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To Canyon Shearer: You wrote, "It really doesn’t matter what you believe. What matters is whether or not what you believe is true." And I would like to add that I have met God, the Trinity, and He is not the hate-filled piece of garbage that you think that He is. God is Love, Pure Love, and one day you will know what christianity really is, which is part of God's Plan for All of His children, humanity, to be in His Kingdom. God will not fit into any of the boxes that so many people have constructed for Him over the ages, THANK GOD. Take care, see you in the Kingdom, don't underestimate God. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

E-Fave
There are complicated explanations, but I'll keep it simple:
I'm a Christian because I believe in the Resurrection and the Trinity and all that jazz. I'm a Humanist because I see divinity in the faces of other people (and in the earth and stars and all that is created, but I wouldn't call that part humanist). It isn't something I invented, but I use the designation deliberately in this setting because so many humanists -- and even more Christians -- seem to assume that the two are mutually exclusive.
Sad to say, I've observed and experienced much more Christlike behavior from so-called secular humanists than from many nominal Christians, particularly those of a millenialist or dominionist stripe.

CaynonShearer -- if I don't make it out alive on Judgment Day, tell Kirk Cameron he was great on Growing Pains.

Remember,

It really doesn’t matter what you believe.

What matters is whether or not what you believe is true.

David, that is a beautifully complicated world-view you have imagined. If it were true, you might be saved from pain on judgment day, but unfortunately it doesn't mesh with science, logic, or history.

David Lipsitt:

"We need to understand that we are so impressionable as children, that it is nearly impossible, when we reach adulthood, to shake off (or even recognize!) our childhood reality distortions."

--

Hell is like a gun held to the heads of children. By the time they mentally mature enough to recognize what has happened the gun has become a permanent fixture. Then it's too late.

That's child abuse by any standard. Prohibiting "snake dancers" from involving children in an obviously life threatening "religious practice" was fought tooth and nail in the courts. It will take a rash of adults suing ministries over threats of hell the way sex abuse has been done to stop or at least tone it down. No sect is more guilty than Roman Catholics, the Grandaddy of "faiths" (in the gun to head of children known as the fires of hell).

Is the first amendment a shield against all but the most obvious child abuses?

Greg, you eloquently mentioned a fact of our "biological programming" that I wish more people would understand and accept.

To reframe it slightly, our capacity for symbolic thought enables the greatness of our imaginations, to which we may be quite vulnerable.

We are wired to think symbolically. Even as infants, we learn to "imagine" the parent who has just left the room, and in so doing, understand that the parent still exists, and has not abandoned us or vaporized into thin air.

This is *adaptive* symbolic thought, as is learning to speak (i.e., figuring out that words stand for things), or concocting an imaginary friend as an emotional outlet.

Sometimes our symbolic thinking works against us, such as with the child who fears a monster in his closet. There are way too many adults, some of whom are responsible for the comments preceding mine, who are also afraid of monsters of various kinds.

We need to understand that we are so impressionable as children, that it is nearly impossible, when we reach adulthood, to shake off (or even recognize!) our childhood reality distortions.

The only good thing that comes out of convincing psychologically vulnerable children that there are supernatural answers to natural problems is that these children grow up to post the most entertaining inane comments on the Internet.

All the best,
David

Russell Holloway:

Gods have a solid foundation in bad science. But how bad is it?

It has to do with motion. Only living things can move. But we see things that we are sure are dead moving. How can they possibly move? But of course, there's a living bodiless being within. And, that's what living things are too, people being statues with a bodiless being installed, spirit, ghost, soul, and other equally intelligent guesses I can't think of momentarily.

The branches of the tree moves. Only the most insensitive do not feel the wind god making them move. But there's a chance the "living" tree is waving it's arms. See, nothing is ever simple. There's faith in god and then there's those atheists with their scientific theories.

"The wind has no body" is the foundation of all spirit gods/Gods. Since they can't be seen they have managed to survive and flourish.

Seems to me those bodiless beings have become official, conservative, the way things used to be in the good old days. No government has the nerve to tax their representatives or their real estate either. Eventually they, through their representatives will own all the real estate, and get it real cheap too if foreclosures continue at the present rate. Let us prey.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam are forms of socially sanctioned lunacy, their fundamental tenets and rituals irrational, archaic and more importantly when it comes to matters of humanity’s long-term survival, mutually incompatible. There are names for people who have beliefs for which there is no rational justification. When their beliefs are extremely common, we call them ‘religious’; otherwise, they are likely to be called ‘mad,’ ‘psychotic’ or ‘delusional.’ ‘’ To cite but one example: ‘’Jesus Christ—who, as it turns out, was born of a virgin, cheated death and rose bodily into the heavens—can now be eaten in the form of a cracker. A few Latin words spoken over your favorite Burgundy, and you can drink his blood as well. Is there any doubt that a lone subscriber to these beliefs would be considered mad?’’ The danger of religious faith is that it allows otherwise normal human beings to reap the fruits of madness and consider them holy.’’

Criticizing a person’s faith is currently taboo in every corner of our culture. On this subject, liberals and conservatives have reached a rare consensus: religious beliefs are simply beyond the scope of rational discourse. Criticizing a person’s ideas about God and the afterlife is thought to be impolitic in a way that criticizing his ideas about physics or history is not.’’

A zippered-lip policy would be fine, a pleasant display of the neighborly tolerance that we consider part of an advanced democracy, if not for the mortal perils inherent in strong religious faith. The terrorists who flew jet planes into the World Trade Center believed in the holiness of their cause. The Christian apocalypticists who are willing to risk a nuclear conflagration in the Middle East for the sake of expediting the second coming of Christ believe in the holiness of their cause. Such fundamentalists are not misinterpreting their religious texts or ideals. They are not defaming or distorting their faith. To the contrary, they are taking their religion seriously, attending to the holy texts on which their faith is built. Unhappily for international community, the Good Books that undergird the world’s major religions are extraordinary anthologies of violence and vengeance, celestial decrees that infidels must die.

In the 21st century when swords have been beaten into megaton bombs, the persistence of ancient, blood-washed theisms that emphasize their singular righteousness and their superiority over competing faiths poses a genuine threat to the future of humanity, if not the biosphere: ‘’We can no longer ignore the fact that billions of our neighbors believe in the metaphysics of martyrdom, or in the literal truth of the book of Revelation,’’ he writes, ‘’because our neighbors are now armed with chemical, biological and nuclear weapons.’’

I have a particular ire for religious moderates, those who ‘’have taken the apparent high road of pluralism, asserting the equal validity of all faiths’’ and who ‘’imagine that the path to peace will be paved once each of us has learned to respect the unjustified beliefs of others.’’ Religious moderates are the ones who thwart all efforts to criticize religious literalism. By preaching tolerance, they become intolerant of any rational discussion of religion and ‘’betray faith and reason equally.’’

The human need for a mystical dimension to life like mysticism and other forms of knowledge, can be approached rationally and explored with the tools of modern neuroscience, without recourse to superstition and credulity.

At this time Islam is the reigning threat to humankind. Much like a gruesome, Inquisition-style Christianity of the 13th century only leads us to believe not all cultures are at the same stage of moral development,’’ I couldn’t help but think of Ann Coulter’s morally developed suggestion that we invade Muslim countries, kill their leaders and convert their citizens to Christianity.

I will say this of Faith: it has been the foundation of every religion, every cult, every sect, every religious terrorist organization that desired to gain advocates whose will greatly exceeded their intelligence. When a religion asks that its followers believe all that it declares, and to do so without evidence, it speaks volumes of the intent and meaning of that religion. These churches, temples and mosques, they will keep their followers in the shadows of millennium past. Evolution is still howled as the great enemy of faith. It simply has the greatest following of scientists and evidence. It's not scientifically that any religion has ever tried to debunk Evolution. They brought forth no evidence. They claimed no new discoveries. Their only tactic was to point to tattered and very old scriptues -- to flip through the pages, and read the rancid words, almost as if they were pure gold. Faith does not require investigation, or evidence, or demonstration, or observation, or logical deductions. It simply requires that a person believe, in spite of what evidence may say: it requires that a person blindfolds themselves when demonstration is shown, to use earplugs when anyone speaks of logic, and to turn away at every reason for them to believe what Faith tells them is wrong. Those cults and sects which have utilized violence for the realization of their apocalyptic future -- they required nothing but the willpower and a great deal of Faith.

When Voltaire said if there was no god we would invent one,he was,of course,saying that's what we do.We invent gods;always have and maybe always will.

Looking at all the Greek gods,the Roman gods,and all other gods who our ancestors have invented,it should be obvious that this is what we do,from fear and ignorance,and because we have the very best instrument with which to do this;the human brain,
the imagination.
All superstitions,gods and goddesses and demons and devils,and heavens and hells,exist in our heads.
Nowhere else. We have to face up to that truth,and stop behaving like children.

I believe in death after life.
Its the only thing we know 4sure.
Death after life for all creatures.
There is no avoiding it,no matter what you believe.
Everything alive will die.
And stay dead.And that includes you.
Everything else is wishful thinking,
which is what we do.
Religion was invented as a response to our horror
of death.
The more scared you are,the tighter you cling to the pipedream.

Terra, Lepi and Wiccan - Merry Meet to all of you too. I was hoping I'd see you gathered somewhere soon, because I have a question for you.

Would you say you believe in supernatural Gods?

and/or - If someone asked "Do you believe in God(s)?" - how would you answer?

Viejita - I have a question for you too - How do you describe "Christian Humanism" and how is it different from Epstein's humanism?

"They say that to explain a universe of unfathomable complexity requires a creator of unfathomable complexity; that "something can't come from nothing" implies a god that came from nothing; that to explain moral claims which cannot be quantified we must accept an unquantifiable lawgiver; indeed, they say that to understand what might be impossible to understand, we must believe in something impossible to understand. But, isn't that ...impossible?" - Nick A.

Your understanding of life before death is not entirely different from the Christian perspective. We as individuals were apart of God's plan from the creation of our universe. In the beginning of time, before time, we were with the Trinity in spirit.

Correction: The above should read ...of course there is a spirit OF the sum total...

Notice that people do have spirits, the information defining the human body to the finest particle level. Souls are a different question altogether. You don't suppose those ancient Egyptian Pharaohs lied about that? Why not say it was the priests doing the lying? Because Pharaoh was officially the son of God while priests are God's servant administrators.

John Griffith (Bright):, CANYON SHEARER:

Souls are records of one's sins. You're both correct in a manner. Satan, God's right hand angel who administers the "judgment of soul" by accusing the judged of specific violations of Pharaoh's, (God's) law, watches the "lie detector" and records the reading on the soul, a clay tablet using a scribe, (Satan is a scribe too).

Pictures of Satan and souls are viewable at http://www.hoax-buster.org

John, souls exist in Canyon's imagination that's a little warped. Canyon has been misinformed. That's worse than ignorant, the accepting of false knowledge as true knowledge.

Canyon, souls are clay tablets and not spirits. Spirits are pure information. Information cannot exist without a body. Therefore there are no pure, without physical and corruptible body spirits. Spirits neither live or exist as what you have in mind, commonly known as ghosts.

All physical things, rocks even have spirits. Souls begin as soft rocks. Spirits are the sum total of all the information needed to identically reproduce and of course there is a spirit to the sum total itself, it as a set being information, possessing the ability to deliver a message. The notion of pure information is the product of ignorance.

CANYON SHEARER WROTE

"The soul is an entity which most, even 'atheists', would say exists."

@ CANYON

I, an atheist, say that a soul exists no more than any God exists.

A poster says:
"While God looks at you now and sees a despicable, sin soaked, enemy, He has offered forgiveness through His Son."

How sad. You start with self-hatred, assuming that your God looks on you as a despicable, sin-soaked enemy.

Such religion is for alienated people. Unable to confront the reality of their self-alienation, they project onto something outside themselves the cause for their inability to be at peace with what they are.

Perceiving self as an enemy of the universe is a sick condition. A sane human being does not cut off a part of his being like Vincent Van Gogh slicing off an ear. He seeks to know and accept himself, as the Greeks said: *Gnothe Seatoun*, not to hate self.

You are a part of the universe, as much as the flowers and the stars. Van Gogh's ear was a part of himself. The universe isn't trashing you.

You're a single, whole entity, not divided into body and soul. You're part of the whole, undivided universe.

How unwholesome to teach and believe that you're lost unless you accept the premise of alienation of self from the universe. In its Christian manifestation, this toxic doctrine takes the form of original sin.

Christianity had its chance and blew it. Pelagius taught that - as the Humanists say today - we humans are responsible for what we are and for what we shall become. He repudiated original sin.

But St. Jerome saw that the Pelagian doctrine of human self-responsibility was spreading fast in the Roman Legions. If people learned that life is a do-it-yourself job the power of the church over them would be weakened. So Pelagianism had to be stopped. Jerome went to St. Augustine and convinced him. Soon Pelagius was officially condemned. It still is.

The idea that human beings can improve their lot by their own effort was declared a heresy. The church made original sin its orthodox stance. So you are taught to accept that you are God's "despicable, sin-soaked enemy." You need "salvation."

Yet no child is born alienated. Original sin and your inherent neediness as a lost sinner has to be carefully taught to you. Max Stirner's "The Ego and Its Own" explains how.

I respect the attitude of Ralph Waldo Emerson. On his death bed, he was asked: "Have you made your peace with God?" He replied: "God and I have never quarreled."

Those who wait for life after death will most likely be disappointed? Can't argue with that. One who cannot live now is not likely to change, learn how to live after they're dead. Of course there is the old Nazi expression, "we'll kill them and that will teach them a lesson they won't soon forget."

You don't suppose there's a connection between theories of "life after death" and Nazi object lessons? We can only wonder what Hitler would have done differently if anything had he theorized that all go on to a next life that is not all that different when compared to this life. If we speculate that all those Jews went on to a new world and Hitler joined them a little later... That's the big oops.

Both Jesus and Crazy Horse worried about things like that. Both said that the new body with the old spirit installed therein done in route to the next world would be a duplicate of the one left behind here in this world. Crazy Horse had the bodies of the 7th Calvary hacked with the thought that he would again need to fight them in the next world. That's what he, Crazy Horse said and Sitting Bull nodded agreement.

Maybe something like, "No one left behind" would civilize us a little, at least make those who require death to be final like Hitler hesitate. Could man made disasters be the product of faulty academics, erroneous theories memorized and parroted? Are sacred scriptures really the work of the pious or could they be the product of the criminal mind? Beware of third party forgivers I always say. Will they be there when one needs them really bad, like say Hitler?

Thank you for explicating a purpose in life and for the human race without resorting to a higher power. If atheists are to be respected and possibly even understood, we need to be able to explain our passions for love and life and humans clearly. Very good article, and one of the better ones in the On Faith series.

I do not think it matters much wether what you believe is true to others..it matters that what you believe helps you to live in a more fulfilled way.

My belief is true for me...

Wiccan,Merry Meet back to you! I have a feeling that we all will have a surprise when our spirits dance out of this plane...will we be crossing the River of Descent? or will there be a Pearly Gate? Will we see angels with harps or cats and dogs chaseing butterflies and laying out in the sun? I prefer the cats and dogs...

LOL...I am curious but in no hurry to find out the ultimate truth yet.

Lepi, Yes...it's kind of like Feed the people and let the gods take care of what the gods need to. There needs to be a healthy body and mind before you can worry about the spirit.

terra

Canyon:

I see Jesus' instruction to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc. as menat to be taken quite literally.

I don't offer a hungry man food or a thirsty man a drink because I perceive his soul as being emptier than his belly and drier than his mouth. I offer him food and drink because he is hungry and thirsty and I have food and drink.

I don't offer a cold person my jacket because I see them as lacking righteousness. I offer a cold erson my jacket because she is cold and I have a jacket.

I didn't take in my daughter's friend recently because she was alienated from the Divine. I took her in because she no longer felt safe at home.

I could go on, but I think you get the picture. While channel surfing recently, I heard a televangelist saying that people shouldn't give money to secualr relief organizations, because all they would do is provide people with physical needs, and they needed God more than they needed clothes and shoes and food, because if you gave them clothes and shoes and food without telling them about Jesus, then you were just sending them to hell with a nice outfit and a full stomach.

I must disagree. It's enough to give people what they physically need just becuse they physically need it.

Your response, Canyon, is where you and I agree.

Mrry Meet, Terra!

I just got this picture of Canyon arriving in the Summerland, sounding like an Evinrude outboard: "But, but, but...".

I agree with Rumi; whatever we find, it sure will not be like we imagined.

It really doesn’t matter what you believe.

What matters is whether or not what you believe is true.

Sin-eliminating cookies..
LOL..Make mine Devils Food... ; ) Rather that then being bored to "death?" by Ted Haggard screaming I am not Gay!

I choose to believe in the Wiccan Summerland...a place of renewal and makeing the decision of what else the spirit needs to know in the next life. Where you a bigot against gay folks...you might return as a gay man, if you were a bigot against blacks, then you might return as a gay black man. Karma can have a sence of humor or at least irony.

When you are ready you return to a new life and a new set of lessons. When you have reached a state of grace, you join the godhood/One.

I see this way of belief to be one that promotes each action we take as meaningful.Each action a lesson. There is not so much a belief in a reward at the end of this life, but each day is a reward for the way we see the sacred in all life. Doing right is it's own reward.
terra

Luke,

Sin-eliminating cookies! What a fantastic idea! Beats the hell out of those sin-eliminating wafers or bits of pita bread I used to dunk in wine.

Can't imagine the fire pit God has going on in Hell, but I imagine that most decent people will be burning in it. Too bad, why would I want to go to a place where Ted Haggard, Pat Robertson, Sean Hannity, and Ann Coulter are considered "worthy" to enter? God sure makes Hell sound so much more alluring. I certainly think it's nonsense to say that our conscience pays testament to the existence of a soul. That would make the Mayans, many Native American tribes, and many other tribes and cultures "soulless" people. I suppose God's word doesn't apply to them (or only when it is convenient). If God sees me as a despicable, sin-soaked enemy (you certainly took that one as far as you coud), then he doesn't love me. Either that, or God has serious bipolar issues. God doesn't have a good track record with me (and many others, including a large number of Christians), so why would I want to be in his family? Also, what is the correlation with the lamentations of Christ in cleansing the sins of mankind? That doesn't make sense. He could have sent sin-eliminating cookies to do the same job. It is EASY for you to believe, Canyon, just as it is easy for you to wish my eternal damnation with your "eternal-stamped" (and hate-filled) heart. Face it, if you believe that God is right in all his ways, then you believe it is right for people to suffer in torment. Yet you wonder why I am terrified of the thought of having Christians in power? If I don't make to heaven, at least I will enjoy the company better than they crappy PR he has here on Earth.

I guess this time it is I who take the gospels literally. No apologies here.

Reposted from a different thread:

I have had the blessing of becoming a Christian outside of a church setting, and thus my hermeneutics are slightly different than many. I do not see a place in the Bible in which we are commanded to give service for services sake, but rather that the whole Bible points to seeking and saving the lost.

Take for example when Jesus welcomes the righteous into Heaven, He says, "For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me." I don't see these saints being praised for addressing felt needs, but each of these things Jesus said are powerful spiritual statements.

Hunger – Manna from Heaven; the Bread of Life (Deut 8:3, John 6:51)
Thirst – Living Water (John 7:37)
Strangers – Alienated from Christ (Ephesians 2:12)
Naked – Clothed with Righteousness (Job 29:14)
Sick – Dead in Sin (Ephesians 2:1)
In Prison – Captives of the Devil (1 Tim3:7, 2 Tim 2:26)

The fact that Christ claims to be all these things means that each of these was saved, and had the Holy Spirit indwelling within them (Romans 8:9), because God cannot dwell with evil (Psalm 5:4).

For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, and yet lose his soul?

As a Christian Humanist, I believe in the afterlife but I don't use that belief as an excuse to disregard what happens in this world. How is it that we demonstrate service to Christ? By judging others, or by serving them in His name?
"I was hungry and you gave me food, I was weary and you gave me rest..." or something like that.

Abraham Lincoln said, "Surely God would not have created such a being as man, with an ability to grasp the infinite, to exist only for a day! No, no, man was made for immortality."

If, during Abraham Lincoln's presidency, I had told you that an unseen medium could be propagated through the air, invisible to eye, quiet to the ears, odorless to the olfactory, and in all ways imperceptible except through a specialized receiver, you wouldn't believe in this medium.

Yet today, this message has been propagated in such a way, millions of radio stations transmit all around you, thousands of television stations are available if you have a receiver box.

One-hundred-fifty years ago this was the supernatural, it was unknown and unbelievable.

So to say there are definitely no other mediums we are incapable of receiving is ignorance at its height. To say that our bodies naturally selected the ability to only pick up 1% of 1% of 1% of these energy spectrums is intelligence at the lowest.

The human body was created with a purpose, the ability to see light, hear sound, and smell particulates, and a brain to realize that Creation is so much bigger than ourselves, that just when we think we are smart or have a grasp of something, God opens up the world so we realize we are infinitely far from knowing anything about the infinite.

The soul is an entity which most, even 'atheists', would say exists. We cannot see it, smell it, touch it, or study it. Yet our conscience bears witness to its existence. God has placed eternity on the hearts of men. We know there is existence after this death, and deep down we know that between here and then is a gate we must path through, a gate which leads to judgment.

There has been a misunderstanding in the Evangelical world to say that Jesus Christ is the only way to God. Jesus is NOT the only way to God; any belief system will get you to God.

It is appointed once for a man to die, and then comes the judgment. Consider how you will look before an infinitely holy God. He will judge you on the intents as well as your actions. He sees lust as adultery, hatred as murder, lying lips are an abomination, and all of these will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and He has every right to judge the world in righteousness. The righteous will go on to eternal life, the lacking will go on to eternal death in the fires of Hell.

But here is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us, He sent His Son to be the propitiation for ours. While we were yet sinners Christ died for us, He was the only perfect man ever to live, He was tempted but He didn't sin, and He willingly gave Himself up in our stead on the cross at Calvary. In His atoning sacrifice, we can be cleansed of our sins in the sight of God. Christ's righteousness can be attributed to your sake. While God looks at you now and sees a despicable, sin soaked, enemy, He has offered forgiveness through His Son.

To receive this gift, repent of your sins and place your full trust in Christ to save you from the wrath to come. If you do this, you will be born into the family of God.

Your current religion will bring you to God someday, on that day, will you face Him as your Saviour, or as your Judge?