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Al-Qaeda's Ignorant Assault on Obama
Last week, the Deputy Leader of al-Qaeda, Ayman Al-Zawahiri, launched a verbal assault on President-elect Barack Obama. However disgusting, the attack illustrates al-Qaeda's failure to mobilize Muslims in a global jihad against the United States.
This failure stems from many things, not least of which is Zawahari's bizarre, bigoted grasp of the following religions: Christianity, Judaism and Islam. What is more, he has zero understanding of the evolution of these three faiths in American society.
Exhibit Number ONE:
"You were born to a Muslim father, but you chose to stand in the ranks of the enemies of the Muslims, and pray the prayer of the Jews, although you claim to be Christian, in order to climb the rungs of leadership in America."
What does the above depiction of our next president tell us about the world-view of Zawahari and his associates? It tells us that al-Qaeda's leaders adhere to an idea that no serious Muslim theologian would buy, i.e., that the son a Muslim father raised to be a Christian by a mother is ipso facto an "enemy" of Muslims.
Even sillier is the suggestion that it is a crime for Muslims to pray with Jews. The anti-Semitic underpinnings of this assertion--underscored in Al-Qaeda's images of a Yarmulke-clad Obama praying with white bearded Orthodox Jews!--are rejected by the vast majority of American Muslims and the organizations that represent them.
Exhibit Number TWO:
"As for Malik al-Shabazz (Malcolm X)... he condemned the crimes of the Crusader West against the weak and oppressed...That's why....Malik al-Shabazz...was killed."
This remark flips history on its head. Malcolm X spoke out fearlessly and aggressively against the repression of African Americans. But after he made his pilgrimage to Mecca, he repudiated the hate language of the Nation of Islam, embracing instead Islam's more universal values. It was for this crime that he was murdered.
The great tragedy of Malcolm X was that he was gunned down before he could complete his journey to a new vision of coexistence. If he were alive today, my guess is that he would find in Barack Obama's life (and election) a symbol of hope.
We do not have to idealize our president-elect to appreciate that he represents a vision of inter-racial solidarity and inter-faith understanding that the likes of Zawahari cannot possibly grasp- but which Zawahari must insult as al-Qaeda gasps for breath.
By Daniel Brumberg |
November 24, 2008; 3:24 PM ET
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Posted by: Anonymous | December 2, 2008 9:28 PM
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Jihadist:
Re: Brooklyn and 9/11
The Hudson borders Brooklyn and is visible from any number of locations, especially the Promenade on which file folders, paper, etc. floated away. They showed the Hudson on TV, which is how I know. On 9/11, all the way from downtown Brooklyn passed Prospect Park, people were wearing masks, including the police. I know about the masks from my brother-in-law. People in Manhattan, of course, were also wearing them. I don't know too much about the other boroughs.
Fire fighters, ambulances, police, etc., were coming to Manhattan through Brooklyn, Bronx, etc. Emergency workers were coming from everywhere, through everywhere, not only from the five boroughs but from upstate New York, Long Island, New Jersey, the entire northeast, the rest of the country.
I thank whatever gods may be that my son had a cold that day and we kept him home. For people like Farnaz, it was very difficult.
For me, getting home from work was impossible, and I had a heck of a time getting in touch with my wife, but I did reach her. If I had to drive around looking for my boy, only to keep getting turned back, I would have lost what little sanity I had left.
Observer12
Posted by: Anonymous | December 1, 2008 11:38 PM
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test
Posted by: Anonymous | December 1, 2008 11:26 PM
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The Reality Challenged and Obfuscating Jihadist still does not recognize the problem!!! How sad to be so brainwashed!!!
The foundation of Islamic terror is the warmongering, global Islamic dominance and hate/death to all infidels' passages in the Worst Book Ever Written i.e. her koran.
Until this SOP of terror and death is cleaned up, the blood-letting will never end!!!!
To wit:
1a) 179 killed in Mumbai/Bombay, 290 injured
1b) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh
2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured
3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, US Troops 3,394 combat and 815 non-combat) and 89,544 – 97,762
Iraqi civilians killed, http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ and
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf
4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]
5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.
6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.
7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.
8) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | December 1, 2008 3:16 PM
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Who to blame?
The question remains – who are we really fighting against? I should hope it would be against those extremists and fanatics of all races and creeds who want to continue old or to create new discords and wage wars on grounds of race and religion, rights and self-determination, on group and state security against all those seem as depriving and marginalizing them. And absolutely no compunction in resorting to killing.
No doubt, racial and religious hatred is personal to holder. It only take a death of a fellow co-religionist (religious group identification) or a fellow co-ethnic group (racial group identification), or a fellow citizen (national group identification) to be cause for revenge and punitive action. The “justness” of this is a whole different debate and both sides in the conflict will insist that their cause is “just”.
There is no doubt that governments in developing countries can’t contain separatists, racial and religious minorities or political groups resorting to arms and acts of terrorism in their midst. It is easier to undertake a military/police “shoot them ups” without addressing causes, be it intel failure or causes of rage, anger and hatred - always discrimination and marginalization and suppression due to race and religion. Oh, yes, politics 101 too – who gets what, when and how, not to mention why and at whose expense that is disputed and cause of conflicts. No, we are not going into here that oft repeated phrase – one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter. That is another debate for when terrorists won the fight for their "cause", they seem to be redefined as freedom fighters in history books.
Mahatma Gandhi : “An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind”.
Obviously blind to reason, blind in anger, blind in hatred, blind to the forest as a whole in not looking for the right trees that poisoned the forest, but to burn the whole forest in a blinded by rage slash and burn of trees and trees and killing the whole forest. Or, all least, a particular specie of trees. Noxious weeds are everywhere to be uprooted. Especially in our own respective backyards.
J
Posted by: Jihadist | December 1, 2008 3:08 PM
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Farnaz : : “None of this excuses "Islamists" or whatever you'd like to call them from targeting Jews all over the world as they have continually done, a point you conveniently ignore. “
Did anyone excused the terrorists from targeting Jews and non-Jews for their attacks except the terrorists groups themselves in this Mumbai attacks? It irritates me to no end that developing countries' governments seem to let their citizens die by terrorist acts and slow to get the perpetrators, but only acted when foreign governments, whose citizens died in the terrorists attacks, pressured them to do something to hunt and bring the perpetrators to justice. A case point is the Bali bombings by Jemaah Islamiyah.
Oh yes, just as some Jews are thinking of possible revenge as a legitimate response, there are some Muslims justifying the acts as legitimate cause. Blaming “Islamists” or all Muslims is carpet bombing. Blaming whomever actually planned and executed these acts of terrorism is smart targeting. Go get them.
It would seem that whomever planned and executed this latest acts of terrorism ion Mumbai knows the psyche of those they chose to target to perpetuate discords. Do we really want it to go on, this tit for tat? Already, I am hearing of Hindu-Jews vs Muslims posited by some. One tend to forget that the Jewish community in India, some 5,000, traditionally lived in Muslim areas. Looks like imported or exported hatred is working as some desired in line with their ends to ensure chasms, to widen chasms and to perpetuate the clash of civilizations.
Another rupture caused to hasten the End of Days, or World War III, as some speculated, or believed, or hoped for by some?
J
Posted by: Jihadist | December 1, 2008 2:58 PM
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On 9 /11, Bali Bombings and Mumbai attacks
Farnaz, I had thought that you lived in Brooklyn. If you have lived in lower Manhattan before and during 9/11 and moved to Brooklyn subsequently, I am not aware.
The obvious and simple point on 9/11 being - people of many creeds, colours and from other nations also died there. The obvious and simple point being -it is all us who are victims and affected by it in one way or another by acts of terrorism. No one is untouched by acts of terrorism and its consequences - as victims, as families, friends and colleagues of victims, as those paying for collective "retributions" as members of the same religious or racial group as the perpetrators of the acts of terrorism?
Does the thinking that all Islamists/Muslims are to be held responsible and accountable going to be productive and positive in getting Muslims who also experienced terrorism in their own lands, to cooperate to flush out terrorists? As I have stated before - who are we really against? All of them because "they all the same"? Or those who actually resort to terrorism?
J
Posted by: Jihadist | December 1, 2008 2:38 PM
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Anti-Semiticism by Non-Semitics subsume Racism of Semitics towards others?
The intellectual reasonings and set definition on anti-Semiticism as racism emanates from the west. And then, there are "Semitics", or rather, Israelis of such education and rank as Naftali Tamir, a former Israeli Ambassador to Australia, is quite capable of making "racist" remarks on Asians, and seek to distinguish Asians from the west, or "white" race.
Do we want to go into Ashkenazi Jews, a minority in Israel, dominating in government over the darker-skinned Semitics from Asia and Africa? Certainly cases such as these do not justify characterizing all Israelis as racists when some Israelis do experience discriminations due to their colour or where they came from to Israel. And quite a number of Israelis are aware of this too.
Does, "anti-semiticism", as another manifestation of racism, need more work on that term as "Anti-Jews" and "anti-Israel" are simpler and clearer in terms, but certainly not blind sentiments and as unacceptable? Unless one thinks of it in terms as being similar to being “anti-Hispanics” or “anti-Arabs” or "anti-Muslims" – diversified groups in reality in skin colour and history. Is, that is racism too?
Mahatma Gandhi : “An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.”
And all seem to only have eyes to clearly see on their own groups on what their Other did to their group, than on what is happening in their own own group.
J
Posted by: Jihadist | December 1, 2008 2:30 PM
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Farnaz, surely you do not want the death of the Rabbi be capitalised by those braying for revenge as those who murdered him and his family are capitalising on that reaction, feeding on existing mistrust and hatred by both sides? There are already too many hawks on both sides, or three, or four sides calling for blood. The doves seem stunned speechless or their voices are losts in the screams of the blood-for-blood crowd.
I am still bleary eyed, but as there are points raised by you, I’ll separate my posts them in different but linked posts.
J
Posted by: Jihadist | December 1, 2008 2:23 PM
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Russia to retrieve its status of world's strongest superpower
Posted by: Anonymous | December 1, 2008 10:35 AM
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HC is simply another addition to the Immoral Majority "team"!!!
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | December 1, 2008 7:21 AM
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I am so happy that Obama has chosen antiarab antimuslim pro Jewish Hilary as secretary of state. Lets all welcome her
Posted by: PROHILARY | December 1, 2008 12:10 AM
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Yup, only one sentence at a time- maybe I'll post it on Patel or something.
Posted by: VICTORIA | November 30, 2008 4:51 PM
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It seems I've been blocked by this moderator-or a complaint from one who doesn't like dissent maybe one sentence will get through...
Posted by: VICTORIA | November 30, 2008 4:48 PM
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Aww, give it up, Farnaz. You not the "Anonymous", Observer12 and Penman too?
Posted by: RM | November 30, 2008 1:31 PM
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New York Times says number murdered in Mumbai is now assessed at 180.
Posted by: Farnaz | November 30, 2008 1:00 PM
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Jihadist:
I'm sorry, but I don't entirely know what your point is. Of course, the term "Islamist" was used before Rushdie. The term "Christianist" was used before the twentieth century. Rushdie published an article in the New York Times to ward off wholesale condemnation of Muslims for 9/11, to offer a more precise term. Is "Islamist" perfect? No, and I doubt he would argue it was. There are Islamists who don't kill innocent people, whose "Islamism" is confined to physically nonviolent practices. If you have a better term to offer, please do so.
You do not have to tell me who was and was not killed on 9/11. My family, my neighborhood had to wear masks after the explosions whenever we went outside. I saw files, paper float out on the water. I drove like a maniac trying to get my daughter out of school, only to find myself continually turned back until it was announced on the radio that everyone in circumstances such as I should flag the police and explain our need to get through.
I lost two friends on 9/11, one a Jew, the other a Hindu. And? So? Point? Relevance?
None of this excuses "Islamists" or whatever you'd like to call them from targeting Jews all over the world as they have continually done, a point you conveniently ignore. The Jewish Center is simply the latest in endless assaults. Of course, it is not only Jews they target. One hundred fifty people were murdered in Mumbai.
You are confusing a lot of issues. Racism, as in that directed at the Jewish Center,against Jews all over the world, is racism. I'm fine with the word, not with the phenomenon, and, again this is merely the latest in an endless stream of assaults by "Islamists" against us.
Available on the web--Three commissioned reports on antisemitism: one commissioned by George Bush, one by Tony Blair, one by the UN.
If you can't google them, I'll post the links.
Posted by: Farnaz | November 30, 2008 12:17 PM
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Again most of these problems would disappear if the followers of these religions, e.g. the Reality Challenged and Obfuscating Jihadist", would simply "deflaw" their religions' histories and theologies!!!
And wow, said Jihadist does rant on about Sir Salman Rusdie's definitions but said Jihadist cannot read Rusdie's books because of some jerk of an imam/cleric and his goons threatening her life. The "significant stupidity" of Islamists, Muslims, Moslems, "Mahounders", and Islamics goes on and on!!!
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | November 30, 2008 12:54 AM
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Farnaz,
Okay, family have eaten and back, vacation's over, ready to leave for home, long flight ahead, but before I go...
As a matter of interest, what makes you think I am personally threatening "Anonymous"? Am I? Let him/her, speak for himself/herself on his/her "threat" against all "Islamists". Which ones? The terrorists who actually mayhemed and murdered in Mumbai? Or some vague notions of who is an "Islamist" as defined by himself/herself or Salman Rushdie? And thus deserve to die? So now I know, "Rushdie's argument was that Islamists should not be confused with Muslims. North America, Europe, South America, etc. accepted this." I am now curious to know Salman Rushdie's definations of greater Jihad, the lesser Jihad, a Mujahid (Mujahideen as plural) and what he thinks of the term "Jihadists" to describe all terrorists as the Economist does for one. "Jihadist" is another anglicised term to describe Muslim extremists and fanatics resorting to terrorism. Using the term "Jihadists" to describe terrorists would seem to legitimise their actions as a jihad against the evil, the corrupt they said they are opposed to.
"Islamist" and "Islamism" is Anglicised from "Islamiyya", as first used by Egyptians who applied it to groups like the Muslim Brotherhood for obvious reasons that these groups see Islam as the alternative to the corrupt governance and governments they have. "Islamist" was used before by others before Salman Rushie. Not that it made any difference for most. But terrorist is a terrorist, a fanatic is a fanatic, but a "mujahid" is trickier due to whom he is training his guns against. The Afghan Mujahideen fighting against the Soviets is fine and supported by you know who. Until they turn their guns to you know whom. The CIA calls this, "blowback".
A Malaysian woman was killed too, in the Mumbai attacks. Malaysians were killed too, during 9/11, during the Bali bombings. A friend was killed in a departmental store bombing in Jakarta some years back. As you well know, Muslims were and are killed by terrorists too. More than than anyone else, but not quite worthy of getting special coverage and focus because they are not one of us? As Bush's stated, "Either you are with us, or against us". Who are we against? All Jews? All Muslims? All Christians? All Hindus? All Sikhs? All Tamils? Or all terrorists that kill us regardless of our race, religion and politics. If "Anonymous" wants to think and act like the very people who justified and rationalised their acts terrorism, should we let him/her? I never thought I ever have to fight a battle with someone thinking like "Anonymous" in a western blog.
Bye.
J
Posted by: Jihadist | November 30, 2008 12:13 AM
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And most of these problems would disappear if the followers of these religions would simply "deflaw" their histories and theologies!!!
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | November 29, 2008 7:50 PM
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Jihadist:
Mahatma Gandhi: "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."
Yes. I can think of no better reason why you should not threaten. Right now, Jews can see. But there aren't enough of us to do so because the blind keep killing us. If you think that's not a good idea, then do what you can to stop it.
Threatening us won't do that. An eye for an eye with the dispairing Anon, won't do it, I assure you. It just keeps you blind.
Take some positive action. As a banker you are surely in a good position to do so.
Over and out.
Farnaz
Posted by: Farnaz | November 29, 2008 6:03 PM
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Hello Jihadist,
Thailand: By "uncovered" I mean banking involvement with Thaksin's thefts. Again, all this is beyond my ken. I'm not a banker. I detected no overt hostility from these young fellows toward your country. It's the theft of Thai wealth that has troubled them, the safe-keeping of Thaksin by the greedy, perhaps fearful Brits, while Thai people suffer with a sham government and no food.
"Islamist"--The term was introduced by Rushdie following 9/11 and is used here and abroad to mean Muslim extremists, racists, etc. Rushdie's argument was that Islamists should not be confused with Muslims. North America, Europe, South America, etc. accepted this.
I would imagine you don't wish to allign yourself with the murderers in Mumbai.
I wouldn't threaten. People, Jews, get tired of being threatened and harrassed after two thousand years. Here people are edgy, not only because this beautiful young couple were murdered in a racist attack, murdered in front of their son, their little boy, who was rushed out covered in blood. Innocent Americans, Indians, Canadians, Japanese, et al, were killed.
One hundred fifty people were murdered by Islamists. What possible use can threats of more harm be.
Posted by: Farnaz | November 29, 2008 5:54 PM
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Hello Farnaz,
I had thought you left On Faith.
As for your Thai friends, a lot of rumours and allegations are swirling around Bangkok, so, who knows. If your Thai friends "uncovered" some Malaysian English "connection", I only hope that it is only the fact that the British colonised Malaysian before, that Malaysia is still a member of the Commonwealth, and that many Malaysians still go to British universities. Reading Thai newspapers and blogs, including Bangkok Post and the Nation are good to know what is happening in Thailand.
We leave the Thais to sort out their own internal affairs as we have enough domestic problems of our own. They did not invite us to interfere, nor do we want to. Thailand also has a history of colonising some Malaysian states. So, perhaps, it is Malaysians not wanting to engage with the Thais. We also have a love-hate relationship with all our neighbours, like the British and French do, Americans and Canadians do perhaps.
You : "Everytime something like this happens new Jewish extremists are born in Israel. The noise here in Brooklyn, and not among the Chasidim, who are devasted suggests a limit may have been reached."
It never ends, does it? Sounds like strikes against Muslims somewhere leading other Muslims elsewhere becoming extremists and terrorists. Ah, as for Anonymous threatening all "Islamists" for what happened to the Rabbi, I am, technically, an Islamist by the fact that I am involved in Islamic banking and financial services. If Anonymous wants to "target" all Islamists and Muslims because a yet to be determined (on onjectives and origin) terrorist group murdered the Rabbi, his wife and son, he or she is no better than Muslims who want to target all Jews because Afghans, Iraqis, Lebanese, Palestinians are killed by anyone.
Mahatma Gandhi: "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." If only there are more like him here and now.
My hubby and kids wants to go out. I'm getting off here.
Regards
J
Posted by: Jihadist | November 29, 2008 5:42 PM
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last post was mine.
Farnaz
Posted by: Anonymous | November 29, 2008 4:45 PM
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Jihadist:
Re: Targeting
Targeting of Jews by Muslims has also occurred here in the US, and I mean physically. We are a patient people....But patience wears thin after two thousan years. I renew my own every day.
It is a practice I highly recommend.
Posted by: Anonymous | November 29, 2008 4:44 PM
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Jihadist, Part I
Yes, I thought it was Singapore, too. That is what everyone told me. They gave me articles. How is it now that suddenly Maylasia is implicated?
I don't understand very much about international banking, and know almost nothing of Bank Negara Malaysia, the bank named in the email I received
this morning from a very well educated Thai academic here, part of the working group I mentioned. I emailed her back, but so far I've heard nothing from her. She is in tremendous distress as you can imagine.
There are a bunch of well-educated young Thai men on the fringes of this group who are in a militant mode. I've never met Thais like them before. They were idealists, from what I understand, bitterly disappointed by Thaksin, engraged at the Brits, and angry. It is they who claim they've uncovered some Maylasian English connection.
All this is very confusing to me. My own role has been to watch the British media, which despite its initial concealment of the Thaksin problem, something that infurated the Thais here, is beginning to be more open. The refusal of mainstream American media to deal with the truth of the Thai crisis isn't making anyone happy, but at least they're covering it.
What I can understand is the greed motive of the English; what confuses is the fear. All these Thais insist the English are afraid of Thaksin, that the whole region is fearful.
In the meantime these young Thai men are waiting for access to their country. I cannot understand why they would want to engage your country. Would it not be a suicide mission? Unless they honestly believe Malaysian banking is somehow involved.
Posted by: Farnaz | November 29, 2008 4:17 PM
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Jihadist, Part II:
Two of the people in this working group are very dear to me. God knows where this will end.
On Mumbai: "Surely the Rabbi would be dismayed to know that his death is cause for, and excuse of, for others to wreak revenge in his name. If so, it would make Jews easy target in India with only an estimated 5,000 of them there if there is tit for tat killings following this."
It saddens me that you reply to Anon in this way. Jews are tired of being targets all over the world by Islamists. Jews have not gone after Muslims anywhere, in any capacity, including here, where whatever harm was done was done by Christians and Hindus.
Muslims around the world are also an easy target. I am not the targeting type. If you are, I suggest you keep it to yourself and not broadcast it as you did in what I quote above.
Muslims in Mumbai have much less to fear from Indian Jews, a very small number, than from Hindus, and not only for the slaughter of Gavriel and Rivka in front of their little boys eyes, but for the slaughter of one hundred fifty others. Hindu extremists are everywhere, and the tensions are high. Every time something like this happens new Hindu extremists are born.
Everytime something like this happens new Jewish extremists are born in Israel. The noise here in Brooklyn, and not among the Chasidim, who are devasted suggests a limit may have been reached.
No, if I were you, I wouldn't threaten. I understand you don't like Anon's post.
Yet, I have to read such things about Jews every day.
Posted by: Farnaz | November 29, 2008 4:16 PM
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Hello Farnaz,
On Mumbai -
It saddens me greatly that the terrorists targeted the Jewish centre and killed the Rabbi, his wife and son. He is a Hasidim doing humanitarian work in Mumbai.
It appalled me that "Anonymous" here should make the Rabbi as a cause to threaten "Islamists" when the Indian security forces have killed the killers, but yet to determine who is the mastermind of this horrific killing sprees in Mumbai.
Surely the Rabbi would be dismayed to know that his death is cause for, and excuse of, for others to wreak revenge in his name. If so, it would make Jews easy target in India with only an estimated 5,000 of them there if there is tit for tat killings following this.
I am dying to know who exactly masterminded this latest terrorist attacks and which group exactly in India. It would help if the Indian government do so soon - to apprehend them and take them to justice, instead dragging their foot, or fixing the blame instead of really fixing the problems, internally in India and with their neighbours.
If not, the impatient and angered ones, already having or making their own assumptions, deriving their own conclusions, which may already be there, but looking for a reason, a cause to vent, will take matters in their own hands to punish whom they deem are responsible, and would always wrong. As always happened in India's sectarian violence. As in the case of "Anonymous" here.
Regards
J
Posted by: Jihadist | November 29, 2008 4:02 PM
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Hello Farnaz,
On Thailand -
Farnaz : "Bank Malaysia has been implicated in this. Why?"
Which "Bank Malaysia"? Bank Negara Malaysia is the Central Bank of Malaysia. I would love to know which "Bank Malaysia" is implicated in Thanksin's dealings.
As far as all Thais and Southeast Asians who bothered to follow developments in Thailand knows, it was Thanksin's USD 1.88 billion dealings with Temasek Holdings, a Singapore Sovereign Wealth Fund, that is the tipping point of the anger of urban Thais against him.
Some Singaporeans putting a spin on that? They don't love Malaysia too much and always complaining Malaysia and Malaysians are "jealous" of them to all and sundry. Must be the Malaysian water they are drinking, no? Or some Thais not knowing Singapore seperated from Malaysia in 1965 to be a sovereign state?
And, latest reports on Thailand has some 46 wounded in a grenade blast in the Prime Minister's office. Another Thai contagion going to spread around the region as it did in 1997 financial crisis?
I don't think so, for the tourists are going to Indonesia and Malaysia instead. Realities are harsh on socio-economic impacts for any country in civil strifes what with all the "travel advisories" put out by governments to warn their citizens not to travel to those countries, especially for countries where the tourism sector is important in their economy.
Thaksin may be a greedy and corrupt scumbag, but for the poor, rural Thais, he is the first prime minister to pay attention to them. This is a class war. And in Thailand, being fairer skinned is better than being dark skinned. Fair skin means urban and middle to upper class fine folks. Dark skin means poor and rural bumkins. That, is a generalisation, of course, by the Thai wags themselves.
J
Posted by: Jihadist | November 29, 2008 3:33 PM
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Farnaz, Farnaz, Farnaz,
And most of these problems would disappear if the followers of these religions would simply "deflaw" their histories and theologies!!!
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | November 29, 2008 2:51 PM
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Thailand: A lot of garbage is going to be coming out very soon regarding Thaksin, the wealth he stole from Thailand, and invested in England, which harbors him. Bank Malaysia has been implicated in this. Why?
Watch the airport. It's getting world coverage.
India: Although some Muslims have always been treated very well in India, they are second class citizens and the majority of Hindus believe they are guests in India. Never in Israel has anything like Gujarat occurred with Palestinians nor have Palestinians gone quite so far as that with Israelis. Indeed it is a fact that Israel is the only country in the Middle East where Muslims can vote, can serve in a legitimate parliament.
The number of terrorist groups in India grows every day. Americans hear nothing of Hindu oppression of Muslims because the US government wants access to India's wealth and capabilities for outsourcing.
Israel has nothing America wants except to use it as eyes and ears. What we want is Arab oil. Given traditional anti-semitism, greed, Israel is a good target, a good way for Americans to disguise their shenanigans in the Middle East, continue them, use the Israeli people. Since most Americans have difficulty with political analysis anyway, they never inquire why the media reports what it does, leaves out so much, e.g. the oppression of large scale oppression of Muslims in India, bride burning, female feticide.
For instance, there was and is nary a comment in the media about the twelve hundred Muslims killed in Gujurat and the sham investigation that followed. Meanwhile, it has been called genocide.
And the Bahai, imperiled as I speak?
Muslim nations will not take on India, although they do persecute Hindus. They cannot take on the Christian world although they do persecute Christians and spread filth about them.
They do take on Jews. An easy target, at least up until now. The reaction to the specific targeting of the Jewish Center is not good. As Anon says, this couple was greatly respected in Mumbai. My Pakistani friend who has relatives there heard from two of them, and the rage all around is great, but particularly with respect to this young couple as a racial target. Evidently, they did very fine work among the needy, living very simply themselves.
Hindu extremist groups abound. The situation is explosive.
Keep your eye on Thailand. The Times is reporting, but mainstream media are keeping silent about what the Thais want beyond the end of the sham government. They want Thaksin, the murdering thug dictator, who stole the wealth of Thailand and invested some of it in England which harbors him. If there is a Malaysian connection, as I've been hearing it should end. Malaysia is huge with many minority problems. It doesn't need more. The region is slowly coming to look like a tinder box.
Posted by: Farnaz | November 29, 2008 2:35 PM
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It never fails as the Reality Challenged and Obfuscating Jihadist again fails to conclude that the underlying problems with these terrorists' attacks are found in the Worst Book Ever Written"i.e. the koran.
And to reiterate:
And all of this Islamic nonsense revolves about a mythical "pretty, wingie, talking thingie"'s mythical visit in a mythical cave to one hallucinating, illiterate, warmongering and womanizing Arab!! Such belief goes way beyond being significantly stupid as shown by the 24/7 spilling of blood by the koranic followers of said long-dead Arab.
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | November 29, 2008 2:29 PM
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Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,
You referenced "www.topica.com/lists/gordonth... " i.e. Gordon Thomas.
Mr. Thomas is a prolific writer of part-fiction, part-truth books about spy agencies. Google it!!!
"I have reported all the major Middle East wars since 1956, including witnessing the effect of biological and chemical weapons in the notorious massacre of Kurds during the Iran/Iraq War. My intelligence contacts, particularly in Israel, helped to pave the way for me to go on producing Globe-Intel reports."
a review of his book The Secret History of the Mossad:
"This book was painfully difficult to finish simply because it was clear to me that the material provided was highly sensationalized, over-reaching, inaccurate, and just flat out incorrect."
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | November 29, 2008 2:24 PM
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Assalamu Alaikum Victoria,
Watching and reading the news on the Mumbai attacks made my head spin on the spins. It is called India's 9/11 by some, never mind the fact that some years back, an attack in a Mumbai train station cost over 2,000 lives. Perhaps it is more correct to call it India's Bali as the attacks are targetted in tourist areas, not the Mumbai stock exchange or financial centres. It only really matters when the rich and famous are killed but not the poor and unknown? Never mind all those spins about striking at a financial centres.
So, now I saw India's politicians shooting their mouths before investigations are done and Indian security forces going in with guns ablaze as the terrorists did. I don't even want to think about how many innocent victims, in the rescue ops, are caught in the crossfires as "collateral damage" among the 196 dead victims thus far.
And I still have to continue reading reports everyday of deaths in India due to sectarian violence, acts of terrorisms by Maoist/Communists, Hindu nationalists, Muslim extremists, Northeastern seperatists, the Indian police cooking up reports. And I am not going into Afghanistani and Iraqi deads and the on-off collective chokes of Palestinians by the Israeli government/security forces.
I do read Jane's to follow the arms sales, weapons have by countries and military capability among other to know the potential and happening conflict spots. And to follow news on occurences of violences too - where, why, when, who ect, for evaluating country risks, not just reams of economic indicators and HDIs reports. Of course the intelligence agencies of any country are not quite focussed on just intel on identified enemies, both real and created, to counter them. Some do create havoc causing intra-state and inter-state discords and coups and wars.
And right now, some Thais holing up and holding Bangkok airport are reported to have chased away some anti-riot police surrounding the airport. Go to go. Monday could be interesting in "market sentiments.."
Wassalam
J
Posted by: Jihadist | November 29, 2008 1:57 PM
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Gavriel, Rivka, murdered, and their son, Moshe, brought out covered in blood send greetings. Gavriel and Rivka worked with the poor, fed the hungry, were much loved in Mumbai.
islamists, watch your asses, watch them everywhere.
Posted by: Anonymous | November 29, 2008 2:24 AM
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Lib- Who in the world is Mr. Thomas and why would I care about any book reviews of a man of whom I have no awareness?
These are not from books- these are news articles and have nothign whatsoever to do with your Mr. Thomas.
What, are you talking about?
Posted by: VICTORIA | November 29, 2008 12:37 AM
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Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,
We recommend that you read the critics' reviews of Mr. Thomas' books before using him as an expert on foreign/globe intelligence.
"Caution: read with a heavy dose skepticism"
is a one line review of his latest book.
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | November 28, 2008 11:42 PM
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Hmmm, so the Reality Challenged and Obfuscating Jihadist does not believe that BO is the new head of the Immoral Majority?
How strange since she professes to know everything else about US politics and policies but somehow 70+million "BO voting" "moms and fathers" of 35+ million aborted womb-babies since 1973 somehow escapes the Jihadist's radar screen!!!
And again she fails to note that she is a member of the largest religious racist group on earth, i.e. the Sunni Muslims whose hate of Shiites almost equals that of the hate the Nazis had for the Jews.
And all of this Islamic nonsense revolves about a mythical "pretty, wingie, talking thingie"'s mythical visit in a mythical cave to one hallucinating, illiterate, warmongering and womanizing Arab!! Such belief goes way beyond being significantly stupid as shown by the 24/7 spilling of blood by the koranic followers of said long-dear Arab.
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | November 28, 2008 11:15 PM
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Globe-Intel
5-19-02
Janes information group, the world's foremost source on intelligence information, reported in July 2001 that "The Indian spy agency RAW and the Israeli spy agency Mossad have created four new agencies to infiltrate Pakistan to target important religious and military personalities, journalists, judges, lawyers and bureaucrats. In addition, bombs would be exploded in trains, railway stations, bridges, bus stations, cinemas, hotels and mosques of rival Islamic sects to incite sectarianism."
For archived Globe-Intel issues, click on www.topica.com/lists/gordonth...
Posted by: VICTORIA | November 28, 2008 10:50 PM
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Israel-India restored diplomatic ties in 1992- now Israel is the 2nd largest arm supplier to India-
If you google Israel-India you'll come up with a plethora of info-
I like Haaertz- Jerusalem Post- eh- not so much all the time-
Amazingly though- there is a media blackout on the pogrom being conducted against Christian in India now- google- Orissa-
And, well- there is a permanent blackout on Palestinians (especially what has been happening to the people in Gaza)
Complete silence from the west too-
Here are some things to google-
neocons
anti-defamation league
Orissa- hindu-christian violence or deaths
AIPAC
That alliance you joked about has already been active for some years now-
http://www.sodahead.com/group/3/forum/26/discussion/101956/gaza-salvation-in-a-news-broadcast/
Posted by: VICTORIA | November 28, 2008 10:19 PM
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And Concy Pussycat,
With statements posted by you in On Faith threads such as below, you are in no position to judge anyone's statements, be it on race and religion, or on political, economic, social, cultural, religious, scientific, values, mores, ethics issues:
CCNL : "BO rode to the Blood-Red house on the backs of 35+ million aborted womb babies and their 70+ million living and voting "mothers and fathers" making BO the new head of the Immoral Majority once held by HC and BC."
But what a fine ironist and satirist you would make if you are not serious about them such statements.
Out of here to the real world.
Posted by: Jihadist | November 28, 2008 9:06 PM
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Where are you Observer12 and Penman?
Your posts reposted here reminded me of the thinking of how and why some tertiary level educated Muslims, even doctors and engineers, becomes terrorists. It boils down to this -" What they did to us, what they did to our people, and so, we must exact revenge, to teach them to never again insult, demean and oppress our people in any way. So, let us get them who showed the slightest ignorance or wrong statements and actions against our people".
Too much firewater on Thanksgiving in pisiting about the possibility of holding guns and grenades in the hand to hurl at Christians and Muslims if pushed too far based on an imagined and blown out of proportion "racist slur" by Eboo Patel?
Oh, go ahead and call me racist or anti-Semitic for my posts on your posts if you must. I have read worst addressed to me in On Faith thread - terrorist and Jewlia are some of my personal favourites of attempted insults.
Perhaps, Al-Qaeda would love to have some regular On Faith posters with a talent and penchant for inventive invectives to draft taunts against their enemies.
Is this picking a fight? Certainly for a sanity check for those who regard themselves as above such thoughts.
Cheers and ciao.
J
Posted by: Jihadist | November 28, 2008 8:53 PM
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Speaking of terrorism, from Eboo Patel's thread folowing his essay on, "Music and the Possibility of Peace" are these posts which rightly belong here in Mr. Brumberg's piece and thread on Al-Qaeda's racist-religious tauntings of Obama:
Penman : "So far, all that you've had from Jews, despite what you've done to them, is a welcoming hand. That same hand, if pushed too far, could turn out like the Christians' hands, like the Muslims' hands, carrying hand grenades. It's happened before."
Observer12 :"Yes, it has. If what's happened and continues to happen in Mumbai doesn't do it, I don't know what will. Could be Jews and Hindus will make good bedfellows."
So, what has Mr. Eboo Patel got to do with the bigotry, discrimination, persecution of Jews to warrant this threats? Or what happened in Mumbai? Is this a Jewish Inquisition in the name of, or in the guise of Anti-Semiticsm?
As for the the possibility of Jews and Hindus as bedfellows, capital idea to perhaps, posit a new Judeo-Hindu vs Christian-Muslim clash? Come now. I have read Indian blogs reacting to Mumbai where Hindus are angered and venting hatred against Muslims even when Muslims are also victims. One ever stated, "Never again!". Sounds familiar? The only problem with that is, Hindus are the majority in India. They are not discriminated against nor persecuted, except Dalits. Majorities always oppress minorities in one way or another. Here in Malaysia, there in India, over there in the USA.
Come, taunt me, blame me, accuse me, vilify me - for my race, for my religion, for all that my race and religion has done to your people. I can take it - left right, centre, top, bottom.
A good weekend to you both.
J
Posted by: Jihadist | November 28, 2008 7:52 PM
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Farnaz,
I hope cooler heads prevail in the Middle East too, especially the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the longest conflict there. Extremists and hardliners on both sides still are setting the tone of the discourse and thrust of the conflict there, thought.
As for the external third parties (those indirect and direct players and stakeholders) to be reasonable towards one another in the Israeli-Palestinian battleground of religuous and political wills, as if.
J
Posted by: Jihadist | November 28, 2008 5:42 PM
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Hello Sparrow4,
Yes, I know Jews died too on 9/11. If I remember correctly, Malaysian security authorities did warn US security officials on a plot of a possible strike against the US. I do not want to get into that here and now as to why no preventive action was taken by the US as there are many articles and books on that.
I agree with you on the Internet where anyone can post anything. Yes, rumours, slanders, so-called "facts" do spread really fast by the Net. But, on the upside, so do alternate views and news and truths different from as fed by governments and groups with specific objectives, and those by mainstream media. In Asia, the Net is an important “truth” channel that governments cannot contain as opposed to the official lines. But one must look for, and know credible, reliable, verifiable, responsible sites and bloggers.
As for the Mumbai tragedy, I just wish the Indian government would admit and come to terms, as Indonesia and Malaysia did, that a country can, and do have home grown terrorists, and to go after them. Jemaah Islamiyah was not even linked with Al-Qaeda as some writers and terrorism experts did, but the focus was instead, as to how they grew locally, on their objectives, and what they did nationally.
There is a lot of religious and caste strife in India manifested into tit for tat violence before, now in Mumbai again, and will be in the future without fail. This Mumbai tragedy chillingly informed that these terrorists have taken their anger and hatred to town in full sight of the world and dragging in India’s friends too, in getting their attention by getting their nationals.
Regards
J
Posted by: Jihadist | November 28, 2008 5:30 PM
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Assalamu alaikum Victoria,
I thought so about AIPAC, a quite influential group in going after any anti-Semiticism by their criteria.
I have no intention of finding out, or seeing that Rothschild film, nor that film, "Obsession: Radical Islam's War Against the West". Nor would I make it a point to see films such as "Obesssion : Liberal West's Wars to Bring Freedom and Democracy in the Islamic World".
As for AIPAC, I learned it is better to know Israel and Israelis through their own newspapers, especially Haaretz and Jerusalem Post from the Net. Fox news, the American Thinker and AIPAC etc, is not way to get what is really going on in Israel from their own perspectives. I am surprised these two newspapers are more measured than Fox TV, but then, Fox TV is something else...
From reading those two Israeli newspapers, I got to know of, and read books by the so-called Israeli New Historians such as Tom Segev, Benny Morris and Illan Peppe. Interesting stuff they wrote about. And quite controversial fellows too, on what they wrote.
Wassalam
J
Posted by: Jihadist | November 28, 2008 5:19 PM
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Aquarius,
Moral relativism? Dualism? Karl Jung? We are just talking here, not psychoanalyzing…..
Yes, “everything is interconnected”, but not to the point where “evil is part of you”, but that “evil” can get to you literally, or figuratively or both. Either you become evil to fight evil, or you remain good in the midst of evil, and to fight evil with good. Good vs evil is within and without. Enough of the obvious from me.
All the same, I prefer Hannah Arendt’s 'banality of evil' as in her "Eichmann in Jerusalem" on how unthinkingly we can lapse into evil, doing evil.
Regards
J
Posted by: Jihadist | November 28, 2008 5:13 PM
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Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,
Without the votes of the Immoral Majority i.e. the 70+ million "mothers and fathers" of aborted womb-babies, BO would not have been elected President.
AIPAC had no effect on the election i.e. the total Jewish population in the USA is less than three million.
And are you not a Sunni Muslim i.e. a member of the world's largest religious racist group???
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | November 28, 2008 4:40 PM
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If morality was a domain then moral relativism would be being blind.
Dualism would be a world where things are black and white and shades of grey, but where more evil is created in the process of resisting evil.
"Resist not evil" brakes the cycle of violence but it is not enough for two reasons. Evil will still hurt you and continue to exist. And if you happen to individuate in the Jungian sense you will find that everything is interconnected to a point where evil is part of you, and you - part of evil, even if you do nothing evil; to accept evil would mean to take responsibility for evil world-wide, and to not accept it would leave you incomplete and divided. This moral domain is inclined and up-hill, and trying to be good is a Sisyphean task where people will invariably slip for one or both of the above two reasons.
The solution to that, I think, is a colorful moral domain, where events deeds and people are in different colors, rather than just black and white and shades of grey. This domain is flat and level and much more easy to navigate. Events, deeds and people do not group in one extremity or another by moral weight.
Also, it is much easier to handle in this domain what is 'evil' in the other domains - events, deeds and people are, of course, still the same, but viewing them in and through a colorful moral domain makes it easier to make the world a better place.
Posted by: Aquarius | November 28, 2008 2:59 PM
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For the record, AIPAC (American-Israel Public Affais Committee)is the second largest lobby in America- and no candidate can even dream of becoming Presdient without their backing.
Look at what happened to Obama in 2006 when he dared to state that the Palestinians were suffering.
If he hadn't immediately retracted that outrageous notion, and replace Israelis with Palestinians- he would NOT be Presdient today.
Wondering what the new policies on Israel will be is a valid concern. It is our unique relationship ith Israel that and biased policies concerning her that has encouraged terrorist recruitment around the world.
I have never heard of this Rothschild film either- but just about every American has heard of Obsession.
May receiving it for free with their newspapers.
Twenty-eight million copies of a DVD of the film "Obsession: Radical Islam's War Against the West" have been distributed free of cost in 70 newspapers and magazines across the country. The film was first released a few years ago and has been shown around the country.
Xenophobia is what it is.
It doesn't become any prettier because a Muslim face is put on it.
Posted by: VICTORIA | November 28, 2008 2:01 PM
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Hmmm, what the Reality Challenged and Obfuscating Jihadist again does not mention is that she is a member of one of the largest religious racist groups i.e. the Sunni Muslims.
The 800 million Sunni Muslims whose hate of the 200 million Shiite Muslims borders on the Nazi's hate of the Jews.
From CNN:
"Al-Sistani was apparently referring to Abdullah bin Jabrain, a key member of Saudi Arabia's clerical establishment, who last month joined a chorus of other senior figures from the hardline Wahhabi school of Sunni Islam that regards Shiites as infidels.
Bin Jabrain described Shiites as "the most vicious enemy of Muslims."
This Sunni-Shiite blood feud/hatred/genocide/terror continue to spread globally as noted before and below:
Iraq's civil war- Sunni minority, Shiite majority, 24/7 blood letting, 4000 American soldiers dead, 90,000 Iraqi civilians, dead.
Iran, Shiite theocracy, 24/7 support of global terror.
OBL, Sunni/"Wannabee"/Saudi madman and madmen, 24/7 support of global terror.
Fill in the answers below:
Hamas, Sunni or Shiite??
Fatah, Sunni or Shiite??
Pakistan, Sunni or Shiite? Which group assassinated Bhutto??
Malaysia, nearing a Sunni theocracy?
Bahrain, Sunni or Shiite???
Phillipines, Sunni or Shiite???
Taliban, Sunni or Shiite???
Somalia, Sunni or Shiite???
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | November 28, 2008 9:38 AM
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I hope everyone had a wonderful thanksgiving. I spent it arguing with a conservative republican who still makes excuses for going into Iraq. I think i won that argument (he thinks he won) :-)
Jihadist- I can tell you that many Jews died on 9-11. anyone who wants to see the lists and go through the names could tell you the same. One man, an Orthodox Jew died because he wouldn't leave a coworker in a wheelchair. One of the problems with the internet is that anyone can post and anything can be posted. rumors take on a life of their own and sometimes it seems that hatred spreads faster than truth and good will.
the comment made to me about the Jews being responsible for 9-11 was made to me by a Hispanic volunteer- Puerto Rican actually . I was totally taken aback, and then enraged. sometimes i think there is no end to the stupidity of human beings and the pain they inflict on others- the horrible events in Mumbai certainly illustrate that.
But then I read many of the posts here, from people like yourself who want to establish communication and people like Farnaz2 who are going out an accomplishing real things in an interfaith and non-sectarian way, and arminius who often creates bridges between even the most contentious of us. It is something to give thanks for today. And I did.
Posted by: sparrow4 | November 28, 2008 12:34 AM
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Dear Professor Brumberg
Happy Thanksgiving Day!
Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia
Posted by: Soja John Thaikattil, Sydney, Australia | November 27, 2008 9:30 PM
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Jihadist:
This is my last post on this blog for awhile. I can see in rereading our mutual comments that we have posted straight passed each other like two hybrids driving in the night.
Probably we agree more than we disagree. I think we are all rapidly degenerating into what one writer called "solipsistic blocs" brought on by "heritage," "globalization" (?), identity politics, an ironic construction, since it has cost most of us our identities.
"The Protocols," btw., was exported to the Arab world by the EuroChristians beginning with the Crusades. More recently, it was Ford, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and Adolf Hitler, who planted the seeds of hatred and craziness. You'd be surprised at how many Asian and Middle Eastern academics know this.
Still, it would have been much better if the later Jews, those who returned tried hard to sever connections with Europe and the US, accept the few overtures from Arabs in the region. God knows, that is what I would have done.
What you are doing in your region I congratulate you for. If the greedy Brits don't stop exploiting Thai wealth through Thaksin, if they don't send him back, if the young Thai men I've seen return, and there are many of them throughout the world, bad, bad stuff is on the way.
I wonder when the US will face the simple fact that we are not the only bad guys. It's a predatory world.
Good luck to you.
Farnaz
Posted by: Farnaz | November 27, 2008 8:49 PM
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Jihadist,
My husband is fond of Nasreddin (ملا نصرالدین), but that is a different kind of thing.
Regards,
Farnaz
Posted by: Farnaz | November 27, 2008 6:25 PM
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Jihadist:
Part III and fin, I hope.
So the anti-western and anti-Jewish racist discourse can only go so far. People want to eat.
Elsewhere in the Middle East anti-Jewish discourse has been somewhat more successful, but only somewhat. Terrorism is rife throughout despite attempted distractions.
Then of course there is the anti-Christian rhetoric, but I'll save that for a later post.
This is why the US has taken to trying to impose democracy on the region, something, btw., that many in the region want, but that is not why this country is pushing for it. We are pushing for it because we have found that our historic pattern of supporting dictators has failed.
_____________________
Then, too, there is the increasing awareness of the Israeli people, which has continually been lied to by this and their own government. This, in the future, could make our manipulation of them much more difficult. There are already signs.
A few highlights of our support:
We literally tried to stop them from fighting back in the 1973 war. The New York Times of all newspapers published the timetable of US involvement that cost Israeli lives. Worse, we made Israel allow aid in to the trapped Egyptian third army, since they did not wish to surrender!!!
More deaths. How about when we made them give Arafat save passage out of Syria when the Israeli Army was nine miles away from him, so he returned to cause more misery not only for Israelis but for Palestinians.
Then, too, let us look at the Gulf War. We prevented Israel from defending itself from Iran and with the cooperation of the Israeli government told the Israeli people they needed us to defend them. Many people will recall that the US newspapers reported that no one was killed by the Iranian air strikes. The same garbage was fed to the Israelis, until the victims' families, with great difficulty, made themselves heard.
And then there was the promise of peace from Clinton, which the country signed off on even as they were daily victimized by terrorist attacks.
Forcing them to buy weapons from us at a great price that they have not used, have no interest in using, that are standing around in the midst of an economic crisis.
I am no banker. I am a simple academic who is trying to do her best to bring a little peace and justice wherever she can. We don't have money. We have very little. Now think about it. If I can do what I've done with the little I've got, what could someone like you do?
And a lot needs to be done. From the smallest seeds, beautiful gardens grow.
Farnaz
Posted by: Farnaz | November 27, 2008 6:20 PM
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Jihaditst:
Part II:
Moi: No. It does not take a genius, only one committed to intellectual surrender. It takes, in other words, a fool. The US support of Israel, when it has supported Israel, a point I will return to, is based on one thing: exploitation. They are our eyes and ears in the Middle East, for one reason. They are stable, so they are easily used, abused, and exploited.
This has not prevented us from giving six billion dollars a year to Mubarak, who gives some of the money to terrorists, most to his feudal family friends, et al, while Egyptians starve. As you should know, he is grooming his son to succeed him. We cannot depend on Egypt or any other Middle Eastern nation to do our bidding, since their governments are exploitive and corrupt, must foment anti-Western and, especially, antisemitic rhetoric in order to distract the populous from its internal problems.
As you should know, this strategy has not been all that successful in my country, which just hanged thirteen Jews. Terrorism has subsided in Iran since it has found a new friend in its historic enemy, courtesy of the US. Nevertheless, there are demonstrations daily because people need jobs. As you also should know the few who actually cast real ballots for Ahkmedinijad did so because he promised an equitable distribution of the wealth, a promise he has not kept, of course. How could he? He knows nothing of economics and is not the power in Iran.
Posted by: Farnaz | November 27, 2008 6:20 PM
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Jihadist:
Part I: I'm going to have to post this in parts since it keeps getting "held."
"It is the Jewish people, particularly the Israelis, who are stuck between the those who see them as the AntiChrists (both Muslims and Christians extremists) and the Christ deniers (Christians extremists), or to see them as enablers of the Rapture and End of Time (Christian fundies). It does not take a genius to see that since the west have come off the guilt of the Shoah and already sufficiently contrite or repentant, in choosing between the devil (Muslims-east) and the deep blue see (Christians-west), Jews would chose the deep blue sea to stake their future and survival on."
Moi: This is very interesting. Seeing our extraordinary diversity, the many lands we come from, the many traditions we follow, you have managed to state that we all think in the same way. You are stereotyping us with rhetoric that is all-too familiar.
Moi:I doubt very much that you are unaware of the virulent antisemitism pervasive throughout the Middle East, Asia, and your country. I don't want to start posting links but will do so if need be. In Egypt, where the government own the newspapers, as is the case throughout much of the Muslim world, appeals were made to stop the spreading of the sickness. Of course, Mubarak claimed that he could not do so since his country has "freedom of the press." I don't joke; he said that.
Jihadist:"It does not take a genius to see that since the west have come off the guilt of the Shoah and already sufficiently contrite or repentant, in choosing between the devil (Muslims-east) and the deep blue see (Christians-west), Jews would chose the deep blue sea to stake their future and survival on."
Posted by: Farnaz | November 27, 2008 6:17 PM
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Farnaz : “Simply because I object to all forms of racism, including antisemitism does not mean I'm an imperialist, although that is the thinking of all too many people. I wouldn't have thought you one of them.”
And what has imperialism and racism got to do with you personally? I know you history as an Iranian Jew as you shared in On Faith threads. You are a victim of Iranian religious intolerance, persecution and expulsion of religious minorities, including Bahais.
Imperialism is by governments, not individuals. There are shades and extent of imperialism in words and actions. China and Cuba etc. call it “hegemony”. Others call it “unilateralism”. Some others call it neo-imperialism. And what has imperialism and racism got to do with you personally? I know you history as an Iranian Jew as you shared in On Faith threads. You are a victim of Iranian religious intolerance, persecution and expulsion of religious minorities, including Bahais.
In this century, there is no imperialism, only exporting peace and democracy by any means to justify the ends. As for whose ends is debated endlessly. But, I do like “humanitarian interventions” though, to save people from killing one another. If only there is more “humanitarian interventions” to save and help people affected by natural disasters.
...and thus end my wacked and whacked series of multiple posts in Georgetown blog as my leave ends today. Oh, bar this Saturday and Sunday.
Best regards
J
Posted by: Jihadist | November 27, 2008 6:08 PM
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Moi : "Obviously better to hunt them down to the last man in the last cave in Afghanistan and where ever they may but to avoid "collateral damage" if possible. And, as 15 of 19 who executed 9/11 are Saudis, oh, why not invade Iraq? Ops, I forgot, it was Iraq who has WMDs."
Farnaz : Sorry, but I don't really see the point. Going to Iraq was insane as I have frequently posted.
- I know you do and that is precisely the point. Bush should have focused on hunting Al-Q in Afghanistan instead of going to Iraq and cost American taxpayers almost a trillion dollars. So, Saddam Hussein is gone, but Al-Qaeda is still around and issuing taped taunts after taped taunts against America.
I must remember that badly written irony, sarcasm and satire sometimes don't get across too well across oceans and chasms.
J
Posted by: Jihadist | November 27, 2008 6:04 PM
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Farnaz,
“I would like to see Jews be proud of their heritage. I would indeed like to see a brown Jewish girl become president. I would like to take my daughter to Tehran. My mother would like to see her friends, those who could not come back here.”
Pardon? I did not say that.
On synagogues -
Yes, I’ve been to synagogues as some of my family members on my mother’s side are still practicing Jews. As for my “outreach” to Jews, it is limited to family members, university mates, and colleagues in the banking business. There are not too many Jews in East Asia too. So, direct, everyday contact and outreach is most limited.
Most of my activities, i.e. funding support are for advocacy and operational NGOs in Malaysia in particular, and Asia in general focusing on women and children’s rights issues and real needs as well as the environment. I limit it to my country and the region as there is much that needs to be done, and what one does seem like a drop in the ocean of human deprivation and needs – from human rights to better education and health access.
And psst, to Malaysian blogs and websites too.
J
Posted by: Jihadist | November 27, 2008 5:59 PM
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Farnaz : “Let me put it another way: Racism says nothing about the group targeted and everything about the group that targets.”
Who can disagree with that? We also need to look as to why one group harbours racism against another.
Should we take seriously those thinker-writers who spoke of a Judeo-Christian heritage or civilization and the Muslim civilization/world. In putting it in such terms, it is clearly acknowledging the apparent differences between two and attendant “clash of civilizations” and what not.
The Abrahamic faiths are one that clearly demarcated, got separated and divorced in a western one (Judeo-Christian) and an eastern one (Muslim) in spite of it being born in the Middle East or Near East, whichever geographical term one prefers.
And, in spite of sharing the same historical antecedents on religious belief that evolved, was modified, was revised through the centuries. Or just stay the same for some literalists and inerrantists. No doubt too, the Abrahamic faiths were politicised and thus, sharpened in their differences among from myriad theological interpretations and schools of thoughts within and between the Abrahamic faiths.
The West targeting Muslims. Muslims targeting the west. The Jews targeted by Muslims and Christians. That is the cliché all have read and heard. That is the reality for some in feeling the consequences of real acts of bigotry because they are Jews or Christians or Muslims.
J
Posted by: Jihadist | November 27, 2008 5:51 PM
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Farnaz : “…but more importantly, what has AIPAC got to do with me? Or with Jews, per se?”
- That’s is exactly it. As in what has Endtimes Evangelicals got to do with Christians such as Arminius or Viejita Del Oste or Daniel in th Lion’s Den or Obama? There is individual racism - one on one. There is collective racism – one group against the other. There is generalized racism – they all are the same. There is institutionalized racism – segregation and apartheid.
You : “….with respect to Iraq and Afghanistan, neocons, etc., that is foundational to anti-Jewish racism. And you do use that language. And you do accuse.”
Read again my post. It was stating what is going on in the Muslim world among some Muslims on their thinking on Jews. It’s current form really started to widen with the creation of Israel, with the wars some Arab states have with Israel, and with the plight of Palestinians as perceived by Muslims. And need I say that “The Protocol of the Elders of Zion” discredited in the west, is widely available in the Muslim world and feed on belief in the Jewish conspiracies? This you already know.
And oh, come, now, I am not accusing you of anything.
J
Posted by: Jihadist | November 27, 2008 5:42 PM
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Farnaz : “Much of the hatred in the Muslim world is directed at Emmanuel simply because he is Jewish. That is unfortunate. Here in the US, people are aware of Islamic antisemitism. They know about the famous film on the Rothchilds, which as my Pakistani sister says is hilarious, but which many Muslims actually believe is fact.”
I never know of that film on the Rothschilds. Which one is that, and who made it? .
Not quite hatred of Emanuel, but mistrust due to what his percieved “partisan” father said, and the percieved “partisan” stance on the state of Israel Rahm took as a Congressman and activities before that. Certainly, all Americans who bid for office in the US affirmed their support for Israel as a matter of course, and they are mostly not Jewish.
Should Muslims take the stance of all American candidates on that as racism against Arabs? Or as support for an ally in the midst of America’s perceived enemies? Perceived and actual racism begets racist reactions.
It is the Jewish people, particularly the Israelis, who are stuck between the those who see them as the AntiChrists (both Muslims and Christians extremists) and the Christ deniers (Christians extremists), or to see them as enablers of the Rapture and End of Time (Christian fundies). It does not take a genius to see that since the west have come off the guilt of the Shoah and already sufficiently contrite or repentant, in choosing between the devil (Muslims-east) and the deep blue see (Christians-west), Jews would chose the deep blue sea to stake their future and survival on.
J
Posted by: Jihadist | November 27, 2008 5:32 PM
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Hello Farnaz,
I have no doubt that you are not a racist and a person of quite high tolerance too, in the sea of On Faith bigots and racists. Hey, you are even friends with Spiderman2, or is it Spidermean2? The one and only who is fond of and prone to calling Catholics, atheists, Muslims, Pagans, anyone who disagree with him as “stupid”.: ).
But, why not go this and that way on issues with regard to other notions, on other perceptions, on other thinking? So here goes…….
Posted by: Jihadist | November 27, 2008 5:29 PM
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Whoops! I forgot. You mentioned the "legendary AIPAC." First all groups have PACs (e.g., MPAC), but more importantly, what has AIPAC got to do with me? Or with Jews, per se?
You see, this language, including that with which you accuse me with respect to Iraq and Afghanistan, neocons, etc., that is foundational to anti-Jewish racism. And you do use that language. And you do accuse.
Let me put it another way: Racism says nothing about the group targeted and everything about the group that targets.
I am no banker. I am a simple academic who is trying to do her best to bring a little peace and justice wherever she can. We don't have money. We have very little. Now think about it. If I can do what I've done with the little I've got, what could someone like you do?
And a lot needs to be done. From the smallest seeds, beautiful gardens grow.
Posted by: Farnaz | November 27, 2008 2:30 PM
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Jihadist continued
I would like to see Jews be proud of their heritage. I would indeed like to see a brown Jewish girl become president. I would like to take my daughter to Tehran. My mother would like to see her friends, those who could not come back here.
What has any of this got to do with Iraq? With Afghanistan? You are stereotyping me. Reread what you wrote.
Have you ever been to a synagogue Jihadist? I go at least once a month to the Westbury Islamic Center. Most of the Muslims here are very well off, but some are not. I want to make sure we do sufficient outreach to get them help once the grant I wrote becomes flesh, as it were.
And that is not all the outreach I've done to Muslims, but then, I married one. He wants to go home to Tehran, too, but he cannot, because he is married to me. So, tell me, what kind of outreach have you done as far as Jews are concerned?
Posted by: Farnaz | November 27, 2008 2:11 PM
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Jihadist:
"Obviously better to hunt them down to the last man in the last cave in Afghanistan and where ever they may but to avoid "collateral damage" if possible. And, as 15 of 19 who executed 9/11 are Saudis, oh, why not invade Iraq? Ops, I forgot, it was Iraq who has WMDs."
Nope. Nothing really makes sense in actions and reactions.
Sorry, but I don't really see the point. Going to Iraq was insane as I have frequently posted. I have also frequently mentioned the enormous refugee problem there, the toll in human IRAQI life, the fact that Iraqi children are now prostituting themselves in Syria, where Arabs from all over the region come to avail themselves of their services. Again and again, I have written that I objected to this from the beginning, an objection I had the guts to publish here in the US under my own name. Not that I had any love for Sadaam, but that I could only see worse evil coming from it and Bin Laden not only had nothing to do with Sadaam, but openly dispised him.
Iranians actually demonstrated in Iran hoping the US would invade them next. Here Iranian friends, both Muslim and Jewish had the same hopes. One couldn't convince them.
I have pointed out that child prostitution is nothing new in times of war, that it occurred all over Europe during WWII, and in the Middle East as well, that now the US has brought it to Syria in the twenty-first century.
I have mentioned a close friend who divides his time between Pakistan, Afghanistan, and the United States. He brought back photos of body parts one simply stumbles across as one walks around in Afghanistan. Again, in the US, there is a complete media blackout on this.
Simply because I object to all forms of racism, including antisemitism does not mean I'm an imperialist, although that is the thinking of all too many people. I wouldn't have thought you one of them. Much of the hatred in the Muslim world is directed at Emmanuel simply because he is Jewish. That is unfortunate. Here in the US, people are aware of Islamic antisemitism. They know about the famous film on the Rothchilds, which as my Pakistani sister says is hilarious, but which many Muslims actually believe is fact.
What happened to the Middle Eastern Jews is a fact, documented. Why would I think that was all right?
Posted by: Farnaz | November 27, 2008 2:10 PM
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Oops! Almost forgot.
Penman : "This is the kind of thinking, not the broadcast of a lunatic that could cause anti-Islamic sentiment in the U.S.
If that is really your worry, I wouldn't publish that type of thinking on the web."
I should hope Americans are exposed to as many lines of thinking going on outside the US as outsiders are on US thinking. You do know most of the world is learning English, but Americans don't as much on foreign languages.
So, foreigners do know what is going on in the US, written by Americans themselves and globalised by US media, print and electronic and the Net too. What Americans know of the thinking outside the US are by American writers, or by foreign writers who wrote in English, or their work translated into English.
I am exposed to plenty of vents and rants and bile on Islam and Muslims, and it did not kill me. And they are published even in On Faith threads. Anti-Muslim or Anti-Islam sentiment is not new. Neither is Anti-West sentiment among Africans and Asians regardless of race or religion. Perhaps Americans are just not paying that much attention to other anti-American sentiments expressed by the like of Chavez and Putin among others too.
"With great power comes great responsibility" - Spider-Man
Cheers and ciao
J
Posted by: Jihadist | November 27, 2008 1:33 PM
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Farnaz : I should be very proud indeed if we were ever to have Jewish president. I should love that day, particularly if the president were a woman, perhaps, a brown woman, like my very wise nine-year-old daughter will be all too soon for me, I fear. Is there anything wrong with that, do you think?
Penman : Nope.
I would love to see the day when Americans elected a wheel-chair bound African-American Shiite Muslim lesbian as President of the USA. That will show the world on not being bigoted on basis of gender, race, religion and differently abled.
Cheers and out of here.
J
Posted by: Jihadist | November 27, 2008 1:17 PM
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“Maybe, not such a good idea for Muslims to criticize our chief of staff cuz they just don't like Jews. Maybe a good time for Muslims to shut it. Shut it up tight.”
O course, Americans have no anti-Semiticism and all accept Obama with fullheartedness as President. Muslim racism is crude and open, but the Americans ones are “sophisticated” and couched in code words such as “NeoCons”, “eastern liberals”, “eastern intellectual establishment” and lately, “atheists” to describe Jews.
Perhaps, a better idea would be not to have a write up on Rahm Emanuel in Wikipedia which is quoted as the source and the link on info regarding the chief of staff-designate of the President-elect. It is what Mr. Emanuel’s father was, and said he expected of his son Rahm that got a lot of notice. Rahm dissociated himself from his father’s comments.
The “Securing the Realm” paper, the “Project for the New American Century”, is quite well known in the Muslim world. So are the legendary Jewish lobby, especially AIPAC. And all information on these emanated from the American media sources, including the Net flowing and coursing in the Muslim world .
I leave it to you to decide on what this means –Racism conflated into politics? Politics dished out with racism to heighten differences and justify causes as in Judeo-Christian civilization vs the Other? Politics of securing and controlling resources? Politics of bringing the Birth Pangs of a New Middle East? Politics of freeing Muslims from despotic regimes?
Some Muslims don’t think there will be any real change in the US policy on the Middle East, including helping to resolve the Israel-Palestine conflict, impartially and justly.
We are still living in times of different narratives and divergent perspectives between the Muslim world and the Western world. As was for the last 14 centuries. What else is new?
J
Posted by: Jihadist | November 27, 2008 12:54 PM
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Notsogreatscot: “My local Fox News outlet told me (most every day for what seemed like an eternity) that Obama pals around with terrorists, and wants to surrender to them! It must be true, it was on my TV everyday!!! Now you are trying to tell me that Al-Qaeda doesn't like him? I don't understand.”
- Obviously, Al-Qaeda thinks that they are the Black Panthers of the Muslim Liberation Movement, the Muslim Pride Movement for Muslim self-determination and Muslim rights. And hence, Malcolm X is their hero, and Obama a sold-out being a whiter skinned “black” who passed into “white” society.
(this too, is sarcasm for the sarcasm impaired)
J
Posted by: Jihadist | November 27, 2008 12:46 PM
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Hello Sparrow4
No, I never believe racism will ever be let go by some people. Nor do I believe religious chauvinism and bigotry will be let go too by some people.
It would seem (even in On Faith threads) the only ones who received less racism and sexism are white male Caucasians. Until they let know their personal religious affiliation and beliefs, their political affiliations and why, their stance on issues from the environment to the financial situation. But, of course, in the last and this century, the white male Caucasian in the West are blamed for everything that is wrong with the world by everyone in the third world…
As for the American Muslim community, it seems that quite a number of Americans forgot many of these Muslims are also escaping persecution or oppression in their countries of origins apart from seeking a better life for themselves and their families. What could not be more American than that?
I am surprised to read that many interracial children felt pressured in the US on identity as you wrote, especially, the children of Black/White parents being perceived as Black and so they perceive themselves that way as well. So, skin colour do matter still. It would seem that Americans will admire successful African-Americans like Oprah, but do still harbour some racism for the rest. Never mind the fact that most African-Americans are Christians like most Caucasian Americans.
Best regards
J
Posted by: Jihadist | November 27, 2008 12:13 PM
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Hello Farnaz,
Yes, I read Sparrow's comments on Ground Zero, and was suprised to hear that some blame Jews for that. And now you are saying, all US blamed Muslims (and of course, 15 of 19 who executed 9/11 are Saudis) and claimed that all Muslim stores in the area were closed.
Ironic, for as you well know, some Muslims believe in a conspiracy that it was by CIA/MOSSAD and that Jews working at the Twin Towers were pre-warned not to go to work.
No one wants to take responsibility for 9/11 but Al-Qaeda. They denied it was them initially, and then took the "credit" for it. And got the reaction they wanted..i.e. to drag the US into wars and to drain the US financially in these wars. The US is spending close to a trillion dollars in Iraq.
Al-Q's current statement is also reminder of their intent. Not to go where they wanted is wise, i.e. the invasion and occupation of countries deemed to be infested with Al-Q members, or to "liberate" and set forth freedom and democracy on formerly oppressed countries.
Obviously better to hunt them down to the last man in the last cave in Afghanistan and where ever they may but to avoid "collateral damage" if possible. And, as 15 of 19 who executed 9/11 are Saudis, oh, why not invade Iraq? Ops, I forgot, it was Iraq who has WMDs.
Nope. Nothing really makes sense in actions and reactions.
Regards
J
Posted by: Jihadist | November 27, 2008 11:35 AM
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Hello Victoria,
As'kum
(Malaysian Muslim shortform for Assalaamu alaikum in blogs)
I never knew non-Muslim or Muslim women are not requested to cover their head whens visiting a mosque during non-prayer times.
I guess they are less uptight on that than our mosques' "guardians". But, they will welcome the Pope as he always has some sort of splendid headgear on at all times.
Wassalam
J
Posted by: Jihadist | November 27, 2008 11:15 AM
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Wait - I'm confused. Al-Qaeda is assaulting Obama?
My local Fox News outlet told me (most every day for what seemed like an eternity) that Obama pals around with terrorists, and wants to surrender to them! It must be true, it was on my TV everyday!!!
Now you are trying to tell me that Al-Qaeda doesn't like him? I don't understand.
(The comments above are sarcasm. This comment was added for the benefit of the sarcasm impaired)
Posted by: Nosogreatscot | November 27, 2008 8:09 AM
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"Maybe, not such a good idea for Muslims to criticize our chief of staff cuz they just don't like Jews."
Bingo! Not a good idea.
Posted by: Gene | November 27, 2008 12:46 AM
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jihadist- I think its obvious that some people will never let go of their racism long enough to to try to bridge the gap with those who wish too. Unfortunately hate is easier than friendship it would seem. although i am no longer married, I still have Black relatives, nieces and nephews. I live in a black neighborhood and my landlady is my best friend of over 20 years, a wonderful Black woman who has seen me through the worst times of my life. I grew up in a mixed neighborhood and I come to realize that not a lot of white Americans have had the closeness I do with the black community.
Although by NYC standards my neighborhood is working class and poor, the variety of incomes, education levels and incredible stories of the people who live here are wonderful.
It's very hard to separate out the anger against Muslims after 9-11 with the reality of who Arab Americans are. Brooklyn has a very large Muslim population, and I lived a block away from one of the oldest in the City until 2003. To get home that night on 9-11 and find the street barricaded and police stopping every car and checking ids was almost more shocking than the fall of the towers. It was as if my country had turned into a whole other place, a police state. It was terrifying and inconceivable. The Muslim community, for its part was terrified too.
And this is the worst thing extremists do- they make us all afraid to trust that there are good people on the "other side" and they use fear to drive wedges between all good people because it strengthens the terrorists as it weakens our power to deal with them.
You, my friend are a veritable U.N. all by yourself! I think its wonderful you have so many rich traditions to draw on. In the end you really don't choose because all those identities work to make you the person you are. Even though you chose Islam, the kind of person ou are is still an evolution of all those things and your family history. How lucky you are in that! Many interracial children feel pressure, here in the states to define themselves as one thing or another. Usually the children of Black/White parents are perceived as Black and so they perceive themselves that way as well, often to the extent of negating their white parent. No one should have to choose. It would be so lovely if every aspect of who you are was simply appreciated and enjoyed.
Posted by: sparrow4 | November 27, 2008 12:41 AM
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Anon wrote:
"Truthfully, I see nothing racist in this by itself. It is racist only in the context of the rest of Zawahari's presentation which is antisemtic, of course. It is also racist in the larger context of Islamism's anti-Jewish racist discourse, cinema, news media, etc., which is pervasive in the Arab world. But it is appropriate for anyone in a synagogue, any male, certainly, to wear a kipa. Had he ridden in on a camel with a towel around his head, well, that would have been inappropriate."
I agree. It would've been inappropriate.
Posted by: Anonymous | November 26, 2008 11:41 PM
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Turn on the news. We have Mumbai where Islamists went gunning those with American or British passports. Not known yet how many were killed. Mumbai (Bombay)still under siege.
New York City. Al Quaeda plot uncovered to bomb Long Island Railroad. Would have affected Metro North and subway.
Maybe, not such a good idea for Muslims to criticize our chief of staff cuz they just don't like Jews. Maybe a good time for Muslims to shut it. Shut it up tight.
Posted by: Anonymous | November 26, 2008 11:10 PM
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Hmmm, what the Reality Challenged and Obfuscating Jihadist does not mention is that she is a member of one of the largest religious racist groups i.e. the Sunni Muslims.
The 800 million Sunni Muslims whose hate of the 200 million Shiite Muslims borders on the Nazi's hate of the Jews.
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | November 26, 2008 11:07 PM
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Jihadist-
"it should be of more concern that Muslim blogs are already pointing out the background of Rahm Emanuel, Obama's chief of staff, as indication that US policy in the Middle East will remain the same. But, we will have to wait and see if this is true."
This is the kind of thinking, not the broadcast of a lunatic that could cause anti-Islamic sentiment in the U.S.
If that is really your worry, I wouldn't publish that type of thinking on the web.
Posted by: Penman | November 26, 2008 10:42 PM
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Jihadist writes to Farnaz-
"it should be of more concern that Muslim blogs are already pointing out the background of Rahm Emanuel, Obama's chief of staff, as indication that US policy in the Middle East will remain the same. But, we will have to wait and see if this is true."
No offense, but this is racism, pure and simple.
Jews have as much rights as anyone else in this country.
"But, we will have to wait and see if this is true."
You will wait and see if "this" is true? You will wait and see if he takes a Middle East policy you disapprove of, in which case you will attribute it to his being Jewish. If he takes a policy you approve of, you will attribute it to...?
This is the sort of thinking Americans need to rid themselves of. We've taken a step with Obama. Let's see if we can take it with Emmanuel.
Posted by: Penman | November 26, 2008 9:59 PM
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Farnaz-
"I should be very proud indeed if we were ever to have Jewish president. I should love that day, particularly if the president were a woman, perhaps, a brown woman, like my very wise nine-year-old daughter will be all too soon for me, I fear.
Is there anything wrong with that, do you think?"
Nope.
Posted by: Penman | November 26, 2008 8:54 PM
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Jihadist,
A couple of final thoughts. I'm unimpressed by Emmanuel's Jewishness. I should be very proud indeed if we were ever to have Jewish president. I should love that day, particularly if the president were a woman, perhaps, a brown woman, like my very wise nine-year-old daughter will be all too soon for me, I fear.
Is there anything wrong with that, do you think?
Farnaz
Posted by: Farnaz | November 26, 2008 7:00 PM
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Jihadist,
Thanks and ditto. We are, I fear provocative and contentious ladies, and we are not alone in that on this blog. Agreed the blog has gotten less interesting. The questions are low brow and many of the smartest people have left. I did enjoy sparring with Mr. Mark, abrasive though he often was. Others have left as well: Pam, whom I thought very smart, Wiglaf, very smart and witty, Gerry, Merry Anon et al.
Among the factors that drove them off, that drove you off for awhile was the racism. In part, I need a break from it myself. Y
ou know, I read Sparrow's comments on Ground Zero. Throughout the US, it was blamed on Muslims and claimed that all Muslim stores in the area were closed; btw., this was not the Jewish perspective. Now in the Muslim world, as it were, all you need to do is substitute the word Muslims for the word Jews.
Makes sense? Not in my thought world, and I like my thought world.
As for Thailand, the biggest problem is the sham government, and the English keeping Thaksin and benefiting from his thefts of the wealth of Thailand. Right here in the US there are young Thai men who are angry and who are returning. They are also different form any Thai I have ever met before. They are educated, angry, and unafraid of violence.
As ugly as things are, unless he and his family are brought to justice, unless England summons the guts to send him back and returns Thai wealth, it could get worse than anything yet imagined.
What is important about the grant is that it shows thee are workable alternatives to faith-based funding, not that that should need to be shown. There have been and always will be many wonderful grants such as that for the Equal Opportunity Program. They are the sorts of things that happen in this country that give one hope.
I'm about to free associate, so forgive me. A couple of years ago Tony Blair, George Bush, and the United Nations (!), conducted surveys on
antisemiticism, as in anti-Jewish racism. You can find them on the web, if you're interested.
No, there will be no justice, not for any of us. All we can do is seek to create it within ourselves and in whatever small piece of the world we can help.
Farnaz
Posted by: Farnaz | November 26, 2008 6:49 PM
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Hello Farnaz,
Okay, point agreed in not naming the journal and on privacy of your identity.
As for signing in for a WaPo MyPost ID, the blog managers did say they did that to encourage or ensure a better discussion among posters. Looks like the discussion has not improved at all in spite of this new condition, and in fact, got less interesting. Also, with recent On Faith topics such as whether prayers is right to be called for by politicians, what to thank for on Thanksgiving, which church the Obamas should go to, surely I am not salivating give my two cents’ worth on those “issues”? Besides, the Georgetown blog is less insane than the On Faith main threads.
As for Thailand, yes, I am concerned too. The Thai economy is getting additional beatings due to the political discords there on top of the globalised financial squeeze and contracting economies of more and more countries every day. Malaysia’s latest recent public ruckus on a fatwa issued by the National Fatwa Council to declare yoga as haram for Muslims is small potato compared to what is happening in Thailand. Malaysians wage most of their battles and wars now in the blogs, not in the streets, not at airports, not by shooting at one another as yet, as happened in Thailand.
The grant given to you was written to provide nonsectarian social welfare services? Now, that sounds more productive and beneficial than grants given to study the mating habit of orangutans to understand, compare or relate it to the mating habits of homo sapiens.
If you are off On Faith for a while, I will miss your thought provoking, and sometimes provocative and contentious posts. : )
My best to you and all your endeavours
J
Posted by: Jihadist | November 26, 2008 6:12 PM
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Hmmm, what the Reality Challenged and Obfuscating Jihadist does not mention is that she is member of one of the largest religious racist groups i.e. the Sunni Muslims.
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | November 26, 2008 5:56 PM
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O, yes---A salaamu alaikum Jihadist-
I've been to mosques in America from coast to coast, and over here, women are not even encouraged to cover their heads at all-
If THEY bring it up, and ask- then we find one for them- but only if THEY bring it up.
Some smaller ethnic mosques sort of enforce it- but those aren't really the ones that American women (or basically any one who isn't in their insular group) are visiting in general anyway.
Posted by: VICTORIA | November 26, 2008 5:49 PM
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I think it is pretty obvious that Z has hostile intentions towards America, that includes ALL who reside within her borders- Jews, Christians, and Muslims.
There is unquestionably NO appeal to American Muslims- from Z's twisted perspectve, Muslims in America are knowingly and consciously betraying Islam, and far guiltier than Christians or Jews.
Thus far more deserving of real and focused hatred.
I spent years living in Chicago, and 1 of them on the South Side a few blocks from Farakhan's residence- in my 5 years there, all of my core lady friends were all ex-NOI(Nation of Islam)
The entire premise of the racism in NOI- is one line from the Qur'an, Sura 20:102
"The Day when the Trumpet wil be blown, that Day we shall gather the Mujrimun (disbelievers etc) blue or blind-eyed with thirst."
Some Qur'ans also translate it as white eyed with terror.
The NOI version has it as blue eyed demons.
Believe me, I have had this discussion many many times with old NOI.
The countless places in Qur'an and sunnah where raicism is flat out forbidden does not seem o counter their desire for this version to be the true one.
If one is truly determined to be a racist, or a terorist, one will find a way to justify their own dark hearts.
They are a fading element, Warith Deen (son of Elijah) rejected the racism inherent in NOI- and led the (almost entire) movement into the fold of mainstream Islam.
I don't much have an interest in specifically who Al-Q is hating. But more WHY they hate them.
Peace all- Happy Thanksgiving to all those celebrating our national day of overindulgence and massive consumption!
Posted by: VICTORIA | November 26, 2008 5:45 PM
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Hello Sparrow4,
I never knew you are in an interracial marriage. If it was hard for my parents, they never show nor say it. In the Netherlands, they received some stares but few comments. In Indonesia, they received stares and some comments, including people kidding my father that Indonesian women are not good enough for him.
From my own particular personal experience, “half-breeds” that resulted from inter-marriage seems to have an easier time than their parents, and in fact, is tried to be claimed by both sides of the different ethnic in-laws as theirs. Racial identity is not an issue for the offspring as much as religious identity is for the in-laws who practiced particular faiths. In the end, I made my own choice on belief, ethnicity and marriage.
Some aspects of religious and ethnic identification are muddier. So, by some definitions or assertions, I am, perhaps, Jewish in having a Jewish maternal grandmother. I am, perhaps, a lapsed Catholic in having a Catholic maternal grandfather. I am, perhaps, an agnostic apostate in having freethinking parents. Perhaps I am also a non-practicing Christian, a secular Jew, a spiritual atheist. But, simply saying I'm Muslim is concise and true. Saying I’m Malaysian is concise and true too.
Best regards
J
Posted by: Jihadist | November 26, 2008 5:28 PM
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Jihadist,
I so wish I could share with you the name of the journal. Unfortunately, it will be published under my full name, and like you, I must protect my privacy.
I do wish you'd consider signing in though. I have done so, and have experienced no problems. The grant was written to provide nonsectarian social welfare services. I'm not professionally equipped to provide them, and wanted no part of it, wished to turn it over to others completely, but that wouldn't wash with the funding source.
Christopher Hitchens, btw., is no Jew. (I know about his mother.) IMHO, he's a simple alcoholic hysteric, not even credible as an atheist. Later for him.
Anyway, I'm outta here for awhile. Too much work and too much craziness on this blog. That is why I wish you'd consider signing on. You could post on other threads, then. I don't know how you feel about Thailand, but it's heating up horribly and some publicity is eeking out, even through WaPo.
My Thai working group is panicking. They are also very worried about developments in your country. People need to know.
All the best to you, my friend!
Farnaz
Posted by: Farnaz | November 26, 2008 5:25 PM
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Posted by: Anonymous | November 26, 2008 4:14 PM
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And who is today's largest group of religious racists??
The 800 million Sunni Muslims whose hate of the 200 million Shiite Muslims borders on the Nazi's hate of the Jews.
To wit:
From: http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/02/03/iraq.cleric.ap/index.html
"Al-Sistani was apparently referring to Abdullah bin Jabrain, a key member of Saudi Arabia's clerical establishment, who last month joined a chorus of other senior figures from the hardline Wahhabi school of Sunni Islam that regards Shiites as infidels.
Bin Jabrain described Shiites as "the most vicious enemy of Muslims."
And why are our troops still in Iraq? The 24/7 blood-letting, "refugee making" civil war between the Muslim Sunnis supported by the Saudi Arabia "Wannabees" and the Muslim Shiites supported by the terror theocracy of Iran whose significantly stupid ancient koranic feud continues over whose "spiritual leader" is the direct descendent of one hallucinating, womanizing, warmongering Arab named Mohammed!!!
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | November 26, 2008 3:25 PM
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Jihadist- it seems that as a free people we Americans have all sorts of anti-everything. It seems in that we have equality :-)
I'm always taken by surprise when someone comes right out and makes blatantly racist or antisemitic remarks without hesitation. I got a lot of antisemitic comments from the many evangelicals who came to NYC as volunteers at Ground Zero. Including one who insisted "the Jews did it." I spent a lot of time being rather vocal about what I thought of the evangelicals there. And a lot of time thanking the many wonderful volunteers who did come with open hearts and parked their relgion (not their faith) at the door.
Having been 18 years in an interracial marriage, I can't begin to tell you the horrible comments thrown our way by perfect strangers.
I think from reading the posts on the many threads, it seems most of us have a backstory, most of us have experienced prejudice and bias, and other than the few fundamentalist ranters, we come here to have a dialogue, no matter how contentious or angry it gets. We're still trying to talk and that's a very hopeful thing.
Posted by: sparrow4 | November 26, 2008 3:13 PM
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Hello Farnaz,
You : “We do not look to Emmanuel's religion, to Hilary's, etc. The Ethiopian Jews, the Sudanese being murdered in Egypt do not look at the religion of Emmanuel.”
I can’t say all people don’t look at Emanuel’s religion, or ethnicity as the case may be for those who identified themselves as Jewish, even those who stated themselves to be non-believers. Even Christopher Hitchens if I recall correctly. It seem to matter for some Jewish Americans who saw one of their own as Obama’s Chief of Staff. It seem to matter for some Muslims who think that will affect the thrust of America’s policy in the Middle East. Just as it matters that Obama is the first black (never mind he is really mixed race) American President-elect, especially for African-Americans, other Americans, and the whole world.
And there was a flap over whether Obama is Muslim or Crypto Muslim. I am not sure if I should regard this as the same concerns which some Americans have when Catholic Kennedy seek the Presidency. And yes, I agree with you that one’s faith or ethnicity does not necessarily colour one’s stance and approach on temporal issues.
My congratulations to you in getting the grant and what you intend to do with it. Spreading it around is generous. And congratulations to you too for having one of your articles accepted for publication. Not sharing with us the name of the article and publication?
And the Thais are in a state of discord which has nothing to do with race and religion, but urban-rural differences, class differences, values and ethics differences on governance. A case of political-social-economic war, not culture war, not religious war.
Obviously, if there is no justness, there will be no peace, even among those of the same faith group, even among those of the same ethnic group.
Best
J
Posted by: Jihadist | November 26, 2008 12:18 PM
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Hello Sparrow4:
You : “I wish I could say there wasn't a great deal of anti-Muslim feeling in this country but I would be lying.”
I wish I could say the same thing for my country too. There are Muslims who are racists and religious chauvinists, and there non-Muslims who are too. And they are the noisiest and most demanding ones. But, fortunately, most seem wary and weary of extremism and jingoism by both sides.
Thank God for the blogosphere that are alternate channels for real discourse and voices of dissent which is quite effective in causing pause for both the government and the religious authorities on their actions.
I think the moderates on race and religion are waking up to push back the religious and racial extremists over here, belatedly, but better late than never, and the blogs really helps.
Best regards
J
Posted by: Jihadist | November 26, 2008 12:12 PM
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Peace - the word evokes the simplest and most cherished dream of humanity. Peace is, and has always been, the ultimate human aspiration. And yet our history overwhelmingly shows that while we speak incessantly of peace, our actions tell a very different story.
-- Javier Perez de Cuellar
Posted by: Anonymous | November 26, 2008 11:34 AM
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All the countries should seriously study the
history and fate of former and present U S allies- the world is littered with the carcasses of their people.
only a few years ago they were shaking hands with Saddam Hussain and a little before they were doing it with the mujahideen. Pakistan, Iran, Indonesia, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, chile, other countries in Latin America and Africa. Look what happened to Argentina. And the former U S S R.
If you are trying yourselves into an intricate economic and strategic web - then you are in, there is no way out. You are in the belly of the beast. Once you're there, you eat predigested pap. you behave. you do what you're told, buy what you're sold. If you disobey, you're in trouble.
- Arundhti Roy
Posted by: Anonymous | November 26, 2008 11:16 AM
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Ukba,
It is a small world. My father's closes friend was Tunisian. We are Persian, and how they met is a long story. He too came to the US, and he was an uncle to me. He died a few years ago, and when he left us, it broke our hearts. Of course, we are still close to his family.
Just this September, I met the first Tunisian person outside of his family, and we have become friends. She is a moderately religious person, but I have learned a great deal from her. It is interesting, since my closes friend is a Pakistani Muslim, who lives in Islamabad. The differences in their practices, though they are both Sunni are fascinating.
I have learned a great deal from this woman. My father's friend was fluent in French as was my father, this woman, and yours truly. Yet she tells me that now French is being banned in parts of Tunisia, which doesn't surprise me.
I pray for peace for all Palestinians and Israelis, for the end of all this horror. I have turned to the Bahai and the Thai, because the situation is so desperate and they have no bargaining chips, certainly not the Bahai.
Peace, Ukba. It is the greatest treasure, no?
Posted by: Farnaz | November 25, 2008 10:41 PM
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Farnaz,
I feel some connection with you there. I have to admit I have a soft spot for Jewish people, if you can believe that, coming from a Muslim person. We just come to the table from different point of views.
I grew up in Tunisia, and I am quiet familiar with that mess in the Middle East. I keep myself informed about that area and its problems by reading from different sources.
After college, I worked in Tunisia a couple of years for a galvanization plant that was owned by a Jewish person. He was nice and I liked him very much; he went the extra mile for me and I appreciated that. He took us one time to a christmas dinner organized by the US embassy in Tunisia which was nice.
In college I came across a lot of people from Palestine and recently I met a Palestinian family here. I also met some nice Jewish people here in the deep South if you can imagine that.
Peace
Posted by: Ukba | November 25, 2008 10:09 PM
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Peace to you, Ukba. You got it right. There are millions of people in desperate trouble even as we speak. The causes are complex. Some get attention, but only if there is a profit motive involved one way or another. The Thai are finally getting attention, but it may be too late. It is getting near the breaking point for the Bahai. I could go on and on and on.
There is no reason for competitive victimology. There is no excuse for racism. I was quite serious when I asked you about how many Palesitinians you know. I know one of the wealthiest families there. I can't go into too much depth because they are easily identified. They own a great deal of property in the US and elsewhere. They speak volumes about what is occurring there.
I also know Palesinian and Egyptian Christians. They too have their stories, as do Northern Israeli Jewish orphans of African, Middle Eastern, and European descent. And then there are us three million. What I saw with my own eyes I wish no one will ever see, but they are seeing it as I write.
Mark my words. If someone doesn't get to the Bahai soon, there will be no Bahai to get too. Keep your eye on Thailand.
Instead of racializing, why do we not look to help. There are ways, web sites, Congressmen and Senators. My senator Hillary Clinton helped two of my students, one a Palestinian Muslim, the other a Chilean Catholic to remain in this country and complete their educations. I am working with a Thai organization and a Bahai group right now. I don't know what we'll accomplish, but I'm sick of witnessing history.
Watching death. I don't want to see it anymore.
Peace to you, UKba, and to us all.
Posted by: Farnaz | November 25, 2008 9:42 PM
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I am not going to stoop down to your level of childish name calling. I have no ill will toward you.
יברכך יהוה וישמרך׃
יאר יהוה פניו אליך ויחנך׃
ישא יהוה פניו אליך וישם לך שלום׃
I hope I got that right.
shalome
Posted by: ukba | November 25, 2008 9:29 PM
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Ukba,
No, moron. The three million is CONSERVATIVE. Read my post, and see dictionary. Have mommie help you do the research or locate one of the many bibliographies I posted on this blog, which include links to numerous sites on this. (That way you won't have to trouble with pages, and having Mommie cart you over to the library.)
Ukba, if after split brain surgery, your understanding improves, contemplate why you would have thought that I would be your only source of information on this. Pity the poor Bahai, the Palestinian Christians, the Thai, et al, who depend on brothers and sisters, like your morally and intellectually depleted self.
It is you who have no shame, only because that involves a brain.
I can't help you, my foolish friend, but there are those I can.
Later for you.
Posted by: Farnaz | November 25, 2008 9:10 PM
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I thought so, the three million is a lie. Have you no shame.
Posted by: ukba | November 25, 2008 9:02 PM
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Ukba,
I didn't read your whole post because I know your game too well, and because I figured you be following me around with your imperialist racist garbage. There were one million dispossessed from IRan alone. The three million figure is conservative. People have children. And there are other ethnic groups as well.
As for the Palestinians, yes, I'm concerned, but then I know Palestinians, both Muslim and Christian, from Palestine, and from Egypt, and from Lebanon.
You on the other hand know nothing and no one. You are a hot air balloon, and one day, you may just find someone with a pin waiting to let it all out. In the meantime blog away.
Your lies will not change the truth. You grab no attention because you have no attention and therefore no ability to communicate.
I'm outta here.
Posted by: Farnaz | November 25, 2008 8:34 PM
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The last comment was mine
Posted by: Ukba | November 25, 2008 8:22 PM
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"We three million, our dead and tortured...",
I saw the three million number quite often stated by you to grab attention to the plight of Jewish refugees since the creation of Israel in 1948. First of all according to Jewish sources in that year there were about 856, 000 Jews living in different parts of the Middle East and North Africa. More than three quarter of them settled in Israel. Fom what I read there was massive expulsion of Jews from some Arab states. Obviously there some who left by choice because they wanted to live in the newly created Jewish state. Those who were forced to leave their homes were definetly wronged and it's a shame that forced expulsion took place. What I want to know is where did you get the number of three million. It is more three time than the official total number of the Jewish people who lived in that area during the conflict. If you don't mind give us some sources to check.
On the hand, because of that same conflict, many Arabs were forced to leave their homes in what is now called Israel too. According to united Nations document: "As a result of the war, many Palestinian refugees, defined by the United Nations as a person whose “normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict,” lived in refugee camps or permanent communities. The number of Palestinian refugees was about 711,000 in 1950 and has grown to over 4 million refugees in 2002."
Right now the Palestinian population lives in a state of complete despair, inside a big jail and the zionist have have the keys. They live as aliens in their homes under a brutal occupation with no reguard for basic human rights. You cannot compare your life to the state of the Palestinian refugees now. I'll bet anyone of them would change places with you in a heart beat.
So, why is it you always complain about the plight of the Jewish people and never mention anything about the Palestinians who were forced to leave their homes and live as refugees for sixty years now. Aren't they human beings too or is it only the Jews that matter; don't the palestinians have rights too. Some of them even still have the keys to their homes they left those years ago. If you are truly a humanist and really care about people in general why the total silence on the Palestinian refugee problem created by the same Jewish state. Or are you just another tribalist who says my tribe is always right no matter what. It just begs the question why does everything has to always be about you. Maybe it is just a narcissitic thing with you.
Posted by: Anonymous | November 25, 2008 8:21 PM
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jihadist- I can say for myself and my family, we got a great kick out of seeing Obama praying with Jews- it was an extremely important election in terms of black-Jewish relations in this country. American Jews, by almost 80% voted for him. Our relationships have been cantankerous for the most part, over the last few decades, but there has always been an underlying recognition that neither one of us can afford to relax our vigilance over the civil rights of anyone.
"As for what you stated on American reaction to the the insults, i.e. "Obama is "our" president-elect, "our" terrorist, "our" faux Muslim.", now, that is very understandable to this Malaysian, but I do hope it is not translated into hatred of all Muslims instead of to just Al-Q and other terrorist groups that targetted America and Americans." -jihadist
I wish I could say there wasn't a great deal of anti-Muslim feeling in this country but I would be lying. But on the upside, i think somethings have changed, are changing. Colin Powell's statement was stunning, and a few years ago would have evinced howls of outrage from the flag-wavers and our own self-described defenders of the realm. I think the results of this election was as much due to Obama as to the 80% who felt we had gone off course, and disliked what we were becoming.
But that's just generalities, on the ground racism is still very real- I just think that at this juncture people are tried of the Bushies and their policies, and really wanting a new direction. there are always hatemongers on all sides. There's enough blame on all sides to go around. at some point you just take a leap of faith look for those who would rather build bridges than blow them up. I guess the important thing is that you just don't stop looking. Just my view.
Posted by: sparrow4 | November 25, 2008 8:16 PM
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"More than any tauntings by Al-Q, it should be of more concern that Muslim blogs are already pointing out the background of Rahm Emanuel, Obama's chief of staff, as indication that US policy in the Middle East will remain the same"
I know. That was my point. We three million, our dead and tortured do not look to the religions of US statesmen when considering what hope there may be for us. I can tell you the same is true for Muslims in many Middle East countries, Jordanian Palestinians, Egyptian Palestinians, Israeli Jews, the few Jews left in the Middle East, Middle East Chrsitians, Hindus, one million-plus Bahai, animists, etc., the hideously persecuted Christians of Pakistan.
We do not look to Emmanuel's religion, to Hilary's, etc. The Ethiopian Jews, the Sudanese being murdered in Egypt do not look at the religion of Emmanuel.
Those who do are racist. That is my point quite simply. The word is antisemitism. Emmanuel may be Jewish but he will not help those I mention above, will not help the Jordanian Palestinians, the Palistinian Christians, the tortured Jews in the North of Israel, bombed by Greater syria, aka, Lebanaon. Nor would any Muslim or Christian. We know that.
Again, those who are anti-Jewish racists are anti-Jewish racists, regardless of their religious beliefs and complections. Racists are racists. The same goes for persons who discriminate against Muslims.
The bit about democracy was not in my post and is irrelevant to this discussion as far as I can see. I demonstrated agains the war in Iraq as did many others. It was an insane gesture. I have also protested on these threads and elsewhere about the news blackout in Iraq and Afghanistan, Northern Israel, etc.
On the non-racist front, this week is turning out quite well. I just was awarded a very large grant for a start-up program to provide social welfare services to the needy on a non-sectarian basis. I want nothing from this grant as I made clear, and will be turning it over to the best people in several fields. I've agreed to stay on in an oversight capacity, part time for little money and a great deal of hope.
An article of mine was accepted for publication in a very well known Mid-East Studies journal, one of the few not subsidized by Exxon Mobile. I have written as myself, a dispossed Persian Jewish witness.
All good luck to you, Jihadist!
Farnaz
Posted by: Farnaz | November 25, 2008 5:44 PM
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Yeah, that about shows the mentality.
Let's fence off Meggido, put all the monotheist extremists in there with the prophesized bronze pointies, and let em fight it out.
I'm sure Pay-Per-View will finance it, and then we can all look at the thing (You do realize, people, that glorious holiness doesn't keep your bowels from voiding) instead of worshipping it, hurl in utter revulsion, and shut the door behind us on this apocalyptic war nonsense.
*spit.*
Better things to do, I assure you.
Posted by: Paganplace | November 25, 2008 5:31 PM
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And who are today's largest group of religious racists??
The 800 million Sunni Muslims whose hate of the 200 million Shiite Muslims borders on the Nazi's hate of the Jews.
To wit:
From: http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/02/03/iraq.cleric.ap/index.html
"Al-Sistani was apparently referring to Abdullah bin Jabrain, a key member of Saudi Arabia's clerical establishment, who last month joined a chorus of other senior figures from the hardline Wahhabi school of Sunni Islam that regards Shiites as infidels.
Bin Jabrain described Shiites as "the most vicious enemy of Muslims."
And why are our troops still in Iraq? The 24/7 blood-letting, "refugee making" civil war between the Muslim Sunnis supported by the Saudi Arabia "Wannabees" and the Muslim Shiites supported by the terror theocracy of Iran whose significantly stupid ancient koranic feud continues over whose "spiritual leader" is the direct descendent of one hallucinating, womanizing, warmongering Arab named Mohammed!!!
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | November 25, 2008 4:57 PM
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Hello Jihadist,
The comments about Emmanuel are obviously racist so that there is no point in discussing them. Many Muslims, over one million Bahai, Hindus, Christians, the few remaining Jews throughout the Middle East would like to see a change in policy, but do not seem to hold out much hope.
The three million in exile, like me, would like to see change, but we, too, hold out little hope, The difference is we don't attribute our hopelessness to the religious backgrounds of those in the cabinet.
Cheers!
Farnaz
Posted by: Farnaz | November 25, 2008 4:05 PM
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Hello Farnaz,
Yes, non-racism is good on paper, in theory, but in reality, personal to holder regardless of race and religion. Al-Q has alway be political laced with religious language and references, and served with dollops of terrorism. They can't afford to be "racists" in practice when they are trying to recruit Muslims from Africa to Asia to their cause.
As for Muslim movements for change in the Islamic world, including for democracy and human rights, it is all localised and of immediate concern, while Al-Q seek to globalise conflicts. I would seperate Muslims' call for change in governance and for more freedom in their respective countries from Al-Q's political and politicised war against the US.
The fact remains that Muslims are dismayed or angered by Bush's policies in the Middle East, and to see Obama as a hope for "change" too in being more just and equitable in resolving the Middle East conflicts. And we can certainly do without Mubarak, and it would be lovely to Saudi Arabia having a Parliament etc.
More than any tauntings by Al-Q, it should be of more concern that Muslim blogs are already pointing out the background of Rahm Emanuel, Obama's chief of staff, as indication that US policy in the Middle East will remain the same. But, we will have to wait and see if this is true. That is what Al-Q's No. 2, Z, tried to exploit in stating it would be the same US. Military interventions/occupations as well as supporting repressive Muslim regimes in the Middle East gives Al-Q much reason for existing as a group, for exploiting sentiments, and for venting in words and acts of terrorism against regarded enemies.
Forcing democracy in the Middle East by military interventions or occupation is an idea that needs to be reconsidered, obviously. A little nudging, or a full tilt US imposition of freedom and democracy can cost people so much with their lives and in their life. It would take a generation, at least, for people to be grateful. If democracy brings them the desired outcome and they forgot or forgive the price of the "birth pangs" in bringing freedom and democracy.
"God will not change the fate of any people unless they change themselves."
Got to got and look at stats and markets.
Regards
J
Posted by: Jihadist | November 25, 2008 3:55 PM
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Hello Athena4,
Frankly, I was not paying attention to what Al-Q's No. 2, was saying about Obama. It's the current financial and economic situation that absorbed me more. I am not that rosy tinted on Obama and what he can do in four or eight years to resolve everything from the Middle East crisis to the enviroment to a most just global financial and economic situation.
But, having read what Mr. Daniel Brumberg wrote, I look up the full text of the Z statement. You do recall that Al-Q started out calling for the Saudi government not to have American troops on their soil among others. They are, in a way, ultra-Arab nationalists if look at that.
The latest statement by Z also called, or challenged, the US/Obama not to send troops to Afghanistan (reminding what happened in Iraq and what happened to the Soviets in Afghanistan); saying the US is hypocritical in its stance towards Israel and continued hostility towards Islam and the Muslim world; that Bush achieved nothing and was transfering it to Obama; and there is the usual point to continue to fight against the "Crusaders" as expansionists/imperialists; and that America is evil and greedy etc. for tresasures/resources in Muslim lands and not to interfere in Muslim states.
Not much new in Al-Q's stament from their previous ones, but, can we read the Al-Q's call for non-interference by US as for the US not to support repressive Muslim regimes? Which would be really odd and ironical?
Regards
J
Posted by: Jihadist | November 25, 2008 3:44 PM
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Athena4:
Great post! Right now, I'd be happy to see Mubarak go the way of all murdering dictators. I'd be happy if Egypt fed its starving people, stopped killing Sudanese escaping there, and stopped persecuting the minorities, including Palestinians and women. An end to FGM would be good.
Also good would be Jordan finally giving equal rights to its Palestinian citizens who constitute the majority.
One day, I hope we will see a Palesinian woman president. One day I hope we will see a brown Persian Jewish woman, perhaps my daughter, as president.
Best,
Farnaz
Posted by: Farnaz | November 25, 2008 3:10 PM
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Hello Jihadist,
On Malcom X: By the time he went to Hajj, he had become increasingly disillusioned with the Nation of Islam, whose spokesperson, not leader he was. Elijah Mohammed's hypocrisy, philandering, drinking, corruption disgusted Malcolm and he was ready to leave. At Hajj, which has changed a great deal since Malcolm's time, he saw the races together and came to a different understanding of Islam and race. Of course, like Judaism and Christianity, Islam is in theory, but not in fact, color blind.
He gave up the NIS version and embraced Islam. Here in the US the insanity about Obama's religion has come from extremist factions. As I have posted, my own undergraduates asked the same question I did, about Obama's faith or lack thereof: Who cares? Let him be Muslim, Animist, Bahai, Hindu, Catholic, Jewish, Protestant, atheist, agnostic...
The antisemitism of the Z's post, the racism remains. What can you say? And again, there have been cartoons about Orthodox Jews in North America, and all over the world, offensive art about Catholics. Don't like it, but there you have it.
Best,
Farnaz
Posted by: Farnaz | November 25, 2008 3:06 PM
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I hate to respond to my own post, but I just saw an article that may lend some understanding as to why Zawahiri slammed Obama. It has less to do with whether Obama is or is not a Moslem, and more to do with America offering an alternative to the model of Islamic separatists vs. secular autocrats in the Middle East.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/daoudkuttab/message/428
... But the paranoia of the Mubarak regime is a reflection of the concern by many Arab autocrats about the Obama euphoria empowering those calling for change. Obama's victory on the change mantra was not lost to people around the world yearning for political reform.
Jordan's leading blogger Mohammad Omar (www.mohomar.com) says that the victory of the son of a Kenyan immigrant gives minorities, immigrants and unrepresented groups hope. Imagine a Palestinian who was born in Jordan fifty or sixty years ago and has tried very hard to be part of the political scene looking at the son of an immigrant in America being elected to the top executive position. The winds of hope don't stop at the American shores, Omar insists.
Some of the same skeptics are now optimistic. After seeing America at its best, there is a renewed sense of confidence in American-style democracy throughout the world. However, this growing confidence about the possibility of political reform can turn into a disaster if change does in fact stay limited to the American shores. If young reformers in the Arab region are again crushed after the change candidate takes power in Washington, their hopes for genuine reform in the Arab world will be set back for years, once again.
Posted by: Athena4 | November 25, 2008 2:36 PM
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That whole diatribe just shows Zawahiri's ignorance about America, and Islam in America. There's a big difference between traditional Islam and the made-in-America Nation of Islam. NoI is, as I understand it, an outgrowth of the civil rights and Black Pride movements of the '60's and '70's. Certainly you don't see traditional Moslem men walking around wearing bow ties too often. :D Malcolm X woke up to the fact that Islam is more than a racial identity thing when he went to the Hajj and mingled with Moslems of all races. He renounced violence, which ultimately got him killed. Zawahiri ought to rent the movie "Malcolm X" before he makes silly statements. Then again, does Netflix deliver to his cave?
Posted by: Athena4 | November 25, 2008 2:21 PM
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Hello Farnaz,
Thanks for your post.
Z ‘s intention is not to win advocates in the US. After all, the US is the enemy of Al-Q. He seems to be exploiting the wounds of Americans on the question on race and religion as a political baggage that still festers, just as Al-Q did with Muslims as "Islamic world vs America" and all the emotional and political baggage it connotes.
This is also another provocation of Americans and America by Z to drag them into another conflict, another war with another state, especially a Muslim state. That would get Al-Q more recruits, as they did, when the US invaded and occupied Iraq instead of hunting Al-Q to the ground in Afghanistan. As you know, Muslims in Iraq are turning against Al-Q, and they needed a new “cause” and recruits. So, do not give them any cause to gain recruits.
As you know too, Muslims do insist on non-Muslim women and men to dress decently when visiting a mosque – to cover their bodies as much as possible, and for women to cover their hair too. Same for any man, Jewish or otherwise, in an Orthodox Jewish synagogue wear a kippah. What Z is getting at, is of course, to associate Obama with the Jewish community. I do recall that Obama, during his campaign, made it a point to never go into any mosques lest the non-Muslim Americans associate him, or give “proof “ that he is a Muslim, or crypto Muslim. It would seem that it has come to this - Obama can’t be seen in a mosque for some Americans. Obama can’t be seen in a synagogue for some Muslims. Anti-Semites and Islamophobes are in a slinging match..
As for Malcolm X, the most important point the Z misses is that, Malcolm X gave up the radicalism, extremism, racism and separatism of the Nation of Islam/Black Muslims before he was killed. Perhaps we should send Z a copy of “The Authobiography of Malcolm X”. The chapter on his Hajj is telling on when he also comes to terms with race. Never mind the fact that the people of various colours during the Hajj are Muslims, but it made him see the unity of purpose in the diversity of people and made him dissociate himself from the racism and separatism espoused by the Nation of Islam then.
Regards,
J
Posted by: Jihadist | November 25, 2008 12:45 PM
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Hello Sparrow4,
I am learning a bit more on levels and shades of anti-Jewishness. The version of anti-Jewish Muslims are crude and very obvious, but those in the west are couched in more "sophisticated" terms.
I am curious to see how Jews regard the part of Obama praying with Orthodox Jews. As you know, racism and bigotry is like humour. One can tell jokes about one's own group, but God forbid if anyone outside the group should make jokes about us that can be either interpreted or twisted as slurs or insults.
As for Al-Q, they do not know what they are doing in driving wedges between people. In one blast, they insulted Christians, Jews and Muslims to get all to rile against one another. Trying to kill three birds with one stone, but, perhaps not accounting the three birds may go after them.
As for the Danish cartoons, just like "Satanic Verses", it was a grand opportunity for self-designated champions of "our culture" and "our civilisation" and "our values" on both sides to politicised the issues as never be yielded to the other due to belief in the superiority of one set of values and beliefs over the other.
As for what you stated on American reaction to the the insults, i.e. "Obama is "our" president-elect, "our" terrorist, "our" faux Muslim.", now, that is very understandable to this Malaysian, but I do hope it is not translated into hatred of all Muslims instead of to just Al-Q and other terrorist groups that targetted America and Americans. Not that the terrorist groups don't target Muslims who don't share their belief and cause, and more Muslims died from their acts of terrorism as intimidations and forcing of their cause.
It does seem that Al-Q has succeeded where Obama has thus far, nor fully achieved - to unite all Americans in their love for their country, their institutions, their values :)
Regards
J
Posted by: Jihadist | November 25, 2008 12:38 PM
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For the actual body count in Iraq, see
1. http://news.nationaljournal.com/articles/databomb/index.htm
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | November 25, 2008 12:35 PM
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Al queda and United States are equally dangerous to the world peace and stability. World would be a better place live in without them
Posted by: Anonymous | November 25, 2008 12:05 PM
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Millions of Iraqi muslims including women and children were killed in Iraq by American forces. This article will only divert attention from bigger crimes
Posted by: Anonymous | November 25, 2008 11:51 AM
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Jihadist,
- Is Al-Q's images of a Yarmulke-clad Obama praying with white bearded Orthodox Jews any better or any worse than the Danish cartoons of the Prophet?
**********************
I'm not following you here. Anon is correct in saying that the intent is racist on the part of Zawahari (see Anon's post) but it is appropriate for any man in an Orthodox Jewish synagogue to wear a kippah. Obviously, you understand the racist intent of Z, or you wouldn't have asked the question you do.
In this country and in Europe, there are now and have been endless numbers of satirical cartoons involving Orthodox Jews. There have been art exhibits offensive to Jews and Catholics. And not only in this country, but in others, including Denmark, as you probably know. And? So? Point?
Zawahari's intent is what is at issue. As for what you consider the racism in his broadcast (I consider antisemitism to be racism), the answer is yes, in this country, it's considered worse than all the offenses you mention. Much worse and the reason lies in our history, and the discourse that surrounds it, including the civil rights movement, as you no doubt know.
If Z hoped to win advocates here, he's in for a big surprise. It is true that Malcolm found God at Mecca. Had he lived longer, had he seen the anti-black racism, the colorism among Muslims in the Middle East, in Asia, in the US, in Europe as I have, and as I imagine you have, he would have had to come to terms with it. As well, Hajj has changed since Malcolm's time in ways he would not have approved of. That, too, he would have had to deal with.
Regards,
Farnaz
Posted by: Farnaz | November 25, 2008 2:35 AM
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jihadist- the picture of Obama praying with Orthodox Jews was probably intended to be insulting but in this respect Al Qaeda greatly misunderstands what the picture means to us. their intent is to makes Jews a wedge issue for American Muslims.
In terms of the cartoons in Denmark, in all honesty I have to say they are a different level of insult because they did attack Islam as a religion, although the intent was to show how Islam has been twisted by terrorists. I don't know much about Islam, but had that been about Judaism, I would have been furious. But at the same time I believe in freedom of speech and I know the intent of political cartoonists is to point out our foibles. So there is no good answer to that question.
I think American reaction to the the insults is territorial. Obama is "our" president-elect, "our" terrorist, "our" faux Muslim. In other words, it's ok for republicans to say those things because they're Americans, but not Al Qaeda. Hatred of Al Qaeda seems to unite us, although I wish we were united by our love of country and fellow man, rather than hatred of something.
Posted by: sparrow4 | November 25, 2008 1:00 AM
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Villifying Islam started with 9/11 as it showed what happens when Muslims take the literal words of the Worst Book Ever Written as "gospel".
Remove the myths from this book and the villifying will end.
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | November 24, 2008 11:34 PM
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I see that even some apparent anti-Obama Americans are now capitalising on Al-Q's No. 2 racist slur of Obama to justify it all as emanating from the Qur'an, and thus, to vilify Islam and Muslims. Never mind. Same old, same old.
Obviously, what Al-Q's No.2 said about Obama is a bait and it got the attention of Americans as they wanted. They may not know much of American history or Malcolm X, but they certainly knows politics and the price of war for the US in terms of financial, material, manpower, moral and morale cost. Don't get drag in where they want to go, but to hunt them down where they actually are.
That aside, why not some questions on this whole thing:
- Does it really matter to the Muslim world that Obama is black, or Christian, or both?
- Why do the American media highlighted on the racist aspects of what Al-Q's No. 2 said instead of other aspects, including a new face does not mean a change in America and American foreign policy?
- Is the Al-Q No. 2 racist slur on Obama any better or lesser than that said by some Americans of him - including him being Muslim, Crypto-Muslim, the AntiChrist among others?
- Is it all right for Obama to be a Christian but not a Muslim for Americans, but when Obama is accused of Al-Q's No. 2 of being a Muslim who deserted his faith to be a Christian, it is not all right?
- Is Al-Q's images of a Yarmulke-clad Obama praying with white bearded Orthodox Jews any better or any worse than the Danish cartoons of the Prophet?
- Why is only the racist and religious slur by Al-Q's No. 2 highlighted by the American media, but not other aspects, including him telling Muslims that a "new face" does not mean a different American President or America with regard to US foreign policy in the Muslim world?
J
Posted by: Jihadist | November 24, 2008 10:06 PM
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Zawahari is simply the breeding and brainwashed product of the Worst Book Ever Written i.e the koran.
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | November 24, 2008 6:06 PM
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The anti-Semitic underpinnings of this assertion--underscored in Al-Qaeda's images of a Yarmulke-clad Obama praying with white bearded Orthodox Jews!--are rejected by the vast majority of American Muslims and the organizations that represent them.
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Truthfully, I see nothing racist in this by itself. It is racist only in the context of the rest of Zawahari's presentation which is antisemtic, of course. It is also racist in the larger context of Islamism's anti-Jewish racist discourse, cinema, news media, etc., which is pervasive in the Arab world. But it is appropriate for anyone in a synagogue, any male, certainly, to wear a kipa. Had he ridden in on a camel with a towel around his head, well, that would have been inappropriate.
What is deceptive is the mildness of his anti-Christian rhetoric, whose actual purpose is to enlist Christians in his anti-Jewish racist Crusade and, in no way, should be understood as tolerance for Christians. (The persecution of Christians in Muslim lands says otherwise, the Qu'ranic view that those who see Christ as the Son of God will go to hell says otherwise.)
Historically, Zawahari's strategy has proven intelligent. America needs oil, and antisemitism unlike other racisms has been well tolerated by the AmeriChristians, as Islamists' know. They recall from where the Muslims obtained their antisemitic rhetoric, the EuroChristians, of course. Therefore, using antisemitism, i.e., there own weapon, to seduce them makes sense. This of course is not to condone anti-Jewish racism, which, of course is cretonism, at best.
As for the real Islamist view of Christians, it derives, in part, from the Qu'ran, which holds them to be idolotors for viewing Jesus as the Son of God, and claims they will go to hell for that reason. Christians are persecuted, martyred in Muslim countries, as we know. They are the sweepers of Pakistan, the poorest of the poor, as has been noted on this blog. That is not, however, in Zawahari's video. Physician, heal thyself.
Posted by: Anonymous | November 24, 2008 5:49 PM
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"As if any more disturbing details about the Mumbai massacre could emerge, it's now being reported that many of the victims were also tortured -- and no one more so than the Israelis killed in the Chabad house. DEBKAfile reports that Rivka Holtzberg, wife of the center's rabbi, Gavriel, was also six months pregnant, and that the toddler rescued from the house by his Indian nanny bore bruises indicating that the captors had beaten him."
http://worldnews.about.com/b/2008/12/02/signs-of-torture-on-mumbai-victims-especially-israelis.htm