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Last Debate: Avoiding God and Palin
If you knew absolutely nothing about the United States (but wanted to know) and predicated your quest for knowledge solely on the three 2008 presidential debates between John McCain and Barack Obama you might come to the conclusion that American politicians have no desire to infuse their politics with religion. Events like last night's encounter at Hofstra University were so bereft of reference to faith-based issues, you might conclude that the United States was France!
What does it all mean? It means that Faith and Values politicking is geared to a lucrative niche market. A politician does the God Talk when addressing certain constituencies--constituencies like White Evangelicals that retain a rather un-Gallic conception of the role religion should play in the public sphere.
Last night, we didn't even get as much as a "God Bless America" from our two candidates. So absent any of that, please permit me the following random observations:
The Unmentionable: Sarah Palin--Not once last night did Barack Obama pronounce the name of Alaska's governor. Although asked direct questions about her by Bob Schieffer, he referred to her simply as John McCain's "running mate."
After Obama's "lipstick" remark of a few weeks back (which was eagerly spun as a sexist slight by McCain surrogates) the campaign seems to have decided that relegating Palin to the realm of the unspeakable is the best way to go.
Perhaps the Obama team doesn't like a "match-up" in which the male and professorial Obama gets goaded into mixin' it up with the female and un-professorial populist. Ergo, Palin's very name becomes something of a tetragrammaton for the Democrats--albeit one they do not consider holy.
Obama's "eloquence"-McCain virtually plagiarized Hillary Clinton's oft-heard refrain that Obama sure sounds great, but lacks any substance. I remind you that as the Democratic primary dragged on in the spring many in the Party fretted that the extended contest would serve only to strengthen McCain. The Maverick's crafty handlers, it was feared, would study the weaponry which the Democrats used against one another and redeploy the most lethal arms in the general election.
Well, McCain's crafty handlers weren't that crafty. Arguments about duplicitous eloquence, about Ayers, about Wright, only surfaced in the past few weeks. McCain should have stressed these "character" issues in the summer, not 30 days before the election. In a similar vein, he should have neutralized the charge that he was George Bush's conjoined policy twin months ago. He finally got around to it last night. It was a great line, perfectly delivered. But six devastating months too late.
The Reaction Shot War: For the second debate in a row McCain lost the reaction-shot war (though he won the first half of the debate). Last week, he romped around the stage to no avail. This time around the split-screen permitted us to see McCain locked into a are-you-friggin' kiddin'-me sneer. Obama, for his part, oscillated between a smile that communicated "Oh Senator, you're so droll!" and traces of an (uncharacteristic) scowl in which he seemed to be saying "John, Puh-leeeeze!"
Joe the Plumber: Couldn't hurt--By the time you read this some enterprising journo will have interviewed Joe the Plumber. The American public will be apprised of everything from Joe's views on Darfur to his opinions on unilateral disarmament. Joe the Plumber ringtones will be available for purchase at the iTunes store.
Still, as gimmicky as it all was--and I have referred to the McCain team as the Harlem Globetrotters of modern presidential campaigning-- I wonder if Joe might represent McCain's best (and last) chance of getting on-message about the economy. If Joe is willing to play along and do some stumping with, let's say, the First Dude he could finally stanch the bleeding caused by McCain's inability to articulate a vision about the defining issue of 2008.
By Jacques Berlinerblau |
October 16, 2008; 1:12 AM ET
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Posted by: Anonymous | October 20, 2008 9:42 AM
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The opinion has been voiced by several bloggers. Professor Stevens-Arroyo should do all Americans a favor by converting to the Episcopal Church. He can continue to write his essays as he has written them, only the title of his blog needs to be changed to Episcopal America.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 20, 2008 9:39 AM
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Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,
We assume all those fatwa were a bit much for you to address in "one bite" so take one at a time for your renouncing of said idiocy. (We do wonder how one continues to be a Muslim with all those nutty, paranormal-based rules and fatwa).
"Sheik Sadeq Abdallah bin Al-Majed, leader of the Muslim Brotherhood in Sudan, issued a fatwa that prohibits vaccination of children claiming it is a conspiracy of the Jews and Freemasons."
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | October 20, 2008 9:16 AM
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quoting "The presidential debates were so bereft of reference to faith-based issues, you might conclude that the United States was France."
Instead of a french kiss, here in america we kiss ass.
Posted by: harold | October 20, 2008 8:29 AM
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Well. Have Muslims begun chanting
"DEATH TO CHINA"?
Wary of Islam, China Tightens a Vise of Rules
With prayers banned in public areas, private hajj trips not allowed, teaching of the Noble Qur'an not allowed in private and students and government officials forced to eat during Ramadan, China is enforcing laws and regulations restricting the practice of Islam.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/19/world/asia/19xinjiang.html?ref=world
Posted by: HMM HMM HMM | October 20, 2008 7:12 AM
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Essays from Libertarians for Life:
http://l4l.org/library/index.html#about
Abortion statistics and other data
by William Robert Johnston
last updated 15 October 2008
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/index.html
Compare rate of abortion vs social benefits vs abortion laws in each country, especially in Western Europe.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 20, 2008 6:59 AM
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Colin Powell-
Trolling for a position in a new administration.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 20, 2008 6:36 AM
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Based on what Mary Cunningham from London posted on Catholic America, people will vote for the economic policy that appeals to them most. Abortion will not be the deciding factor.
Unless false statistics is produced, the rate of abortion is not likely to decrease very much because most of the abortions (98%) are abortions of convenience, rather than for economic reasons. Only tougher laws will impact abortions of convenience.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 20, 2008 6:36 AM
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O Harold! A milder version of JJ you are. If you would like anyone to read your posts, please post a short comment appropriate to the discussion.
Not hard at all. Really.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 20, 2008 4:35 AM
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Interesting take on Colin Powell Victoria. Considering he was a Republican who had donated to Senator McCain's campaign and was even in the offing to be chosen as his running mate, switching sides only after victory has become clear for Senator Obama.........He had been provided with sufficient grounds not to support invasion of Iraq, by anti-war activists. He made a fool of himself at the UN with that now notorious speech in order to keep his political power in the Bush administration. Resigning was the more honorable thing he did.
Take politics with a pinch of salt. Don't create another demigod.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 20, 2008 4:29 AM
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Have you ever noticed the host of heaven and earth of god on the seventh day is Lamech and Noah.
Have you ever noticed Noah is begat on the eight day.
Don’t the so-called Christians have the son of god, Noah.
Have you ever noticed that Japheth, the son of man, is the eight begat and the gentiles call the eight day the lord’s day.
Is this not the father, the son, the holy ghost
Lamech, Noah, Japheth.
Does not Japheth have seven sons.
What are the elements of the so-called Christian churches?
Thus THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH WERE FINISHED, AND ALL THE HOST OF THEM.
And ON THE SEVENTH DAY GOD ENDED HIS WORK WHICH HE HAD MADE; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
LAMECH
NOAH
I said in mine heart concerning the estate of THE SONS OF MAN, that God might manifest them, and THAT THEY MIGHT SEE THAT THEY THEMSELVES ARE BEASTS.
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and THE SPIRIT OF THE BEAST THAT GOETH DOWNWARD TO THE EARTH?
Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; FOR THAT IS HIS PORTION: FOR WHO SHALL BRING HIM TO SEE WHAT SHALL BE AFTER HIM?
THE SONS OF MAN
THAT THEY MIGHT SEE THAT THEY THEMSELVES ARE BEASTS
THE SPIRIT OF THE BEAST THAT GOETH DOWNWARD TO THE EARTH?
FOR THAT IS HIS PORTION: FOR WHO SHALL BRING HIM TO SEE WHAT SHALL BE AFTER HIM?
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall THE SON OF MAN BE THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH.
Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, THAT ONE DAY IS WITH THE LORD AS A THOUSAND YEARS, AND A THOUSAND YEARS AS ONE DAY.
THE LORD IS NOT SLACK CONCERNING HIS PROMISE, as some men count slackness; BUT IS LONGSUFFERING TO US-ward, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH but that all should come to repentance.
BUT THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL COME AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and THE ELEMENTS SHALL MELT WITH FERVENT HEAT, THE EARTH ALSO AND THE WORKS THAT ARE THEREIN SHALL BE BURNED UP.
Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
Even so we, when we were children, were IN BONDAGE UNDER THE ELEMENTS OF THE WORLD:
IN BONDAGE UNDER THE ELEMENTS OF THE WORLD
THE SON OF MAN IS LORD EVEN OF THE SABBATH DAY
BUT THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL COME AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT
THE ELEMENTS SHALL MELT WITH FERVENT HEAT
THE EARTH ALSO AND THE WORKS THAT ARE THEREIN SHALL BE BURNED UP
ENOS
CAINAN
MAHALALEEL
JARED
ENOCH
METHUSELAH
LAMECH
NOAH
CAIN
ENOCH
IRAD
MEHUJAEL
METHUSAEL
LAMECH
NOAH
JAPHETH
GOD SHALL ENLARGE JAPHETH
THE SON OF MAN IS LORD EVEN OF THE SABBATH DAY
THE SON OF MAN SIT ON THE RIGHT HAND OF THE POWER OF GOD
The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.
When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
And CAIN went out from the presence of the Lord, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare ENOCH: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.
And unto Enoch was born IRAD: and Irad begat MEHUJAEL: and Mehujael begat METHUSAEL: and Methusael begat LAMECH.
And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.
And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle.
And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.
And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubalcain was Naamah.
And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt.
If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.
And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:
And he called his name NOAH, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the Lord hath cursed.
And Lamech lived after he begat Noah five hundred ninety and five years, and begat sons and daughters:
And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years: and he died.
And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat SHEM, HAM, and JAPHETH.
And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
AND HE SAID, CURSED BE CANAAN; A SERVANT OF SERVANTS SHALL HE BE UNTO HIS BRETHREN.
And he said, BLESSED BE THE LORD GOD OF SHEM; AND CANAAN SHALL BE HIS SERVANT.
GOD SHALL ENLARGE JAPHETH, AND HE SHALL DWELL IN THE TENTS OF SHEM; AND CANAAN SHALL BE HIS SERVANT.
CAIN
ENOCH
IRAD
MEHUJAEL
METHUSAEL
LAMECH
NOAH
JAPHETH
AND HE SAID, CURSED BE CANAAN; A SERVANT OF SERVANTS SHALL HE BE UNTO HIS BRETHREN.
GOD SHALL ENLARGE JAPHETH, AND HE SHALL DWELL IN THE TENTS OF SHEM; AND CANAAN SHALL BE HIS SERVANT.
BLESSED BE THE LORD GOD OF SHEM; AND CANAAN SHALL BE HIS SERVANT.
For THE SON OF MAN IS LORD EVEN OF THE SABBATH DAY.
But that ye may know that THE SON OF MAN HATH POWER ON EARTH to forgive sins
THE SON OF MAN CAME EATING AND DRINKING, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, A FRIEND OF PUBLICANS AND SINNERS. But wisdom is justified of her children.
VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, THERE BE SOME STANDING HERE, WHICH SHALL NOT TASTE OF DEATH, TILL THEY SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN HIS KINGDOM.
For AS JONAS WAS A SIGN UNTO THE NINEVITES, SO SHALL ALSO THE SON OF MAN BE TO THIS GENERATION.
Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
But THE SAME DAY THAT LOT WENT OUT OF SODOM IT RAINED FIRE AND BRIMSTONE FROM HEAVEN, AND DESTROYED THEM ALL.
Even THUS SHALL IT BE IN THE DAY WHEN THE SON OF MAN IS REVEALED.
Hereafter shall THE SON OF MAN SIT ON THE RIGHT HAND OF THE POWER OF GOD.
Then Jesus said unto them, VERILY, VERILY, I SAY UNTO YOU, EXCEPT YE EAT THE FLESH OF THE SON OF MAN, AND DRINK HIS BLOOD, YE HAVE NO LIFE IN YOU.
WHAT AND IF YE SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN ASCEND UP WHERE HE WAS BEFORE?
Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.
The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.
And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah.
And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.
By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.
This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos:
And Seth lived after he begat Enos eight hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters:
And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.
And ENOS lived ninety years, and begat CAINAN:
And Enos lived after he begat Cainan eight hundred and fifteen years, and begat sons and daughters:
And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died.
And Cainan lived seventy years and begat MAHALALEEL:
And Cainan lived after he begat Mahalaleel eight hundred and forty years, and begat sons and daughters:
And all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years: and he died.
And Mahalaleel lived sixty and five years, and begat JARED:
And Mahalaleel lived after he begat Jared eight hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters:
And all the days of Mahalaleel were eight hundred ninety and five years: and he died.
And Jared lived an hundred sixty and two years, and he begat ENOCH:
And Jared lived after he begat Enoch eight hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died.
And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat METHUSELAH:
And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
And Methuselah lived an hundred eighty and seven years, and begat LAMECH.
And Methuselah lived after he begat Lamech seven hundred eighty and two years, and begat sons and daughters:
And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.
And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:
And he called his name NOAH, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the Lord hath cursed.
And Lamech lived after he begat Noah five hundred ninety and five years, and begat sons and daughters:
And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years: and he died.
And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
ENOS
CAINAN
MAHALALEEL
JARED
ENOCH
METHUSELAH
LAMECH
NOAH
Posted by: harold | October 20, 2008 3:11 AM
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You're aware that Colin Powell is, and always has been, a Republican, right?
Posted by: Victoria | October 20, 2008 2:55 AM
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Maybe he was wisely waiting to see the depths and heights both men would go to in order to fully determine the true measure of their respective honor and characters.
Posted by: Victoria | October 20, 2008 2:54 AM
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Colin Powell, the independent politician who supports the winning ticket? Why did he wait so long to endorse Senator Obama? Why did he wait until he was sure nothing could go wrong? Opportunistic politics as usual?
Posted by: Anonymous | October 20, 2008 1:49 AM
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Correction:
What adoption really means for the child: it gets to live and take its chances in an imperfect world, rather than have its opportunity at life cut off by being killed and its little innocent body disposed off, unnamed and un-mourned in a garbage bag of the abortion clinic.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 19, 2008 10:45 PM
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With the Obama-Biden team sure to win the election, and FOCA to be enacted into law, anti-abortion groups have a long, tough battle ahead to win hearts and minds.
Anti-abortion groups should concentrate on educating their own religious groups first, with science and human rights arguments to support their religious views. They should ensure that at least members of their own religious groups are thoroughly informed (unlike Prof S-A for example) and are able to answer pro-abortionists with reason, without quoting religious dogma, which pro-abortionists would reject outright as not applying to their particular belief or whatever. More importantly, they should everything to ensure that members of their own group do not resort to abortion as a contraceptive measure.
Anti-abortion groups must step up their public education campaign, not by screaming abortion is immoral and killing abortionists or bombing abortion clinics, but my including detailed information about the child developing in the womb and why it has a right to its life according to the constitution, and that right to privacy must end where the life of an innocent third party is involved, and that innocent third party stands to lose its life in a most brutal fashion. It is important to emphasize that the woman had exercised her choice in the matter concerning her body: BEFORE SHE CONSENTED TO THE SEX THAT RESULTED IN THE PREGNANCY.
Anti-abortion groups must seek to influence sex education curriculum in schools in order to ensure that basic knowledge about fetal development is imparted along with information about responsibility, what adoption really means for the child - that it gets to live and take its chances in an imperfect world, rather than have its opportunity at life by being killed and disposed unnamed, un-mourned in a garbage bag of the abortion clinic. Advantages of abstinence in the very young, knowledge about contraception, STD, should be expected to be part of the curriculum. Current pro-abortion sex education remains silent on many important issues that the young have a right to know and older people have a responsibility to impart information on.
The legal stage should be prepared steadily and relentlessly for overturning Roe vs Wade, no matter how long it takes...like abolishing slavery.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 19, 2008 10:37 PM
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Thanks for the extremely general info-
I'm sure you have honored the criteria set by our gov.
Posted by: Victoria | October 19, 2008 9:20 PM
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Victoria - the VA hospital where your uncle was treated probably has a VA Benefits representative that could file the claim. Having worked in PA I know Pittsburg VA has a full compliment of services - if your uncle happens to be in that VA system.
Don't assume that a claim has been filed on his behalf - Agent Orange related claims are ongoing in the VA system and are based on a wide range of disabilities, including diabetes and various cancers.
Right or wrong isn't really the issue - if your uncle is entitled to a service connected benefit in the form of compensation, a claim needs to be filed with the VA regional office - which happens to be in Philadelphia. This could represent real money and various other benefits.
The cost of the Iraq war in terms of future disability benefits to be paid out can't be realistically calculated - it is huge beyond measure and you can believe that much. If you thought a trillion $$ in deficits was alot, you ain't seen nothin' yet.
I've said all I can say - since this is kind of job-related, I can't peddle benefits on the internet!
Posted by: persiflage | October 19, 2008 6:53 PM
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Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,
The new President whomever that is will need your help. How you say?? Clean up your "fatwaing" religion for starters.
Some infamous fatwa:from Google
"An important fatwā was issued in July 2007 by Islamic scholars from Al-Azhar University at the Shari'a Court of the Islamic Cultural Centre and London Central Mosque, supporting interfaith dialogue with Christians and Jews through the shared study of the Quran, hadith and Jewish and Christian sacred texts, in the practice of Scriptural Reasoning[5].
Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini in 1989 pronounced a death sentence on Salman Rushdie, the author of The Satanic Verses.
Yusuf al-Qaradawi released a fatwa on April 14th 2004, stating that the boycott of American and Israeli products was an obligation for all who are able. The fatwa reads in part:
If people ask in the name of religion we must help them. The vehicle of this support is a complete boycott of the enemies' goods. Each riyal, dirham …etc. used to buy their goods eventually becomes bullets to be fired at the hearts of brothers and children in Palestine. For this reason, it is an obligation not to help them (the enemies of Islam) by buying their goods. To buy their goods is to support tyranny, oppression and aggression. Buying goods from them will strengthen them; our duty is to make them as weak as we can. Our obligation is to strengthen our resisting brothers in the Sacred Land as much as we can. If we cannot strengthen the brothers, we have a duty to make the enemy weak. If their weakness cannot be achieved except by boycott, we must boycott them. American goods, exactly like the great Israeli goods, are forbidden. It is also forbidden to advertise these goods, even though in many cases they prove to be superior. America today is a second Israel. It totally supports the Zionist entity. The usurper could not do this without the support of America. “Israel’s” unjustified destruction and vandalism of everything has been using American money, American weapons, and the American veto. America has done this for decades without suffering the consequences of any punishment or protests about their oppressive and prejudiced position from the Islamic world.[2][3]
Sheik Sadeq Abdallah bin Al-Majed, leader of the Muslim Brotherhood in Sudan, issued a fatwa that prohibits vaccination of children claiming it is a conspiracy of the Jews and Freemasons.[4][5]
Indian Muslim scholars issued a fatwa of death against Taslima Nasreen, an exiled controversial Bangladeshi writer. Majidulla Khan Farhad of Hyderabad-based Majlis Bachao Tehriq issued the fatwa at the Tipu Sultan mosque in Kolkata after Juma prayers as saying Taslima has defamed Islam and announced “unlimited financial reward” to anybody who would kill her. [6]
In 1998, Grand Ayatollah Sistani of Iraq, issued a fatwa prohibiting University of Virginia professor Abdulaziz Sachedina from ever again teaching Islam due in part to Sachedina's writings encouraging acceptance of religious pluralism in the Muslim world[7].
Osama bin Laden issued two fatwas—in 1996 and then again in 1998—that Muslims should kill civilians and military personnel from the United States and allied countries until they withdraw support for Israel and withdraw military forces from Islamic countries.[8][9]
In 2005, the Leader of the Islamic Republic of Iran, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has issued the Fatwa that the production, stockpiling and use of nuclear weapons are forbidden under Islam and that Iran shall never acquire these weapons.[citation needed]
In 2008, undercover reporting by a private TV channel in India showed several respected clerics demanding and receiving cash for issue of fatwas. In response, some were suspended from issuing fatwas and Indian Muslim leaders announced that they would create a new body that will monitor the issuing of fatwas in India.[10][11]
In 2008, a Pakistani religious leader issued a fatwa on President Asif Ali Zardari for "indecent gestures" toward Sarah Palin, U.S. Vice Presidential candidate.[12]"
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | October 19, 2008 6:32 PM
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I just convinced myself to look into it myself.
Thanks for leading my thought processes along those lines.
Posted by: Victoria | October 19, 2008 6:09 PM
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Thanks, Persiflage.
I asked my Dad just that.
Uncle Sam was treated at the VA Hospital, so I assume he is getting the care and direction he needs.
These guys (my Dad and Uncle) are pretty hardcore flag wavers though- and it is hard to get them to admit their government could ever wrong them in any way.
:)
Posted by: Victoria | October 19, 2008 6:08 PM
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Victoria - your uncle needs to look into filing a VA claim. I was going to give you chapter and verse about how to do this but thought better of it for professional reasons. Vietnam vets that have certain disabilities as a result of Agent Orange exposure may have grounds for a service connected claim. Any veteran membership organization has this information (DAV, VFW, etc.).
Posted by: persiflage | October 19, 2008 5:59 PM
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Joseph stated-
"I do too. So I guess he knows where the accusation that Obama is a traitor originates."
At a rally stump speech being given by Palin.
IRAQ VETERANS AGAINST WAR
http://ivaw.org/
here is the gov site that lists Obama's voting record on Veterans issues.
http://obama.senate.gov/issues/veterans/
And I guess he remembers that Obama refused to cosponsor the “Military Voting Protection Act of 2008” . This bill was introduced based on congressional findings that “the ability of the members of the armed forces to vote while serving overseas has been HAMPERED by numerous factors, including inadequate processes for ensuring their timely receipt of absentee ballots, delivery methods that are typically slow and ANTIQUATED, and a myriad of voting procedures that are often confusing.”
This was an amendment to a bill that already exists.
It proposes using computer technology, instead of paper.
As a poll worker, I had to attend our seminar last month- We were infromed that last vote- we lost 15,000 votes due to technical difficulties.
At the time, I didn't think to ask if those were national numbers- ir what those numbers mean exactly.
I will find out on Nov.4th I hope.
Now, I don't especially know where you stand on electronic voting.
I am personally not in favor of it.
The machines have been found to be vulenrable to tampering.
Also, alot of the push for using electronic voting is coming from one company- I can't remember their name. Diebold? Not sure.
I just had my weekly conversation with Paul the Electriciam :), my Dad- and he told me something sad- My Uncle Sam (honest to god- that is who he really is- talk about steroptypes!)
who was a Marine in Vietnam, is on bedrest as they found fluid in his spine, and the doctor's say it is a result of his exposure to Agent Orange.
All these years later. Hard to imagine.
Ok.
Peace
Posted by: Victoria | October 19, 2008 5:38 PM
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Joseph - a 15 second youtube excerpt? What did you discover there that makes you pose Obama as a traitor? You don't think the Pentagon is in bed with major civilian defense contractors?
Where do you think retired generals and other Pentagon officials go for large consultant and lobbyist salaries when they retire? You're either extraordinarily naive, and you just hate the idea of a black man becoming President of the USA.
Anyway, this 'traitor' business is a serious accusation - do you even know the foundation that is necessary to accuse someone of being a traitor?
In modern times, US citizens (often covert CIA/FBI agents) that have sold or otherwise relayed top secret weapons or defense information to foreign governments have been convicted and sentenced for treason.
Sometimes foreign-born civilians that are naturalized US citizens have been so tried and convicted - a recent conviction in California of a Chinese scientist gathering information for China comes to mind - this occurred over a period of 20 some years before being detected.
And why do you suppose Obama refused to support the bill that you mention? I suspect there were underlying riders in the bill that caused him to withdraw his support - just as there were in the late term abortion bill that he refused to support - because saving the life of the mother was not included in the bill. There's always much more to the story, isn't there?
People who hate the very idea of Obama as President will parse out incomplete and ill-considered reasons, but if one digs deeper - they will find the whole truth, which is far from what is portrayed by the anti-Obamites.
Do you think Colin Powell would be supporting a 'traitor' or even a 'leftist' for President?
Much less someone that he perceived to be an adversary of the US military? I don't think so, but that's just me......
I work with veterans every day - don't know about you.
Posted by: persiflage | October 19, 2008 4:58 PM
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Persiflage says he has- first hand knowledge, you might say.
I do too. So I guess he knows where the accusation that Obama is a traitor originates.
And I guess he remembers that Obama refused to cosponsor the “Military Voting Protection Act of 2008” . This bill was introduced based on congressional findings that “the ability of the members of the armed forces to vote while serving overseas has been hampered by numerous factors, including inadequate processes for ensuring their timely receipt of absentee ballots, delivery methods that are typically slow and antiquated, and a myriad of voting procedures that are often confusing.”
Clearly this is a problem and needs solving. But not in Obama’s America because Obama clearly knows who the military respects and will support.
Listen to Obama Trash Defense Department
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=jEWp4as5G9g&feature=related
Posted by: Joseph | October 19, 2008 4:21 PM
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Persiflage:
I find it odd that the neocons have not noticed that two Nobel prizes have been awarded to democrats (Carter and Gore), and one to Paul Krugman, the economist who has been very critical of Bush. Can anybody name a republican who has done this? Anyone?
I live in Georgia. I personally know conservatives who voted for Bush who would probably beat the living crap out of anyone who put down Carter. They know a good man when they see one, even if they don't agree with the politics.
Carter has devoted all of his post-presidential years to relentless and tireless work to feed, heal, and shelter the poor of the world. Seems to me a guy named Jesus thought this was a good idea. Bush, on the other hand, has publically announced that he will make as much money as he can making speeches, and spend the rest of his time clearing brush on his 'ranch'. Now, neocons, please tell me which one is the real Christian. (I can almost hear them burrowing back under their rocks.)
Posted by: Arminius | October 19, 2008 4:08 PM
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It is altogether improbable that the already monumental DOD budget would take a downward turn with Obama - of course one wonders if such stupid ideas as placing ICBMs in Poland would continue to get the kind of congressional support that it has heretofore enjoyed. So much for detent with Russia!
Or as another lamebrained example, the reified Reagan Star Wars missile defense shield idea that Bush was pushing not so long ago, Mega-billions for naught - and that means nothing with a capital N. We can assume that idiotic idea would be on permanent hold with Obama.
The funding for troop support, protective body and vehicular armor in Iraq was abysmal to non-existent for many years, as we all know by now. The GOP did a great job with that ill-considered war planning fiasco, now didn't they? The Bush GOP war planners missed so much, it's hard to chronicle their collective screw-ups.
It's equally hard to imagine that military leaders played any real instrumental part whatsoever in the early war planning phase, when Donald Rumsfeld was running the show. This war was a covert civilian operation from day one.
It's no wonder that Colin Powell has come out for Obama. He probably considers throwing in with the Bush administration his biggest personal failure - and yet he was never a true insider, and was as deceived by Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld as the man on the street.
The examples of failure to support troops and veterans during and after their tours is a story I happen to know quite well - first hand knowledge, you might say.
There is absolutely no possibility that a democratic President and democratically controlled Congress could screw up as badly as a republican President and his lackey Congress for 6 of his 8 years in office.
While much blame is cast on the current democrats in Congress, let us not forgot that they don't have a super majority, and the other fact that Blue Dog democrats are really republicans in disguise - and often vote with republicans on many legislative measures.
True, all of this may change come November 4 - more real democrats and many less republicans in Congress, is my best guess.
Let the real work commence after January 1, 2009.
PS. If there is a republican ex-president that can boost a humanitarian record that even remotely approaches Jimmy Carter's post-presidential record, I'd like that name now if you don't mind. We could send his name in to the Nobel Prize selection committee for consideration.
Posted by: persiflage | October 19, 2008 3:40 PM
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Rosalyn Carter has tirelessly devoted her time to advocating for the mentally ill.
Would someone please remind her that CHARITY BEGINS AT HOME.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 19, 2008 1:24 PM
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Obama keeps making the accusation that McCain will be a third W term.
Consider this -->
Obama will be a second Carter term. Jimmy Carter did more to undermine the US and its interests than any president in American history.
Here's a reminder of Carter's Military Genius -->
from Chris Matthew's Hardball:
MATTHEWS: Let me ask you the question about—this is going to cause some trouble with people—but as an historian now and studying the Revolutionary War as it was fought out in the South in those last years of the War, insurgency against a powerful British force, do you see any parallels between the fighting that we did on our side and the fighting that is going on in Iraq today?
CARTER: Well, one parallel is that the Revolutionary War, more than any other war up until recently, has been the most bloody war we‘ve fought. I think another parallel is that in some ways the Revolutionary War could have been avoided. It was an unnecessary war.
Had the British Parliament been a little more sensitive to the colonial‘s really legitimate complaints and requests the war could have been avoided completely, and of course now we would have been a free country as is Canada and India and Australia, having gotten our independence in a nonviolent way.
I think in many ways the British were very misled in going to war against America and in trying to enforce their will on people who were quite different from them at the time.
REALLY, JIMMY ??
Since when did the Revolutionary War become the bloodiest conflict we've ever faced? The Civil War killed over 600,000 Americans, easily outpacing any other war in which we've fought. Even World War II only accounts for 407,000. Both of them dwarf our total casualties in the Revolutionary War, which cost less than 5,000 American lives.
Obama says he will cut the military and he will cut weapons development.
And remember- Obama will be just fine making friends with other countries who are holding our diplomats and citizens hostage. Just like Carter did.
If you liked Carter, you want to vote for Obama.
OBAMA PROMISING TO CUT MILITARY AND WEAPONS SPENDING:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sj91NH5fvw
Posted by: JOSEPH | October 19, 2008 12:41 PM
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Obama will restore the dignity of America and keep our military strong. I am a veteran, BTW.
I still fail to see how being able to rip the guts out of a dead moose prepares someone for the White House.
Posted by: Arminius | October 19, 2008 12:08 PM
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If Obama's election is sealed (and remember he won the democratic nomination narrowly) will Obama restore American greatness or will he ruin our military and bring us down to third world status??
Posted by: PUMA | October 19, 2008 10:43 AM
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Sarah Palin has class and dignity. Watching her reminds me anew of the top three reasons the elite slvt class hates Sarah:
1. She is truly beautiful — and didn’t have to undergo a million dollars worth of cosmetic surgery to get that way.
2. She is an independent, resilient and resourceful thinker — and doesn’t have to depend on an ivy league education.
3. She made her way to the top on her own two feet — and not on her back.
Posted by: PUMA | October 19, 2008 10:24 AM
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Colin Powell has just endorsed Obama. That seals it, and America will be restored after the eight year Reign of Error.
Posted by: Arminius | October 19, 2008 10:10 AM
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Wow! I had heard that Bush supporters all had an average I.Q. of 75 - and now they're voting for Obama! That is great news I must say. And it never pays to make fun of the cerebrally less well endowed - you can never tell when they will do something extraordinarily smart.
When you add that now-enlightened group of Luddites to the vast swarms of highly successful, college-educated liberals, middle-of-the roaders, and independents that are also voting for Obama, it kind of makes me wonder who the McCainites really are? The Hillary fans came over to Obama awhile back.
I've heard that even hard-core republicans are voting for Obama just out of fear and loathing of the Palin nomination. It could be that any vestige of remaining McCain support is simply a media confabulation, and not an actual fact in the real world - we've seen plenty of that from the media, so no surprise.
Yes, that roaring you hear in the background is the vast and irresistable undertow of support for Obama that is quickly building into a voting tsunami of epic proportions.
Posted by: persiflage | October 19, 2008 9:55 AM
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Peruse
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Barack_Obama
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Biden
to educate yourself about BO and JB before November.
Peruse
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_John_McCain
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Palin
to educate yourself about JM and SP before November.
And don't forget to VOTE !!!!
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | October 19, 2008 3:14 AM
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SPARROW4 on Catholic America:
If that's your idea of the dictatorship of democracy, you would have loved nazi germany where the majority fell in place behind Hitler. did that make the Holocaust right by democracy? I don't think so.
October 19, 2008 1:19 AM
____________________________________
Does killing the unborn child become right by democracy? I don't think so.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 19, 2008 2:12 AM
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The case against abortion should be made on the basis of hard core medical science about human embryology and human rights (the right to life) for the unborn child.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 19, 2008 1:29 AM
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The case against abortion should be made on the basis of hard core medical science about human embryology and human rights for the unborn child.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 19, 2008 1:28 AM
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There is nothing worse and destructive than intellectuals posing as spiritually enlightened when they are not. The argument in favor of abortion by a Catholic is one of them.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 19, 2008 1:26 AM
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from deep down in my grave hole,let me tell you people :
1-nationalism is not only part and parcel of socialism but also as well is part and parcel of capitalism ,the whole wealth of the nation is transfized and nationalized to the banking system ,the only difference is they call socialism the iron fist while they call capitalism the laisse faire laisse passe$ librer fist ,in reality both fist are human ,both fist are subject to human syndrome good or bad.
so please try to examine and study the foisseled termnology that been not only screwing the human fist but the human brain as well.
when in abundance, people care less abut their system as long as they luxury fed ,clothed and housed but in shortage, people go to the extrem of sliting each other throats .
i,m wating her in my grave *social *cemetry to see and watch how the $american spirit $survive the huricane.
Posted by: marx &lenin | October 19, 2008 1:08 AM
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PATSY, don't panic. To sex education: imagine a heterosexual parent telling a homosexual child it has no right to be homosexual or the other way around, a homosexual trying to brainwash a heterosexual child into believing all are homosexual? What is wrong with a child being taught that around TEN percent of human beings are homosexually oriented and NINETY percent are not? And that in the early years it is wise to protect oneself from influences that push one to experiment with sex rather than discover naturally one's sexual orientation? Parents can influence children both for good and bad. Comprehensive knowledge from reliable sources is the best weapon against problems arising from ignorance.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 19, 2008 12:55 AM
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"anything can be fanatically followed (the term fan derives from it)"
No kidding?
Obama supporters have an averaged IQ of 75
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCcHzUmVP5c
This ought to frighten everyone to the core- but we're only laughing.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 19, 2008 12:37 AM
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Palin's a scorched-earth candidate for a losing campaign... Apart from being the picture of McCain's documented low opinion of women, if by some hook or band of crooks they got elected, she'd be a Quayle: Someone to make you impeachment-proof cause the VP is just frickin' too scary to countenance.
Posted by: Paganplace | October 18, 2008 11:55 PM
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Anon- I agree- no need to demonize one and angelicize the other-
I truly have a deep fear of Palin though-
and a tangible hope with Obama- these are visceral reactions, but they are my own.
Nationalism, anything can be fanatically followed (the term fan derives from it)
The new chant of anti-americanism I am seeing and hearing frightens me to my core.
Posted by: Victoria | October 18, 2008 10:58 PM
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I cant wait until the election is over and Obama wins the presidency. I wish I could get one of his campaign managers to let me register in many many other names too so I could vote for him a hundred times.
I cannot wait to live under Big Brother, I am so excited for us to be a socialist country. That will be the highlight of my life.
It will be really good when all the illegal immigrants get their driver's licenses and can go where ever they want to and not even worry whether they have auto insurance or not, because my beautiful Obama will let me and all the other people who work pay it for them.
I will be so happy when I am of age to retire and see my social security benefits that I have been paying into all these years go to all those beautiful illegal immigrants. They need it so bad to start a new life where they shouldn't be allowed to live.
I think it is wonderful that Obama will let any mother who doesn't want her baby to legally kill it. What is even better is if the mothers to be don't decide to kill the baby before it is born they can kill it just after it is born. Imagine being able to kill your baby even after it is born and legally too, how wonderful is that? Why hasn't any of the other presidents of this country been smart enough to know that if a woman screws around and gets pregnant it should be her right to kill it anytime she wants too? Wouldn't it be great to actually watch a mother giving birth and then be allowed to see the Dr. put a knife threw it's head?
And I trust all those people the idiot Republicans are afraid of , you know the ones Obama has the friendships with? I really love Rev Wright, Obama's preacher who hates all the white people, You know the one Obama said was his mentor, the one who married him and his beautiful nonracist wife. The preacher who says no to God Bless America and yes to GD America. When I saw him say that I just cried with happiness. But it is great that Obama never in 20 years of going to that church heard any of that. Not even the time that his preacher pointed right at him when he was saying it during service. I think it was very wise of Wright to tell Obama to disassociate himself away from him until the election was over and Obama pretended to the country that he did.
And gotta love Louis Farrakhan, I saw him on a video, he was wonderful. He said the white people were from the devil and black people were God's chosen people. I was so proud of him when he said that and more proud of him when he said Obama is the Messiah. Yes he did. Said it clear as can be.
But what I am really waiting for is to give a big portion of my earnings to Obama so he can redistribute it however he wants to. He is a smart smart man and he will spend my hard earned money the best he sees fit.
I saw him with his cousin Odinga who is also running for office. Wow, what a nice man he is. I can't believe how great all Obama's relatives, friends and associates are. Pretty soon all of America will be able to be able to live the high life under the control of all those people with Obama in the lead. They are all smart smart men we should all be anxiously awaiting the day that we let them tell us how to live our lives.
Another good thing I am excited for is that we will all have health insurance. There might not be any Dr's willing to work for what Obama says they can earn, and research will just stop in it's tracks, but that's ok, it's worth it not to be able to see a Dr for 6 months after you need to because, hey, it's more health care than we had because we weren't taking responsibility for ourselves. Besides Obama can make a deal to get Drs trained in Kenya at a good price for us.
It will be nice when the schools take over our children's sex education. I don't believe it is the parents place to do that. My daughter who is just 9 years old who has been watching the debates and other news about this election with me thinks sex education in school is fantastic. She is anxious to hear all about how it is ok to be gay. She has seen gay right parades on TV before and asked how men have sex with another man. I told her that her school teacher will tell her all about it when we get Obama as our next president. That it won't be the parents job to educate them about sex.
I hope someday when Islam is the only religion we are allowed to have that I will be able to join all those radicals in NYC when they have their yearly celebration in the streets of that great state. Oh man, I can hardly contain myself I am so excited.
I just can't wait for Obama to be our leader and give us the great socialistic way of life.
Posted by: Patsy | October 18, 2008 10:54 PM
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Here here to that- no matter what the disagreement, Arminuis' stoutness and goodness are a constant here.
Posted by: Victoria | October 18, 2008 10:53 PM
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Arminius - amen to that. I think we can hold our own, as long as the breweries keep producing.
As we know, a good stout makes a good man stouter.....and I'll raise a parting glass to that.
Posted by: persiflage | October 18, 2008 10:46 PM
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CORRECTION: Religious fanaticism should NOT be part of any politics.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 18, 2008 10:41 PM
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If Western European democracies can be looked to as an example, one notices it is centrist parties, whether to the left or right, that gain power. And people generally choose them in turns. So Republicans cannot and should not be written off simply because it is not their turn this time now. It is necessary for them to adopt more centrist positions in order to make a serious come back. Religious fanaticism should be part of the picture at all. History has shown how fanaticism, as opposed to mainstream religious beliefs, sows the seeds of hatred and intolerance for others who believe differently. Besides, pastoring should be left to pastors. Politicians need not take on pseudo roles that is not theirs to take or have the competence to perform. It is not like a government portfolio. The public who demand pastor performances from politicians are really to blame. A politician merely tries to deliver what the voters want, telling them what they want to hear. Religion should not become a political tool.
The religion of the candidates is reflected in the integrity of their personal lives, their policies. So beyond knowing the basis of their religious affiliations, the only real proof of their religious conviction is their lives and politics. By their fruits shall ye know them.
Both Senator Obama and Senator McCain have different strengths and weaknesses, as Senator Biden and Governor Palin.
Be fair to all. There is no need to demonize one and make a demigod of the other.
Compare policies, compare policies, compare policies and VOTE for the shade of gray that appeals to you best.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 18, 2008 10:38 PM
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Governor Palin could do through the media attention she is getting is to make her case for FEMINISTS FOR LIFE and her support for parents of children with special needs.
Whatever she chooses to do after the election cycle for this term is over, (there is very little chance the McCain-Palin team will win, but it is no reason not to fight till the end and exit as gracefully as possible to leave doors open for another day), it should include her continuing to make a case for FEMINISTS FOR LIFE and her support of parents with children who have special needs. Her dedication will help form a younger generation of women who understand and respect the value of human life in the womb, and seek to protect it. Pregnancy prevention should be undertaken before the child is conceived, not achieved with the brutal and inhuman act that is abortion.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 18, 2008 10:22 PM
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Persiflage:
Good posts by you here, thanks.
As to the dark age outcome of the worst happening, the victory once again of the neocon idiots, you said,
"The psychic deflation would be palpable, and would eventually be a tale told by fools, as the smart ones would have departed for more sanguine shores......"
Well, I'll still be here. The barricades must be manned. My kids are here, and in college. I will want my country back, and even at my age I can still fight.
Posted by: Arminius | October 18, 2008 8:00 PM
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Victoria - agreed that Obama has vulnerability to the kind of slander that the dark genius of a Karl Rove could bring to bear - I have no doubt that McCain would agree to virtually any ruse that would cast doubt on Obama.
In the coming days, it's no holds barred and the 24/7 plot to upend Obama is surely ongoing. Were McCain to somehow emerge victorious - this would indeed be the signal for our entrance into a Brave New World and of that I have no doubt.
On the heels of the Bush administration, there would be no respite and no kind of societal recovery imaginable. McCain supporters (and all others) would see the darkness that they have only dreamt of.......in that sense, a self-fulfilling prophecy would come to pass - although I do hate to get biblical!
The psychic deflation would be palpable, and would eventually be a tale told by fools, as the smart ones would have departed for more sanguine shores......
Posted by: persiflage | October 18, 2008 7:18 PM
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It ain't over til it's over though-
I keep fearing there may be an Osama Bin Laden lookalike trotted out during the last week-
the ultimate October Surprise.
I switch between cable news programs and get alot of news from both internet and TV and some papers-
I've been a political junkie fron a sprout-
definitely far left in the past, but more cintrist as I get older- (still pretty left though)
I found the study, meager as it is- interesting because it confirms what may be my own misperceptions that the right seems to motivate more by fear factor- this cycle seems to bear it out-
Yours for prime time, rhyme, and reason.
Posted by: Victoria | October 18, 2008 6:52 PM
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It ain't over til it's over though-
I keep fearing there may be an Osama Bin Laden lookalike trotted out during the last week-
the ultimate October Surprise.
I switch between cable news programs and get alot of news from both internet and TV and some papers-
I've been a political junkie fron a sprout-
definitely far left in the past, but more cintrist as I get older- (still pretty left though)
I found the study, meager as it is- interesting because it confirms what may be my own misperceptions that the right seems to motivate more by fear factor- this cycle seems to bear it out-
Your for prime time, rhyme, and reason.
Posted by: Victoria | October 18, 2008 6:50 PM
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Victoria - Regarding biology and politics - I read that article somewhere on MSNBC. What I also find most interesting is the 50/50 divide that we seem to maintain in the USA as regards
political parties and political choices. How this compares to other countries I have not a clue.
Why this is continues to be anybody's guess - although perhaps a masterful statistician will provide some insight.
Elections are decided by relatively few votes either way as a rule......I'm doubtful of the wisdom of the electoral college, although this allegedly equalizes the political sentiments of low population states - however, regions do tend to vote homogeneously.
Take the entire South, for example. Formerly dixiecrats, and now republican since the days of mandated integration. Contemporary democrats in the South are really up against it - some don't bother to vote because of a sense of futility as regards electoral outcomes.
This time will probably be very different, as Obama may carry some southern states. Suburban vs rural breakdowns are also pretty interesting.
I'm political almost purely by instinct and intuition, for example. I rarely watch the news, but am something of an internet junkie, so the news always prevails in the end. I've been to the left of center as regards social policies since I can remember - crime, punishment and finances are more complicated. Freedom of religion and freedom from religion are of equal value.
In all honesty, promising lower taxes to any part of the voting population in our current fiscal environment seems less prudent that reviewing the various ways and means of re-balancing the federal budget - now busted beyond all measure. Corporate privilage is so entrenched in our society that sometime in the very near future, this will have to be addressed.
Real change in this arena will be very hard indeed - regardless the congressional make-up. Social Security and Medicare are high on the agenda, after addressing the pull-out in Iraq.
We'll still be muddling through the current fiscal/economic crisis by this time next year.
Even now, an Iraqi government by sectarian rule is looming large, with cleric al Sader exercising disproportionate influence - and of course this is no surprise. Perhaps the USA should have left well enough alone......?! Nation-building is really for idiots, IMO. Nations are built from within, rather than from without. How could it be otherwise?
Interesting times ahead for one and all!! I'd frankly hate to be facing the future with McCain/Palin.....I'm very glad we won't be.
Posted by: persiflage | October 18, 2008 5:29 PM
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We can always hope, can't we Persiflage?
You may find this interesting.
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/2008/10/fear_and_anger/comments.html#comments
Scroll down to my name- it is not far down.
Peace
Posted by: Victoria | October 18, 2008 4:40 PM
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There are several things that really nother me about McCain's stump speeches.
He says he is not George Bush- but wants to give tax cuts on capital gains- affecting only the wealthy and further burdening the middle class.
so, HE WANTS TO GIVE TAX cuts those same scoundrels he is decrying in the next sentence?
He vehemently denounced robocalls and said he would never use them when they were used against him in South Carolina in 2000- by the Rove playbook- and now has picked up Rove's playbook and embraced it and is using robocalls against Obama.
But worst of all, is his continued assertion on his stump speeches today in Virginia- (Shouldn't he have locked the Virginia vote up weeks , nay, months ago?)
His continued assertion that he has been fighting for his country since he was 17.
McCain as born in 1936.
When he was 17, in 1953 he was in Episcopal High School in Alexandria. He didn't even graduate until 1954. Does he mean fighting for America on the high school wrestling team?
Does that count?
He graduated from Annapolis in 1958- and his ranking was 894 of 899.
He was 21- still no tangible fighting for America yet.
He began his "pre-combat" training by being a sub-par flyer, characterized as careless and reckless and, got married, had some children- and spent his time on a carrier in the Caribbean and Mediterranean Seas.
At this time, in 1960, my father, who is 4 years younger than John McCain, was in Korea.
John was earning his reputation as a party guy.
His first combat duty didn't occur until he was 30 years old, and started on July 25th 1967-
He was captured 3 months later on October 26th.
So, the amount of time he actively spent 'fighting for America' was a total of 3 months.
That's quite different than he is portraying his service, which was punctuated with crashing several planes, partying, and in his own words, 'defying authority'.
So much for his claim of 'fighting for America' since he was 17.
Can't people do math?
And now, he has to lie and mislead to paint his opponent badly.
He says that under Obama's plan- 95% of every American will get a tax cut. And then, disingenuously tells his audience- that 40% of americans don't pay taxes. SO, under Obama's plan- the government will be giving free money to a bunch of layabouts.
WHOOHOO! FREE MONEY!
Actually, alot of those people don't pay taxes because they get a return because they're working those subsistent level wages.
But- it is not what Obama said- he said 95% of WORKING FAMILIES- WILL GET A TAX CUT UNDER HIS PLAN.
Here is a link that breaks it down.
It was formulated by the
Tax Policy Center of the Urban Institute and the Brookings Center
http://blog.aflcio.org/2008/09/04/obamas-tax-plan-better-for-working-families-than-mccains/
Here is a website that will show you exactly what your taxes will be under Obama's plan.
http://alchemytoday.com/obamataxcut/
Posted by: VICTORIA | October 18, 2008 4:07 PM
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People who harbor bigoted tendencies almost invariably project those self-characteristics on folks they don't like for one reason or another.
It's just a fact of life, and virtually everybody short of sainthood does it.....when it comes up in a political campaign, most enlightened people would simply consider the source - flawed human nature showing it's dark side.
When you hear alot of negative proclamations directed toward the oppposition, one needs to take it with a grain of salt. For example, I'm sure Sarah Palin is a marvelous person in her native Alaskan environment, despite all the negative commentary - but she's damn sure not a fit candidate for Vice President.
Do we need to count the ways yet again? Simple question - which VP do you want ascending to the Presidency should that most unfortunate situation arise? Biden's credentials for the job are so far beyond Palin that a reasonable comparison can't be made - so enough said.
And since John McCain selected her as his running mate, he's damn sure not a fit candidate for President by virtue of his exceedingly bad judgement.
So we can see that it's easy to tell the truth without all those bigoted and thinly veiled references that go directly to a candidate's racial/ethnic make-up - much less railing on about his falaciously attributed sympathies for 'Marxism'....tantamount to calling someone a communist.
This indeed is McCarthyism of the first order, as Victoria points out. Keyes should be ashamed of himself....because that sounds like a rather bigoted and inflammatory accusation in my book.
Nobody ever said that every black person was liberal, or a democrat - and Alan Keyes is a perfect example. Unfortunately, the man can't get elected by popular vote as dogcatcher ..... can't imagine why not, what with his perfect credentials among evangelical rightwingers. Of course being Catholic and black may be working against him, but who can tell?
After Obama is elected as President, color barriers will further erode - and Keyes may even have a better shot at getting elected to something after Obama paves the way.......
He may get another invite to the White House yet. It's been quite awhile since Reagan occupied the Oval Office.
Posted by: persiflage | October 18, 2008 3:32 PM
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Enjoy your run Ginevera. Lucky lady!
Posted by: VICTORIA | October 18, 2008 3:29 PM
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Sorry Victoria
It is a beautiful fall day and my husband and I are going to take the horses out for a run to the creek.
I don't have time to answer questions. I just wanted to share the video of Sarah Palin with the readers here. It made me all teary when I saw it.
I can say a word about McCain's creativity. He stayed alive under torture from the Vietcong. That is resourceful. His body was broken- but he is able to use that broken body through days and nights of grueling campaigning. I am an athlete and I am impressed.
Enjoy the rest of your day.
Posted by: GINEVERA | October 18, 2008 3:23 PM
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Since you failed to repsond to my initial question to you- I'll repost for your convenience-
I appreciate your compassion in this regard.
The ethics breach wasn't concerning Wooten, the brother in law- But the firing of Commissioner of Public Safety Walter Monegan.
Executive Branch Ethics Act- Plain has abused her power as Gov- and violated the trust of the public.
While, it is legal for her to fire anyone she deems deserving- this was not what the inquiry was concerned with.
It was the IMPERMISSABLE EXERTION OF PRESSURE by Palin, her husband, and Top Aides placed on subordinates to fire Wooten, creating a conflict of interest in her subordiinates who had the choice to either please their boss- or face her displeasure.
The extensive documented evidence (many recorded phone calls on record)is not disputed , and Todd Palin has admitted to and conceded the facts of the evidence's credibility.
Palin's defense that Wooten was a real threat to the safety of her and her family, and (so far unproven)allegations that he made a death threat to her father, and tasered his 10 year old stepson, was repsonded to by Branchflower.
He found the threat not a credible defense, because Palin DISMISSED HER WON SECURITY DETAIL soon after she became Gov- from both Anchorage and Juneau and finds it to be INCONSISTENT IF SHE WERE REALLY WORRIED about the safety of her family.
He also stated that, if anything, getting Wooten fired would increase the potential threat.
And that this challenges the basis of Palin's reasons for exercising that firing.
Her abuse of power, and violation of ethics and public trust are a violation of law, and punishable by censure or theoretically impeachment, which, in a republican controlled legislature seems unlikely.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So, there you have it. If this came to light about Obama I would seriously consider withdrawing support for him.
How does this affect your opinion of the character of Palin?
Do you just deny it and ignore it, as she did?
And does that not disturb you?
Posted by: VICTORIA | October 18, 2008 3:18 PM
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Hi Ginevera-
You're not going to start a conversation with condescending pity, are you?
It's not necessary- we can dialogue with mutual respect. OK?
Apparently we were posting at the same time-
I will reiterate.
Where are John's creative ideas?
It is a very reasonable question.
Why can no one answer it?
Please- no lazy cut and pastes, or youtube links-
if a supporter cannot bother to think constructively enough to form an actual sentence-
I am not going to do your work and thinking for you by reading or viewing it.
Posted by: VICTORIA | October 18, 2008 3:11 PM
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I think we know pretty well by now what McCain is against, worn out old domestic terrorists, (Gordon G. Liddy), extremist vicious hate mongering preachers,(Hagee, Muthee).
The gutter attacks, childish name calling and sniping- sneaky robocalls and negative campaigning- (again, didn't he PROMISE not to do that?) are just not working.
Every new attack brings a drop in the polls-
And McCain wants to offer the same economics philosophy as George Bush.
Campaign strategies, economic policies-
Hasn't McCain ever heard that quote that says, A sign of insanity is to continue with the same actions and expect a different outcome?
But no one seems capable of elaborating on what McCain is FOR.
He never talks about himself, or what he will do!
Besides the vaguest jingoistic cheerleader cheers-
so far- he seems completely obsessed with what Obama thinks.
When I stumble upon an occasional visionary idea- I don't worry so much about what others think.
I pursue my own creative constructions.
Where are John's creative ideas?
It is a very reasonalbe question.
Why can no one answer it?
Please- no lazy cut and pastes, or youtube links-
if a supporter cannot bother to think constructively enough to form an actual sentence-
I am not going to do your work and thinking for you by reading or viewing it.
Posted by: VICTORIA | October 18, 2008 3:08 PM
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"Something in Palin sparks for you- she kind of repulses me a bit. I find her phony and something of a bully.
I have definite subsantial reasons- she incites people to hatred and malevolence- I find those questionable talents-"
Yes Victoria, I see something very special in this woman. I pity you inability to see clearly.
Sarah Palin incites people to hatred and malevolence? As compared to the utubes of Obama's Pastor Wright?
NBC Nightly News did an interesting piece on her recently.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/27183176#27183176
Take a look Victoria and tell us what you see- How is Sarah holding up under the media's firestorm attack?
Posted by: GINEVERA | October 18, 2008 3:07 PM
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I was raised and socialized in African american schools as a child. Where I was a minority of 11 white kids. SO, it is possible that my sympathies were formed as a child.
So, your response is further fear mongering?
How is that working for you?
Posted by: VICTORIA | October 18, 2008 2:29 PM
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VICTORIA
If you think the "let's hate whitey" videos are old news- you are wrong. These people have spent their lives spew out their filth and Barack and Michelle spent 20 years with them. In a few weeks the news will be full of utubes.
I can understand your guilt towards black slaves in America because your American ancestors were implicated in slave-owning. But that's not true for me and for that matter Obama is not related to any black slave in America. There may have been slaves on his Kenyan side- but that was black on black.
If you are so afraid of McCain -then you should have support Hillary (she was thoroughly vetted) but its too late now.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 18, 2008 2:01 PM
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Anon- Please don't direct me to those stupid propaganda pieces in the future.
How is it, that white people can spend the last 300 years treating africans as slaves and pack animals- go bomb brown people in other countries-
and scream if someone points it out?
You guys are so predictable. Every utterance out of the FOX news station ends up as some formula "opinion".
Today Palin said to a reporter- she is not going to bring up Pator Wright- thus binging up Pastor Wright.
What I am afraid of, is McCains socialist plan to absorb ALL mortgages by the federal government.
What I am afraid of, is a woman who has just been found violating the public trust- being POTUS- with the potential to violate a greater public trust.
What I am afraid of is McCain throwing the world into World War III to hasten the second coming of Christ by inflaming the enitre middle east.
What I am afraid of- is McCain, the deregulator, along with his good buddy Phil Gramm, finishing what they started and COMPLETELY destroying the economy of America, and further strengthening the power of the upper 1% by not taxing them- depending on out-dated trickle down voodoo economics of Reagan- WHICH NEVER WORKED- and turnig the entire workforce of America into slaves of corporations.
What I am afraid of, is the largest population of retirees coming upon us in less than 3 years-
and McCain's solution is to PRIVATIZE Social Security-
If McCain and Bush had their way- Social Security would be worse than bankrupt right now-
It would simply have disappeared.
What I am afraid of, is a throwback to McCarthyism that I am seeing planted by paranoid pliticians who scream ANTI-AMERICAN at every bogeyman that populates their night terrors.
Unstable and easily frightened people are NOT the leaders we need to stabilize our economy, and stabilize a volatile war in the middle east.
For that, we need rational and clear headed leadership.
And that leader is Barack Obama.
Posted by: VICTORIA | October 18, 2008 1:39 PM
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VICTORIA-
Please watch the utube Kimberly posted and comment-
Obama & The Black Liberation Theology Of The Church He Attended / Video / Reverend Wright / James Cone
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=plRkc7_a4EM
Why are you supporting a man who called the racist hatebaiting Wright his spiritual mentor for 20 years?
Posted by: Anonymous | October 18, 2008 12:28 PM
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Thanks Anon- now it is known to me.
But accusing someone isn't the same as proving it.
There seem to be a great many accusations flying around, and all to inspire fear-
I remember when Keyes was a POTUS candidate- he spoke like an academician also.
I don't think that is a bad thing to be.
Marxists certainly aren't shy about proclaiming their chosen ideology. It seems pretty unlikely that, if Obamam had ever declared himself a Marxist, it would be unknown.
I guess as the campaign winds down, and gets closer to election day- the rhetoric gets more frantic and wild.
This week, it is socialism (hence Marxism)
Most people don't know who Marx was- they jut have a vague association that marxist ideology is going to take their hard earned dollars out of the bank, and give it to some undeserving minorities somewhere.
So, ramp up- pump up-amp up the accusations- fling that mud and hope some of it sticks.
And McCain promised to refrain form negative campaigning.
He promised!
Well... now it seems he has become that which he once hated. Karl Rove.
Posted by: VICTORIA | October 18, 2008 12:20 PM
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the concerned christian says:
"The problems of Islam far outweigh US politics"
this election- they are intertwined
RNC Hits Obama Campaign for Meeting with Controversial Muslim Leader who Met with Bush
"How many times has the Obama campaign met with groups tied to or connected with terrorist organizations?" asks the RNC today.
The RNC was referring to a report in today's Wall Street Journal that the Obama campaign "said it was a mistake for an outreach coordinator to join a meeting last month attended by leaders of two controversial Muslim groups as it seeks votes from large Muslim populations in swing states. Minha Husaini, newly named as head of the campaign's outreach coordinator to Muslims, attended a discussion session Sept. 15 with about 30 Muslim leaders and community members in suburban Washington, the Obama campaign confirmed. Participants included leaders of the Council of American-Islamic Relations and the Muslim American Society, which have been cited by the government in the past for ties to the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas...
Posted by: Anonymous | October 18, 2008 12:18 PM
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Victoria that quote of Keyes was well known in Chicago-
"Keyes was also adamant in his characterization of abortion as a "genocide" of black Americans, citing statistics alluding to a decline in the black population of the United States across generations as a result of abortion. He also compared doctors who performed abortions and women who received them to terrorists of the September 11, 2001 attacks, and referred to Obama's stance on abortion to be "the slaveholder's position." [10]
In an interview at his campaign headquarters in Chicago after the convention, Keyes described Obama as a "hard-line, academic, Marxist-socialist" who "voted for infanticide." Keyes also opined that "Christ would not vote for Barack Obama, because Barack Obama has voted to behave in a way that it is inconceivable for Christ to have behaved."
Posted by: Anonymous | October 18, 2008 12:06 PM
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Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,
Other than you have been blinded by the cult of violent and paranormal-based Islam, is there something else we need to know or read about in your obfuscating commentaries???
The problems of Islam far outweigh US politics and we await your solutions to these problems.
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | October 18, 2008 11:46 AM
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What WAS Condi Rice doing learning the Russian language during a cold war?
I cannot help but notice that every real and subsantiated criticism against McPalin is countered with, not intellegent rebuttal of proof of facts-
but the McCarthyist fear waging-
America is a lot mor mature than she was in the 1950's.
Why is no one EVER speaking about what McCain will do, and how he will do it? (Even John McCain)
So, todays smear tactic is socialism.
I don't know if Alan Keyes called Obama a marxist, as I cannot find a quote.
All I can find are clone copies of the same anti-Obama smear sites- repeating this assertion-
Come back with proof or an article from the Tribune. o quote by Keyes to support your allegation Tara.
It doesn't much matter, if another republican used fear mongering and negative tactics in his campaign against Obama-
but what DOES matter is that we accept without question any assertion made without investigating it's truthfulness or falsity.
John McCarthyain is an experience we have already had.
Does anyobody really want to live throught that again?
Proof-validation, links and quotes.
Posted by: VICTORIA | October 18, 2008 11:40 AM
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yea...an intellectual harvard grad who spent a two decades calling a TOTAL BIGOT his personal spiritual guide. i'm not sure what would make me like obama less.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 18, 2008 10:20 AM
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Rosary Films has gotten some film clips of Jeremiah Wright and James Cones that must be seen if you plan to vote for Obama.
Barack Obama's longtime Pastor and Mentor is a blatant racist. He taught a racist marxist theology at the church Barack Obama and his wife attended for twenty years. How did Barack and Michelle listen to this man preach every Sunday and somehow miss he was a hate-filled racist who hates whites and wants revenge on the "white world"? How could they allow their children to be baptised in this church?
After twenty years of being mentored and pastored under this hatefilled "the white man owes me" view of the world- how can I expect Obama to be a wise President? A wise man would have gotten up and walked out on this angry teaching from an angry man.
Obama & The Black Liberation Theology Of The Church He Attended / Video / Reverend Wright / James Cone
Posted by: Kimberly | October 18, 2008 9:31 AM
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Regarding Alan Keyes - of course he doesn't particularly like Barack Obama, since Obama soundly defeated him in the Illinois Senatorial election.
Given Keyes' rightwing political views, it's no surprise he pegged Obama as a textbook Marxist! Let's not forget that in the smokey neocon world, every democrat is a liberal, and every Presidential candidate is a leftist/socialist/Marxist.
Not that most republicans even know the actual working definitions of any of these concepts - they are just rightly presumed to conjure up a negative image in the populist mind of Everyman aka Joe the Plummer.
While Keyes has held different governmental positions, his highest profile work was under Ronald Reagan. Keyes has run for public office in Maryland and Illinois on a number of occasions, and has always been defeated.
His political views as an orthodox Catholic are very far to the right of the political spectrum. His views on social issues are predictable - he threw his own lesbian daughter out of the house upon learning of her sexual orientation.
In the meantime, he has departed the GOP for greener pastures. After recently trying for and failing to get the Constitutional Party nomination, he has started his own independent political party. It's all in wikipedia.....
Not every Harvard graduate is as successful in politics as George W. Bush or Barack Obama - the differences between these two and how they got where they are today are crystal clear.
Obama got where he is by popular fiat....as for GWB, go see the Oliver Stone movie. They say Stone exercised uncommon restraint in his treatment - could it have been those Secret Service guys in big black sedans lurking outside the movie studio??
Posted by: persiflage | October 18, 2008 9:08 AM
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Good morning Roy-
Davis' poems are a bit of my own internet research. I haven't seen them in the media yet.
It was easy to go from reading in Obama's autobiography "Dreams from My Father" about"Frank" the black poet friend of Barack's white grandfather (both from Wichita, Kansas although they didn't know each other until they met up in Hawaii) to finding Frank Davis' poems.
Apparently Frank would visit Obama's grandfather to sit around, smoke pot, drink whiskey, and tell dirty jokes and Obama as a child would sit around and listen in. Frank was quite a pervert during his time in Hawaii and wrote most of his porno books there.
Obama said "Frank" was a father figure and he looked up the places Frank told him about as a child when he got to Chicago. Obama said- "It made me smile, thinking back on Frank and his old Black Power, dashiki self."
Wow. "Frank", Jeremiah Wright, Bill Ayers, and Bernardine Dohrn were all cut from the same piece of cloth.
Made me wonder about Obama's grandfather and mother. They were socialists too? Still working on this.
If you are a bit of a sleuth you can find all kinds of things in old archives on the net.
Did you know Obama's grandparents spent time in Berkeley in the 50s when his mom was a child? It was the time when pot-smoking beatniks were preaching Soviet apologetics and advocating Marxism there.
Did you know Obama's mom and dad met in a Russian language class in Hawaii? What common interest did a man from Kenya and a 17 yr old girl have in learning to speak the Russian language during the cold war?
If I can find all this in a few minutes using the internet- why doesn't the Washington Post/Newsweek (or even Fox News- maybe I will email them) do a decent piece of journalism putting these pieces of Obama's background together and connecting the dots??
Posted by: TYLER DAVIS | October 18, 2008 8:41 AM
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Tyler Davis, thank you for taking a few minutes from RNC Fox news to share your "fair and balanced" insights. Quick, go back to your TV!
Now their airing another "feature" telling us Obama is a terrorist for sure.
Posted by: Roy | October 18, 2008 7:34 AM
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No dear. Never mind.
Posted by: VICTORIA | October 18, 2008 3:18 AM
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Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,
Other than you have been blinded by cult of violent and paranormal-based Islam, is there something else we need to know or read about in your obfuscating commentaries???
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | October 18, 2008 2:21 AM
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Professor Anthony Stevens-Arroyo:
'The most disturbing tendency in the meanderings of this self-described Theo-Con is his reliance on papal and episcopal documents to the prejudice of the words of Jesus Christ found in scripture. While we Catholics are distinguished by our reliance on both tradition and scripture, we don't become super-Catholics by ditching the bible in favor of ecclesiastical pronouncements. As argued here once before, Jesus gave us the measure of Judgment Day in Matthew 25. Our test of discipleship is whether we sheltered the homeless, clothed the naked, fed the hungry and the like. Abortion was not on Jesus' list, so it departs from His teaching to pretend that the "least of my brothers and sisters" really means the unborn. Clearly, Jesus was talking about the living victims of poverty and injustice among us. While sincere Catholics are trying to reconcile a stark political choice either to vote pro-life for the living or pro-life for the unborn, George Weigel has chosen to stay at home. Not helpful.'
__________________________________________________
This kind of Bible interpretation and Catholic teaching is even less helpful.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 18, 2008 2:18 AM
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10 of the 15 protestors are Iraqi War Vetrans.
Posted by: VICTORIA | October 18, 2008 2:00 AM
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Nick Morgan
Branch of service: Army Reserve (USAR)
Unit: A Company 458th Engineering Battallion
Rank: Sergeant
Home: Arnold, Maryland
Served in: Fort Leonard Wood, Fort McCoy, Camp Victory (Kuwait), Baghdad (BIAP), Camp Dawson
I served in the army reserves for a little over four years. I was deployed to Iraq from Feb. 2004-2005 with the 458th En Bn, 1st Cavalry Division. I am currently the Mid-Atlantic Regional Coordinator for IVAW.
I have come to realize many things over the last few years about our government. I was deployed when I was 19 and didn't return home until several months after I turned 21. I was overseas for a year and a week, most of my time was spent in Baghdad (BIAP). I began my deployment with an enthusiastic attitude; I wanted to see the world and serve my country. And strangely, I was still enthusiastic about the mission. As time pressed on, I began to notice some things about the war (occupation) that eventually changed my mind on a lot of issues. I realized that our purpose for being there was not, at the time, what the government and media projected. It was all based on misconceptions and false pretenses. I was appalled, confused, and hurt by the entire situation.
Since my deployment, I have had a rough transition. I have decided to become more involved and make a difference in the world I live in rather than sitting back and watching it crumble around me. I am so thankful that I have found a family as understanding and empowering as Iraq Veterans Against the War.
Peace!
Nick
Is Nick American enough?
Wednesday night Americans waited for presidential candidates, Senators Barack Obama and John McCain, to take the stage at Hofstra University for the final debate before the elections. Outside the debate "15 protesters" were arrested.One person may have received a minor injury." Associated Press.
This is Nick's fractured face after being trampled by mounted police at Wednesday's peaceful protest.
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Meet-the-Protestor-Who--by-Cheryl-Biren-Wrigh-081016-682.html
Posted by: VICTORIA | October 18, 2008 1:06 AM
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Hi LIB, you should try reading these posts sometimes- you might be missing something...
Posted by: VICTORIA | October 17, 2008 11:59 PM
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Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,
Just like the Reality Challenged and Obfuscating Jihadist, you ramble on about US politics while Muslim women in countries around the world are being slaughtered every day in "honor" killings. What don't you understand about about your warmongering, women-abusing, terror-based religion founded by one hallucinating, illiterate and womanizing founder???
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | October 17, 2008 11:42 PM
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Alan Keyes was one of the first to note Obama is a "hard-core academic Marxist". Keyes is brilliant – despite his Ph.D. in government from Harvard University.
Posted by: TARA | October 17, 2008 11:26 PM
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Ginevera-
Arminius remarked-
"My man Obama has slightly more experience than a former president that did pretty well - Abraham Lincoln."
As you can see, Arminius was making a comparison, not of men- but their similar experience or lack thereof.
I responded with-
"Speaking of a man, who clearly had a great deal more than looks to offer, i just heard a great Abraham Lincoln quip-
When accused of being two-faced by someone, he retorted,"If I had two faces, do you really think I would be wearing this one?"
Mentioning Lincoln was in response to ARMINIUS' mention of him.
And, you can also see- I compared PALIN, and the obsession with her looks of her supporters-
with Lincoln-
So, your following statement of - (to me)
"Just FYI: Abraham Lincoln was a REPUBLICAN not liberal democrat. Obama does not compare to him."
Well, there WAS no comparison made, by myself, at all, between Obama and Lincoln-
SO, your next remark-
""Funny thing about America Ginevera-
One is allowed to talk about anyone they choose- or admire anyone they choose."
I don't find that funny Victoria. Many generations of my family have fought and died to give us that right. So when someone makes a false comparison- I will point it out. OK? wink-wink"
Funny, as in strange- not amusing.
So, no comparison made- let alone a false one.
And yes, not many- but EVERY generation of my family going all the way back (pre-revolution times)to my great times 8 granddaddy- John Harris, Sr.- who, family lore has it- hobnobbed with the local tribe and was given the land that is now Harrisburg- as a reward by the fledgling government- that as far as he could walk in 4 different directions on four days would be his. Thus Harrisburg was born. His son-in law-the first Senator of Pennsylvania- William Maclay- was married to my great great some amount I don't know- grandmother-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrisburg,_Pennsylvania
anyway- I have an aunt who is really into this stuff- and have been hearing these stories all of my life.
I'm the one that has the old photos , but only back to like- late 19th century though.
So, my point is- It wasn't ME that fought in those wars- so how can I take credit for actions that were not mine?
The only people who can use military service as proof of their 'americanism' are the people who actually DID serve.
Like Arminius.
Only Arminius has the bona fides to lay any claim as far as I can see.
I did volunteer for DAV (Disable American Veterans) for 3 years- Vietnam Era-
So, good for you, good for me- and much thanks to Arminius. Who is really the only one who has any claim to that disticntion.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Really Victoria, this was a family fracus. Maybe your family never has problems but mine is dysfunctional so I have compassion for all involved.
BTW- all players seem to have moved on and it is only being cycled as a possible"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I appreciate your compassion in this regard.
The ethics breach wasn't concerning Wooten, the brother in law- But the firing of Commissioner of Public Safety Walter Monegan.
Executive Branch Ethics Act- Plain has abused her power as Gov- and violated the trust of the public.
While, it is legal for her to fire anyone she deems deserving- this was not what the inquiry was concerned with.
It was the IMPERMISSABLE EXERTION OF PRESSURE by Palin, her husband, and Top Aides placed on subordinates to fire Wooten, creating a conflict of interest in her subordiinates who had the choice to either please their boss- or face her displeasure.
The extensive documented evidence (many recorded phone calls on record)is not disputed , and Todd Palin has admitted to and conceded the facts of the evidence's credibility.
Palin's defense that Wooten was a real threat to the safety of her and her family, and (so far unproven)allegations that he made a death threat to her father, and tasered his 10 year old stepson, was repsonded to by Branchflower.
He found the threat not a credible defense, because Palin DISMISSED HER WON SECURITY DETAIL soon after she became Gov- from both Anchorage and Juneau and finds it to be INCONSISTENT IF SHE WERE REALLY WORRIED about the safety of her family.
He also stated that, if anything, getting Wooten fired would increase the potential threat.
And that this challenges the basis of Palin's reasons for exercising that firing.
Her abuse of power, and violation of ethics and public trust are a violation of law, and punishable by censure or theoretically impeachment, which, in a republican controlled legislature seems unlikely.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So, there you have it. If this came to light about Obama- I would be disturbed enough to seriously reconsider, and likely- remove my support.
Janet- asked- "Is this a threat?"
No- it was a courtesy to Ginevera- as I wanted to let her kow that my lack of repsonse was not due to disrespect- but that I would simply be away for awhile.
Now Janet can get back to her regular job of projecting racism, and hatred and all sorts of isms at me, although she has never been able to find one post of mine to support her accusations-
I consdier it a public service to absorb her anger- I figure better someone like me-here- than someone in the real world.
Speaking of absorbing anger- I am sure Concerned the Christian Now Liberated, or just LIB as I like to call him- will be delighted at this insight into my personal history.
I made a vague reference to it once, almost 2 years ago now- and it has been making him crazy trying to remember what it was I said.
I must say- Ginevera is a particularly lovely name- at least to my ears- we called my mom Ginny, and vera means truth- I have a soft spot I guess- but i have never heard that name before.
So, we can agree to disagree- we both like different people for different reasons.
Something in Palin sparks for you- she kind of repulses me a bit. I find her phony and something of a bully.
I have definite subsantial reasons- she incites people to hatred and malevolence- I find those questionable talents-
to each her own I guess.
Posted by: VICTORIA | October 17, 2008 11:20 PM
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I read a comment on a blog that stated the same thing I did earlier: Obama is a good candidate, but newspapers should maintain neutrality.
Endorsing any candidate publicly destroys a certain amount of credibility in the newspaper. People do not want mainstream newspapers to be propaganda machines for any politician, especially given the danger of being presented with distorted version of facts when the candidate becomes the leader of the nation.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 17, 2008 11:20 PM
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Barack Obama's childhood mentor, Frank Marshall Davis, a member of the Moscow-controlled Communist Party USA, wrote a poem dedicated to the Soviet Red Army. "Smash on, victory-eating Red Army," he declared. He also wrote poems attacking traditional Christianity and the work of Christian missionaries.
The "Red Army" poem goes beyond hoping for the communists to beat the Nazis in World War II and hails the Soviet revolution. It says:
"Show the marveling multitudes
Americans, British, all your allied brothers
How strong you are
How great you are
How your young tree of new unity
Planted twenty-five years ago
Bears today the golden fruit of victory!"
One Davis poem, "Christ is a Dixie Ngger," dismisses Christ as "another New White Hope" and declares:
"Remember this, you wise guys
Your tales about Jesus of Nazareth are no-go with me
I've got a dozen Christs in Dixie all bloody and black…"
The revelations about Davis' poetry will add to the controversy over what kind of role Davis played in shaping Obama's political views. Davis (1905-1987) seems to have had the same kind of anti-American outlook that animated Obama's longtime pastor, Jeremiah Wright. In fact, Davis was pro-Soviet, not just anti-American.
Posted by: TYLER DAVIS | October 17, 2008 11:06 PM
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Would Senator Obama shift his position on FOCA, in keeping with his commitment to welfare of vulnerable human beings - CREATED BY GOD BEFORE THEY ARE BORN WITH THE CONSENT OF ITS MOTHER?
Posted by: Anonymous | October 17, 2008 10:43 PM
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An African American Senator, Alan Keyes, with a different take on abortion based on his Christian faith:
Posted by: Anonymous | October 17, 2008 10:40 PM
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From the report of the American Medical Association 1859:
With strange inconsistency, the law fully acknowledges the foetus in utero and its inherent rights, for civil purposes; while personally and as criminally affected, it fails to recognize it, and to its life as yet denies all protection." Id., at 75-76.
The Committee then offered, and the Association adopted, resolutions protesting "against such unwarrantable destruction of human life," calling upon state legislatures to revise their abortion laws, and requesting the cooperation of state medical societies "in pressing the subject." Id., at 28, 78.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 17, 2008 10:20 PM
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NARRATOR: What would you do as President? Fix the economy? End the war? Restore our schools?
SEN. OBAMA: The first thing I'd do as President is sign the Freedom of Choice Act.
NARRATOR: Really? Obamas top priority as President will be a law to reinstate partial-birth abortion, eliminate parental notification, and force taxpayers to fund abortions?
SEN. OBAMA: On this fundamental issue I will not yield and Planned Parenthood will not yield.
NARRATOR: Barack Obama...dangerous values.
Family Research Council Action PAC is responsible for the content of this advertising.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0__ctD48nfQ
Barack Obama's Denial Of Medical Assistance To Born Alive Infants
Posted by: JAMES | October 17, 2008 10:15 PM
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Arminius,
I understand Victoria all too well and have often so demonstrated. If you want to chat, I'd rather discuss the more interesting subject of a simple Ragu.
Posted by: Janet | October 17, 2008 10:03 PM
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How exactly does FREEDOM OF CHOICE ACT serve to reduce abortions when it is meant to overturn all the state restrictions put in place preventing unlimited access to abortions?
Abortion statistics from other countries prove that stricter legislation has a direct impact on reducing abortions. That is corroborated with US statistics in states which has stricter controls.
Why exactly does Senator Obama act as if he is pressured by Planned Parenthood, Naral and other abortion providers as lobby groups?
Posted by: Anonymous | October 17, 2008 9:58 PM
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Janet,
Victoria can be difficult to deal with, to be sure. But once understanding is in place, much can be learned. I'm sorry, but I have not seen much understanding from you yet. Can you try?
Posted by: Arminius | October 17, 2008 9:56 PM
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PS: Another Anonymous has addressed post to Victoria.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 17, 2008 9:50 PM
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Why current thrust of education on abortion is pro-abortion:
1. There is absolutely no mention of the unborn child in the womb, no details of fetal development.
2. The emphasis is on the "right" granted to women as per Roe vs Wade.
3. Adoption is mentioned as an obligation, but the thrust is on how adoption gives the adoptive parents all the rights over the child, that cannot be reversed. (So is killing the unborn child a better
option than giving full rights to adoptive parents?!!!)
4. Abortion procedures are mentioned in a matter of fact way without mentioning its impact on the living and growing unborn child.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 17, 2008 9:48 PM
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Arminius,
I am among those who have concluded that Victoria is a moron. Our number is not small. Fighting with her would be like trying to reason with a can of spaghetti sauce. It is what it is.
Posted by: Janet | October 17, 2008 9:29 PM
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Janet:
" VICTORIA:
I will not be able to respond for awhile as my husband and I are going to eat our dinner now.
But, I will come back.
Did anyone ask? Is this a threat?"
No, it is a promise. And I look forward to her return. You seem anxious for a fight, not a discussion.
Posted by: Arminius | October 17, 2008 9:26 PM
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Sheepish? See dictionary and get back to me.
Posted by: Janet | October 17, 2008 9:24 PM
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"Did anyone ask? Is this a threat?"
Sheesh Janet.. NO
The threat was from Comrade Arminius-
"I am quite liberal, and we liberals are arming."
Posted by: Anonymous | October 17, 2008 9:19 PM
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" VICTORIA:
I will not be able to respond for awhile as my husband and I are going to eat our dinner now.
But, I will come back."
Did anyone ask? Is this a threat?
Posted by: Janet | October 17, 2008 9:08 PM
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Btw, although my political leanings are more in favor of liberal politics, I'm neither a Democrat nor a Republican. IMHO, there is only gray in politics and it is necessary to keep a certain distance to have clearer vision of all politics. One votes the shade of gray that appeals to one best, being fully aware there is only gray in politics.
Remaining independent best serves religion and politics. Assess merit of issues not personalities. Personal integrity is important, not an artificially created persona.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 17, 2008 8:52 PM
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IMHO, Professor S-A is a partisan political hack trying to deliver Hispanic and other Catholic votes to Senator Obama. It is a pity that he is portrayed as representing Catholic views.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 17, 2008 8:43 PM
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"Funny thing about America Ginevera-
One is allowed to talk about anyone they choose- or admire anyone they choose."
I don't find that funny Victoria. Many generations of my family have fought and died to give us that right. So when someone makes a false comparison- I will point it out. OK? wink-wink
That's a rather predictible question. So..
I guess you support a public safety commissioner who will not fire a trooper who admits tasering his stepson, illegally killing a moose and admits to the multiple reprimands found in his file.
Then a separate state trooper investigation found credible evidence he had a habit of drinking in his patrol car.
I wonder how you would like it if your 10-year old nephew was tasered by his state trooper stepdad in the midst of being divorced by your sister?
Really Victoria, this was a family fracus. Maybe your family never has problems but mine is dysfunctional so I have compassion for all involved.
BTW- all players seem to have moved on and it is only being cycled as a possible smear against Sarah Palin. Wasn't that your motivation in asking me to comment?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyqnLpPTFco
Posted by: Ginevera | October 17, 2008 8:40 PM
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To Professor Stevens-Arroyo, panelist, Catholic America:
"But Obama's record on abortion is extreme. He opposed the ban on partial-birth abortion -- a practice a fellow Democrat, the late Daniel Patrick Moynihan, once called "too close to infanticide." Obama strongly criticized the Supreme Court decision upholding the partial-birth ban. In the Illinois state Senate, he opposed a bill similar to the Born-Alive Infants Protection Act, which prevents the killing of infants mistakenly left alive by abortion. And now Obama has oddly claimed that he would not want his daughters to be "punished with a baby" because of a crisis pregnancy -- hardly a welcoming attitude toward new life."
Michael Gerson
The Washington Post
Wednesday, April 2, 2008
Posted by: Anonymous | October 17, 2008 8:37 PM
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To Professor Stevens-Arroyo, panelist, Catholic America:
Roe vs Wade
6. The position of the American Medical Association. The anti-abortion mood prevalent in this country in the late 19th century was shared by the medical profession. Indeed, the attitude of the profession may have played a significant role in the enactment of stringent criminal abortion legislation during that period.
An AMA Committee on Criminal Abortion was appointed in May 1857. It presented its report, 12 Trans. of the Am. Med. Assn. 73-78 (1859), to the Twelfth Annual Meeting. That report observed that the Committee had been appointed to investigate criminal abortion "with a view to its general suppression." It deplored abortion and its frequency and it listed three causes of "this general demoralization":
"The first of these causes is a wide-spread popular ignorance of the true character of the crime -- a belief, even among mothers themselves, that the foetus is not alive till after the period of quickening.
"The second of the agents alluded to is the fact that the profession themselves are frequently supposed careless of foetal life . . . .
"The third reason of the frightful extent of this crime is found in the grave defects of our laws, both common and statute, as regards the independent and actual existence of the child before birth, as a living being. These errors, which are sufficient in most instances to prevent conviction, are based, and only based, upon mistaken and exploded medical dogmas. With strange inconsistency, the law fully acknowledges the foetus in utero and its inherent rights, for civil purposes; while personally and as criminally affected, it fails to recognize it, and to its life as yet denies all protection." Id., at 75-76. The Committee then offered, and the Association adopted, resolutions protesting "against such unwarrantable destruction of human life," calling upon state legislatures to revise their abortion laws, and requesting the cooperation of state medical societies "in pressing the subject." Id., at 28, 78.
In 1871 a long and vivid report was submitted by the Committee on Criminal Abortion. It ended with the observation, "We had to deal with human life. In a matter of less importance we could entertain no compromise. An honest judge on the bench would call things by their proper names. We could do no less." 22 Trans. of the Am. Med. Assn. 258 (1871). It proffered resolutions, adopted by the Association, id., at 38-39, recommending, among other things, that it "be unlawful and unprofessional for any physician to induce abortion or premature labor, without the concurrent opinion of at least one respectable consulting physician, and then always with a view to the safety of the child -- if that be possible," and calling "the attention of the clergy of all denominations to the perverted views of morality entertained by a large class of females -- aye, and men also, on this important question."
Except for periodic condemnation of the criminal abortionist, no further formal AMA action took place until 1967. In that year, the Committee on Human Reproduction urged the adoption of a stated policy of opposition to induced abortion, except when there is "documented medical evidence" of a threat to the health or life of the mother, or that the child "may be born with incapacitating physical deformity or mental deficiency," or that a pregnancy "resulting from legally established statutory or forcible rape or incest may constitute a threat to the mental or physical health of the patient," two other physicians "chosen because of their recognized professional competence have examined the patient and have concurred in writing, " and the procedure "is performed in a hospital accredited by the Joint Commission on Accreditation of Hospitals." The providing of medical information by physicians to state legislatures in their consideration of legislation regarding therapeutic abortion was "to be considered consistent with the principles of ethics of the American Medical Association." This recommendation was adopted by the House of Delegates. Proceedings of the AMA House of Delegates 40-51 (June 1967)...
Posted by: Anonymous | October 17, 2008 8:34 PM
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To Professor Stevens-Arroyo, panelist, Catholic America:
http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/browsearchive.php?selection=archive/George_Robert
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/us_elections_2008/7673042.stm
_____________________________________
It is one thing to say that Catholics could vote for Senator Obama based on the merit of his social policies, but quite another to defend abortion, and thrash the teaching of the Catholic Church on it. Dragging Jesus Christ to support abortion is outright blasphemy! It is to imply that even a Greek pagan, Hippocrates, the Father of Western medicine, had more compassion for the unborn child, than Jesus, whom all Christians worship as the Son of God.
Jesus Christ did not specifically mention pedophilia was wrong either. Considering pedastry was common in Greek pagan society, one should conclude pedophilia was acceptable to Jesus, wouldn't it?
Professor S-A should really meditate on Psalm 139 and Luke chapter 1 and read the writings of early Christians on this topic before spouting heretic nonsense.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 17, 2008 8:30 PM
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Arminius, what about the relentless marketing of Senator Obama as "the One," the "celebrity" for FOUR years?
And Goveror Palin's rise to political positions, with her own brand of tough politics as an ordinary woman with no family wealth or connections, as Mayor and first woman and youngest Governor being treated as non-achievements?
Posted by: Anonymous | October 17, 2008 8:10 PM
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Sorry, the rumors about Govenor Palin's fifth child was generated on the Internet and posted on this forum, among other places, by a couple of Obama supporters.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 17, 2008 8:02 PM
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I will not be able to respond for awhile as my husband and I are going to eat our dinner now.
But, I will come back.
Posted by: VICTORIA | October 17, 2008 8:02 PM
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Funny thing about America Ginevera-
One is allowed to talk about anyone they choose- or admire anyone they choose.
So- if I want to quote Lincoln- gosh darn it! I will.
Arminius and I , I believe try to keep some standard of good manners- we can discuss and be mannerly-
Since I asked a direct question first, would you mind commenting upon your impression of Palin and the finding by the bi-partisan committee that she abused her powers as governor and violated public trust and ethics standards?
Soes this not give you an unfavorable insght into her past, and indicates what her future adminstrative standards might entail?
She is next in line for the presidency, McCain is an older gentleman- and it is relevant.
You will find I am not going to call names- or try to assassinate characters here- nor use hyperbolic exagerations to make a point.
Just the facts, Ma'am.
I kind of insist on a level of civility in dialogue.
Thanks
Posted by: VICTORIA | October 17, 2008 8:01 PM
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Good one, Victoria. It is curious how all the supporters of St Sarah dwell on her sexiness and cheerleader perky attitude. Yeah, right. The thought of those characteristics being brought to a negotiating table with Putin for nuclear disarmament make me want to vomit. Can you imagine the Wicked Witch of Wasilla saying, 'Hi! Can I call you Vlad?'
Puke.
And how about McCain? In 2000, I was entranced by him, I would have voted for him, I would have campaigned for him. But now? This tired, broken down old man, has genuflected before Bush and Rove, the two bastards who backstabbed him eight years ago. He has stood up, dropped trow, and bent over for any right winger who happens by. He has hired the very people who ruined him in South Carolina. He has completely prostituted himself. Do we want a bought commodity in the oval office? Or do we want a man who cannot be bought, cannot be rattled, will stand tall and proud?
Posted by: Arminius | October 17, 2008 7:59 PM
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When Governor Sarah Palin was nomination the flood of negative articles that followed was exactly the opposite. She was ripped apart so mercilessly, and not a good word to say about the accomplishments of an ordinary woman who had worked her way to the top, first as Mayor of her town, then as the first female and youngest Governor of Alaska.
Why?
Her pro-life stand was portrayed as a liability, her refusal to abort her child with Down's Syndrome was portrayed as a crime! Rumours were floated in the media that her fifth child was actually her grandchild, the product of an incestual relationship. When she introduced her pregnant daughter to rid herself of the false accusation, she was accused of using her family as publicity stunt. She could do nothing right! What a shame! What a shame indeed. She is the woman who combined family and career successfully. She has a happy marriage. All that could be portrayed as the wonderful thing that it is.
Her qualification for VP should have been dealt with as a separate issue. She was accused of being capable of no more than reading out prepared answers, how she was being coached by Republicans etc. Not a single word of comparison with Senator Obama, who likewise had help with his speeches and had been groomed over several years, not a couple of weeks like Sarah Palin who had been picked on the eve of the election.
Senator Obama and Governor Palin were always judged by double standards. Senator McCain got a thrashing too, and his achievements were not mentioned.
And it disturbed me greatly even if my political leanings are liberal based on my values (except for abortion - there is nothing liberal about killing an unborn child, and using a whole "sophisticated" vocabulary to disguise the heinous act).
Posted by: Anonymous | October 17, 2008 7:56 PM
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Victoria
Just FYI: Abraham Lincoln was a REPUBLICAN not liberal democrat. Obama does not compare to him.
And maybe you haven't figured this out but Sarah Palin is NOT running for President.
Are you arming like your fellow liberal Arminius?
Do you agree with the Marxists mentors and associates of Barack and Michelle (for the first time in my adult life I am proud of my country) Obama?
Listen to law partner of Michelle Obama and admitted unrepentant terrorist- Bernardine Dohrn spew her hatred of America just a year ago:
Obama supporter and Chicago Democrat activist, the failed revolutionary and 1960s violent drug child, Bernadine Dohrn speaking to a reunion of the radical socialist organization SDS in 2007 about overthrowing Capitalism.
Posted by: Ginevera | October 17, 2008 7:52 PM
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Arminius:
Ginevera :
Oh, how bloody damn splendid.
St Sarah the Moose slayer has kids and is photogenic at her age.
She has obvious courage, perhaps to a fault.
And she is cheerful and perky, a living walking and talking happy face.
Oh, be still, my beating heart....
Please do explain how these characteristic make her presidential material.
And while you're at it, explain how she is immune to cronyism, when her record in Alaska says otherwise.
And tell us what direction she is giving to America besides more of the same, and a possible move to a theocracy.
Of course many sheep are bleating with joy to follow. What else is new?
I once considered moving to Canada if McWorse and the Trailer Trash of the Tundra win. I decided to stay here and man the barricades. I have children to defend.
October 17, 2008 4:48 PM
__________________________________________
Those of us who followed the pro-Obama media coverage, those of us who would vote for him because of the social policies of the Democratic platform he represents, happen to remember that for four *years* Senator Obama's IMAGE as a person, has been used to promote him as a *PRODUCT, The ONE, A Celebrity.* Everything was based on the rhetoric of his 2004 DNC speech (conceived and written in great part his political mentor David Axelrod, who also happens to have helped him his autobiography geared to creating a future president). Right on top of the marketing strategy was Obama's command of religious rhetoric. Almost nothing was mentioned about his achievements, either before the time he entered politics or after it. It is only more recently that his policies for the US is being highlighted and compared with Senator McCain's.
Check all the articles published about Senator Obama since the speech in 2004 to verify.
Promoting a politician on a religious platform (this is a faith forum, and Jesus said His kingdom was not of this world, wanted people to give God what belonged to God and to Caesar what belonged to Caesar, without mixing the two up, remember?) got on my nerves despite my liberal political leanings.
So I wrote over and over again: Compare the policies, compare the policies, compare the policies and then VOTE!!!
Posted by: Anonymous | October 17, 2008 7:41 PM
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Ginevera, you seemed to have overlooked the previous 4,380 days Obama served as a state Senator in Illinois.
So, that is 4,523- in reality, not a paltry 143.
If you want to include Palin's service as a council member(I've been a council member myself for a few years), it still falls short.
Funny, how every single Pro-Palin poster finds it necessary to pump up her resume with comments on her looks.
Joe Biden is a pretty darn good looking fellow, yet never once, have I heard anyone mention this in listing his qualities as a politican.
Isn't that a bit sexist/lookist?
Speaking of a man, who clearly had a great deal more than looks to offer, i just heard a great Abraham Lincoln quip-
When accused of being two-faced by someone, he retorted,"If I had two faces, do you really think I would be wearing this one?"
So, let's just stick to character then.
Palin won the gubernatorial race in Alaska by attacking her incumbent oponents ethics, as he had been brought up on charges-
Fast forward to 2008- Palin is not only brought up on- but- after stating (before her nomination as VP) that she would allow complete transparency and cooperate fully in the investigation of ethics violations levied against her by te republican and democratic bi-partisan legislative committee-
AFTER her nomination, Palin the VP nominee not only blocks and stonewalls all efforts to pursue said investigation, (O where is the transparency, Sarah?) hides the email evidence-
(O Yes, Todd the First Dude offered to SELL those emails to the Associated Press today-
FOR 15 MILLION DOLLARS!!!)
They said, Thanks, but no thanks, Todd.
Hmmmm- we are known by the company we keep,eh?
Couldn't give those up before the investigation, coerced and bullied 7 subordinates into not giving their emails and info either-
(And of course, no one mentions that america hating secessionist movement Todd belonged to for 7 years)
And when the bi-partisan committee finds that Palin is indeed in violation of the state ethics, and found to have abused her power-
She claims she has been vindicated!!!!
That takes some major cajones for sure. Giant brass ones.
Care to comment on Palin's being found abusing her power and violating the public trust and in violation of the state ethics guidleine?
Kind of exactly like what happened to her predecessor???
Now we have Stevens, her buddy, charged with conflict of interest in the construction of his home and didn't Palin also USE THE SAME CONTRACTORS that built that white elephant of a hockey rink that left Wasilla in 20 million dollars debt to build her own home???
You betcha!
Wink! Wink!
Posted by: VICTORIA | October 17, 2008 7:35 PM
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Anonymous:
Ok, I'm not sure if this is the same "anaonymous" But what type of birth control are you talking about with a 14% risk?
Condoms are 98% effective when used correctly (check the CDC website).
Birth control pills are 99% effective, but offer no STD protection.
NOw, young woman can increase protection by using the contraceptive sponge or other methods (although they don't reduce the risk of disease)eas a back-up to condom use.
So where does your 14% come from? Let's talk about what methods you mean...
October 16, 2008 9:25 PM
__________________________________________________
From abortion statistics. The women who claimed they or their partners had been using contraceptive methods and yet it had failed.
It is one thing to have 98% or whatever success rate in a carefully controlled clinical trial. But most human beings are having sex outside a clinical trial and therefore do not follow the strict guidelines in the use of contraceptives.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 17, 2008 7:21 PM
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Arminius says-
"I am quite liberal, and we liberals are arming."
Really?
Do you mean like Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn armed themselves?
Look at these old radical farts- still calling America "the empire" and shouting "down with capitalism" and spouting their devotion to Marx and Mao and laughing at the holes in their memory due after years of illegal drug use.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjcS6QFtn_g
Obama and Michelle should have walked away from these people but they associated with them and other Marxists like their "God damn America" pastor and Obama's childhood father figure member of American Communist Party- Frank Davis.
Do you agree with these people's politics, Arminius?
Posted by: Ginevera | October 17, 2008 7:12 PM
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Ginevera:
My man Obama has slightly more experience than a former president that did pretty well - Abraham Lincoln.
The Neanderthal of the North and McWorse would be the kiss of death to what remains of America. Their total incompetence and neolithic policies would usher in a final dark age, closing eight years of idiocy, dragging of knuckles, parading around aircraft carriers, my God! Jesus Himself must be weeping at the misdeeds of the neocons.
I am a veteran, Vietnam era. I still hold to the first part of my soldier's oath, to defend our Constitution against all enemies, domestic and foreign. I am 65 years old. I am quite liberal, and we liberals are arming.
Posted by: Arminius | October 17, 2008 6:27 PM
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"Of course many sheep are bleating with joy to follow. What else is new?"
Arminius that is your only true instinct concerning Sarah Palin.
She is a natural politician, a true leader who has shown her strength by enduring this whirlwind trial by fire with grace and ease.
Americans love her and she will be taking a place of leadership here.
Corny but its her destiny- you'd have to be blind not to see it written all over her life.
So you can call her Trailer Trash of the Tundra and St Sarah the Moose slayer but be warned- you spit into a strong wind..
Posted by: Ginevera | October 17, 2008 5:44 PM
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Arminius consider this:
You couldn't get a job at McDonalds and become district manager after 143 days of experience.
You couldn't become chief of surgery after 143 days of experience of being a surgeon.
You couldn't get a job as a teacher and be the school district superintendent after 143 days of experience.
You couldn't join the military and become a colonel after 143 days of experience.
You couldn't get a job as a reporter and become the nightly news anchor after 143 days of experience.
BUT....
From the time Barack Obama was sworn in as a United State Senator, to the time he announced he was forming a Presidential exploratory committee, he logged 143 days of experience in the Senate.
That's how many days the Senate was actually in session and working.
After 143 days of work experience- Obama believed he was ready to be Commander In Chief, Leader of the Free World .... 143 days.
We all have to start somewhere. The senate is a good start, but after 143 days- that's all it is -a start.
AND, strangely, a large sector of the American public is okay with this and campaigning for him. We wouldn't accept this in our own line of work, yet some are okay with this for the President of the United States of America?
Come on Arminius- we are not voting for the next American Idol.........
Posted by: Ginevera | October 17, 2008 5:19 PM
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Ginevera :
Oh, how bloody damn splendid.
St Sarah the Moose slayer has kids and is photogenic at her age.
She has obvious courage, perhaps to a fault.
And she is cheerful and perky, a living walking and talking happy face.
Oh, be still, my beating heart....
Please do explain how these characteristic make her presidential material.
And while you're at it, explain how she is immune to cronyism, when her record in Alaska says otherwise.
And tell us what direction she is giving to America besides more of the same, and a possible move to a theocracy.
Of course many sheep are bleating with joy to follow. What else is new?
I once considered moving to Canada if McWorse and the Trailer Trash of the Tundra win. I decided to stay here and man the barricades. I have children to defend.
Posted by: Arminius | October 17, 2008 4:48 PM
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There goes the Reality Challenged and Obfuscating Jihadist again still not getting the message about her warmongering, women-abusing, terror-based religion founded by one hallucinating, illiterate and womanizing founder. Her brainwashing runs deep so we must continue our cleansing campaign as good, caring humans should do for all lost souls.
And suggesting Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Sir Rushdie go back to their "home" countries? Give us a break!!! Citizens of these countries can read "Infidel" and "The Satanic Verses" on their own. Hmmm, or can they without some crazy iman/cleric "fatwaing" them or simply stoning them via some koranic stupidity???
Some infamous fatwa
"Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini in 1989 pronounced a death sentence on Salman Rushdie, the author of The Satanic Verses."
Sheik Sadeq Abdallah bin Al-Majed, leader of the Muslim Brotherhood in Sudan, issued a fatwa that prohibits vaccination of children claiming it is a conspiracy of the Jews and Freemasons.[4][5]
Indian Muslim scholars issued a fatwa of death against Taslima Nasreen, an exiled controversial Bangladeshi writer. Majidulla Khan Farhad of Hyderabad-based Majlis Bachao Tehriq issued the fatwa at the Tipu Sultan mosque in Kolkata after Juma prayers as saying Taslima has defamed Islam and announced “unlimited financial reward” to anybody who would kill her. [6]
In 1998, Grand Ayatollah Sistani of Iraq, issued a fatwa prohibiting University of Virginia professor Abdulaziz Sachedina from ever again teaching Islam due in part to Sachedina's writings encouraging acceptance of religious pluralism in the Muslim world[7].
Osama bin Laden issued two fatwas—in 1996 and then again in 1998—that Muslims should kill civilians and military personnel from the United States and allied countries until they withdraw support for Israel and withdraw military forces from Islamic countries.[8][9]
In 2005, the Leader of the Islamic Republic of Iran, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has issued the Fatwa that the production, stockpiling and use of nuclear weapons are forbidden under Islam and that Iran shall never acquire these weapons. (Apparently the current Iranian leadership neglected to read that one.)
In 2008, undercover reporting by a private TV channel in India showed several respected clerics demanding and receiving cash for issue of fatwas. In response, some were suspended from issuing fatwas and Indian Muslim leaders announced that they would create a new body that will monitor the issuing of fatwas in India.[10][11]
In 2008, a Pakistani religious leader issued a fatwa on President Asif Ali Zardari for "indecent gestures" toward Sarah Palin, U.S. Vice Presidential candidate."
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | October 17, 2008 4:36 PM
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"I can understand avoiding Palin"
uh oh Taddles. I'm afraid Sarah Palin will be with us for a long long time.
If she could be broken- the media would have broken her by now. She seems to thrive through their barrage of hatred and defilement. She is cheerfully filling the demands of her position.
What is more telling- she cannot take a bad picture. She has had five children and is as fresh and limber as a teenager.
She is blazing her own trail and thinking on her feet. She is absolutely unmoved by DC and has never been touched by the stench of old club cronyism pervasive there. In fact- she makes members of that club sh*t their drawers.
She is drawing a huge number of Americans to her because she gives them a voice and direction. If the media were wise- they would step back because her shadow is going to fall on them. Obama wisely did not even speak her name.
Posted by: Ginevera | October 17, 2008 3:52 PM
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1 Corinthians 7:13-15 (13) And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. (14) For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.
(15) But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances….
Posted by: Anonymous | October 17, 2008 3:31 PM
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I can understand avoiding Palin, she's a bad subject for both Candidates. She is the living embodiment of McCains poor judgment and she is a land mine of hate speech for Obama. Avoiding Palin for the rest of this campaign would be best for all involved, including the voters.
As to God in the race, God and religion should have no place in the race for President. As much as the right wing would like everyone to believe that our forefathers created the US as a "Christian nation", that is simply not true. There is no mention of the word God anywhere in the Constitution and there are specifically no religious "litmus tests" for any public office. We are not a Christian nation, we are a nation with a lot of Christians in it and those Christians need to stop their arrogant uninformed claim to the leadership roles of this country.
Posted by: Taddles | October 17, 2008 3:03 PM
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Oops! Sorry for the double post. A biotechnical glitch of the finger.
J
Posted by: Jihadist | October 17, 2008 2:46 PM
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Concerned The Christian Now Liberated,
Yo! Concy pussycat! Want to get religous, no? Okay. This is On Faith after all.
CCNL: "Accept these five "cleansers" and we guarantee a complete recovery from your Islamic ways!!!!"
Thanks but, nahhhhhh Crossanized missionary man. I like being drunk in belief of God, angels, satan, heaven and hell.
Kola Boof : "I want my own religion!"
Want to ship Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Salman Rushdie back to their countries, societies and belief of origin to reform Muslims? Or are they just "brave" and "courageous" whining and griping from the "shelters" in the west? People I know got vilified, detained or killed for their political or religious beliefs in the third world. They are the real brave and courageous ones and never made a buck from their trials and tribulations with book sales, media appearances, lecture circuits and such. And, I am not just talking about Muslims. No one in On Faith seem seized by Asian Hindus or Buddhists detained or killed for what they believe in to shape their respective societies in the right path. Except for Farnaz on what is happening in Thailand.
"Assuredly, the creation of the heavens and earth is a greater matter than the creation of men, yet most men understand not."
....and that quote is my wee bit on religion in the On Faith "public square" for today.
Cheers pussycat.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Salaam Victoria,
Go ahead. Take what you want from my posts. It is, after all, in the public domain. I am not a professional writer to get all worked up on copyright and royalties on and for what I wrote.
It would perhaps, be better if I wrote on the missionary position as, "One imposing his position, ideas and values on top of and above all others", no? But too wordy, yes?
Getting off here
Wassalam and see you around
J
Posted by: Jihadist | October 17, 2008 2:31 PM
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Concerned The Christian Now Liberated,
Yo! Concy pussycat! Want to get religous, no? Okay. This is On Faith after all.
CCNL: "Accept these five "cleansers" and we guarantee a complete recovery from your Islamic ways!!!!"
Thanks but, nahhhhhh Crossanized missionary man. I like being drunk in belief of God, angels, satan, heaven and hell.
Kola Boof : "I want my own religion!"
Want to ship Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Salman Rushdie back to their countries, societies and belief of origin to reform Muslims? Or are they just "brave" and "courageous" whining and griping from the "shelters" in the west?
"Assuredly, the creation of the heavens and earth is a greater matter than the creation of men, yet most men understand not."
....and that ends my wee bit on religion in the public square for today.
Cheers pussycat.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Salaam Victoria,
Go ahead. Take what you want from my posts. It is, after all, in the public domain. I am not a professional writer to get all worked up on copyright and royalties on and for what I wrote.
It would perhaps, be better if I wrote on the missionary position as, "One imposing his position, ideas and values on top of and above all others", no? But too wordy, yes?
Getting off here
Wassalam and see you around
J
Posted by: Jihadist | October 17, 2008 2:22 PM
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Oops- the last post was mine.
Jihadist cleverly quipped-
"No one wants a missionary position anymore -one always on top of the other in ideas and actions."
Good one. If you don't mind terribly, I'd liketo co-opt that little gem. :)
Posted by: VICTORIA | October 17, 2008 2:14 PM
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Meluna stated,
"It would be ironic wouldn't it, that the same babies you fight to keep in this world, die because you won't pay higher taxes for their medical care."
Interesting point, I was reading an article late last night about infant mortality in the USA-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Oct. 17,2008
U.S. Falls Behind Other Countries in Infant Mortality
from the Los Angeles Times (Registration Required)
After a century of declines, the U.S. infant mortality rate barely budged between 2000 and 2005, causing the United States to slip further behind other developed countries despite spending more on healthcare, according to a report
released Wednesday.
The rate was 6.86 infant deaths per 1,000 live births in 2005, virtually unchanged from 6.89 in 2000. In 1900, the rate was 100 deaths per 1,000 live births. The United States dropped to 29th in the world in infant mortality in 2004, the latest year for which data are available from all countries, tying with Poland and Slovakia. The year before, it was 27th. In 1960, it was 12th.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Since Joe the Plumber has gotten so much attention- (who, by the way has been a registered republican all of his life) it is appropriate to link the actual 5 minute conversation instead of the 15 second sound bite all FOX news watchers parrot-
(That's you Karen- I'm watching Fox right now- but I also watch C-Span and MSNBC-)
Different opinions give us a well-rounded view of things, and force us to see the other guy's side- so we can get along and have each other's interests at heart- not just root for our own team to the detriment of the other team-
It's a 5 minute conversation-
http://www.nowpublic.com/world/meet-joe-plumber
Nothing gets my Dad,Paul the Electrician Six-Pack, more riled, than when I suggest he turn off FOX news-
"Our media reminds me of the propaganda run on Soviet TV and paper Pravda. Don't you hate it when they try to tell you what to think by having everyone repeat, repeat, repeat the same three talking points."
I sure do- I have the same impression of Fox news-
Ivan remarked-
"I'll be voting for the man who will inspire our military to serve with honor."
I do also Ivan, that's why I spent 3 years of my life serving those who served most honorably and sacrificed most notably at the Disabled American Veterans.(Vietnam Era)
Mostly paraplegics because it was the Long Beach Chapter, and the Long Beach Hospital had the largest spinal cord injury department to serve them.
Also, since so many of them were homeless, it is easier to be homeless where it is warm all the time.
That is why I don't want to spend the next years of my life serving a new generation of crippled soldiers-
That is the reality, and I am voting my conscience, to do the most to honor this new crop of young men and women.
Veterans have given John McCain a grade of D.
Barck Obama has gotten a B+
These grades are based on their voting records regarding care taken of our veterans.
I am also interested in what you consider our values and way of life.
There are alot of us in America so it doesn't always ean the samething for different people.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 17, 2008 2:09 PM
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"Traditionally, marriage has been a union between a man and a 13-year-old girl's father"
Yes, I know it's irrelevant, but I just thought up that witticism and this is the only board I can post to. Feel free to spread it!
Posted by: Anonymous | October 17, 2008 1:39 PM
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And still the Reality Challenged and Obfuscating Jihadist rambles on still ducking the flaws and errors of Islam that weighs so heavy on its one billion members.
Once again, we offer said Jihadist our Five Step Program to escape her years of Muslim brainwashing:
Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.
"1. Belief in Allah"
"aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added to your cleansing neurons.
"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."
Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gib Gnab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "creationist".
"3. To believe in the existence of angels."
A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.
"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."
Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels/"pwtfft"s to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.
Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.
Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.
"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."
Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for Muslim women and non-believers.
Accept these five "cleansers" and we guarantee a complete recovery from your Islamic ways!!!!
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | October 17, 2008 1:07 PM
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Ivan Shukhov - there are righteous wars and just plain wrong-headed wars. I was in the last wrong-headed war along with John McCain....and it's apparent that he's still trying to win that one via the wrongful war in Iraq.
Again, don't make the mistake that so many seem to make with McCain - he's a POW, ergo a superb person to entrust with the fate of the nation because of his alleged empathy with the military - in fact, he relates to the Pentagon and the high ranking DOD types, rather than the grunts on the ground that are carrying everyone's water in this war.
He's been in the Washington limelight for over 25 years and is now a very rich man - he's no longer a POW.
Had we stayed in Afghanistan rather than straying into and then occupying Iraq on unwarranted premises, we might have succeeded where the Russians failed - a campaign that apparently broke the collective back of the old Soviet Union.
We might have liberated Afghanis from their Taliban masters - as it is, switching our attention (and troops) from Iraq to Afghanistan now will be too little too late.
How to completely re-build an economy based almost exclusively on poppy harvests and a pervasive medieval culture from the ground up - with an increasingly restless and nationalist Pakistan looking over our shoulders? A country that is indeed not only a hotbed of Islamic fundamentalism, but with significant nuclear capacity as well (potentially a far greater threat than Iran in it's nuclear infancy has ever presented).
In fact, folks are no longer in the mood to keep spending unending billions on futile wars - look for big changes all over the place after this next election.
At this point in time, McCain has long ago seen his best days - his decision to take on Palin as his VP should single-handedly disqualify him as Presidential material, based on his raw cynical ambition over sound judgement.
While the global war on terror has become everyone's global nightmare, that war is not and has never been fought soley in Iraq - it's fair to say that we alone brought that particular war to Iraq by invading a sovereign nation based exclusively on covert Bush regime nation-building policies. In retrospect, that's all any informed person can say about it.
Frankly, after this election no President would have the juice to keep going in Iraq without major and fundamental changes - not even John McCain.
Posted by: persiflage | October 17, 2008 1:05 PM
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Hello Ivan Shukhov,
I was in NYC in July, and am not going overseas till the end of this year.
Would love to give my full name, phone and e-mail address to you, but this is a most public forum. I do not wish to clog my e-mail, answering machine with missives from Concerned the Christian Now Liberated he or she posted here:)
I asked you on your views as I am quite blur on American "values" and "way of life" from reading all the posts in On Faith and your post seem, pardon me if it offends you, fundamentally American in an old fashioned way in this increasingly complex world.
Our way of life and values does evoke in my mind an "America First", not "World First" approach. After all, American Presidents since the sixties, speaks as "Leader of the Free World". Your way of life, or everyone's right to their own way of life as they chose? Of course, some ways of life are reprehensible for others.
For a foreigner, when American "values" is spoken of, freedom, democracy, individualism, "pursuit of happiness" immediately comes to mind.
And when American "way of life" is mentioned, one immediately thinks of mobility in cars, barbeques, baseball, football etc.
All these cliches of American values and American way of life are, of course, as formed by Hollywood movies, thought in my personal experience with Americans, Americans can be as conservative or as liberal, as religious or as irreligious as any of the same overseas.
Nice to see Americans feel passionately and are as partisan in politics as any citizens of other countries practicing democracies. Election time do clarify in our minds what we believe in and stand for, and what are our expectations of leaders/elected officals.
Thanks and regards
J
Posted by: Jihadist | October 17, 2008 1:00 PM
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Jihadist
You ask so many questions and display such a robust interest in my opinions- why not give me your name and number and we can discuss this over lunch next time you are in NYC. I'm sure you will not be disappointed with my conversation.
Posted by: Ivan Shukhov | October 17, 2008 12:20 PM
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Ivan Shukhov: "Our country is at war. My heart is with those who put themselves in harm's way to protect and defend our security, our values, and our way of life. I'll be voting for the man who will inspire our military to serve with honor."
Hello,
My heart goes out to soldiers who put themselves in harm's way for King and country, for right or for wrong reasons by their leaders.
I am really most interested to hear you elaborate on:
- War against what and whom and for whom really?
- What are the "values" and "way of life" you are talking about?
From what I have been reading, there are differences on "values" and "way of life" being debated by your fellow Americans here and elsewhere.
And, I take it that when you say you will be "voting for the man who will inspire our military to serve with honor", it means that there will be more wars to fight for your "values" and "way of life" whatever it means for you? Correct my reading of your post here.
If so, it will be a long war, many wars without end with perennial enemies, as perhaps, those folks are also fighting for their "values" and "way of life" in their estimation and contention, for right or for wrong.
Thank you and regards
J
Posted by: Jihadist | October 17, 2008 12:09 PM
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"So vote for Bob Barr and stop your whining."
Our country is at war.
My heart is with those who put themselves in harm's way to protect and defend our security, our values, and our way of life.
I'll be voting for the man who will inspire our military to serve with honor.
Posted by: Ivan Shukhov | October 17, 2008 11:44 AM
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Concerned The Christian Now Liberated,
Yo! Concy pussycat!
Still popping a vein or two because I would not say whether I have read, or otherwise, books by Ayaan Hirsi Ali or Salman Rushdie after all these months? For the looks of it, yes.
Not avoiding the issues related to Presidential candidates in form and substance, are you? Oh, let us have some light infantile fun then......
And I had thought that it was McCain and Palin who are Reality Challenged - as in McCain asserting the economy is fine just days before the Wall Street meltdown; and Palin saying the oil pipeline in Alaska is God's will.
And I had thought it was McCain and Palin Obfuscating on many, many things - Palin in distancing herself from the prying media. McCain by repeating how inexperienced Obama etc.
As for the "Worst Book Ever Written aka the koran" as you said, there is Sura urging us to pick the best among us to be the leader.
Warmongering - talking about neocons and Axis of Evil?
Women-abusing - talking about people all riled and hurling abuses against Palin for abuse of power?
Hallucinations - talking about neocons belief that democracy and peace in the Middle East can be ushered in by military "liberation"?
The world is not full of White Evangelical Christians. There is over a billion atheists, over a billion Hindus, over a billion Catholicsl, over a billion Muslims, over 500 million Buddhists in the world. And I have not gone yet into Jews, Jains, Scientologists, pagans, animists...and there is everyone of every shade from Albanians to Zimbabweans.
A red coalition? A blue coalition? A white coalition? A red, white and blue coalition? Or a rainbow coalition of gender, race and religion? If this is desired or possible.
No one wants a missionary position anymore -one always on top of the other in ideas and actions.
Some good cliches:
- Pick the best among you to be leader
(If it is possible to subsume short term individual interest for long term group interest)
- One for all, and all for one.
(If it is possible to find a leader who would unite all for a common purpose and good, and all are willing to follow)
- Unity in diversity.
(If it is possible to tolerate, accomodate, accept differences and yet find common concerns and common ground)
- Unity is strenght.
(If it is possible to put personal and group vested interests for universal purpose)
....or has individualism and group interests taken primacy over society's and nation's common good as in maintaining seperation of church and state for the well-being of all?
Pick the best among you to be leader.
And that ends my warm and fuzzy, itsy bitsy, teeny weeny, very basic and free political-economic-social lecture today for you as only a daydreaming believer could give ......
RALPH NADER FOR PRESIDENT IN 2012!
PARIS HILTON FOR VICE PRESIDENT IN 2012!
Cheers
Posted by: Jihadist | October 17, 2008 11:32 AM
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Fortunately for the quasi-libertarians among us, there is always (former rightwing republican) Bob Barr from Georgia. Last I heard, St. Ron Paul went home to good old Texas, home to many a fundmentalist republican.
If you don't like social security and medicare benefits, medicaid benefits for the poor, and various and sundry 'socialist' programs, take it up with your congressman - and refuse all such assistance when your turn comes. Your poor old grandmother is probably already subsisting by way of these 'survival' benefits.
On the other hand, extraordinarily low taxes on corporations and their extremely wealthy corporate leaders, inordinately low capital gains taxation, and a myriad of other corporate 'socialist' benefits, continue to have many supporters on Wall Street and in the board rooms of corporate America - they're production is overseas because of the dirt cheap labor, period. They were never 'driven' overseas by high taxes - what a delusion.
You think foreign labor actually buys the products they make? Hey, don't take my word for any of this - Warren Buffett has long decried the low and unfair taxation rates on the corporate rich in the USA - compared to elsewhere in the world.
Profits, profits, and more profits for stockholders and very large salaries for CEO types - they still sell their products to the poor and middle class shopping junkies in the USA that the whining libertarian types are claiming to defend - but actually they're defending an 'idea' rather than real people.
Speaking of 'overseas', why is Wal-Mart the world's largest and most profitable corporation? Can you spell China? Can you comprehend crappy benefits for Wal-Mart workers? All translating into very large corporate profits, with a considerable share of those profits going to those very lucky Walton children that probably never lifted a finger to wipe their own .... noses. And who buys all this stuff? Americans - poor, middle class and maybe even a few rich shareholders trying to save a buck.
I think we need to admit that at least some form of the 'libertarian' ideal is alive and well. If we could just get rid of those pesky 'social' benefits that the rest of society depends on for survival, we could even increase the already gargantuan profits for the rich upper 5% - and exponentially trickling up to the creamy 1% at the top.
Your libertarian role model, Ayn Rand would never have approved. She believed only in the success of the 'supermen' ascending, being very Nietzschean and all. Only the smartest and most talented should excel in life, right? All other genetic 'failures and misfits' be damned.
Billionaire inheritors of a family stock portfolio didn't figure into her idealized equation of the 'great man'. Genes for success obviously meant something different to those early libertarian types. Statistically speaking, most of the rich in the good old USA came by it the old fashioned way - through inheritance.
No, the world is not fair - what the libertarians would inadvertantly like to do with their misplaced 'survival of the fittest' social & economic philosophy is hand the keys to the economic kingdom over to the folks that already hold the keys (further enabled by their congressional lackeys, of course).
BTW, the 'smoke and mirrors' idea of trickle down economics was a stupid idea with Reagan, and is still stupid today - but it does make the rich folks richer.....very popular with the GOP types.
In fact, 'trickle up' is what has actually been happening if you read statistics on increased wealth among socio-economic classes over the last 20 years.
As to the media, they were bought and sold by big money ages ago - they've been licking republican boots for the last 8 years and continue to do so with McCain as we speak. If the media actually ever told the real truth, McCain/Palin would have been disqualified ages ago for high office - what an embarrassment for the GOP.
So vote for Bob Barr and stop your whining.
Posted by: persiflage | October 17, 2008 10:59 AM
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"voters are fed up with the media feeding them their biased analysis of of events."
I agree, T B Denis.
Americans are proud of their right to free speech and love to hear and consider all sides.
Our media reminds me of the propaganda run on Soviet TV and paper Pravda. Don't you hate it when they try to tell you what to think by having everyone repeat, repeat, repeat the same three talking points.
The only differing television voice is Fox news and Obama is fretting over their freedom to speak openly-
"I am convinced that if there were no Fox News, I might be two or three points higher in the polls," Obama told me. "If I were watching Fox News, I wouldn't vote for me, right? Because the way I'm portrayed 24/7 is as a freak! I am the latte-sipping, New York Times-reading, Volvo-driving, no-gun-owning, effete, politically correct, arrogant liberal. Who wants somebody like that?"
I guess if Obama wins the election its bye-bye Fox news and hello government knows best.
And their character assasination of Joe the plumber has been so painful to hear. It makes every thinking and working person identify with Joe and has inspired other plumbers from all over America to stand up and affirm the things he has said.
Don't you love the American spirit?
Posted by: Karen | October 17, 2008 9:50 AM
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"America has *already* become a socialist nation. So tell me how Obama's policies are going to hurt anything?"
Actually Ian- you are the funny man.
Posted by: James | October 17, 2008 9:18 AM
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My feeling about this whole political arena is that voters are fed up with the media feeding them their biased analysis of of events. I think McCain will win this election in part because voters want the message to get through: that they are not manipulated by media opinions. Americans are independent thinkers. The media wants to control them.
I am a member of the minority and I would like Obama to win. Obama provides me with almost everything that I need by increasing the taxes of the rich. This is wealth distribution, punishing the rich and wealthy. But my worry is that I will become too dependent on the government that I lose my desire to be competitive. We will create a nation of mediocres. We will lose the desire to innovate. We lose the desire to get a better life, thus, making us retarded.
Never in US history have the Americans ever had an array of differences in ideology between the two parties, the Democrats and the Republicans. The main dividing wall has not yet been revealed, but as the election nears, one thing becomes resoundingly clear: should Americans choose the promise of bread (the promise of a prosperous economy) or faith in the word of God? A very popular scripture in the book of Matthew comes to mind:
But he answered and said, it is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. (Matthew 4:4).
The Christians in America are suffering like any other American, and the temptation is very great for them to elect a candidate who promises almost everything under the sun. Affordable health care, no income taxes, affordable education, and many more. We have heard all these promises before. If you are a Christian, your wisdom will tell you that that there has to be a string attached to these promises.
Barack Obama, the Democrat candidate for President promises all these things. What are the strings attached? First, almost certainly, he will appoint judges to the Supreme Court who are in favor of abortion and same-sex marriage. Secondly, because he wants to meet with terrorists without pre-condition, he will compromise with Arab nations to the effect that Christian missionaries will be forbidden to preach the Gospel to their countries, while he allows the Arab religion preached in the United States, in exchange for a halt to terrorism.
The Christians are in trouble.
Posted by: T B Denis | October 17, 2008 9:15 AM
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When Obama told Joe the Plumber:
“It’s not that I want to punish your success. I just want to make sure that everybody who is behind you, that they’ve got a chance at success too. I think that when you spread the wealth around it’s good for everybody.”
He made clear his intentions to take money from hard working people in order to “spread it around” to those he chooses and those he favors (like the million he sent to the hospital that employed his wife after they more then doubled her salary). Obama's plan is to tax the hell out of what is left of the still working American middle class.
This is the essence of the Marxist ideal of "From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs."
So.. wil you vote for an un-American candidate like Obama and become a socialist, or will you reject this unqualified person, and vote for someone who actually knows what it means to sacrifice for his country?
Posted by: Karen | October 17, 2008 9:00 AM
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Many of you have written something like this:
>I fear that if Obama becomes president, America will swiftly become a socialist nation.
You guys are so funny! It's *already* happened. Under a conservative, Bush administration. What did you think the government bailout meant?
A lot of you think that higher taxes will make businesses go elsewhere. Well, guess what? It already happened! They've gone to India, China, etc. Have you heard of outsourcing? It's happened under the low-tax, low-regulation conservative Bush administration.
So tell me how Obama's policies are going to hurt anything? And could you tell me again how it is that those "socialist" democracies like Sweden, Finland, etc. have had stable economies these last 8 years? I'd be very interested in knowing this.
Posted by: ian | October 17, 2008 8:49 AM
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Nobody reads the nonsense written by Anonymous posters.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 17, 2008 8:41 AM
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"Read up a little bit about the socialist ideology as practiced in Western Europe"
You mean the ex-socialist countries.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 17, 2008 8:22 AM
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Hungarian in USA:
You'd have to admit that in Western Europe comparatively minimum wages are higher, people work less hours, have more holidays and ordinary people can survive without working at two or three jobs to make their ends meet.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 17, 2008 8:16 AM
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Hungarian in USA:
Read up a little bit about the socialist ideology as practiced in Western Europe. It has nothing to do with Communism. West Europeans live good lives, with neither the yawning gap between the middle class and rich, nor the extent of poverty among a minority as found in the US. So don't panic about Obama as president.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 17, 2008 8:01 AM
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"When it comes to profits versus Americans being able to earn a living, I guess it's pretty clear what those companies' priorities are, isn't it? So much for patriotic sacrifice."
Mike- That's so stale. We've already been told how patriotic it is to pay higher taxes. But there is no incentive to work harder. There is no incentive to stay in America when you can prosper elsewhere.
"We live like sultans in this country compared to the majority of the world."
Don't worry Mike. After a few years under Comrade Barack- there will be no jobs (even for those who are looking to work) and you will obtain equality with the third world you so greatly admire.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 17, 2008 7:50 AM
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JFR WROTE: "Very few manufacturing companies that left American soil because of government intervention, high wages and high taxes are going to be persuaded to return if their taxes are even higher and their workers must be paid higher wages."
When it comes to profits versus Americans being able to earn a living, I guess it's pretty clear what those companies' priorities are, isn't it? So much for patriotic sacrifice.
Cherry-picking the Communist Manifesto (in mangled fashion) and the Bible (good for any ideological position under the sun if you look hard enough) for your argument? We'll become a "socialist" nation? What a cheap, scattershot buzzword "socialism" has become. I doubt you could even define it in today's world. I know I couldn't. China? France? Canada?
Yes, here we go again with Reagan's old stereotype of the "welfare queens." The vast, vast, VAST majority of citizens in this country under any political party are willing to and do work for a living. There are ALWAYS going to be a very few freeloaders (not counting freeloading corporations, of course). That's just the nature of the human population. Quit obsessing on the guy you think isn't pulling his weight and mind your own side of the fence. We've all got more than enough to work on there.
We live like sultans in this country compared to the majority of the world. Oh boo hoo, if that one dude loafs and lives on welfare, somehow that will keep me from having my big flatscreen T.V. and the giant pick-up truck I use to drive to the grocery store and back. Get some gratitude and work on your own life, not what the next person is or isn't doing.
Posted by: Mike D. | October 17, 2008 7:35 AM
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Who can deny that Obama is a socialist? It is well known and well documented.
NOTE-
Obama has:
* called for a national citizen military force
* sent government agents to intimidate American citizens who have said they don’t agree with him and will not vote for him
* tried to use the offices of state Attorneys General to silence any opposition or dissent;
* offered questionable “support” for the Second Amendment “right to bear arms” – as long as it isn’t in self-defense;
* proposed his version of “from each according to his ability, to each according to his need;” and stated his intention to "spread the wealth" and recut the "pie"
* trained, funded and utilized organizations like ACORN that are notorious for voter registration fraud;
* consorted with and funded terrorists and anti-American radicals;
* attended a church led by a racist, black supremacist, anti-American bigot;
* been mentored by Frank Marshall Davis, who was apparently not only a Communist and a bigot, but also a known pervert
If he is elected it will be because the majority of American Voters want socialism or at least don't object to it. The USA is a decadent nation where the majority accept decadence and perversion and don't exercise the moral conviction to take a stand against the things that will ultimately lead to destruction.
Posted by: Paul | October 17, 2008 7:26 AM
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After listening to all of the debates, I cannot deny that Barack Obama is a much better orator than John McCain. After every session there are those who wonder "John, why didn't you say this or that?" I'm sure Mr. McCain thinks the same thing.
But he is running on his record, not his ability to convince people from the stump. On the other hand, Obama is running on convincing dreams rather than a lengthy record of what he has accomplished.
It is more than coincidence that the stock market plunged to a disaster conveniently just before President Bush left office so that Obama and the Democratic Party could look like the great solutions. Isn't it strange that so few blame the last two years of woe on the ruling Democratic Congress?
Obama speaks of bringing factories and auto plants back to America, and yet assures that he is going to soak them with even heavier taxes.
Very few manufacturing companies that left American soil because of government intervention, high wages and high taxes are going to be persuaded to return if their taxes are even higher and their workers must be paid higher wages.
I fear that if Obama becomes president, America will swiftly become a socialist nation. Instead of enjoying the fruits of their labor, the profits of those who work hard to get ahead will be taken and shared among those who are waiting for a handout, some deserving, some loafers. This idea is taken from the Communist Manifesto,which states their intent is to take from the haves and give to the have-nots. Sound familiar? II Thessalonians 3:10 says that if one is not willing to work, he doesn't deserve to eat. I agree.
America is already the most generous nation on Earth. Don't mess with it. Please get out and vote your conscience this year.
Posted by: JFR | October 17, 2008 7:10 AM
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ANONYMOUS WROTE: "This letter is written for those who want to vote for Obama for president. If you believe that socialism is best for this country's future, you will be voting for the right ticket."
Comparing the result of a Democratic presidency to Soviet-enforced Communism in Hungary is as asinine as comparing a Republican presidency to the Nazis. You, sir, speak the rhetoric of an extremist. Fortunately after all the dust settles from our elections, we don't go for that sort of thing in America.
You're a citizen in legal terms. You need to become an American in spirit.
Posted by: Mike D. | October 17, 2008 7:09 AM
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They avoided religious "issues" in the debate? Sounds like the best presidential debate in years, can I get an "Amen"?
Posted by: Mike D. | October 17, 2008 7:01 AM
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This letter is written for those who want to vote for Obama for president. If you believe that socialism is best for this country's future, you will be voting for the right ticket.
Obama is largely financed by the extreme left-wing MoveOn.org. Every speech he makes, you can tell where he and his advisers want to take this country.
Why am I against socialism? I escaped from the formerly socialist/communist country of Hungary. I lived and worked under communism and witnessed how the socialist government treated the population.
Soon after I entered the U.S.A. and learned English, I found, inch by inch, liberals were leading this country toward socialism. I pray that Americans recognize many politicians are taking this country so far to the left we may become more like Cuba, China or old Russia.
I still love this country, even when some of our leaders make bad decisions. But America has faced grave problems before and come out of it because millions of concerned citizens voted for a democratic America and not for a socialist one. I just feel that Obama would lead this country to a third-rate status.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 17, 2008 6:57 AM
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Why looking up to Senator Obama as a religious "savior" is unwarranted, no matter how good a politician he may be and how good his policies.
http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/browsearchive.php?selection=archive/George_Robert
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/us_elections_2008/7673042.stm
Posted by: Anonymous | October 17, 2008 5:46 AM
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MCCain looked like a grumpy old man trying to pick up fight for no reason. He did not address the questions posed by the moderator but kept on crticizing Obama in a baseless way particularly Obama's conection with Ayers. Obama was elelmentary school kid when ayers was idenfied as an activist who latter mend his ways and became a professor at a big ten school. HIs strategists might be thinking if yo keep on lying to the public about this it may stick with the public but it is not going to this time. We have far more issues like economy to worry about than this silly thing. McCain is such a stupid and old and angry man too dangerous to be president of our country.
Posted by: madhukbee | October 17, 2008 4:55 AM
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Cindy, Cindy, Cindy,
You definitely need some "Schillebeeckxing".
Father Edward Schillebeeckx is the famous contemporary theologian and from his book, Church: The Human Story of God, Crossroad, 1993, p.91 (softcover):
"Christians must give up a perverse, unhealthy and inhuman doctrine of predestination without in so doing making God the great scapegoat of history" .
"Nothing is determined in advance: in
nature there is chance and determinism; in the world of human activity there is possibility of free choices.
Therefore the historical future is not known even to God; otherwise we and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings. For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women."
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | October 17, 2008 4:44 AM
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Anonymous:
What a shame, I always liked waking up to the freedom of caressing my spouse in the middle of the night, oh it taste and feels so good..........
Imagine, a union that enables that freedom, without guilt, just pure unadulterated pleasure in the purest sense through a marriage bond between a husband and a wife.
October 17, 2008 4:12 AM
________________________________________
And the purpose of this post???????????????
Posted by: Anonymous | October 17, 2008 4:29 AM
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I'm wondering though if endorsing a presidential candidate by a newspaper is in the same category as a religious organization publicly endorsing a candidate. Aren't newspapers expected to give us all a balanced view on all political candidates? If it endorses a particular candidate, isn't there a danger that the newspaper would be compromised in publishing any criticism during the term of that candidate? And the public deserve to be informed about the good and bad sides of any politician in power?
Posted by: Anonymous | October 17, 2008 4:27 AM
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What a shame, I always liked waking up to the freedom of caressing my spouse in the middle of the night, oh it taste and feels so good..........
Imagine, a union that enables that freedom, without guilt, just pure unadulterated pleasure in the purest sense through a marriage bond between a husband and a wife.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 17, 2008 4:12 AM
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If someone would really do the match on potential taxes for Joe the Plumber, it would be obvious that the whole tax argument by McCain is void.
This is just lots of sands in our eyes, but distracts from the real issues.
Posted by: Melanie | October 17, 2008 4:02 AM
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Although I like the old John McCain, he definitely lost me with his unresponsible VP pick. I want someone a lot smarter than the average hockey mom to be one of the leaders of the free world. With Palin as potential VP, representing the US in world forums, we definitely are not going to gain back some of the respect we lost the last 7 years. Her cute winks, folksy speak, or just changing the subject are not going to win any arguments with top notch world politicians.
And because of McCain's age and health, this is the deciding factor for me to vote for Obama.
Posted by: Melanie | October 17, 2008 4:00 AM
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between the jewish carpenter and joe the pluber,americanism is fadeing .
Posted by: the syndicate | October 17, 2008 3:44 AM
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Barack Obama for President
Editorial
The Washington Post
Friday, October 17, 2008
________________________________________
Finally, finally, a piece of journalism worthy of The Washington Post! A fair analysis that had been sorely of lacking in most of the articles published on this election campaign. The situation had been so bad because of its partisan nature, it made me fiercely critical of all the articles on Senator Obama, although my values and leanings are definitely liberal, except on abortion. I can only find moral justification for two percent of abortions, not the ninety percent done for convenience of the mother.
I got put off also by the attempt to paint Senator Obama as a religious savior. I admire Senator Obama and Senator McCain for different reasons, but my Christian values (except on abortion) makes me feel more in tune with Senator Obama's policies. And I take the first Two Commandments too seriously to give any politician the place of god or make him/her an idol to worship.
So thank you Washington Post for the wonderful editorial. My great respect for The Washington Post as a newspaper has returned, after it had been seriously eroded with all the extreme partisan politicking.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 17, 2008 3:41 AM
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This nation Needs God more than ever. A nation can not survive with out his help. This nation's leadership should seek Jesus for wisdom and guidence. Our leadership is trying to solve a crisis on their own and it is not working. The Lord has sent our nation warning after warning. 9-11, The Weather, The Fires, The economy, etc. If our nation does not repent for forsaking God and turn from it's wicked way's I'm concern of what is next. How can He heal our Land if we as a nation do not repent before Him? Our forefathers founded this nation on biblical values and God. I challenge our leadership to seek the face of God in prayer and fasting see what he can do.
Posted by: Cindy Murphy | October 17, 2008 3:34 AM
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Meluna:
I hope that everyone that is pro-life is also pro Universal Health Care. What is the point of bringing a baby into this world, and then deny it the right to appropriate health care because it's mother or father is poor and can't afford medical insurance. How many Americans go without health-care and die or suffer in agony because they just can't afford it?
It would be ironic wouldn't it, that the same babies you fight to keep in this world, die because you won't pay higher taxes for their medical care.
October 17, 2008 1:52 AM
__________________________________________
It is a good idea to find out why you indulge in wilful ignorance on this topic.
Abortion
Universal health care
War
Capital punishment
are all SEPARATE issues.
So would you mind discussing one issue at a time. If not we could throw the present economic meltdown in the pot as well and try to find out how the Wall Street is influencing the rate of abortion.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 17, 2008 2:22 AM
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Concerned:
Anonymous:
Thank you for this discussion. You and I eventually come to a fork in the road when it comes to our beliefs, but I am pleased to partner with you when it comes to educating our youth.
I hope you will also consider birth control in that education. I really do think it will further the cause of eliminating unwanted pregnancy.
I hope similar discussions can unite people of all beliefs to eradicate this problem.
Thanks again for the civil discourse. :)
October 16, 2008 9:18 PM
_______________________________________________
I thought COMPREHENSIVE included birth control. In fact I mentioned it specifically. So I'm not concerned, merely confused as to why you would arrive at the wrong conclusion. Btw, there is need for using birth control methods even in a marriage, to limit the number of children one would have. The simplest and safest is sterilization after one has had as many children as one wants (which is not likely to be more than two or three). It does not affect virility in either men or women. Vasectomy is by far the simplest. Natural family planning methods are not so reliable because the time of ovulation can vary very much because it is dependent on many factors, including emotional.
Thanks to you also for the civil discourse. If the pro-abortion group could understand that the anti-abortion groups are not against sexual pleasure for men and women; they are against taking the life of an innocent, defenseless unborn child. Sexual morality advocated by religions is another topic altogether and can be argued from the point of view of personal and social consequences as well, but that is not what the fight against abortion-for-convenience is about.
May all people of goodwill, concerned about protecting innocent life, join in the conversation, to work out the best possible solution for all concerned!
Posted by: Anonymous | October 17, 2008 2:17 AM
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I hope that everyone that is pro-life is also pro Universal Health Care. What is the point of bringing a baby into this world, and then deny it the right to appropriate health care because it's mother or father is poor and can't afford medical insurance. How many Americans go without health-care and die or suffer in agony because they just can't afford it?
It would be ironic wouldn't it, that the same babies you fight to keep in this world, die because you won't pay higher taxes for their medical care.
Posted by: Meluna | October 17, 2008 1:52 AM
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Please Elliot Chase- don't rewrite history!
Fellow Countrymen:
At this second appearing to take the oath of the Presidential office there is less occasion for an extended address than there was at the first. Then a statement somewhat in detail of a course to be pursued seemed fitting and proper. Now, at the expiration of four years, during which public declarations have been constantly called forth on every point and phase of the great contest which still absorbs the attention and engrosses the energies of the nation, little that is new could be presented. The progress of our arms, upon which all else chiefly depends, is as well known to the public as to myself, and it is, I trust, reasonably satisfactory and encouraging to all. With high hope for the future, no prediction in regard to it is ventured.
On the occasion corresponding to this four years ago all thoughts were anxiously directed to an impending civil war. All dreaded it, all sought to avert it. While the inaugural address was being delivered from this place, devoted altogether to saving the Union without war, insurgent agents were in the city seeking to destroy it without war—seeking to dissolve the Union and divide effects by negotiation. Both parties deprecated war, but one of them would make war rather than let the nation survive, and the other would accept war rather than let it perish. And the war came.
One-eighth of the whole population were colored slaves, not distributed generally over the Union, but localized in the southern part of it. These slaves constituted a peculiar and powerful interest. All knew that this interest was somehow the cause of the war. To strengthen, perpetuate, and extend this interest was the object for which the insurgents would rend the Union even by war, while the Government claimed no right to do more than to restrict the territorial enlargement of it. Neither party expected for the war the magnitude or the duration which it has already attained. Neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might cease with or even before the conflict itself should cease. Each looked for an easier triumph, and a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible and pray to the same God, and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces, but let us judge not, that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered. That of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes. 'Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh.' If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said 'the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether'.
With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation's wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow, and his orphan – to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace, among ourselves, and with all nations."
Posted by: Anonymous | October 17, 2008 1:27 AM
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Jacques;
The candidates indeed left religion where it ought to be in a Presidential debate, at the door.
This is not a Theocracy. The Founding Fathers did the same thing as these two candidates--played along with the fearful and faithful even as they went about the business of the "Enlightenment". Right reason is called for when the serious business of humanity's future is being addressed. There is plenty of time for religious tonics, prayers, contrition, and ritual when the dealing is done.
On the negative side, plunder hungry "Christian" knights first had to lay siege to Jerusalem, take the city, and then in the name of almighty God put everyone to the sword. Then I am sure the prayed offering thanks to God and asked for his forgiveness.
In my estimation, America's duration as the greatest nation on earth will be determined by how long it can keep the "faithful" at bay. Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and Abraham Lincoln realized it. Like McCain and Obama, they left religion at the door when they need to. Both, at least in their subconscious, have to agree with one Napoleon Bonaparte "that religion is what keeps the poor from killing the rich."
Posted by: Elliot Chase | October 17, 2008 1:12 AM
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Oh cmon' Jacques, you think McCain should have brought up Ayers et al sooner? No way, he brought it up too soon as it is. He gave the media time to figure out that the Ayers link was ridiculous. He gave Obama the opportunity to make him look ridiculous on national TV for pursing this link.
Bringing out his guns 3 weeks before the election gave the NYTimes editors time to dig up footage of McCain praising Acorn in 2006 (remember Obama's link to them was in 1995). Should have left it for the last minute so people didn't have time to realize it was bunk.
Don't know how this blog got onto birth control. Fifteen years ago a friend told me the antiabortion crowd was really after birth control. At the time I thought she was nuts. I no longer think so.
You have to remember that historically girls got their menses at 16 or 17 and then were married off shortly thereafter. We expected them to remain chaste for maybe a year or two after sexual maturity. But puberty has come 4 months earlier every decade for at least the last century. Today girls routinely get their periods as early as 10 or 11 (sometimes even earlier), and we expect them to stay chaste for over a decade while they go to college. We have to face that its not going to work and talk to both genders early and often.
But its about much more than abstinence and birth control. Its about having a future. I didn't have sex with my very serious high school boyfriend because we were both afraid of pregnancy - there was only one form of birth control that was 100% effective, and even a 1 or 2% risk of pregnancy was too high for us. I saw a future for myself that was limitless, and I wasn't about to screw it up, pardon the pun. Today's kids so often seem to live in the present, drifting from day to day. Having goals is better birth controls than morality lectures, pills, or abstinence education.
Posted by: patriot | October 17, 2008 1:00 AM
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Cute, "Palin" being the tetragrammaton, the unspoken name. For our entertainment, the name "Palin" is spelled with four letters in Hebrew: peh, lamed, yud, and nun (from right to left) so it fulfills the requirement for a tetragrammaton.
Posted by: Harry Fisher | October 17, 2008 12:43 AM
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Unfortunately for McCain, Joe the Plumber is likely to embarrass him. For one, he's not a licensed plumber only a wannabee owner of a plumbing business, the income from which he projects COULD be in excess of $250,000 and therefore liable to a 4% tax increase under Obama's plan. However, he currently makes much less. His taxes will drop under Obama's plan. Plus, he's less a victim thsn a deadbeat who had a lien put on him for failing to pay state income tax. Hi name isn't even Joe. It's sam.
Posted by: jhbyer | October 17, 2008 12:17 AM
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For the record:
From the Philadelphia Inquirer, October 15, 2008-
"The report concluded that Palin was within her legal rights to fire Monegan, who served at the pleasure of the governor. But the special counsel also found that Palin violated the Alaska Executive Branch Ethics Act by bringing pressure against various subordinate state employees in a campaign to fire Wooten.
"Governor Palin knowingly permitted a situation to continue where impermissible pressure was placed on several subordinates in order to advance a personal agenda," concluded investigator Steve Branchflower.
There's ample evidence that Wooten is a contemptible human being. There are claims that he threatened to kill Palin's father, drove his patrol car after drinking, and Tasered his stepson. He divorced Palin's sister Molly in 2006, but custody and other issues are unresolved."
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | October 17, 2008 12:02 AM
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And let is put "Joe the Plumber" into the archives or political irrelevance. He is not representing anyone other than himself, as no one has elected him to either the House or the Senate. And tell me, is he a tax attorney? As I hear it, he does not pay taxes. If so, how can he understand tax structure?
Posted by: Hakafos44 | October 16, 2008 11:47 PM
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The final debate was our last chance to determine which candidate is suited to the highest office in the land. There was no need to refer to God, He has proven Himself more than qualified for His office.
Sarah Palin has not endeared herself to Mr. Obama. It is always advised to use silence if positive words are not in the forefront of your mind and on the tip of your tongue.
Posted by: hakafos44 | October 16, 2008 11:44 PM
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Please note that the Reality Challenged and Obfuscating Jihadist continues to avoid addressing the Worst Book Ever Written aka the koran. Its many faults are pointed out in the books of Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Sir Salman Rushdie. The Jihadist cannot read said books for fear of Islamic terror squads which says it all for the current and past state of Islam i.e. a warmongering, women-abusing, terror religion based on the hallucinations of one illiterate and long dead Arab by the name of Mahound aka Mohammed.
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | October 16, 2008 11:42 PM
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I am most dreadfully disillusioned about Joe the Plumber and fear that recent revelations will result in a new wave of anti-Plumberism. Thank God,
Rosie the Riveter still walks among us. I look forward to news of Myrtle the Merrymaker, Victor the Violinist and Pete from Pasadena.
Posted by: Farnaz | October 16, 2008 11:08 PM
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(Sidebar: Aha. Funny it should occur to me here, but for anyone who's been challenging over the past couple years what Pagan morals are, or if we even have them, ...here we go. You take Vegas....
And it's just like the opposite of that.
Only more fun.)
Posted by: Paganplace | October 16, 2008 11:00 PM
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"The Unmentionable: Sarah Palin--Not once last night did Barack Obama pronounce the name of Alaska's governor. Although asked direct questions about her by Bob Schieffer, he referred to her simply as John McCain's "running mate.""
Since her nomination is an extremely crude gesture toward both the office she's running for, and the United States of America as a whole, I wouldn't mention her, either, if I had any intention of governing this country as if it weren't who can stay up latest on On Faith.
Better than saying 'That One.'
It's still not too late to forget Palin was ever an issue. Just, you know. Gotta move on. As Dubya said, 'Wall Street Got Drunk' and American democracy bought its come-ons.
This can stay in Vegas, as long as we can get to work, that's what I say.
Posted by: Paganplace | October 16, 2008 10:54 PM
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rfhirsch:
As many have said on this board, church and state are seperate, and should remain so.
This piece disregards that amendment.
Posted by: Concerned | October 16, 2008 10:48 PM
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This opinion piece is about subjects that have nothing to do with religion. It is an attack piece on John McCain. The author should have discussed, for example, the religious bigotry displayed by the Democrats and their allies against Gov. Palin. The hatred directed at her for her family's former membership in a Pentacostal Church surely is an appropriate subject for a page devoted to Faith.
The important work done in developing nations by these churches, especially in Africa, to make people self-sufficient by education could then have been discussed. Instead the author rambles on and on about everything except faith. Perhaps the Post should find someone to write in this space who is interested in religion?
Posted by: rfhirsch | October 16, 2008 10:21 PM
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What are OBAMA's accomplishments?
Obama has already:
* called for a national citizen military force;
* sent government agents to intimidate American citizens who have said they don’t agree with him and will not vote for him;
* tried to use the offices of state Attorneys General to silence any opposition or dissent;
* offered questionable “support” for the Second Amendment “right to bear arms” – as long as it isn’t in self-defense;
* proposed his version of “from each according to his ability, to each according to his need;” (plumbers – plumbers, for pity’s sake, should pay more taxes???)
* trained, funded and utilized organizations like ACORN that are notorious for voter registration fraud;
* consorted with and funded terrorists and anti-American radicals;
* attended a church led by a racist, black supremacist, anti-American bigot;
* been mentored by Frank Marshall Davis, who was apparently not only a Communist and a bigot, but also a pervert, and who warned Obama not to go off to college or fall for “equal opportunity and the American way and all that s***.”
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 10:15 PM
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"Obama's "eloquence"-McCain virtually plagiarized Hillary Clinton's oft-heard refrain that Obama sure sounds great, but lacks any substance."
Many of us have been saying that all along...all talk, no action.
Posted by: Chuckie | October 16, 2008 10:08 PM
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"Joe the Plumber" is the perfect poster-child for the McCain campaign-he is a monkey wrench with lipsick, a plumbing fraud. The guy is no more closer to being a plumber than Palin is. And he is certainly not close to bringing home more than $250,000 a year. He is already in a rears of his taxes from last year. Another symbol of a campaign without a purpose, "Joe Sixpack" without the sixpack. Maybe Mccain will ditch Palin and grab "Joe the Plumber" for number two on the ticket-his "November Surprise". Maybe he can adopt Joe and then McCain can regail him with stories about fighting earmarks while both of them try to fix the kitchen drain.
Posted by: Judge Roy Bean | October 16, 2008 10:01 PM
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Anonymous:
Ok, I'm not sure if this is the same "anaonymous" But what type of birth control are you talking about with a 14% risk?
Condoms are 98% effective when used correctly (check the CDC website).
Birth control pills are 99% effective, but offer no STD protection.
NOw, young woman can increase protection by using the contraceptive sponge or other methods (although they don't reduce the risk of disease)as a back-up to condom use.
So where does your 14% come from? Let's talk about what methods you mean...
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 9:25 PM
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Anonymous:
Thank you for this discussion. You and I eventually come to a fork in the road when it comes to our beliefs, but I am pleased to partner with you when it comes to educating our youth.
I hope you will also consider birth control in that education. I really do think it will further the cause of eliminating unwanted pregnancy.
I hope similar discussions can unite people of all beliefs to eradicate this problem.
Thanks again for the civil discourse. :)
Posted by: Concerned | October 16, 2008 9:18 PM
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Why would you want mccain to win? He believes people like you are "agents of intolerance".
He has no religious belief system. He wants to get elected, so pretends to the status of
" believer".
Obama is a true believer, not a fake one.
I wonder aloud why the 'believer' community opposes someone who has lived the life they preach, and supports Mccain, a Johhnie come lately, and highly suspect as a ' true believer"?
Could it have anything to do with Obama's race, hmmm??
Posted by: thopaine | October 16, 2008 9:11 PM
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Not once last night did Barack Obama pronounce the name of Alaska's governor. Although asked direct questions about her by Bob Schieffer, he referred to her simply as John McCain's "running mate.
---------------
No mystery at all -- he's just smart. There is no percentage at all for Obama in attacking Palin. Her public favorability ratings are mediocre at best. She's the butt of jokes, and she's getting more bad press now. If he goes after her in a debate, he looks ungentlemanly and he gains little.
Posted by: david scott | October 16, 2008 9:11 PM
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CONCERNED:
Maybe you are aware that even the best contraception is not perfect. Failure rate is put at at least 14%.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 9:10 PM
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Kimberly,
You have no obligation to respond to me- Agreed! Yet you continue to do so. YOu asked for information regarding Mr. Obama's experience. I provided it. You won't even consider it. That's not my problem.
I haven't called you any names, so....what are you talking about?
I would say, though, that if you're a huge McCain supporter you must have at least one or two reasons why...perhaps if you shared them with us you'd bolster your credibility.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 9:09 PM
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McCains' negative attacks were ultimately self-defeating. He leaves the campaign on a sour note.
Posted by: david wayne osedach | October 16, 2008 9:05 PM
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Concerned:
Religious groups can continue to teach moral values. But keeping people in ignorance about reality should not be considered a virtue.
Abstinence outside a committed relationship is a good way to protect women from all sorts of problems and the social consequences of it. But those who fail to abide by what is best, should at least not be punished with more suffering or be forced into a situation where she would consider taking the life of her innocent unborn child.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 9:04 PM
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Anonymous:
You make an interesting point about the media and hippie (my interpretation) parents. I would argue that since Elvis' pelvic thrust, we have turned to the media looking for somewhere to place the blame for each successive generation of degenerates. But maybe prevention begins at home?
I think religion plays a role, and I think that the debate about where kids should learn about sex-ed plays a role as well.
But ultimately, I think that people on all sides of the abortion issue would agree that prevention is the key. So, you and I might differ on Roe v. Wade, but let's agree to reduce unwanted pregnancy and to do that with whatever means possible.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 9:02 PM
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Concerned:
You are right about empowering women to say NO to the wrong man and the wrong time. A man who wants sex at the wrong time in her life for the wrong reasons deserves to be told to get lost. And she should protect her own body as something precious and have the inner strength and conviction to say NO to any sexual activity that would hurt her and eventually lead to taking an innocent life through an abortion.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 8:56 PM
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um Concerned- you have intruded on the tailend of my interchange with another poster without having read all my posts on this thread.
I have no obligation to respond to your demands.
On a positive note- you fit in with the other name-calling, TV watching kindergarteners posting here.
boring...
zzzzzzz
Posted by: KIMBERLY | October 16, 2008 8:54 PM
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Jihadist:
Bonsoir:
"McCain stated at the Saddleback Forum, that Americans love to imitate the French? Ah, one must love Jerry Lewis and escargots too, to emulate the French."
McCain has said a few noteworthy things about the French (je suppose qu'il a voulu dire des catholiques de facto). Of course, you are quite right about French intellectuals and Jerry Lewis, who ranks as a film auteur among them, much to his everlasting amusement.
Re Anon's "we love the the jews," I don't thing American non-Jews can be said to "love the Jews" any more than American Jews can be said to love the American non-Jews.
Posted by: Farnaz | October 16, 2008 8:53 PM
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Anonymous:
It sounds like we are agreed.
I am very pro-sex-education and I think it's important that young men get a good education as well.
I will say that there is a birth-control issue that tends to gum up the works. Young men and women who belong to faiths forbidding birth control, when they decide to discard all advice and engage in sex, have a difficult choice: commit one sin or two?
I know it's a hot-button issue, but I think young adults need to know that if they decide to have sex, they should use protection.
Abstinance-only just isn't working.
Posted by: Concerned | October 16, 2008 8:52 PM
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Concerned:
Young girls and young men handle their sex instinct badly because they are poorly informed and bad role models are glorified in the media. They have parents who belong to the era of sexual revolution, (read: sex yeah, but responsibility for the consequences, NO!) who are unable to guide them properly. So there is a need for sex education that comes from a neutral, well informed source.
The young should be armed with as much knowledge as possible. They will make their own decision. Some of them may still choose to be irresponsible, but at least they will be fully aware of what they are doing.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 8:50 PM
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Concerned:
When I wrote COMPREHENSIVE SEX EDUCATION, I really meant COMPREHENSIVE.
The issue should be tackled from every possible front. And that includes teaching young men their responsibility in handling their sex instinct, which has been neglected for far too long.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 8:46 PM
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Anonymous:
I hear what you are saying, but my point is that we need to unite everybody to face this issue at a point before pregnancy occurs. Empowerment includes the courage to say no to sex!
And because pregnancy is only a woman's cross to bear, does it not make sense to educate her and teach her how to defend herself against the pressures of her male counterparts? Does it not ring true that a woman should know how her body works and the risks of disease and pregnancy?
A young woman who has access to sex-education and peer-support is better equipt to be strong in her convictions. A young couple with access to birth control is better able to avoid unwanted pregnancy. A society that empowers it's citizens to make the right choices will help minimize the wrong ones.
What do you think?
Posted by: Concerned | October 16, 2008 8:40 PM
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Concerned:
Abortion as a right seems to have become synonymous with empowerment of women. A pathetic kind of empowerment for the gender of the human species that has been granted the biological capacity to bring forth new life in her womb.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 8:33 PM
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Concerned:
The surprise is it is exactly the empowered women who are demanding abortion as their right!
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 8:31 PM
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Sonia Kermaz:
Anonymous...
I'm comparing the reproductive systems and reproductive choices of fleas and humans.
In an overpopulated planet, the choice isn't to murder or not to murder humans, the choice is how, when and why. I prefer family planning, including abortion, to war, starvation, and disease. It's less messy and cruel.
October 16, 2008 8:39 AM
____________________________________________
An afterthought about the "less messy" way to get rid of the "inconvenient." The Hitler regime had a really "clean" system, so clean that only those who were directly involved in the highly technical and well organized mass murder knew about it, apart from those who gave the orders that it be carried out. That is how dictatorships work. Media and information is strictly controlled and used only for government propaganda. The ordinary citizens have no idea of what is going on.
As to killing unborn children in the womb, just because nobody gets to see the child fighting for its life in a losing battle does not feel the child is not suffering.
In the Nazi regime, nobody could watch the suffering of the victims in the gas chamber either and there was no body to bury.
So what is your point?
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 8:29 PM
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Since Kimberly won't respond directly to the evidence I've provided demonstrating Mr. Obama's experience (not even to outline any achievements of her assumed choice for POTUS), let me just say that this tradition of toeing the republican party line serves no one.
There is none so blind as (s)he who will not see.
Posted by: Concerned | October 16, 2008 8:26 PM
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Concerned:
Anonymous:
That wasn't my question. Are you interested in reducing abortion? The answer is in sex education, empowerment of women, and the provision of birth control to any one who wants to engage in sexual activity.
Nuff said.
October 16, 2008 8:02 PM
________________________________________________
If you had been following my posts you'd have noticed that not only did I recommend COMPREHENSIVE SEX EDUCATION which includs lay man's basic knowledge of human embryology (beginning with age appropriate sex education in kindergarten for early detection of sexual abuse in children, most of which happens in families and among people well known to the children and trusted by the children and parents of the child), but also availability of contraceptives. I also mentioned the limitations of abstinence only education, although it should be part of it for the very young, considering most abortions are in the 14-24 age group. I went so far as to support the TWO percent abortions for reasons like rape, incest, illness in mother and fetal deformities. Not that it does not constitute taking an innocent life, but because of the justifiable gravity of the consequence for the mother. And abortions in cases of rape and incest which forms exactly .6% (!) can be done at the earliest possible time - as early as preventing implantation of the zygote (fertilized egg).
It must be emphasized that those opposed to abortion are fighting the "abortion for convenience" called reproductive "right." It constitutes 98% of all abortions and it is usually resorted to by women who can afford the children. That is one reason why social benefits alone will not reduce the number of abortions in that group. First world countries with lax laws and good social support system can affirm that.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 8:21 PM
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TIME FOR A RADICAL CHANGE IN THE ELECTORAL PROCESS
Taxpayers deserve independent representation with teeth. NOT suppliant gofers taking orders from special interests.
http://pacificgatepost.blogspot.com/2008/10/electoral-process-urgent-change-is.html
Will either candidate bring this up? Not likely.
Posted by: PacificGatePost | October 16, 2008 8:10 PM
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Kimberly,
So...you don't have a response then?
Posted by: Concerned | October 16, 2008 8:07 PM
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Oh Concerned-
Your offerings are paperthin. Obama is a well-funded neophyte out of the Chicago political machine..
snore.
Do you really think he will tax his way to success? I hope he wins just so we can watch him fail..
America's power is in her people's intelligence and strength. We have an incredible ability to overcome hardship. Its always been that way.
Posted by: KIMBERLY | October 16, 2008 8:06 PM
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News you can use from Alaskans:
Letters: Troopergate -- How can Palin claim vindication?
(10/14/08 23:42:59)
It's time to recall the governor
After having to listen to Sarah lie about the findings of the Troopergate investigation all weekend I thought my head would explode. I read the report and Finding Number One states, "Governor Sarah Palin abused her power by violating Alaska Statue 39.52.110(a) of the Alaska Executive Branch Ethics Act."
In the five-minute interview she granted three Alaska reporters over the weekend, she spoke about how glad she was that she was cleared of "any hint of unethical activity." Does she really expect us to believe this blatant lie?
Let's see what the Bible says about lying. See Proverbs 6:12-13: What are worthless and wicked people like? They are constant liars, signaling their deceit with a wink of the eye, a nudge of the foot, or the wiggle of fingers.
These verses describe to a tee the behavior that Sarah Palin has exhibited on the campaign trail. Let's just start a recall petition and remove her from the governor's mansion when she returns to us in well-deserved defeat.
Oh that's right, she isn't in the governor's mansion -- she gets per diem to stay at home in Wasilla. Recall, recall, recall!
-- Mary Ann Chaney Anchorage
Claiming vindication is simply outrageous
I am a life-long Republican who supported McCain over Bush eight years ago.
When I first heard about Troopergate, I understood that it was a tempest-in-a-teacup compared to world issues such as the economy and national security. I understood that it might, at the very worst, result in a slap on the wrist for Gov. Palin if the allegations were found to be true.
I was not prepared for her response to the legislature's investigative report.
When Bill Clinton said "I did not have sexual relations with that woman," we were outraged. We pointed out that it was not about sex, it was about honesty.
When Gov. Palin claimed the Branchflower report "vindicated" her and that she had been "cleared of any legal wrongdoing ... any hint of any kind of unethical activity," I was outraged. That is not spin. That is nothing less than an outright, bold-faced lie.
Troopergate was not about whether trooper Wooten is a bad employee or whether he was adequately punished. It is about whether our governor, who wants to be our vice president, will tell us the truth. To me, character and honesty are more important than party loyalty.
-- Buster B. Griggs, Jr.
Anchorage
Palin violated state ethics law
The governor was not vindicated by the legislative report. She did violate state ethics law. And, she allowed her husband to use her position as governor in the family's attempt to have their former in-law fired.
She is clearly within her authority to terminate any commissioner. But to smear Walt Monegan shows meanness unbecoming the governor of the great state of Alaska.
I don't know what the Legislature will do now, but at a minimum:
1. Gov. Palin needs to deny her husband any involvement in state business, and inappropriate access of her office.
2. Gov. Palin needs ethics training to assure that she understands that her personal interest must not interfere with official business of the office she holds.
3. The governor owes Walt Monegan a public apology
4. The governor needs to acknowledge that she did violate the law.
Should these recommendations be implemented, the healing process may begin, and perhaps we can get back to more serious matters.
-- Julianne Baltar
Dillingham
Earth to Sarah, Earth to Sarah
Sunday, Oct. 12, headline: "Palin says report vindicates her."
In what universe is Sarah living?
-- Edith Barrowclough
Anchorage
Palin needs competent advisers
Our governor (in absentia) says that she is pleased to have been vindicated of any wrong doing in the Troopergate investigation and that there is not a "hint of any kind of unethical activity." The governor is currently and has been out of state and must be relying on her advisers for updates regarding the results of the investigation. It is clear that the governor needs to fire those advisers and get some new ones who can keep her in closer touch with reality. This assessment assumes a lack of competence on the part of the governor's advisors. I guess the other alternative is that our governor is delusional.
-- Bob Rodrigues
Anchorage
Branchflower deserves praise
Do you not think that Stephen Branchflower deserves some printed words of honor from your newspaper for rendering a courageous decision in the light of such a politically charged atmosphere? I do. Do you have the courage to do so in this staunchly Republican state?
-- Kenneth Holmes
Eagle River
Palin's attorney got it all wrong
I laughed out loud when I read that Sarah Palin's attorney, Thomas Van Flein, was quoted as saying that he thought the legislative special counsel should have talked to the governor in order to have a complete report. ("Troopergate findings are due today, 10/10/08). Who does he think he's fooling? He was the one who advised his clients, the Palins, NOT to talk to Mr. Branchflower. And it was very clear that any request for an interview with the governor would have been rejected, given her total about-face from her pledge of full cooperation with the investigation.
I agree with Mr. Van Flein that it would have been "nice" for Mr. Branchflower to interview the governor. Perhaps he should have advised his clients accordingly. Unbelievable that he now suggests that it is Mr. Branchflower's fault!
-- Ellen Toll
Anchorage
Sarah, you're embarrassing
A huge congratulations to Alaskans for Truth! Your efforts and the subsequent follow-through (phone calls, letters, attendance at the rally two weeks ago), of those that knew Sarah Palin was lying, is evidenced in the unanimous vote by the bipartisan legislative panel to release the report on "Troopergate." This is proof positive that democracy is alive and well in Alaska.
Now, we Alaskans have a chance to show John McCain/Sarah Palin what we will not stand for when we go to the polls on Nov. 4. Sarah, please come home. You've embarrassed all of us enough for one lifetime!
-- Chantel Ayers-Kalish
Anchorage
Daily News did a poor job
Lisa Demer's article on the front of Sunday's Daily News regarding the Troopergate report is utterly ridiculous. It reports that Palin believes she was vindicated by the report and did nothing wrong.
The only way one might begin to suspect she is incorrect in this claim is a counterclaim by Democratic State Sen. Kim Elton. The reader has to flip to Page A-12 to find out that Palin didn't even read the report.
Ostensibly, the newspaper exists to report news, not just he-said/she-said stories. There really is a fact of the matter as to whether or not the report vindicated Sarah Palin. Perhaps you could tell us about it in a front page article.
-- Brett M. Gilland
Anchorage
Copyright © Wed Oct 15 17:03:27 EDT 20081900 The Anchorage Daily News (www.adn.com)
Comment on: How Palin Can Save Mainstream Media at 10/15/2008 4:58 PM EDT
abqcleve,
This confirms what you where saying: This is from the Alaska Daily News:
Palin losing friends on the home front
MICHAEL CAREY
COMMENT
(09/29/08 23:03:05)
Sarah Palin may be making new friends as she campaigns the nation, but at home, she's making new enemies. She better get elected vice president. If she returns to Alaska as governor, the reception will be frosty -- and not because winter has arrived.
In the last month, Palin has become something inconceivable during her first two years as the state's chief executive: A polarizing figure rapidly emptying the storehouse of good will she accumulated.
For starters, her relationship with the press has collapsed -- by her choice. She rarely talks to reporters. Her attack on the "media elite" at the Republican National Convention should have embarrassed her. There is no media elite in Alaska, and she generally received favorable press, except from a few conservative dissenters, as a candidate for governor and as governor.
You say she was unhappy with the eastern media, not the local scribes when she spoke to the convention. Well, during her recent visit to New York City she attended a dinner put together by Rupert Murdoch who, according to gossip columnist Cindy Adams, "piloted Sarah around" during the evening. Murdoch is one of the world's most influential media barons. Also present was Cathy Black, president of Hearst Magazines. Other VIPS on hand at Tao on 58th Street, where a Kobe rib eye steak costs $88, included Sarah Ferguson, Martha Stewart, designer Vera Wang and the Queen of Jordan. Not the media elite -- just the elite.
Troopergate was once a provincial tempest in a teapot that could have been resolved with minimal recriminations. Now it's a full-fledged partisan battle, and the search for truth has become the hunt for a diamond in a cesspool.
Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Hollis French deserves criticism for his clumsy response once Troopergate went national: He should have never used the word "impeachment" in any context. But the bulk of this responsibility for the ugly mess falls on Palin herself, who can't separate her personal life from her professional life, Attorney General Talis Colberg, who can't figure out if he works for the people of Alaska or the Palin family, and the hammerheads sent up here by John McCain to run the local McCain-Palin campaign. Like their masters, these guys will tell any old tale about Hollis French, the Democrats and the media as long as it advances their cause. Remember Rudy Guiliani and Karl Rove touting Palin's military experience as commander of the national guard? And her foreign policy experience because Alaska is near Russia? Pants-on-fire lies, but hey, who needs facts when you have talking points provided by headquarters in Washington.
Investigator Steve Branchflower be warned. If you issue a report on Troopergate before the election in any fashion critical of Gov. Palin, you can expect to be made to look like a war criminal. Or worse.
Thanks to Troopergate, the relationship Palin established with Democrats during two legislative sessions -- the trust and accommodation she needed to pass her gas-line and oil-tax legislation -- no longer exists.
Throughout her political career, Palin has benefited from establishing and exploiting contrast favorable to her. The contrast between Palin the woman-of-integrity and dishonest Republican bosses. The contrast between the fresh new Palin and ham-handed incumbent fossil Gov. Frank Murkowski. The contrast between woman-of-the-people Palin and the public-be-damned oil companies. Even the contrast between young, vital Palin and aging, stiff John McCain -- which perversely enough has helped John McCain in the polls.
Now Palin stands in contrast with herself, before and after her nomination. And there's no benefit for her -- at least not in Alaska where she is still the governor.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Carey is the former editorial page editor of the Anchorage Daily News.
Copyright © Wed Oct 15 16:56:23 EDT 20081900 The Anchorage Daily News (www.adn.com)
Posted by: News you can use from Alaskans: | October 16, 2008 8:05 PM
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Anonymous:
That wasn't my question. Are you interested in reducing abortion? The answer is in sex education, empowerment of women, and the provision of birth control to any one who wants to engage in sexual activity.
Nuff said.
Posted by: Concerned | October 16, 2008 8:02 PM
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god and religion has no place in politics.
Posted by: common sense | October 16, 2008 8:00 PM
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Meaning disgust for a woman who resorts to abortion for convenience starts at one. So perhaps the threshold is zero rather than one.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 7:59 PM
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So Anonymous...
You support teaching sex-ed and making birth-control available???
Posted by: Concerned | October 16, 2008 7:57 PM
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Sonia Kermaz:
Anonymous...
I'm comparing the reproductive systems and reproductive choices of fleas and humans.
In an overpopulated planet, the choice isn't to murder or not to murder humans, the choice is how, when and why. I prefer family planning, including abortion, to war, starvation, and disease. It's less messy and cruel.
October 16, 2008 8:39 AM
________________________________________
The posts filled with wilful ignorance about abortion (considering so much hard science based facts - human embryology and abortion statistics, including legal arguments from an attorney who practices constitutional law - has been posted on this forum on various threads and blogs) one has a tough time deciding whether to cry or vomit in disgust.
Your comparison of the reproductive systems of humans and fleas is pathetic and ignorant at best and atrocious at worst.
Abortion happens to be the taking the life of a completely innocent and defenseless human being in the womb. No amount of giving fancy words to describe the act will change the reality.
And btw, did you know Hitler had his own ideas about how to deal with "inconvenient" people. It is too bad he couldn't get everybody to agree with him. And so it will be with abortion. The objections raised about the atrocity of the act and the hardened inhuman attitude towards it will continue. Even if it results in only one woman changing her mind towards abortion, the work will have been worth it. Changing the attitude of one woman at a time in order to save one unborn child at a time is the goal. More and more medical doctors are becoming reluctant to perform abortions because their knowledge of human embryology and watching the activity of the unborn children in the womb via ultrasound makes it difficult for them to take that life. The conscience clause which permits doctors in some countries to refuse to do abortions has a small impact (even if it might appear insignificant in the overall statistics) on reducing the number of abortions.
In a press report about a woman who had had seven abortions by the time she was 39, the reporter, a strongly pro-choice person herself, wrote about her disgust for the woman not only because she had had seven abortions, but because she had such a callous attitude towards her unborn children. So, seven abortions made the reporter realize it was about taking the life of innocent unborn children and she was disgusted with a woman who was completely callous about it. What about those who consider abortion their right, "right" to kill an unborn child? Those of us who are against abortion of convenience feel compassion for the defenseless child and disgust for the woman even when the woman aborts her first unborn child. Our thresholds for disgust for a woman who would take the life of her own innocent child out of convenience for herself with no regard for the child, is set much lower. At exactly one.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 7:54 PM
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Concerned the Christian Now Liberated,
Yo! Concy pussycat!
Avoiding McCain and Palin by the good ole neocon red, white and blue strategy of diverting of real issues from the fumblings and mumblings political farts polluting the American political-economic-social landscape?
After all, Americans are not only electing for an American President, but also the "Leader of the Free World" as many Americans pointed out.
We can't have an American President who is into just pandering to the White Conservative Evangelicals, Concerned Christians and the Now Liberated Christians......
By their words and actions on domestic issues we will know them.
And Americans need ablutions from the political, economic and social farts emanating from McCain and Palin. It stinks the American political landscape.
Cheers
Posted by: Jihadist | October 16, 2008 7:50 PM
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So, Kimberly,
I've provided an impressive sampling of Mr. Obama's experience...care to respond?
Maybe you need more.
In 2001 Mr. Obama sponsored legislation to his state senate to address predatory lending procedures. Now, Mr. McCain likes to talk about his support of somebody else's bill in 2006 addressing those issues, but that was only after Fannie Mae regulators reported that for the previous FOUR years, FM had cooked their books.
Now, who demonstrates more foresight on these issues???
Posted by: Concerned | October 16, 2008 7:47 PM
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Regarding the abortion issue, doesn't it make sense for people on all sides of that issue to come together to tackle this issue earlier in the game? Abortions can be reduced if we all agree to:
1) Openly educate our youth with sexual and reproductive education programs.
2) Openly educate our youth on the dangers of unprotected sex.
3) Remove the stigma of birth control.
4) Empower young women to make decisions about their bodies and sexual activity.
The truth is, Palin is against sex ed. WHAT??? Abstinance only does NOT work. Let's be honest about where the problem is. Educate our kids. Communicate with them so that if they ignore the advice ALL parents give their kids (wait till you're ready), they can at least be smart about it.
Seriously, does Palin need to be slapped any harder in the face with the failed results of an abstinance only policy before she realizes it ISN'T working????
Posted by: Concerned | October 16, 2008 7:27 PM
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As the media descend like vultures to pick the bones of Joe the Plumber
"Joe the Plumber is not exactly a plumber, he's "not even close" to making the kind of money that would result in higher taxes from Democrat Barack Obama's proposals and has such an aversion to taxes that a lien was filed against him by the state of Ohio."
Other American plumbers have stepped forward to back up Joe's claims against Obama's plans to tax small businesses.
Dick and Dan the Plumber
Dan Franklin is a plumber for Lafrance Plumbing in Syracuse. He's been following the presidential race very closely. He laughs when "Joe the Plumber" is mentioned, but says he has a great point. Lafrance Plumbing makes more than $250,000 a year, and would have to pay higher taxes if Senator Barack Obama is elected, and implements his tax plan. For Lafrance, lowering profits, is not an option.
Posted by: KIMBERLY | October 16, 2008 7:24 PM
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Sonia Kermaz:
Anonymous...
I'm comparing the reproductive systems and reproductive choices of fleas and humans.
In an overpopulated planet, the choice isn't to murder or not to murder humans, the choice is how, when and why. I prefer family planning, including abortion, to war, starvation, and disease. It's less messy and cruel.
October 16, 2008 8:39 AM
________________________________________
When I read posts filled with wilful ignorance about abortion (considering so much hard science based has been posted on this forum on various threads and blogs) I don't know whether to cry or vomit in disgust.
Your comparison of the reproductive systems of humans and fleas are pathetic at best and atrocious at worst.
Abortion happens to be the taking the life of a defenseless human being in the womb, and no amount of giving fancy words to describe the act will change the reality.
And btw, did you know Hitler had his own ideas about how to deal with "inconvenient" people. It is too badly he couldn't get everybody to agree with him. And so it will be with abortion.
I read a press report about a woman who had had seven abortions by the time she was 39. The reporter, a strongly pro-choice person herself, was disgusted, she wrote, because the woman had had seven abortions and she had such a callous attitude towards her unborn children. So, seven abortions made the reporter realize it was about taking the life of innocent unborn children and she was disgusted with a woman who was completely callous about it. But those of us who are anti-abortion feel that disgust about the first abortion. Our thresholds for disgust for a woman who would take the life of her own innocent child is set much lower that is all.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 7:18 PM
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Mr. Berlinerblau,
With all respect, the only faith-based issue that counts is the respect of the First Amendment.
Posted by: Concerned | October 16, 2008 7:13 PM
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If Sarah Palin had come out with some brilliant economic comments two weeks ago instead of pit bull attacks, she might, just might have distracted attention from McCain/Bush long enough for John to change persona.
John did himself more good at the opening and closing of the third debate by hand shaking and eye contact than by anything he said.
Posted by: Stephen Christopher Piper | October 16, 2008 6:44 PM
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Here ya go Kimberly:
I would also note that in addition to the list below, Mr. Obama has a B.A. in Political Science from Columbia University with specialization in international relations (and a thesis written on Soviet nuclear disarmarmet), and that he graduated magna cum laude from Harvard law, and that he was the president of the Harvard Law Review.
1) Community Activist for 4 years
2) Constitutional Law Professor- someone who will respect it instead of step on it. Taught for 11 years
3) Civil Rights Attorney-3 years
4) 10 years legislative experience on his own merits- 7 years IL State Senator, 3 years US Senator
5)He has written and passed ethics reforms in IL State Senate
6)He got the most sweeping ethics reform bill to pass in the U.S. Senate since Watergate. It stagnated for over 18 months,but he got the deadlock broken and the bill passed
7) He wrote legislation that cut taxes in the state of IL by over $100 million in a three year period.
8)He wrote and had pass welfare reform bills, death penalty reform bills.
9) Against the Iraq War
10) Demonstrated ability to work with people across the aisle. Worked with the Senator considered to be the most conservative Republican in the Senate, Tom Coburn, to write and have pass the Obama-Coburn Transparency Act of 2007 which lets " we, the people" know exactly how the government is appropriating and spending our money.
What has McCain done? Graduated almost last in his class? Buddied around with Bush?
Posted by: Concerned | October 16, 2008 6:44 PM
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Here ya go Kimberly:
I would also note that in addition to the list below, Mr. Obama has a B.A. in Political Science from Columbia University with specialization in international relations (and a thesis written on Soviet nuclear disarmarmet), and that he graduated magna cum laude from Harvard law, and that he was the president of the Harvard Law Review.
1) Community Activist for 4 years
2) Constitutional Law Professor- someone who will respect it instead of step on it. Taught for 11 years
3) Civil Rights Attorney-3 years
4) 10 years legislative experience on his own merits- 7 years IL State Senator, 3 years US Senator
5)He has written and passed ethics reforms in IL State Senate
6)He got the most sweeping ethics reform bill to pass in the U.S. Senate since Watergate. It stagnated for over 18 months,but he got the deadlock broken and the bill passed
7) He wrote legislation that cut taxes in the state of IL by over $100 million in a three year period.
8)He wrote and had pass welfare reform bills, death penalty reform bills.
9) Against the Iraq War
10) Demonstrated ability to work with people across the aisle. Worked with the Senator considered to be the most conservative Republican in the Senate, Tom Coburn, to write and have pass the Obama-Coburn Transparency Act of 2007 which lets " we, the people" know exactly how the government is appropriating and spending our money.
What has McCain done? Graduated almost last in his class? Buddied around with Bush?
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 6:42 PM
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In my inner ear, I hear the ghost of Gilda Radner's Emily latella whining "Who's this Joe the Plumber?"
How I miss her!
Posted by: jrosen | October 16, 2008 6:28 PM
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The party of religion forgot one thing.
Whatever you do to............
Cut welfare in the 90's yes I agreed.
Turn around and give it to the wealthy in tax cuts
I don’t agree.
We can trick man not GOD
Posted by: kb | October 16, 2008 6:25 PM
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Marc, Marc, Marc,
Some contemporary reviews of Islam:
From: Ayaan Hirsi Ali's autobiography, "Infidel".
"Thus begins the extraordinary story of a woman born into a family of desert nomads, circumcised as a child, educated by radical imams in Kenya and Saudi Arabia, taught to believe that if she uncovered her hair, terrible tragedies would ensue. It's a story that, with a few different twists, really could have led to a wretched life and a lonely death, as her grandmother warned. But instead, Hirsi Ali escaped -- and transformed herself into an internationally renowned spokeswoman for the rights of Muslim women."
ref: Washington Post book review.
four excerpts:
p. 47 paperback issue:
"Some of the Saudi women in our neighborhood were regularly beaten by their husbands. You could hear them at night. Their screams resounded across the courtyards. "No! Please! By Allah!"
p.68:
"The Pakistanis were Muslims but they too had castes. The Untouchable girls, both Indian and Pakistani were darker skin. The others would not play with them because they were untouchable. We thought that was funny because of course they were touchable: we touched them see? but also horrifying to think of yourself as untouchable, despicable to the human race."
p.309
"Between October 2004 and May 2005, eleven Muslim girls were killed by their families in just two regions (there are 20 regions in Holland). After that, people stopped telling me I was exaggerating."
p. 347
"The kind on thinking I saw in Saudi Arabia and among the Brotherhood of Kenya and Somalia, is incompatible with human rights and liberal values. It preserves the feudal mind-set based on tribal concepts of honor and shame. It rests on self-deception, hyprocricy, and double standards. It relies on the technologial advances of the West while pretending to ignore their origin in Western thinking. This mind-set makes the transition to modernity very painful for all who practice Islam".
From Sir Salman Rushdie's book "Satanic Verses", p. 376, paperback issue - for those 1 billion Muslims to read as they are forbidden to purchase or read said book. (Ditto for Ayaan Hirsi Ali's autobiography, Infidel)
an excerpt:
"The faithful lived by lawlessness, but in those years Mahound - or should one say the Archangel Gibreel? - should one say Al-Lah? - became obsessed by law.
Amid the palm-trees of the oasis Gibreel appeared to the Prophet and found himself spouting rules, rules, rules, until the faithful could scarcely bear the prospect of any more revelation, Salman said, rules about every damn thing, if a man farts let him turn his face to the wind, a rule
about which hand to use for the purpose of cleaning one's behind.
It was as if no aspect of human existence was to be left unregulated, free. The revelation - the recitation- told the faithful how much to eat, how deeply they should sleep, and which sexual
positions had received divine sanction, so that they leamed that sodomy and the missionary position were approved of by the archangel, whereas the forbidden postures included all those in which the female was on top.
Gibreel further listed the permitted and forbidden subjects of conversation, and earmarked the parts of the body which could not be scratched no matter how unbearably they might itch. He vetoed the consumption of prawns, those bizarre other-worldly creatures which no member of the faithful had ever seen, and required animals to be killed slowly, by bleeding, so that by experiencing their deaths to the full they
might arrive at an understanding of the meaning of their lives, for it is only at the moment of death that living creatures understand
that life has been real, and not a sort of dream.
And Gibreel the archangel specified the manner in which a man should be buried, and how his property should be divided, so that Salman the Persian got to wondering what manner of God this was that soundedso much like a businessman.
This was when he had the idea that
destroyed his faith, because he recalled that of course Mahound himself had been a businessman, and a damned successful one at that, a person to whom organization and rules came naturally, so
how excessively convenient it was that he should have come up with such a very businesslike archangel, who handed down the management decisions of this highly corporate, if noncorporeal, God."
More on Islam and farting: (i.e. Sir Rushdie and got it right)
"Farting is problematic in Islam. During prayer, a worshipper must not fart. Sahih Bukhari (1.4.137) writes that Allah will not accept a Muslim’s prayer if he/she passes wind during the ritual.
The exception occurs if the worshipper farts silently, or the fart does not smell. In such a case, he/she may continue with the prayer (ibid, 1.4.139).Sunaan Nasai (1.162) writes that if you fart during a prayer you must redo ablution. Sahih Bukhari (9.86.86) says that for a “farter” Allah will not accept his/her prayer until he/she performs another ablution."
My kids recommended both books!!!!
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | October 16, 2008 6:22 PM
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What planet are you living on, Jacques?
It was McCain who said the economy was fundamentally sounds four days before the meltdown. Joe Plumber isn't going to help him. Most of us know, that a man, who is worth 10 million, whose wife owns the largest distributor in AZ, is not going to feel the crunch of average Americans. You want to know where the polls went south for McCain then look no further.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 6:12 PM
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Add to that, "what in God's name is going on with McCain's tongue thing? Ewww!"
The reason that they didn't discuss religion is that they don't want to go there. Neither of them. There's enough crazy pastors on either side that it has been neutralized it as an issue. I thought that Obama was quite restrained when he graciously said that Palin was an "astute politician" and raised the issue of special needs children to the forefront.
Posted by: Athena4 | October 16, 2008 5:47 PM
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I asked Tuliplady to
--Please share with me Obama's political acomplishments that will convince me he is able to lead.
And she wasn't exactly able to give me an answer.
So if she's still reading here I wanted to share this video of NY Governor David Paterson having a similar struggle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_y0-_-0EHyE
Tuliplady- remember to vote with your brain not your heart.
Posted by: KIMBERLY | October 16, 2008 5:44 PM
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Concerned The Christian Now Liberated
If you're gonna right about Islam, you might actually read about it. As it stands, you come across like a bigot and racist, right up there with Jesse Helms. Isn't there other some other country you could belong to? Your kind are what has been dragging America (not to mention humanity) down for ages. Your kind are the ones who still belong to the KKK. I am certainly glad you don't have kids - goodness knows how you'd mess them up!
Posted by: Marc Edward | October 16, 2008 5:43 PM
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McCain at times looked like a bleached sausage with veins. Hope he gets some help, or meds at least.
Amazing that grasping right wingers don't comprehend that so-called issues like Ayers, Acorn, 3rd term abortions and plumbers who net $250k are just not relevant concerns for the typical working person.
When you're out of ideas that work, these emotional wedges along with endless personal attacks appeal to weak minds; it's fascinating how they aren't aware that they are the ones demeaned by the process. Who can explain it.
Posted by: DA | October 16, 2008 5:41 PM
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Jacques,
You evidently are lamenting that the presidential debates have been bereft of reference to faith-based issues. Yet, in your October 6 column, you commented, "When all is said and done in 2008, nonbelievers will have questions: why were the atheists, always hot on the bestseller lists, so irrelevant this election season?" Could it be that this election season, instead of the atheists, it's the faith-based issues that are irrelevant? Hmmm. Score one for the atheists.
Posted by: Harveyh5 | October 16, 2008 5:29 PM
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AMERICA, EUROPE AND THE WORLD NEED HEALING THROUGH FORWARD THINKING IRISH-AMERICAN HARVARD LAW SCHOLAR BARACK OBAMA
When Obama ends the illegal GOP Republican Iraq War, $1Trillion will flow back into the United States and create 20 million American jobs.
Obama loves America, while GOP Republican McCain loves tax loopholes for the rich.
Joe the plumber is actually Samuel the unlicensed plumber who exemplifies McCain’s continued failures and inert fraudulent nature of the lost GOP REPUBLICAN PARTY. What a joke.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GOP REPUBLICAN WALL STREET FRAUD AND BLIND GREED HAS KILLED SUPER-CAPITALISM
Thanks to GOP Republican Wall Street fraud, the International Banking System will no longer use capitalism.
Asia and Latin America will stay far away from American super-capitalism.
Europe will demand transparency and strict enforcement of International Banking Laws for ALL NATIONS, especially the United States.
Europe views Wall Street CEOs and investors as criminals unworthy of trust who must be closely monitored commensurate with their dishonest nature.
DEMOCRACY RISING RALLIES TO EDUCATE AND EMPOWER AMERICAN CITIZENS
COMMERCIAL ALERT AND CITIZEN RIGHTS
(PROTECT AMERICAN FAMILIES, COMMUNITIES, U.S. DEMOCRACY FROM WALL STREET FRAUD AND CORPORATE CORRUPTION)
THE RICH ARE STEALING AND SELLING AMERICA: STOP THEM!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SUPER RICH GOP REPUBLICAN MILLIONAIRES / BILLIONAIRES ARE HIDING $3TRILLION STOLEN FROM THE TREASURY (AMERICAN PEOPLE) IN FOREIGN BANKS, PROPERTIES AND SWEATSHOPS.
CONFISCATE ALL PROPERTIES (DOMESTIC / FOREIGN) BELONGING TO RICH REPUBLICANS INVOLVED WITH ROBBING THE TREASURY AND RETURN THE $3TRILLION TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.
IT IS RIGHT TO PROSECUTE ACTS OF TREASON AGAINST THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since 1929, Republicans and Democrats have each controlled the presidency for nearly 40 years. So which party has been better for the American pocketbook? If you invested $10,000 exclusively under either Democratic or Republican administrations, this is how you would you have fared:
From 1929 to 2008, $10,000 invested in S & P under the GOP Republican Presidency would have grown to $11,733. ($51,211 if you exclude Herbert Hoover’s presidency during the Great Depression)
From 1929 to 2008, $10,000 invested in S & P under the Democratic Presidency would have grown to $300,671.
Democrats have always been better for the American People, than GOP Republicans.
GOP Republican high propensity for Greed and Fraud has finally destroyed their Wall Street Golden Goose.
Give the GOP Republican criminals handcuffs and property confiscation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AMERICA, EUROPE AND THE WORLD NEED HEALING THROUGH FORWARD THINKING IRISH-AMERICAN HARVARD LAW SCHOLAR BARACK OBAMA
When Obama ends the illegal GOP Republican Iraq War, $1Trillion will flow back into the United States and create 20 million American jobs.
Obama loves America, while GOP Republican McCain loves tax loopholes for the rich.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by: GOP REPUBLICAN WALL STREET FRAUD MCCAIN | October 16, 2008 5:28 PM
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McCain is to blame for the lagging polls in his campaign. He has not one accomplishment in which
he can point to in the last eight years. The party he heads, and votes with, has become the party of incompetence (KATRINA), the party of torture, the party of jingoistic wars, the party of non-diplomacy, the party of arrogance, the party of secrecy, the party of financial mismanagement and greed, the party of non-accounability.
Posted by: jbrubin | October 16, 2008 5:20 PM
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"Thanks for reminding me that Saturday Night Live has a special on tonight."
hmm..
I'll be watching the Al Smith Dinner tonight. Its one of American Catholicism's most pomp and posh events --a massive fundraiser for the Catholic charities of the Archdiocese of New York.
The dinner and speeches will be shown/streamed live on C-Span and Sirius Satellite Radio's The Catholic Channel at 9:00 eastern.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 4:59 PM
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And still Victoria and Reality Challenged/Obfuscating Jihadist cannot come to grips with flaws and errors of Islam as they continue making light of USA politicians instead of addressing the much more serious issue of Islamic, koranic-driven terror and abuse of women.
Once again, the following says it all:
Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/ plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.
This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/ mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.
And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.
Current crises:
The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder.
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | October 16, 2008 4:47 PM
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The old videos are just beginning to surface. My favorite is Pastor Wright declaring Obama is the Messiah from the pulpet of his church. It pairs nicely (almost word for word) with Farrakhan declaring Obama the Messiah just a week ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ha5HEc-vOJs
Although the videos of Obama giving his work with
Bill Ayers as experience for a political career is priceless..
"Obama paid ACORN, which has endorsed him for president, $800,000 to register new voters, payments his campaign failed to accurately report. (They were disguised in his FEC disclosure as payments to a front group called Citizen Services Inc. for advance work.)
Whats more, Obama worked as executive director of ACORNs voter-registration arm, Project Vote, in 1992. Joined by two other community organizers on Chicagos South Side, Obama conducted the voter-registration drive that helped elect Carol Moseley-Braun to the Senate that year.
The next year, 1993, Obama joined the civil-rights law firm Davis Miner Barnhill & Galland, where he sued the state of Illinois on behalf of ACORN to implement the federal Motor Voter law, which the GOP governor at the time refused to do. Then-Gov. Jim Edgar argued, presciently, that the Clinton law would invite voter fraud.
Obama downplays his ties to ACORN, and his campaign denies coordinating with ACORN to register voters.
After Walter Annenbergs foundation offered several hundred million dollars to American public schools in the mid-90s, Bill Ayers applied for $50 million for Chicago. The purpose of his application was to secure funds to raise political consciousness in Chicagos public schools. After he won the grant, Ayers's group chose Barack Obama to distribute the money. Between 1995 and 1999, Obama distributed the $50 million and raised another $60 million from other civic groups to augment it. In doing so, he was following Ayers's admonition to grant the funds to external organizations, like American Community Organizations for Reform."
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 4:45 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqdfzi1Ega0
Watcha wanna bet Plumber Joe finds that elusive financing to buy that business after all?
Thanks for the laughs Anon.
Posted by: VICTORIA | October 16, 2008 4:41 PM
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Here's the requested side by side Tina-Sarah split you requested Anon-
the split screen occurs 52 seconds in-
Thanks for reminding me that Saturday Night Live has a special on tonight.
Ya think Joe the Plumber will show up?
You betcha he will!
He's on FOX right now!
Posted by: VICTORIA | October 16, 2008 4:38 PM
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Enjoy this from last week-
Darrell Hammond form Saturday Night Live, as John McCain in the debate last week-
meandering aimlessly around the stage
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_pl80
the second video on the bottom has that specific part-
Posted by: VICTORIA | October 16, 2008 4:31 PM
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Hey anon- if those videos are so old and have just resurfaced-
WHY DO THEY HAVE CAMPAIGN ADS FROM LAST WEEK IN THEM!!?????!
Posted by: VICTORIA | October 16, 2008 4:28 PM
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I'd like to take credit for the connection- but I'm not that clever.
OOOO- Acorn and Ayers-
Obama's Secret Nightmare
OMIGOD anon- that video was so funny
Acorn bullying the banks into pushing subprime loans and engaging in predatory lending practices-
Poor banks!
Posted by: VICTORIA | October 16, 2008 4:27 PM
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Victoria compares John McCain to Grandpa Simpson and posts a Olbermann retread Batman/Penquin debate.
The debate was yesterday. Is that the best she's got?
She must be afraid to post pictures of Tina Fey and Sarah Palin. Palin is a stunningly beautiful woman and makes Fey look like an anemic child.
I call and raise you two brand new ACORN/AYERS (Obama is fixing to tax the hell out of us) utubes:
ACORN - Obama's Secret Nightmare
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIHXfoazp9I
Money Trail: Ayers to Obama to ACORN to Wright
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=korhJDq-jU0
Take a look at the old videos of Obama that have surfaced. These will go viral.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 4:17 PM
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For more silliness-
here is the Batman vs. Penguin debate from the old '60's show.
Keith Olbermann had it on his show yesterday- (he is a left pundit)
Burgess Meredith (the penguin) rails-
The dark stranger who hides his identity?
We don't really know who this guy is-
he consorts with criminals, maybe he IS a criminal!
After the many many ads and speeches by the McPalin camp- linking Obama to every dangerous and fearful phobia lurking deep in the american psyche it is too funny-
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=batman+vs+penguin&search_type=&aq=f
Of course we love Jerry Lewis- he hosts the Labor Day Muscular Dystrophy Telethon every year.
If you don't cry when he sings, "You'll never walk alone"- you just don't have a heart.
Posted by: VICTORIA | October 16, 2008 3:56 PM
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Jihadist,
Farnaz IS Jewish, but atheist. And she is from Iran. But now she is an American, and I think that was her intent in what she said.
Posted by: Arminius | October 16, 2008 3:55 PM
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All this French bashing is sad sad sad. Without the French there would be no United States! They not only funded the American Revolution they fought along side our soldiers. One of our most treasured national symbols is the Statue of Liberty...a gift from the people of France! So much for gratitude!
Posted by: Rick W | October 16, 2008 3:54 PM
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Jihadist is citing Farnaz as an average American poster...
FARNAZ???
Posted by: I ART LAUGHING | October 16, 2008 3:48 PM
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JIHADIST-
We are FREE MARKET CAPITALISTS! We have no use for that commie/pinko hippy socialist crap!
Here you go- it is on the front page of Yahoo-
http://www.yahoo.com/
the season of silliness is here-
OLD MAN YELLS AT CLOUD
http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=A0geu.Sbl_dI9.kAa5JXNyoA?ei=UTF-8&p=OLD%20MAN%20YELLS%20AT%20CLOUD&fr2=tab-web&fr=yfp-t-305
A half hour ago I googled that, and there was one line pic-
That is Grandpa Simpson of The Simpson's fame-
John McCain has been portrayed lately as that old man who shuffles out inhis slippers to get his paper, screams at the kids to "get the *#^! off my lawn!"
Posted by: VICTORIA | October 16, 2008 3:44 PM
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Once again:
Victoria and The Reality Challenged/Obfuscating Jihadist,
Unbelievable, as both of you again make commentary and small talk about the politics of the USA while your religion creates havoc all over the world with its warmongering, bombings and abuse of women.
Again address the flaws and errors of Islam before your next rants about Sarah Palin and whatever else you find fault with in the USA.
And as requested many times and still without a response, address the commentaries of Ayaan Hirsi Ali in her autobiography, Infidel:
"Thus begins the extraordinary story of a woman born into a family of desert nomads, circumcised as a child, educated by radical imams in Kenya and Saudi Arabia, taught to believe that if she uncovered her hair, terrible tragedies would ensue. It's a story that, with a few different twists, really could have led to a wretched life and a lonely death, as her grandmother warned. But instead, Hirsi Ali escaped -- and transformed herself into an internationally renowned spokeswoman for the rights of Muslim women."
ref: Washington Post book review.
four excerpts:
p. 47 paperback issue:
"Some of the Saudi women in our neighborhood were regularly beaten by their husbands. You could hear them at night. Their screams resounded across the courtyards. "No! Please! By Allah!"
p.68:
"The Pakistanis were Muslims but they too had castes. The Untouchable girls, both Indian and Pakistani were darker skin. The others would not play with them because they were untouchable. We thought that was funny because of course they were touchable: we touched them see? but also horrifying to think of yourself as untouchable, despicable to the human race."
p.309
"Between October 2004 and May 2005, eleven Muslim girls were killed by their families in just two regions (there are 20 regions in Holland). After that, people stopped telling me I was exaggerating."
p. 347
"The kind on thinking I saw in Saudi Arabia and among the Brotherhood of Kenya and Somalia, is incompatible with human rights and liberal values. It preserves the feudal mind-set based on tribal concepts of honor and shame. It rests on self-deception, hyprocricy, and double standards. It relies on the technologial advances of the West while pretending to ignore their origin in Western thinking. This mind-set makes the transition to modernity very painful for all who practice Islam".
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | October 16, 2008 3:40 PM
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Anonymous:" Jerry Lewis is a Jew. We are Americans and we love the Jews with or without the French."
I am not too sure about that now. Have read the vitriol of some American posters in On Faith against Jews. You did not read Farnaz et al posts against such folks?
-------------------------------------------------
Arminius,
Thanks. I see now that Joe the Plumber is a real person. And there is quite a few fuzzy logic here on taxes and economics.
Cheers
J
Posted by: Jihadist | October 16, 2008 3:31 PM
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The God Vote?
God has no place in Government. Parents and the church are the teachers of God, not government. Whenever God has held sway over governments, people die; in fact, more people have been killed for God than any other single issue.
Please leave God to parents and the church, the government has more important things to do.
Posted by: Mark Hamblett | October 16, 2008 3:27 PM
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Check it out:
Ryan Ellis, Director of Tax Policy at Americans for Tax Reform, compares the tax policies of Sen. John McCain and Sen. Barack Obama:
Posted by: BEFORE U VOTE | October 16, 2008 3:23 PM
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The Christpuncher: No one has enough info on god to have a discussion about him because he is a mythical figure created by a bunch of uneducated daydreamers that were so afraid of reality that they had to live in a world where they could blame someone for everything.
-------------------------------------------------
Of course it is God who caused the meltdown in Wall Street. Religion poisons the financial sector. God is to be blamed for not doing anything about that in not showering money from heaven to the traders and speculators and what have you.
...and there is no guarantee that regardless of belief or non-belief, race, gender, level of education and income, that one could not become a nitwit, a dimwit, a dimbulb, a lesser light, a blinkered light and what have you.
I invoke God every blinking day as in:
Oh my God! McCain and Palin for President and VP of the States?
Good God! They going red, white and blue in the face?
Oh God! They are forgetting the blacks, browns, yellows and every shade in between in talking about the blue (blue collar workers) and red (the liberals).
I am a happily uneducated and daydreaming believer.
Who are you? But punch away at Jesus PBUH. He survived for two thousand years in our minds, hearts and life, and will survive another two thousand years too.
Christonomics :
- Charity begins at home.
- Have hope, faith and charity
Cheers
J
Posted by: Jihadist | October 16, 2008 3:18 PM
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Jihadist,
Joe the Plumber is for real. But, oddly, he's not a plumber, and his income now apparently is not close to $250K. He wants to buy and run a plumbing company. What is not clear is how $250K figures into it. If that is his take, then he must want to buy a multi-million dollar company. What is probably the truth is that $250K is the total income of the company, so he would only pay taxes on the profit. All very fuzzy right now.
Posted by: Arminius | October 16, 2008 3:08 PM
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"the American middle class dream of a mythical chicken in every pot, two cars in every garage, a jacuzzi in the backyard"
Jihadist sadly doesn't know anyone in America's middle class.
"one must love Jerry Lewis too, to emulate the French"
Jerry Lewis is a Jew. We are Americans and we love the Jews with or without the French.
Wake up will you?
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 3:05 PM
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Wow. Fidel Castro has come out of his cave to praise and endorse Obama again. Can you imagine how thrilled Fidel must be to have lived long enough to see fellow travellers Obama and Michelle so close to being installed in the White House. Maybe after four years under Obama's leadership- Americans will achieve the living standards of our neighbors in Cuba.
Posted by: Timothy | October 16, 2008 2:56 PM
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Salaam Victoria,
McCain stated at the Saddleback Forum, that Americans love to imitate the French? Ah, one must love Jerry Lewis and escargots too, to emulate the French.
So, Joe the Plumber was/is an actual person - Joe Wurzelbacher. It does not quite make sense to me how someone who makes USD 250,000 a year was not able to buy his business even before Obama taxed him "so much".
Why did he not buy his own business before and why now arguing because Obama is proposing to tax him "so much", he now would not be able to buy his own business in spite of making USD 250,000 per annum?
I am missing something here in Joe the Plumber's reasoning.
I am one who do not like the government to tax me too much, but, this is the first time I've heard of some objecting to taxing the lower income group rather than screaming for more taxation of the rich.
The Scandinavian countries, for one, imposed quite high taxes but they do have some of the best social security, social services and social safety net in the world.
There are some countries in the world that do not tax their citizens at all, including Gulf states and Brunei. But these states are not democracies as one would hope for.
The poor do not mind others being taxed as they pay little or no tax. The rich can afford to pay additional taxes or to avoid taxes many ways and by tax lopoholes. The middle class are the ones who screamed the most about increased taxes, perceiving they are unjustly being squeezed by the government while the poor got a free lunch, and the rich continues to lunch on caviar and champange.
Apparently, the Republicans are shrewdly exploiting the American middle class dream of a mythical chicken in every pot, two cars in every garage, a jacuzzi in the backyard......and sensing their fear they will not have them, be deprived of these material things in their "pursuit of happiness" with higher taxes broached by Obama.
No place for social equity or charity in capitalism? Or, is it just unchecked individualism and self-interest over collective well-being and interest going awry?
It is always the politicallly, economically and socially affected middle class who are cause for successful "revolutions" in any way and redefined nations and societies.
If the Iranian middle class, specifically the merchants of Iran's bazaars, are not that displeased by the Shah's policies, Ayatollah Khomeini would not have found his support. So, pay attention to what Joe the Plumber, Mark the Mechanic, Rosie the Riveter, Connie the Chicken Plucker et al has to say. They are shaking up the American political landscape and debate quite a bit.
Wassalam
J
Posted by: Jihadist | October 16, 2008 2:54 PM
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GOD! but we never see him,i don't know what he look likes...
Posted by: DESSALINES HAITI | October 16, 2008 2:38 PM
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"Remember that whole "checks and balances" thing?"
Ha!
Can you tell us precisely why you believe this country will thrive and prosper under the thumb of Obama/Pelosi/Reid ???
"a highly rational moderate like Obama"
Ha! Ha!
So far Obama is $385,000,000,000 to the left and still leaning. That's what he has already projected he will need to raise our taxes to fund his additional programs. Where do you think that money is going to come from? Hold on to your wallet. You are going to have change for your new leader Obama. Literally. You will have only change left in your pocket.
Obama = TAX AND SPEND
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 2:37 PM
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Anon, I'm sorry that not every single thread can be about abortion, but the truth is that it's a settled question. American support legal abortion, and the new President and Congress will probably set nation wide legal abortion into law.
Your side could have gotten restrictions on abortion if you'd been willing to compromise, but instead of the good, you wanted perfection - now you'll get neither - congratulations to your side for totally screwing up this issue for 40 years and getting NOTHING.
As of this thread, it's not the subject, and you weaken your argument trying to thrust it in here.
As for the debate, McCain buried himself. He's yesterdays news and they should move the election up by 2 weeks to spare the country.
Posted by: Marc Edward | October 16, 2008 2:34 PM
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TO THE CHRISTPUNCHER
YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT YOUR COMMENT...
Posted by: Netherlands Antilles | October 16, 2008 2:24 PM
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TO THE CHRISPUNCHER
YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT YOUR COMMENT...
Posted by: NETHERLANDS ANTILLES | October 16, 2008 2:21 PM
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Victoria and The Reality Challenged/Obfuscating Jihadist,
Unbelievable as both of you again make commentary and small talk about the politics of the USA while your religion creates havoc all over the world with its warmongering, bombings and abuse of women.
Again address the flaws and errors of Islam before your next rants about Sarah Palin and whatever else you find fault with in the USA.
And as requested many times and still without a response, address the commentaries of Ayaan Hirsi Ali in her autobiography, Infidel:
"Thus begins the extraordinary story of a woman born into a family of desert nomads, circumcised as a child, educated by radical imams in Kenya and Saudi Arabia, taught to believe that if she uncovered her hair, terrible tragedies would ensue. It's a story that, with a few different twists, really could have led to a wretched life and a lonely death, as her grandmother warned. But instead, Hirsi Ali escaped -- and transformed herself into an internationally renowned spokeswoman for the rights of Muslim women."
ref: Washington Post book review.
four excerpts:
p. 47 paperback issue:
"Some of the Saudi women in our neighborhood were regularly beaten by their husbands. You could hear them at night. Their screams resounded across the courtyards. "No! Please! By Allah!"
p.68:
"The Pakistanis were Muslims but they too had castes. The Untouchable girls, both Indian and Pakistani were darker skin. The others would not play with them because they were untouchable. We thought that was funny because of course they were touchable: we touched them see? but also horrifying to think of yourself as untouchable, despicable to the human race."
p.309
"Between October 2004 and May 2005, eleven Muslim girls were killed by their families in just two regions (there are 20 regions in Holland). After that, people stopped telling me I was exaggerating."
p. 347
"The kind on thinking I saw in Saudi Arabia and among the Brotherhood of Kenya and Somalia, is incompatible with human rights and liberal values. It preserves the feudal mind-set based on tribal concepts of honor and shame. It rests on self-deception, hyprocricy, and double standards. It relies on the technologial advances of the West while pretending to ignore their origin in Western thinking. This mind-set makes the transition to modernity very painful for all who practice Islam".
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | October 16, 2008 2:20 PM
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OBAMA BIDEN 08...!!!
Posted by: NETHERLANDS ANTILLES | October 16, 2008 2:15 PM
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Fairbro said: "[If Obama is elected] You can kiss goodbye to the pursuit of happiness, your right to start your own little company, your own farm, your own enterprise, your own real-estate agency, becoming an independent accountant, a dentist, an electrical contractor, a painter, a landscaper, a doctor."
Wow. What incredible power you ascribe to the man! He can actually eliminate the pursuit of happiness? There will be no new painters or doctors or accountants under an Obama administration?
You need to calm down, bro. No one human being can change America that radically, even if he wanted to - which we have absolutely no reason to believe that Obama does. Remember that whole "checks and balances" thing? Sure the country will tilt a leetle more to the left, but on the world political spectrum it will be a barely perceptible movement of the needle. Then in a few years a Repub will come along and move it back another degree or two to the right. That's how it works. But it won't move much. America is a very conservative country (even its "liberals" are centrists) and no-one, least of all a highly rational moderate like Obama, can move it far off its path.
So relax.
Posted by: Stantheman | October 16, 2008 2:05 PM
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Kimberly
I don't want to convince you.
From what you wrote you seem perfectly able to make up your mind. And thankfully that is a right we all have.
So if leadership to you is accomplishments in the past, so be it.
I am looking to the presence and the future, and it is my believe that McCain isn't the right leader for the hard times we face now and the difficulties that are ahead.
Posted by: Tuliplady | October 16, 2008 2:02 PM
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Hey Jihadist, we're back to french fries and french vanilla ice cream again, as a matter of fact, John McCain inscrutably stated at the Saddleback Forum, that americans love to imitate the french- (which was news to America) and stumping,repeated it again to a tepid and confused repsonse, and since has dropped it.
Actually there was an invitation thrown out there to bait Obama about Palin, and he wisely, and decorously declined to attack her or even mention her.
Joe the Plumber is an actual person that Obama had a conversation with- (Joe Wurzelbacher) and a McCain supporter.
He said he was an undecided, abd now supports McCain.
He asked Obama how he would be able to buy his business, where he make $250,000. a year, if Obama was going to tax him so much.
Maybe the GOP threw him in there to as a gotcha maneuver.
McCain mentioned him 21 times last night, and Obama- 4x.
Posted by: VICTORIA | October 16, 2008 2:00 PM
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No one has enough info on god to have a discussion about him because he is a mythical figure created by a bunch of uneducated daydreamers that were so afraid of reality that they had to live in a world where they could blame someone for everything.
Posted by: The Christpuncher | October 16, 2008 1:56 PM
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Neither man probably know enough about God to have a discussion about Him, and that is sad.....
Posted by: Jan | October 16, 2008 1:31 PM
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I like Palin, because of her Obama will win.
Posted by: Alex | October 16, 2008 1:23 PM
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Great Tuliplady-
Since you think a man who has sponsored over 400 bills since 1997 is lacking in basic leadership skills--
Please share with me Obama's political acomplishments that will convince me he is able to lead.
Posted by: Kimberly | October 16, 2008 1:21 PM
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Oh and Kimberly
I will defend my opinion without getting personal :)
Posted by: Tuliplady | October 16, 2008 1:13 PM
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Kimberly,
That to me was not leading a country, that was doing his job as a Senator.
I am talking about the presence not the past!
And no matter how you look at the debates, even the strongest believers in John McCain, his fellow republicans, are questioning his lack of leadership.
The only thing that is consistent in John McCain's campaign is the inconsistency.
And that is why I wrote my comment because, in my opinion, the last thing this country needs right now is a President that will let others tell him what to do and how to act.
It is truly a shame that John McCain has become what he always said he would fight against, a man that practices old politics from the past.
Posted by: Tuliplady | October 16, 2008 1:11 PM
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Tuliplady-
I'm sorry if you are mentally-challenged but I must correct you.
You fear "John McCain is not strong enough to be the leader of this country?"
Lady-- he has been a leader in this country for years. Where have YOU been?
Just look at bills McCain has sponsored that were cosponsored by others, and ultimately signed into law. Cosponsors of McCain bills include both Democrats and Republicans. Links go to the text of the bill as introduced by McCain:
S.161, a bill to provide for a land exchange in Arizona between the secretary of agriculture and a limited partnership, 109th Congress.
Cosponsors: one Republican.
S.579, a bill to reauthorize the National Transportation Safety Board, 108th Congress.
Cosponsors: two Republicans and two Democrats.
S.1354, a bill to amend the Communications Act of 1934 to allow for common carriers not subject to state commission jurisdiction, 105th Congress.
Cosponsors: two Republicans and two Democrats.
S.1364, a bill to eliminate unnecessary federal reports, 105th Congress.
Cosponsors: one Democrat.
S.2413, a bill prohibiting the transfer of land in a national forest in Arizona unless the conveyance was made to a certain town or otherwise authorized by an act of Congress, 105th Congress.
Cosponsor: one Republican.
And here’s a look at just a few of the bills McCain has recently sponsored. None were signed into law:
S.83, a bill to provide more security for rail transportation.
Cosponsors: two Democrats, one Independent and one Republican.
S.85, a bill to amend the Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act of 1968 to make clear that Indian tribes and territories can get grants to combat methamphetamine use.
Cosponsors: 11 Democrats and three Republicans.
S.192, Lobbying, Ethics and Earmarks Transparency and Accountability Act of 2007, which provides for transparency in lobbying activities.
Cosponsors: one Republican, one Democrat and one Independent.
S.166, Cell Phone Tax Moratorium Act of 2007, which restricts states from imposing a new tax on cell phone services.
Cosponsors: six Republicans and one Democrat.
According to GovTrack.us, McCain has sponsored 403 bills since Jan. 21, 1997.
Posted by: Kimberly | October 16, 2008 12:53 PM
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After watching all three of the debates I can't help but thinking that John McCain isn't capable of concentrating for the full 90 minutes that each debate lasted. In every one of them, he lost himself halfway through the debate. Although I am not sure if it is his opponent or the inability to deal with the stress, or maybe both, it tells me that John McCain is not strong enough to be the leader of this country. Further more his lack of discipline in running his campaign is not only worrisome, but it also pictures him as someone that has no clue how to deal with problems that come on his path. Sometimes it is good to take a good look at yourself and maybe wonder; when did I got lost?
Posted by: Tuliplady | October 16, 2008 12:38 PM
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Quite possibly, Joe the Plumber was a plant from the McCain camp. As buddy buddy as John McCain seems to be with Joe, it sure is suspect.
Possibly not, but I wouldn't put that past any politica.
Joe the Plumber was interviewed on NPR this morning and he seemed rather articulate. And told us his boy was getting a kick out of all the publicity.
What Joe and others are missing is that what the Obama tax plan will do is NOT to stop him from buying his plumbing business. With the cost of his loan for the business, and the other costs he would have his business would not make that threshold after the expenses.
So, in effect, Joe is a non-player on the tax increase playing field.
As are the 98% of Americans who don't reach that threshold after the taxes and other expenses are figured in.
So, the Republican scare tactics are, as usual, null & viod with regard to the American people.
Posted by: Harasho Puck. | October 16, 2008 12:14 PM
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FairBro-
You speak for most working Americans. I've shared your post with my close friends and they have emailed them to others.
Many seem to think there will be victory for one side and defeat for the other side after the election. I believe there is a huge divide between the blue and the red in America and the election will only deepen that divide.
Posted by: Jerry | October 16, 2008 12:14 PM
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I am writing in the name La Pequena Sarah Palin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VV8uEzGuvfc&eurl=http://buzzfeed.com/peggy/la-pequena-sarah-palin
not malicious, just funny.
Posted by: Write in | October 16, 2008 12:10 PM
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It was nice to see the actual exchange between Joe the Plumber and presidential contender Senator Obama. Two down to earth men discussing their views with no rancor. It's a shame that Senator McCain is not as able to do that, maybe because he was never a community organizer, but is rather a member of the elite.
Posted by: Nils | October 16, 2008 12:07 PM
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ARE YOU KIDDING ME? YOUR COMMENTS ARE ONE-SIDED.
THERE IS NO OBJECTIVITY IN THIS ARTICLE AT ALL!!
Posted by: Angela Smith | October 16, 2008 12:05 PM
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I hope there are a bunch of redneck, racist, right-wing nut jobs fleeing the country next year just like when the liberal idiots fled when Bush was re-elected to what has become one of the most embarrassing presidency terms ever.
Posted by: Cletis the Astronaut | October 16, 2008 12:03 PM
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Obama's parents met in a Russian language class in Hawaii. His childhood father figure was his grandfather's drinking buddy- American Communist Frank Davis. His twenty year mentor and pastor Jeremiah Wright is a known black liberation theology marxist. His fifteen year neighbors and friends are William Ayers and Bernardine Dorhn, founders of the 60s terrorist group Weathermen and unrepentant haters of America. Obama is a media creation. He has zero experience, zero accomplishments, and unlimited cash from suspect sources to be used to acquire the American presidency by any means (ACORN).
Joe Biden is a close friend of John McCain NOT Barack Obama. He can't count or be counted on:
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 12:01 PM
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The comments by FAIRBRO are incredible. Everyone should read the 'analysis' to understand the challenges we face and see how twisted logic can come from seeds of hatred. I'm angered and sad to read those kinds of posts. We haven't come far from 1861.
Posted by: Benjamin | October 16, 2008 11:57 AM
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Fairbro,
You write like a dyslexic child that cannot get a coherent sentence out without fumbling over your own words. Think, then type, then reread.
Posted by: Steve the Pirate | October 16, 2008 11:56 AM
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Boy McCain looked old and crotchety last night. And although I understand why he didn't do it, I really wanted Obama to say what 95% of all Americans were saying when he was asked whether Sarah Palin is qualified to be president. But he was polite and didn't say that she is the most ridiculous VP pick ever and she probably cost McCain the election. Talk about screwing up the first major decision of the presidency.
Posted by: Bob the Builder | October 16, 2008 11:53 AM
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To fairbro:
i am enjoying the coherency of your writing.
Posted by: Jevon | October 16, 2008 11:50 AM
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I thought that Obama answered the accusations/questions about his associations with shady peoples rather well.
Posted by: Gary the Blacksmith | October 16, 2008 11:47 AM
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Mr. Jacques Berlinerblau,
Thank you for another entertaining essay on the Presidential elections in what even Obama once characterised as the "silly season". Of course it is for all elections.
1. Last Debate: Avoiding God and Palin
A foreigner certainly knows the difference between the US and France. For one, the US have freedom fries, not French fries. And France only have frites.
Avoiding mentioning God and Palin in politics is a positive. It keeps religion out of politics and perhaps, forced candidates to focus on issues for once.
Not that the candidates did not get personal with one another in this last debate which can be measured by who is nastier and who is less, and the audience/voters personal taste on whether they love lowdown attacks or a classier approach.
Of course, it is obvious that Faith and Values politicking is geared to niche markets and marketing. In the good old days and in history books, it is called "divide and conquer". The British used it to good effect in their colonisation of African and Asian states.
The short term benefit to the British are apparent in being able to rule over different people by pitting one against the other, or in keeping people seperate by race and religion in letting them keep to their respective communities, and in positioning themself as the one and only who could bring peace and stability to myriad peoples under their realm.
2. The Unmentionable: Sarah Palin
Sarah Palin has been mentioned, discussed and debated incessantly since she was named as VP running mate of McCain. Need the candidates say anymore? It is not to the advantage of McCain to do so. And Obama has nothing more to add to what is already said on Palin. Everyone knows who McCain's "running mate" is, even in our neck of the woods - on what she said and did. Of course, it all emanated from the American media and globalised.
3. Obama's "eloquence"
Obama is eloquent in articulating what segments of the US populace want to hear said and to be done. So is Sarah Palin in her niched audience who found a voice in her saying what they wanted to be said and done.
Looking at the media feed on Obama's audience when he spoke, one can also posit that he is also a "rabble rounser" - in the sense that he evoke responses that is as enthusiastic as those of Palins's.
But, of course, the language of Palin's audience is different from Obama's even if both are borne out of anger and frustration, and laced with hope, but couched in differently flavoured languages.
As for the Maverick's "crafty" handlers, they did fail to persuade quite a number of Americans that Obama is "inexperienced" as much as Clinton's campaign against him in the Democratic race had. Perhaps, they do not know when to undertake a political shot in the bow, a direct hit, a carpet bombing, a smart targetting.
If a leader fail to articulate what the people wanted, well, whether we agree with them or not, Obama and Palin did reach out and find a response in their respective "niche markets". Or, for that matter, Hitler. They all galvanised people and this is, of course, important to mobilise their support - give the people what they want. For better or for worse in politics.
4. The Reaction Shot War
In politics, a reaction shot is sometimes worse for the fact that one is not proactive but reactive and reduced to tearing one's opponents stance, policy, and, as a last resort, to question his/her character, ethics, values, and minor stuff spurned into major issues of character and judgement etc.
Of course, politicians are also the best actors in the world and should be accorded a special Academy Award Oscar for Best Political Performance. It would seem that McCain's stage and staged performance is not persuading many. He does seem to be over-acting rather than reacting.
5. Joe the Plumber
Ah..."Joe the Plumber" now to add to my collection of American people terminolgy apart from "Joe/Jane Six Pack" and "Rosie the Riveter". How about the term, "man in the street"? Ironic that we should be further niching people when we are so aware of politicians niching their political base and support. But, then again, it is politicians who set the tone of the debate, who set policies, and we are all just reacting.
And by the way, a foreigner is always dazzled, impressed and entertained by the fancy footwork and fingerwork of the Harlem Globetrotters. But one knows that there is always an easier way to get the ball in the basket - run, avoid opponents as quickly as possible without all that spectacular dribblings around them, and shot straight.
McCain's team is no Harlem Globetrotters. They cannot even hold a ball without fumbling on their own, and then to call foul against the opponent.
Thank you and regards
J
Posted by: Jihadist | October 16, 2008 11:44 AM
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McCain is too old to be President. I think Obama didn't want to attack an old man out of respect. McCain looks mean and I know that he is uneducated,got kicked out of high school and graduated 5th from the bottom of his class at the Navy Academy. Do we want his to represent the Free World? He mumbles like an old man and one side of his face is twisted like he had a stroke. He might have one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel. Now Palin-- do we really want Red Neck Trailer Trash in the White House or at the Vice President Residence. What will First Dude do in the Nation's Capital. He can't hunt, or race cars. You know you can get in lots of trouble in the DC Area. Palin needs a Nanny and someone to teach them a value system, for her girls, tell them to keep their feet on the ground and their dress tails down. For her son, stop doing drugs.
Posted by: Mirinda Jackson | October 16, 2008 11:41 AM
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Mission Accomplished!
Posted by: beatupfromfeetup | October 16, 2008 11:31 AM
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In response to the title of the article and lack of mention in the debate, let me just say:
RELIGION AND POLITICS SHOULD BE SEPARATE!
the movie 'Religulous' brings up some interesting points.
Posted by: Bill | October 16, 2008 11:29 AM
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To TOM:
I am NOT manipulating numbers. Intelligent people, who can see through BO's slimy verborhea with his numbers: "95% will not get a tax rise, 92% this that, blah, blah blah," he just makes it up as he goes along.
Obama himself says that he will base this his tax boost, the biggest tax increase in WORLD HISTORY, on those making more than $250,000 on GROSS income, NOT net income, as you claim. So you are wrong, there as well as everywhere else. You, like Obama, like Bill Clinton who redefined "LYING" into something chic and fashionable in left-wing circles, called SPINNING, are intelligent enough to know this.
"...that 12% social security tax you quote is incorrect also since if he really did make $300,000, the social security is only charged on the first $94,200. So he is getting away with murder there (even if he pays both halves...
Tommie, another series of flat-out SPINS/LIES. Obama has promised to raise the Social Security tax so it applies to an UNLIMITED amount of income. So this guy would be paying $36,000 every single year of his employed life, or close to a MILLION Dollars over his lifetime, and what after? After he retires, instead of the $20,000/month he would get if he had been able to invest it, he will receive $900 a month.
What a SICK JOKE these wild-spending Democrats have made of our economy. Now they want to provide free 5-bedroom, 4-bath mansions for people too lazy to take a job, instead of admitting the truth about the colossal failure of the biggest bankruptcies of all time, Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. These government agencies ruined our economy, because they were forced by the Congressional Black Caucus and ACORN and "progressive" Democrats to use "affirmative action" to give mortgages to unqualified applicants.
So the RICH guy will receive $900 a month from Social Security after he has "contributed" (ha-ha, "forced under threat of prison to "contribute") a million dollars during his lifetime.
You call this getting a pension of $900/month (versus the free-market pension of $20,000/month) "getting away with murder." You're a complete idiot.
Social Security tax has been raised 12 times.
Each time it was hailed as the final solution; it was supposed to solve the "problem."
Each time it FAILED to solve the problem. Because each time it failed to ADDRESS the problem: Congressional Democrats stealing the money from Social Security and spending it on everything under the sun, running our country into trillions of dollars of debt.
But the Messiah, B. Hussein Obama, THIS TIME, when his Holiness raises the SS tax to a job-stifling, economy-crippling all-time high, that will surely solve the problem.
America, if you elect this corrupt, southside Chicago rabble-rousing racist to the presidency, you can kiss goodbye to free and fair elections because of BO's support and forced taxpayer-support of the racist, corrupt ACORN which is committing massive voter fraud now and will pile more on its manure pile of fraud in the big cities on November 4th.
You can kiss goodbye to the pursuit of happiness, your right to start your own little company, your own farm, your own enterprise, your own real-estate agency, becoming an independent accountant, a dentist, an electrical contractor, a painter, a landscaper, a doctor.
BO will be there as you lose your capitalist economy, because BO thinks he is God and will communize our country. If you are willing to stick your neck out and make an extra dollar, BO will seize it and, keep some for his bureaucrats, and give the rest to ACORN.
The US will become a third-world country.
If lazy-bum socialists like you think you can steal my hard-earned money from me, and steal elections using massive voter fraud, ad-infinitum into the future, then you are in for a rude awakening. The people who don't agree with your ideas will simply cease working, depriving you of money to tax/steal. Why would they work, when there is no way to profit from it?
Obama, with his race-based philosophy, will sow the seeds of hatred and division so deep, that parts of the US will probably secede, maybe Texas, Virginia, etc. Who the hell needs a racist, communist president, a $10,000,000,000,000 debt?
Posted by: fairbro | October 16, 2008 11:20 AM
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"Let's see:
Joe the plumber $250k a year.
25% tax = $62,500
35% tax = $87,500 balance = $162,500. It seems at this rate Joe still has incentive to be his own master and would be able to help pay for universal health care for all Americas. He might even have enough left to fund that nascar fantasy that has been gnawing away at his brain."
Gee, aren't you a nice guy to figure out how Joe should spend his money..
I suggest he finally take his family on that trip to Ireland he's been thinking about.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 11:17 AM
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joe the plumber is a staunch republican.
Posted by: john the carpenter | October 16, 2008 11:15 AM
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Debates do not delve into backgrounds and are too short to get into the complexities of the issues.
Before November read background and issue reviews on the candidates to become the best voter possible.
e.g.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Barack_Obama
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Biden
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_John_McCain
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Palin
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | October 16, 2008 11:13 AM
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Lets see-
"If more middle-class become poor, Obama will win.
If more poors become middle-class, McCain will win."
So-
If more American voters want a hand up, McCain will win.
If more American voters have their hands out, Obama will win.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 11:11 AM
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Let's see:
Joe the plumber $250k a year.
25% tax = $62,500
35% tax = $87,500 balance = $162,500. It seems at this rate Joe still has incentive to be his own master and would be able to help pay for universal health care for all Americas. He might even have enough left to fund that nascar fantasy that has been gnawing away at his brain.
Posted by: tds-independent | October 16, 2008 11:08 AM
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Spreading wealth is nothing new. It has been practiced somewhere else.
Spreading wealth is neither bad nor good. It can not go extreme either way.
If more middle-class become poor, Obama will win.
If more poors become middle-class, McCain will win.
Sounds ridiculous?
Keep in mind that it is all about individual or group interest.
Many great ones have come and gone. No one has ever changed such mind.
So following God rather than being God.
Well, in fast-paced growing global economy today,
Americans should be given more choices.
Immigration never means one-way.
Posted by: jy2008 | October 16, 2008 11:05 AM
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Religion really IS a purely personal conviction. It should NOT be used as a sledge hammer or be on campaign buttons. One can "know you by your fruits."
One of the political parties seems to be about protecting those acquisitors who want-and seem to need more wealth, regardless. The other party is portrayed as having their hands out for a share of this good life-reportedly without earning it. If someone is not contributing, it is our "call" to find ways to equip others to be useful.
According to the Good Book, "the haves have always had to do for the have nots." Hasn't it been said that It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to get to paradise? WHY? Is it not our privilege to use blessings for the good of mankind? This would not have to be legislated if it was regularly and willingly a part of all of our lives. Ways must be erected that we trust, that's our challenge. Can this be done?
Posted by: A. Sale | October 16, 2008 10:52 AM
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It pays to stay COOL. Poor McCain with his sneers, grimaces, blinking eyes, gestures. To me it showed a petulance that we all have come to know. Was on the border of voting, not voting, this debate may make me make up my mind.
Posted by: joan ca | October 16, 2008 10:51 AM
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Poor Poor Obama:
If he becomes the American president- the republican dominated businesses will leave because he overtaxes them and the republican dominated military will leave because they cannot serve under him as their commander and chief.
You American democrats are fools. You should have nominated Hillary Clinton, but now its too late.
Posted by: PENTIMENTO | October 16, 2008 10:49 AM
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REPUBLICAN INTERNET POSTERS HELP MCCAIN LOSE ELECTION
Just wading through the comments on several sites, one is struck by the glaring contrast between normal people and the stupefyingly ignorant right wing lunatics who post their hilariously transparent talking point propaganda in all caps, screaming incoherently about Ayers while ignoring McCain's pal Liddy (terrorist) and his running mate Palin being married to a *separatist* whose party she told to "keep up the good work". The fact that their candidate brought up ACORN at the debate when he himself was a keynote speaker for them in 2006 just shows what a dishonest campaign McCain has run. He and his VP have been banking on the knee jerk stupidity of the far right base, and guess what? Ignorant whackjobs is all they've got left. Now that same base is busily flooding the Internet with their incredible stupidity for all to see, ensuring that their candidate joins their mournful march to the tar pits where they belong. Awesome!
Posted by: canadian bacon | October 16, 2008 10:44 AM
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McCain is not only angry, but sarcastic and demeaning. He focuses on the negative because he has nothing New to offer the American people. I do hear about Small Business Tax breaks, but if the average citizen can't afford to buy things from the small business-it does not matter how big the tax cuts are! His healthcare plan is also scary. Too many if, ands, or buts to it and the citizen again ends up paying for everything. He talks about the citizens "keeping their money," and you know, I believe our current President said the same thing in his campaign. Is it working now? Have you been holding onto your money? McCain is not a solution to our problems.
Posted by: shannon | October 16, 2008 10:41 AM
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Obama shows the signs of a true leader. Intelligent, honest, mature, positive and deliberate.
Mccain is an embarassing candidate, reminiscent of Bob Dole, not a strong leader- in fact seems happiest isolated, who is often angry, impulsive, dishonest and over critical. Worse, his age has clearly caught up with him. Aside from being elderly, he seems to be showing the early warning signs of senility.
The GOP hasn't nominated a worthy presidential candidate since Reagan, even he was over-rated and inept in his second term, far from the heroic leader that they like to portray him as. The party's future depends on them developing good moderate conservatives (not actors!), that certainly does not include Sarah Palin. If I were her, I'd be worried about getting reelected as governor.
Posted by: R | October 16, 2008 10:39 AM
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David Axelrod must have told Obama to just stand still and take hits since he never came out of his corner. McCain seems to have connected well and responded quickly to the few lame Obama attacks. While the debate changed few minds at this late stage, certainly it will be a really close race ... even with the ACORN votes.
Posted by: OIFVetForMcCain | October 16, 2008 10:38 AM
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You are simply nuts.
Posted by: TR | October 16, 2008 10:38 AM
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McCain had the nerve, or should we say, the lack of conscience or stupidity, to use Bush neoCon tactics. From the sound of his attacks on Obama you think he was trying to start another unnecessary war only this time against "terrorist" Obama rather than Iraq.. McCain is a despicable neoCon who uses neoCon tactics to further his agenda, then to cover his tactics he blames Obama with the tired worn out excuse I acted unconscionably because the devil -Obama- made me do it.
From the bottom of his graduating class, against a Harvard and Princeton Obama STAR the difference is startling.
These Despicable neoCon Tactics identify the people we do not need in government or big business.
Any person who purposely uses misinformation, misrepresentation, distortion, exaggeration, prevarication, equivocation, ridicule, treachery calumny and lies to further their agenda.
McCain is a loser.... and he IS no maverick, thats a lie, he IS another neoCon, another BUSH....
Obama is the better man by a mile,
I don't Trust neoCons =McCaine- no how no way.
Posted by: Rich | October 16, 2008 10:37 AM
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What's wrong with the Reverend Wright? I agree, god damm America for the very issues he stated. Most americans never even bothered to veiw the entire speech. It actually was very insightful and not at all unreasonable. By the way, he's your god - not mine!.
Posted by: tds-independent | October 16, 2008 10:34 AM
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What's with this Joe the plumber representing the average American nonsense?
"I wonder if Joe might represent McCain's best (and last) chance of getting on-message about the economy."
The median HOUSEHOLD income in 2007 was about $50k. I doubt if it is even that now and a siginifcant proportion of the population are nearer $20k.
Joe was fussing about losing a little more of his $250k a year. He may represent the Republican dream (fast becoming fantasy) but it ends there.
Posted by: Graham | October 16, 2008 10:26 AM
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"So, You're saying the bulk of the charity has come from - and will continue to be from private charity?. Another misguided thought! It's your tax dollare at work."
No. This is my tax dollar at work:
"Hospital that doubled Michelle Obama's salary in 2005 got $1,000,000 earmark from Obama in 2006
Let's see. In 2005 Obama's wife gets her salary more than doubled, for some reason, and next thing you know, in 2006, Obama lands them a huge $1 million dollar earmark for them. IMO, this is worse than the Wright story."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5069842
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 10:25 AM
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So, You're saying the bulk of the charity has come from - and will continue to be from private charity?. Another misguided thought! It's your tax dollare at work.
Posted by: tds-independent | October 16, 2008 10:17 AM
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I do so wish that you would not denegrade the good name of the Harlem Globetrotters by associating them with this horrible group of political tacticians running the McCain campaign. Lest you forget, they are the same gang mob that dragged Sen. McCain under the bus and through the mud while bold faced lying about him during the 2000 election.
If these individuals did not serve in politics and obscure from view the true John McCain, we might all have benefitted from a less jaded and damning last 3 months of slanders and lies about Sen. Obama. Goodness, we might've had a truly fair competition. By the way, your article was ridiculous and your href link is broken.
Posted by: D | October 16, 2008 10:16 AM
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"tds says: Let's come up with some good ideas and work hard for the good of everyone."
Look at Katrina. The free charities did an outstanding job and are still quietly working there. The government (local, state, and federal) fell on their @sses.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 10:11 AM
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"There is no reason to ever feel sorry for the people who are working at this level. They already have everything geared in their favor."
So Barack Obama will tax our American businesses until their owners are forced to move to countries with more lenient taxes?
If Obama is our president- the American "pie" he plans to take a big piece of will suddenly become a tartlet.
Posted by: JOSEPH | October 16, 2008 10:07 AM
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tds says: Let's come up with some good ideas and work hard for the good of everyone.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 10:05 AM
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tds-independent says resources are finite- but forgets ideas and hard work are not..
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 10:00 AM
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Karen, That clip is nothing but a right wing scare tactic, anyone who studies the issues can see that. It's simply not true that the pie is an "ocean". Resources are finite, if someone takes, someone else has to give. It would help if some americans would take their faces out of the feedsack long enough to see their neighbors could use some.
Posted by: tds-independent | October 16, 2008 9:56 AM
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A funny thought, is Palin meant to be McCain's sideshow? Something about her reminds me of the type of assorted crazies who lined up to be the Californian Governor a few years ago. Circus acts etc.... I couldn't imagine how scared I would feel if emotional angry man McCain became president but if Palin was to step in those shoes well that would be a very scary situation indeed...... !!!!
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Posted by: Bill | October 16, 2008 9:54 AM
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To FAIRBRO
I am afraid you are using the same unfair math as is so typical of Conservatives. You start with the doctor making $300,000. Now, as I am sure you know, before they figure out the tax you owe, you deduct the cost of doing business such as the insurance, the cost of help, the rent, etc. The tax is on the PROFIT -- what you actually get. If I am in the business of selling pencils and I pay 6 cents for a pencil and sell it for 10 cents, then I am only taxed on the 4 cent profit. And, in fact, I can deduct my overhead. So you talk as if this hypothetical doctor grosses $300,000 and has all these expenses and then is taxed on the $300,000. Similarly the plumber. If he is being taxed on $250,000, then I assume that is what he is netting -- i.e., his take home pay. Read any 1040 form and you will see where all of these overhead items are subtracted before the tax is calculated on the remainder.
BUT there is an unfairness here. That business owner IS allowed to deduct the cost of tickets to athletic events and taking clients to dinner, etc. so that he does NOT pay for them from his disposable income and he gets them tax free because they are counted as business expenses. Believe me, the averaging working guy would LOVE to have these perks. And if they were done away with, there would be many empty luxury suites available at various stadia.
There is no reason to ever feel sorry for the people who are working at this level. They already have everything geared in their favor. And, by the way, that 12% social security tax you quote is incorrect also since if he really did make $300,000, the social security is only charged on the first $94,200. So he is getting away with murder there (even if he pays both halves, he still is paying only 3.89% compared to the 6.2% the rest of us pay). In fact, if we would remove this cap, we would easily solve the social security problem. Of course the right wing would cry "you are raising taxes" even though in fact, we would only be making everyone pay the same. If I had my way, social security would be a progressive tax -- then it would be fair.
But at any rate, if you are going to make an argument with numbers, please do not assume that we readers are not intelligent enough to see through the way you are manipulating them.
Posted by: Tom | October 16, 2008 9:48 AM
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Thankfully we are past the time when campaign gimmickry, gingerbread men, and upsidedown cakes have enough time to bake. If and when they would come out of the RNC, they would be seen for the dough balls they are. Thus, we will be saved from Joe the P. and First Dufus in the cockfights and gladiator cage arenas that the Grand Ole Partee rallies have become. Ah, Party of Lincoln where are your glories of yesteryear?
Posted by: boomerscoutofamerica | October 16, 2008 9:43 AM
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No debate was as heated and confrontational as this. McCain showed some nasty sides to his personality while Obama remained calm and cool like a President should be.
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Posted by: Bill | October 16, 2008 9:38 AM
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I am pro-choice but get a life guys.. There wont be much to life for with someone like as old and senile as MCcain in roost and brainless Palin on side. She scares the heck out of me. Only common ground that she and I share is Pro-choice. My fear is that if MCCain health fails and if Sarah becomes the de Facto president... I am not sure all my prayers will help our country and my children future is doomed. I will vote for Obama just cos he has a better team.
Posted by: Gina Mendes | October 16, 2008 9:36 AM
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I can't imagine why any woman would vote for McCain. He didn't choose Palin because she was the best qualified Rep. and one who was best for the country. He used her to try and energize his base and she did that but she sure isn't presidental material and everyone knows it. Is that putting his country first? Obama is a family man who loves his wife and girls. He is concerned and cares about women issues. McCain has used women all his life. He left his crippled first wife for a rich little drug user so that tells me a lot about his character. He says one thing and does another. He said he would not run a negative campain and then sends Palin out to do the dirty work. What a guy! Really someone I can respect. There is absolutely nothing he wouldn't do to win this election even though he has no idea what he would do if he did. Thank Goodness Obama will soon be the president so we can get on with healing this country.
Posted by: Judy | October 16, 2008 9:36 AM
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McCain lost it, he looked a nervous, emotional and often seemed to be a childish angry man.
Posted by: Bill | October 16, 2008 9:35 AM
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The "first dude" is one of the scarier aspsects of a possible Palin vice-presidency.
Posted by: Marilyn Bryan | October 16, 2008 9:33 AM
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Hey Tom-
If you want Obama to take your hard-earned money and spend it on his government programs- be sure to vote in a few weeks.
But don't be confused about what Obama's goals for America are. His wife has been slung under the bus because she "spoke too much".
Listen to this flashback of Michelle and ask yourself- do you want four years of the Obamas??
Posted by: KAREN | October 16, 2008 9:27 AM
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I found the lack of pandering to a god very satisfying. As it should be,-issues- not god bless a nation that is already awash in blessings.
Posted by: tds-independent | October 16, 2008 9:27 AM
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Roe v Wade will remain the law of the land. Pro and con discussions regarding the morality of abortion notwithstanding. A woman's right in this regard should remain inviolable.
Organized religion could of course do much more to reduce abortion numbers by supporting sex education and widely available conventional birth control methods, including the 'morning after ' pill.
Do they do this? Of course not....instead, they ineffectively attempt to anathematize abortion.
Abortion should certainly not be a topic of discussion at this point in the final Presidential debate - there are much more pressing national issues at hand.
___________________
- fortunately this topic did not enter the discussion and McCain was soundly defeated by Obama. We can look forward to a much more balanced Supreme Court in the future with Obama as President.
Posted by: realist | October 16, 2008 9:26 AM
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To Anonymous
I DO believe that we should give to the poor. But in a large country like this, it is impossible for a working individual to have any idea who is the most in need. Thus, I trust that the government has the people to do this much more efficiently. For example, our tax money goes to help the poor through Medicade. I could not contribute enough to help a single person get a needed operation. But with my money pulled with everyone else's, then some needy person can get the medical care needed. Granted that the present occupant of the White House messed up Katrina, I look at many other disasters and realize that by having our tax money, the government was able to move in and help. I agree with Lincoln that the government is of, by, and for the people and I see it as a 21st century way of dispersing charity in my name to those in parts of the country I could not otherwise reach. And by voting for those who will do the most for the poor, I have a say in where it will go but I am not so provincial as to only see the need in my neighborhood when there may be far more need elsewhere.
If there is any problem here, I see it as the GOP is favoring the rich and the Democrats the middle class, but what we really need is a party which would favor the poor -- those to whom God has directed us.
Posted by: TomfromNJ1 | October 16, 2008 9:25 AM
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JIM SIMPSON: (says)
"Joe the Plumber, if he makes in excess of $250K a year, would be a rare success story for blue collars today. If he's buying a plumbing business with that promise, he'd better refocus on his due diligence rather that the taxes he believes he'll pay..."
What smells about BO's "plan" to tax the rich (those making over $250,000 a year) is that it is a LIE. Like everything else this slimy guy says, it slips through and slides around common sense.
Take a aneasthesiologist, who is making $300,000 a year. He has to pay $100,000 a year in insurance, and then 10% state taxes, and both sides of Social Security (being self-employed he pays 12% SS tax). And he pays unemployment tax, again doubled, and he pays local and state and federal business taxes. He has to pay rent for his office. Maybe he has a part-time secretary. Triple times the salary is the expense for help.
So this RICH plumber making $250,000 a year is probably bringing home $3000 a month, and THEN he has to pay his mortgage, his car payment, utilities, his phone bill, his insurance, and he also has to pay property, state and federal taxes on this net income that he brings home. And hope to have enough left over for groceries.
So watch BO, the race-based political hack from corrupt southside Chicago while he lies to you, tilting his head to the side like a con-man, when he says the plumber, the doctor, the accountant, etc., are supposed to "share" like good comrade communists.
Posted by: Fairbro | October 16, 2008 9:24 AM
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Well written article. Joe the plumber can't possibly staunch the cesspool the repubs have put us in. No liquid drano or anything else can possibly make us sympathetic when we are talking about a quarter of a million dollars PLUS will have us getting out our violins as Rome (aka USA) burns.......Plus, McCain relegated us to the outhouse with his choice of Sara--unbelievably incompetent---Palin and her host of troubles, secrets and future troubles...we haven't heard anything yet, methinks. What an insult, last night in the debate he said he's "proud of her" WHAT????? In this league...maybe the bush league, ok? Anyway, I think mcCain should take whatever respect he has left --from anyone---and just get out of this intact and let the country move on.
Posted by: nassie | October 16, 2008 9:21 AM
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Tom Tom-
You say "I am amazed on a religious website to read people comparing the "share the wealth" idea to negative motivations."
Don't you know the difference between giving charity from your wealth to those you decide are in need and the government taking away your wealth to spend as they decide.
Has the government ever spent your money wisely??
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 9:14 AM
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Looks like the rightwing wackos are out in force, now that Obama has all but sewed up the election.
God how they hate the idea of a moderate BLACK President!
Instead, they project the features of their own disordered personalities on Obama, the 'socialist racist, muslim, blah blah blah'. Their own hate-filled and stunted personalities are very much in evidence as they spew their vile invectives.
What a bunch of fruitcakes. The guy is as American as apple pie, and clearly favors the interests of that great Middle Class that is so quickly disappearing in the USA. Why resent the fact that the guy has a Harvard education?
Your own beloved George W. Bush has a Harvard MBA his own self - of course he's white, rich, and his dad paid damned good money for that MBA! And then he went and bollixed up the government and turned the damned thing upside down and ass backwards - and now Obama has got to clean up George's many messes.
Too bad the BLACK guy gets that very dirty job, but someone has to do it. McPalin would only make it so much worse!!
Joe the Plummer is all of us, except plumbers make better money than most - but typically less than 250K unless they're small business owners with employees.
Obama is the only one that really gives a damn about Joe Six Pack - because to McCain enterprises, Joe is just a damned good customer and very necessary to preserving the wife's family beer fortune.
Winning is and always has been McCain's only goal - after that, he never had a clue........
A very good thing that bit of misfortune won't be coming to pass.
Posted by: pundit | October 16, 2008 9:13 AM
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It was sickening to watch Obama constantly laughing-off serious questions that McCain raised. Does Obama really understand how serious this job is, and just how dangerous this world has become? He just doesn't seem to get it.
Posted by: Independent in FL | October 16, 2008 9:10 AM
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McCain is right about class warfare, if things continue on this trickle down from the rich fantasy that he wants to maintain - We just may have our own Bastille Day here in the USA. The reason the rich (Republicans) don't like France is because the cut the heads off people just like them. Sounds like a good plan to me - when do we get started.
Posted by: MSanders | October 16, 2008 9:08 AM
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McCain is a scary,rude,man.Joe the plumber just FYI you'll be wishing that you had voted for Obama,because you won't be making over $250,000 a year because if McCain gets in the White House you can pretty much count on people not hiring you because they won't beable to afford you.The economy will be worse do to McCain wants to continue the war plus if he gets his way he'll have some more wars,remember,(bomb,bomb Iran.)
Posted by: Gail | October 16, 2008 9:06 AM
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RW:
Remember when the people in NYC went to work one morning in September and never came home?
Since you don't like killing and war- will you please go to these people who want to destroy us and "create honest people that believe in the sanctity and preciousness of all human life"?
Of course Daniel Pearl already tried to speak with them but he lacks your deep insight into human nature..
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 9:05 AM
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I am amazed on a religious website to read people comparing the "share the wealth" idea to negative motivations. I know not about other religions, but I know that this principle is the backbone of Christianity. When asked, Jesus told the rich to "sell what you have and GIVE to the poor." And He repeated this over and over. As Mother Theresa pointed out in Philadelphia in 1976, He did not say to make them work for it (which is justice, a fine virtue, but "the greatest of these is charity") but GIVE it and she pointed out "Who among us has anything that is not given by God." Both of these candidates purport to be Protestants and so they should be familiar with the idea that heaven is not earned, but a GIFT of God freely GIVEN. And I believe that is how He expects us to treat one another.
The right wing acts as if it is immoral to tax, but I argue that it is our obligation to pay our taxes. As in when asked about paying taxes, Jesus said "render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God, the things that are God's"
And one need go no farther that the Acts of the Apostles to see that the early church was founded on what are now condemned as socialistic principles. I refer anyone who questions this to the story of Ananias and Saphira.
If we would only restore the fair rates that we had before Reagan cut the rate for the rich drastically and lumped people into far fewer categories, we might have a much fairer notion of sharing the wealth.
As for this Joe guy they kept talking about, I have no sympathy for the poor mouthing of a person who is making a quarter of a million dollars. The "average Joe" makes nowhere near this. People like McCain have no concept of the number of people who are trying to live on $20,000 a year and who pay 6.2% of their salary for FDIC taxes whereas since our unfair tax system charges this man who makes $250,000 pays only 2.3% (and we won't even mention the much smaller percentage charged the multimillionaire athletes, business people, rock stars, etc.) and even if being self-employed, he pays both parts, he still is paying only 4.6%. And then he has the audacity to complain that on some other tax he must pay more. I am afraid I cannot feel sorry for him. But if all the people making over 1/4 million dollars vote for McCain and the rest vote for Obama, Obama will be the next president. Fortunately, we live in a country where the majority rules.
Posted by: TomfromNJ1 | October 16, 2008 9:04 AM
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RW: "Why do right wing Republican's so value the life of an unborn baby yet seem to have absolutely no problem with eighteen and nineteen year old kids being killed and mangled in unnecessary wars, and even less concern for the thousands of lives lost by the innocent victims Iraq? I guess the people killed there are just a cost of doing business for the so called religious right."
Babies are not tools: those enlisted into the US Military ARE...they are PROPERTY of the US GOVERNMENT. that is what they signed on for: CHOSE...not simply for a paid Education or free Training in a field. Freedom is NEVER free. Lives in IRAQ lost?...some of the results of a War in IRAQ. Was the war Just? IS it really a war? who's to say what's really going on....terrorism, drama, plain business, or a much larger theater of the game RISK.
Posted by: Jevon | October 16, 2008 8:59 AM
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Why do right wing Republican's so value the life of an unborn baby yet seem to have absolutely no problem with eighteen and nineteen year old kids being killed and mangled in unnecessary wars, and even less concern for the thousands of lives lost by the innocent victims Iraq? I guess the people killed there are just a cost of doing business for the so called religious right.
I still can't figure out how all of this happened. When I was a kid growing up almost all of the church leaders were against killing and especially against killing innocents in war. Now those on the right turn a blind eye to it. My belief about how religion can play an important role in our society is to help create honest people that believe in the sanctity and preciousness of all human life.
If religious people on the right attending McCain events were taught that honesty is a high priority in their lives they would be able to see the smears of the McCain campaign as the lies that they are, and not start shouting "off with Obama's Head" and "kill him" as they have repeatedly at recent campaign events. These people are blind followers with mob mentalities, not intelligent people thinking for themselves. The reason that McCain didn't bring up religion is two fold. First of all there is no evidence that he has ever been a religious man and secondly the behavior of the religious right at his campaign events this week scared him heck out of him. Just go back and take a look at McCain's face when he had to take the microphone away from the lady that was spewing all of the hate about Obama. It bordered on fear and a feeling of what am I doing hear. While I don't believe all of the heroic things John McCain takes credit for one thing I know for sure is that John McCain better than almost anyone alive understands what an angry mod is capable of. I am sure that he was having flash backs to that mob that beat him, kicked him, and spit on him after being pulled from a lake in Hanoi. I am sure that what his campaign and Sarah Palin are doing hit home right at that exact moment. I think he looked into that crowd and saw the devil at work.
Posted by: RW | October 16, 2008 8:52 AM
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As I've been reviewing commentary from this debate it occurs many have missed the key factor which is that Obama played to the "95%" (maybe pander is a better word) while the other guy played to the "5%"...or at least he never cleared the air on exactly what percentage he was advocating for. In court, the winning team almost always focuses on the key elements to win, which is what Obama did in this debate. He went after voters. No corporation votes so although advocating for business is necessary, it appears to actual voters to be insensitive in these personally challenging times. Sorry folks, but thats the way it is. Obama scored big points with a lot of swing and sway last night...the other guy just looked out of touch.
Posted by: Jim Simpson | October 16, 2008 8:52 AM
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Sonia Kermaz:
Anonymous...
I'm comparing the reproductive systems and reproductive choices of fleas and humans.
In an overpopulated planet, the choice isn't to murder or not to murder humans, the choice is how, when and why. I prefer family planning, including abortion, to war, starvation, and disease. It's less messy and cruel.
I read this and sum it up to: Lesser of two wrongs. sure sacrifice one instead of many... but many seems to get the job done far far more efficiently. then i see the words: choice, how, when and why. abortion is a choice, war is sorta a choice depending on the circumstances, starvation is also sorta a choice, and disease is mostly natural...not really a choice if it's an elaborate disease. Family planning... you plan and then enact. but when a mistake is made, a natural mistake based upon a multitude of choices of preventative measures, or NONE, then you can rewrite the family planner or erase it so easily. to me this is indicative of a blurred sense of right and wrong. there is nothing..."There is no good, Sonia. There is no evil. There is only flesh."
Posted by: Jevon | October 16, 2008 8:52 AM
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Sonia said-
"I prefer family planning, including abortion, to war, starvation, and disease. It's less messy and cruel."
Then please factor in an exponentially growing religion that requires their women to produce a child a year and then encourages those children to strap on bombs to blow themselves and other innocents up in honor of their supreme being.
Life is messy and cruel.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 8:51 AM
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Posted on October 16, 2008 08:15
Sonia Kermaz:
The difference between a human and a flea is that the human can control the number of offspring it produces. Women aren't God's fleas.
WOW! i'm assuming this is some rationalization in support of abortion and rejecting the choking words of religion... interesting, BUT, there must be rules drawn as a line in the sand. Pro Choice should remain a dark little secret in a closet with a woman-in-need rusty coathanger, some basic internet instructions and determination. It does not ever need to be in the limelight that a woman casually, or with great trouble, terminated a pregnancy as a public service. a clinic just gives ANTI-abortionists a place to direct their anger.
Posted by: Jevon | October 16, 2008 8:43 AM
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Too bad the antiabortionist movement is also radically oppossed to contraception and for abstinence only education. More civilized countries have a much lower abortion rate than ours. Maybe Palin can take these people back to Alaska...secede from the union with those nutty Alaskan Independence Party friends of hers and take the morons like Bush with her.
Posted by: GG | October 16, 2008 8:41 AM
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Anonymous...
I'm comparing the reproductive systems and reproductive choices of fleas and humans.
In an overpopulated planet, the choice isn't to murder or not to murder humans, the choice is how, when and why. I prefer family planning, including abortion, to war, starvation, and disease. It's less messy and cruel.
Posted by: Sonia Kermaz | October 16, 2008 8:39 AM
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Joe the Plumber, if he makes in excess of $250K a year, would be a rare success story for blue collars today. If he's buying a plumbing business with that promise, he'd better refocus on his due diligence rather that the taxes he believes he'll pay. In this economy, and given the "best case scenario" small business sellers present to a potential buyer, Obama would have been smarter to suggest that Joe would probably end up benefitting more from his tax plan than McCains.
Posted by: Jim Simpson | October 16, 2008 8:31 AM
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Ok, people say, yet again, Obama wins the another debate. i say: look again. Obama was NOT comfortable...that grimacing face, barely tightened, forcibly contorted to mask the emotions ready to lash out...i got that simply by looking up periodically from carving a pumpkin with my son. People give props to Obama keeping focused on the issues of Economy...i say so what: it's there and isn't going anywhere and not a word either says or, i use this term loosely, "commits" to will magically change a damn thing. Personality, morality, experience and a SLEW of other factors are the driving force behind a picture perfect statesman and the pictures that can be repainted by the media. Someone said the "A" word at sometime: Assasination, and though it was not directed at Obama it likely WILL BE at some point. Sad but true but i tend to notice the silence of ALL the real threatening groups of individuals...only do we hear about some kid in Florida or some random person in Maine...but not an utterance from a real threat. that is something worth noting. it's the quiet ones that one should worry about. this election is MUCH more than meets the eye. Fact: Palin is just as qualified as any of the three other participants. NONE are BUSH. we've had men at the top since day one and we've been through countless ups and downs...as emotional as women ARE that alone would be a real change for the USA. Religion? some believe it and some think it " a crutch for the weak "...best to not lock horns with such a touchy issue.
Posted by: Jevon | October 16, 2008 8:29 AM
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OK-
Obama is a marxist and racist. The end product of twenty years of Black Liberation Theology.
How will America survive four years of his "leadership"?
God help us.
Posted by: Janet | October 16, 2008 8:25 AM
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Sonia Kermaz:
You are a woman who compares her children to fleas? A flea knows better than to kill its children. Maybe you should learn to cross your legs and quit avocating murder.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 8:18 AM
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BO says he will drastically increase government funding for the Small Business Administration.
Any white male who has, in the past 20 years, applied for a loan from the SBA, knows that the SBA's policy is to make loans and grants only to minorities and women. White males are purposely, 100% excluded from consideration.
B. Hussein O. has always been a racist, practices racism in his proposed programs, and if elected, will be our first openly racist president.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 8:16 AM
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Zyskandar- I believe you are right.
I clearly heard Obama say he wants to raise taxes last night. And I heard him tell Joe the plumber he wants to "spread the wealth".
The man is a marxist. Socialism is a proven oppressor and will destroy the American's right to live free. We need to restore capitalism ASAP.
Posted by: Jon | October 16, 2008 8:15 AM
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The difference between a human and a flea is that the human can control the number of offspring it produces. Women aren't God's fleas.
Posted by: Sonia Kermaz | October 16, 2008 8:13 AM
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To get back to the debate, clearly Obama won again. We all knew that McCain was going to come out slinging mud. When McCain provided the country with a description of his plans to fix the economy or health care, those plans were vague at best. "I can do everything, and by the way, Obama stinks," is pretty much all I heard from McCain.
As for McCain's misogynist personality, that came into light when he answered the abortion question. I could never vote for a man who called his wife the "c" word in public.
(sorry, off the topic of the debate)
Finally, I have yet to hear the McCain campaign condemn those nut-jobs at his rallies that spew hate. He claimed that he couldn't hear those comments, but one can clearly see his reaction to the words "kill him" at a rally last week.
Posted by: Wisconsin Voter | October 16, 2008 8:13 AM
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The ‘Brave New World’ of BARRY OBAMA
SENATURD BARRY’incurably-dishonest’OBAMA promises to put SOCIALISM/MARXISM as the course for his ‘change’ AMERIKA moment. Nevermind it has never ‘worked’ anywhere it was tried. BARRY will make it work [telling a plumber in a campaign rally yesterday “…you must be prepared to share your money with everyone behind you in line that has not made it.” WHAT??? What kind of pure MARXIST ‘schiess-spiele’ is that??? In BARRY O.’s ‘Lost World’ taxation is the goal to make everyone equal in dismality. $ONE TRILLION DOLLARS + packages from DEMBHOLES to ‘boost’ the economy will give ‘control’ over BANKS and moratoriums of heretofore private loans/mortgages. In short SENATURD BARRY will be able to force lenders to permit those not paying legitmate incumberances – to evict or proceed with evictions. This because BARRY’the-legal-beagle’OBAMA taught confrontation and ‘race-tricks’ to ACORN employees aside from VOTER FRAUD to advance his own political SOCIALIST agenda. OBAMA has paid ACORN over $1MILLION-DOLLARS this calendar year to encourage ‘VOTE FRAUD’ in key supposedly ‘swing-states’. How many of BARRY’s “…57 states” has ACORN ‘got out the vote for BARRY???’ BARRY’incurably-dishonest’OBAMA has always LIED when ever it suits his political MARXIST agenda. Examples are too numerous too list in toto, but following are ‘BARAMABISMS’ most easily fact-checked as FALSE and outright tergivisations. #1) BARRY told us his parents had met in Selma during a ‘civil-rights’ march – LIE. #2) OBAMA said his first-name was derived from the Hebrew ‘baruch’ – LIE.[How many JEWS do you named BARACK HUSSEIN???] #3) BARRY claimed he never submitted ‘a sex bill’ for kindergartners while he was a ILLINOIS STATE SENATOR – LIE. The bill was ILLINOIS SENATE BILL #0099 and contained ‘specific’ sex training for grades K-6, not just don’t go home with some gut or woman claiming to be your uncle or aunt!!! #4) BARRY claimed he never worked for ACORN – LIE. BARRY initiated litigation on their behalf against banks and further ‘taught’/instructed courses on how to game the vote system. #5) BARRY claimed he only ‘knew’ terrorist/murderer + fellow MARXIST – BILL AYERS as a guy from “…the neighborhood” – LIE. Both BARRY + MICHELLE OBAMA met/were friendly with BILL AYERS+BERNADETTE DORN from the 1980’s when BERNADETTE met MICHELLE at the law office they both worked at. BARRY’s first political meeting was at a coffee ‘klotch’ in the home of fellow MARXIST BILL AYERS. In OBAMA’s ‘Lost World’ it is now the SOCIALIST STATES of AMERIKA presided over by the hegemony of REPREHENSIBLE NANCY’sphincter –of –the House-of-Fools’PELOSI + REPREHENSIBLE bank chairman BARNEY’play-with-my-little-schmeckle-or-you-r-a-racist’FRANK who will insure that the ‘secret vote ‘ is outlawed to start in ‘union elections’ and your tax monies are doled out to support companies they alone approve of!!! To paraphrase the quote from MASTER SHAKESPEARE - : “Oh brave new world – what MOODY Marxist MORONS WITH SUCH CREATURES IN IT???” DO NOT LET BARRY’incurably-dishonest’OBAMA GUIDE US TO HIS ‘BRAVE NEW WORLD –of MARXISM ’!!!
Posted by: Zyskandar A. Jaimot | October 16, 2008 8:05 AM
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The big question each person has to ask themselves is "do I have more than 50% of the people in the country?" If the answer is yes, be ready to give to all those with less if Obama gets in. Stop believing that only those making over $200,000. will be hit. This is a man that did in fact vote to raise taxes on those making over 42,000. Do your homework.
Posted by: Kathy | October 16, 2008 8:04 AM
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What if you knew absolutely nothing about the United States Presidential Race of 2008 (but wanted to know) and predicated your quest for knowledge solely on the lies and propaganda of the American liberal media. These "journalists" completely disregard the truth in an effort to sway their American readers vote. This years election will be remembered by historians for the media's colossal efforts to deceive and manipulate the outcome of this electon. Time will judge.
"The late great journalist Murray Kempton once wrote that everything is known about the Mafia except whether it exists. I feel the same way about the great wave of racism and rage detected at McCain-Palin rallies by bloggers and pundits from E. J. Dionne to Frank Rich. The passion of their denunciation of Republican rednecks is admirable. However the evidence of all this racism and rage is slender, almost non-existent.
My friend E. J. wrote: "Are we witnessing the reemergence of the far right as a power in American politics? Has John McCain, inadvertently perhaps, become the midwife of a new movement built around fear, xenophobia, racism and anger?" Maybe I can help out here with answers to these questions. The answers are "No" and "No."The founder of the current wave of far-out Republican rage is Dana Millbank of the Washington Post. Covering a Sarah Palin speech in Clearwater, Florida, Millbank informed us that "Palin's routine attacks on the media have begun to spill into ugliness."
He offered two examples of this ugliness: someone shouted "Kill him!" referring to the 60s bomber Bill Ayers, and a man shouted a racial slur at a network sound man (apparently the N-word), adding "sit down, boy."
These two shouts were clearly over the line. But do two extremist shouts from a crowd of 4,500 people establish the rally as a far-right hate fest? Not really. Florida reporters at the Palin speech did not detect a wave of racism and rage. Their coverage was routine, discovering no incipient fascism. William March of the Tampa Tribune, who was there, told me: "They booed Obama and the press, but that just makes it a normal Republican rally."
Two odd things happened at the hands of bloggers and pundits. The "Kill him!" line, directed toward Ayers was presented as a threat to assassinate Obama. And the single racist remark cited by Millbank became one of many racist remarks at the rally. A New York Times editorial made this same mistake, turning one racial comment into many. So did Daily Kos bloggers and Chicago Sun-Times columnist Mary Mitchell: "Whenever a crowd gets whipped up to a point that they turn ugly and start hurling racists insults, it is common sense that the candidate move so rein it in." Agreed. But there was one racist insult reported by one reporter. Nothing more. And we don't know whether Palin heard it. William March said he didn't hear it.
A Daily Kos blogger, filled with dread of the far right, wrote "There is a time to start feeling fear." He continued: "The event sounds like a precursor to a lynching."
A Huffington Post piece by one Jeffrey Feldman asked, "Is Palin Trying to Incite Violence against Obama?" 'Two subheads in this piece were worse: "McCain Camps Talk 'Character Assassination,'Supporters shout for real assassination" and "McCain Campaign Amplifies Violent Rhetoric. GOP Crowd Threaten Obama's life." Nothing like this happened. No crowd threatened Obama, or called for his assassination. Millbank's article, the only primary source for "ugliness" at Palin's speech did not report this, probably because these incendiary events occurred only in the minds of some liberal writers, not in the real world.
By the time the outrage on the left reached Frank Rich's Sunday column, the narrative line about two-person abusive crowd was set in cement. At Rich's hand, the one racial remark in Clearwater became "the uninhibited slinging of racial epithets." The one shout of "Kill Him!" aimed at Ayers after Palin's description of his bombing career became "raucous and insistent cried of "terrorist' and "Kill Him!" All untrue. This is a classic example of awful journalism. Adam Clymer, the former New York Times reporter and Congressman John Lewis both issued statements alleging that the Palin crowd in Clearwater reminded them of George Wallace. Lewis, who also accused McCain, pointed out that Wallace never killed anyone; he just set the stage for the Birmingham bomb that killed three black children.
All this grows out of the widespread assumption on the left that many conservatives and Republicans aren't fellow Americans who simply disagree with liberals. No, they are dangerous racists and violent crazies waiting for someone to set them off. If evidence for his can't be found in the outside world, someone will make it up in the newsroom."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-leo/the-hate-rally-that-wasnt_b_134732.html
Posted by: WHOAA | October 16, 2008 8:02 AM
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I can see John picking who's healthy and whos not...
Posted by: scott bob | October 16, 2008 8:01 AM
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I hope you are correct that "Joe the plumber" gets interviewed by reporters because if he is I think the truth that he was a McCain plant will surely come out. How many real plumbers (not plumbing contractors) are so comfortable articulating an argument with a famous presidential candidate while they know they are being shot by television cameras?
If there is any truth to his story at all it is probably that he is the son of a wealthy plumbing contractor and tries to act like he is just one of the guys. That would mean it is his daddy's business that he is buying. Meaning that a Rich kid is just having the family business passed along to him.
Something Joe forgot to mention while he was seeking sympathy for making two hundred and eighty thousand dollars a year is that businesses only pay taxes on what is left after business expenses, and let me tell you business owners can be pretty creative when it comes to expenses and tax deductions. Like an all expense trip to their favorite vacation spot can easily become a "legitimate" business trip with just the collection of a few receipts and attendance at an industry seminar or two. Business owners don't give their kids allowances, they pay them salaries. The list of how business owners benefit from their non taxable business income is long than I have time to write here but I am sure you all get the picture.
Please somebody tell us the truth about "Joe the plumber". The answer will probably have to come from the dreaded main stream media. That what right wingers refer to as, right.
Posted by: RW | October 16, 2008 7:53 AM
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America can only show the rest of the world leadership by doing the things others cannot be brave enough to do and elect Barack Obama as the next president. He represents the new world order. Others will soon follow soothe by accepting people as people not colour, race,or creed.
Posted by: Godpower Moses | October 16, 2008 7:50 AM
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The Fannie Mae Five: Their Campaign Contributions Spoke Louder Than Their Conscience:
http://www.sundaypaper.com/More/Archives/tabid/98/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/3159/Obama-and-the-Fannie-Mae-5.aspx
Will The Fannie Mae Five Ever Face justice For Their Actions Which have Caused So Much Pain For Americans ?
One Of The Crooks Who Fleeced Fannie Mae Of Millions Is Rumored To Be Our Next Attorney General. Of Course If That Were To Happen, None Of The Real Crooks Would Ever See The Inside Of A Prison Cell.
Chris Dodd Knows That if Obama Is Elected, that No Democrats Will Ever be placed Under Oath And Even Questioned, Much less Face Any Type Of Legal Repercussions For His Foul Deeds.
http://digitalartpress.wordpress.com/2008/09/17/outrage-obama-to-make-jamie-s-gorelick-attorney-general/
And You Have To Wonder Why The Main Stream Media Has Refused To Lay The Blame On The Fannie Mae officials. Could It be That Some Members Of The Main Stream Press Are MARRIED to some of the guilty ones?
Read This Shocking Expose:
http://www.mrc.org/BozellColumns/newscolumn/2008/col20081007.asp
Posted by: Jerry | October 16, 2008 7:48 AM
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Avoiding God and Palin? You make it sound like there's a difference!
Posted by: Robert Raulerson | October 16, 2008 7:42 AM
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I am outraged by McCain's lack of civility as well as his continued aggression and sometimes outright hostility, towards Obama throughout the last debate. One would have thought that a decorated war hero ought to know better. Whatever happened to the much-touted saying "an officer and a gentleman" The gentleman last night during that last debate was by far Obama.Obama demonstrated maturity, was cool headed and marshalled his points in a collected and strategic manner. Check out Obama's reaction to McCain's false and orchestrated attacks.
I believe that after the last debate the American people now know who will make a better president - Obama. Obama is God-sent to America at this period in the history of America, and I urge all Americans to grab this unique opprtunity to restore the glory of America at home and all over the world by speaking with one voice : vote for Obama.
Posted by: Val Oji | October 16, 2008 7:40 AM
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This essay is an exercise in patronizing and sarcasm.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 7:32 AM
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I thought that religion and state were separate in America?
The day you elect a pagan President, you will really have grown up.
Posted by: Constance | October 16, 2008 7:28 AM
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When you say that an enterprising journo will interview Joe The Plumber, you seem to be referring to the person with whom Obama spoke.
But there is a real Joe The Plumber at www.joetheplumber.com. I wonder what he has to say.
Likewise www.joetheplumber.net and other usual extensions)
Posted by: joehark | October 16, 2008 7:25 AM
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Give unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar, give unto God what belongs to God.
The moderators of the presidential and vice presidential debates have learned that. Don't forget there was a time when the Senator Obama campaign was
heavily into religion to win over the religious base. Now there is no need.
The religionists need to learn not to play partisan politics to serve as an independent moral voice. One sees so little of it.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 7:17 AM
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ED:
Why don't YOU read the professor's essay once again, read all his previous essays and then post a more informed comment?
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 7:09 AM
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John McCain's Joe the Plumber, no matter how well he goes down with the Right, cannot take Palin off the GOP ticket. Her selection was the biggest single mistake ever made by a presidential candidate, and a sad reflection on the decision-making abilities of McCain. A voter for McCain, in selecting this ticket, is indicating willingness to have Sarah Palin as president - in a country which has millions of intelligent alternatives. American Idol standards should not be good enough for the highest office in the western world. It's all a very bad joke.
Posted by: Garrett FitzGerald | October 16, 2008 7:05 AM
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may god have mercy on us, i over heard a remark from a ww11 vet. the other day he said if hed known that the politicans would have got our beloved countryin the shape its in he would have swim home what went with all the men like jfk,and ike ,heaven help our beloved country
Posted by: rubin stephens | October 16, 2008 7:04 AM
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John McCain's Joe the Plumber, no matter how well he goes down with the Right, cannot take Palin off the GOP ticket. Her selection was the biggest single mistake ever made by a presidential candidate, and a sad reflection on the decision-making abilities of McCain. A voter for McCain, in selecting this ticket, is indicating willingness to have Sarah Palin as president - in a country which has millions of intelligent alternatives. American Idol standards should not be good enough for the highest office in the western world. It's all a very bad joke.
Posted by: Garrett FitzGerald | October 16, 2008 7:04 AM
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Mr. Berlinerblau, you are so biased unto the Republican neo-con ticket, I almost couldn't finish your article. You also must have watched a different debate than the rest of America. All I seen for about 2 hours was a calm and professional Obama who answered issues with REAL direction and answers. I seen McCain as a senile, spit-sputtering, eye-rolling, attack after attact, old man jittering in his chair like a 4th grade bully. And God doesn't need to mentioned in a political debate. In fact, most people would feel the same way as I do. At least, in my America. Is there another one that I am not aware of?
My suggestion is to go back and watch the debate again... this time, take your religious blinders off and look for answers to the issues that are facing this country! Not attacks and unprofessionalism!
Ed in MD
Posted by: Ed | October 16, 2008 7:04 AM
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Comparison of abortion statistics from around the world show that tougher laws do have a direct impact on abortions, keeping them much lower than in countries where the laws are lax.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 7:01 AM
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"When Religion Becomes Evil" is a book by Baptist minister Charles Kimball. Charles Kimball was a Professor in the Department of Religion at Wake Forest University and also an Adjunct Professor in the Wake Forest Divinity School. Starting July 1, 2008, he became director of Religious Studies at the University of Oklahoma.
In his September 2002 book "When Religion Becomes Evil", Kimball examines the role of religion in the world and when it defects from its original purpose. While he claims that religion is basically necessary and positive, he ascribes several warning signs for when religions can become dangerous.
Kimball lists five warning signs of a religion becoming evil. These are also his main chapter titles and appear on the back cover of the book.
Absolute Truth Claims
Blind Obedience
Establishing the "Ideal" Time
The End Justifies Any Means
Declaring Holy War
Using his five warning signs, Kimball analyzes what religion is, why he believes we need it, and how we can fix something when it goes wrong.
The Religious Right suffers from the zeal that produces these five elements and for almost eight years they have had a champion in W, who is "born again". It is not surprising that the Nation wants to have a time for moving away from such views. I think that is why faith and religion have taken a back seat. Those are private matters and should not dictate public discourse. I got that viewpoint from a man I call Jesus.
Posted by: Joe | October 16, 2008 7:00 AM
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If 260 abortions per 1,000 live births (1.2 million per year) is a low rate to kill unborn children, 98% of whom are perfectly healthy....
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 6:59 AM
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Contraceptives fail at least 14% of the time. Pro-abortion women tend to treat abortion like late contraception.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 6:57 AM
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J:
Abortion rates at at their lowest levels since Roe v. Wade. Rather than have the government regulate a woman's body, why not continue to promote the use of contraception to prevent pregnancies and change the hearts of women so that they will choose not to have an abortion. I think this will be more effective in the long run.
October 16, 2008 6:41 AM
____________________________________________
Ninety eight percent of abortions are abortions of convenience. So they are hardly going to discuss the matter with their spiritual advisers if they happen to belong to a religious group that has teachings that support abortion.
Read a textbook of human embryology (for eg 'The Developing Human' by Moore and Persaud) to know that a child in the womb is a separate human being with a right to its life. It does not ask to be conceived, it does not give consent to be killed.
The culture of abortion does not take the child into account at all.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 6:52 AM
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John McCain is a honorable man. He loves this country> Has served America for 30 Yrs. I belive he will bring America back to us and not give it to the terrorist.Our furture is in danger. We need to trust John McCain. I have gone through one
depression,WW2, My husband fought for our country.
What has Obama done to show that he is a true American? NOTHING!My VOTE IS FOR JOHN MCCAIN
Posted by: Hermione James | October 16, 2008 6:51 AM
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10/16/08 debate was much as the first two. I do not understand how MR MCCAIN can give a $5000 tax break to a person, whom barly makes enough to pay tax,es.
Next i only know that PALEN is GOV of ALASKA. she hunts moose, and something about abuseing the powers of office, She needs to have the gag remove and make the SUNDAY TALK SHOWS, before i would consider a vote for she and JOHN.
Iwould like to hear more from each, on how the are going to reearn the trust of the worlds people.
don v
Posted by: airplane | October 16, 2008 6:50 AM
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Let's not be too hard on McCain's campaign team. Its easy to armchair quarterback and say that certain strategies should have been used months ago. Don't forget that McCain was actually ahead in the polls in September. Their strategy was working. Obama only pulled ahead after the financial meltdown, something nobody anticipated back in the summer.
Posted by: J | October 16, 2008 6:47 AM
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Thank goodness faith was not discussed at the last debate.
Posted by: WayBeyondSoccerMom | October 16, 2008 6:42 AM
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Abortion rates at at their lowest levels since Roe v. Wade. Rather than have the government regulate a woman's body, why not continue to promote the use of contraception to prevent pregnancies and change the hearts of women so that they will choose not to have an abortion. I think this will be more effective in the long run.
Posted by: J | October 16, 2008 6:41 AM
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If anyone should be lucky enough to "conclude that the United States was France" they'd undoubtedly have a more generous and altogether positive view of the America that Christian fanaticism, cultural xenophobia and conservative morality have spawned.
What is God and why should it "Bless America"? Will this end the Iraq war? Will it solve our economic crisis? Will blessing America provide health care and education for every American?
Rational people bless America, not arbitrary God constructs.
Why don't we all grow up now.
Posted by: Emlyn | October 16, 2008 6:37 AM
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McCain should hire Joe the Plimber as soon as possible, force Palin to resign and get The Plumber into the Veepee seat!
I'm a long time GOP and I haven't been excited about palin, a worthless distraction. But I feel connected with Joe the Plumber, he knows how to discrib and confront Obama.
MCCain-Joe the Plumber 2008!!!
Posted by: Peter carter | October 16, 2008 6:28 AM
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On the topic of abortion, what Senator Obama said during the third debate said that is reasonable and positive:
"We should try to prevent unintended pregnancies by providing appropriate education to our youth,
*communicating that sexuality is sacred and that they should not be engaged in cavalier activity,*
and providing options for adoption, and helping single mothers if they want to choose to keep the baby."
________________________
And with that those who have problems with Senator Obama's dedication to Roe vs Wade, and his extreme position on abortion, can relax.
The public education program based on hard core medical science and human rights for the unborn child that will change the culture of abortion must continue relentlessly so that in at least a generation from now, men and women who are not hardened in attitudes, as they are now, will develop respect and compassion for the human rights of the child in the womb and a judge will be moved to act to overturn Roe vs Wade.
The German Constitutional Court found abortion to be unconstitutional according to the article: The dignity of the human being shall not be violated. The US helped frame that Constitution.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 6:26 AM
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Someone should remind McCain that democracy is not meritocracy. A nation's hero does not necessarily rule: remember Churchill after World War II.
Posted by: rvillate | October 16, 2008 6:26 AM
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"But Obama's record on abortion is extreme. He opposed the ban on partial-birth abortion -- a practice a fellow Democrat, the late Daniel Patrick Moynihan, once called "too close to infanticide." Obama strongly criticized the Supreme Court decision upholding the partial-birth ban. In the Illinois state Senate, he opposed a bill similar to the Born-Alive Infants Protection Act, which prevents the killing of infants mistakenly left alive by abortion. And now Obama has oddly claimed that he would not want his daughters to be "punished with a baby" because of a crisis pregnancy -- hardly a welcoming attitude toward new life."
Michael Gerson
The Washington Post
Wednesday, April 2, 2008
Third Presidential Debate: On Abortion
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/us_elections_2008/7673042.stm
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 6:16 AM
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The true victor, here,champion of the people, will consider commandeering the gas industry's coffers to pay for the wall street bail-out plan. After all, the public has been "raped" at the pumps for all the money that is "in there" !!! The energy industry is important enough to be regulated by the government.
Secondly, the real estate market should be government regulated, as well, because it involves selling pieces of our country to (hopefully?) citizens and its practices should be kept legitimate !!!...more to come on security, education, the flight industry, space exploration, etc...
Posted by: mike sala | October 16, 2008 6:14 AM
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Roe vs Wade
6. The position of the American Medical Association. The anti-abortion mood prevalent in this country in the late 19th century was shared by the medical profession. Indeed, the attitude of the profession may have played a significant role in the enactment of stringent criminal abortion legislation during that period.
An AMA Committee on Criminal Abortion was appointed in May 1857. It presented its report, 12 Trans. of the Am. Med. Assn. 73-78 (1859), to the Twelfth Annual Meeting. That report observed that the Committee had been appointed to investigate criminal abortion "with a view to its general suppression." It deplored abortion and its frequency and it listed three causes of "this general demoralization":
"The first of these causes is a wide-spread popular ignorance of the true character of the crime -- a belief, even among mothers themselves, that the foetus is not alive till after the period of quickening.
"The second of the agents alluded to is the fact that the profession themselves are frequently supposed careless of foetal life . . . .
"The third reason of the frightful extent of this crime is found in the grave defects of our laws, both common and statute, as regards the independent and actual existence of the child before birth, as a living being. These errors, which are sufficient in most instances to prevent conviction, are based, and only based, upon mistaken and exploded medical dogmas. With strange inconsistency, the law fully acknowledges the foetus in utero and its inherent rights, for civil purposes; while personally and as criminally affected, it fails to recognize it, and to its life as yet denies all protection." Id., at 75-76. The Committee then offered, and the Association adopted, resolutions protesting "against such unwarrantable destruction of human life," calling upon state legislatures to revise their abortion laws, and requesting the cooperation of state medical societies "in pressing the subject." Id., at 28, 78.
In 1871 a long and vivid report was submitted by the Committee on Criminal Abortion. It ended with the observation, "We had to deal with human life. In a matter of less importance we could entertain no compromise. An honest judge on the bench would call things by their proper names. We could do no less." 22 Trans. of the Am. Med. Assn. 258 (1871). It proffered resolutions, adopted by the Association, id., at 38-39, recommending, among other things, that it "be unlawful and unprofessional for any physician to induce abortion or premature labor, without the concurrent opinion of at least one respectable consulting physician, and then always with a view to the safety of the child -- if that be possible," and calling "the attention of the clergy of all denominations to the perverted views of morality entertained by a large class of females -- aye, and men also, on this important question."
Except for periodic condemnation of the criminal abortionist, no further formal AMA action took place until 1967. In that year, the Committee on Human Reproduction urged the adoption of a stated policy of opposition to induced abortion, except when there is "documented medical evidence" of a threat to the health or life of the mother, or that the child "may be born with incapacitating physical deformity or mental deficiency," or that a pregnancy "resulting from legally established statutory or forcible rape or incest may constitute a threat to the mental or physical health of the patient," two other physicians "chosen because of their recognized professional competence have examined the patient and have concurred in writing, " and the procedure "is performed in a hospital accredited by the Joint Commission on Accreditation of Hospitals." The providing of medical information by physicians to state legislatures in their consideration of legislation regarding therapeutic abortion was "to be considered consistent with the principles of ethics of the American Medical Association." This recommendation was adopted by the House of Delegates. Proceedings of the AMA House of Delegates 40-51 (June 1967)...
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 6:13 AM
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I have been a core McCain supporter untill last night. I would now vote for Obama for his discipline and vision. McCain is simply more of the same for America.
Posted by: Edward, UK | October 16, 2008 6:09 AM
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William (Wm) Robert Johnston
Don't downplay risks of abortion
in The Brownsville Herald, June 29, 2003, p. E3.
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abriskeditorial.html
______________________________________
Although I do not agree that abortion and incidence of breast cancer are related, Johnston makes several good points.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 6:04 AM
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If McCain loses he owes it to his campaign handlers whom you have adeptly described...
Posted by: Bob | October 16, 2008 6:04 AM
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Maybe Obama should have mentioned Sarah Palin's name more often. He should have mentioned how much she "cares" about our wild life, by using $400,000 of state money to fund a propaganda campaign in support of aerial hunting, by suing the federal government to prevent listing the polar bear as an endangered species or by offering a bounty of $150 for each left front leg of freshly killed wolves. Yes, I would have loved to hear something about Sarah Palin's great "pro-life" posture.
Posted by: Deborah Robinson | October 16, 2008 6:01 AM
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If the Unborn Child is a Person Entitled to Rights, Abortion is Aggression
by Dr. Edwin Vieira, Jr.
http://www.l4l.org/library/pers-agg.html
Why the Embryo or Fetus Is Not a Parasite
by Thomas L. Johnson
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 5:55 AM
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"When a human being's life is on the block, a proper legal system gives the benefit of the doubt to life. This is why even advocates of capital punishment call for stringent proof. If individuals accused of felonies get the benefit of such doubt, why not the beings in the womb?
What possible wrongful injuries should be considered? For the pregnant woman, it is a partial and temporary loss of liberty; for her fetus, it is the total and permanent loss of life and therefore liberty as well.
The answer is obvious. The law should give the benefit of the doubt to life."
----Doris Gordon
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 5:54 AM
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Abortion and Thomson's Violinist: Unplugging a Bad Analogy
Comments on why the prenatal child has the right under individual liberty to be in the mother's womb
by Doris Gordon,
National Coordinator
Libertarians for Life
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 5:53 AM
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"In Roe v. Wade, the Supreme Court announced itself unable to answer "the difficult question of when life begins." It should have given the benefit of its uncertainty to life. Instead, it arbitrarily ruled that to be a person legally, we must be born.
In effect, Roe trashed the ethical principle of equal unalienable rights as set forth in The Declaration of Independence -- and imposed a two-tiered legal policy on human beings that defines a superior class as persons with rights and an inferior class that does not count. Such a double standard is not only unlibertarian, it puts all of us on a slippery slope. Yet to this day, the Court is unwilling to confront either philosophy or correct human embryology.
Our unalienable rights are pre-political. As Nadine Strossen, the president of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), said on C-Span: "We don't need the Ninth Amendment or the Constitution to have rights; we have rights by virtue of the fact we are human beings." I agree. The Declaration of Independence holds that everyone is created -- not born -- equal and "endowed by their Creator" -- not the government -- with certain unalienable rights, among which are life and liberty, and that the purpose of government is to secure these rights..."
A Libertarian Atheist Answers
"Pro-Choice Catholics"
by Doris Gordon
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 5:51 AM
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Why the Statement "A Woman Has the Right to Control Her Own Body" Begs the Basic Question in the Abortion Debate
by by Dr. Edwin Vieira, Jr.
(Dr. Vieira is an attorney practicing constitutional law.)
http://www.l4l.org/library/rightbeg.html
The "Right" of Abortion: A Dogma in Search of a Rationale
by Edwin Vieira, Jr.
(Dr. Vieira is an attorney practicing constitutional law.)
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2008 5:50 AM
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The opinion has been voiced by several bloggers. Professor Stevens-Arroyo should do all Catholic Americans a favor by converting to the Episcopal Church. He can continue to write his essays as he has written them, only the title of his blog needs to be changed to Episcopal America.
Prof S-A being named the panelist of Catholic America is causing a dreadful confusion.