Need Plus Greed

"So put down your rosaries and prayer beads and stop worshiping cows and bowing to Mecca five times a day. Instead work hard at your job, take care of aging parents, volunteer at a soup kitchen, donate to charities and the poor and continue to follow the Commandments (e.g. Thou shalt not kill your fellow humans at any stage of their lives) of your religion or any good rules of living as gracious and good human beings. And lets all hope there indeed is a place called Heaven!!!"
from CCNL1

If this was addressed to me, what exactly makes you think I haven't done these things? What makes you think others don't? I'll have you know I took care of both my disabled parent until they passed, and have worked with several volunteer organizations to the best of my ability. As to my beliefs or lack of them, they aren't any of your business. Sheesh, what got under your skin?

As to often-posted anti-aphrodisac, I will only point out that you would need a totalitarian government in excess of that in China to make that work. You would have to blood-test, monitor and force medicate because ALMOST NO ONE WOULD TAKE IT WILLINGLY!

Aparently, you haven't yet grasped this, so I'll just lay it out. You don't control the world. People won't just believe what you tell them, and do what you tell them, because you think they should. We are not all figments of your imagination. We have our own beliefs, our own desires. And, as to irrationality, I believe someone once said doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results is one definition of insanity. You might want to take a look in the mirror about that one.

Your reposted and reposted solutions just won't work, because people won't do them. I understand that you spend a fair amount of time thinking about these things, so I might suggest some time thinking about how you would make them work. If huge amounts of force are necessary, I invite you to consider the "success" of the current prohibition on marajuana, and the past prohibition on drinking.

Hmmm, "Navin1" continues to show all the elements of a former probability wave. Any ideas as to the identification of this recent addition??

So long as christ intervenes on the part of sinners, sin will increase. It is an ideology that promotes sinfulness.

How would a demon appear in this world? Would a demon come and say I am a demon? No, a demon would come and say I am the son of God, I will guarantee you entry to heaven if you take MY name. No matter how you sin, if you take MY name you will be saved. And fools will pray in His name to the purposeful ignorance of karmic consequence and thus cause hell on earth.

It is the ideology that is fallacious. God's creation, man, is beautiful. You need an ideology of selfish heavenly gain to promote lust in the world and then come to the rescue.

or you could ignore history.

asato ma sad gamaya
tamaso ma jyotir gamaya
mrityur ma amratam gamaya

from
untruth to truth guide me
darkness to light, guide me
death to the eternal guide me

OM, Peace, peace, peace

(see a prayer to God without a name, no ego, simply love and yearning for that god, that is a true religion)

hariaum

How do christian missionaries destroy the world? Ask the natives of the Americas, ask the european indigenous religious cultures, ask the ugandan Hindus, ask the rwandans caught between the curses of the protestant and catholic tribes, ask the celts, ask the south korean buddhists, as the phillipino native cultures, ask the australian aboriginees...

How many cultures need to be destroyed before christians wake up to the misery they have created? How are these cultures destroyed: by forcing indian kids in christian schools where they are abused and raped, by economically undermining educational systems and health systems, by undermining natural agriculture that native peoples co-evolved with their land, by destroying the aural history of those cultures, by manipulation of property rights to favor the christian elites, by banning the free exercise of religious speech (from the romans to evolution), by finding the widow and not allowing her to grieve without opportuinism

How have the christian missionaries caused disparity: by promoting a culture of over consumption, free trade by an invisible hand, obesity, akarmic spirituality, forgiveness of murderers, rapists, and theives that once converted go to heaven - thereby promoting those things (see constatine)..

Take christ out of your mission and I will see you are trying to help and failed because yo are human. Keep him in and all you are doing is attempting to destroy the cultures that were the first born of God's man.

hariaum

So put down your rosaries and prayer beads and stop worshiping cows and bowing to Mecca five times a day. Instead work hard at your job, take care of aging parents, volunteer at a soup kitchen, donate to charities and the poor and continue to follow the Commandments (e.g. Thou shalt not kill your fellow humans at any stage of their lives) of your religion or any good rules of living as gracious and good human beings. And lets all hope there indeed is a place called Heaven!!!

And it is obvious that intercourse and other sexual activities are out of control with over one million abortions and 19 million cases of STDs per year in the USA alone.

And from the CDC-2006
"Sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) remain a major public health challenge in the United States. While substantial progress has been made in preventing, diagnosing, and treating certain STDs in recent years, CDC estimates that approximately 19 million new infections occur each year, almost half of them among young people ages 15 to 24.1 In addition to the physical and psychological consequences of STDs, these diseases also exact a tremendous economic toll. Direct medical costs associated with STDs in the United States are estimated at up to $14.7 billion annually in 2006 dollars."

How in the world do we get this situation under control? A pill to temporarily eliminate the sex drive would be a good start. And teenagers and young adults must be constantly reminded of the dangers of sexual activity and that oral sex, birth control pills, and chastity belts are no protection against STDs. Might a list of those having an STD posted on the Internet help? Sounds good to me!!!! Said names would remain until the STD has been eliminated with verification by a doctor. Lists of sexual predators are on-line. Is there a difference between these individuals and those having a STD having sexual relations while infected???

Hmmm, so a growing baby is considered by some to be nothing more than an infection? Talk about having no respect for life!!!!!

And Nature or Nature's God is the #1 taker of everyone's life. That gives some rational for killing the unborn or those suffering from dementia, mental disease or Alzheimer's or anyone who might inconvenience your life???

We constantly battle the forces of nature.

We do not succumb to these forces by eliminating defenseless children!!!!!

ccnl1 |

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. I was trying to point out that these problems happen in spite of laws that try to control them, in spite of the harsh measures we try to impose, and they have all throughout history. Moralizing and lectures don't stop them, either. Any honest apprasial of history will show that. And I am interested in what works, not in moral purity or absolutes.

As I see it, what works best is a reasonable social support network, so mothers don't have to sell their daughter to feed their son, and parents have a reasonably secure retirement, so they don't abort a daughter because they fear she will be a burden, rather than supporting them in their retirement - the way a son is expected to. These, coupled with opportunities for women to educate and support themselves without resorting to the sex trade, seem to work better than anything else, to my eyes. Do you see it differently?

Draconian punishments DON'T work. That much is known. Outlawing abortion just drives it underground. Desperate people do desperate things. Punishment for prostitution just traps women with their abusers. Those abusers can almost always bribe officals, and escape arrest. Slavery is almost universally illegal, yet girls are still sold by impoverished families. Desperation again. Treat the desperation, and it appears that you ease much of the symptoms it creates.

Note, I said ease, not solve. People have tried to solve these problems for centuries, in many different ways, with all sorts of results, mostly bad. Again, I'm all about what works. One of my favorite sayings is "the perfect is the enemy of the good." Lets do what should make things a bit better, never mind if it's perfect. Let's try to help suffering women and families, rather than sniping at each other about how bad we all are, and how we should punish each other. Lets do some good for a change.

Hmmm,

"In the days before pre-natal testing and available abortions, infant daughters were simply exposed or drowned. Brutal, but highly traditional".

And somehow other brutal traditions like slavery, serfdom, and communism are to be tolerated???? Give us a break!!!!!!

DouginMoz, thank you for your response. I am well aware of the valuable work that many Christian groups do in aiding the poor all over the world, and I commmend you for it. I live in the Seattle-Federal Way area, the home of World Vision, and I have been privilaged to work with this fine organization on a couple of small projects. I was both humbled and made very proud by the experience

However, your comment "The way that you will destroy human sex slave trade is to destroy the sinful desires that drive the market" is just not realistic. It has never, in the history of the world, worked. It just leads to blaming the victim. Sexual desire is both normal and a powerful force in humanity. Harsh laws keep women and girls bound to the sex-trade, and make corruption endemic in both their victimizers and the police.

I remember, on this blog, Kay Warren taking about being "gloriously destroyed" when she discovered the global tragedy that is AIDS. Before her awakening, she, in her own words, "sat in judgement" on those suffering from AIDS, assuming they deseved their fate. Her awakening came in a global tour, where she was able to seperate her discomfort with homosexuality from the devastation of the disease. Without her unease about homosexuality, she wouldn't have made what she now feels was a tragic mistake.

As to pedophilia, rape, prostitution and polygamy, they are both traditional and Biblical. I assume you know your Old Testament. The "Kill everyone, except the virgin girls, and keep them for yourself" combat instructions? The "sell your daughter" verses? Joseph Smith cited Old Testament polygamy in beginning plural marriage in the Morman church. To assume these problems are part of modernity is just wrong. The more modern, the less traditional a society is, the less they are likely to be involved in sexual slavery, brutality towards women, or child-abuse. That was my whole point. Oppression of women, ownership of children, these are traditional. That's why I'm curious about how people who believe strongly in these values feel about the dark side of tradition.

I am well aware how rich the west is, compared to many cultures. That's why I feel we need to get involved. but not with conversion-attempts or lecturing, but by helping to grow the economic base, to "raise all boats." The Catholic church has largly eliminated standard missionary work, in favor of "boots-on-the-ground," material help. I think that really creates a better witness, by their works you really do know them.

The abuse of women starts early in many countries. For example, the abortion of female womb babies just because they are female!! And we wonder why females are who are lucky to be born are disrespected and abused???
Posted by: ccnl1

I think you miss the point, ccnl1. Female fetuses are aborted at a higher rate because the society their mothers are part of don't value females. That's a large part of traditional values (just not the ones we usually think of), in both the east and west. It's both cultural and economic.

Sons were more valued in societies with a warrior culture. Sparta is a classic example here, imperial Rome another. Women were mainly valued for the production of sons. Your sons were your contribution to the military might of your society, and therefore your importance.

From an economic standpoint, in tradtional societies brides go to live with their husband's family. Sons stay at home with their parents, and support them in their old age. Your sons (and their wives) are your retirement plan. Your daughters will be working to support their in-laws. The saying in China is, that in raising your daughter, you are raising someone else's happiness.

With no retirement pensions, the "your sons will take care of you" system means you are at a disadvantage if you have a daughter. If your value in your culture's eyes comes from the sons you offer to the military, you are worth less if you have daughters. No pensions provided by society, martial values being paramount in society, this is very traditional. Again, just not what people usually mean by traditional values.

In the days before pre-natal testing and available abortions, infant daughters were simply exposed or drowned. Brutal, but highly traditional.

Gimpi wrote:
I'd really like to hear from conservative Christians on this.
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Granted.

Gimpi also wrote:
It's the traditional-minded, conservative Christians that are the most active in their churches. Yet they are often uneasy with any issue that features sex, gender-equity or poverty-relief.
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Gimpi, you are working under several false assumptions. For example, Christian ministries have always been at the forefront of poverty relief. Before the government began stepping in, Christian charities (Salvation Army, YMCA, St. Vincent de Paul Society, et al.) were the safety-net for the impoverished. The vast majority of hospitals and orphanages were church-owned because they were church created. Even today, evangelical Christians pay taxes, but in general gives 8 times more to charity than the national average, pentecostal Christians give 5 times more as do political conservatives. "Compassionate conservative" is not an oxymoron. Why that reputation is saddled on us is because we feel that the churches do it cheaper and better and with a more personal touch than the government bureacracy.
As for sex, we are not uneasy with the subject, but we do understand the wisdom behind the biblical mandates. We have already pointed out that lust for sex, money and power are at the root of the human trafficking dilemma as well as sexual abuse, pedophilia, incest, rape, prostitution, single mothers, adultery, polygamy, divorce, fatherless homes, STD's including AIDS, abortions and premature death by the millions.
You mentioned that the way to end human trafficking is to end poverty with societal protections. Would I be right in assuming that you have never lived in a nation whose government could not afford to support itself, much less its people? The way that you will destroy human sex slave trade is to destroy the sinful desires that drive the market. Let us use your example of Norway. You are probably right. I don't think that too many Norwegian girls are sold into the market. But there is or at least was a viable market in Norway for foreign girls to be sold there. A dramatic increase in the crimeSome say that as many as 150 girls per week were being brought over the Russian border. It was the Christian churches of Norway that led the charge in diseminating information and raising public awareness about this blight privately shaming those involved. Not only did Norway pass stringent laws, but they also offered their country as an international witness protection program for those that would turn evidence against their abusers.

Navin1, your first comment was way off base, but your second post was right on target.
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If you are talking about trafficking and the global effort to eradicate it, where is mention of Hindu, Muslim, atheistic, and other traditions that are doing this work.Or perhaps we are not talking about trafficking, rather this is just another advertisement for the surface gestures of christian charity ....
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If you will allow me to explain, there are three reasons why this was billed as Christian work. Not all of the reasons are just, but they are reasonable to assume. 1.) Global issues of underground tragedies (Sudanese slavery, Darfour genocide, and yes, human trafficking)are usually discussed in Christian magazines and blogs months and even years ahead of the mainstream media. 2.) Christian missions has far greater numbers in the overseas work force and a longer history of providing needs and social justice than the other religions. Indeed, it is only in recent history that governments or the U.N. has been able to surpass Christian charities in doing this type of work for the good of other nations. 3.)This is an American news site, and whereas America is truly diversified and Christianity is declining in both Spirit and numbers, the majority of Americans still think of themselves as Christians. Naturally the Post is going to appeal to its readership.

May I ask you a question. Could you be a little more specific about how the work of Christian missionaries is one of the major causes of disparity in the world? As a Christian missionary, I just want to understand of what I am being accused.

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But, as I said, your second comment was right on. You wrote: "the root cause is lust."

We have created a world with a new morality concerning sex. The new morality is actually old sexual immorality and it has been with us a long time. It says that we should have sex with whomever, whenever, wherever and however we want. We peddle pornographic fantasies to turbo-charge a promiscuous environment and then wonder at the fact that three American men were just arrested this week for travelling half way round the world in order to have sex with children. And they aren't even the tip of this iceberg. The fact that Moldavia has lost 10% of its female population to human trafficking isn't the tip of this iceberg. You are right. Whether it is the lust of the flesh, the greed of wealth, or the search for power, it is our lusts that are the root cause of this problem - lusts so powerful that they threaten to create a new slave trade greater than that of the 18th century.
Let's continue this conversation with gimipi

The abuse of women starts early in many countries. For example, the abortion of female womb babies just because they are female!! And we wonder why females who are lucky to be born at all in these countries are disrespected and abused???

Gimipi

I love what you have to say.
I add that the root cause is lust. Personal ego-gratification. The criminals are far more the consumers than the suppliers to a market. As we lust we overconsume, either sexually, in energy, in ideological dogma, etc. Thus until the wealthy world turns to itself and points out that lust, now termed consumerism, is a root problem, they will continue to come to the rescue of those injured by their lust (to make their conscience feel better).

Otherwise, they could learn self discipline, eat and consume less, and perform raja yoga to control the ego.

hariaum

The abuse of women starts early in many countries. For example, the abortion of female womb babies just because they are female!! And we wonder why females are who are lucky to be born are disrespected and abused???

Part of the problem in getting tradtion-minded Christians in the US involved in attacking the root causes of human trafficking is that those causes ARE traditional. Lower value and lesser rights for women. Grinding poverty, and no social supports to alleviate it. Absolute parental control of children. Slavery. These are all traditional values (not the ones we usually think of, but traditional values none the less). It's the traditional-minded, conservative Christians that are the most active in their churches. Yet they are often uneasy with any issue that features sex, gender-equity or poverty-relief.

It's hard to tell Cambodia that their culture should grant equal rights for women if you are uncomfortable with equality in your own culture. (Remember, the US defeated our own ERA years ago, with strong support from US Christians.) Christian conservatives were opposed to the UN's "Rights of the Child" movement in the late '80s. (Much of the Dobson-style "spare-the-rod" culture was born then.) We had to fight a war (a war that in some ways is still going on) to end chattel slavery in the US.

Simply passing laws banning prostitution, we know from experience, changes nothing except to open up huge opportunities for corruption. Draconian punishements just adds misery to misery, and makes it impossible for enslaved girls and women to seek help. The corrupt trafficers and officals are generally untouchable. It's already illegal to sell your daughters in many places where it's commonplace; desperate people break laws to survive.

We know from our own and other societies that societal protections from grinding poverty and desperate need will do much more to end these abuses than anything else. (When was the last time you heard of anyone selling Norwegian girls?) Yet, as uncomfortable as Christian conservatives are with these protections in our own society, how can they encourage other societies to adopt them?

I'd really like to hear from conservative Christians on this. Can you encourage Cambodia to develop a saftey-net, while mistrusting our own as "socialism"? Can we want equal rights for Asian women, while regarding gender-equality at home with suspicion? Can you argue for less parental control in other societies, while wanting more for ourselves? How can these causes get your support? The Lord knows, they could use it.

If you are talking about trafficking and the global effort to eradicate it, where is mention of Hindu, Muslim, atheistic, and other traditions that are doing this work.Or perhaps we are not talking about trafficking, rather this is just another advertisement for the surface gestures of christian charity while glossing over one of the major causes of disparity in the world, the work of christian missionaries (not to mention the exploitation of children by catholic priests and american christians in BIA schools).

hariaum