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It's a great achievement for Islamic leaders and scholars as well as Newsweek and the Washington post to present this imperative opportunity for inter cultural and global philosophical dialogue. What's important is that by exchanging our ideas and comments regarding inter religious relations and world events that affect our views of each other as fellow human beings. Since the advent of humanity, We strove to make sense of the world we live in and the lives we've experienced. Worldwide curiosities to learn the true nature of life and our universe is an exceptionally rare virtue upon life on Earth. In other words, we're the only known species on the planet who've pursued to unravel these great mysteries and developed written philosophies based upon our understanding of the world around us.
One such philosophy that lasted throughout the ages of humanity is commonly known as religion and spirituality. Ever since our early belief in the Sky God and the God Mother from ancient Pagan times, we vigorously pursued to unravel the truth about our most profound questions. As any educated person would know that religion and their core beliefs or faith have evolved over time. Paganism, Monotheism and Polytheism have been influenced by humanity as these great philosophies have influenced our perceptions and decisions in life over the ages. Over time humanity has embraced diverse religious faiths and spiritual convictions that continue to influence our behavior in our times and most likely beyond.
What's vital for humanity's progress and even survival is to know the true nature of faith itself. To understand the true origins of faith. But most of all, is to accept the truth for whatever it may be. Each one of us will learn the absolute truth once we die. But until that time comes for anyone of us to depart this world, we really don't know the answer to God's existence nor do we have the absolute truth in regards to the true nature of God. Besides if we did possess the truth, there would've been only one religion on Earth with no diversification of any way, shape of form. There would only be one holy scripture written throughout human history.
Considering one's religious faith to be absolute, while considering others to be false would be ethnocentric at best. While collectively searching to unravel the mysteries on nature, life and the universe through sincere reasoning and serious research would be enlightening at its worst. Most importantly, we must accept the fact is that none of us have conclusive evidence to confirm our core beliefs and there's always an immanent change that our most cherished beliefs could be wrong. Our greatest challenge would be to tolerate the truth no matter what it may ultimately be. With such an open mind, we would be able to overcome any future discovery that would contradict our faith regarding the true nature of life, spirituality and divinity.
Humanity does have the ability to achieve such a social achievement. However, it's solely up to humanity and not any other entity or groups of entities to decide our destinies. Each one of us has a choice to make; either hopelessly engaging into meaningless inter cultural conflicts or combine our scientific and cultural gifts to thrive into an enlightened global civilization that could ultimately expand beyond our solar system. The choice is yours, and the time to make it is now!

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Victoria:

Thanks for your efforts. I've been busy with work the last few days, so I haven't had a chance to check the board until now.

For your benefit, I did find one link that included some speculative theology:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/dmt/index.htm

I read most of the theology chapters, and while there is some speculative theology documented in these pages, it's all of a particular flavor, ontology, which is concerned with the nature of reality. I personally don't find ontological speculations very interesting or persuasive on the point of religion, but ontology is part of speculative theology. Ontology is a subfield of metaphysics, and I am interested in broader questions of metaphysics. The beginnings of such speuclation appear in these pages. Here is an example:

The soul of man, al-Ghazzali taught, is essentially different from the rest of the created things. We read in the Qur’an (xv, 29; xxxviii, 72) that God breathed into man of His spirit (ruh). This is compared with the rays of the sun reaching a thing on the earth and warming it. In virtue of this, the soul of man is different from everything else in the world. It is a spiritual substance (jawhar ruhani), has no corporeality, and is not subject to dimension, position or locality. It is not in the body or outside of the body; to apply such categories to it is as absurd as to speak of the knowledge or ignorance of a stone. Though created, it is not shaped; it belongs to the spiritual world and not to this world of sensible things. It contains some spark of the divine and it is restless till it rests again in that primal fire; but, again, it is recorded in tradition that the Prophet said, "God Most High created Adam in His own form (sura)." Al-Ghazzali takes that to mean that there is a likeness between the spirit of man and God in essence, quality, and actions. Further, the spirit of man rules the body as God rules the world. Man's body is a microcosm beside the macrocosm of this world, and they correspond, part by part. Is, then, God simply the anima mundi? No, because He is the creator of all by His will, the sustainer and destroyer by His will. Al-Ghazzali comes to this by a study of himself. His primary conception is, volo ergo sum. It is not thought which impresses him, but volition. From thought he can develop nothing; from will can come the whole round universe. But if God, the Creator, is a Willer, so, too, is the soul of man. They are kin, and, therefore, man can know and recognize God. "He who knows his own soul, knows his Lord," said another tradition.

I thought that you'd find this passage from the fourth chapter interesting. While I don't find ontology intrinsically interesting, if it leads to a broader metaphysics, an explanation of the reasons for creation and existence, then I'd take an interest. This begins to wander beyond the confines of questions about the nature of reality to questions of human nature and might develop into something interesting. I'll read the reference in more detail later and see if it points in a new direction for study of possible comprehensive theologies in Islam. I haven't seen enough yet to know if these theologians go beyond ontology, but I'll certainly look.

By the way, I wasn't being keeping this link up my sleeve. I just found it the other day. Take care,

Joseph

youre right joseph- there certainly seems to be a lack of specualtive theology nisalm- as a matter of fact- when i googled it this site came up in about the 12th sire listed- because you used the words together i guess- this is a sad state so i guess its something that is sorely needed...
peace

ooowheee i watched that video on that link you posted i couldnt access it before-
wow what a struggle to watch- dont look at stuff like that- its nonsense- i watched several of them- being intelligent and well spoken doesnt hide the outright hatred in wafa sultan- dont let this ugliness into your consciousness- ive read all oyur links- i try to be fair- if i didnt know islam and that was my source- well its a shame is all-

i posted to share my favorite story- its a hadith related by bukhari- i triple and quadruple checked it- i know it by heart but i did anyway-

there was a woman- she wore hijab(head covering) and dressed modestly- comported herself islamically in every way- prayed every prayer ON TIME- was the model muslimah- BUT- she kept a cat tied to a post- she did not feed or water it and prevented it form procuring its own needs- the cat dies- and the woman died- and went to hell.

there was another woman who was a prostitute-
and she came upon a dog who was very thirsty-
and she gave the dog some water to drink- and for this act of compassion she went to paradise.

i found it interesting that ONE of the 4 stated only that she was forgiven by ALLAH- it seems that someone edited it to mitigate the mercy and forgiveness of ALLAH- maybe they didnt want to allow the prostitute into heaven-
these stories are always told side by side- aybe it bothered some editor that themuslim went to helland the prostitutewent to paradise-
that is precisely why i love these stories somuch-
justice superceds religious boundaries- only the heart is judged- intention intention intention

i think you should look at hanafi-

well did you know that there are many rules and guidances and instructions for the treatment of animals in islam? its quite extensive and precise-
you know gandhi once said that you can judge the compassion of a given society by the way it treats its weakest members- and animals i would venture are the weakest members of our earthly society-
theres too much information to give here but my husband is going to teach me how to post links-

okay time to pray
peace

hello there- wll think i said before- not the bad habits of jews we all have them- just the fact that in all these years it took western influence for them to re-examine their doctrines and adjust it to fit the ideas of equity- if it werent straining to fit theyd have these concepts engrained in their society already- islam had for 1400 hundred years- but that doesnt matter to me- and its petty likely that i will continue in my subjective strain- im not interested in other religions anymore- its old old water under the bridge for me- to even do any comparative studies is a step backward and ive done it so much before that i havent any interest in comparative dialogue- im drawn into it constantly and i want to talk about islam in particular- it is peculiar that you think that there isno speculative theological history of islam- youo need to talk to humans in a mosque- that is what life is all about- we are all constantly speculating- i cant stay ba
ecause its my husbands day off -

also as i assured you i wouldnt use anything as fodder for bias- you discredit me by assuming a bad intention- the point was trust and respect-
ive had far too many convos in my time that end up being occasions for someone venting already held ideas that are negative so when i smell negativity- i retreat as ive had these discussions to many times- i went to look for violence n islam and came upon a full 15 sites before i came to an islamic one- theres alot of media and misinformation about-

ok peace

I never wanted to have the kind of dialogue that's occurred. You insisted on making the conversation about the intrinsically subjective, feelings, and trying to translate feelings into objective criticism. I intended all of the statements that you cited either to provide examples of possibilities for speculative theology in Islam or refute specific claims that you made about the relative merits of Islam and other religions or academic work. (If you claim that Islam is less sexist than Judaism because of the bad habits of some Jews, then I take notice of the bad habits of Muslims. On that basis, there is nothing special about Islam.) For this reason, I asked for a dialogue based on scripture and reason and foresaking the subjective.

When you write that you wonder if I am as neutral as I imagine, I think that you betray your motive for asking for information about my background: you'd like to transform my criticisms, which flow from Muslim texts, into criticisms of me. If my criticisms are so wrong, so bad, you should be able to turn them on me without the aid of information about my background. I didn't solicit any information about you---you offered it in place of arguments---and when you give answers, you have to expect me to criticize them as they relate to the topic of discussion.

While I insist on a discussion that builds arguments on texts, I'm not forcing you into any particular interpretation of the Koran. I'm only asking one, simple question: can you develop a complete and coherent theology from the Koran and Hadiths? I've already said that I cannot develop a theology for Islam. Because I've never met any Muslims who are able to articulate a theology for Islam, I'm beginning to believe that there isn't one, but my conclusion by its nature can only be disproven. In asking Muslims to provide an answer, I'm being completely fair. Where else should I go for an answer? As I told AllahServant, I'm not going on a snipe hunt for Muslim theology. If your answer is that someone out there knows the answer, then if you expect me to believe you, you must tell me the answer you'd expect me to get in the end. I'm holding myself to exactly the same standards to which I'm holding Muslims. If I say that Judaism has a complete, coherent theology---in fact it has many different theologies, and each defines a different strain of Judaism, for example Messianic versus non-Messianic---the I am prepared to describe the theology and list its underlying assumptions.

Now I want to refute one claim that you make in your last post. You seem to imply that Luxenberg made no original claims in his work when you claim that he just read the Arabic word for grapes. Neither of us know Arabic, but Arabic experts and commentators say that you are incorrect. Here are references from the Guardian's review of Luxenberg's work:

One should note that most translations, even those by Muslims themselves such as A Yusuf Ali, and the British Muslim Marmaduke Pickthall, translate the Arabic (plural) word Abkarun as virgins, as do well-known lexicons such the one by John Penrice. I emphasise this fact since many pudic and embarrassed Muslims claim there has been a mistranslation, that "virgins" should be replaced by "angels". In sura 55 verses 72-74, Dawood translates the Arabic word " hur " as "virgins", and the context makes clear that virgin is the appropriate translation: "Dark-eyed virgins sheltered in their tents (which of your Lord's blessings would you deny?) whom neither man nor jinnee will have touched before." The word hur occurs four times in the Koran and is usually translated as a "maiden with dark eyes".

Luxenberg's evidence for retranslation follows later in the article:

Luxenberg 's new analysis, leaning on the Hymns of Ephrem the Syrian, yields "white raisins" of "crystal clarity" rather than doe-eyed, and ever willing virgins - the houris. Luxenberg claims that the context makes it clear that it is food and drink that is being offerred, and not unsullied maidens or houris.

In Syriac, the word hur is a feminine plural adjective meaning white, with the word "raisin" understood implicitly.

Here is the link for any interested reader:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/saturday_review/story/0,3605,631332,00.html

What is your evidence that hur always meant grapes? I can't find any similar statements anywhere. Here is the Wikipedia article on the word at issue, which no Muslims have bothered to dispute:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houri

Not one of the translations from the Koran involves grapes, but they all use the word at issue. For me, arguments about the translation of the Koran are an aside, but I have to object because your purpose seems to be to subvert Luxenberg's work by attacking his originality rather than his arguments. So you agree with his conclusions?

Finally, we reach the dialogue that I've been after all along. Your first theological statement is this:

why does an omniscient god need to create people-

maybe god was lonely- maybe he was bursting with creative energy and was going to burst and had to do something about it maybe he needed reflection of his own I-ness

These are reasonable, first attempts at answers. Now we can have a theological discussion! I'd like to begin by pointing out that you already dismissed as personally unconvincing the idea that God created for personal gratification, because this is God's nature. You wrote:

i am not satisfied with what i perceive as your assessment statement of mutual gratification- (not your statement- the concept itslef)

I never said that God's act of creation was mutually gratifying for God and man---since the above statement was about gratification, I thought that it was rejecting the hypothesis that I offered---but I did say that in a Judeao-Christian theological view, God created man for His own gratification. The view is supported by Genesis when after each act of creation, the text says that God saw that it was good. We can therefore agree about this point, but it seems to reverse what I took to be your position in the comment above. How do you support this speculation with references from the Koran? How do you reconcile it with the Koran's reasoning?

As for the suggestion that God needed man either for reflection or to ease loniliness, how do you reconcile this with the many, many instance in the Koran in which God is described as alone self-sufficient? On its face, the Koran says that God needs nothing. Is there a figurative meaning to the statements that allows for your interpretation?

Thanks.

as long as you refrain from making any similar statemnts about islam we can have a fruitful discussion

1) luxenberg in no way invented a theory on grapes- its simply a literal translation of the word in arabic

2) you misunderstood my reason for remarks on israel- i was pointing out the mr cook must live in a cave if he feels the need to justify muslim nterest in it- in a zogby poll given in iraq i baghdad-war zone- the question that was in the 90s was the question on israel superceding troop withdrawal even (the gauge was importance of issues to iraqis)
mr cook might as well have asked the question like this- why do muslims hate jews? because it was implicit even in the asking of the question- and then he goes on to try and prove muslims have aggressive motives to jews thru quran

i never said anything about wifebeating- i was sing it as an EXAMPLE of common misconceptions even by muslims themselves

I'm not interested in arguments about Israel, but I do want to draw attention to the fact that you've gone on a tirade about Israel, which is inappropriate given that I didn't mention Israel and only suggested that Cook offered a theological perspective on Islam (again, you didn't reason from his evidence or offer counterevidence to his claims so much as rant), rather than sticking to the discussion of theology. You keep trying to shift the conversation with provocative statements. Why not just answer my questions about theology?

----------

Maybe you're right: maybe Islam fully understands women. It claims that women are weak-minded:

i am sensing a passive aggressive misapprehensio

perhaps as a body looking at these statements you can understand that i am becoming hesitant to give answers only to be criticized or have my religion denigrated---

im not a masochist- just a responsive and caring human- im not trying to convince you of anything- or myslef for that matter-

in my life i am always quoting hadeeth and sunnah and quran to apply to life situations- when i first bwecame muslim i read bukhari and muslim which are about 6 big volumes each one repeating itslef about 6 times-
so theyre strong inmy mind

heres another one from you-
. The history of agression and intolerance in Islam exists in a wealth of documents such as this
piece of Islamic jurisprudence:

see its statements like these and the post before that indicate to me you have already made a predetermination- maybe it happened while perusing islamic websites- but i recognize the statements and sentimensts-

now i asked you for some personal information to try to understand your background spiritually and socially- as ive done with you- its a trust thing- just as you made a mountain of wrong assumptions about me-that were wrong and somewhat insulting- like the alienation and then john lind reference-
putting them in the sentence together creates a connection - that doesnt apply

ive noticed mostly all muslims on this whole site speak simply and passively and mannerly- in response to volleys and pages of vicious accusatons and horrific lies-

my hesitance in answering some is becasue i am wondering if you yourself are as neutral on the subject as you imagine- and imnot an aplogist

ne thing i definitely reccomend- dont get info on the internet- goto an islamic book store or education center and touch real books and ask real people- every time i google or search anything islamic the first 5 sites are often christian fake sites - i always have to go to the second page or third- its reallly flooded with enthusiastic decriers and misleaders-

so ill start with the first question-
why does an omniscient god need to create people-

maybe god was lonely- maybe he was bursting with creative energy and was going to burst and had to do something about it maybe he needed reflection of his own I-ness-
im giving it a go at 5am
but its not islam- its victoria

ok im trying to stay awake to pray so id better go read some from a real book that i can touch and feel because sometimes this ephemeral internet makes me compulsive

but believe me joseph- i just spent 5 years with dr amir ali- one of the best islamic minds in america - sadly he died a few months back he ran the islamic institute of information and education
in chicago triple I and E
and speculation and applied text was all we did

the post preceding was just for you to see it from my perspective- maybe you werent aware but there seemed alot of negative judgements there and its hard when one has to defend ones beliefs all the time i dont do well in defensive mode- i get well--defensive!
ok peace i wish you would extend the olive branch of peace and trust and share something about yourslef so youd be a real person- i promise i wont use it against you but o well i guess thats your own defense then
peace

Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, and Buddhism are selfless and self-effacing, I would like to construct for you a view of Islam that seems natural and sutainable through the text of the Koran but terribly selfish.-----
Since Islam offers the possibility of redemption by violence, it sends the message to the disenfranchised and discontented that if you have an axe to grind, Islam will wield your axe with you. In the United States, no one should be shocked that the bulk of converts are prisoners and Afro-Americans, people obviously disenfranchised. I can completely understand why those groups---- While the other religions encourage you to cast aside your hatred and act ethically to redeem the world and reconcile yourself and the world to God, Islam seems to encourage you to focus on your rage and resentment.

I've personally noted individual Muslims' resentment in a number of circumstances.

---I've never met a Muslim who is ready to discuss it---

I don't know of any confident, comfortable, well adjusted non-Muslims living in freedom who've heard the alleged wisdom of the Koran and converted. Maybe it happens,

Maybe you're right: maybe Islam fully understands women. It claims that women are weak-minded:

to me personally
you go out of your way to absolve the religion of responsibility for common practices by claiming that Fatwas sanctioning discrimination against women misread the Koran. As far as I can tell the script

at least your husband, an Afro-American, does fit my portrait of a convert. I didn't say that Afro-Americans all convert in jail; I said that they are often disenfranchised and receptive to a message of social justice. As for you, I don't know your circumstances, but from some of your brief descriptions of your personal experiences and your allusions to a troubled past, you might also fit my description of the typical convert struggling with some profound sense of alienation. I don't know you, and I'm not claiming this to be true of you. However, I have personally met such converts, people fitting the profile of someone like John Walker Lindh whose biography wreaks of alienation and confusion:

Victoria:

Since I'm interested only in a dialogue on theology, I don't want to discuss my religious feelings and background. If I go into detail about my religious feelings and background, the conversation will not be about the important questions of speculative theology (Why did God make man? Why is there evil in the universe?) but will instead be about me. I've announced my belief in God, and my statement of belief represents an adequate starting point for speculative theology, which presupposes the existence of God.

My previous posts contain all that you need to know about me: I am driven by reason to read and research all things, and I'm well versed in the scriptures and theological works of many religions. I'm open to new ideas, and I'm prepared to discuss theology and practice in reference to the scriptures of the five religions I've written about in my previous posts. I'm not a theologian or jurist by training, and I don't have any academic credentials beyond a baccalaureate. I bring to the discussion only my powers of reason and deduction and my privately acquired knowledge of scriptures an theological tracts. I am asking advocates of Islam, which represents itseld as the rational choice in religion, to reason with me and demonstrate Islams rationality.

(I didn't breezily read your posts. The problem is that your posts answer different questions than I asked and appeal to a different aspect than I present to the world. I already indicated that I have an uncommonly unemotional temperament, and I find emotional testamonials unconvincing and uninteresting. I have feelings, but an appeal to my feelings must go through my governing quality, my reason. If you expect to move me about Islam, you'll have to explain it.)

HI JOSEPH- i couldnt possibly be insulted by marrying an african americanman- i knowmany fine brothers-

i was sad that you skimmed my posts so breezily that you would make that conclusion is all-

i just got up to pray and have to get some more sleepnow- but do you mind sharing a little bit about who you are?

what religion were your parents raise din and you?
what is your current religious or non thiest affiliation?
just for the sake of edification-
its only fair ive opened myself up

i hope i can be more crystalline in my future communiques
peace

Victoria:

I formed my impression of Islam from the Koran, contact with Muslims, and Muslim websites, not Christian sources, so despite your attempt to characterize all criticism of Islam as actually understood and practiced by millions of Muslims as bias by Christian perspectives, you failed to show that Islam can't possibly be interpreted fanatically. You keep saying that those interpretations are impossible, and yet millions of Muslims like the one in the BBC clip hold violent, sexist, bigoted positions that they claim originate in Islam. I think that you see what you want to see regarding Islam.

The reason that I've asked for scriptural evidence to support your criticisms of other religions is that I know that you're wrong. Instead of explaining in objective terms the strength and uniqueness of Islam, you chose to praise Islam at the expense of other religions. (You continued the practice in describing why you didn't become a Jew. Did you read the article on women in Judaism? There have always been important women like Ester in Judaism. They're featured much more prominently in the Old Testament than in the Koran. If your objection to Judaism is only that there are no explicit provision in the law regarding women and property, then you're offering a very weak objection. No system including Islam is comprehensive in the way in which you claim Islam to be comprehensive. Does the law as spelled out in the Koran or Hadiths explain what Muslims should do during Ramadan during an Alaskan winter? I doubt it. The habit of interpreting texts is called exegesis, and I'm sure that Fatwas on such an issue resort to exegesis instead commandments from the Koran or Hadiths. If scholars never interpret the system, then it's even more thoroughly merely a system of rules without conceptual unity than I asserted in my earlier posts when I claimed that Islam had jurisprudence and no theology. Jews have slightly different laws than Muslims and exactly the same exegetical tradition, so if Jews are in possesion of the true revelation of God, spurning that revelation over egotistical concerns about the position of women in society seems to repeat the original sin of pride that estranges God and man.) There are no intrinsic flaws in those other faiths, no inescapable interpretations that lead to violence, discrimination, or suffering, and if you make such a claim, then I shouldn't have to take your word for the existence of these flaws. Finally, no list of credentials guarantees anything about your level of accomplishment. Just as there are plenty of incompetent doctors or layers, there are priests and nuns who fail to grasp Catholic or broader Christian theology. Not all people are academic, and vocations are open to people with more passion than intellectual ability.

To be fair---I didn't notice this at first, since I rushed through some of your posts occurring at the same time as mine---you've described your posts as subjective. Subjective discussions are fine for preaching to the choir but pointless in interfaith dialogue. You feel one way, and I feel another; the situation permits no rational discussion. I anticipated the pointlessness of subjective arguments in my request for a dialogue on theology, a request that hasn't changed at all from my first post to my last post. You shifted the discussion to criticism of practice and jurisprudence, and rather than let the errors and misrepresentations stand, I offered rebuttals and demanded proof of your claims, a fair request in any argument over objective claims. If your position is that you just don't feel that Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, or Judaism fit you, I can't argue with your feeling---I don't want to even try to argue about feelings---but if you make an objective claim, you must defend it with evidence. If you drift out of the realm of the objective, if you make more disparaging claims about other religions without scriptural evidence to support the claims, I'm just going to ignore the remarks and refer any interested reader to my previous posts, which satisfactorily rebut soft charges. If you have an answer to any of my theological questions, then I'm happy to read it. If you're not up to discussing theology---I've never met a Muslim who is ready to discuss it---that's fine. I didn't change my questions to you---even when I asked you why you weren't a Jew, the post clearly said that I expected the question to draw you into answers to my previous, theological questions---you just haven't answered my questions. I've been very clear from the first. I'm interested only in objective discussions of theology.

----------

As for insulting you by suggesting that you married an Afor-American, you wrote:

i am a beautiful blue eyed white woman- and i DID NOT become muslim because i married one- the most common assumption-
now in chicago i met an african american man and he asked how i became muslim and i told him I DID NOT MARRY INTO IT- and then he told me
HE DID NOT BECOME A MUSLIM IN PRISON!
and then we laughed and we laughed at the stereotypes people impose on us...

which is terribly unclear. You didn't say explicitly that you married an Afro-American, but you did mention this Afro-American in the same sentence as marriage and conversion. In any case, I was referring to the man that you mentioned in this paragraph and putting him in context, and thinking that you marryied an Afro-American doesn't insult you, anyway.

----------

I'm not interested in arguments about Israel, but I do want to draw attention to the fact that you've gone on a tirade about Israel, which is inappropriate given that I didn't mention Israel and only suggested that Cook offered a theological perspective on Islam (again, you didn't reason from his evidence or offer counterevidence to his claims so much as rant), rather than sticking to the discussion of theology. You keep trying to shift the conversation with provocative statements. Why not just answer my questions about theology?

----------

Maybe you're right: maybe Islam fully understands women. It claims that women are weak-minded:

With regard to the testimony of two women being equivalent to the testimony of one man in some cases, that is because women tend to be more forgetful than men because of their natural cycles of menstruation, pregnancy, giving birth, raising children, and so on. All these things preoccupy them and make them forgetful. Hence according to Islamic Law, another woman should reinforce a woman’s testimony so that it will be more accurate.

Maybe you didn't get this memo. This was from:

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503548820

I, for one, think that you are free of intrinsic defects of mind and capable of mounting a rational response to simply put questions of theology. Will you try?

since i had a minute i went back over your posts and
looked at the sites- perhaps because im a woman i have a different perspective- but why on earth would i regress to orthodox judaism that is only recently starting to give the same rights to women that islam gave to them 1400 years ago?
should i fo and try to butt my head against the wall trying to convinve patriarchal jewish men that i deserve the rights that theyve only had a few short years to adjust to and probably havent made the social and psychological adjustments that men in islam made 1470 years ago?
in practice and living in a russian jewish neighborhood for years working for a dentist whose clients were mostly orthodox jews- i had many chances to interact and see how it plays out in real life- just because some intellectuals at the top made these revisions in the 70s doesnt mean its filtered down to mainstream practice easily without resistance- andalso the issues of owning property werent even addressed-
------------------------------------
start at the dawn of Muslim history. Many theories have been proposed in order to explain the phenomenal Muslim conquest of the entire ancient world, from Tours in France to the borders of China in Central Asia, during the period of a century. Some scholars dismiss the idea that religious belief was a primary or even a secondary

ok thats enough- thats the beginning of prof cooks
paper- but there is never any reason given for the dismissal that it is possible that it spread simply through religion- instead he goes on to try and analyze what he perceives as the muslim mindset- but through such christian flavored glasses that im not going to comment-

and then he has a long paragraph trying to find some justificationm for muslims interest in israel- and instead of coming up with an obvious reason stated countlessly by muslims- he concludes a very ugly prejudice on the part of muslims-

go to a site called rabbis against zionism
or jews against zionism

you will hear in the words of practicing and faithful jews what they think of zionism
it is a political problem not religion
obscurantist distractions like religon only mislead the masses
even the un said zionism = racism in 1974 and to date 65 resolutions have been brought against israel for its occupationof palestinian lands
0 resolutions have been brought againt palestinians
the fact that he had to resort to complicated rationale to find a way to explain to himself why muslims are preoccupied with israel indicates that
1) he simply doesnt have any knowledge on the subject and has been living in a cave
2) he is trying to misrepresent islam and has less than stellar intentions

if you really want to understand islam- go to islamonline.com
or any islamic website-
but dont go to christian crusaders with questionableknowledge and motives

would i go to a protestant site to ask about catholicism?
no- if i really had sincere desire to learn i would go to a catholic site

same with islam if you come upon sites that seems critical or hostile youre probably on one of the many fake muslim sites posted by islamophobic fundamentalist christian types

the other site couldnt be found on my server after several attempts

i get the feeling that you have only skimmed and dismissed my posts because you seemed somehow to think im married to an african american and then proceeded to psychoanalyze (wildly inaccurately)
me-

i put thought into them and they deserve the same level of responsiveness and respect ive shown you

if that is possible then i will continue to dialogue but only if you are sincerely interested and go back to my first post
the first words state
i am not a scholar
peace joseph and may ALLAH guide you to your destiny

thisis a post i posted on the main question board
i thought you might find it of interest

that was beautiful simplewords- my own experience is so simple and quick that i hesitated to share it in case someone might think it was a sign- or mystical in some way- muslims dont worship ALLAH to feel good, or because we think there are signs that are especially for us-
please i dont say this to make any judgement on anyone who has had a personal experience with god- not at all- but it is a different way of worshipping- worshipping ALLAH because He is the god- when i was about 11 i was reborn as a christian
and i had a comic strip from a beatnik artist from the 50s named jim crane- in it a man, hat in hand, is asking god- if i worship you will you make me rich? then another famous? then powerful? and some others- the answer was never given but it was implied--- and then in the end he says- oh i must worship you because you are god? and then in the next box his hat is on his head and he says, what kind of a deal is that?

that made such an impression on my little girl psyche- i was from an agnostic and atheist family and my search was purely my own-
that comic resnated with me because i saw always the peope i looked to for guidance and all their prayers were asking asking asking- taking taking taking- and i knew this was wrong- i knew this wasnt worship but some kind of deal being struck-

as an adult ive gone through so many different kinds of faiths- worshipping and searching- i finally later settled on franciscan catholicism because he was a fool for god- forsaking all comforts and reputation and focused on god only- the franciscans also do all selfless service to humanity- but the thing about the franciscans was their total submission to the will of god.

for a long time i used to think i was "in the flow" and traffic lights would always be green and things would with easy synchronicity fall into place and i would follow thinking it was gods will for me.

when i became muslim i realized it was indeed the real shaitan (satan) who was misleading me and i easily followed because it was so easy-

islam is not easy- i am forced to learn and introspect and grow and question and suffer and develop- if i wanted to feel good i couldve chanted into bliss- but there is much more to life than feeling good- there is making a positive contribution to other humans- their development my develpoment there is responsibility and discernment and making hard decisions with wisdom and sticking by them- and ultimately there is worshipping ALLAH- who has a personal name because He is my constant friend- and in worshipping ALLAH
5 times a day i must discipline and reroute my attentions and focus my being in a consistent and disciplined way to give when i pray- the time for asking is after the prayer is over- but the prayer itslef is an exercise in conscious gratitude- and a giving of my whole self-

there is no magic- no signs- ebven Jesus(ata) himself said you are a generation chasing after signs- it is not easy but it is so much more fulfilling in such a deeper and realer way.
thats all
peace

i dont have time but ill share later what happened specifically
---------------------------

i just started to read your first paragraph- as i stated right away- im not a scholar- you seem to desire one kind of conversation that is 1-2-3 and in some certain framework- now it seems you are not happy with my responses because they dont seem to fit your expectations and for that im sorry- but my mind works the way it works- at first you asked for speculation and i tried to answer in that simple way form my observations- but you keep bogging me down in distactions and conversations about other faiths-
which do you want?

i told you about my personal experiences and now you want me to do a thesis and quote scripture form 5 different religions- what i gave you was my observations- they were fluid and heartfelt-

im not interested so much in covering old ground i wanted to move on- but out of respect for your questions i tried to answer them- you are saying you gave me a choice- i just see it as respcetfully responding to everything i can-
if i wrote all the scripture to back everything up it would take days i dont have-

now i was a novitiate for several years- which is a novice the state one practices at being a nun as it were-

i would really beg to differ on the importance of the books you listed- first of all- i was not pauline- imitaion of christ by thomas akempis
dark night of the soul by st john of the cross
the little flower st therese of liseux

it really depends on who you talk to

now ive worshipped with methodists jehovahs witnesses baptists anglicans episcopalians
coptics, syrians orthodox greek orthodox and catholics most of all

o ive spent alot fo time with amish and friends too(quakers) i dont find christianity as easily categorized

il give you a quick synopsis for your edification

as far as the alienation and troubled past- ive worked with people with aids for over 15 years so that is troubling- ive fed homeless people and worked for a couple of years with mexicans in the fields and lived with them in their shanties teaching english and art to native americans also i the community in n.cal
i worked for the state of calif with neglected and abused senior citizens- the state of illinois with aids clients- disabled american veterans for 3 years- allof these troubling experiences
i dont drink do drugs and never in my life was promiscuous-

the catholic church was quite sad to lose me and sent a priest round to try and bring me back- yes i really dont fit the disenfranchised alienated fringe element that you associate with reverts to islam-
i became muslim 8 years ago -
im a beautiful white woman with social connections and many different opportunities in my life
i was on the high honor rollall through school
i did not marry someone and become muslim it was through my own seeking

now ive told you more than i care to and you shouldnt make me feel like i have to defend my self- but you seem to have some preconceptions and i assure you i will dispell them all as i do in my everyday life
every day people ask where im form and i mean every day
that cant make the connection woth the face and the scarf-

also i just got married 8 months ago to a wonderful man and he is a caucasian and is finishing up his masters degree in psychology right now.

sorry no one has been able to construct a theory about me yet- maybe they should ask as you did
but more importantly they should pay attention to whats said-

and you dont need to reconcile my life to islam- ive done that myself- if youre interested i willcommunicate but i dont have any interest in endless scripture pastes and debate.

let us not cover old ground- let us instead look to the future- cicero

maybe paraphrased i do everything from memory

so conider this now- you have just encountered a confident comfortable well adjusted ex christian who had all the freedoms imaginable who became a muslim with all of her faculties intact and in superior working order.

peace

Victoria:

I forgot to address one of your sets of comments. Before I begin, I'm sure that you and your husband are very nice people, and I respect anyone trying to lead virtuous, selfless lives. Although I'm sure that you are sincere in your faith, at least your husband, an Afro-American, does fit my portrait of a convert. I didn't say that Afro-Americans all convert in jail; I said that they are often disenfranchised and receptive to a message of social justice. As for you, I don't know your circumstances, but from some of your brief descriptions of your personal experiences and your allusions to a troubled past, you might also fit my description of the typical convert struggling with some profound sense of alienation. I don't know you, and I'm not claiming this to be true of you. However, I have personally met such converts, people fitting the profile of someone like John Walker Lindh whose biography wreaks of alienation and confusion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Walker_Lindh

Thirty or fourty years ago, the alienated and confused tended to become radical Marxists or communists, but with the collapse of the Soviet Union, these labels have lost their appeal. I don't know of any confident, comfortable, well adjusted non-Muslims living in freedom who've heard the alleged wisdom of the Koran and converted. Maybe it happens, but before I believe it, I'll have to hear the wisdom myself, which is the reason that I've called for this dialogue. As for Hispanic converts, I know that Muslims like to fantasize a lot about Hispanic converts---a Muslim girl working as a cashier in a coffee shop that I used to visit was always reading Muslim publications while she worked, and I noticed headlines about Hispanic converts from time to time---but there's no evidence of large numbers of conversions; the examples that come to mind are prisoners like Jose Padilla. Hispanics might be the fastest growing group of Muslims, but that isn't saying much; for example, going from 0 to 1 or from 1000 to 1500 earns Hispanic Muslims the distinction of being the fastest growing segment of the Muslim community. In any case, in my discussion with AllahServant, this already came up indirectly. She recommended a book by a Muslim scholar exploring the reason for the lack of success of Islam among caucasians and Hispanic-Americans whereas Islam has spread very successfully among Afro-Americans. I'm sure that his answer is different than mine, but his book published in 2005 agrees with my description of the success of Islam among Hispanic-Americans. This is from the Amazon publisher's description:

Book Description
Sherman Jackson offers a trenchant examination of the career of Islam among the blacks of America. Jackson notes that no one has offered a convincing explanation of why Islam spread among Blackamericans (a coinage he explains and defends) but not among white Americans or Hispanics.

Here is the link to the book:

http://www.amazon.com/Islam-Blackamerican-Looking-toward-Resurrection/dp/019518081X/sr=8-1/qid=1167985274/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-1385341-8159039?ie=UTF8&s=books

Thanks, and again, I want to emphasize that I respect your struggle to lead a virtuous and selfless life though I can't reconcile your satisfaction with Islam with my reading of the Koran or other religious texts. Take care.

Victoria:

One last thing: please, try to answer some of my questions. I have a lot to do, and I don't have the time to keep rehashing all of these points. I know your position. You know my position. Where does that get us? Nowhere. I asked questions to encourage dialogue, and I'm only interested in dialogue that leads to a theological explanation of Islam if such an explanation is possible. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: no one is more open-minded, and I'm just waiting for someone to satisfy my mind and my reason.

Victoria:

Because there might be people who've never heard of the Baghavad-Gita, I should place it completely in context. The Baghavad-Gita relates a dialogue supposed to have been witnessed by a seer between a warrior named Arjuna and his spiritual advisor, Sri Krishna, an aspect of Brahman, before Arjuna enters a battle in which he might have to kill some of his brothers who are standing against him. Arjuna tells Krishna that he can't kill his brothers, and Krishna instructs him in ethics and reveals the Doctrine of Nonattachment (which corresponds quite closely to a medieval Christian idea called Holy Indifference) asserting that hating rather than killing is wrong. In short, if Arjuna is bound by circumstances in pursuit of the greater good to kill his brothers in combat, then as long as he doesn't act for personal motives he behaves morally. It doesn't advocate violence, and as the quote I've give above shows, it doesn't command indifference to the suffering of others. It commands indifference to your own motives and desires.

As for the opinions of the majority of Christians, as far as I know only the smallest minority, Amish and Seventh Day Adventists, believe that the Gospels have only one reading requiring pacifism. To say that the Gospels have variant readings and therefore can be made to say anything is an equivocation. The text doesn't support any reading, but it can support just war. Such Christian groups as the Catholic Church and most protestant churches endorse this understanding, and ideas like the Doctrine of Holy Indifference, which demands of Christians that they interrogate their own motives purging themselves of selfishness and anger as they prepare a course of action, evolved in response to life's demands on Christians.

There is a common Muslim polemic about Christianity claiming that it's hopelessly ascetic and pacifist---this view is spelled out in great detail by Sayid al-Qutb in "Social Justice in Islam" and implied by you implicitly in your comments describing Islam as balanced compared to other religions---but it's just wrong. Christianity is balanced. Similarly Judaism, Hinduism, and Buddhism are balanced. All of them are compassionate.

When I asked you why you weren't an Orthodox Jew instead of a Muslim, I inadvertently left the door open to an answer that neglected to say what is special in Islam preferring instead to set up a negative example of Judaism and knock the example. I was expecting---I'm trying to be completely clear this time---that you'd say something about Islam that is positive and unique to Islam. Unless you can clearly explain the inevitable development of the alleged flaws of Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, or Buddhism from scriptural sources or practices commanded by scripture, I can't consider the question answered. Each of the religions that I've treated offers a unique theological point of view, and while they might have superficial similarities in practice to each other---they each have very balanced, moderate mainstream expressions---theology forms the basis for making a clear choice between them. I don't accept the claim that Islam is more balanced or sensible in practice or jurisprudence than the other religions, and there are good examples and strains of the other religions and bad examples of Islam that support my claim.

At this point, I'll put the question to you one more time: how does Islam explain the relationship of God to man and man to God? I invite any Muslim to attempt to answer the question. Until next time, take care.

(Now for a couple of quick points in response to some of the least relevant or worthy comments: I never said that my Pakistani coworker beat his wife. I don't recall saying anything about Muslim men beating women though there are plenty of Fatwas endorsing the practice; I'll post links if you like. I never implied anything about the appearance of women, you or others, who find comfort in the sexual morality of Islam; rather I implied that the comfort that women take in the sexual morality as celebrated by so many Muslim activists can serve egotistical and selfish ends often coming across hypocritically as more of a play of modesty than genuine modesty. I'm sure that if you survey Catholic, Anglican, or Episcopal clergy, they'll list the most important teachers in Christianity in order as Jesus, Paul of Tarsus, who's included in the New Testament, Augustine of Hippo, the author of "The Confessions," "On Free Choice of the Will," and "City of God," and Thomas Aquinas, the father of Natural Law. The claim that the teaching of Augustine and Aquinas is central to modern Catholicism and closely related Protestants, groups representing around a billion Christians, is hardly controversial. Next, pointing out the obvious, the fact of Muslim extremism and terrorism, doesn't automatically represent a bias against Islam, and people usually use that point to dismiss an argument that they don't want to face, in this case the argument that the practice of Islam is no better or more peaceful than the practice of Judaism. Next, in Islam you've identified pure practice with one group of people dismissing the practice of fully a fifth of Muslims, the Shia, who do have a form of clergy. Finally, I have no idea what you meant in writing about arrogance and personally trying to circumvent the redemption offered by Jesus. I can't make any sense out of the comment. Can you explain it?)

just for the record- im not angry- prudish- or oppressed in any way- did you ever see monty pythons holy grail when the king is clomping thru the countryside and they come upon terry jones and michael palin discussing social systems in the fields? the peasants- and then he tells them he is their king and palin is saying o i thought we were a collective oligarchy or something and then they grab him and he says help help im being suppressed!
im being suppressed! and jumps around like a jackrabbit and then says now we see the injustice inherent in the system!

sometimes just to mess with my husband i jump up and downa d say loudly Help! im being oppressed! and jump madly about and then he laughs.

im not mad at the world at all andim not sourfaced or judgemenal or wagging my finger in disapproval at anyone or trying to limit soemones freedom or dissatisfied with my own life to feel the need to spread my misery-
just thought id throw that in
peace

Well that all truly proves the point that you get what you look for- if you look with a biased and jaundiced eye you can validate anything-

one of the beautiful aspects of islam is the emphasis on intention-

nowi have no idea what cook says and no desire to challenge him- as i epressed before it wasnt that all hindus are compassionless- i just felt that there was a basic flaw in a system that can justify such an example by its own design- there is also suttee- the burning of widows alive on the funeral pyre of the husband - and the caste system which constricts peoples social mobility from birth- and as i mentioned- the gita was recited on a battlefield- so for me personally- at that point in my life- spiritually it wasnt the answer forme- i cant speak for anyone else.

i just moved from chicago chicago where i lived for 5 years- and i went to a mosque 1 block away form louis farakhans house- it was alot of nation of islam- now they believe form sura 100 ayat 20
that all blue eyed people (and by extension white)
are the devil- this is a great example of someone with a bad heart full of hatred abusing and picking some small point to serve thier preconceived ideas and force it to fit-

the translation says that on the judgement day- all of the demons and disbelievers will be blue eyed with terror- welll- other translations say white eyed- you can see how a tiny misunderstanding can be abused to suit ones racist agenda if that is their intention.

the Qur'an is exactly as it was written- in a language that is still spoken and used- hence it is important when one comes upon something that doesnt seem right- doesnt jibe with an inner sense of justice and goodness- as a non- arabic speaker dependent on translations i must ask those who know- scholars and such-
if i look at only my english translation for instance- i would come up with the completely disgusting and barbarically brutal idea that women can be beaten by their husbands-

since in the context of the egalitarian flow that i encountered in the Qur'an i found this to be a repulsive idea- so i researched it-
long story short- it is such a prevalent and abusive misinterpertation that many muslim men themselves erroneously interpert it this way-
from sunnah- the example given by the actions of the Prophet(pbuh) and the word itself which is i believe daraba- there are 10 different forms to this verb- and many scholars-(good and respected ones not fly by night) have concluded that the meaning is to remove yourself for a time form the company of your wife-
this is in response to her being consciously disobedient to ALLAH- lke drinking whiskey maybe-

but its deliberate or just ignorant interpertation have let many many men beat their wives or at least threaten them- with impugnity and has propogated a false and oppressive atmosphere of fear and suppression- perhaps your pakistani friend interperts it this way-
now i went back and looked and so far i havent made any slanderous remarks about other faiths-

as iexpressed earlier- my reasons for being dissatisfied were purely my own and would take a book to express-

just because there might be some mean spirited racist jewish man that might think gentiles werent worth his fingernail- doesnt mean i think its right or that any jewish people have such an attitude- i realize there are always small minded and ugly hearted people in every faith-including islam-

what i try to do is never judge the religion by tis people- but by the words of the scripture themselves- now i could sit all day and dredge up negative verse form every major religion and then find some nasty person to pin it on as representative but-
i dont have the inclination.

and as a rejoinder- for every idiot who straps a bomb on himself and blows up someones baby - you will find 1000s of muslims who disagree with that-

perhaps i wasnt clear- iwasnt presuming to give a scholarly synapsis on the practices of different religions- i cant do that or even want to- i was giving some very subjective and quick observations of my own personal experiences and why they failed to satisfy me as a preface to why islam satisfies me-

its not that i am finding the worst of something- im just relating what specifically happened to me personally that led me away from other paths that i entered open minded and open hearted each time with the great hope that it would be the one that satisfied my soul and deep need for a religion that had within its scriptures- the universality of man- and equality of all beings beofre god-
which i really have found in islam-

as i will say again and again- it is all about intentions and i really believe my intentions were pure when i approached different beliefs- and ive left them with good experiences and a deeper understanding of the different ways people approach god- they just werent my own subjective way is all.

now to say i have a most generous understanding of islam withour referring to the practices of islam-

if that statement came from a muslim- it would border on extreme insult- if a believer accuses another of disbelief- then the accuser actually beomes that which he accuse of- becomes a disbeliever just by the accusation-

i pray 5 times a day and comport myself as best i can as a practicing muslim- there is no heiarchy in islam- no bishops to shove their opinions down others throats- another egalitarian aspect of islam- that is the true way it is to be practiced-

so while within our own community we can disagree on interpertations- ultimately there is no central islamic ummah- community to draw on as an authority- so we must necessarily respect all opinions whether we like it or not- we can cwertainly disagree but we dont have to become what we disagree with just because someone proclaims it in a loud voice.

o i forgot-
i had a point-
i am a beautiful blue eyed white woman- and i DID NOT become muslim because i married one- the most common assumption-
now in chicago i met an african american man and he asked how i became muslim and i told him I DID NOT MARRY INTO IT- and then he told me
HE DID NOT BECOME A MUSLIM IN PRISON!
and then we laughed and we laughed at the stereotypes people impose on us...
i dont know how old those stats are about most muslims comng from imprisoned african american men- but ive been under the impression that mexican catholics are the new group of reverts.

o many well known examples of evil done in the name of Islam for me to grant that much leave. now i nterpert this statement of yours to be a biased one- as if there are so many that there is not enough time to recount them-

you are right we could spend a lifetime in syuch pointless pursuits-

if you want to give examples of good in religions that fine by me-

also the fact that aquinas and others managed to create a methodology of war rather proves my point that you can find what you want if youve a jaundiced eye-
i was franciscan and never inclined to look for ways to go to war-
if the new testament is elastic enough to allow that kind of broad misuse- well - i think most people really have conjectured that Jesus(ata) message was a pacifist one-

and as stated the gita was revealed on a battlefield

but there is no need to stretch anything in islam- the rules of all different human engagements are anticipated- sadly man is a violent creature- and these issues are dealt with to make it clear that every action must be done with the most merciful the highest nature of forgiveness-

there is no pleasure allowed in islam on the battlefield- this is forbidden- if in defense one must kill- it is to be done mercifully quickly and with no joy or gloating or sense of righteousness but with sadness at a necessary action-

and with just a quick glimpse- redemption for christians was already offered thru Jesus(ata) and it would be the height of arrogance to assume one could personally circumvent this or improve on it-

conversely- pacifism as an abdication of your ethical duties does not need to be argued in islam- as it is clearly stated.

but i dont really know enough at all about that subject im just imagining form the tiny bit of information at hand-
also by whose opinion are augustine and aquinas given the 3rd and 4th importance rating?
that is also a very subjective opinion
having spent years with priests and theologians and apologists i am not sure everyone agrees with this within the confines of the catholic church-

but i may be wrong.
ok peace i have things i need to do

Victoria:

Just one more thing: if you want to challenge Cook's analysis, you should dispute his sources or methods. Impugning someone's objectivity because they might be Christian acts as a ploy, an ad hominem attack, rather than a counter argument. Again, my point wasn't to ask you to answer Cook; I wanted to show you Islam's vulnerability to the treatment that you've given other religions. I was hoping that you'd see why my original questions are the fertile ground for dialogue: they offer a neutral framework for comparing religions and hold promise for reconciling all faiths.

NB: From Wikipedia

In English, the word apocalypse now commonly refers to the end of the world. The current meaning may be an ellipsis of the phrase apokalupsis eschaton (apocalyptic eschatology), meaning "revelation of knowledge of the end of time". This ellipsis in common usage echoes the ellipsis in the title of the last book of the Bible, Book of Revelation, which is commonly interpreted as prophesying the end of the world in graphic detail. See also eschatology and millennialism.

(I'm sure that Cook wasn't endorsing the idea that Islam was revealed by God.)

Victoria:

Again, I think that you've chosen to the most generous understanding of Islam without referring to the practice of actual Muslims either now or in the time of Muhammed. The history of agression and intolerance in Islam exists in a wealth of documents such as this piece of Islamic jurisprudence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pact_of_Umar

If you explore some of the links, you'll see that actual practicing Muslim scholars had no problem justifying the application of this code to the occupied parts of Spain during the Moorish invasions. How is this common treatment of non-Muslims different from the claims that you make about the worst examples of Jewish jurisprudence?

The point of my last group of posts was to show that we can easily reduce the entire conversation to irreconcilable postions if we fail to be consistent in our treatment of different religions. I, too, can point out only the most positive aspects of all of the other religious texts, claim only the worst about the practice of Islam, show how the others are consistent while the example of Islam is rife with contradictions, bigotry, and hatred, but I don't think that such a tactic is fair. I've stipulated that there are bad examples of interpretation and practice in other religions, but I won't let you off the hook with dubious claims about the history of the practice of Islam. There are too many well known examples of evil done in the name of Islam for me to grant that much leave. (Did you listen to the British Muslim?) In this case, I think that you've failed to be fair by choosing the least favorable interpretation of the other religions and compared them to what you understand to be the best of Islam. I'm inviting you to compare the best of the other religions with the best of Islam in an area in which Islam seems to offer very little, speculative theology. Will you accept the invitation?

(For the record, there is a great diversity of practice in Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, and Buddhism, and for every Buddhist or Hindu who offers you a compassionless understanding of Karma, there will be another to give you a compassionate interpretation. I have the Upanishads and the Code of Manu at home, and though I haven't read them yet, my understanding is that they don't contradict the Baghavad-Gita and that the Baghavad-Gita is the central scripture of Hinduism, a fine starting point for speculative theology. If you consider for a moment the compassionate and selfless interpretation of the Gita within the entire body of Hindu scriptures, how can you claim that your peculiar, compassionate understanding of Islam is better? Similarly, you write as though all Christians are like the Almish or like the only plausible interpretation of the Gospels is as completely pacifist. Again, this understanding is partial. Augustine of Hippo and Thomas Aquinas, the third and fourth most important figures in Christianity, both developed theories of just war based on their understandings of the Gospels. Pacifism is one, safe understanding of the Gospels---you can't go wrong by erring on the side of forgiveness---but you can also argue directly from parables in the text that pacifism is an abdication of your ethical duty in many cases, that you are called to follow your conscience, that your salvation isn't a prize to be buried but a gift that you must risk for the redemption of the world.)

Until the next post, take care.

Who burns with the bliss
And suffers the sorrow
Of every creature
Within his own heart,
Making his own
Each bliss and each sorrow:
Him I hold highest
Of all the Yogis.

Part 6, The Yoga of Meditation
The Baghavad-Gita

i realized i started a thought but didnt finish it-
because i satisfied my self that other beliefs were insufficient to my own needs and by extension humanitys (as im a human) a religion should fulfil the needs of every memeber especially the weakest- which ive been - i hope it doesnt sound arrogant to include humanity i dont claim to speak for humanity-

since that was my experience i tend to have my opwn reasons for what you might have thought was less than generous in my opinion of other faiths- you cant know whats in my head of course and i shouldnt assume what is obvious t my own little particular life experience is universal- but that was my perspective and without explanation it probably seems like im not generous to others faiths-
i am just as verbose in criticism of the behavior of muslims but onlyto myself- not anyone else-
it would be indecorous ofme to criticize the behaviors of my brothers and sisters as we are all of us human and imperfect reperentaives of the reflectionsof ALLAH that we are-
i like to move on ahead because these are issues ive resolved in myslef and of course you dont have my resolution process in your consciousness because i havent shared it but i feel like id take alot of time away form "speculations" on islam because you can see clearly how easily i digress and how circuitous are my thought processes.
so forgive my skipping around or incomplete statements that seem baseless-
peace

this is true- i have been known many many times to pick up conversations with people that i havent seen for a year where they left off and they are like- what are you going on about?

i never lose a point but sometimes it takes me awhile to get to it as youve undoubtedly noticed.

Joseph- im sorry if i didnt express clearly that i am not making judgements about religions- i am making observations about what ive seen the different religious practices impact on the actual living and practical aspects of the believers every day living- as far as the meditation practices- it never has gotten to the point of the compassionate end of suffering- it seemed to actually give itself a reason NOT to be compassionate in the rationale that - in actual practice- because of reincarnation-(and i have seen this and had it explained to me when i questioned it)
for instance- if you pass a legless child with a begging bowl- you view that child as having deserved this present condition because in a past life it clearly deprived someone else of their legs-
if you do something to help them now- you may be actually spritually depriving them of the ability to burn off their bad karma and by an act of compassion you are interfering with their spiritual development- every instinct in me tells me this is wrong- the rejection and detachment form the physical- the chastisement of the body- these are not realistic or holistic to me.
The caste system in india developed from the incredibly convoluted vedas and upanishads-and no one could argue that there is any basis for a racist and sexist philosophy no matter what rationale you use- the gita is a tiny book in a vast library of doctrine-
i dont like to spend my time in criticism of others- it is counter productive to me and doesnt validate what i DO beleive in any way.

While i judaism the chosen people status is supposed to be a burden- in reality it has been abused in the context that , for instance in the mishnah i think it is- 10,000 gentiles are not worth the discarded fingernail of one jewish person- now clearly this is a ridiculous an extreme justification- but it is not stricken or denied- it is an embarrassing little secret but only reformist jews who reject alot of their religion will say it is not valid.
I am in no way saying all jewish people believe this- what i am saying is that the basic premise allows this kind of thing to be reasonable to SOME.

BTW its interesting that Luxenberg laims islam is an apocalyptic religion- since the word apocalypse is a greek word that means revelation.

Now i could write endlessly aboutmy spiritual experiences in other religions- but i will say that when i encountered them i tiried to practice and worship within the confines of each religion with my whole heart and soul and respect-
i didnt study with jewish people hindus buddhists etc... i WORSHIPPED with them with a trusting and believing and even openly generous heart-
if it seems like i dont have one now- it is because i saw into the deep soul of them and found them lacking in some abysmally dissatisfying way to myself- and i can only speak for myself-

so these are all personal reflections of a woman who has spent her whole life working hard and serving others and without formanl education and i hope i can say i have never sold out my own consistent ideals to advance socially or financially actually i have gone the opposite exptreme to avoid these things because i thought (erroneously but consistent with the religions i was employing) that they would corrupt me.
its not a balanced philosophy-

nowi have to go but ill say quickly that- in islam i have found that the creator ALLAH has the most comprehensive knowledge of human nature- knows what will be abused and how- and has set up a system that is workable and valuable-
i heard it stated that islam is a set of rules- not rules but guidelines for the optimum social and independent development of the human-

there is another element that- raised an american i have always been taught that the individuals rights are most important- more important than any rights of society- now islam has crystallized culturally that the rights of the individual are subjugated and subsumed by the rights of society-

neither are right and both are on the extreme swings of the pendulum..

islam really is the middle way the way of a moderation- balance between the individual needs and the needs of society-

please understand i am no scholar and these are just my thoughts and observations-

and dont get me started on the concept of individual and personal responsibility-

again- it would be splendid if all religions were enacted as they were intended- but this is simply not human behavior- we are always looking for a way to serve our own selfish purposes-
islam allows for the weaknesses and hopes for the strenghths and is a fully operational system that works if practiced- it worked in the time of the Prophet(pbuh) and was a golden age for a minute- an example of what a society could be-
all aspects covered and addressed by a merciful God who foresaw the potentials for abuses and trumped them in ways that we are still learning-
evidenced by muslim immigrants to america that have found the freedom to make mistakes and realize anew the inherent wisdom of their own religion.

well i probably didnt address everything again but
im trying some- i am truly insufficient to the task-

ps as far as redemptive power in fighting- that is a very focused limited and strange interpertation- he obviously was concentrating on one tiny aspect which seems to obsess christians in america-
how does one live as a total pacifist without getting beat up and killed by all the bullies?

christianity never addresses this-
any time you see any reference in the QURAN it is addressing the right to defend oneself if attacked in ones home- on ones land- it says quite clearly that ALLAH hates the aggressors- and also if the people turn back from attacking you to cease and desist- but people always cut off the ayats before they get to that part-

so because christians are determined to project their own concept of redemption onto others- it seems Professor Cook may be projectng redemption as a way to justify what he doesnt quite understand and is trying to be fair- but maybe he is missing the point of defending oneslef in the entire historical context of persecution at the time.

but i havent read his works so i really havent a right to judge.
even if he isnt a christian though- its possible his worldview was developed from a christian perspective-
peace joseph time to do laundry

Victoria:

As you can see, the system was choking on my post for some reason. There is one redundant piece of the post. I had to experiment with the first part to get the system to accept it. I had to cut the list of article references to one, and that only worked in the second post. Here are the others:

http://www.bu.edu/mille/publications/winter2001/cook.html

http://www.bu.edu/mille/scholarship/papers/ADAM.html

(Part Three)

Sometimes in the prudishness of women who have recently converted to Islam, I detect a note of resentment as well. They've gotten the short end of the stick in unstructured sexual transactions with men, and they're angry and would like to see men held to account. I can understand this feeling as well as I can understand the feelings of men about women who exploit mens' desire, however, rather than equate chastity to honesty and encourage women to treat men as equals rather than trade on mens' sexual desire, Islam endorses the selfish view that a woman should get the price that she seeks for her sexuality and offers marriage as a vehicle for structuring sexual transactions.

I could write more about Afro-Americans or peasants in Bangladesh, but I think that by now you probably get the point: a focus on social justice is intrinsically selfish and egotistical. Islam can easily be construed as selfish---construing it any other way seems nearly impossible---so I hope that you'll answer some of my theological questions and give Islam the kind of conceptual unity that precludes misunderstanding.

(Part Two)

Since Islam offers the possibility of redemption by violence, it sends the message to the disenfranchised and discontented that if you have an axe to grind, Islam will wield your axe with you. In the United States, no one should be shocked that the bulk of converts are prisoners and Afro-Americans, people obviously disenfranchised. I can completely understand why those groups would want some kind of justice. Everyone wants for themselves justice and fairness, however, this emphasis on justice for the individual is precisely the point where Islam departs radically from Christianity, Buddhism, and Hinduism, which all see resentment and envy as perfect expressions of selfishness. While the other religions encourage you to cast aside your hatred and act ethically to redeem the world and reconcile yourself and the world to God, Islam seems to encourage you to focus on your rage and resentment. You can see this understanding of Islam in the following clip of a British Muslim on the BBC:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maHSOB2RFm4&mode=related&search=

I've personally noted individual Muslims' resentment in a number of circumstances. I used to work with a Pakistani immigrant who was married with three children. I would discuss religion and social issues with him---he was one of the people that referred me to an imam instead of trying to answer my questions himself---and once I mentioned that I thought that no-fault divorce, custody traditions, and general attitudes about sexuality in America discriminated against men. (Sometimes, I think that women in America shamelessly exploit the natural asymmetry in sexual desire to manipulate men and the political system. On the flip side, some men very successfully take advantage of the informality of sexual transactions to con women, to get a sexual commitment from women without giving anything in return. The sexual immorality of modern America seems to threaten the spiritual health of all people.) He practically foamed at the mouth as he began to denounce women. I was stunned, and I realized that for him, Islam and its prudishness were a way to contain women and their sexuality. He wasn't interested in dialogue; he wanted to punish any vixen who tempted him rather than try to free himself of his selfish desire.

Victoria:

Where you've claimed that Islam is naturally communal and other religions seem selfish, as an illustration of the arbitrariness of these characterizations and having already explained how Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, and Buddhism are selfless and self-effacing, I would like to construct for you a view of Islam that seems natural and sutainable through the text of the Koran but terribly selfish. To do this I need to tie a little theology to some observations about the situation of many converts.

I've only seen one attempt at a theology for Islam, and ironically, it didn't come from a Muslim. It came from a professor named David Cook, a product of the Divinity School at the University of Chicago and a member of the faculty at Boston University. Cook claims that the view of the world that you can extract from the Koran is that the world requires redemption and there is a redemptive power in fighting. This claim is only made tangentially in the following articles:

http://www.bu.edu/mille/scholarship/papers/cookabs.html

The articles cite Koran, Hadith, and other documentary source to making this claim. (By the way, these articles, like those by Luxenberg, treat Islam seriously and operate entirely within the logic of the faith in performing their analyses.) He argues that Islam is an Apocalyptic religion.

Since I've been having some problems posting, I'll break my last post into parts.

(Part One)

Victoria:

Where you've claimed that Islam is naturally communal and other religions seem selfish, as an illustration of the arbitrariness of these characterizations and having already explained how Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, and Buddhism are selfless and self-effacing, I would like to construct for you a view of Islam that seems natural and sutainable through the text of the Koran but terribly selfish. To do this I need to tie a little theology to some observations about the situation of many converts.

I've only seen one attempt at a theology for Islam, and ironically, it didn't come from a Muslim. It came from a professor named David Cook, a product of the Divinity School at the University of Chicago and a member of the faculty at Boston University. Cook claims that the view of the world that you can extract from the Koran is that the world requires redemption and there is a redemptive power in fighting. This claim is only made tangentially in the following articles:

The articles cite Koran, Hadith, and other documentary source to making this claim. (By the way, these articles, like those by Luxenberg, treat Islam seriously and operate entirely within the logic of the faith in performing their analyses.) He argues that Islam is an Apocalyptic religion.

This is a test. I'm trying to see if there is something blocking my attempts to post. Thanks.

Victoria:

There are several points that I'd like to cover, but I only have a little time this evening. I'll write more later.

I wanted to begin with my most specific rebuttals. First, a few posts ago, you described the aim of Hindu or Buddhist enlightenment through meditation as vaguely selfish or purposeless, lacking any sense of community. While the details of Buddhist and Hindu understandings of the place of mankind in the universe result in different paths from Judeo-Christian traditions, the aim of meditation is the same as the end that you attribute to Islam, a compassionate end to suffering. The end is achieved by spreading enlightment first attained personally and communicated by example and education, and the experience of enlightenment isn't supposed to be gratifying in any way. Enlightenment is self-effacing. Secondly, in Judaism the idea of a chosen people isn't supposed to be a blessing as much as a burden that one must understand and accept with both eyes open.

In both cases you seem to have taken the least generous approach to understanding the ideas of other religions while you've been extremely generous with Islam. For example, you point to what you consider to be a pervasive patriarchy in Judaism as a source of your problems with the faith without noting that those traditions have no basis to my knowledge in Torah law, but in the case of Islam you go out of your way to absolve the religion of responsibility for common practices by claiming that Fatwas sanctioning discrimination against women misread the Koran. As far as I can tell the scriptural and legal position of women in Judaism is at least as good as the scriptural and legal position of women in Islam. I think that this article offers a good summary:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Judaism#Orthodox_Judaism_and_women

I'm not sure that Islam can offer anything unique compared to the other religious traditions that I've mentioned if they're treated with the same generosity. Of course I could be wrong, but I've tried to no avail to develop a generous interpretation of my own and discover its uniqueness and message of hope. I've done a great deal of studying, but I'm still no expert. I'm assuming that Muslims should be in a better position to explain it to me, which is the reason that I've invited interpretations on this message board. The Koran desparately needs a high level explanation. Without a theology, its literal reading strikes me like this:

http://flag.blackened.net/liberty/woodworth-koran.html

The reviewer is an atheist and thinks that all religion is stupid, but I'm much more open-minded. I only need to know how you reconcile the Koran and its depiction of God with depiction of God in the Gospels or the depiction of God in the Torah. I know how some Christians reconcile the accounts in the Gospels with the conflicting accounts in the Old Testament, and I know how some Jews reconcile the conflicting images of God between books of the Torah. Islam has before it the task of reconciling its texts with those that came before it, and if it claims that those texts are corrupted, it must reconcile the plainly vindictive image of God in the Koran with its rhetorical claim to be a religion of peace. Just for emphasis, I don't expect you to defend every claim that anyone calling themselves a good and true Muslim might make, but how about offering something equivalent to these passages from the Bible:

All who have sinned apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law that are righteous in god's sight but the doers of the law who will be justified. When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law unto themselves. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.

Romans 2:12-16

The passage clearly states that what God most desires of you is that you lead a life in good conscience. God doesn't even expect you to believe in the divinity of Jesus as indicated in the following quote from the Gospels:

Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this life or in the age to come.

Matthew 12:32

There are certainly fundamentalist Christians who'll make offensive claims about the exclusivity of Christian salvation, but my treatment of Christianity is based on the texts rather than the opinions of zealots. I could give you a comparable treatment of the Baghavad-Gita, but I've loaned my copy to a friend. Can you explain why you believe Islam to be peaceful and hopeful and base the explanation on the texts? Can you reconcile its curses against non-believers regardless of their characters with a view of God as just and loving? Without this explanation, it seems terribly weak to me compared to Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, and Buddhism. Again, I'm open to the possibility of reconciliation and explanation, but I can't devise one myself.

In my next post, given the state of my understanding of Muslim theology and my belief in its incompleteness and my rejection of its ritual singularity and power, I should explain the reason that I believe Islam has sucessfully spread. I'll try to offer my explanation for its appeal tomorrow, and I'm curious if you think that any of my observations describe adherents or converts that you know. Until my next posting, take care.

welcome back joseph- its actually very simple forme joseph-

i studied judaism several years ago and had 2 problems with it-
1) it seems elitist to proclaim a favored status with god and while it may be true- (actually i believe the temple being destroyed and consequent diaspora indicated a certain revision for the time being on that point) implies that the rest are disfavored and it seems to impart (sometimes) a certain arrogance or disregard for others as valid and beloved creatures of god.

2) i was a christian and very attached to Jesus(ata) and His message and the denial of that seemed a spiritual retrogression to me-

although i did spend time with some orthodox men in the temple at evening hours believe it or not- they were happy to talk and discuss with me-

and i really respect jewish people who are sincere

also its an incredibly patriarchal and oftimes sexist religion that has excluded women and subjugated them in a real sense- the laws of orthodox judaism in regards to the females are somewhat restrictive.

As posted above- Islam is a PROgression for me- its the last time God chose to speak to mankind-
who wouldnt be interested in the last word?

you see me talking about the need of the muslim community to educate women- because it is a right for women to be educated- you will find no rebuttals here form any men stating its against islam- we all know it is desirable.

corrupted faith? what does one have to gain from casting disparagement at nother- that is not my way of discussion so dont worry there-

no wi also have to go but i will re-read your posts and try to anticipate your questions- these were just some quick thoughts-
so if it is not up to snuff that is why-
as always joseph i appreciate your questions because they force me to constantly re-examine and r-evaluate my own faith and force me to clarify to myself why i believe what i do- i am still learning-peace

Victoria:

I want to anticipate one point that you might make: Jews basically don't accept converts. The charge simply isn't true. Here are links to articles about Peruvian Indians converted by Orthodox Jewish missionaries:

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/444.htm
http://www.tni.org/archives/landau/peru.htm

The emphasis in conversions to Judiasm is on the commitment that you must have to God. Conversion isn't as easy as saying a few words, however, conversion is and always has been open to those who love God.

Victoria:

I don't have too long to write today---I have to catch up with work from vacation, so I'll write a longer, more detailed reply later---but I can summarize my reply with a question: why not be an orthodox Jew? I think that in the process of answering this question you'll see why I want answers to at least a few of the questions, which I forego repeating here, from my previous posts.

(I hope that you'll try to anticipate some of my replies and save some time. For instance, if you give the standard Muslim answer that Judaism is somehow a corrupted faith, please, explain exactly how it's corrupted, and include detailed descriptions of scriptural corruptions or judicial perversions of Judaism.)

Thanks, and Happy New Year.

I would contend sir saad that what is needed is more training and educating of women in islam-
when i with the intention of proving equality in islam study and learn- i am finding that it is frequently not the Qur'an that is in need of reform- but the traditional patriarchal interpertors who are perpetuating inequality because that is what they want it to be-

as a woman- my bias is to substantiate equality-
for instance 4:34- and beating of the wife- a repulsive and abusive interpertation- on deep investigation- this is a jaundiced cultural patriarchal interpertation-
and manymany male scolars disagree with this

living amongst the turkish community in new york- as an american i am not overly impressed with their attitudes towards women here- there is no social services of any kind provided and no place in the mosque for them-
it really is the cultural and traditional practices that are aberrant-

sadly all i can do is read english translations and research arabic meanings in the most rudimentary fashion

where can a lady go here to learn?

dont throw the baby out with the bath water

When one mentions reforming Islam, muslims are quick to say: it's not islam it's its followers. We need to change people's mindsets. Well, one can't change people's mindsets if one doesn't reform the book taken by literally by them. On which their mindsets are based no matter how wrongly. The solution for improving the lot of muslims is encorgaing them to move with changing times and trust that the god would forgive them, after all god's supposed to merciful. Education would help too in making them aware that there're different ways of doing things. Others have the right to disagree but, the consequence for not reforming the koran we would be, condoning women's undisputable inequality in Islam. Women needing four witnessess to press charges in rape cases under sharia law. Women getting 1/2 of what a man gets in property inheritance cases and women having to defer to men. Perhaps muslims should visit turkey where muslims, jews and christians have leanred to co-exist and prosper.

im thinking-- i can appreciate the thing about alienation in some services- i used to cringe at the over emotional and it seemed showy gushy worship services ive been to- it seemed at times that people were competing for attention by the amount of response they emoted- and i more contemplative and was looking for even one nanosecond of some sense of depth - i cant see how someone can begin to hear god if theyre making so much noise- it is such a distraction to me- such a noisy mindednessto sift through- on the other hand- buddhist and hindu meditations seem to be running after a 'goal' a feeling- a sensual confirmation of "feeling good" an openness yes- but in that way open to anything that filters through- without taking responsibility for ones thoughts- thoughts that may want to manifest into reality- so you are open to any mischevious entity- unconscious in a way.

the thing in islam i had to get used to was praying with my eyes open- i couldnt slipinto a dreamland- a fantasy landscape of visuals or whatever my mind chose to fixate on because the mind needs a focal point! even that feeling of timelessness is still a sensation- a sensory stimulus always some form of sensory stimuli-
for instance i practiced chi gong for awhile, and wed go in the bitter winter and sit on ice cold cement in lotus posture for 45 minutes- well everything below my waist was dead- i couldve chopped my legs off with an axe and not felt it- so the body was subjugated for awhile- but to what purpose?
what possible value is there in yoga or controlling the functions of the body- this body is definitely going to win!
concetrating on a mandala or focusing aid still ends up being a drifting experience that might sate my sense of peace for a while- but ultimately i am the only one feeling good so it has no deep real impact- unless i want to show others how to feel good and everybody feels good- but isnt there more to life than just feeling good? what real lessons and development of my discernment- wisdom-growing and improving as a human unit does feeling good do for me?

and catholic contemplation- ok

i digressing i always do
my point is- in isalm i cannot get lost in 'contemplation' i have to constantly refocus my attention to ALLAH- i have to consciously and actively participate-(in a submissive and passive way if that makes sense) in my worship- wich happens with all too little frequency- to actually emote love- to worship is a rarity but i consciously try and with that trying i hope to get better at it- i ask for the quality of my prayer to improve- my desire to pray to increase and these things actually happen!!!
and that worship which is so hard to ever acheive is the only few seconds of really the only work there is on this planet- everything else is busywork- it is the only thing of value that will last will hone my inner instincts intuition those ethereal connections that are my reason for being.

with that reason for being i actually feel pain others beings feel- i get a sick feeling if im forced to kill a bug that may bring disease to those i love-i have to be SO CONSCIOUS of all these little automatic actions that are called living- and there comes this validation- this do deep inner feeling that the universe and ALLAH are in concert with my being- that i am not a great cosmic drain and vacuum but that sometimes i have some small energy output that is a giving- not a taking but that is an elaborate arrogance to imafgine i am giving anything maybe its like a conduit where im actually taking energy because i dont create it but at least possibly i am metabolizing it in a way that is not taking.
o well ive gone off again
peace and again ive answered not one question.
thanks for the patience i will try to pay attention to the questios next time
but i think islam offers that prayer experience you are hoping and cant imagine the holistic one
peace

Victoria:

Thanks for the reflections. I won't have time for a long reply now---I'm leaving for vacation tonight---but I'll certainly pick up the conversation after I return in January.

While I appreciate your sense of connectedness in Islam, I have to say that I can't imagine that there would be one ritual formula that would speak to all people. For example, I for one don't like singing. I've grown to be less emotional than other people, and engaging in a shared ritual like singing when I don't share the feelings that make one want to sing only heightens the sense of alienation that I seek to avoid through religion. A church or religion that expected my experience of my relationship with God to perfectly match everyone else's experience and to be reflected in the same enthusiasm for particular rituals would estrange me, and I think that many people feel the same way. I'm not unique.

An approach to religion has to address all of the ways in which we are made in God's image and unique in the universe, or it can't reach everyone or be complete and distinct from an experience like romantic nationalism as embodied in nazism or a totally generic awareness of the commonality of all living things. The road to my feelings runs through my reason, so I personally turned to theology, which is the reason that I've focused on theology in my posts and Islam.

Your interest in ritual communion with others seems tied to the belief that communion with God requires abolishing your own ego. I also believe that ego is the main obstacle each of us faces in relating to God, and every religion addresses ego directly. In fact, examining ego might be the most essential feature of religion.

The point of Hindu meditation and the significance of a Hindu's bow in greeting is to acknowledge and appreciate the essential unity in Brahman, the divine ground, God, of Atman, the divine spark that inhabits each of us. Meditation is self-effacing. Buddhists meditate for similar reasons differing from Hindus largely over the nature of the divine ground, Brahman. (All of this is accroding to my readings of the Bhagavad-Gita and the Diamond and Heart Sutras.)

Some Christianity explains the relationship of God to man and man to God by estrangement that is the consequence of man's egotistical judgement of creation and spurning of God. In this view, evil is really a construction of the mind of men. If you truly believe in God and the afterlife, how can you judge a premature death, poverty, suffering, or anything else in this life as evil? God loves us and wants a relationship with us, and in the Christian theological view, the only way that God can overcome man's ego and bridge the gap between us without destroying free choice of the will and the other divine gifts is through incarnation, setting a humbling example of perfect, selfless love, which occurs when Jesus is crucified.

The point of the whole theological development of Christianity, Hinduism, and Buddhism is suspension of the ego. Islam is not unique in this way though the form of the experience as effacing your ego might be easier for you to access. My interest in Islam is in the way that it might claim to be different or superior to the other religions theologically. Why is there evil in the world? Why did God make mankind? Why do we die? Why doesn't God speak directly to each of us? Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, and Buddhism each offer a coherent answer to these questions. They differ only in their assumptions about the nature of the divine, of God, and which you embrace becomes a matter of your personal belief in the nature of the universe and God.

How does Islam answer these questions? The Mu'tazili school only attempted to answer these questions, and it died a thousand years ago. The only answers that I can find in Islam now are incomplete or incoherent. (Accepted, living Muslim theology either embraces predestination and asserts that the divine can't be explored with reason, which avoids the question by denoucing reason, or offers a patchwork of inconguous ideas as, for example, when Islam claims that God is omnipotent but creates mankind as imperfect servants. Theology is the process of reconciling these ideas, and Islam needs to explain itself before I can believe that it has any divine content.)

How would you answer these questions? If I can help by offering an example, I'll be happy to spell out in great detail a few Christian and Jewish theological frameworks and compare and contrast them.

I only wondered about your identity because you wrote about many of the same things as "AllahServant," and since we were in the middle of a conversations, I wanted to know if I should resume it.

Thanks, and I'm looking forward to your reply though I probably won't get to make another reply until 3 January. Until then, have a good holiday season.

A salaamu alaikum all- peace of god to everyone-
i watched barabara walters (second half by chance) special last night and at the end she asked people what they thought heaven was- mostly people said peace and things like that-their descriptions were all pretty similar.

the heaven ive always imagined is something i try to get a piece of here on earth-

i am hungry for the connection with other people- the connection that comes most purely when we are out of our egos and focusing on something outside of ourselves- there can be a temporal connection when people are joined in a common cause- such as saving a life or helping someone in some way-

but the deepest connection that ive ever felt- and its reproducible so it has some scientific validity (dont you think?)

years ago i was in a mosque with some ladies and they prayed and invited me-
we all were joined at the hips, arms and feet- we moved together in one unified fluid poetic motion and were like one body- one mind- one heart-
it was palapable-

science tries to connect us in many ways but falls short because it is dependent on an outside source-

every time i put my forehead to the floor i am connected again- im connected with tall the foreheads in the world and the connecting force of ALLAH-

do you know that every secondof the day there is someone somewhere who is praying like that?
like some incredible cosmic clock- like a tremendous earthly flower that unfolds and blossoms- i like to think of the whole earth and the peoples all doing like a prayerful "wave" (like in sports) if i knew computer graphics i would make a depiction of it but i dont have access to that technology-

i know this is rambling and maybe off point but i thought id share it because it is a powerful and beautiful thing for me-
all i can do is be so grateful- i am grateful for the breath and blood in my veins-the yummy food i eat- and the very satisfying discourse i can engage in here-
you want to hear a poem i wrote after prayer one time? okay here it is it goes like this-
its an indulgence i know-
also i give personification to god who is beyond personification

when dawn breaks
hear the muezzins prayer call
what draws me there?
the east, the earth, the Sind-
what love i have He is ALLAH, my all
and calls to me
on air-in breath- the wind...

ps ive never been to the sind but was immersed in afghani and indian literature at the time

peace peace peace peoplets

no im definitely always victoria- its funny on another question someone accused me of being a man, but im really not a man at all- i sure do write alot on these posts especially the pope question and common ground i just made a post on is jesus the son i think ill try and copy it here if i can manage it it answers no questions at all but maybe since there are muslims here someone might like it possibly
peace

Victoria:

I forgot to mention that I thought that the Yogi Bear reference was funny and thank you for the compliment, but I don't think that you've given yourself enough credit. Scholarship is only a willingness to study, ask questions, and search for answers---these are my only qualifications---so you seem well qualified to speculate about your faith. I'm looking forward to your posts. Take care.

Victoria:

Before I write any long replies, I just wanted to ask if you had posted under the handle "AllahServant" before. The question isn't terribly important, but before I replied I wanted to see if I should try to read your posts with those posts as a single train of thought.

You don't have to worry about offending me, so feel free to write anything that comes to mind. Don't worry about the technical problems with posting; technical problems could happen to anyone.

Merry Christmas and best wishes for a happy holiday season. (I believe that the pilgrimage season is this month, but I'm not sure. I intended my season's greetings above to include best wishes for any holidays that you observe.)

as conclusive proof of my own ineptitude somehow i have got the posts backwards the last should be read first- mercy im such a monkey

JOSEPH- I am definitely not a scholar.
I will preface everything here with the disclaimer that i may be wrong and it is my opinion.
my own inadequate fumblings. ididnt even know there was such a thing as speculative theology- but it sounds like what i have been trying to speculate on my whole life. i am not satisfied with what i perceive as your assessment statement of mutual gratification- (not your statement- the concept itslef)

i dont believe the doctor here represented himself as an intellectual or had the inclination to address deeper issues as his point seemed to be a more practical aspect.

i dont know if any of this counts because i am not directly answering your specific questions

you stated that islam makes no attempt to answer these questions, but then gave an instance where islam DID attempt to answer these questions-
(mutazli).

perhaps its time to reopen such speculation.

you are clearly smarter thn the average bear- and i do not feel i am up to your challenge-

but there are differences in my own interaction with ALLAH than there were with other faiths.

AS A SIDE ON POLYGYNY-
many valid scholars have asserted that since the Quran itslef states that completely equal treatment of the co-wives is impossible- it actually is an invalidation of polygyny.

also the doctor was saying that since we must obey the LAWS OF THE LAND it is illegal here so we must respect as muslims the laws where we live.
ACTUALLY THIS IS NOT A modern INTERPERTATION, BUT TRADITIONAL- modern does not equal evil.

AS FAR AS RIBA(USURY) i have spoken many times with muslims who have come up with sharia based financing-

which is actually 100% intrest! 100% interest!!!!
this is a major weasel maneuver if i ever saw one.

i am such a monkey i am having problems with this post it just somehow posted itself before i was finished. o thats the preview. i am more than happy to share my personal observations of how i see islam and ALLAH and what deeper issues they have satisfied in my but the bottom line also is that it is also based on the very subjective mystical experiences ive had and my interpertation of them

one thing i love about islam and i cant find the passage right now is the statement it makes in the Quran that says do not blindly follow your parents but read this book yourself and using your own reasoning and intelligence decide for yourself the validity of it. or something like that
because i came to islam socialized as an american i think sometimes i have to sift through many many "traditions" and cultural practices that people claim are islamic but have nothing to back up their claim. i didnt have a grandma telling me how to be muslim i have to figure it out myself through reading studying and prayer.
theres no heiarchy in islam(not supposed to be)
no intercessor- i stand completely personally responsible for my own actions-

theres also the subjugation of the individual to the needs of society whereas christian america has trained us to emphsize the rights of the individual over the good of society-

i dont want to go on too long and bore or agitate anyone.
i realize my response is wholly inadequate to your postulations.
i am testing the waters to see if im attacked too much because i dont know if my speculations might anger some.
ive also been asking for 7 years about art in islam without success.
well peace joseph i will reply again if the water is safe

AllahServant:

I appreciate the effort and look forward to the replies. You seem to have a lot of courage, and you can certainly depend on my patience. (Perhaps, if this goes far enough, you could venture a rebuttal to Christian or Jewish theology.)

By the way, I have worked out some approaches to Islamic theology that reconcile Islam with Christianity and Judaism, but they're based on ideas that I know conflict with dogma in mainstream Islam. For example, the Koranic account of paradise is plainly different from the Torah and Gospel accounts. For example, when asked about our physical needs in the afterlife, Jesus describes the resurrected as like angels, essentially asexual and without physical wants or needs. (I can look up the chapter and verse if needed.) I read an account of some Koranic scholarship by a German linguist writing under the psuedonym Christopher Luxenberg suggesting that some readings of the Koran that are nonsensical stem from misunderstandings of the vocabulary of the Koran, which incorporated many Aramaic words or linguistic transformations of Aramaic words. He uses his method to offer a reading that reinterprets the passages about houri to be images of wine grapes in paradise rather than virginal youth awaiting believers. Using this approach you can reconcile the teaching with Jewish and Christian understandings of paradise. (In Jewish theology, descriptions of the gardens of paradise are figures of speech used to relate the glory of paradise and not literal visions of gardens of hedonistic pleasures.) Of course, there might be problems or shortcomings of his method---I'm sure that most Muslims will have strong objections---but the method represents a new direction in scholarship and presents new theological and conversational possibilities. Sadly, it was banned in several readctionary countries such as Pakistan. There is a very brief account here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxenberg

Unfortunately, the book hasn't been translated into English yet.

Luxenberg's work also dovetailed with the work of a professor of religious history named David Cook. Cook studied the origins of Islam as an ecumenical movement, and his work also presents intriguing possibilities for the reconciliation of Islam, Judaism, and Christianity.

My efforts and explorations in this area probably don't conform to traditional Islamic teaching, which is why I've asked for suitable references if they exist.

Thanks.

Joseph:

I am not into making Dawah. I am willing to answer your questions and will later today. I am a little under the weather so have some patience please. The Jackson book contains some relevant thought it is not the focus of the book.

AllahServant:

I've read about Maturidi already, and I have no reason to believe that the accounts are incorrect. His work is closely related to the Ash'ari school of thought, basically another form of philosophical skepticism, which is a degenerate form of rationality. (I've also looked at the Athari school, so there's no need to suggest readings from it, either.) Ash'ari, Maturidi, and Athari thought to varying degrees reject the possibility of being rational about religion. While I'll stipulate that the Maturidi school, which appears to be much less common than the Ash'ari school, is less degenerate than the others---by all accounts, it asserts the possibility of rationally concluding that some acts are sinful independent of revelation---by philosopical standards, it's still degenerate. It doesn't attempt to answer any of the questions that I've posed. If you're sure that Maturidi will answer my questions, I'll be happy to read it, but you're going to have to tell me where I can get it in print in English. (It's not available on Amazon.)

If I'm wrong, if these works attempt to answer basic questions of speculative theology, then I think that you should be able to summarize those answers. Could you outline the answers that one of these authors provides? Perhaps, you could even present your own understanding of the answers to these questions. At the very least, you should avow that one of these works provides a coherent answer to the question of why God created man.

I'd love to read a work of Muslim speculative theology. (I'm not prepared to waste a lot of time with inferior works, so I'd like to know that a book will attempt to answer fundamental questions before I read it.) Sadly, most of the encounters that I have with Muslims, either in person or on discussion boards, end with the Muslim asserting that some Muslim, somewhere, knows the answer, a most unhelpful conclusion to the discussion. (The one's that don't end as above end with the suggestion that I go and talk to an Imam. Why don't they relay the questions themselves?) Naturally, the questions are as frightening and daunting to Muslims as they are to the uninformed of any faith, but Islam is different because the Koran doesn't answer these questions directly (in contrast to the Baghavad-Gita and the Diamond and Heart Sutras), and it has no well-known source for speculative theology developed from scriptures (such as Augustine or Maimonides). If you have a commitment to Dawah, I hope that you'll spare me the intellectual snipe hunt and answer the questions or point me to the correct work.

I've set before this forum a simple task: form and answer fundamental questions of Islamic speculative theology. I can complete it for Jewish, Christian, Hindu, and Buddhist theology. In addition to a careful study of the Koran, I've looked at a few other works such as Sayid al-Qutb's "Social Justice in Islam" and Alijah Izetbegovic's "The Islamic Declaration," and despite my sincerest effort, I can't find an account of speculative theology in Islam. The best that I've been able to find are accounts of Mu'tazili thought, which is dead in the Muslim world and doesn't represent the state of Muslim thought and by the accounts that I've read, incomplete compared to Augustine and Maimonides, anyway.

I'm happy to answer questions of speculative Jewish and Christian theology for you. (For Hindu and Buddhist theology, I'll have to go over my margin notes in those works, but if important, I can answer questions about those as well.) Can you answer my questions? Can you gather the answers? Can you recommend the correct work, something in print in English? I took the time to read every word of the Koran, and I gave it a very fair reading to the point of devising my own explanations for passages that seem plainly to imply predestination, so I hope that you'll take seriously my commitment to study and propose only appropriate works or seek references from other people.

(Jackson's work doesn't sound at all appropriate. According to the Amazon summary, it attempts to explain the spread of Islam among Afro-Americans without corresponding spread among caucasians and Hispanic-Americans.)

Joseph:

I was not responding to you but to Dr. Hathout only.

But in regards to your last post. There are many Islamic Scholars. In fact, many American Islamic scholars who are not apologists and can very clearly speak to a theological discourse.

May I recommend some books for you:
Kitab Al-Tawheed by Maturidi
Islam and the Black American Dr. Sherman Jackson
Mughni by Abdul-Jabar

Hope this helps and if it does not please let me know and maybe I can help you out.

The last post made only an oblique reference to the questions in my previous post, and instead of attempting to answer my questions, the author resorted to an evasion. After admitting that one needs to know little to be a good Muslim---in fact the less, the better---she implies that becoming a scholar of Islam clears up all of these questions. Again, I ask how? Where are all of these Muslim scholars who are prepared to answer questions of speculative theology directly rather than claim that the questions are blasphemous or inappropriate?

I also want to take this chance to clear up one thing. Jurisprudence, which is a kind of scholarship dealing with the application of the law to new situations and in Islam includes interpretive frameworks like the Doctrine of Abrogation, is different from speculative theology. Islam has jurisprudence in spades---so does Judaism and Catholicism---but as opposed to Judaism and Catholicism, it has almost no theology. Theology is important, and you can't ignore it or pretend that it's the same as jurisprudence.

"It is not the purpose of this Treatise to make its totality understandable to the vulgar or to beginners in speculation, nor to teach those who have not engaged in any study other than the science of the Law---I mean the legalistic study of the Law. For the purpose of this Treatise and of all those like it is the science of the Law in its true sense."

-- The Guide to the Perplexed, Introduction to the First Part
-- Maimonides

Unfortunately this is what happens when a non-Muslim ran webiste promotes the thought of Muslim scholarly interpretation from a non-scholar. Dr. Hathout is a Doctor and has contributed in many social ways to our communities, but in no way shape or form is someone who I would turn to for acvice on Islamic Law or Fiqh for he is not trained in this manner. He is a Doctor as in a physician.

It is true that all one needs to know to be a good Muslim is little. But it is also true that to be a scholar of Islam requires appropriate and serious training.

It would be prudent on our part to not follow the other prominent world religions and compromise our beliefs because( for an immigrant living in the West) it makes your daily life more palatable for you.

What our country has always been about and for is for the right to stand up for what one believes and to be able to live one's life with dignity as one is so long as it is not ill-defined with not letting others live in peace as well.

You cannot change Qu'ran to suit one's needs or it is no longer Islam. It is something else.

Riba is Riba bottom line no matter how one wishes ot were different.

And as far as polygamy, we do not practice polygamy which is the practice of both men and women being able to marry multiple partners. It is in fact polygyny that we practice. Polygyny is not something that is outdated. In fact, were the broader non-Muslim society expsosed to such a practice mentioned in their Bible no less then it might solve some of the social and moral decay of our society at lasrge with huge acts of adultery and fornication. It would seem that you like them are advocating for what the Chritians have done in the past. Get rid of some of these laws and understanding and it is ok,i.e. polygyny. However, it was not even ok for them.

Like children communities need discipline. This is how children know ultimately they are loved even if they resist it intitially. This is not even my idea but a prominent Rabbi. And it is so on.

When it comes to polygyny which of the favors of your lord would you deny?????? As a woman I would want for my sister what I want for myself and given that we outnumber men my sister in Islam may never have that opportunity. And not to mention we do not marry outside or is this something you would reconsider as well.

I have known sisters who are in their thirties and never got the opportunity to marry because there are no suitors available. And noting it is illegal, polygyny, is only a matter of the population's voice. In other words, just because it is illegal today does not mean as Americans we cannot make it legal tomorrow.

What is it the Prophet said, but that you will follow them so that you would follow them right into the hole of the lizard.

Dr. Hathout, I would implore you not to sell your deen for such a small price.

Muslims have never been a good minority. They always end up splitting the country apart. Look what happened to India and Pakistan. What do you think about Muslims in the West who want Sharia Law and want to replace the constitution with the Koran. Good try Mr. Hathout!

"My answer to those who ask 'What was God doing before he made heaven and earth?' is not 'He was preparing Hell for people who pry into mysteries'. This frivolous retort has been made before now, so we are told, in order to evade the point of the question. But it is one thing to make fun of the questioner and another to find the answer. So I shall refrain from giving this reply. For in matters of which I am ignorant I would rather admit the fact than gain credit by giving the wrong answer and making a laughing-stock of a man who asks a serious question."

-- The Confession, Book XI, Section 12
-- Augustine of Hippo

I think that I struck a chord with the author of the last post when he characterized as a missstatement the description of Islam as merely a set of rules. I'm glad that the author recognized my challenge, however, he still didn't answer any of my questions or offer an argument to refute my claim.

If Islam is not simply a set of rules, how do you explain Muslim practices? For example, what is the meaning of circumcision? I can tell you precisely what cicumcision means to messianic Jews and Christians and why Christians no longer require the practice. I doubt most Muslims can offer a reasoned explanation; they're likely substitute for an explanation an observation that the Koran requires it.

Of course, questions about the reasons for particular practices are of little importance compared to the larger questions of speculative theology for which Islam seems to offer no answers at all, at least no answers that make any sense. Why did God make man? Why is there evil in the universe? What is the position of reason in the universe? You can't hide from these questions, and they should keep you awake at night.

When I've talked to Muslims in the past and asked them these questions, I invariably receive the same answers. Muslims will tell you that the Koran says that God created man to serve Him and that the Koran says that God tests man with hardships. The problem is that no Muslim that I've ever met can answer the obvious follow up questions. Why would an omnipotent God require servants? If an omnipotent God required servants, why would He create imperfect servants or servants with free wills? Why would God reward a short lifetime of faithful service with an eternity of His service to His created subject?

I keep checking this board for an answer, but I don't expect to ever get one. Sadly, no one is more receptive to a good, sound explanation than I am. If you have answers, I'm all ears, but I won't let anyone hustle me with handwaving about superior virtue and culture. I've already made the leap of faith: I believe in God. Now I expect to hear reason rather than dogma. Here I am! Convince me! Convert me!

First, I myself am a Muslim-American. Born and raised in the United States. But I find that at the end of the day, I only associate myself with one thing, humanity. And by doing so, I am automatically fulfilling the obligations of Muslims. This is the reason why Islam came to Earth, to us mankind. It was to set things straight.

Now i want to make two clear distinctions. I am in no way saying this is the view of Muslim-Americans only, nor am i saying that the Islamic Sharia law is the only way to live in this world.

Everything Dr. Hathout said I find to be very objective, very well-thought out, and really reflects the very idealogies advocated by Islamic law.

Of course, you will have those people that will beg to differ, that will discredit, and that will seek a negative tone to Islam, and not to mention, look at the glass half empty with the defense being realism.

Religions do evolve. YES THEY DO. HOWEVER....the QURAN was brought down to Earth not to be changed. And interestingly enough, God does not say "Thou shall not change the Quran", God has said, "Thou will not change the QUran" So the question here is not about whether we are going to change the religion or not.

We wont.

Its that simple.

But what we can modify and adjust, is everything else. What we need to learn from is the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh). And for those that do not know, Sunnah is the teachings and lifestyle of the Beloved Prophet (pbuh).

We understand we are in a different structure of society, when compared to that of Arabia at that time. So therefore, we need to adjust. And Dr. Hathout is right.

Islam was not merely brought down to give rules, as previous misstatements have been made in the comments before here.

Islam is about the bigger picture, its about taking a step back for a second and looking at life, seeing what is around you, understanding where you fit in, understanding that we Muslims have a job here in this world, to be good people, to be the ideal people that God wanted us to be. So when adjustments are made we are making them in conformity with Islamic teachings.

I believe change is not necessarily a bad thing. When the people in authority in this world change things, or structure them differently, whether its Western or Eastern powers, the only thing Muslims need to worry about is changing with them.

Bottom line: Dont sacrifice your beliefs for the sake of society, but co-exist for the sake of humanity, understand your purpose, and let others live theirs.

Islam says so.

One does not need to look far to see that islam is completely incompatible with modern 21st century humanity.

Sorry. Nice try, "doctor." Spare us.

The fundamental problem with traditional Islamic Law is that on many critical issues it is seriously at variance with basic universal humanitarian ethics.
Slavery, polygamy, concubinage, child-marriage, usury, freedom of conscience, corporal punishment and on a number of vital issues Islamic Law as understood and accepted by mainstream Muslims gives solutions which are not acceptable by almost all societies in this day and age.
The problem is traditional Islamic Law is based on the twin pillars of Quran and Sunnah(Practice of the Prophet) and hence frozen in time.
The new model of Islamic Law should be also be based on two pillars:
One pillar should be the Revelation received from the scripture (Quran,Hadith/Sunnah) and the second pillar should be all the Signs provided by our Creator through the ages which we have learned through all the Arts and Sciences.
Therefore, Muslims should reject polygamy or slavery, not because these are unlawful according to Western standards or they are hard on some societies, but because the accumulated experiences and knowledge that all human beings have gained throughout ages say that
these acts are plainly unjust and unethical.
Once Muslims are prepared to broaden their horizon and look outside the box by critically evaluating, and then also, provide check and balance to the traditional sources of religion, with the latest knowledge gained by our senses, only then, there is any chance of seeing a genuine Glasnost and Perestroika in the Muslim world.

While I appreciate the effort at tolerance made by the author, he never addresses any of the deeper philosophical problems with Islam. Islam is devoid of any kind of speculative theology that might give conceptual unity to its practice; it's just a set of rules.

I've read the confessions of Augustine of Hippo, the Gospels, parts of Maimonides' "Guide to the Perplexed," the Baghavad-Gita, the Diamond and Heart Sutras, and the Koran, and I can safely say that Islam is the only religion of the religions represented by these writings making no attempt to understand the relationship of God to man and man to God by appyling reason to its scripture and history. The pinnacle of Islamic theology is the Ash'ari school of thought, which rejects the possibility of rationally analyzing religion; it destroyed the Greek influenced Mu'tazili school of theology, the only Muslim thought resembling speculative theology, around a thousand years ago. In the end, Islam's vaunted rationality consists entirely of rejecting the possibility of being rational about religion.

Islamic theology leaves Islam at an impasse intellectually and historically, and I would like to hear a Muslim scholar at least attempt to explain their faith with the courage and openess of an Augustine or a Maimonides. I don't know if fundamental Muslim beliefs can be reconciled with reality, the contradictions between scripture and history, and the condition of the world, but the onus to try belongs to Muslims. Until Muslims try to understand their faith, I think that there is little hope for a reconciliation of the Muslim world to the rest of the world or an Islamic renaissance.

(Speculative theology entails taking as small a set of assumptions as possible and trying to understand the way in which the world evolved from those assumptions and man's place in the world. For example, in some Christian and some Jewish theology, Genesis is understood to be a figurative account of the relationship of God to man and man to God. Christians might claim that Genesis implies that God creates man for the active animation and extension of creation, and to this end God equips man with reason, emotional awareness, a capacity for faith, and free will, the ways in which God creates man is his own image. You have personal experience with God's motive for creation; you create because creation gratifies you, and you feel gratified by creation because you are made in God's image. Genesis implies that man turns from God in the Garden of Eden when he eats the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, essentially when he passes judgement on creation, and the rest of scripture explains God's plan for the reconciliation of God and man, the redemption of his beloved creation. The Bhagavad Gita explains Hinduism with perhaps even greater philosophical depth with an emphasis on order and chaos as opposed to the Judeo-Christian emphasis on good and evil. Buddhism has similar, perhaps even greater, philosopical depth. What are the basic questions about the nature of existence that Islam tries to answer? How does it answer its basic questions? Frame the philosophical discussion in any way that you please, but until Islam answers these questions for itself at least, it will remain in a state of intellectual and, more importantly, spiritual rigor.)

Unfortunately Islam is only compatible with....Islam. Any other religious group will be subject to Islams rule once muslims become the majority and we all know what that means, convert, pay the tax or die. There is no moderate way to Islam, muslims have no desire to live and let live or share equally when it comes to non muslims, sad but true!

Another aspect of instropection that Islam would benefit from is the relationship to other religions. In particular the rights and treatment of persons of other faiths in 'Muslim' countries vs. in 'Western' societies.

For example, in some 'Muslim' countries, non-Muslims cannot own land, property, or businesses. These rights are afforded all residents in most 'Western' countries, certain restrictions notwithstanding.

Another example is the freedom to practice religion, and to freely convert from one religion to another. Islam's view of apostasy does not appear to be intellectually or theologically justified. If those same standards were applied in 'non-Muslim' countries, how could so many Moslems emigrate. The unability to accept foreigners among their own populations is ultimately a reflection of a weakness in Muslim thinking, and a defensive posture. It is also perhaps one aspect of the underdevelopment of many 'Muslim' countries, despite their vast resources.

Another example are gender issues, which have been much discussed elsewhere.

Same basic issues are prevalent here in the comments - "May God guide us all!", "..understand the true message of the Quran - because it is a living EVIDENCE of word of God".
..and more when you look closely...

all showing exactly the same problem: My god is the right way; my book was written by god, all other religions are false, etc..

No one religion has it right - never has, never will. Otherwise, we'd have only one religion to choose from rather than say, hundreds.

How can everyone be respectful of each other's religions, when everyone feels they are the righteous ones? (as evidenced by many entries declaring 'the [insert religious text name here] is the word of god' ).

God is the invisible friend of the religious.

This is not true. Mosleems (in millions) have been a serious minority in India for hundreds of years if not more. Please correct your facts.

I thank God for Dr. Hathout, and his work. Not only is his work critical, but his respectful tone, his evident compassion and fairness speak volumes about the kind of leadership that the true Islam can contribute to the world. If our Prophet (peace be upon him) were in the world now, he would speak in just these tones, and it would be clear to all people what the true nature of Islam really is, and its enormous potential for leadership in a world that is sorely in need.

A few months ago I read a remarkable book that explored the truly fundamental Islamic virtues, those virtues for which Muslims revere our Prophet (pbuh). They were not the martial or righteous tones which we Muslims too often show to the West. I was SO moved, and so inspired by these. I saw immediately that there need be no clash of civilizations, and it occurred to me in a rather breathtaking rush of understanding that the world now quite desperately needs what Islam has to offer. And that we are at a moment in history when Islam has the opportunity to refresh itself by returning to its original character and LEAD the world into a new era worthy of supporting the highest expression of what it means to be human.

Here is the litany of virtues that so moved me in this book -- the true original character of Islam: Trust, Trustworthiness, Truthfulness, Sincerity, Repentance, Forgiveness, Accountability & Responsibility, Compassion, Mercy, Charity, Patience, Perseverence, Forbearance, Modesty, Discretion & Humility, Purity, Clarity, Intention, Discernment & True Knowledge, Gratefulness, Generosity & Kindness, Responsiveness, Justice & Conflict Resolution, Creativity & Beauty, Courage, Strength & Vigilant Awareness, Contentment, Love, Inner Peacefulness, Courtesy, Chivalry, and Noble Character. (Source: The Book of Character, ed. Camille Helminski, published by The Book Foundation.)

This is the character modeled by our Prophet (pbuh). I know that these are virtues we can all agree on. If the images of Muslims that the media show the Western world were of this character, if the way we spoke to each other and to the world demonstrated these virtues, the true character of Islam would be evident to all. May we hold ourselves responsible for following our Prophet's example.

May God bless Dr. Maher Hathout, and speed his work.

Dear Dr. Maher Hathout,

In history, this is NOT the first time Muslims find themselves as a religious minority in a non-Muslim society. Even during the time of the prophet (pbuh), Muslims migrated to a Christian land for different reasons. And there have been many other cases in Islamic history where Muslims were a minority in other non-Muslim societies. Some of the differences as compared to present times are:

1. Proportions of the populations
2. Muslims lack the knowledge and understanding of their way of life (Islam)
3. Muslims don’t follow the rules/teachings of Islam as the early Muslims did

Whether the land is now west or east; the message of Quran and teachings of prophet do not change for entire world and for all times.

Isn't it a fact that a vast majority of Muslims and especially non-Muslims are ignorant of the true message of the Quran? Therefore, how can you expect justice and peace in the world?

If the intentions of your organization are sincere then please direct efforts to first understanding then serve the people by helping them understand the true message of the Quran - because it is a living EVIDENCE of word of God – UNCHANGED and for over fourteen hundred years. If anyone accepts or denies; so is their choice as there is no compulsion in religion.

But if the intentions are otherwise, like many who came and passed away with passage of time; who changed bible, torah, and tried to change message of Quran, the Quran will never be changed.

Feeble minds always want to and always will try to change and relax the rules rather than follow and just obey the rules of God.

May God guide us all!

Islam is a complex and sophisticated religious-ethical system, but as Dr. Hathout articulated it so well, it emerged as a majority system and has little experience as a minority religion. It would behoove Muslim thinkers to engage in discussion and dialogue with those of other religious-ethical systems that found ways to function well in the minority. When Judaism transitioned from a majority to minority system in ancient Iraq, it developed the concept, "dina de-malkhuta dina," meaning that in many economic and social matters, the law of the land is also the law of the Jews. However, in ritual, moral-ethical and purely religious matters, the law of Judaism remains the law for Jews. We can all learn positively from one another.

Reform in the Muslims' mindset is what we need today & not reforming the faith and its principles, irrespective of whether the adherents of Islam are living as a majority &/or minority. Ample historical data is available for both circumstances.

The good Doctor advocates adaptation & fitting-in. Islam advocates embracing what is good from whoever & wherever but "changing" all that is unhealthy, wherever & for whoever.

Examples of polygamy & usury does not amply demonstrate the intellectualism of good Doctor. What he may have challenged himself is an issue such as the total animalistic promiscuity now embraced in the modern western society as 'tolerance' ... The very idea of "marriage" & the "institution of marriage" is now altered in the West.

Reinterpretation[s] of neither the Quran, nor the Bible nor the Torah would allow or tolerate violating the honor of human species rather hold them accountable.

Pollyannish is our good Doctor, not as he claimed to be an intellectual.

At inception, Islam was most progressive in its era. After centuries of stagnation, it is time to evolve. Those were the dark days of Islam. They are behind us. It is refreshing that this call is now made, it is time to take leadership, time to take control of our destiny in Islam for the sake of the next generation, specially for those of us living in the West. This is not to be interpreted as "Easy Path", or "Go with the Flow". We do have our ways; it is our Islam. Fiqh and wisdom can prevail. We just need to apply good thinking to our new reality.
Well done Dr. Hathout.

I did not see the sentiment that you've derived from this post. He did not say take it easy- or follow the easy path. Islam is not a religion of hardship, but moderation. Hardship and ease are both extremes.
In an effort to be islamically correct I myself impose undue hardships upon my life. But I take no pride that it is a nobler path- for me it is actually easier than tackling the hard questions the Doctor is asking, and it seems is coming up with solutions for.
There is enough judgement coming from all quarters, please let us not attack or denigrate each other.
salaams

While Dr Hathout means well, his "easiness" strategy does not tackle the hard realities of the unethical and unjust standards and principles that form the nonMuslim Western societies, namely capitalism. BBC reported today that the rich 2% of the world own 50% of all the world's household wealth. And America, Europe, Japan, and a few other nations constitute 90% of the category of household wealth.

The West shaped the world of today: drew the borders, enforced them by treaties, sanctions, worldwide alliances and military might. The West helped install the many ruling dynasties and powerful elites in much of the Muslim world. The West dominates global trade, global monetary policies, and monopolizes technological and scientific expertise. The world of today is essentially how the West defined it. Muslim people who believe there can be better and believe that Islam offers solutions to the poverty, injustice, moral economic, political corruption, cannot just "take it easy" and 'go with the flow'.

They are driven to show the world there is another way to live: without compounding interest, without the dominance of moral economic political corruption, without artificial borders designed to divide, weaken, and exploit.
If Dr Hathout wants the "easy path", that's his business. But God has stated over and over again the path of the Prophets and Messengers of God and the believers that follow them is a hard steep difficult path.

I would like to think it could be possible for Muslims to adapt in the ways described in the article.

I'm just not sure it's possible for them to do so and remain true to Islam.