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The Saudi Fashion Police
ISLAM AND THE WEST
By Daniel Brumberg
Rana Jad is a 20-year-old student at Dar al-Hikma Women's College . . . "Girls don't feel very comfortable when males are selling them lingerie, telling them what size is for them . . . He's totally checking the girls out! It's just not appropriate, especially here in our culture."
That's an excerpt from a BBC story about Dr. Reem Asaad, a finance professor who recently launched an Internet campaign to have Saudi Arabia's lingerie shops staffed by women. Taking a solidly business-like approach, Dr. Asaad insists that "the consumers are the final decision makers." Rana Jad -- one of her keen students -- clearly agrees.
Wrapped in this story of Saudi lingerie sales is a larger tale of politics, conservative Islam and state legitimacy.
As I was reminded in my recent trip to Riyadh, Saudi Arabia boasts a sophisticated class of professional women. Those professors, doctors, scientists and businesswomen believe that their faith allows them to fully participate in economic life, and in the halting liberalization of the country's political institutions.
Traditionalists have long opposed the entrance of Saudi women into the business world. But in a country ruled by a Royal Family -- partly beholden to a clerical establishment that defends a deeply embedded social conservatism -- it is wholly inappropriate for men to assist women in selecting underwear. So in 2006, an ordinance was passed giving women the right to sell lingerie. Making good strategic use of the country's conservative ethos to advance their quest for equal economic rights, Saudi women entrepreneurs secured one small victory,
But the lingerie law was never enforced. In a country with 13% of the male workforce unemployed and a judiciary controlled by clerics, women are still thwarted from entering the retail sales system. That is why Professor Reem's campaign is not about who sells underwear. Ultimately, it is an effort to loosen and realign some of the uneven threads in the fabric of conservative cultural and religious hegemony in Saudi Arabia.
Saudi leaders recently have taken steps that might advance this wider struggle. On King Abdullah's orders, the country's first woman minister has been appointed. The King also has appointed moderate clerics to a powerful committee of religious scholars. These steps are hardly revolutionary, however. None of the moderates threaten hard-line conservatives. And the woman minister was appointed by a King who, while he has allowed municipal elections to take place, (women excluded), in large measure does not have to worry about the formal constraints of democratic governance.
Some argue that this absence of democratic accountability is a necessary evil. The problem facing women's rights advocates in Saudi Arabia -- a problem not confined to the Muslim world by any means -- is that elections in a land still permeated by a socially conservative ethos can produce an assembly of leaders opposed to change. If, as Mel Brooks once said, "it's good to be King," it can be useful to have a benevolent, forward thinking monarch who selectively deploys his authority to foster -- or even impose -- modern reforms.
The problem, of course, is that today's benevolent monarch might be replaced by tomorrow's backward looking, malevolent king -- a point that I am sure has occurred to Professor Asaad and her enthusiastic students.
Daniel Brumberg is acting director of U.S. Institute of Peace's Muslim World Initiative and associate professor at Georgetown University.
By Daniel Brumberg |
February 27, 2009; 1:08 PM ET
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Posted by: Concerned the Christian Now Liberated | March 6, 2009 3:49 PM
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Nah, descended from Buddha. Or a case of convergence, as with dolphins and ichthyosaurs.
/moves to next exhibit/ :)
Posted by: cacxo | March 6, 2009 12:16 PM
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CCNL : "And again (and again, and again......) the Obfuscating, Reality Challenged and "Crossanized" Jihadist shows her breeding, birthing and brainwashing in hallucination-based Islam as she fails again to come to grips with Islam's flaws and errors in its history and theology. But as always, we will continue in our quest to show her the way to Reality and Truth."
Ahhh...I am a believer already "cleansed" in mind and soul by Islam on "Truth and Reality" on homo sapiens, warts and all.
I'll leave you to the "majority" for some days while I go out to pillage all those toxicated assets at such low prices and increase my asset holdings from 25% increase last year to 150% increase this year:)
Good luck in "correcting" the theology of Christianity on Jesus and Christ here and there.
J the Islamist-Capitalist-Oppurtunistic Bear
Posted by: Jihadist | March 6, 2009 11:50 AM
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And again (and again, and again......) the Obfuscating, Reality Challenged and "Crossanized" Jihadist shows her breeding, birthing and brainwashing in hallucination-based Islam as she fails again to come to grips with Islam's flaws and errors in its history and theology. But as always, we will continue in our quest to show her the way to Reality and Truth.
Posted by: Concerned the Christian Now Liberated | March 6, 2009 9:28 AM
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Cacxo : :Ultimately, time and Darwin are on the side of the new age, and the fundies are in serious trouble, if Jesus does not materialize soon, to tell them to go seek divine or mundane truths on their own."
150 years on after the birth of Darwin and with the publication of his "Origin of Species"....
There is, for those really interested to observe and to glean from empirical evidence, that since man ran to chase mastadons to now running to chase off body fat, religions has developed, mutated, permutated, cross-breed, evolved in new speicies. We do not have to go far to see new evolved species such as Scientologists in America and Chrislam in Nigeria among newer species of the religionistus group.
Darwin would be most interested in the survival of religious spieces, evolutions of old ones, development of new ones. He may find a particular specie, spiritualis atheistus a most fascinating hybrid and rare sub-subspecie of the atheistus group.
Posted by: Jihadist | March 6, 2009 9:15 AM
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CCNL : "And considering the 2000 years of breeding, birthing and brainwashing of Christians, it will take a few more years to Deprogram and Deflaw Christianity. Thanks to the studies of many contemporary NT and historic Jesus exegetes, however, the first steps have begun. In ten years, these slow steps will turn into a 100 yd dash to the finish line of Truth and Reality!!!"
And one had thought that the "West" has gone from the Dark Ages to the Lite Ages now after going through the Enlightenment Age.
Christianity is not a computer programme to be deprogrammed. It is not a machine to be deflawed. Perhaps CCNL is talking about the revisions of the Jesus Seminarians on the NT.
In 2019, i.e. ten years from now there will be Religionist Olympics where Jesus Seminarians will participate in a 100 yard dash to the finish line of "Truth and Reality"? It will have to be a hundred metre dash in keeping with contemporary global usage of metric system for measurements.
Rumours has it that finishing line of "Truth" has yet to be agreed due to disputes on what is "truth", whether it is final, whether it has been attained. "Reality" is also the subject of controversy as some are still asking, "How do I know I am not dreaming?"
It must be Miller Time
Cheers with Miller Lite
Posted by: Jihadist | March 6, 2009 8:58 AM
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The fundies are fundies because they know the absolute and final truth, that would turn their dwelling into paradise. And if application of that truth does not turn their dwelling into paradise, they can always lay the blame on vast conspiracies against them - jews, capitalists etc.
Any absolute and final truth would fail to deliver paradise, because the world and people change - adhering to absolute truths makes people unadaptive and uncompetitive even if the 'final truth' happened to be true during the time period of its formulation.
The real glaring contradiction within the fundie middle east, is that it takes cars, electricity, TVs, airplanes and antibiotics for granted. What good would having oil be, without someone having cars and buying oil? What goods would oil money buy the fundies, without the decadent west? It is blatantly obvious that Allah intended decadent capitalism, otherwise they'd still be stuck in the middle ages and live much worse.
The fundies could argue that research and social conservatism are not mutually exclusive, but they are. A conservative society does not produce people who can search for new things and does not value them if it has them - it oppressed them, otherwise it wouldn't be a 'conservative society'.
Even if you take the least conservative interpretation of islam you are still stuck with the fact that Muhammad is the last and final prophet of God, i.e. the idea of final truth. Jewish prophets leave things incomplete by referring to a future messiah, or, in the case of Jesus - a second coming, but that merely postpones the final truth, rather than do away with the idea of final truth.
And at the other end of the spectrum you have William Blake and his New Age, in which everyone is a prophet; Blake is not the last prophet or expecting one - he is the first (or zeroth) of increasingly more to come after him.
Ultimately, time and Darwin are on the side of the new age, and the fundies are in serious trouble, if Jesus does not materialize soon, to tell them to go seek divine or mundane truths on their own.
Posted by: cacxo | March 5, 2009 3:58 PM
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more on a similar topic
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/mar/04/iran-women?commentpage=2&commentposted=1
(my comment as 'AVG8')
Posted by: cacxo | March 5, 2009 3:56 PM
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And still The Jihadist cannot come to grips with the Five Easy Steps to Deprogram/Deflaw Islam as she continues in her attempts to deflect criticism of the "worst book ever written" and the hallucinations upon which it is based.
And considering the 2000 years of breeding, birthing and brainwashing of Christians, it will take a few more years to Deprogram and Deflaw Christianity. Thanks to the studies of many contemporary NT and historic Jesus exegetes, however, the first steps have begun. In ten years, these slow steps will turn into a 100 yd dash to the finish line of Truth and Reality!!!
Unfortunately the horrors dictated by one long-dead Arab and his imaginary friend will last many more years. But who knows maybe The Jihadist will someday see the light and be Islam's version of Professor Crossan et al!!!!
Posted by: Concerned the Christian Now Liberated | March 5, 2009 3:20 PM
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Hello Halozcel,
- What are the differences between a secular democrat, a secular communist, a secular humanist, a secular authoritarian, a secular dictator?
- What is the difference between compassionate conservative and conservative compassion?
- What is the difference between a human cannibal and a business cannibal?
- What is the difference between a state of war and a state of peace?
- What is the difference between a Rhode Island Red chicken and a Swedish chicken?
- What is the difference between a terrorist state and a terrorist organisation?
- What are the differences between global aspirations by states, by businesses, by drug cartels, by terrorists?
- What is the difference between human resources and human capital?
- What is the difference between human utilisation and human exploitation?
- What is the differences between apples and oranges?
Posted by: Jihadist | March 5, 2009 1:30 PM
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*Halozcel likes chicken(especially Swedish chicken),chicken like chicken feed,therefore Halozcel likes chicken feed*
*Halozcel is secular,Pol Pot is secular,therefore Halozcel should love Pol Pot*
*All cucumbers are vegetable,but not all vegetables are cucumbers*
*There are many terrorist group on the earth,but only muslim ones are worldwide*
*South Korea has no material natural resources*
*Afghanistan has no material natural resources*
What is the difference between South Korea and Afghanistan ?
*Japan has human resources*
*Saudi Arabia has human resources.Saudi King has forty wives*
What is the difference ?
*Australia was island of cannibals three centuries ago*
*Indonesia was island of cannibals three centuries ago*
What is the difference at present time ?
Posted by: Halozcel | March 5, 2009 12:47 PM
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Halozcel : "We are talking about *worldwide/global terror* from US to Europe to India to Indonesia. Is there any worldwide non-muslim terrorist group(s) ? No,no.That is the point."
- Tamil Tigers are given moral, financial and other forms of support by some Indian Tamils outside of Sri Lanka. The IRA was supported by some Irish Americans too. Or Tamil Tigers and the IRA will not be able to sustain such long conflicts.
- Hamas and Hezbollah are "local" in their fight with various external supports. Al Qaeda has its origins in a domestic disagreement between Osama and the Saudi government on the presense of US troops and bases in the Kingdom and to fight against Saddam's Iraq. There's a sort of cross-fertilisation with technical exchanges, information sharing, material procurements, ad hoc strategic alliances among terrorist groups such as JI and Al-Q. But they are non-state actors with no hope in attaining their objectives as they are criminals hunted down by states.
Halozcel : "Pol Pot(Kmer Rouge) was a communist,not a secular democrat."
- Surely not implying that secular democrats deserve unconditional and uncritical love even when they sin in pillaging and plundering and murdering and collateral damage? But not Pol Pot because he was a communist?
Halozcel : "Islam/submission paralyzes community and brings poverty. That is core issue.
Third world states(some of them) in poverty,but they have no natural sources,but some islamic/bedouin countries(Gulf States) have huge oil-dollars.What are they doing ? They are wasting their money to built *artificial islands* on the sea."
- Japan and South Korea have no material natural resources, but human resources. Gulf states have sovereign wealth funds invested in the west and the rest, including injecting funds in ailing US financial institutions to their own loss. For now. The Gulf states are all competing to be the tourism, financial, trade, shoping centres of the Middle East. Looks and feel like mini-Singapores in the Gulf, especially Dubai with the added mix of Disney World and Vegas without the casinos.
Posted by: Jihadist | March 5, 2009 9:24 AM
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CCNL : "And again The Jihadist fails to address the Five Steps to Deprogram/Deflaw Islam!!!!"
First, a non-guaranteed "will work" Five Step Programme on the greatest, broadest, deepest, widest and other hyperboles current crises - the economy.
1. Reduce tax for the poor
2. Increase tax for the rich
3. Reduce defence spending
4. Increase spending for social services
5. Increase spending on infrastructures
And there be a free range chicken in every pot for carnivarous sorts, and organic mushrooms in every pot for vegetarian sorts.
Posted by: Jihadist | March 5, 2009 8:57 AM
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CCNL : :"Said wake up calls have been going on for the last 200 years of NT studies with said results culminating in the work of NT exegetes such as Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen."
That is telling.
200 years and still ongoing in the most Enlightened, developed, educated, and among richest nation in the world?
Surely the work of the Jesus Seminarians are from from being final word, and far from conclusive or have culminated on the NT and OT.
And certainly, many Christians either have not heard the "wake up calls" by the Jesus Seminarians, or have heard nor care.
There should be a study as to why, including on the "marketing" by the Jesus Seminarians on their works in the supermarket of ideas where consumers doth pick and chose, and when they have chosen, may spat out the product and never buy it again.
Posted by: Jihadist | March 5, 2009 8:51 AM
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And again The Jihadist fails to address the Five Steps to Deprogram/Deflaw Islam!!!!
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | March 4, 2009 6:52 PM
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Jihadist,
Tamil Tigers(Sri Lanka cricket team was terrorized in Pakistan),Basque(Northern Spain),IRA(Ulster) are all local terrorist groups.We are talking about *worldwide/global terror* from US to Europe to India to Indonesia.
Is there any worldwide non-muslim terrorist group(s) ? No,no.That is the point.
Pol Pot(Kmer Rouge) was a communist,not a secular democrat.
Islam/submission paralyzes community and brings poverty.That is core issue.
Third world states(some of them) in poverty,but they have no natural sources,but some islamic/bedouin countries(Gulf States) have huge oil-dollars.What are they doing ? They are wasting their money to built *artificial islands* on the sea.
Posted by: Halozcel | March 4, 2009 3:12 PM
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WaPo's On Faith latest's question: "In tough times, do those of us who handled our finances responsibly have a moral obligation to bail out those of us who didn't? Are we our brother's keeper economically?"
CCNL,
You got any Five-Step Programme on basics of economics and finance for the benefit of some among the On Faith "majority" before posting or after posting thoughts on it and social responsibility?
Obviously, Dr. Reem Asaad knows more about economics and finance, how to use that to get what she and other Saudi women wants for themselves on one particular issue -women's underwear sold by men.
Socio-economic pressure for socio-economic-political-religious-cultural reform. The "socio" is women as a social group. The "economic" is their purchasing power and choice to get their underwear wherever and however they wanted.
The socio-economic-political-religious-cultural reform for Saudi women against the ingrained sexism of some men in the religious establishment, in businesses, in governance on women's rights, standing, role and wider participation on the public sphere.
Rana Jad - "Girls don't feel very comfortable when males are selling them lingerie, telling them what size is for them . . . He's totally checking the girls out! It's just not appropriate, especially here in our culture."
You go, sister. Remind those leery and lecherous blokes that they are to lower their eyes when speaking with women out of respect for women. If they don't want to be culturally and religiously traditional, but still want to sell women's underwear to women, have women only women clothing and underwear businesses owned and staffed by women. Why not? There are women only hairdressers and beauty parlour for starters.
Gender segregation all the way. Or none at all. And not when it suits men better and best.
Cheers and out of here.
J
Posted by: Jihadist | March 4, 2009 2:49 PM
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Hmmm, the Reality Challenged, Obfuscating and Long-time "Crossanist" noted:
"It's the twenty-first century. Get over it and join the rational, the logical, the reasoned. "
She should have said:
"It is the 21st Century!!!
Muslims, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus and Pagans, it is time to give up on your hallucination-based religions, your "pretty/ugly wingy thingies, spells, A&E/Moses/Abraham/Noah, flying chariots, 24/7 blood sacrifices, castes, resurrecting bodies, worship/reverence of cows, reincarnations and atonement theology thereby joining the rational, the logical, the reasoned."
But again, maybe that is what The Jihadist was really trying to say all along!!!
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | March 3, 2009 5:34 PM
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"Islam and the West", or rather, a "gripe" of a Muslim with some Christians:
What in the world does this mean:
"Love the sinner, hate the sin"
- Love the griper, hate the gripes?
- Love the domestic abuser, hate the domestic abuse?
- Love the murderer, hate the murder?
- Love the racist, hate the racism?
- Love the genocider, hate the genocide?
Surely some Christians are not saying they love Pol Pot, but hate his genocide?
For those living in the most advanced, educated, progressive, liberal nation in the world and with gripes on primitive and barbaric and uncivilised religionists not of their own faith group -
Get over God making man in His image. That God has a Son. That man is born in sin. That someone died for our sins. That we seek our salvation through just one fellow only.
It's the twenty-first century. Get over it and join the rational, the logical, the reasoned.
Posted by: Jihadist | March 3, 2009 5:05 PM
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Islam and the West
Or rather, Muslims and "westerners" - of the Judeo-Christian ilk
"My gripes with Islam:"
- My gripes are only with some Christians, not Christianity.
"Exagerated masculine machismo;"
- Exggerated masculine machismo can be found in many Hollywood cowboy movies Rambos, Ironmans, Supermans, Marlboro Man et al too and exported over the world.
"Sexual hang-ups, prudery, and repression"
- The Orientalist paintings and writings give a different picture of Muslim men and harems.
"Racism against non-Islamic "infidels."
- Racism happens within Christians of different ethnic groups, or different skin colours in the Americas, in Australia, in Africa.
Posted by: Jihadist | March 3, 2009 4:52 PM
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Ah, the On Faith "majority"!
An excerpt on "Islam and the West" from Willis E Elliot's thread by a sage, liberal and progressive Christian -
"When you are born female in an Islamic society, you are born into a permanent state of life-long subordination and inferiority. You don't need to know anything about the Koran, nor any Islamic laws of marriage to "get it." And you don't need to know much about anything else in this case of the "Buffalo Behading" to realize that it is associated, somehow, with Islam."
"Headless Body in Topless Bar!" - New York Post
That must be done by a Muslim.
- A little knowledge and much assumption is a dangerous thing. How to explain Southeast Asians not having a tradition of "honour killings" and beheadings as method of choice in extreme domestic violence? No one has to "get it" that sexism is overt in developing countries, and covert in developed countries.
"Part of democracy means equal rights for ALL. As long as Islmaic countries seek to oppress 50% of their population, they will ALWAYS ALWAYS be behind non-Islamic societies, and they will never catch up. The subjugaiton and subordination of women is a perpetual drag and the source of poverty and want. No need to blame the West or to be jealous of the West for a practice which is self-imposed and self-destrucdtive."
- How to explain the poverty in non-Muslim third world states even without, perceived subjugation and domination of women? Or domestic violence and murder. It must have been their lack of access to education, jobs etc. Or political and economic mismanagement etc. Perhaps instances of South African men with HIV/AIDS raping female infants under the age of one year old because they believe it will cure them of HIV/AIDS is due to warped beliefs, or urban legengs, or local customs, or ingrained cultural norms which has nothing to do with Christianity and sexism towards women.
Posted by: Jihadist | March 3, 2009 12:13 PM
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Apparently, the 24/7 atrocities committed following koranic passages are not reported in Malaysia.
And again, the Reality Challenged and Obfuscating Jihadist fails to address the Five Easy Steps to alleviate 1400 years of brainwashing that she carries 24/7.
And a "Wake Up Call for Christianity" as a title for a commentary would be odd according to said Jihadist? Not really!!! Said wake up calls have been going on for the last 200 years of NT studies with said results culminating in the work of NT exegetes such as Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen.
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | March 3, 2009 12:13 PM
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CCNL : " The Reality Challenged, Obfuscating and Now Long Time "Crossanist" fails again to address the simple Five Steps to Deprogram/Deflaw Islam."
I'd want to deflaw WaPo editors first. Wajahat Ali wrote a piece on domestic violence entitled, "Beheading a Wake-up Call for American Muslims" and a WaPo editor titled it, "A Wake Up Call for Islam". For folks "managing" a blog entitled "On Faith", not making seeing any difference between Islam (a faith) and Muslims (its adherents) is telling. A Wake Up Call to Hinduism, or Buddhism or Christianity would sound really odd.
CCNL : "The 24/7 atrocities committed because of the dictates of this book is a 24/7 reminder of how bad this book is."
Pray, what are the reasons given for non-Muslims committing atrocities, genocides, domestic violence, murders and such in spite of their tenets said to be pacifist, are against harming all life etc? Human nature? Impulse control problem? Insanity? Atheists, while easily saying to the effect that religions cause "madness" and believers are "mad" never explain the cause of crimes in Scandinavia, including rapes and domestic violence.
Your RCC pastor may have said Crossan's books should be banned, but he certainly would never consider Salman Rushdie's one particular book should. I'm sure my neighbourhood imam would love books by JD Crossan just as he hated that one book by Salman Rushdie. So much for some books "should be banned" or banned outright for "offending".
Is "Uncle Tom's Cabin" offensive? Even some of Enid Blyton's children's books considered offensive, and Agatha Christie's "Ten Little N******" got its title changed to "Ten Little Indians". I wonder if American Indians and the Indian subcontinent Indians consider that new title offensive.
Posted by: Jihadist | March 3, 2009 11:41 AM
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Well, well, well, The Reality Challenged, Obfuscating and Now Long Time "Crossanist" fails again to address the simple Five Steps to Deprogram/Deflaw Islam. If she did accept these Five Steps, she would immediately become a member of the Reality and Truth team making the world a much better place. But alas, she remains mired in her Breeding, Birthing and Brainwashing in a hallucination-based religion whose "good" book is the worst book ever written. The 24/7 atrocities committed because of the dictates of this book is a 24/7 reminder of how bad this book is.
P.S. To my knowledge, Professor Crossan left the priesthood (as many have in the recent past) with permission of his order. He remains a Catholic but I doubt the Vatican will ever invite him for lunch or dinner or even a visit. My RCC pastor says his books should be banned. So much for enlightened thinking in my parish :))
See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dominic_Crossan for added information about his life and his
books.
http://www.johndominiccrossan.com/
http://www.westarinstitute.org/Periodicals/4R_Articles/crossan_bio.html
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | March 3, 2009 12:30 AM
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CCNL : "Again, considering the Jihadist is a follower of the worst book ever written being a SOP for Islamic terrorists, one must suspect all followers of said koran."
Surely one obviously see that the CCNL hawked Five Step Programme has not prevented its advocates from having such logical deductions and rational reasonings as the above?
Refresher on reason and logic 101:
a = b = c, therefore a = c.
Logical.
"I like chicken, chicken like chicken feed, therefore I like chicken feed".
- Logical, but not sound.
"I like chicken, chicken like chicken feed, therefore I like chicken.
- Logical and sound. Sort of.
"All cucumbers are vegetables. But not all vegetables are cucumbers".
- Logical and sound.
And now to analogy:
"All terrorists are Muslims".
- Where does that leave the non-Muslim terrorists such as Tamil Tigers, Basque seperatists, IRA etc.
"But not all Muslims are terrorists".
- That would include non-Muslim terrorists such as Tamil Tigers, Basque seperatists, IRA etc.
End of my 101 refresher on, er, reason and logic and anology.
Bottom line - Logic and reason as such, is over-rated. No?
Posted by: Jihadist | March 2, 2009 5:58 PM
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CCNL : "And please note Professor Crossan has not been excommunicated by the RCC."
My bad. He left voluntarily and got married too if I recall correctly.
If JD Crossan had been excommunicated by the RCC, his books sales would hit the roof, no? And perhaps get National Book Awards and the Pulitzer prizes too perhaps.
Posted by: Jihadist | March 2, 2009 5:36 PM
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Ah, as predictable and as reliable as always with CCNL reposting those "verses" summarising the sum of western fear, loathing and bigotry through the ages on Islam, Muslims and the Prophet just I wanted CCNL to do so my fellow Muslims can see that.
Even Salman Rushdie, the neo-Western man and champion of western culture and defender of western civilisation, used "Mahound" picked from rabid Christian haters of the Prophet of centuries past as a slur, an insult.
Muslim belief on Jesus PBUH and his teachings' predates those "research" and "scholarship" by Jesus Seminarians, including JD Crossan by centuries, and including on sin and salvation. CCNL is more "Islamic" that CCNL would care or dare to admit on God and Jesus PBUH, but afraid of mainstream Christians calling CCNL "heretical" one suppose.
Posted by: Jihadist | March 2, 2009 5:32 PM
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And again we see that the Jihadist remains Reality Challenged and Obfuscating although she is now partially "Crossanized" since Islam's views about Jesus, the simple preacher man, agree fairly closely with those of Professor JD Crossan, an On Faith panelist.
And note again how said Jihadist refuses to even entertain the idea of the Five Steps to Deprogram/Deflaw Islam. How sad!!
And please note Professor Crossan has not been excommunicated by the RCC.
And we again end with some reality rhyme about Islam:
O Islam, Islam, violent Islam,
Moha, illiterate and hallucinating,
O Islam, Islam, violent Islam,
Moha greed and lustful, womanizing,
Was he too.
O Islam, O Islam, violent Islam,
Moha, warmongering and hateful,
Was he too.
O Islam, O Islam, violent Islam,
Sunnis of hate, Shiites of late,
Even Pretty Wingie Thingies cannot
Save us from O Islam's hate.
Save us from these Islamic FEMs,
Flaws, Errors, Muck and Stench,
They ooze from the rocks of earth,
Like worms of death and wrench.
Born, Bred, and Brainwashed too,
Whatever, whatever to do?
Truth, Truth, History and Truth,
Let it Ring True, Freedom, Freedom
Freedom at Last and much left to do!!!
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | March 2, 2009 4:06 PM
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CCNL : "Hmmm, starting small? Why? Let us "go for the gold" by achieving the ultimate, the Deprograming and Deflawing of Islam and the Other Major Religions"
- The universe started "small" from the Singularity by your own constant references to that and Gib Gnab, no?
- Societies are created by a common languages and evolved common cultures and values. Even in secular ones such as America and Sweden.
- Societies that stagnated are poor and/or isolated societies. See the indigenous sub-societies in all countries, especially in the developing world. Even in Australia and America.
- Societies that stagnated are also oppressed by entrenched political and/or religious establishments.
On religion, this you know as a former Catholic and knowing the Vatican which ignored the works of the Jesus Seminarians and excommunicated JD Crossan etc.
God will not change the fate of a people unless they changed it themselves. Only problem is, people want to, but some governments won't for their self-interest and self-survival couched as "national interest" and "greater public good".
Or as "defenders" of American values and "way of life". Or as "protectors" "defenders" of the faith and the faithful.
These are obvious.
Cheers and out.
J
Posted by: Jihadist | March 2, 2009 12:52 PM
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Dr. Reem M Asaad,
As for Concerned The Christian Now Liberated (CCNL), this poster is prone to get most "excited" on Islam and Muslims and have been known to "drive" on some, er, "hostile and offensive" comments by some reader-posters on Islam and Muslims.
Many have already countered his lists, but he doth keep posting his lists for those "eyes which have not seen them". It is the state of the unconscious bigotry of some atheists who regard CCNL as a frontliner against beliefs and believers and in "being right behind him" that says more for those folks than CCNL.
After all, CCNL did constantly post "verses" on Islam and Muslims which perfectly captures and summmarize western Christian thought on Islam and the Prophet through the centuries, including calling the Prophet "Mahound".
The Qur'an may have verses stating Muslims are to respect others' faith and belief -"To you your belief, and to me, mine". Certainly non-Muslim folks have no such injuctions in their belief, and of course, one cannot apply one's tenets to them.
Of course, they are free to spread their religious belief by force or persuasion, secular humanism by ridiculing other values as lesser, freedom of thought and expression by occupation to liberate the oppressed and the suppressed.
After all, they recognise themself the most civilised, advanced, educated, evolved folks on earth in the history of human civilisation as we know it.
We must indulge and humour them on their notions, the one and only which is best for everyone in the world, including Burmese, Chinese, Cubans, Vietnamese, North Koreans too. For they are never in error and knows best for us. They are also never mistaken and make no mistakes too.
After all, whatever they have done in history, are doing and is going to do is best for all mankind for peace, love, understanding and mutual respect among men.
I pick all these notions up from "western" reader-posters in On Faith threads, both atheists and non-Muslim believers :)
Cheers
J
Posted by: Jihadist | March 2, 2009 12:34 PM
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Dr. Reem M. Assad,
You don't come by here often do you? Every opinion by On Faith panelists do attract hostile and offensive remarks by readers. It goes essentially like this:
- Atheists seem to want to rile up every faith group to the "truth" and all believers are bonkers. Every faith group seem to be irritated by atheists as if only they know the "truth" and are not bonkers too.
- When non-Muslim believing readers had their faith and belief the object of hostile and offensive remarks by atheists calling their belief and believers irrational, delusional, and just plain mad or moronic, they get really riled up and made a comparative study of how and why their faith and belief is less primitive, less violent, more civilised, more rational, more reasonable than Islam and Muslims.
- When it comes to Islam and Muslims being the issue discussed, non-Muslim believers happily joined in with atheists in calling Islam and Muslims irrational and such.
Certainly both non-Muslim believers and atheists do go back to the Prophet when Islam is discussed. It is a force of habit imbued by centuries of studied, er, vilifications, by various churches of the Prophet and now absorbed by western athiests.
Asian atheists of non Judeo-Christian heritage, especially in East Asia, are not and don't do that. But of course, once some are converted to Christianity, the notions of the church on the Prophet is imbued in them.
Don't worry about it. Mormons, Pagans, Catholics get a lot of flak from the "majority" in On Faith. Not just Muslims.
Cheers
J
Posted by: Jihadist | March 2, 2009 12:02 PM
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Hmmm, starting small? Why? Let us "go for the gold" by achieving the ultimate, the Deprograming and Deflawing of Islam and the Other Major Religions:
e.g. (for those eyes that have not seen)
The Five Step Program for Deprograming and Deflawing Islam
Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point-- In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.
"1. Belief in Allah"
"aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added to your cleansing neurons.
"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."
Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gib Gnab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "creationist".
"3. To believe in the existence of angels."
A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.
"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."
Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels/"pwtfft"s to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.
Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.
Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.
"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."
Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for non-believers.
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | March 2, 2009 11:52 AM
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Dr. Reem M. Asaad,
Thank you for your post.
What happens in Saudi Arabia, both large and small on Islam and Muslims there, especially female Muslims, and what it means for us Muslims in the wider Muslim world, especially Muslim women matters. I understand your that the issue of lingerie is not a matter that is at the top of corrective items on the agenda. It is symptomatic of how far men will go into that most private aspect on women, i.e. women's clothes and underwear and who should or should not sell them to women. I agree with your contention to start small. The 2006 ordinance is step in the right direction and no women has to resort to "alternative buying channels" as if lingerie are black market items.
The story is a manifestation of socio-political issues that is before us, not only in the Kingdom, but the wider Muslim world where the ulema and government seemingly act in tandem to perpetuate control over women. I recognise too well what is happening in Saudi Arabia with similar instances in Malaysia when the National Fatwa Council some months back seek to define women who wears jeans and T-shirts and acts somewhat in a rather unfeminine manner as leading towards lesbianism or are possible lesbians. The fatwa was rolled back only because Muslim women sees it as policing women by what they wear and are guilty by virtue of the clothes they wear and being of certain types in what they wear. This is only possible only because there are democratic elections and relatively free and open discussions on issues.
I respect and support the quest of Saudi women to do what they must and can within the context of their society. But as Saudi Arabia projects itself as a leader in the Muslim world, there are Malaysian Muslims who consider what is done in Saudi Arabia on Islam, in the name of Islam should be emulated. After all, the perception is that, since Saudi Arabia is the birthplace of the Prophet PBUH, and God send the Book of Guidance through the Prophet in the Arabic language, Saudi Arabians must know Islam better than anyone. It infuriates me when Malaysian Muslims stated as it was done in Saudi Arabia, then we should do it.
Constructive correction by ordinances or laws only goes so far. Traditional cultural norms are harder to overcome, including sexism. That is revolting, and worth revolting but in ways that does not mean taking to the streets to burn bras. This you already know. One is not into rights and protection of Muslim women not because one's family, one's husband is rich and can afford one's trips for shopping overseas. One is into it because the less fortunate women in income, in education, in job opportunities are the most vulnerable group. Many have to work to supplement income for their families. They need education and skills for that. They need governments which recognise that and to open up jobs for them.
Best regards
J
Posted by: Jihadist | March 2, 2009 11:32 AM
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Dr. Asaad,
You noted: "In Islam, we are forbidden from attacking or offending other religions, faiths or prophets out of respectance and humility."
Give us a break!!!!
Reality 101--
Recent Body Count:
1a) 179 killed in Mumbai/Bombay, 290 injured
1b) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh
2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured
3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, US Troops, 3,402 combat and 822 non-combat) and 90,253 – 98,521I raqi civilians killed, http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ and
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf
4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]
5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.
6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.
7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.
8) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.
And please note below the excerpts from Ayaan Hirsi Ali's biography--
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | March 1, 2009 11:44 PM
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Dear Dr Asaad Thanks so much for thoughtful comments!DB
Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2009 7:45 PM
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First, thanks to Dr. Brumberg for picking up the story and elaborating from a different perspective.
As the campaign leader, clearly this matter is not our top corrective item on the agenda. It is however, one step forward aiming at the enlightment and economic empowerment of women in Saudi Arabia (start small).
Triggered by incidents of inconvenience in male-staffed lingerie stores, the matter has become a nuissance. We -the capable women- started looking for alternative buying channels, which implies financial loss for the local industry.
Now, Dr. Brumberg used the story as an inspiration for other socio-political issues in the Kingdom. True, we do have worries and concerns, but that does not imply that we as women are unbearably oppressed, or that we should give up. In fact, we still are luckier than many women in other countries, and for that we are appreciative and thankful; it is because of that we believe in construtive correction, rather than destructive revolt.
Finally, I wish that Dr. Brumberg's opinion did not attract hostile and offensive remarks by readers, who seem to have taken one more opportunity to attack the Islamic faith and its reverred prophet "Muhammad".
Guys, let's keep it professional and friendly.
In Islam, we are forbidden from attacking or offending other religions, faiths or prophets out of respectance and humility.
There is a clear distinction between criticism and offense. The latter only provokes hostility and hate.
Thank you
Posted by: Reem M. Asaad | March 1, 2009 6:40 PM
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Hmmm, and now the errors of Mr. Elliott are used to distract us from the errors and flaws of Islam:
A synopsis of these Islamic errors and flaws for those eyes that have not seen:
Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/ plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels"/"pretty thingies" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.
This agenda continues as shown by the massacre in Mumbai, the assassinations of Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.
And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.
Current crises:
The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder.
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | March 1, 2009 11:35 AM
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For CCNL, my fave statsman, listman, who urged me to go for revisions and editions -
Bottom line:
Western-based non-Muslim, former Muslim armchair critics, "reformists" of Islam and "crushers" of Islam "have no fear".
Third world Muslim on the ground activists in the face of everyday oppression, suppression, objections are fearless.
-------------------------------------------------
For Anonymous,
The "House of Saud" sounds like a fashion house. It is, in its own fashion, fashioning designer reasons for its coutured and trademarked belief exported elsewhere in the world. We can call it radical-extremist chic. Lingerie for women are a mark of male oppression.
Muslim women of the world unite!
Don't buy and wear underwear and be liberated!
Posted by: Jihadist | March 1, 2009 10:52 AM
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I went back to see what is written for and read by the CCNL On Faith "majority" and saw this, which the panelist said, it "pains" him to quote. Ahem.
Willis E Elliot : "I'll cite only one reference in the Islamic holy book, the Qur'an: "smite their necks...slaughter...." (2.47.4 "Muhammad")".
That was quoted as reason and licence as why Muslims are into beheadings by Mr. Elliot. It is actually a passage of Surah 47.4, not 2.47.4. The whole Surah was a narrative on the nascent Muslim community on how they deal with their persecuting "pagan" or Unbeliever enemies of Mecca intent of annihilating them as a group.
Surah 47: 1 - 4:
1. Those who reject God and hinder men from the Path of God, their deeds will God render astray from their mark.
2. But those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and believe in the Revelation send down to Muhammad, for it is the truth from their Lord. He will remove from them their ills and improve their condition.
3. This because those who reject God follow vanities, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord, thus does Lord set forth for men their lessons by similitudes.
4. Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers in fight, smite at their necks, at length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly on them, thereafter is the time for either generousity or ransom, until the war lays down its burden. Thus ye are commanded, but it has been God's Will, He could certainly extracted retributions from them Himself, but he lets you fight in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slained in the Way of God, He will never let their deeds be lost.
Mr. Willis Elliot took a narrative on resolve of will towards self-defence and self-survival including tactics used by the nascent Meccan Muslim community led by the Prophet to be the reason for beheadings in domestic violence. If they had guns in those days, they would be shooting instead of smiting on necks. Mr. Elliot reads the Other Holy Book in his own particular way to reaffirm why he is a Christian. That is understandable. He is an evangelical after all. I would not want him to explain Levictus, on Jesus and Christ. It is his faith after all. He can believe them any way he choses as long as he don't preach Christianity is "Love" and "Compassion" and ignored all those real hatred and violence in the Bible, in history, and now among and by Christians in spite of what Jesus PBUH taught.
Posted by: Jihadist | March 1, 2009 10:39 AM
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And still The Jihadist continues to exhibit fear from Islamic imams and goon squads as her excuses for not joining the majority of the On Faith fall on deaf ears considering the past activities of Islamic terrorists who come after any easy target. What an inane religion that instills such fear in its members!!!!!!
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | February 28, 2009 2:43 PM
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CCNL : "The quick apology by The Jihadist to the Saudi's proves the fear aspect of her life and the idiocy of the "worst book ever written".
One must acknowledge the good with the bad and the ugly in man and socities, in laws and norms. I am thinking of my Saudi sisters and their quests for their rights. One tend to forget that in many Muslim societies, women got educated because their fathers let them.
Poor Muslim men in poor developing countries who send their daughters to school should be credited. Advances in women's right are only possible when men comes around and supported them, especially those in government and the ulema.
One also tend to forget that Muslim men are also victims of Muslim governments' oppression by laws and by governance and the Shariah as state laws such as in Iran and Saudi Arabia. Men are opppressed too, politically, economically and socially, but obviously to a much lesser degree than women.
Bottom line:
Armchair critics "have no fear".
On the ground activists are fearless.
On the ground activists are better versed on ground realities, more connected to their "clients", more informed on their opponents, know what the the real challenges are and how to overcome them. On the ground activists gets more done in spite of daily challenges, oppositions and setbacks. They are the bold, the brave and the true heroes for the promotion of, advancement for, and assurances of the the rights of women.
"Signing out" and cheers.
Posted by: Jihadist | February 28, 2009 1:09 PM
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CCNL : "Hmmm, well Gabriel's Islamic farting rules are there for any Muslim who "busts one" before he/she is able to find a well-ventilated palace."
Very funny. Muslims bent down when they pray as a community. So, it is rude to fart with people around and especially behind, having to put up with that stinker. Hence, that particular "ruling", quite considerate actually, thought up against farting.
Jon Meacham and Sally Quinn, as far as I know, are not card carrying members of the so-called "Islamic truth squards". Contrary to Susan Jacoby's reasons and advocacy for registeration to improve content of discussions and civility among poster-readers, which I disagreed with her in her own threads before at least one, it never got better in form nor in content as manifested in own threads post-registeration.
I respect Georgetown On Faith blog panelists such as Berlinerlau and Brumberg, bona fide scholars slumming here on matters that interest me - Islam and the West, Religion and Politics. Their books also help "enlighten" me on the areas they wrote. And Katherine Marshall did real work and has real experience in the field on issues she wrote on. She is a real do-gooder and I say that as a compliment. I have heard her spoke before in a conference.
And who could not love Berlinerblau and Brumberg, Jewish atheists attached to Georgetown University? The Catholic university which is the fictional site for William Peter Blatty's "The Exorcist", and the Catholic church allegedly the perpetrator and perpetuator of anti-semiticism in the west?
Good thing I never registered as it would tempt me to use all my free time to respond to everything On Faith panelists and reader-posters wrote which I don't agree with, and more it seems now, even on other faiths and atheism and issues related to them. And I have got the gist of core arguments which is constant but stated in variations of the same:
- There is a difference between what is believed and what is practiced.
- There is no difference in what is believed and practiced.
- There will be a difference if there is no belief.
- Belief makes no difference in how one is, regard others and the world.
- Belief makes a difference for one, others and the world.
Posted by: Jihadist | February 28, 2009 12:42 PM
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The Saudi ruling family is now and has always been a corrupt joke living in splendor, laughing during interviews at the vile anti-Semitic garbage that is part and parcel of their educational "curriculum." Their Salafic, Wahabi Islam is meant to distract the poor, which it does brilliantly, at the same time instilling in them an ethic of violence not merely directed against women and Jews. Since the "House of Saud," may they rot in hell, would prefer that other nations endure the terror that their pernicious education would visit upon their own land, they have done their utmost to export it. Nevertheless, the chickens are home at the roost, and there is terrorism in Saudi Arabia.
The wealthy among the Saudi purchase the most elegant, expensive designer clothing available from the West, wearing it at home, to parties held indoors, etc.Since the "House of Saud," may they rot in hell, would prefer that other nations endure the terror that their pernicious education would visit upon their own land, they have done their utmost to export it. Nevertheless, the chickens are home at the roost, and there is terrorism in Saudi Arabia.
The wealthy among the Saudi purchase the most elegant, expensive designer clothing available from the West, wearing it at home, to parties held indoors, etc.
Posted by: Anonymous | February 28, 2009 12:34 PM
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The quick apology by The Jihadist to the Saudi's proves the fear aspect of her life and the idiocy of the "worst book ever written".
We have no such fear:
From Ayaan Hirsi Ali's biography, Infidel"
p. 47 paperback issue:
"Some of the Saudi women in our neighborhood were regularly beaten by their husbands. You could hear them at night. Their screams resounded across the courtyards. "No! Please! By Allah!"
And from Pravda:
"The missionary position is considered the only decent sexual position in Christianity. Quran does not prohibit any positions in sex: “Your wives are your field. You may walk on that field as you like,” the book says.
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | February 28, 2009 12:08 PM
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That was a wee harsh on Saudi Arabia on their version of Islam on rights of women. But one has to give them credit for their "Right Way", "Straight Path" on science and technology. No fatwas against stem cell research or to reach for the stars and accept the universe as to the way it is formed.
No fatwas against evolution. No fatwas against abortion as being sinful. The Saudis ulema did allow for the doctors to determine on that at least. Only God knows if some member of the Saudi ulema will do so in the near future.
It is ironic that Muslim societies takes to sciences better than to change on social issues with regard to women's rights in most cases. That is why this who can can and cannot sell underwear to women in Saudi Arabia is all the more infuriating.
To pursue the sciences to understand the presence and power of God as the truth of God, and to make life better for the community with applied sciences, but not to improve the rights of all on the core principle of justness for equity and peace among man(which also includes women).
As Muslims like to say to other Muslims when they disagree on matters related to Islam, I will say this about and to Saudi Arabia on their treatment of Muslim women, "You are mistaken". "You are in error." Nothing more damning than that on the understanding and interpretions of Islam.
Then, we will, of course, "agree to disagree" following a discourse where we both held on to our notions. I'm with and for the Saudi women who wants to drive a car, to wear or not a hijab, to buy lingerie from women if they want to.
Posted by: Jihadist | February 28, 2009 11:54 AM
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Hmmm, well Gabriel's Islamic farting rules are there for any Muslim who "busts one" before he/she is able to find a well-ventilated palace.
The following commentary by the Reality Challenged, Obfuscating and Now Partially "Crossanized" Jihadist is exactly why she is afraid of Islamic truth squads and for that reason only refuses to sign-up for the registration-required portions of On-Faith:
"But what the Saudi Royal family and their allied ulema did in the "name of Islam" and as "Guardians" of Islam's two holiest sites shows how far they have gone overboard in controlling the lives of Saudis socially and by extention, in governance, by using, Islam as counterforce towards democratisation.
There is no "justness" in what they do. The Saudis may be pious, but that is different from being devout and devoted towards Islamic principles on governance and taking actions for the greater good of society and for all. "
And The Jihadist knows full well the easy Five Steps she can take to escape from all the farting etc. rules and Saudi influence in her life.
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | February 28, 2009 11:50 AM
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Anonymous: "Frankly, I think underwear is not on the top of world-wide priorities."
I agree with you. Hundreds of millions of poor women in undeveloped, under-developed, semi-developed, developing countries (oh, why not just third world countries) either made their own underwear, or don't wear any. Sufficient food, clean food and water are greater priorities, not who has the right to sell Victoria's Secret or Truimph sports bras.
But what the Saudi Royal family and their allied ulema did in the "name of Islam" and as "Guardians" of Islam's two holiest sites shows how far they have gone overboard in controlling the lives of Saudis socially and by extention, in governance, by using, Islam as counterforce towards democratisation.
There is no "justness" in what they do. The Saudis may be pious, but that is different from being devout and devoted towards Islamic principles on governance and taking actions for the greater good of society and for all.
Some Saudis asserted that they are bearing the weight of the whole Islamic belief, traditions and civilisation. Not quite. Islamic religious thinking/theology, philosophy, the social sciences, sciences etc are largely the work of f non-Saudi Arabs and non-Arab Muslims in what is now Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Spain, India, North Africa etc.
Thank God, God created us into nations and tribes so we may know one another, and for the fact that not all Muslims are living in the Saudi Arabian nation, nor are all Muslims from and of and living in tribal societies where loyalty to the tribal/clannish interests is stronger than to universal principles and good.
God has given the honour to, and selected a Messenger from among the Saudis to sent the Book of Guidance in their own language. Don't ask how and where and why they don't grasp the messages from God, the reminders by God in making hell for women, in going to hell here on earth for their unjustness towards their society, and spitting from that hell on earth, Al Qaeda to create more hell on earth here and there.
Yes. The Saudis is held to higher standards, to their own "standards" as they projected themselves as "Leader" in the Muslim world. I use "Muslim world" because what the Saudi government does is not quite "Islamic". One can still be a Muslim even if one is not Islamic. The Saudi Royal family and their allied ulema are Muslims, not Islamists. In this case, it is can be construed as an offensive remarks, an insulting one to them.
Posted by: Jihadist | February 28, 2009 11:30 AM
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CCNL : "It was as if no aspect of human existence was to be left unregulated, free."
No white shoes after Labour Day! Bring flowers or wines for your dinner hosts! Do not belch nor burp when eating! Man is born free but everywhere he is regulated by cultural and social norms, religious diktats, secular laws and regulations and office memos. Muslims are fundamentally told to do everything in moderation, including eating and drinking. But as for sleep, I don't recall anything. Nor really on sexual positions. There is no such thing as a "missionary position" practiced by Muslims.
Gibreel did not write and compiled Suras, Sunnah and Hadiths. And Muslims, especially Southeast Asian Muslims, eat seafood, including prawns, enthusiastically and scratch all the time when they feel like it. Except during prayers. Nor do they fart around people as it is rude. Except in Hollywood comedies where farting jokes are farting jokes are, er, cool.
Thank God the way to bury a person in the Muslim world is really cheap and not an industry expensive for the love and left ones. Thank God the way a property is divided really spread the wealth around democratically among family members so that there be no partiality and no subsequent acrimonous and discord causing lawsuits of leaving it to a housekeeper or driver. Knowing beforehand how the property will be divided reduces all the false attention and faux love to be willed for the property.
The Prophet PBUH as a businessman, not a fiction writer like Salman, and by his examples and teachings for a just society for men and women and a pragmatic response to the situtions he faced in times of peace and war is the first spiritual-capitalist-democrat-universalist-politician in the world. Quite an effective combination for a mortal. And he left much for Muslims to ponder on God and life here on earth in every aspects. The classical Muslims constructed a whole legal and social rules and code of conducts based on their understanding of their times and peoples need for a civil society by "regulations" as they interpreted and formulated as Shariah - a combination of FDA like regulations, secular civil laws, Emily Post, and Paris fashion dictators.
The Shariah seriously needs relooking into, but most of the ulema won't, being ossified in mind and wrong belief that the Shariah is God's law. It is not. Even Hanbali, Maliki, Shafie and Hambali, the originators of the Four Schools of Sunni fiqh/jurisprudence stated what they did is to best of their ability and ended all their reasonings with, "God knows best." Islam will not collapse if Shariah is not instituted as state laws, as in Turkey. All Muslims agree on the Five Pillars as the fundamentals defining what is Islam and being Muslim in this most personalised of the Abrahamic faiths at the spiritual level. The rest are just commentaries and interpretations.
Posted by: Jihadist | February 28, 2009 10:50 AM
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http://www.lemondrop.com/2009/02/10/8-year-old-married-off-to-47-year-old-man/
What more is there to say?
Posted by: tbarksdl | February 28, 2009 6:06 AM
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Frankly, I think underwear is not on the top of world-wide priorities.
Posted by: Anonymous | February 27, 2009 9:34 PM
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Reminds one of Sir Salman Rushdie's satire about Mahound and Islam and all of its crazy rules as handed down by one "pretty, fictional thingie" named Gabriel: (Satanic Verses)
p. 376, paperback issue - for those 1 billion Muslims to read as they are forbidden to purchase or read said book:
an excerpt:
"The faithful lived by lawlessness, but in those years Mahound - or should one say the Archangel Gibreel? - should one say Al-Lah? - became obsessed by law.
Amid the palm-trees of the oasis Gibreel appeared to the Prophet and found himself spouting rules, rules, rules, until the faithful could scarcely bear the prospect of any more revelation, Salman said, rules about every damn thing, if a man farts let him turn his face to the wind, a rule
about which hand to use for the purpose of cleaning one's behind.
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | February 27, 2009 6:21 PM
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It was as if no aspect of human existence was to be left unregulated, free. The revelation - the recitation- told the faithful how much to eat, how deeply they should sleep, and which sexual
positions had received divine sanction, so that they leamed that sodomy and the missionary position were approved of by the archangel, whereas the forbidden postures included all those in which the female was on top.
Gibreel further listed the permitted and forbidden subjects of conversation, and earmarked the parts of the body which could not be scratched no matter how unbearably they might itch. He vetoed the consumption of prawns, those bizarre other-worldly creatures which no member of the faithful had ever seen, and required animals to be killed slowly, by bleeding, so that by experiencing their deaths to the full they
might arrive at an understanding of the meaning of their lives, for it is only at the moment of death that living creatures understand
that life has been real, and not a sort of dream.
And Gibreel the archangel specified the manner in which a man should be buried, and how his property should be divided, so that Salman the Persian got to wondering what manner of God this was that soundedso much like a businessman.
This was when he had the idea that
destroyed his faith, because he recalled that of course Mahound himself had been a businessman, and a damned successful one at that, a person to whom organization and rules came naturally, so
how excessively convenient it was that he should have come up with such a very businesslike archangel, who handed down the management decisions of this highly corporate, if noncorporeal, God."
With respect to Islamic farting:
"Farting is problematic in Islam. During prayer, a worshipper must not fart. Sahih Bukhari (1.4.137) writes that Allah will not accept a Muslim’s prayer if he/she passes wind during the ritual.
The exception occurs if the worshipper farts silently, or the fart does not smell. In such a case, he/she may continue with the prayer (ibid, 1.4.139).Sunaan Nasai (1.162) writes that if you fart during a prayer you must redo ablution. Sahih Bukhari (9.86.86) says that for a “farter” Allah will not accept his/her prayer until he/she performs another ablution."
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | February 27, 2009 6:21 PM
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And I had thought that our own fashion police on what women should, or should not wear is bad enough. It it was not true, that ordinance of 2006 in Saudi Arabia allowing women to sell women's underwear to women would be hysterical material for a comedy or satirical show.
Going by the some interesting reasonings by Salafis and Wahhabis of Saudi Arabia, underwear should be bidah (innovation) for men and women if they want to follow what people do and wear in the time of the Prophet PBUH and right after he died. Going by some of their reasoning too, a monarchy as in unelected King, and the Royal Family should be a bidah too. But then, Salafis and Wahhabis are the religious-political-social descendants of the Kharjites in some being rigid and uncompromising on their notions on Islam and what is being Muslim. To the point of some extremist Kharjites then, and now some Salafis and Wahhabis calling Muslims who don't agree with them apostates, and to call for their deaths, or to kill them themselves.
But the Kharjites of early Islam got a thing right though. They asserted that Islam after the death of the Prophet PBUH was re-infused with Arab culture, customs and traditions as well as tribalism of Arab supremacy and primacy over non-Arab Muslims. They caused enough havoc to rattle the early Muslim caliphs to accept non-Arab Muslims and non-Muslims as state administrators, writer-thinkers, scientists, social scientists, theologians etc to enable the flowering of an Islamic civilisation.
Irony of ironies on Kharjites and some of their descendants, the Salafis, Wahhabis and oh yes, the Taliban. Makes one wonder if they should regard planes, trains, ICT tools etc are bidah too, or that they are into selective categorisation of bidah as the material category (acceptable) and intellectual, social (forbidden).
There is no reason to defend as a "necessary evil" for and in an unelected form of governance. The Saudi Royal family is guilty of pandering to and accomodating the "heirs" of the Salafis and Wahhabis who help the first Saud into power as the first King and to name Saudi Arabia after their tribe/clan. It's unIslamic and I would love to hear Salafis and Wahhabis think and say otherwise on Islamic governance, leadership and public consensus on who to lead.
Oh, if they want be "modern", to have a Constitutional monarchy with democratic elections for Parliament, a prime minister and all that like the England, Denmark, Netherlands, Sweden etc. Then, they can have more rational and reasonable laws on women's rights....The Prophet PBUH would weep to see what happened and is happening in Saudi Arabia, the land of his birth, and to understand again why God chose him to be His Messenger for a society still in the Jahiliyah or neo-Jahiliyah period in spite of the Prophet's best efforts.
Posted by: Jihadist | February 27, 2009 5:41 PM
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Hmmm, The Obfuscating Jihadist says she is smart (so far) in investments but is obviously totally clueless with respect to the horrors of the "worst book ever written" aka the koran.