Limbaugh, the Vatican and a Woman's Place

Is the story of the 9-year-old getting an abortion accurate? I generally have a lot of appreciation for the wonderful parts of the Catholic Church even though I am Protestant and disagree with some Catholic doctrine. This story makes me wonder if some Cahtolics are making an idol out of their opposition to abortion. While I would like to see less abortion I can't agree with this type of response.

Seems the me the abortion story from Brazil (if true) would make a wonderful Bible story about the rigidity of the Pharisees and Sadducees had it happened 2,000 years earlier.

What the Catholic Church put out about women being liberated by technology is stupid.

Regarding the nine-year old girl who was raped by her step-father, the mother and the doctors did the right thing. It was the only possible choice. This child was raped and could have died giving birth. Everyone who has been excommunicated is better off. How can these people feel that the Church has anything worthwhile to say to them? The step-father should also have been ex-communicated. This is a double-standard. The crime he committed was one of the most vile imaginable. Based on secular law, I think justice can only be served by having the step-father put to death by the state. It is unfathomable that the Church ex-communicated the very people who tried to do the best thing possible, and the step-father is not thrown out of the Church. This is insanity. The Catholic Church has given me another reason why I am glad I left the Church for good.

"Without as much work to do, housewives became bored. Plus, purchasing and maintaining all these "convenience" appliances taxed people's income, so women had to go to work."

____________

Is that the only reason why women wanted to work?

Could it be that they got divorced and were now forced to support a family on their own? Could it be that their husband died and they had to now support a family on their own? What about if their husband became disabled and they were left the sole-support of their family?

There are many, many reasons for this movement. But what it boils down to is standing on our own two feet and not relying on someone else because we couldn't always count on our spouse's support.

And don't forget that women are intelligent and driven individuals just like men. Maybe the reason why they were so bored is because they were never given a chance to live up to their full potential.

There are women who thrive as mothers, others who love juggling family and career, and still more who prefer to make a mark in the working world. The wonderful thing about today is that women in our country now have that choice.

My wife and I share housekeeping tasks, so we are both equally liberated by modern appliances. Liberated to be able to spend more time with each other, our children, family and friends, and to spend more time helping at church and in the community. This is the promise realized, at least by myself, though the blessing of being born into a pluarlistic free society. There are still those in this society though that hang on to the past's hierarchy of man above woman, including many religious denominations, especially Catholic. Women Catholic Priests in correct proportion to the Catholic membership would go a long way to resolving the old stereotypes.

The comment about the washing machine was a "ploy" of the Vatican? How nefarious of those rascals! In today's secular culture, to call someone a "domestic worker" is to insult that person - so it's no surprise that reference to a machine that relieves such work does not bring praise from that secular culture. Any job worth doing is worthy of respect.

bruce18 wrote: "The mother and doctors were excommunicated for murdering the fetus, not saving the child's life, which of course is NOT a crime. Unfortunately, a good outcome cant justify the intervening action. It helps to understand the situation before commenting."

I completely understand the thinking behind this and the motive for the excommunications and sparing the step father from excommunication. That is why I sit here with my jaw dropped to the floor. A mother fears for her daughter's life and is excommunicated for wanting to abort the fetuses to save her daughter's life. The doctors are also excommunicated for following their Hipocratic Oath. I guess the church would be ok with the daughter dying along with the fetuses since that was the prognosis of the doctors. After all, it seems fetuses and embryos are more equal than those who breathe. And no action against the criminal who put his daughter in this situation.

Please explain where the morality is in any of this since if the church had its way you would end up with two dead fetuses, a dead 9-year old, and a step father heading to heaven (after a few Our Fathers in a confessional).

There is no God, but He is definitely male.

Bevjims1,
you wrote: You realize of course that the mother was also excommunicated for agreeing to save her 9 year old's life, but the step father, who is in custody, is not going to be excommunicated. It seems the local bishop feels the doctors aborting the twin fetuses and the mother agreeing to it is a higher crime than the step father raping the 9-year old.

The mother and doctors were excommunicated for murdering the fetus, not saving the child's life, which of course is NOT a crime. Unfortunately, a good outcome cant justify the intervening action. It helps to understand the situation before commenting.

"The Vatican article hit many raw nerves, especially coming in the same week as the excommunication in Brazil of the doctors who performed an abortion on a nine-year-old who had been raped and was pregnant with twins. (Doctors feared the child's life would be put in danger if she had to give birth.)"

You realize of course that the mother was also excommunicated for agreeing to save her 9 year old's life, but the step father, who is in custody, is not going to be excommunicated. It seems the local bishop feels the doctors aborting the twin fetuses and the mother agreeing to it is a higher crime than the step father raping the 9-year old.

This is the morality of the Catholic church and it is insane. No one should have to fear saving their child and no one should escape punishment for rape, but these are the morals from a church that not only produced pedophile priests but actively supported the activity. Is anyone surprised the church believes the step father (after a few Our Fathers) is going to heaven and the mother is going to hell, or that this is from the church which when it actually governed gave us the dark ages?

And for even more evidence of the male dominated thinking of the church, this is from "The Independent" newspaper describing the thinking of the church about the 9year old Brizilian girls abortion:

"The unnamed girl's mother and doctors were excommunicated for agreeing to Wednesday's emergency abortion yet the Church has not taken formal steps against the stepfather, who is in custody. Jose Cardoso Sobrinho, the conservative regional archbishop for Pernambuco where the girl was rushed to hospital, has said that the man would not be thrown out of the Church, because although he had allegedly committed "a heinous crime", the Church took the view that "the abortion, the elimination of an innocent life, was more serious". "

So an abortion to save the life of a raped 9-year-old girl is a "heinous crime" yet a man raping a young girl under his care does not rise to the level of excommunication. This is the thinking in the Catholic church. It should not be surprising that this mentality also brought about not only pedophile activity among its priests but also active support for that activity at the highest levels of the church. When I was young the brutality I experienced in the church made me realize it was a mafia that thought it was doing good. Its seems little has changed.

The caring mother of this poor girl and the brave doctors should feel emancipated. The church can keep the step father. He's the kind of guy the church can understand.

Just more of the same from a religion I use to be part of, that systematically subjugates women, excludes women from its highest offices, and is stuck in the bronze age. The Catholic church, like most during the bronze age, subjugated women into their "place". Its better today but not thanks to the church. Thank the enlightment and the more recent sufferage and equal rights movements for the emancipation of women, something the Catholic church either did not support of actively opposed. Within the Catholic church all the gains women have made in 2000 years cannot be found. Its sad. I see how other christian religions thrive with female leadership and involvement.

And if the washing machine was what emancipated women, then slaves also emancipated women by doing the washing for them. Slavery is actively support in the bible by God. But it took Americans to stop slavery here and help rid the world of it through direct intervention and example. What did the church do to stop slavery? Anyone? Maybe the church would argue that the end of slavery has added a burden to women?

When the Catholic church learns that it is made up of bronze age thinking fallible men and therefore should correct its inability to enlighten itself, then we will see married female priests and one day a female pope. Only then will women, Catholic women anyway, be truly emancipated. Until then may I suggest becoming Lutheran. Everything is the same except the pastors kiss their spouses after mass and your kids can be friends with the pastor's kids. And no supernatural lightening bolts or floods have happened due to what the celebite male Catholic heiarchy would call heresy.

1. Women "spiritually inferior"? Mother Angelica, anyone? First of all, let's distinguish "spirituality" from "sacramentality." Then there's the fact that women can bear children, and men can't. And then there's the fact that far more women fill the pews of Catholic Churches than men. As my father-in-law says, "If they ever ordain women, the men will stop coming to church altogether."

Posted by Godsgadfly

Godsgadfly,

It is my opinion that the very fact that women bear children makes women superior to men. The human race could not even exist without women. One day science may devise technologies that will make men completely irrelevant. I had a male biology teacher who thought just that. I remember because I agreed with at the time and still do.

Women do fill the Catholic Churches more than men do. That is also true of other churches. Women are not using their power. If women stopped supporting the Catholic Church, the pain would be felt at the local levels. The Church cannot do without women, but women are helping the Church to continue on with its sexist ways. Withdrawing support is what needs to be done. I cannot fathom why any self-respecting woman supports any church when she is treated as second-class. I don't know if what your father-in-law said would come to pass. However, that would teach the Catholic Church a good lesson. Who would be left? Nobody. Unless women use their power, they will remain second-class and have no influence on policy formation. Why women do not leave organized religion and start their own churches is a mystery to me. They could rid themselves of all sexism, but they continue to go back and listen to men. What do men know that don't? Nothing.

The Catholic Church would not have the sex scandals if it had lifted the ban on all qualified married men and all qualified women for the priesthood. The Church had to lower its standards to fill slots. Who can listen to a priest and not wonder? The Church brought most of the sex scandals on itself. Perhaps it is just punishment for the sexism is has perpetrated against women.

Reply to GeneCar,

You stated that if women cannot become priests, then neither can men become mothers. I consider this statment silly. It is biologically impossible for men to become pregnant. Men can be parents (fathers) just as women can be parents (mothers). The fact that only women are able to become pregnant and give life is just a biological fact of nature. That has nothing to do with the priesthood. Nowhere can it be found that Jesus ever said women could not be priests. Nowhere in the Gospels or any part of the New Testament is there anything barring women from the prieshood. This is a man-made law, made by men for men so they can run the Church. This has nothing to do with what you called "sameness." It certainly has everything to do with equality. What would you say if science is one day able to make it so that men can become pregnant and give birth? Could such a man still be a priest or relegated to second-class status?

1. Women "spiritually inferior"? Mother Angelica, anyone? First of all, let's distinguish "spirituality" from "sacramentality." Then there's the fact that women can bear children, and men can't. And then there's the fact that far more women fill the pews of Catholic Churches than men. As my father-in-law says, "If they ever ordain women, the men will stop coming to church altogether."

2. Prior to the washing machine and the vacuum, women's lives were drudgery of housework. Suddenly, women had all these "convenience" appliances to cut their workloads into a fraction. Right in line with the rise of the soap operas, which gave women something to do while waiting for the washing machines and dishwashers, and made them feel inadequate about their family lives. Without as much work to do, housewives became bored. Plus, purchasing and maintaining all these "convenience" appliances taxed people's income, so women had to go to work.

Women thought somehow that men were sitting back enjoying themselves at the office. Little did they know that working for pay is just as slavish as, but far less rewarding than serving one's family.

Yet the Catholic vision is one of sacrifice, one of embracing pain and suffering as the least we can do to make up for our sins, which cost Christ so much. The Protestant says, "Isn't Jesus great?! He did all that so I don't have to suffer!" The Catholic says, "Jesus was innocent and suffered horribly. I am a sinner, and I need to embrace my cross."

That's true whether you're a man or a woman.

Brilliant! Now the Pope is embracing Materialistic Determinism -- the official philosophy of the International Communist Party -- that technology leads social change. Now the liberation of women is seen by the Catholic Church as only the adaption to advanced technology!

How does this relate to the Catholic abortion taboo?

MBSMCMILLAN, you're right that men would bury wives dead from childbirth, but what does that have to do with technology? Technology didn't make childbirth safer. Sanitary practices did. Perhaps you're confounding infant mortality with maternal mortality.

More to the point, burying wives is more drudgery than dying! My point that technology was as much a boon to men as to women is a literal truth, that ill-serves your point to deny.

???

The two highest distinctions that the Catholic Church can confer on any person is Sainthood and recognition as a Doctor of the Church. Historically, there are as many great women saints as there are male. And an increasing number of women are recognized as Doctors, for instance, Teresa of Avila, Teresa of Liseaux, Edith Stein and Catherine of Seine. If women cannot become priests, then neither can men become mothers. There is no reason to believe that male and female spiritual gifts are the same any more than their vital biological gifts are the same. Equality should not be conflated with 'sameness'. It is thus that gender feminism thus destroys feminiity.

Certainly the Catholic Church does not treat women as equal to men. All women are barred from the priesthood. The Vatican is run by men who make proclamations about women. What do they know about women? Who is the Pope to try to brainwash women not to be in control of their own bodies and lives? The Catholic Church needs women at the Vatican forming policy, not only men.

MBSMCMILLIAN----I agree with you that the nine-year old girl who had an abortion is probably scarred for life. Who ruined her life? The male who ruined her life was her sep-father, the male who raped her. What about that? What he did was commit rape and incest. I do not agree with you that the abortion added to the tragedy. Who can expect a nine-year old girl to give birth? She is a child. It is my opinion that abortion was the best choice in a disastrous situation. I noticed that you never mentioned the step-father who committed such a heinous act against his step-daughter. All the blame lies with the step-father. I believe the step-father should be subject to capital punishment for what he did.

I am a former Catholic who is now an atheist.

I consider myself a feminist, but not in the sense with which liberals have corrupted the word. Any person who would suggest that the Catholic Church treats women as spiritually inferior to men clearly does not have enough knowledge or understanding of that particular faith to be commenting on it. Radicalgal, thanks for sharing your ignorance with us. The hardcore liberals are not the only witnesses to some profound injustice that the Church has forced upon the world. Or would you say that Nancy Pelosi is a slave?
Jhbyer, before "technology," women frequently died during childbirth, and it was not uncommon for a husband to bury two and even three wives. My point is that we didn't suddenly "get" technology.

Katherine Marshall, I'm hoping using the example of the nine year-old girl to make your point about abortion was beneath you. It's no different from a gun nut arguing that 9/11 could have been prevented if everyone was free to carry guns everywhere. You seem to feel like the fact that this girl obtained an abortion means that the story had a happy ending. I feel like her life is irreparibly damaged either way. All the abortion did was add to the tragedy. When are you liberals going to come to terms with the fact that a Catholic's opposition to abortion has nothing to do with sexual morality. We believe that a new human being is created at the moment of conception, and therefore, all abortions are murder. You believe something else, but there is no way to prove who is right. We choose to err on the safe side.

Dear Katherin,
I finally discovered your blog.
Hope to read more from you.
André Gué

Well, I didn't read the article, and I don't intend to, but it seemed like a bad attempt at humor to me.

I think the bigger problem is that the Roman Catholic Church treats women as lesser than men in the most important way -- spiritually.

Whoa! I take a backseat to no feminist, but, on behalf of my "brothers" I must take issue with:

"Women's lives, even more than men's, were filled with drudgery in the past."

That solipsistic error echoes Rush and the Vatican.

Life was short and brutish for men and long and terrible for women, in the words a fair-minded philosopher. Before technology, manual labor was a burden endured in the fields no less than in the home. Science has made all of our lives physically easier. Mentally? Hmm, funner but harder, imo.