and global philosophical dialogue. What's important is that by exchanging our ideas and comments regarding inter religious relations and world events that affect our views of each other as fellow human beings. Since the advent of humanity, We strove to make sense of the world we live in and the lives we've experienced. Worldwide curiosities to learn the true nature of life and our universe is an exceptionally rare virtue upon life on Earth. In other words, we're the only known species on the planet who've pursued to unravel these great mysteries and developed written philosophies based upon our understanding of the world around us.
One such philosophy that lasted throughout the ages of humanity is commonly known as religion and spirituality. Ever since our early belief in the Sky God and the God Mother from ancient Pagan times, we vigorously pursued to unravel the truth about our most profound questions. As any educated person would know that religion and their core beliefs or faith have evolved over time. Paganism, Monotheism and Polytheism have been influenced by humanity as these great philosophies have influenced our perceptions and decisions in life over the ages. Over time humanity has embraced diverse religious faiths and spiritual convictions that continue to influence our behavior in our times and most likely beyond.
What's vital for humanity's progress and even survival is to know the true nature of faith itself. To understand the true origins of faith. But most of all, is to accept the truth for whatever it may be. Each one of us will learn the absolute truth once we die. But until that time comes for anyone of us to depart this world, we really don't know the answer to God's existence nor do we have the absolute truth in regards to the true nature of God. Besides if we did possess the truth, there would've been only one religion on Earth with no diversification of any way, shape of form. There would only be one holy scripture written throughout human history.
Considering one's religious faith to be absolute, while considering others to be false would be ethnocentric at best. While collectively searching to unravel the mysteries on nature, life and the universe through sincere reasoning and serious research would be enlightening at its worst. Most importantly, we must accept the fact is that none of us have conclusive evidence to confirm our core beliefs and there's always an immanent change that our most cherished beliefs could be wrong. Our greatest challenge would be to tolerate the truth no matter what it may ultimately be. With such an open mind, we would be able to overcome any future discovery that would contradict our faith regarding the true nature of life, spirituality and divinity.
Humanity does have the ability to achieve such a social achievement. However, it's solely up to humanity and not any other entity or groups of entities to decide our destinies. Each one of us has a choice to make; either hopelessly engaging into meaningless inter cultural conflicts or combine our scientific and cultural gifts to thrive into an enlightened global civilization that could ultimately expand beyond our solar system. The choice is yours, and the time to make it is now!

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Keith Ellison is a pig and a racist. Anything he says is a lie.

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you reak what you sow! if they dig lightly and i mean lightly theyll probably find that same physician prescribed his fav-RITE drug also with the physician name on the bottle. that alone should give the judge all the reason to prosecute. WBR LeoP

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Mr Ellison,

I wish you the best of luck in your endeavor as Congressman.

As a person that worked at her state capitol for a few years. I saw how new people were beaten down to play the game of politics. Please hold on to your ideals and not sell out. It is difficult work and easy to succomb to the pressure.

Aziz

In reference to your post..... Posted January 8, 2007 1:39 AM

Thank you.

ANONYMOUS-
you are entirely right about that- that is a major difference in the phiosophy of islam and western thought-
while the emphasis is on the rights of the individual virtually no western thought ever seems to address the needs and rights of society itself- the needs of society are always thoughtlessly subordinated to the needs of the individual- with it seems some disastrous results-this current administration has used the preoccupation of american mentality to over ride completely the rights of this society as a whole.

Now in islam the rights and needs of society are balanced against the rights of the individual-
it creates a different mentality- a more selfless less ego driven mentality-
when i see an abused woman and children- or a helpless homeless person- (or animal) i have a concern for them because the body of society is my own body- andclearly i have concern for my own body- so when i see the teen mother or any others mentioned- i bring my own body into my home and care for it as if it were me(as indeed it is)

ive done this more times than i have fngers and toes and am doing it right this minute-

in the pendulum swing towards 'rugged individualism' the needs of the society have been ignored- it is that me-first attitude that is eating at the core of america-

Rep. Ellison has actually discovered the philosophy that enables him to be such an outstanding public servant-

Islam offers a comprehensive structure that enables both needs to flourish.
peace and salaams

To Deb:

Your argument is flawed. What you are saying people like you are right and all other ones are liar. Does that mean you advocate violent against us. Of course Christian would say Islam is wrong (vice versa) and similarly Jews would say it is wrong (vice versa) that is Muslim are non believer (kafir). Christian would say same thing abt Jews (vice versa). That does not mean go on killing people with opposite view (tolerance). That mean one can still live together even though belief are contradictory. So of course Muslim would call non Muslim non believers (kafir) i.e non Muslim belief are wrong. If they do not that, that mean they are questioning their own belief. Calling someone kafir does not tatamount to violence.
Also submission to someone does not tatamount to violence and God cannot be violent (because if he is violent then he cannot be called God). One of Allah attribute is Merciful.
Before commenting read and think

I admire Ellison on the the stand he took on his faith.I watched him closely in his campaign,and i took an active role in his campaign.He is very articulate person.All these barbs,feud that people are showering on him is just because of his faith.Let's not put much attention on faith and put much emphasis on personality.

True peace and 'generosity' are found only in Yeshua the Christ, the only begotten Son of The Father God.
As Jesus said, the only true peace that is given to men is the peace that He alone gives. Not peace as the world gives which can be taken away.
I disagree with you that the only way to peace is through inclusionism. Even the eastern world does not include everyone.
I sincerely hope that those who are truly seeking for peace and acceptance will look to Yeshua. He is the only true peace that can not be taken away.
Peace!

do not cite maulana maududi- he is the one that inspires the terrorists and doesnt speak for mainstream islam which is why he died in jail in pakistan, for the hate that he spread and the violence he espoused.

"It's obvious that you have never read the Quran. Zaid Shakir and rest of Zaytuna academics and very respected and make many greats points.

Maybe you should bother to actually listen to what they say before dismissing them."

Yeah, right ! This blanket statement that we (non-Muslims) have not read the Quran, is atypical in such debates. We have read the translation of the Quran as in USC-MSA website. There are three English translations (Pickthall, Yusuf Ali and Shakir) available there ayah for ayah and with Maulana Maudoodi's commenatries. So, either all these three are flat liars or else you are a the crook, engaginhg in 'taqiya' with 'kafirs'.

It is one thing to say that one might be "cherry-picking", and quite another that we have not read the Quran, and hence it is implied that we are lying/fabricating.

Well, this attitude will not get Islam very far. The time to kick Muslims out of western Europe and USA is drawing near.

Good luck to Islam !

Congressman Ellison~

It is a beautiful idea; however, it requires a change of heart in the nation. It is hard to legislate a change of heart. So how do you propose bringing your idealism to the people? This can not be done until the people are willing to act more collectively, until we turn away from our rugged individualism and self interest, and start inviting our neighbors, the homeless, the teen mother, people of different races/religions, etc. into our homes.

Excuse my omissions, i replied in haste

Excuse my omissions, i replied in haste

It's obvious that you have never read the Quran. Zaid Shakir and rest of Zaytuna academics and very respected and make many greats points.

Maybe you should bother to actually listen to what they say before dismissing them.

As for my faith, I'm pretty certain I'll stick to Islam and you stick to yours regardless of mind less pseudo intellectual garbage you've been spouting.

The difference between us being that I choose to accept whatever you are without going out of my way to belittle it.

Dialogue blind hatred like yours is futile.

"Well considering you have presented irrefutable evidence, all 1.4 billion Muslim human beings must logically be barbaric and irrational for choosing to believe in such a religion."

Thanks for acknowledging the gravity of the situation. Yes, in my and some of the others views (such as author and WP panelist Sam Harris) it is logically incomprehensible why 1.4 million Muslims follow essentially an antiquated book that commands Muslims to engage in slaughter of those who will oppose Islam. (Again, Muslims will state that I am misquoting Quran, taking it out of context etc. and etc.) Essentially any form of faith is blind and illogical. Such breeds fanaticism and mayhem. This trait has more or less been a part and parcel of Islamic history since 1400 years. There is no reason to comply with the claim that Islam is in any way superior to the so-called "Divine messsage" in other religious traditions. So, when I hear one converting to Islam (out of some mundane personal reason/failing - such as Zaid Shakir), it does come across depressing. One more submission to a jealous, fanatical deity (Allah) who is all poised to destroy those who would not. In my view, it is a shameful act. Maybe you should consider rejecting Islam and embracing rationality instead.

"you will find what you are looking for deb- if youre looking for hatred and violence and barbarity- you will accomplish that end. "

Well, quite frankly I found violence and advocating terror in Quran. Messages of "peace" occassionally interpersed with messages of "violence" and "bloodshed".

you will find what you are looking for deb- if youre looking for hatred and violence and barbarity- you will accomplish that end.

if you are searching for peace and tolerance and the love of ALLAH, that is also what you will find.

i hope your search contains these things.
i wish you peace sincerely

Well considering you have presented irrefutable evidence, all 1.4 billion Muslim human beings must logically be barbaric and irrational for choosing to believe in such a religion.

Thank you for your enlightening discourse

"I know the foundations and details of my religion better then you, I am telling you. If you do not research in a fair and objective manner, you will not come to a reasonable conclusion."

I believe that I have researched in a fair and objective manner about Islam. I agree that there are various sects within Islam as within any religion. But, this diversity does not answer my (and others) question, that, why Osama bin Laden, follower of the puritanical Wahabi sect, can get away ad we have seen almost muted response from other sects within Islam against his tirade with the West.

Similar remarks apply to those Islamic sects who have raised mayhem on the recent Danish cartoons.
We have seen there are those who claim like you that extremism is bad, and yet do not stand upto those who engage in it.

It appears that all these schools of thought whatever are equally valid, that is, they must have been accorded equal status.

So, a fundamentalist, orthodox Muslim and his/her liberal counterpart have similar weightage. This is the problem. Moderates/liberals easily become orthodox and fundamentalist whenever convenient. The line is very blurry, and it does not matter what school of thought (Hanafi/Salafi/Wahabi) you belong to.

This situation defies any reason or logic and does surely lack consistency.

My conclusion: Islam is a barbaric religion. This is the education I have acquired by studying the behavior patterns of Islam/Muslims over the past few years. Other (non-Muslims) have arrived at the same conclusions.

Deb Chatterjee

There are many schools in islam, each with their own take on the religion.

I know the foundations and details of my religion better then you, I am telling you. If you do not research in a fair and objective manner, you will not come to a reasonable conclusion.

Your take on islam is wrong. There's nothing more i can say to you. No one would be muslim if you're saying was true.

Educate yourself.

It is a shame that people seek out forums to express their hatred.

i am happy to see the muslims here responding with such gentility.

i think it is a testament to our good manners that we repay attacks with peaceful rejoinder.

it seems any mention of islam attracts those with questionable agendas and intentions.

PEACE

"wow i never knew that the muslim students ass. of the university of southern california was the vanguard of islamic scholarship. All muslims look to the muslim students ass. of University of Southern California for guidence."

I think that blind defense of Islam (or any faith for that matter) is a problem. Let's see how my comments relate to the above quotes.

1. USC-MSA might certainly not be the vanguard of Islamic scholarship. However, they have provided explanations and commentaries from Maulana Syed Abul ala Maudoodi. (The sources are independently verifable.) This Maudoodi fellow, the founder of Jammat-i-Islam, is a well-respected Islamic scholar in academic circles. His works are well cited for authenticity, and that does lend enough credibility to Maudoodi's views on Islam. USC-MSA thus has not concocted or fabricated any stories or myths on Islam. What does appear is the fact that Muslims are denying the authenticity of Muslim sources quoted and cited in the USC-MSA website. If indeed Maudoodi is wrong, then one of the pillars of Islamic scholarship is false. This rejection of USC-MSA source stems from the pathological urge to defend Islam as the 'dhimmis' and 'kafirs' may use these sources to paint a negative picture that would be humiliating to Islam.

2. A gem that I gathered from USC-MSA website is that ISLAM IS NOT A RELIGION OF PEACE. According to many Muslims (westernized ones) Islam means "peace", but one can gather from USC-MSA website that Islam means "submission". One might (?) extend that to rephrase that Islam means "peace following after submission to the will of Allah". The will of Allah means whatever is in the Quran. So, if one becomes a Muslim (submits to Allah), then s/he is at peace. Islam does NOT preach peace, quite contrary to what we have been told by these westernized Muslims.

"Let people be, everyone should be able to freely believe what they want without your ignorant comments. Citing referrences doesnt change the fact that your factually inaccurate."

If there are factual inaccuracies, then the whole body of the Islamic scholarship is phoney baloney. I have (and USC-MSA has) relied on commentaries from Muslim scholars. So the bo'-bo' comments from you, as quoted above, are signs of intellectual dysfunction. If these sources are indeed inaccurate, then why doesn't the entire Muslim ummah rise up against such falsehood (that is inaccuracy) ? Why they remain so callous and oblivious to such misinformation ? Why only when some non-Muslim (kafir/dhimmi) uses these sources to advance an unpalatable argument against Islam, are these 'inaccuracies', 'slander' etc. and etc. become more important ?

It does appear that Muslims (and this could very well include Rep. Keith Ellison [D-MN]) don't have any respect for Islam, OR, don't know the foundations of Islam very well. Otherwise this imbroglio and impasse over which Muslim source is accurate or not would not have existed.

Latter day sources (such as Karen Armstrong/John Esposito), that paint a glorious picture of Islam, are considered authentic and acceptable. Anything negative is by default wrong. Maybe Rep. Keith Ellison should be asked probing questions about Islam to find out where he stands on the issues, which would justify the "inclusivity" and "exclusivity" aspects which he so proudly professes.

What a profound message from our new junior Congressman. Mr. Ellison's, "Choose Generosity, Not Exclusion" obviously has touched and enraptured many a soul in this forum.

So many voluminous postings, and repetitive posters have quite notibly been moved deeply by this humble servant of Allah, and his faithful constituents.

It moves me to a question that I at first meant to address only to the good Congressman, but after reading the flood of responces I direct my inquiry also to Victoria, Christian Seeker, and of course, you, Aziz.

Q. How does one say B--- S--- in Arabic?

wow i never knew that the muslim students ass. of the university of southern california was the vanguard of islamic scholarship. All muslims look to the muslim students ass. of University of Southern California for guidence.

"The tradition of rape, pillage, loot, arson and murder is intrinsic to Islamic history since Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). He claimed that he had all these granted by Allah who gave him the liberty tgo use them to spread the message. Well, I don't agree that Muhammad received any Divine message. He had an ambition of world domination. To do so, he invented Islam and used it as a vehicle to propagate his message. Viewed in today's knowledge, Islam can surely be characterized as a barbaric religion."

Come off it, i swear it never ends with your sort.

Let people be, everyone should be able to freely believe what they want without your ignorant comments. Citing referrences doesnt change the fact that your factually inaccurate.

the message of christ isnt distint, in fact mohamed, abdulbahai, zoroastra, mosses and abraham have all had the same message.

peace, kindness, charity, compasion,forgivness etc.

consider educating yourself a favor to humanity

Jai Khosla has provided devastating information, and the Sirat Rasul is a English translation by Alfred Guillaume of the earliest biography of Prophet Muhammad by Ibn Ishaq. I have also consulted the University of Southern California (Muslim Student Association) MSA website, but did not know at all that they had omitted some hadiths that would be very embarassing to Muslims (regarding sexual preferences of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and Hadrat Aisha) ! Interesting information, and thanks Jai.

Regarding the rape of non-Muslim women by Muslims (Pakistani) in Bangladesh liberation in 1971, I suggest anyone to read pages 78 to 86 of the following book:

Susan Brownmiller, AGAINST OUR WILL: MEN, WOMEN AND RAPE. Simon & Schuster, 1975. (It's available on Amazon.)

The tradition of rape, pillage, loot, arson and murder is intrinsic to Islamic history since Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). He claimed that he had all these granted by Allah who gave him the liberty tgo use them to spread the message. Well, I don't agree that Muhammad received any Divine message. He had an ambition of world domination. To do so, he invented Islam and used it as a vehicle to propagate his message. Viewed in today's knowledge, Islam can surely be characterized as a barbaric religion.

Jesus Christ was a messenger of peace, and quite unlike Jai Khosla I believe that he was endowed with Divine powers. The message of Christ is distinct from the organized religion known as Christianity. I am not a Christian myself.

Johanna:

Yes some fundamentalist want al Andalusia back but why should that reflect on Muslims as a whole.

Women should wear what they want to wear, whether it's a veil or a skirt where ever. It simply isn't up to you to decide. I am British; i was born in Belgium and have also lived in both Germany and turkey. Europe is my home and I do mind people telling Muslim women not to wear a veil. It should be up to the individual and not you or me.

Who is trying to set up sharia law in Europe, and what form of sharia is this. There seems to this misunderstanding about sharia. Sharia means law in Arabic and in reference to Islam, which particular form of sharia is these people attempt to instate. The sharia you mustly hear about is the Wahabi form, islam is not homogenous.

It's important to recognize that Muslims are people and people have to right to exist as they may and not as you want them. The same applies to all peoples of all beliefs.

However, I do agree that the state and religion should kept separate.

Surely Johanna you are not so unaware of islam that you really think that women wear the hijab because of dust and sun--- i live in new york- my grandmother was born in uttenwelier- and i am a convert to islam- and there is no strong sun here and hardly any wind- and i never go outside without it. The new racism in Europe is nothing to be proud of- you havent stated your religion but i suspect youre a christian- which is fine- did you know that in a muslim country the muslims would have to fight and die to protect YOUR safety?
Can you think of any religion that does such a thing for people of another religion?
I dont know what your sources of information in Germany about muslims are- but i know theres a great influx of turks there- a secular country full of muslims- the world is getting smaller Johanna- and we all have to become more- not less- tolerant- but its nothing that a little education and dialogue wont fix- (not insinuating youre not educated Johanna- i mean all of us).
When you see Mary(ata) the mother of Jesus(ata)represented- you see her head covered like mine- i even wear light blue and pink and white all the time and people are always asking me if im a nun- if you saw me youd probably think i was a relative and for all i know i might be-(frandma was a Marquardt). I really hope you find in your journey of life a good muslim lady to have a conversation with- even Pope John Paul II prayed in a mosque in Damascus- and invited Khatami- the PM of Iran to the Vatican- a first in catholic history- do you know that Mary(ata) is THE most respected woman in Islam? We love and respect so mny of the same values and people- the patriarchs-Jesus(ata) and god whom we call ALLAH- but its the same God. The jewish people call God Elohi (elohim is plural) the aramaic word Jesusu(ata) used for God is ALlaha- we believe in peace- family- modesty- honesty and prayer-the same as you- please give people in your community a chance-we all have to live together and if this war keeps up the earth may get smaller still.
PEACE

Having seen Keith speak in MN and knowing what I do of him, I can't fathom what planet these intolerant bigots come from to push this dogmatic anti-Muslim hatred. None of them are Christian by their actions! Keith is not here to impose Sharia or take over Christendom, but to offer a hand up to the minorities and poor who elected him. If you give a damn about the teachings of Jesus, allow the man to continue his politics of peace and kindness and show the nation how committed he is.

Having arrived late to this blog, I'm not ready to enter the fray in its entirety, but I do find myself intrigued by the communication patterns themselves. It seems to me that the discourse here is falling victim to the same type of thing I so often encounter within circles that purport to be arenas for discussion of issues of Christian faith, namely that the discussion of actual issues gets hijacked by dogmatic pronouncements. The issue that I see Rep. Ellison having invited us all to discuss is "We need a politics of generosity based on the reality of abundance as opposed to a politics of not-enough." Discussion of that issue might follow lines like "Do I agree that that is what we need? Why or why not?" or "Can a story that Christians regard as 'sacred' and that Muslims revere provide adequate ground for ethical truth-seeking by religious and non-religious persons alike?" Obviously there are more and weightier issues that Rep. Ellison also raises, and I grieve that the discussion here so often devolves into name-calling, finger-pointing, etc. I know that pattern too well among people who claim the same religious tradition that I do, and all it really does is ensure that an authentic search for truth doesn't take place.

Is there a way to live out a politics of generosity within a secular culture? My religious values embrace generosity as an essential virtue, without which my religious faith is inadequate. Within my own religious tradition, generosity is good because being generous is behaving the way God does. When God is not the motivation, though, how is generosity good (I ask this not to accuse the non-religious of being ungenerous, but truly to ask, what IS the motivation to generosity?)?

Aziz:

Do you mean that the "Guardian"/the British Police/MI5 are all lying?

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1984530,00.html

I am German, have lived and worked in the United States and receive U.S. pension benefits, supplementing my German retirement benefits. My husband is Japanese-American, and we live in Germany.

I shall not tolerate anyone who tries to establish the Sharia, especially not in Western countries.

Turkey is trying to join the EU. Al Kaida is trying to recapture Spain, all through islamists.

And, yes, I do mind seeing all the millions of headscarves/niqabs in Europe.

Muslims should just integrate or assimiliate. The sun is not so strong and the dust is not flying like in the Orient which would warrant covering up.

Beliefs and the State should be two separate entities.

Well I'm a Muslim from Europe and I'll tell you experience. The millions of normal Muslims get no attention from the media. We are told how to dress and are harassed everywhere. Our opinions arent shown on the media.

However, the moment a nutcase says anything, it's all over the media and the nutcase is portrayed as a representative of all Muslims.

End of the day, if its not religion then its color. If its not color, its ethnicity.
ETC ETC

People please let go of this crap.

no johanna- anonymous is a hater and a coward who wont even show their name- i stay away from hate

would you think it better to return hate with hatred? ive tried kindness and patience
now only indifference will work

> i havent read a post of theirs yet

You should...

>as long as people have something outside themselves to blame

That is the problem, at least with many Muslims in Europe.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1984530,00.html

yes aziz- as long as people have something outside themselves to blame- they never have to look at their ownactions- they never ask any questions-

just ignore anonymous i havent read a post of theirs yet like attracts like
let the headbangers bang

Seems to me that everyone needs the enemy from without instead of asking why in the US you spend so much on the military industrial complex yet you have poor healthcare provisions, poor education and poor distribution of wealth.

So blame muslims and see that helps your country. Democracy has been erroded through the teaching of hate and fear by your media and government.

Anonymous cited from Jihadwatch.

Here is the article from "The Guardian" and another article from CBN News:

>Revealed: preachers' messages of hate

Muslim worshippers are being urged by radical clerics to ignore British law

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1984530,00.html

Make Way for the Mega-Mosque
By Dale Hurd
CBN News
January 9, 2007
CBNNews.com - LONDON - Some now call London the "Muslim capital of Europe."
No Western city has more mosques.
And now London could be home to the largest Mosque outside of the Middle East.<

http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/83805.aspx

disturbing statistics form a christian site linked to islamaphobiawatch

as of jan 9 updated every 15 minutes

Do you consider Islam to be a peaceful religion? Yes 15,536 No 203,916
Do you consider Islam to be a tolerant religion? Yes 8,923 No 210,089
Would America be a better country if it were a Muslim country? Yes 1,595 No 217,282
Should America place equal emphasis on the Koran and the Bible? Yes 5,671 No 212,703
Would it be good for America to have more Muslims in elected offices? Yes 5,626 No 212,089
Would you vote for a Muslim for president? Yes 5,055 No 212,995
As a general rule, are women treated better in America than in a Muslim country? Yes 199,911 No 18,316
Is America too dependent on Muslim countries for oil? Yes 209,974 No 8,212
Do Muslim countries do more than America to help the poor? Yes 5,646 No 211,087
(updated every fifteen minutes)

its a little scary

> To every reasonable person on this forum, this is what we as the people of this planet have to contend > with. Doesn't matter where they come from or what religion they claim. All they do is hate and come up > with more ways to be divisive. Don't fall for it.

Exactly. In every country, religion, ethnic group there are agents of darkness stirring up fear, hatred and anger; trying to get others to join them. There are also agents of light, those who look to transcend arbitrary divisions and join as one human race with apparent differences enriching the whole.
People have to choose whether or not to embrace darkness or light.

I don't see the point in this anti Islamic propaganda from jihad watch.

Muslims and non Muslims live together all over the world. So what are you implying? All Muslims should be got rid off? All Muslims will potentially kill you?

People like you make me sick; you're simply the western counterparts of jihadists. I mean you seriously must hate to a) set up a website which misinforms so much, its amazing, b) take the time to join discussion board and rant and c) be incapable of accepting another persons beliefs or even that they are humans who are complex enough to have opinions based on something other than their religion.

The only difference between you and any terrorist is the banner you carry, you're all scum. Some use religion, some use nationalism and other 'us and them' ploys. However, Americans need to bear in mind, you class those amongst you who are extreme as extreme but due to a small number of Muslims, you class all Muslims and Islam as extreme, murderous and oppressive.

To every reasonable person on this forum, this is what we as the people of this planet have to contend with. Doesn't matter where they come from or what religion they claim. All they do is hate and come up with more ways to be divisive. Don't fall for it.

Muslims are here to stay and if you want to keep the impression that you are informed about Islam, remember non believers are classified as idol worshipers and not Christians and Jews, suicide and murder is a major sin and women have as much rights as men. It's the culture which has chosen to ignore women's rights, modern political situation have resulted in suicide bombers with some people condoning and not the Quran.

Wow, anyone still reading these posts?

As a constituent of Congressman Ellison in Minnesota's 5th Congressional District, let me first say thank you to all the well wishers for their kind words and encouragement expressed for Keith Ellison.

For the record, Keith is a self-described "moderate Muslim." He's pro-choice; in favor of marriage equality for our GLBT brothers and sisters; pro-Labor rights, pro-Free Trade, and against the death penalty. Stop me when this starts to sound like some kind of radical religious agenda!

I know Keith personally, helped him get elected, watched the amazing coalition build around him during the campaign: people of different faiths & ethnicities; labor, environmental, and GLBT groups; new immigrants and senior citizens; rich and poor, etc. He took Minnesota by storm because he articulated of vision of unity and inclusiveness that the 5th District (and our nation) needed more than ever.

Keith won the election because he spoke up against an immoral war in Iraq ("peace must be the guiding principle of our nation"), because he believes that working people deserve a living wage and affordable health care ("everyone counts & everybody matters"); and because he practices the "politics of Hope, not Fear."

To those who worry about the symbolic swearing in ceremony using the Qur'an, please remember that no words were actually uttered in oath - it was a photo op. Keith, like all of the U.S. Congress are actually sworn in on the floor of the U.S. House of Representatives, and in that OFFICIAL ceremony they swear to up hold the U.S. Constitution (still one of the greatest legal document/work in progress in the history of humanity). So relax: his heart is pure, his mind is clear, and his devotion to the Constitution is pre-eminent.

To my fellow friends in the Progressive community in the U.S., I can only say that Minnesota has once again brought a kind, decent, gentle Old Soul to Washington. And just like Paul Wellstone, we are willing to share him with the rest of the nation. Take care of him, pray for him if that is your way, keep him in your thoughts. Because it's been an amazing and rigorous road he's traveled, even though he's just getting started. But he's going to give you everthing he's got, and that is his true gift to our country.

From Jihad Watch:

An undercover investigation has revealed disturbing evidence of Islamic extremism at a number of Britain's leading mosques and Muslim institutions, including an organisation praised by the Prime Minister.

Secret video footage reveals Muslim preachers exhorting followers to prepare for jihad, to hit girls for not wearing the hijab, and to create a 'state within a state'. Many of the preachers are linked to the Wahhabi strain of Islam practised in Saudi Arabia, which funds a number of Britain's leading Islamic institutions.

A forthcoming Channel 4 Dispatches programme paints an alarming picture of how preachers in some of Britain's most moderate mosques are urging followers to reject British laws in favour of those of Islam. Leaders of the mosques have expressed concern at the preachers' activities, saying they were unaware such views were being disseminated.

At the Sparkbrook mosque, run by UK Islamic Mission (UKIM), an organisation that maintains 45 mosques in Britain and which Tony Blair has said 'is extremely valued by the government for its multi-faith and multicultural activities', a preacher is captured on film praising the Taliban. In response to the news that a British Muslim solider was killed fighting the Taliban, the speaker declares: 'The hero of Islam is the one who separated his head from his shoulders.'

Another speaker says Muslims cannot accept the rule of non-Muslims. 'You cannot accept the rule of the kaffir [non-Muslim],' a preacher, Dr Ijaz Mian, tells a meeting held within the mosque. 'We have to rule ourselves and we have to rule the others.'

Yet more examples of officially declared (by blind, apologist idiots like you lot on here) moderate Muslims!

Know that America's so called moderate mosques and so called moderate Muslim insititutions are all exactly the same!

Islam has no place in The West. It is a political, extremist,anti-democracy death cult.

@ Gaby

Well said!

Congressman Ellison,

You sound like a very nice man and wish you all the best.

But, what I wish most for is that you and every other member of Congress leave you faiths behind when you step into your office and start to legislate. Do your best to represent your constituency being influenzed ony by the Constitution, the Law, and the well-bing of America.

Religion has no place in legislation.

Representative Ellison, I am a nontheist who happily (and hopefully) voted for you, who was thrilled by your victory, and who supports everything you have said and done so far as our congressional representative. I don't expect to always support every single thing you do, as reasonable people can differ; but if you continue on the path of integrity and caring that you have started on, I will always support you.

Hello from the 5th District. I was proud to vote for you, and I'm proud to be represented by you. Thanks for the excellent editorial.

Congressman Ellison,

What a wonderful statement! I'm liking you more and more. You are already becoming the moral voice of the new Congress. Congratulations on your election; I look forward to hearing much more for you over the next few decades! Best,

-- Joel Bloom
Albany, NY

Your words are wise and compassionate, Rep. Ellison. Born into a Christian family, when I grew up I studied all of the major religions. I found that the same spirit informed them all. The messages of compassion and brotherly love were common threads among them.

These messages have clearly been lost to many who call themselves religious. I'm confident that one day they will be heard. Thank you for speaking to make that day arrive sooner rather than later. Like you, I'm firmly convinced that the modern world has the resources to eliminate poverty, and only lacks the will. The money we've spent on Iraq alone would provide for years of medical coverage for 40 million Americans.

Best wishes for your service to our country.

From the look of this forum and other forums, apparently most of you dont.

> If I meet an American, I do not hate, I do not make them feel like an enemy, I treat them like
> anyone else. Why can't you Americans do the same?

Some of us do that already.

I am not American, but for the life of me, I cannot understand how the country of Martin Luther King, the country which espouses liberty and justice for all and the land in which there is supposed to be freedom of religion. People are judging this man before he has done anything in his post just because he's a Muslim.

The only logical conclusion I have arrived to is that America is the land of hypocrisy. Your country has had a hand in the deaths of 600,000 innocent people in Iraq, and has the balls to judge a religion on the basis that some of the people who claim to be Muslims are nuts and murderous. Well stop being hypocrites and adhere to your constitution.

All religions have had murderous elements in their communities. And all ideologies and religions would look crazy if all you do is misquote their texts and state their atrocities out of context or analysis because you want to paint them as killers.

You want find killers; look at your own backyard. From:
1. Gulf of Tonkin
2. Agent Orange
3. Vietnam
4. Cambodia
6. Too many South American countries to list

Providing support for dictators and placing them in power:
1. Uzbeckstan
2. Iran thru the Shah
3. Iraq
4. Saudi Arabia
5. Chile
7. Indonesia

Causing famine through the IMF's Structual Adjustment Program and the WTO.

Basically this is all just the tip of the iceberg. I could go on forever.

My point is nothing is good or even decent when a person only presents what they want to. Almost anything can look evil. But life more complicated then that.

Americans to need:

1. Judge people on their character and not their religion, color or anything else.

2. Stop making neat little catagories for everything to in fit into and take the time to appreciate the comlexity of things.

3. Value all human beings lives are equal to their own, anyone getting killed is just as bad as an American getting killed.

4. Get a free and open media.

5. Educate yourselves about other people.

And when people people state their hatred for America, 9 out of 10 times, they hate your government and not you the people. They hate what your government has done to them. It as nothing to do with Islam, the American government doesn't have alot of fans.

If I meet an American, I do not hate, I do not make them feel like an enemy, I treat them like anyone else. Why can't you Americans do the same?

Dear Rep. Ellison

I am so proud of the honorable way you conducted yourself throughout this personal attack. I am so pleased to know we have you in our party. As a former "Independent", you are the very quality that makes the Democratic Party shine so brigh