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LUBAVITCH jewry? SATMAR jewry [the ones who root with IRAN?? BOBOV jewry? HASSIDIC jewry? ULTRA-ORTHRODOX? or Sect/cult's?

EDITOR, Please, Please review, answer or Post All of It! Yes in Entirty, zero ommissions.!!

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It's a great achievement for Islamic leaders and scholars as well as Newsweek and the Washington post to present this imperative opportunity for inter cultural and global philosophical dialogue. What's important is that by exchanging our ideas and comments regarding inter religious relations and world events that affect our views of each other as fellow human beings. Since the advent of humanity, we strove to make sense of the world we live in and the lives we've experienced. Worldwide curiosities to learn the true nature of life and our universe is an exceptionally rare virtue upon life on Earth. In other words, we're the only known species on the planet who've pursued to unravel these great mysteries and developed written philosophies based upon our understanding of the world around us.
One such philosophy that lasted throughout the ages of humanity is commonly known as religion and spirituality. Ever since our early belief in the Sky God and the God Mother from ancient Pagan times, we vigorously pursued to unravel the truth about our most profound questions. As any educated person would know that religion and their core beliefs or faith have evolved over time. Paganism, Monotheism and Polytheism have been influenced by humanity as these great philosophies have influenced our perceptions and decisions in life over the ages. Over time humanity has embraced diverse religious faiths and spiritual convictions that continue to influence our behavior in our times and most likely beyond.
What's vital for humanity's progress and even survival is to know the true nature of faith itself. To understand the true origins of faith. But most of all is to accept the truth for whatever it may be. Each one of us will learn the absolute truth once we die. But until that time comes for anyone of us to depart this world, we really don't know the answer to God's existence nor do we have the absolute truth in regards to the true nature of God. Besides if we did possess the truth, there would've been only one religion on Earth with no diversification of any way, shape of form. There would only be one Holy Scripture written throughout human history.
Considering one's religious faith to be absolute, while considering others to be false would be ethnocentric at best. While collectively searching to unravel the mysteries on nature, life and the universe through sincere reasoning and serious research would be enlightening at its worst. Most importantly, we must accept the fact is that none of us have conclusive evidence to confirm our core beliefs and there's always an immanent change that our most cherished beliefs could be wrong. Our greatest challenge would be to tolerate the truth no matter what it may ultimately be. With such an open mind, we would be able to overcome any future discovery that would contradict our faith regarding the true nature of life, spirituality and divinity.
Humanity does have the ability to achieve such a social achievement. However, it's solely up to humanity and not any other entity or groups of entities to decide our destinies. Each one of us has a choice to make; either hopelessly engaging into meaningless inter cultural conflicts or combine our scientific and cultural gifts to thrive into an enlightened global civilization that could ultimately expand beyond our solar system. The choice is yours, and the time to make it is now!

It's a great achievement for Islamic leaders and scholars as well as Newsweek and the Washington post to present this imperative opportunity for inter cultural and global philosophical dialogue. What's important is that by exchanging our ideas and comments regarding inter religious relations and world events that affect our views of each other as fellow human beings. Since the advent of humanity, We strove to make sense of the world we live in and the lives we've experienced. Worldwide curiosities to learn the true nature of life and our universe is an exceptionally rare virtue upon life on Earth. In other words, we're the only known species on the planet who've pursued to unravel these great mysteries and developed written philosophies based upon our understanding of the world around us.
One such philosophy that lasted throughout the ages of humanity is commonly known as religion and spirituality. Ever since our early belief in the Sky God and the God Mother from ancient Pagan times, we vigorously pursued to unravel the truth about our most profound questions. As any educated person would know that religion and their core beliefs or faith have evolved over time. Paganism, Monotheism and Polytheism have been influenced by humanity as these great philosophies have influenced our perceptions and decisions in life over the ages. Over time humanity has embraced diverse religious faiths and spiritual convictions that continue to influence our behavior in our times and most likely beyond.
What's vital for humanity's progress and even survival is to know the true nature of faith itself. To understand the true origins of faith. But most of all, is to accept the truth for whatever it may be. Each one of us will learn the absolute truth once we die. But until that time comes for anyone of us to depart this world, we really don't know the answer to God's existence nor do we have the absolute truth in regards to the true nature of God. Besides if we did possess the truth, there would've been only one religion on Earth with no diversification of any way, shape of form. There would only be one holy scripture written throughout human history.
Considering one's religious faith to be absolute, while considering others to be false would be ethnocentric at best. While collectively searching to unravel the mysteries on nature, life and the universe through sincere reasoning and serious research would be enlightening at its worst. Most importantly, we must accept the fact is that none of us have conclusive evidence to confirm our core beliefs and there's always an immanent change that our most cherished beliefs could be wrong. Our greatest challenge would be to tolerate the truth no matter what it may ultimately be. With such an open mind, we would be able to overcome any future discovery that would contradict our faith regarding the true nature of life, spirituality and divinity.
Humanity does have the ability to achieve such a social achievement. However, it's solely up to humanity and not any other entity or groups of entities to decide our destinies. Each one of us has a choice to make; either hopelessly engaging into meaningless inter cultural conflicts or combine our scientific and cultural gifts to thrive into an enlightened global civilization that could ultimately expand beyond our solar system. The choice is yours, and the time to make it is now!

It's a great achievement for Islamic leaders and scholars as well as Newsweek and the Washington post to present this imperative opportunity for inter cultural and global philosophical dialogue. What's important is that by exchanging our ideas and comments regarding inter religious relations and world events that affect our views of each other as fellow human beings. Since the advent of humanity, We strove to make sense of the world we live in and the lives we've experienced. Worldwide curiosities to learn the true nature of life and our universe is an exceptionally rare virtue upon life on Earth. In other words, we're the only known species on the planet who've pursued to unravel these great mysteries and developed written philosophies based upon our understanding of the world around us.
One such philosophy that lasted throughout the ages of humanity is commonly known as religion and spirituality. Ever since our early belief in the Sky God and the God Mother from ancient Pagan times, we vigorously pursued to unravel the truth about our most profound questions. As any educated person would know that religion and their core beliefs or faith have evolved over time. Paganism, Monotheism and Polytheism have been influenced by humanity as these great philosophies have influenced our perceptions and decisions in life over the ages. Over time humanity has embraced diverse religious faiths and spiritual convictions that continue to influence our behavior in our times and most likely beyond.
What's vital for humanity's progress and even survival is to know the true nature of faith itself. To understand the true origins of faith. But most of all, is to accept the truth for whatever it may be. Each one of us will learn the absolute truth once we die. But until that time comes for anyone of us to depart this world, we really don't know the answer to God's existence nor do we have the absolute truth in regards to the true nature of God. Besides if we did possess the truth, there would've been only one religion on Earth with no diversification of any way, shape of form. There would only be one holy scripture written throughout human history.
Considering one's religious faith to be absolute, while considering others to be false would be ethnocentric at best. While collectively searching to unravel the mysteries on nature, life and the universe through sincere reasoning and serious research would be enlightening at its worst. Most importantly, we must accept the fact is that none of us have conclusive evidence to confirm our core beliefs and there's always an immanent change that our most cherished beliefs could be wrong. Our greatest challenge would be to tolerate the truth no matter what it may ultimately be. With such an open mind, we would be able to overcome any future discovery that would contradict our faith regarding the true nature of life, spirituality and divinity.
Humanity does have the ability to achieve such a social achievement. However, it's solely up to humanity and not any other entity or groups of entities to decide our destinies. Each one of us has a choice to make; either hopelessly engaging into meaningless inter cultural conflicts or combine our scientific and cultural gifts to thrive into an enlightened global civilization that could ultimately expand beyond our solar system. The choice is yours, and the time to make it is now!

It's a great achievement for Islamic leaders and scholars as well as Newsweek and the Washington post to present this imperative opportunity for inter cultural and global philosophical dialogue. What's important is that by exchanging our ideas and comments regarding inter religious relations and world events that affect our views of each other as fellow human beings. Since the advent of humanity, We strove to make sense of the world we live in and the lives we've experienced. Worldwide curiosities to learn the true nature of life and our universe is an exceptionally rare virtue upon life on Earth. In other words, we're the only known species on the planet who've pursued to unravel these great mysteries and developed written philosophies based upon our understanding of the world around us.
One such philosophy that lasted throughout the ages of humanity is commonly known as religion and spirituality. Ever since our early belief in the Sky God and the God Mother from ancient Pagan times, we vigorously pursued to unravel the truth about our most profound questions. As any educated person would know that religion and their core beliefs or faith have evolved over time. Paganism, Monotheism and Polytheism have been influenced by humanity as these great philosophies have influenced our perceptions and decisions in life over the ages. Over time humanity has embraced diverse religious faiths and spiritual convictions that continue to influence our behavior in our times and most likely beyond.
What's vital for humanity's progress and even survival is to know the true nature of faith itself. To understand the true origins of faith. But most of all, is to accept the truth for whatever it may be. Each one of us will learn the absolute truth once we die. But until that time comes for anyone of us to depart this world, we really don't know the answer to God's existence nor do we have the absolute truth in regards to the true nature of God. Besides if we did possess the truth, there would've been only one religion on Earth with no diversification of any way, shape of form. There would only be one holy scripture written throughout human history.
Considering one's religious faith to be absolute, while considering others to be false would be ethnocentric at best. While collectively searching to unravel the mysteries on nature, life and the universe through sincere reasoning and serious research would be enlightening at its worst. Most importantly, we must accept the fact is that none of us have conclusive evidence to confirm our core beliefs and there's always an immanent change that our most cherished beliefs could be wrong. Our greatest challenge would be to tolerate the truth no matter what it may ultimately be. With such an open mind, we would be able to overcome any future discovery that would contradict our faith regarding the true nature of life, spirituality and divinity.
Humanity does have the ability to achieve such a social achievement. However, it's solely up to humanity and not any other entity or groups of entities to decide our destinies. Each one of us has a choice to make; either hopelessly engaging into meaningless inter cultural conflicts or combine our scientific and cultural gifts to thrive into an enlightened global civilization that could ultimately expand beyond our solar system. The choice is yours, and the time to make it is now!

It's a great achievement for Islamic leaders and scholars as well as Newsweek and the Washington post to present this imperative opportunity for inter cultural and global philosophical dialogue. What's important is that by exchanging our ideas and comments regarding inter religious relations and world events that affect our views of each other as fellow human beings. Since the advent of humanity, We strove to make sense of the world we live in and the lives we've experienced. Worldwide curiosities to learn the true nature of life and our universe is an exceptionally rare virtue upon life on Earth. In other words, we're the only known species on the planet who've pursued to unravel these great mysteries and developed written philosophies based upon our understanding of the world around us.
One such philosophy that lasted throughout the ages of humanity is commonly known as religion and spirituality. Ever since our early belief in the Sky God and the God Mother from ancient Pagan times, we vigorously pursued to unravel the truth about our most profound questions. As any educated person would know that religion and their core beliefs or faith have evolved over time. Paganism, Monotheism and Polytheism have been influenced by humanity as these great philosophies have influenced our perceptions and decisions in life over the ages. Over time humanity has embraced diverse religious faiths and spiritual convictions that continue to influence our behavior in our times and most likely beyond.
What's vital for humanity's progress and even survival is to know the true nature of faith itself. To understand the true origins of faith. But most of all, is to accept the truth for whatever it may be. Each one of us will learn the absolute truth once we die. But until that time comes for anyone of us to depart this world, we really don't know the answer to God's existence nor do we have the absolute truth in regards to the true nature of God. Besides if we did possess the truth, there would've been only one religion on Earth with no diversification of any way, shape of form. There would only be one holy scripture written throughout human history.
Considering one's religious faith to be absolute, while considering others to be false would be ethnocentric at best. While collectively searching to unravel the mysteries on nature, life and the universe through sincere reasoning and serious research would be enlightening at its worst. Most importantly, we must accept the fact is that none of us have conclusive evidence to confirm our core beliefs and there's always an immanent change that our most cherished beliefs could be wrong. Our greatest challenge would be to tolerate the truth no matter what it may ultimately be. With such an open mind, we would be able to overcome any future discovery that would contradict our faith regarding the true nature of life, spirituality and divinity.
Humanity does have the ability to achieve such a social achievement. However, it's solely up to humanity and not any other entity or groups of entities to decide our destinies. Each one of us has a choice to make; either hopelessly engaging into meaningless inter cultural conflicts or combine our scientific and cultural gifts to thrive into an enlightened global civilization that could ultimately expand beyond our solar system. The choice is yours, and the time to make it is now!

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I see the "Faithful" at the beginning of almost every manmade disaster in history. Christianity has been throught the same phase Islam is going through now - with just as destructive results -- and Christianity will get there again. The cycle will continue until religions can look at their teachings and honestly discount things that can not be demonstrated to be true.

Your child was mangled to death by your dog; the most you could do was to euthanize it. Can anyone explain to me why any God would keep you burn in hell eternally simply because you did not believe in Him? I am not criticizing; I am just an ignorant seeking to hear the truth. I am Catholic and the kind of faithful Mr. Annan is talking about

Once you state a belief based on faith, shouldn't the next words out of your mouth be "but I may be completely wrong." Isn't it the arrogance, the all-too-human insecurity and need for absolute certainty, that propels someone to take a belief on faith and turn it into a weapon? It isn't the faithful, the faith, or the arrogance. It's all three in a lethal combination.

The important point to remember is this: religious views are as much political views as they are spiritual. When secular people like myself critique or even lament religion, it often has very little or nothing to do with the 'truth value' of religion. Rather, it has to do with politics and how the politics of faith affect us. Practitioners of Religion, particularly the Abrahamic religious, wield their faith in a way that is very threatening to secular people. And compromise is extraordinarily difficult when we consider what is at stake. And tolerance? "Tolerance" usually amounts to secular folks keeping their mouths shut, to pagans hiding under rocks, to religious people promising not to kill their neighbors for a week or two.

im so glad to see that people have the guts to come out and call faith for what it is...unrational adherence to belief sets that are self-proving.

how do you argue something that was written 2000 years ago?

and thats the point- you cannot argue with religion.

...maybe thats why they have so much influence...

John, just so you know we're truly on the same page, neither can I think of anytime my "dependency" on drugs has caused me to steal from friends, family, employers, and of course strangers. Nor do I count the time I spend intoxicated to be a waste.

The problem with religion is the same as the problem with drugs: some people can function and even benefit, but many can't.

Like drugs, some religions are particularly toxic in their side effects, and difficult for many people to handle. Islam, Hindu, and Christianty have all been proven to be major menaces to public health, when set loose among certain populations.

As with tobacco, the harm of faith is not purely upon him who partakes. I would go so far as to say that religions have killed manyfold more people than drugs ever have. Religion should not merely be separated from the state; it should be controlled by the state in order to ameliorate the societal ill effects.

As a specific example, I feel there should be very stringent control on religious speech, specifically: anyone who represents god as desiring violence or uneven treatment toward others should go to prison.

Other instances of this approach include emergent restrictions on religious dress in the EU.

The history of religion is the attempt of humans to ascribe to a god(s) that which they cannot explain by the evidence at hand. As humankind and the level of knowledge from observation has advanced, the rigidity of religion has created great social disturbances.

The scribes of the Bible and the Koran lived in the age of a flat earth as the center of the known universe. Had they instead existed in our age of molecular biology, quantum physics and the Hubble Telescope, can anyone imagine that their account of the history of man and the universe, replete with a vindictive and emotional god, would have been so childish? How arrogant of humans to believe that this insignificant pebble of a planet, orbiting a middling star, represents the ultimate expression of the divine.

I find that most concepts of god are sadly lacking in true transcendence.

I have long noticed that the more fervent a person is about their religious beliefs, or their political beliefs for that matter, the more they assume that it is the only "true" belief. While most people in that situation are content to live their lives according to their beliefs without imposing them on those with other beliefs, the problems our world has always had is with those who cannot understand, tolerate, accept or live with the idea that there could possibly be someone who believes otherwise. If they are at all prone to violence, their passionate belief in what was once a good force in their lives, becomes something destructive and even war-like. Moderation, tolerance, dialogue, acceptance of differences are the only hope for a world with so many different passions for so many different beliefs.

In response to wannabe I can't think of any time that my "dependency" on faith has caused me to steal from friends, family, employers and of course strangers. I also have yet to find that an hour or so in church on Sunday has "wasted" my day. It has provided me refuge, given me strength, or just created the opportunity to sit quietly with my family after harried days in the wonderful, old "secular" world.

Truly there are few organized religions that have not stained themselves with blood. Certainly if you sit down and read the Old Testament you will find horrific episodes of man's inhumanity to man. Its focus is the birth, growth and eventual downfall of a nation in a time when conquest and defeat meant death and or slavery. It is truly a testament to a people who struggled with faith (trust in their God) and a God who struggled with his love for his people in spite of their repeated failure to hold onto this trust. It is often not a gentle story. But, there is also plenty to show of the wonder and reward of a sustained faith.

However, for ever zealot who destroys in the name of his God I suggest there are dozens more who provide and protect in the name of that same God. And time and time again it is those dozens that make the world a better place for all, believer, questioner and non-believer.

To all, and especially Mr. Annan:
The one comment that I have seem missing in the above well written and inciteful missives is an attempt to explain the role of fear as the driving motivation behind the activities of "the faithful" that we rail against.
Fear of differentness. Fear of lack of control over their own children (and the potential they may grow up to hold other trues to be self evident). Fear of accepting that the decisions and lives they have led, often subjugated in sacrifice to things they have held true, may not in the end have been made for things that were indeed true, and their lives and sacrifices have been in vain.
Fear springs from ignorance: no one fears that which he understands.
It is fear that leads the faithful to hate. To hate those who are different from themselves. To hate those who would teach their children and their friends that there are other ways in which life may be led, other pursuits which are, in the end, as worthy as the pursuits which they have filled their lives with. To hate those who have freedom that they do not, as they sit denuded that their blind faith, their zealot's myopeia, provides them with salvation that obviates the need for freedom.
There will never be an end to hate, or to fear, so long as humans exist. And so, there will never also be an end to those who use the trappings of religion as guideposts to delimit the extent of their lives, never stepping beyond their boundaries for fear of losing their way.

A person of faith who has faith without logical reason (a.k.a. a robot) has the faith of a child.

When I was a child, I believed as a child. Now that I am an adult, I've put away childish things. An adult should have faith for a reason.

The difficulty seems to be in the effort and discipline required for constantly re-applying logic in varying situations -each time your faith is called into question.

It is wrong to say there is no good in faith systems just because it's difficult and time consuming to reason them.

We all need to make moral and ethical decisions. This takes lots of time and effort with logic. Faith systems provide some short-cuts.

An adult with faith must know when to re-test their short-cuts. If the short-cut makes no sense to them, they must be selective. They have to cut that short-cut out of their faith system, because it doesn't make sense to them. That doesn't prove that particular short-cut is wrong. It just proves that particular short-cut doesn't make sense to them at that particular moment and in that particular application.

This doesn't mean that faith is wrong. It doesn't mean that faith systems are wrong. It just means that people have to be more disciplined.

We each have a brain for a very good reason. We need start using them.

If a child cannot make good decisions, he should not be allowed to make important decisions. We should also treat the child with kindness and help teach him to make better decisions. We should also be certain we have not become the child by accident. We all make mistakes applying logic; making mistakes of logic is very human.

I believe in God because if the universe has always existed, the universe in total would be God.

I believe in Jesus because to me Jesus is essentially the concept of forgiveness of sins. If there is no forgiveness of sin, between people for example, there is no logical reason for me to be kind. If I hurt someone because I was stupid and they can never forgive me, then I might as well go on hurting them because it would do no good to stop hurting them. Kindness requires me to believe in forgiveness. Forgiveness is the root of Jesus.

If I believe in God and forgiveness of sins, I'm essentially a Christian. All the other details have to be worked on: take them, leave them, ponder them. It's the work of a lifetime.

When I go out to start the car in the morning, I don't have faith that it will start. I hope that it will start, and I behave as if it will start. Why? because that outcome is the most observably likely, and that procedure is the most effective one for getting to work (as oppposed to starting off each day with several hours of automotive diagnostics and preventive maintenance).

What I base my day to day life on is not the same thing as "faith." I believe in the car because the car observably works, because I'm in command of the technology - even if only indirectly, through the agency of a service manager, gas station attendants, oil business executives, etc. - and can make it work if necessary.

Faith is what we invoke when things get difficult to understand clearly, and outcomes are not predictable and controllable. It's useful as a last resort whenever rationality can't quite bridge the gap, but some resolution, wholly rational or not, is unavoidable. Faith however is only one way of dealing with these situations, for one can instead rely on heuristics, gut feelings, etc.

Faith can make an otherwise unbearable reality bearable. This is important to remember.

On the other hand, faith is bad for us when we mis-use it as a prop for our denial of unpleasant realities. Combined with denial, faith's action is entirely parallel to that of a habit-forming drug: the addict may behave amorally, and his addiction makes him easy to manipulate.

Narcotics, like faith, are in some sense an abstract good. Like drugs however, faith becomes a problem where it enables an over-arching strategy of denial to be pursued.

We've been willing enough to have a "war" on psychotropic drugs, simply because they have exactly this little problem, that they enable denial, and engender a lot of dangerous behavior. Why shouldn't we now wage a war on faith? With 6B people sharing the same planet, it seems there is remarkably little margin left for either denial or dangerous behavior.

Given that the war on drugs has been such a success, we inevitably arrive at the conclusion that faith should be allowed, but by prescription only - under penalty of years of harsh confinement - and that whenvever faith is used to secure temporary relief from confusion, the subject should be withdrawn as soon as feasible, lest a lifetime of useless dependency result.

Mr Annan uses the standard excuse: "the problem is not the faith, but the faithful". That is the same flawed excuse use by the National Rifle Association: "guns don't kill people, people do". When will the United Nations start realizing that mysticism in all forms is dangerous?

I'm just pleased to see all of the closet atheists coming out. As an atheist, I have only recently astarted to be more outspoken.

Faith is only another word for belief in that which is unsupportable through any objective evidence. For my money, I'll take most native American religions - they seem much more in tune with the world around them and every bit as valid as any other religion.

Identify any religious faith where you would be willing to take a robot and have it operate strictly based on the tenets of that faith -- including all of those inconvenient ones about slaying those who disagree -- and tell me whether it's the faith or the people following it.

Sorry, Kofi, but in order to lead a moral life you cannot be driven by the tenets of any religious faith.

The problem with faith appears to be when the chosen doctrine is to be imposed on others, whether it be in a region or in a society.
The logical justification is that without adherence to "God's will", there is moral relativity. This presents a false choice to the faithful of any belief system.

Unfortunately, people are intensely motivatated by religous themes, more than by advertising, science, or rationality. In fact, humans will sublimate their own experiences in the natural world and with relationships, defy logic and history, to conform to a religious belief system. Often this has to do with belonging to a community of like-minded persons.

Therefore, we should direct our attention to the religious leaders, rather than the faithful, and hold them publicly accountable for the results of their dogmatic teachings. The truth about the motivations of religous leaders is not hard to uncover for what is really is: demagaugery.

For example, in the USA, the conservative Christian (evangelical) political movement appears to disregard every basic moral tenet of Christianity (compassion, frugality, non-violence, sustainability, democracy, reason), in an effort to impose certain so-called moral constraints on society. It is not enough for them to be faithful, but they have a neurotic ambition to impose their views and dogma on the entire culture, lest they must live in a morally degenerate order. In fact, this kind of faith appears solely to comprise the mere appearance of morality.

I believe we are living in a time where mass media have attained such power as to bundle and capture the psychology of entire societies. This appears to me to be a very, very dangerous development that needs to be recognized and better understood. Otherwise we are constructing the tools that future demogauges will use to destroy our civilization.

Kofi Annan referred to the three monotheistic religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. He mentioned the importance of the Golden Rule, as many of the commentators did.

One of the commentators, Gulliver, noted that the foundational texts of these three religions "have exhorted their followers to attack infidels".

The readers of this Web page might find it interesting to consider a newer monotheistic faith, the Bahai Faith. The Bahai Faith, in contrast to encouraging attack on infidels, encourages the underlying unity of all faiths, including variants of the Golden Rule that are present in all these faiths.

As a mathematician, I must base my models and calculations on good science which means that I must have a firm basis from which to build upon. When one examines the basis of all scientific truth, one finds that at it most simplistic level, all of science and mathematical laws and propositions are accepted on faith. For example, try to prove that a “point” exists. Religion also requires the acceptance of some basic truths based on faith.

Both science and religion give a pathway to examine truth and as such may be considered two different sides of the same coin. Both require effort to work and both can be abused by people who practice them. Which leads me to the point which was stated by Mr Annon that in and of its self, religion is not inherently bad but the people who practice them may be so inflexible as to have loss sight of why they are believers in the first place.

Peace

Historically, people of faith have contributed positively to the stability of their various communities. Arrogant and self-serving religious leadership has led to the current environment where it appears, ironically, that religion has become the root of all evil.

Are all priests pedophiles, are all doctors quacks, do all teachers seduce their students? Certainly not. Nor is all religion bad.
Throw the baby out with the bath water and the result will not be tolerable for either the atheist or the believer.

Is it the faithful? Is it faith? There is lots of discussion on the board about it being one or the other. Through out history and still today people have and still use excerpts from the bible and other religius text/teachings to promote a specific view point or espouse their agenda. This doesn't mean that the person is faithful. It doesn't mean that its the faith. Its the individual and the interpretation they choose to make. It is up to society to have a common understanding of what is right and wrong and respect differences. If society gives in to a twisted literal meaning some lunatic wants to make on a part of religious doctorine.. they must take a moment to inspect if its really their faith or a faithful or just a someone pushing their own agenda.

I have faith that elevators will not crash to the first floor when I use them. One day, I might step into an elevator and it will crash to the floor. Still, I don't inspect the cables and conduct tests before I step in to use them. I have faith someone else has done a good job to ensure my safety.

We all have faith in so many things. Everyday we show our faith. Do you try to start your car before checking to make absolutely sure it will start? No? Well, you are a person of great faith.

It is literally impossible to not have faith. Do you sample the air to make sure oxygen is present each and every time before inhaling? What faith you have!

If your faith in something fails you, perhaps your car has stopped cranking up in the morning, now it is time to question your faith! Has God failed you? Has the car failed you? Have you failed yourself by not putting gas in the engine or doing the proper maintenance?

Is faith the root problem, when your car doesn’t start?

Faith IS the problem. Faith is self-serving arrogance. And faith is VERY dangerous. Once you have 'Faith' that you have the answers, you stop looking for answers. In essence, YOU tell THE UNIVERSE what truth is, as defined by your pre-conceived FAITH.
Open your hearts, and especially your minds, and God will TELL YOU what the truth is. And I can guarantee it will be different than what your egotistical-meglomaniacal FAITH tells you.

Having endured the stigma of being an atheist for much of my life (bluntly, I'd say I've been discriminated against), and having been reprimanded by believers with the same rambling, non-sensical, and all-too-often hypocritical arguments for nearly two decades, I am greatly cheered to find so many voices in this forum that are as critical as I am about faith.

Could it be that we are really entering a better, more reasonable world? Or are web posters just more likely to be atheists? ;-)

Good trees produce good fruit; bad trees produce bad fruit.

When trees stand close together in a grove and the fruit has fallen to the ground, who is to say which tree produced which fruit?

If you have no faith in a theory, you might devise experiments to prove or disprove it.

I respect people who are very careful of the judgements they make, have evidence, and can examine a situation from more than one perspective.

Peace be with you.

Sorry to post again so quickly, but on a whim, I looked up the Merriam-Webster definition of faith:

1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs

Charles, having faith isn't necessarily wishful thinking as you suggest. Rather, it is trusting in something that you can't see or prove. It can be really scary some times, but it takes a great deal of strength and courage to believe in something you can't see or prove, especially when there are so many people out there telling you that you are wrong or foolish.

As for Kofi Anan advocating fascist censorship, I don't think that is his point. I, for one, think political correctness is out of control. But we all know that words can hurt. When we say, write, or draw things that we KNOW someone else will find offensive, religious or otherwise, we are not being respectful or considerate of their feelings and beliefs. That does not mean, however, that we cannot challenge each other's beliefs and taboos. What it does mean is that we need to do so in thoughtful, respectful ways because that is how you get people to listen to each other.

Freedom of speach means that you CAN say whatever you want, but it doesn't mean that you SHOULD say whatever you want. There is a BIG difference.

Didn't George Washington and other early Americans fight a bloody war for their belief in democracy? Is that not faith in an idea that brought about conflict? Is fighting for what you believe in always bad? What if you fought a war to free a class of people from slavery? Is your faith in all humans being created equal a bad belief? Blame faith if you will, but everyone believes in something strong enough to fight for it even if they don't have definitive proof that it is true (for example, that democracy is worth dying for).

I am a Christian ("mainstream" Protestant) who attends church nearly every Sunday, teaches Sunday School class, and has participated in church service activities in Romania and in Mississippi (Katrina victims). I'm also politically progressive, especially on social issues, so I am not one of those "right wing conservative Christians" that many secularists tune out. To me, my religious faith is a way to make sense of the world, to serve as a guide when the real world makes things confusing, to help me do the right thing by other people, and to find comfort and peace when life is stressful and difficult. But my religious faith is intensely personal - it is right for me, but that doesn't mean it is right for everyone else. I fully respect the rights of my Jewish, pagan, Catholic, Muslim, atheist, etc. friends to follow whatever belief system works best for them and I hope they do the same thing for me. I wholeheartedly agree with those who say it is some of the so-called "faithful" of various religions who cause religious conflict and not the religions themselves. Because faith is intensely personal, we each interpret it through our own lenses, and even when we read the same passage in the Bible, Torah, or Koran, we don't necessarily interpret it in the same way.

It greatly disturbs me when people of any belief system - Christian, Muslim, Jewish, pagan, atheist, etc - makes sweeping generalizations about another belief system without first learning something about that which they are judging, which it appears that many, regardless of their belief system, are using this discussion forum to do. Perhaps if we all, regardless of our religion or lack thereof, took time to learn about those different from us before we judge, we could at least nicely "agree to disagree" without resorting to violence. Who knows? We might actually find some similarities that are otherwise lost in all of the shouting, vitriol, insults, and name-calling.

It is really easy to blame a particular religion or religion itself for the ills of the world (the posters who noted the economic, greed, fear, and other secular reasons for war & conflict were right - those are the root causes but religion is an easy way to create a "unifying them" as a scapegoat), but religion can do a lot of good too, just like secular organizations. The Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies have religious underpinings and they provide aid to those in need, regardless of religion, and most people, regardless of their religious beliefs, think nothing of it. Other groups, like Catholic Relief Services, Lutheran World Relief, Lutheran Disaster Relief, etc. remain in troubled and damaged areas long after governments and other groups have moved on to other, more "hot" topics.

Religion itself isn't the problem; rather, because it is not something that is cut and dry, it is easy for people with agendas to manipulate for their own ends. Did Hitler really see the Jews as a problem or maybe they were just an easily identifiable "them" that he could use as a rallying cry for all that was wrong in German society because they looked different and believed something many had not taken the time to understand?

Problems with religion usually stem from fear, which often comes from a lack of understanding. Perhaps if we work harder to understand one another, we might fear each other less and be able to work together more, even if we don't always agree, especially since peace is a major tenet of the world's major religions.

Kofi A. Annan refers to "ill-considered words and drawings". Thanks for the reminder, Mr. Annan, we apologize for being a free people with freedom of speech and expression. Could you be more specific as to which form of censorship and fascism you'd like us to implement, so that we avoid offending all the delusional believers in God?

Chad wants to define faith as: "... as warranted knowledge received and held without need for external verification." That's an artfully evasive way of characterizing wishful thinking. "Knowledge" which cannot be validated against some kind of appropriate observable correlate is neither warranted nor knowledge. And notice I choose the word "appropriate", because I can observe lots of books which are asserted to be God's word, and I can observe many people who have faith in God, but neither of those categories of observation are appropriate to validate the existence of God. God showing up, publicly, and doing a few public miracles, in the spirit of the "George Burns" God of the film "Oh God" -- that would be an appropriate observable. Billions of people engaged in wishful thinking is not.

Finally, it is entirely true that reason, reduced to pure syllogistic thinking, and devoid of all empathy, can be as deadly as the worst of religion. But empathy, which is crucial for healthy human societies, does not need to be grounded in religious faith. There are millions of (very observable) empathic atheists to prove that point.

A person's faith and beliefs are a very personal affair. I can no more say that your faith and beliefs is the wrong faith than you can say that my faith and beliefs is the wrong faith. This is why, in our modern day world, we have tried to keep faith (church) and state separate. This has led, in the past, to a tolerance, imperfect as it may be, of the other person's faiths and beliefs.

However, in more recent times, on both sides of the world, western and eastern, there have been people who have tried to bring their faith and beliefs into the other persons' world, and, at the same time, dropped their tolerance towards the other person's faith. We have become intolerant of people who are different than we are, whether because of faith, colour, sex, or beliefs. We have seen this in the condemnations made on both sides of the fence - "infidels", "axis of evil", and other rhetoric that has been served up to the faithful at the expense of those of us who are not of the same "colour" or "shade" in our beliefs.

This intolerance towards one another has resulted in a world that has been brought to a brink that we have not seen since the end of the cold war. We used to condemn the "commies". Now we condemn the "infidel" or others who are not of our faith.

It's time to cool all of this rhetoric and go back to our roots. All faiths have these basic beliefs - Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Love thy neighbour as thyself. In God we trust. And a whole lot of other ethics which, if we follow, will give us the peace, tranquility, and satisfaction that our souls are today clamoring for.

It's time to cool the rhetoric and help our neighbours.

Go read Deuteronomy 13:6 and the following verses. See what this "holy book" actually says. It's incredible that anyone today tries to base any morality on the bible, unless they want to be selective about it. And if you're going to be selective, then why not be very selective?

What is proof? Modern scientific proof is a product of an essentially experimental method for discovering the workings of the material world. The old natural philosophers never intended it for any other use, and their methods at first were greatly disparaged by the existing scholars--but the attempt, as a whole, was not considered unchristian, and, therefore, was not generally suppressed--but it is worth noting that at the time western Christianity, too, had become divided.
Scientific proof is not mathematical proof, which is much more rigorous, nor is it courtroom-legal proof, wherin witness for social reasons is excluded (priviliged communication, and all that, besides the issue of learning things by force or subterfuge).
As for faith, it is not believing things with no proof, no witness, but keeping up belief after being originally convinced of the truth of the matter, never supposing that one has all the truth (one would have to be God for that, whether one believes in God or not).
There is a classic example about having faith in, say, one s good and true spouse, when hearing things that are quite out of character. Here the issue of proof and witness is in all the experience that leads one to know what is and is not in character.

"Faith is believin' what you know aint so".... Mark Twain.

Religion is the scourge of the earth.

A good question is what is religion? Take string theory, it's not testable in any known way. So what does it have going for it? Well that it explains the fact that of all the possible universes, the vast majority of which couldn't support life, we find ourselves in one that does. Imagine being in front of a firing squad of a hundred men and they all miss you. Not impossible, but so incredibly unlikely that you'd want an explanation. And the only thing string theory has going for it over other explanations is that it doesn't invoke a deity or any other anthropomorphic principles. To me that decision is based on an article on an article of faith that cannot itself be justified. Or take neo-Darwinists. Their overarching descriptions of human behavior fall victim to Popper's complaint that they can't be disproven just as surely as did Freud's theory. Again not science, but a faith that's sprung out of science. If you people who are screaming "rationality" and "enlightenment" at the top of your lungs put any stock in those words then you should definitely doubt some of the more radical claims made in the name of science.

Strict adherance to the Koran does not produce radical Islam necessarily. 13th century muslim clerics were strict in their adherance, but were also great scientists and pacifists. It was, by the way, their belief in God that led them to study the universe He created.

Faith isn't believe despite no evidence. It is trusting evidence that you have. You all plan for the future but do not know that you will live to see it. Why? There are reasons to believe in God including the witnesses who saw Him ascend into heaven. Isn't a witness evidence?
Who watches the weather channel? Do you make plans on their predictions? No human being can live without belief. Rational beings have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow without any proof that it will other than "it always has."

Kofi, Kofi, Kofi,
I understand and appreciate your idealistic perspective that the religious can come together and compromise, but a little shot of realism might serve the planet well. The reality is, religions have had centuries to get it right and bring world peace and they've shown time and time again, that they cannot do it. Isn't it time for secular-minded folks to have a swing at it?
History shows that when science explains something previously only answered by religion, the religiously inclined freak out and try to squash it like a primordial cockroach. And if they could stop all rational thought right now, and hurl us into another dark ages they'd do it in a flash of white bright light. The bottom line is, religious ideology has had its centuries-long turn, and now it's time for them to move out of the way and give secular ideology a chance.
You, Kofi, run the risk of denying basic human rights found in the UN's own Declaration of Human Rights if the leaders of nations are allowed to foment religious tenets that suppress, oppress or otherwise discriminate or marginalize another group of people as books such as The Qu'ran/Koran do. The Bible does this also and to allow some of its precepts to supersede man's most moral law, the Declaration of Human Rights is to give power to the wrong people--people who will continue to deprive individuals of their human rights, oppress them and even murder in the name of that faith.
You must stand up to these imams and priests and rabis that would use "holy books" to justify denying individuals of their basic human rights. It's simple Kofi: Kick 'em out! Tell them they have no authority in a rational court.
It seems to me that it is the UN's job to implement the Declaration of Human Rights and make it the overriding principle in which societies should exist--that means, no theocracies that advocate tenets that go against the Declaration of Human Rights.
Well, that's my idealistic notion. Thank-you Mr. Annan for your service to this planet's nations.
Sincerely,
janine

Religious language is often used to express hatreds, fears, angers ,hurts, and is used to justify great violence. It also contains the seeds for the way out. Everyone has faith in something. whe nwe're done hating and exploding, and hurting one another, there is a the silence of having exhausted ourselves. every religion offers language that expresses hope into that silence. It's hard ot hear, and no one gets in the way with more noise than religious people themselves. But it's there.
Peace.

Can any body elaborate this idea?
Cofi's position is as harmfull as faith or religion.
It is the same harm as moderate religious than fondamentalist...

Hint: Sam Harris developped this argument very well.

Dave:

I think we have to understand that asking much of the Muslim world to do so is tantamount to asking them to betray core doctrines of their faith; much like asking much of Europe to do so 600-1000 years ago would get you flayed alive for heresy.

Or like asking much of the U.S. to accept scientific evidence for evolution over creationism is tantamount to tearing out large sections of the Bible.

They won't do it until non-religious needs force them to.

Alex, you have said it all. I have said much the same thing in response to Sam under the thread of discussions started by Mr. Shakir. All these mosques and madrassas are springing up in democratic and pluralistic societies but the Muslim countries such as Saudi Arabia are completly intolerant in hosting any non-Islamic religions within their borders. I do not agree with Sam that we need to go on being tolerant regardless of whether the other side reciprocates. I will agree that this is not morality. But sometimes you need to take certain steps to get across a message. Nobody is talking of mistreating the Muslims. I am just saying enough is enough. It is time that Muslims extend the same religious rights they have come to expect from the rest of us.

I have lived in 2 different societies. One largely secular and one largely religious. I had
no problems in either UNTIL I was comfronted with
the religious society intending to:
1) Judge me within their religious framework
2) Try to impose their religious beliefs on me

To another person I suppose it could have
happend the other way
around: the secular society would have
interfered with their desire to
practice their religion of choice (particularly
if it involved proselatizing, which works
on the assumption that the one proselitizing
knows better, right?).

At the end of the day, if we were to
excercise our will in a way that doesn't
interfere with the ability of others
to excercise their will, we would
have a more peaceful world.

If religions were kept as a personal choice
where if you need it, enjoy it, it helps you,
you go for it and if it doesn't you don't, there
would be more peace in the world.

However, I agree with many previous posts
that religions
don't have monopolies on creating conflict.
Conflicts are the result of large disparities
among people, competition for limited resources
and desire for power. Religions are sometimes the
reasons or justification to keep the disparity,
sometimes they are the reasons or justification
to fight against the disparity, and sometimes
they are neither. It is
undeniable that religion is a powerful tool to movilize large numbers of people so they
always have a role in large conflicts, but it is
how they are used by individuals that really
makes a difference. If individuals didn't
respond so blindly to religious calls, then religions wouldn't be such powerful mobilizing tools in the first place.

I believe (but cannot prove) that
most humans, mothers in particular,
around the world share the same basic needs and desires: ability to work and provide
for their families: food, health care, shelter, education, and protection from violence.
In order for most humans to meet those needs
and achieve those desires,
many of us have to "share" and "give up"
some of what we have. Until we are willing
to give up something we want (but don't really
need) so that others
can have their basic needs met, we'll continue to kill each other and feed the vicious cicle.
Religions will continue to be among the tools
used to fuel and sustain such conflicts.

"I know that there is nothing in the New Testament that advocates any kind of violence against any kind of person."

Unfortunately Jesus himself proves you wrong:

Matthew 10:34-35
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Luke 19:27
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Not every religion explicitly advocates violence this way, of course. But most at least have followers who interpret them that way.

I kind of agree with Thinking Out Loud and with On the River Styx. It is so easy to rush in with an easy answer and blame an idea. Those ideas are so damn dangerous! The fact is that humanity seems to enjoy the fight. Look at our games, our fantasies, our Captain America myths. Superman. We love to believe the world is made up of good guys and bad guys and of course we are the good guys and its all those 'others' as they say on Lost who are the problem.

Some of you clearly have not studied all of these religions. I don't know about Islam, but I do know a lot about Judaism and Christianity. True religion teaches people that the evil is not out there in the 'others', but within each of us. Religion seeks to help us learn how to control it, to dominate the evil, to conquer it with good. Religion is basically just helping people who need help. How can you argue with that? You don't have to follow it.

Is it the faith itself, or the people who follow it? Neither!! Those who do those things are not following it. That is a myth.

Do not mistake the evil behavior for religious behavior. There are millions of religious people out here who do not advocate any form of violence. The terrible human nature behavior we see by 'religious' people is not religious behavior. These people are using religion for their own selfish goals. The evil Popes, the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Civil War, Ireland, too. These events were all about power, land, money, and politics and the emotional need to have control, or the fear that someone else is going to take away one's life, land, family, money, their very world. That fear is what is driving everything today. If you understood human nature this would make sense to you. But because all you know about is reason and science, you don't. You should know this. Faith in God--any god--is the opposite of fear. People of faith don't act out of fear.

I know a thing or two about science. I was a mathematician, the most pure science. But science did not help me deal with my mother's death, or raise my children, or appreciate the wonder in how a plot of dirt can produce a cabbage out of nothing but chemicals. Science has failed to meet humanity's needs on the most elemental level. We need the beauty, the scale, the immensity of God.

One post particularly disturbed me. One of you said that all the religions advocate killing the infidels, the unfaithful. This is absolutely not true. A very subtle untruth, but terribly powerful. I know that there is nothing in the New Testament that advocates any kind of violence against any kind of person. I have read it all many times over. Even just war is not permitted. One should seek to understand before seeking to be understood.

Hmmm.... The problem is not the faith but the faithful...

I'm just simple guy, but it seems to me that it's the faith (rightly or wrongly) that drives the faithful.

If not, what has driven the following?

-Northern Ireland - Catholics Vs Protestants for 400 years,

-The Middle East - The son of Sarah (Jews) and the son of Hagar (Muslim) have been fighting for thousands of years,

-Europe through the middle ages - The Catholics vs the Protestants (study the history of the kings of England),

-The colonization of the US was predominantly done by people leaving Europe so they could practice their religions the way they wanted,

-Romans trying to stamp out the Early Christian church for 300 years until it became convienient for Constantine (wasn't this the man who boiled his mother to death in oil),

- The Inquisition,

- The Spanish conquering the new world and the murder of civilizations (it's absolutely stunning when you think about this one),

Seems like these were all done when the faith motivated the faithful to take action.

If, your position is the leaders of these faiths were/are the problem, that's a different discussion which I can agree with 100%.

In this regard, it seems like a couple of things happened on the way to worshipping a supreme being:
1. Some people (the clergy), decided they could use the holy writings to benefit themselves and assumed control/power over it and have spun it to their own ideas/opinions/wants,
2. People in general decided they wanted to make worship easy on themselves, so they outsourced the thinking about it to the leaders. They think by doing this they avoid responsibility.

I think you can apply these 2 points to every "Faith". It's sad that people have forgotten how to think about faith independently of the scoundrels in control.

Hence, we live in a scary world.

I think the problem in the Western world is we are acting out a modern adaptation of the French Revolution, with the US playing the role of Marie Antoinette and saying "Let them eat cake" regarding the starving peasants. All the while hoping the Palace walls and guards will provide protection. It seems like the Bastile is being stormed.

Act III is just now starting.

R

To the secular intellectuals: Shame on your inability to any kind of basic analysis about the root causes of human conflict. You have allowed yourselves to elevate one variable above all others and totally disregarded everything else. To sum up the majority of these postings; the driving force behind most of the world's ills is dogmatic adherence to a belief in a higher authority and a way of living. What short-sighted drivel.

Human conflict would exist today with or without any organized religion, no matter what the enlightened posters here might think. Conflict has always been based on two or more parties competing over resources, whether they be limited (survival) or plentiful (greed/power). These traits of human nature did not spring forth from the advent of religion, but are part of the Darwinian theory of evolution. Herbert Spencer called this the 'Survival of the fittest', but it really all boils down to what people want or need and what they are willing to do to get it.

Basically, humans are creatures that work within limited social structures like extended family units and tribes. For thousands of years, such small structures insured the welfare of the indivduals within the group (at least until they competed for resources from a superior group). Individuality within the tribe was respected (to a point) but survival outside of the tribe was not likely, so the needs of the tribe were paramount.

As man progressed and developed tools for communications, work, and war, the tribes expanded their reach and individuals began to see the possibilities of expanding their resources through an enlarged tribal network (which eventually led to our modern nations).

A tribe expanded their network through exploitation or conquest of resources that belonged to other tribes. The result was conflict and has been ever since.

One might argue that intellectual leaders within certain tribes turned beliefs that grew within humanity as an extension of the tribal model. Perhaps they used the common thread of belief to create an even greater tribe to achieve their goals. But the conflict existed before the religions of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, or any other organized religion existed. Just because the current conflicts in the world seem to be tied to loose tribal ties based on religion does not make it the only driving force of conflict.

The key to fomenting any conflict is to create an inequity (real or perceived) between 2 or more tribes and then giving them the means to do something about it. The conflict may not end up being physically violent, but there will be results that create a winner and loser. If the loser isn't entirely vanquished, conflict is most likely to arise again.

But of course, the great minds that know that religion is to blame for all of the worlds ills would never be a party to such conflict. They are morally and intellectually too superior to fall prey to the nature of man.

What Faith do each of us depend on? We all have faith in things we cannot prove, particularly when it comes to the core of our understanding of reality and purpose in life. I believe God as expressed in Jesus Christ. Some believe in Allah as communicated by Mohammad. Others believe that there is no god, perhaps believing that all of life can be explained rationally and scientifically, but that is a belief as well.

Despite my belief in God, I frequently find that the decisions I make in day-to-day living display a belief in myself instead. Despite the truth that our world (let alone universe) is way too back and complicated for any person to understand I act like I have it all figured out. Despite the reality that making real moral decisions can involve more complications and conflicts then any one person can see, I can be quick to proclaim moral absolutes in any given situation.

Is at least part of Mr. Annan's theme that for each of us, living out the full reality of our faith is very hard? Isn't it easier to live out our own selfishness, and call it a life of faith leaving the outside observer to condemn the claimed faith?

Analyzing religion is about as simple as analyzing and debating the impact of legal traditions in Western Culture. In fact religion is in many ways a type of legal tradition, as evidenced by the ferocity in which some groups attempt to make their religious precepts synonymous with contemporary legislation.

The ancient Greek playwrights discovered that some societal evils, that might pose a law enforcement problem, could be prevented by enhancing a powerful, vicarious emotional experience which was labeled "catharsis." If not overtly religious (i.e. referencing a divine being) it certainly was spiritual in the sense of going beyond what a mere cerebral understanding of human law could do. Thus religions have found power and credibility in the cathartic formula.

Religions can promote ethical behavior when the law is too complicated to understand, too scarcely distributed or too zealously and selfishly guarded. I think all the major religions served a constructive purpose at their formation--an improvement on what was before in their part of the world--but I think they will eventually diminish as a neceesity. The healing and constructive power of catharsis will eventually give way to science, communcation technology and politics.

It is surprising how one-sided the views there on the role of religion in society are in this discussion. My earlier point about Hitler, Stalin, and Mao, which was sadly misrepresented by the next comment by CJHTAP, was this. (Of course, I would not consider Hitler, Stalin, and Mao scientists but as CJHTAP suggests psychopaths). The materialistic scientific world view did not provide an adequate critique of their "megalomaniac" visions. Particularly in the case of Hitler, a large fraction of world-class scientists were readily conscripted to help him implement his vision. The same thing happens today in Western countries like our own where some of the brightest scientific minds are put to work on building better weaponry which is then used around the world to destroy and foment hatred in its victims.

There have been some recent interesting trends amongst materialistic scientists such as E.O. Wilson to try and appeal to a moral vision to address global environmental concerns. Surprisingly or perhaps not, Wilson realizes the limitations of his world view in drawing people to the fervent response that is necessary to meet these challenges. As such, he has tried to appeal to religious people for assistance. This appeal comes from the fact that people of faith have a very solid basis to care for the earth as a gift from a higher authority. It is this same basis that gave people like Niemoller, Bonhoeffer, Solzhenitsyn, and countless others the courage to speak up boldly to the point of intense suffering and death against the atheistic tyrants of the 20th century.

My favorite thing that Atheists are called is "arrogant". It is supposed to be an argument against them, when in reality it is a resort to name calling. Yes, (at least I am), we are intolerant of religion, that is what it means to be an atheist. "Belief" is not a strong enough argument to convince us. Of course we "believe" things like, "my favorite color is blue" and "I believe Bob Saget will make a comeback". But when your beliefs guide you to blow yourself up, or picket funerals, or waste a sunday at church, then I resent the "belief" argument. By the way Ann, Buddha wasn't talking about faith at all, it was empirical thought that he was espousing!

SCRAPSTER: "I cannot help but think that much of this anger directed at religion is a mix of sincere, righteous indignation and painful personal experiences. I worry though that such a combination can also produce an arrogance, condescension, and close-mindedness among otherwise progressive and well-informed people"

This discussion isn't any more or less arrogant, condescending, or closed-minded than any other online discussion of important issues. Once again, secular people are accused of being "intolerant" simply for voicing their opinions.

Look up any other forum on gun control, gay marriage, or the war in Iraq and you'll get the same kind of strong opinions you find here. The only difference is the "don't criticize religion" taboo.

The Buddha had something to say about faith. He said:

Do not believe just because wise men say so.
Do not believe just because it has always been that way.
Do not believe just because other may believe so.
Examine and experience yourself!

What they say about politics and religion at the dinner table sure seems true here! I cannot help but think that much of this anger directed at religion is a mix of sincere, righteous indignation and painful personal experiences. I worry though that such a combination can also produce an arrogance, condescension, and close-mindedness among otherwise progressive and well-informed people. (Something that has kept us out of political power in the U.S. for quite some time.)

Remove the emotional and political bias and I think that you'll find that religion is just another amoral human creation. Like science and philosophy, it is another mechanism that humans have used throughout the millenia to answer some of the toughest questions of existence and meet physical, emotional, cognitive, moral, and artistic needs. For individuals, we concede that people who need help in these areas can tun to psychology without shame. Why do we then deride those who turn to religion? Its classist hypocracy. Face it, life is difficult, and no single branch of human endeavor (science, philosophy, art, or religion) alone deal with questions of meaning and morality in a satisfactory way.

I also strongly believe that the false dichotomy between religion and science expressed above is counterproductive. Life is too sloppy for the precision of science to be its only guide. If we all waited for definitive empirical evidence to inform our daily decisions and provide a meaningful frame, we'd never leave the house. Let each of these human pursuits do its job, and let us be vigilantly critical of all of them.

I agree with Kofi Annan. It is the so-called faithful who create havoc by wanting to replicate their kind in order to expand their societal influence.

After leaving the UN post,I hope that he will make it his mission to amend Article 18 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights to forbid state-sponsored efforts to spread any religion, either overtly as many Islamic Republics now do through their financial support for madrasahs and building of mosques in other countries, or covertly as our own government has been doing during the last six years through our government's misguided "faith-based" initiatives overseas.

I would also like to see Annan work towards encouraging theocratic states to become secular by amending their respective Constitutions so that they can demonstrate to the rest of the world their tolerance of peoples of other faiths living in their countries.

Both these measures are doable and will indeed receive approvals by the woverwhelming peoples on this planet since they belong to the tolerant and sane dispositions!

I knew that if I read these comments far enough along that I would come across the "megalomaniac/scientist" canard eventually, and there it was in the last post by Jackson. "Hitler, Stalin, and Mao (who were all responsible for the deaths of millions upon millions)" were psychopaths interested in micromanaging everyone's thoughts to match their own and didn't want competition from anything to distract those under them. They were not scientists. They used science and pseudoscience as just more tools, if they were useful, to further their own doctrines or dogma if you will. None of them wanted another supernatural being to compete with.
The constant welding of morality and compassion to religion is getting quite tiresome to me. Its kind of sad that so many people need religion to help them recognize fairness and morality. Observable reality (using our own senses and also technology) is actually much more fascinating by leaps and bounds than badly translated stories that were cut and pasted from even older oral traditions.
There appears to be good deal of collected wisdom to be gleaned from religious texts on how to keep from making mistakes in life that hundreds of generations have made before, but those gems are stirred up with even more outdated and pointless advice that doesn't aid anyone. Wisdom can be found in older and newer places. An effort just needs to be made to search for it and make use of it.

It is disappointing to read so many people blaming religious fervor / faith for the modern tragedies of human behavior. The idea that rationality based on a so-called scientific world view will lead to a more peaceful and productive society is completely refuted by 20th cedntury history. Hitler, Stalin, and Mao (who were all responsible for the deaths of millions upon millions) were men who either tried to eliminate or marginalize religion in their societies. In fact, it can be argued that is was primarily the religous faithful who spoke out against their atrocities.

The scientific approach to understanding is not the only way to truth and history strongly suggests that such a basis for society will not lead to any sort of lasting peace. People of true faith, as represented by many who rose up in Eastern Europe during the fall of Communist regimes, can provide a voice of "reason" that is grounded in a belief that a higher authority holds them accountable for how they live in this world.

the Golden Rule of “do as you would be done by”,this reminds me of a chinese traditional proverb"己所不欲,勿施于人",meaning "never do what you don't want to be done to others" or "never treat others the way you don't want to be treated". if everyone on world could go the way as the proverb hints, then there would be no conflicts at all on our globe. yet, it is so badly that that is impossible.

Elton John - "From my point of view, I would ban religion completely. Organized religion doesn't seem to work. It turns people into really hateful lemmings and it's not really compassionate."

Wasn't it Ghandi who said if all mankind practiced what was written in Matthew 5 and 6, the problems of the world would disappear or something to that effect?

"He (Ghandi) spent hours studying the Bible and the life of Christ. He particularly liked the philosophy Christ expounded in his Sermon on the Mount. He had many Christian friends. When they asked him why he didn't become a Christian since he admired the Sermon on the Mount so much, he answered, "When you can convince me that Christians live by it, I will be the first to become a Christian.""

It is so great to see the "non-believers" out. It gives one hope for a reasonable, rational future in which the stone-age vestige of "belief-as-truth" is eliminated. I think that Mr. Annan has to cater to the "believers" or he will be a target for assassination, this in itself is an argument against religion. Please keep up the posts, it's good to hear you people out there...

Mr. Annan, the problem is exactly what you deny that it is - the faith; plus the faithful, their texts, their religious fervor etc. I have to strongly disagree with you, Sir.

Religion is what it is, not what some book might portend it to be. Christianity is not the Gospel; it is what its practioners make it, and it's excesses and intollerances are not excusable by adherents asserting, "Oh, but that is not Christianity. That is not what the Gosepls say, etc. etc." Christianity is what Christians do in the name of Christianity, no matter how twisted that might be. And, Islam is what Muslims do in the name of Islam, including flying planes into buildings. And, Judaism is what Jews make it, including leaving cluster bombs in the millions to maim children for years to come. Religionists cannot have it both ways. They cannot behave like mongrels while pretending that perfection is simply a matter of adherence to the basic tenets. It is as it is lived, and, generally, that makes religion an unqualified evil.

"...what if faith were defined as warranted knowledge received and held without need for external verification?"

I would submit that there is no such thing as "warranted knowledge" that is "held without need for external verification." Knowledge that has nothing to do with external reality is not really knowledge; it's fantasy.

I also find it preposterous that Annan could lump "The terror attacks of 9/11, war and turmoil in the Middle East, [and] ill-considered words and drawings" into the same group, as though 9/11 were properly akin to the publication of mildly critical political cartoons. Especially since he makes no mention of the barbarous mayhem that the hair-trigger crybabies perpetrated in response to them.

There can be no dialogue when those involved do not agree on what the conversation is about. Islam, in it's most overwhelming demonstrations, has shown a resilient adherence to the book in it's most rigid form. It is therefore no surprise that non-Muslims all over the world see very little moderate Islam, and very much non-moderate Islam. Non-moderate Islam seemingly rules. Observe the sympathy on the Muslim street at large for tyrants, terrorists, and those who will loot, destroy and set things alight, in spiteful resentment of faiths they oppose (do Christians kill infidels or apostates?) cultures they don't understand - such as the freedom that allows controversial and distasteful cartoons. Moderate Islam is powerless. Where do terrorists hide? Within Muslim communities. Why do they hide there? Because they will be aided and abetted. Why is that so? Because Muslims are not courageous enough as a community to shun religious (or religion inspired) violence. Most Muslims still live in the darkness of religious tyranny caves. Whilst Christians dealt with the Inquisition and the like in the Middle Ages, and while most Christians militantly oppose extremism within their ranks, Islam is yet to attain a modest level of mass enlightment. While Christians bring to the table their book and two thousand years of acquired culture, Islam brings just the book. Herein lies the problem.

I strongly believe that there is a common ground, or common thread, that ties people of different religious beliefs together. I agree with Mr. Annan when he refers to the “golden rule” – each human being on this planet deserves a basic level of human respect. For some, offering respect can be difficult; as long as people thrive in different climates all over the world, there will be differences in faith. An evangelical Christian in the United States might have difficulty finding anything in common with a faithful Muslim who lives in a desert several thousand miles away. However, I believe that there are currently millions, perhaps billions, of people on this planet who do understand the basic human respect that must accompany any relationship. The burden lies with those who do understand the common thread to share their knowledge and lead by example. It is individual decisions and actions that will create the foundations for the enlightened faiths of the future.

In response to KATHIE. Yes, it is the PEOPLE who spread the message, but where did the message come from in the 1st place? Read the "holy" books and you will find it all there. The PEOPLE who are spreading the message are living true to their faith and know their "holy" book. Osama bin Laden IS living the word of the Koran more faithfully than any of one of the so called "moderate" muslims you will find out there.

We can all have morals without having a book to base it on. We do not have to live according to the norms of society as it was 1300, 2000 or 5000 years ago.

The Problem Is Faith

I respectfully disagree with the conclusion of Kofi A. Annan’s posting, but I agree with his assessment of the timeliness and importance of your website. While the meaning of various religious texts may be argued, certainly violence by the faithful is based on faith rather than on reason. That is precisely the problem. But for religion, there would be no religious extremism. While people are entitled to respect, supernatural religions are entitled to none.

The Bible and other religious writings should be brought in line with our time and level of knowledge. To insist on the truth and infallibility of human thought and ideas from a much earlier time is ludicrous. I believe it was Thomas Jefferson who edited the Bible to his own liking, casting off what was outmoded or counterproductive to his historical timeframe.

Until we reach the level of wisdom and maturity to truly scrutinize religious belief and "faith" the problems will continue.

I would agree that it is the "people of faith" that cause the problems, not the faith itself. None-the-less, the Bible and other such writings are the tools that they use to justify the continued intolerance and bigotry, not to mention warfare.

I have time for one more post that might offer food for thought as we continue to stir this cauldron.

Faith in what cannot be proven to exist permiates our western societies. From the Easter Bunny, to Santa Clause, to Leprichans(sp)
to Angels, Tooth fairies to God. I could go on and on. Truly it cannot be denied that we enjoy and celebrate the unseen and unproven that takes on meaningful aspects of our daily and yearly existence. Why God has been singled out when just as much homage is about to be payed to old Saint Nick, as we go through our holiday celebrations, I don't know. I won't try to prove to you that there is a real Santa with his sleigh and reindeer, (Ruldolph the red nosed being the favorite). But I will use all of the above to prove that humans find the celebration of what cannot be proven but is believed to have value all the same, to be very stimulating and powerful. Further as I stated in an earlier post, this very powerful psychic experience is one that science relies on and will forever rely on as it continues to define, through theories unproven (faith without fact) that turn into theories proven (Faith with fact), our human world. The common ground is the fact that to evolve from a world where religious beliefs turned to scientific beliefs you do not want to get rid of the religious beliefs as precurser to science. It's like destroying the wheel because we no longer us it with horses. There is no need at all to do this just becuase the car is our new favored form of travel, and cars still use wheels to take us places.

Much invective already. Tedrad, what if faith were defined as warranted knowledge received and held without need for external verification? So defined, increased knowledge about others in the world may challenge whether one's current knowledge is warranted or not. Faith then may change and need not be "stubborn dogmatism," though it would likely be slow to change.

It is mere chest-thumping to equate the methods of science with reason, hold this as the only measuring stick for true dialog, and then exclude those who do not subscribe.

I hope that we have the patience and goodwill to undertake this conversation in earnest. Many thanks, Mr. Annan.

Bravo Samantha and Gulliver for speaking truth to "statesmanship." Faith is belief without evidence or even when there is evidence to the contrary. Faith is stubborn dogmatism. It is the opposite of reason and the methods of science. Only when faith is abandoned, or at least set aside, can there be rational dialog.

"The problem" with faith is not the faith in itself, nor is it the religions nor the documents that each one follows; it is, as Mr. Annan explained, the people involved. After all, each faith-based religion relies on PEOPLE to translate the message, it relies on PEOPLE to spread that chosen message and it relies on PEOPLE to live through example, that message. In essence, it is unclear why people choose to attack religions themselves and not the people who are preaching the various messages. Is it just easier to blame a faceless organization than it is to attack an individual?

In fact, Mr Annan, the three foundational documents are a large part of the problem; all of them describe jealous and vicious gods who have exhorted their followers to attack infidels. None of them is a sound moral base, and every society that hosts them has had to evolve modern softened versions which treat nastier passages as metaphorical or best forgotten; except that fundamentalists of all three try to drag their scientifically illiterate and sect-blinkered huddled masses back to their tribal religions.

If religion didnt do such intense brainwashing then people wouldn't be so chaotic and abusive. Blame it on the people as much as you want but it IS the drug of relgion that infects all its believers. If my parents did the religion brainwashing with me telling me that white people are scum bags and never to trust them.....I WOULD be a racist right now. It IS the teachings, it IS the "holy" book, it IS the sick rituals that keep those losers deceived. Why? because religion attacks when you are young and keeps you hooked. Parents should be arrested for teaching religion to a child just as parents should be arresting for forcing crack onto their children since birth.