"A Mass Violation of Federal Tax Law"

To those who endorse such a travesty; go read your bibles. Jesus REFUSED to have anything to do with POLITICS! Pilate marvelled and washed his hands of the matter because Jesus had broken NONE of his secular laws and handed him over to the wicked Pharisees. Men much like these wicked preachers of today who lust for power and money. Jesus didn't make them do this, but Satan did. And they are cooperating willingly. Someone should go and warn them of the wrath to come, and of the burning forever in hell when they die.

Where are the preachers that know the bible and will stand up to these preachers and show where they are even breaking GOD'S laws and requirements when they violate the scriptures which tell them they must obey the authorities? It seems they are supporting their blasphemy. Why would this be? Are the afraid? Only people who don't follow the Lord could be that afraid. It has always been the bood of martyrs who dared to stand up against lies and warn such liars of the wrath to come that has EVER spread true Christianity. Thanks for this blog. I'm just appalled with these people. They are such liars and schemers, interested NOT in GOD and his people but power and filthy lucre.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/georgetown/2008/07/obamas_faith_based_initiatives.html#more

Is there a partisan bias to which political party or candidate a religious organization or religious teacher may support or endorse publicly?

Make a list of all the religious leaders and religious organizations that support and endorse publicly the Obama-Biden ticket. Compare it with those who do the same with the McCain-Palin ticket.

Are those who support the McCain-Palin ticket being singled out? If so, why?

Is freedom of speech to be denied to those who would state in public how they intend to be a moral influence for a better society?

Over centuries religions have sought to build societies in which loving one's neighbor as oneself is practiced. They have been imperfect in many ways but that is the stated goal of all religions.

What is morality?

Loving your neighbor as yourself in ACTION.

Morality is the goal of all religions.

--- Mahatma Gandhi

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Drew Allanson1:

You assert that "It's interesting that Eric Williams didn't voice concern over his denomination, the United Church of Christ, hosting Barack Obama at their national convention.

Seems to me that this all about politics (on both sides) since Williams didn't have the courage to challenge his own denomination on this."

You have not been following Eric Williams interviews closely. He has said repeatedly that endorsement of candidates within his own denomination, The United Church of Christ, "deserve the same scrutiny that other endorsements receive." He has asserted in the print media and on NPR that it is "always wrong for clergy to endorse candidates from the pulpit, regardless of whether the candidates are Democratic, Republican, or Independent and regardless of the denomination of the pastor-endorser."

Republikan:

You assert: "The first person and Church that should be slapped with a fine is Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago. You know Reverend Wright talking about Barack Obama, Bill and Hillary Clinton. What about Father Pfleger and his sermon at Trinity.

You seem to only have a problem with preachers who are going to point out Biblical truths which could shame Obama and his voting record."

You have no factual basis for the assumption, or the assertion, that Trinity UCC is not presently under audit by the IRS for precisely the allegations you articulate.

The IRS is an equal opportunity investigator.

- Helen

Athena4:

I think clergy and other employees of a religious organization are still taxed, but the profits of their organization are not. The clergy still have "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's."

Perhaps taxing a church where there is blatant political speech is the best compromise we can make in this situation. Still, it's a fine line that many clergymen (conservative or liberal) will be learning to walk.

You betcha! No wonder those preachers can drive Mercedeses and Beamers - they're not paying their taxes!

I'm not saying that all clergy should pay taxes if they are non-partisan. There's a big difference between "vote pro-life" and "vote for X because they're pro-life". But if you are saying "vote for X" or "vote for the ABC Party" you should be taxed. That goes for liberal religious groups as well as conservative ones. But it's only the liberal ones that the IRS goes after these days.

To Athena4 --

Especially those churches who preach the so-called "Prosperity Gospel". These guys should be first to pony up some dough... :)

But seriously, I think the question I posed to Farnaz still stands. How is this threat to tax-exemption not a limitation on free speech and expression? I'm no great fan of the Religious Right (see my earlier post on political Christians for why), but I do think that the ADF brings up a valid point.

If churches want to be politically active, they can pay taxes. The taxes from some of these mega-churches would go along way towards solving the economic crisis!

To Farnaz --

P.S. Thanks for answering me in the fashion of Thomas Aquinas. :)

To Farnaz --

I don't think the situation is that simple (though I wish it were). By threatening to revoke tax-exempt status from religious institutions, don't we limit free speech more than we preserve Jefferson's "wall of separation"? Which of these fundamentals of American society is more precious?

Robert B:

You ask, "As for revoking the tax-exempt status of religious institutions, I don't think that's a good idea either. After all, there are plenty of non-profit groups that have distinct political agendas. Why should secular institutions have an advantage denied to religious ones?"

I answer: Separation of church and state

I agree with many of you that church is a place for spiritual reflection and instruction. I don't like it when priests at my church mention specific political issues as part of the homily; I would much rather have the celebrant explain why Christians must treat all human life with dignity and let us take the next step. Luckily, politically charged speech from the pulpit doesn't happen that often in my parish. It was *much* worse when I was in the diocese of Arlington, VA...

My chief concern about political Christians (as I call them) like Spiderman2 is that they forget where their focus should be. St. Augustine put it best, I think, in his *Concerning the City of God* (please forgive the length of this excerpt):

"Thus the things necessary for this mortal life are used by both kinds of men and families alike, but each has its own peculiar and widely different aim in using them. The earthly city, which does not live by faith, seeks an earthly peace, and the end it proposes, in the well-ordered concord of civic obedience and rule, is the combination of men's wills to attain the things which are helpful to this life. The heavenly city, or rather the part of it which sojourns on earth and lives by faith, makes use of this peace only because it must, until this mortal condition which necessitates it shall pass away. ***Consequently, so long as it lives like a captive and a stranger in the earthly city, though it has already received the promise of redemption, and the gift of the Spirit as the earnest of it, it makes no scruple to obey the laws of the earthly city, whereby the things necessary for the maintenance of this mortal life are administered; and thus, as this life is common to both cities, so there is a harmony between them in regard to what belongs to it.***" (emphasis mine)

In my opinion, political Christians become so focus on transforming the secular world around them that they tend to forget that they must live as "captives and strangers" in the earthly city. They forget that their true citizenship is not of this world...

As for revoking the tax-exempt status of religious institutions, I don't think that's a good idea either. After all, there are plenty of non-profit groups that have distinct political agendas. Why should secular institutions have an advantage denied to religious ones? Like I said before, I don't want churches to become centers for political debate, but I'm not sure that revoking tax-exempt status in the way to go about enforcing this (if indeed such a move can or even should be enforced).

On an unrelated matter, why can we post in the old manner here, but not on the main comment board?

I honestly do not care whether church, mosq, or synagogue clergy do or do not endorse this, that, or the other candidate.

I simply don't want to subsidize them, period. It is high time we ended tax exempt status for religious institutions.

why do not those who decry licensed ministers speaking from the pulpits regarding moral issues closely tied to political platforms also speak out against the nation's largest abortion provider, which enjoys 501 c3 tax exempt status, using its power, money, and influence to protect the legal status of the killing of the unborn? And why not also against large corporations making tax-exempt contributions to "political action committees" (read: campaign funds) to prevent California voters from enacting the Defense of Marriage ammendment? Come on, this shoe fits two feet. Ministers detailing the moral aspects of abortion and homosexuality being enshrined into law are railed against because they do so while tax exempt. Other organisations )some including churches) who speak out in favour of those things do so with the high praise of the very same lot who rail against moral righteousness. Two faced or what?
And as to the fears that we become a nation whose law is based on biblical principles, I hate to rain on your parade, but check out your nation's history. The entire Declaration of Independence, Constitution, and Bill of Rights is wholly based on biblical principles. Study it out, you will find it is so. Every one of the founders held to a biblical standard of morality and law, even those "non-religious" men. What you fear is a return to the original intent of the founders of this nation, and the charters granted the early colonists by the British king. Read the charters before you laugh. Read the history of the War for Independance, you will find nearly every minister in the land spoke freely from the pulpit and otherwise into the politics of the day, and the Constitution was deliberately and carefully written to assure the practice continued unrestricted. \
As to those who promote the idea that the bible approves of slavery, you prove your own ignorance. Nowhere does it approve the sort of chattel slavery rampant in England and America before abolition came about. Yes, indentured servitude was practiced in certain limited situations, but you fail to realise two things: the one indentured could only find himself in that situation through his own folly, first, and second, you forget about the Jubilee, when ALL slaves/indentured servants were released totally. There were also in place clear rules to enable a slave to buy his freedom, and the master HAD NO CHOICE but to comply. NOWHERE in the scriptures is the capture by force of large numbers of people and transporting them to another land to be forever sold into slavery as cattle ever condoned. Yes, certain religious people took passages out of context, put a handy spin on them, and used them to promote slavery as practiced in America and England. What ended this was righteous men rising up, decrying the misuse of scripture, and taking a stand for righteousness and the abolishing of man "owning" another human. And yes, it was largely brought about through good men speaking, against the immorality of slavery from a biblical perspective, often at risk to their own lives (no tax-exempt status in view here--it hadn't been thought of yet, mainly because tyrannical tax had not yet been enacted.. we were ALL largely tax exempt). Same situation with the Civil Rights movement of the mid-20th century. So, how is all of a sudden the issue of abortion, or homosexuality, being enshrined into law, often at tax-payer expense, suddenly to overthrow three or four hundred years of settled practice? The ADF are right in challenging this unconstitutional law. Good on them for having the guts to take a stand. They clearly have in view something far greater than the tax exempt status of a few churches being removed.. or not.

History Matters: I completely agree with you. 100%. Ministers, Rabbis, Imams, etc ALL have the Constitutionally-protected right to Freedom of Speech. If they wish to endorse a politician, they all certainly have the right to do so, even though most of us would disagree with the notion. People seem to forget that every square inch of this nation is a Free Speech Zone.

Spiderman2: Get a grip. Enough with the Doomsday nonsense. Is that all you have to say? Are you trying to make a point or something? What drivel.

Hey, Be logical, why not talk to the IRS and ask them what they plsn to do? Be logical for once.

"What would have happened if churches hadn't pushed for the abolition of slavery? How were all the Civil Right marches organized? Who led the Civil Rights movement?"

While those churches often used religious language to describe their goals, they still translated the goals into secular principles. The ADF and its member organizations are pushing sectarian goals that have no secular translation, claiming that certain policies are the will of God or Jesus.

I understand why the author feels as he does. And I understand that many religious leaders actually speak against political speech from the pulpit. But we need to keep the history in perspective.

The U.S. Constitution does not contain the words "separation of church and state." Those words are a metaphor, but a metaphor is not a clear summary of the facts. In fact, our previous Chief Justice of the Supreme Court thought the metaphor is harmful to legal interpretation.

The Constitution (First Amendment) says Congress shall make no law respecting an establish of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. One could argue that not letting a pastor speak freely is prohibiting free exercise (and perhaps free speech, mentioned later in the First Amendment). The IRS rule seems a violation of the Constitution. That is why the ADF would like to get this into the court system.

I personally don't want my pastor speaking directly about candidates, but that is between my congregation and the pastor. I believe he/she has the Constitutional right to talk about candidates.

If this law stands, don't you think the ACLU or some other group will eventually demand revocation of a church's tax status because the minister speaks out against abortion, without mentioning a party or candidate? After all, the partly lines are relatively clear, and that COULD be interpreted as endorsing a candidate indirectly. Yet abortion, seem by many as the taking of innocent life, could appropriately be addressed as a moral issue by a religious leader.

The background of this is discussed here if you want more background:
http://churchvstate.blogspot.com/

I don't mind a opinions different from mine. I don't mind if you wish your pastor to keep quiet about candidates from the pulpit (in fact, I feel the same way). But I think it is inaccurate to base that wish on the Constitution, because such was not the intent of the First Amendment.

BTW, religious organizations are not meant to be places where one seeks political information. It is a place of worship and one could at best expect to get that particular religion's take on political issues.

The media is meant to be different - non-partisan and covering all political positions equally.

Freedom of speech does not end in religious organizations. Discussion of moral and ethical aspects of proposed public policies does not constitute playing politics. Only outright endorsement of any particular candidate and political campaigning for them does.

Why should only Christian churches be singled out?

What about Mosques and Synagogues?

Google Tory Christman (formerly Tory Bezazian)and Andreas Heldal-Lund

With respect, Roy, I wouldn't expect very much reliable information at all from any church. Belief in holy superheroes would rather disqualify most other opinions natural, philosophical, political, etc.

Special responsibilities attend the special status of churches. If a monopolist is found to have engaged in price-gouging, her firm may be disbanded. I don't see why a different logic should apply to churches that violate the compact they have made with government and society.

If you want to influence Caesar's campaign, at least render unto him that which is his.

When churches begin to function like propaganda machines they becomes almost completely useless as a source of reliable information.

If I were an American, I would vote for the Obama-Biden team myself because of all the policies combined, despite my anti-abortion position; but I could do it while at the same time admiring many qualities in Senator McCain and Governor Palin. Governor Palin is a truly fantastic woman and Senator McCain an admirable hero.

No offense meant Professor. I'm just hoping to read non-partisan political analysis from you.

When the media begin to function like propaganda machines it becomes almost completely useless as a source of reliable information.

What about mainstream international newspapers which degenerate to function like partisan propaganda machines?

We saw what biased reporting can do as happened in the lead up to the invasion of Iraq. An American public who enthusiastically supported the invasion of Iraq in violation of international law and a better informed international community totally opposed to it.

test

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

for those of you unfamiliar, this is the relevant clause of the US Constitution's 1st amendment.

you will notice the only restriction is on Congress. they are to "make no law." the cited tax code, 501(c) (3), by threatening a Church's tax-free status, *IS* "prohibiting the free exercise thereof!"

also, if IRS only goes after clergy who support McCain - not those who support Obama - such selective enforcment only strengthens arguments against this law.

This is an interesting discussion that shows how polarized we are. My wife and I discussed this yesterday. [She is a fundamentalist Christian and I am happily non-denominational; it follows that she is independent with a conservative twist and I am liberal with an independent streak. We are perfectly satisfied in our faith and our politics.]

Instead of a knee-jerk reaction, this issue requires careful thought and, perhaps, even prayer. I would urge Americans of all faiths to carefully consider this issue and discuss it with their friends, their families and their faith communities. The pastors and the ADF are trying to use a wrecking ball when perhaps a hammer and nails are more appropriate. I have no objection to certain political acts by tax exempt organizations. Activist churches have long been a part of our history. If a church holds a political discussion in their building where all opinions are welcome and where the candidates from all parties are given equal time to present their views on issues related to faith, that is a good thing. Perhaps more of them should do this so their communities can hear more than one opinion. However, these community discussions should be held separate from the traditional services of that church. Traditional services are supposed to be about faith and fellowship under the lawgiver (God, Allah, Yaweh, the Great Spirit, whatever).

When a pastor uses the traditional service to opine on an election and to endorse his or her candidate, then they have crossed a line that should not be crossed. If I were in a congregation where the pastor did this, I would speak out in the service. Many of our forefathers left Europe to escape this type of political-religious intermingling. They did not wish to be forced into a religion by the leaders of that time. In America, we now see forced religion by the powerful as wrong. Today one can view the leaders of these churches as having power comparable to political leaders. When these pastors make political proclamations, they are misusing their power and are trying to force a political opinion on their congregants. This is equally wrong.

My advice to these pastors is to step back and examine the real reasons why they wish to step on a fundamental principle of America. Are they misusing their power? Are they too focused on the sliver in the politicians' eyes and not concerned about the plank in their own? Would they accept that another church with a completely opposing view point should be allowed the same freedom? Are they concerned that other nations have very strong connections between religion and state and are often very repressive regimes where the people lack basic freedoms?

I think I know the answers to these questions and it prevents me from following these pastors. Perhaps their congregants should ask questions and judge for themselves. If they judge that this activism is wrong, they need to speak out.

"it's tantamount to painting your whole house with high octane GASOLINE. The moment Obama is elected , America is READY TO BURN"

LOOK SICKOS GET A GRIP AND LET IT GO OR I WILL SEE JUCTICE PREVAIL FROM YOUR THREATS TO DO BODILY HARM TO ME AND IN THE DAY THA YOU MAKE ANOTHER ATTEMPT ON MY LIFE I WILL BE IN COURT TH DAY THAT YOU ARE SENTENCED TO JAIL FOR YOUR CRIME.

Tax exemption or no tax exemption, you will be hearing A LOT MORE from these preachers. It's the sign of the time. When DOOMSDAY is near, preachers become bold and loud.

The message will be LISTEN OR DIE. Doomsday will occur because many people will OPT TO DIE. They are deft and cannot hear.

The Bible is VERY ACCURATE with its prophecies. It has predicted that the world will become stupid. BULLS-EYE.

homesower, what would have happened if "the church" hadn't pushed for the abolition of slavery?

The other "the church" which was being used to justify it would still be having slavery today.

Slavery is in your bible. It is approved of in your bible. Your bible was used to justify it.

Doomsday is coming spiderman2, and it can't come soon enough for you.

Besides the fact that this is utter crap, why are you so anxious for the most of humanity to die like that? Does it get you off, get you hard, what?

You're going to live whatever is left of your life, just like all the other end-of-timers throughout the past 2,000 years, and it will never happen.

Unless of course, someone just like you gets her finger on "the button"

Secularist - an act of Congress, pure and simple.

What would it take to remove the tax exempt status of churches? Does anybody know?

Separation of Church and State? Read your First Amendment. The wall is to keep the government out of the church, not the other way around.

What would have happened if churches hadn't pushed for the abolition of slavery? How were all the Civil Right marches organized? Who led the Civil Rights movement?

If the law was rigidly applied there would have been a revolt a long-time ago. Its perfectly appropriate for these pastors to test the law this way. Many important court decisions have been based on someone breaking a law for the purpose of being able to argue in a court room that the law is unconstitutional. Remember the Scopes Monkey trial? How about Plessey vs Ferguson, or Dred Scott?

I agree that it is generally unwise for a pastor to push candidates or politics, but there are times when it is important to do just that.

When Obama wins the election, a new dawn will arise in America after eight years of darkness. But if, by some evil twist of fate, the religious bigots, McWorse and St Sarah the Moose Slayer, win, we will sink further into the dark age.

These preachers are sacrificing their tax exemption just to SAVE AMERICA.

But many Americans had become idiots. Many of them won't be saved. Part of America will burn, including most part of the rest of the world.

Doomsday is coming.

READY TO BURN

It's very scary for preachers to just keep silent while it watches America approaching Doom. The Doom is we will have a future president who is very liberal, pro-abortionist and pro-gay marrriage.

It's tantamount to painting your whole house with high octane GASOLINE. The moment Obama is elected , America is READY TO BURN.

yada yada yada yada HAHAHAHA yada yada HAHAHAHA yada yada yada HAHAHAHA yada yada yada HAHAHAHA yada yada yada HAHAHAHA yada yada yada HAHAHAHA yada yada yada HAHAHAHA yada yada yada HAHAHAHA yada yada yada HAHAHAHA yada yada yada yada yada yada HAHAHAHA HAHAHAHA

Joe Putz: Hey Pastor, how much would it cost me to get your support? You know, get all your robots to vote for me and not the other guy?

Pastor: Are you holy in the sight of God, do you accept Jesus yadda yadda yadda?

Joe Putz: Yeah, sure, all that stuff.

Pastor: Well, I had to ask. Look, what interests me more than even personal money is Power. I want a seat in your council, I want a hand on your ear.
If you can convince the government to start handing over more of that faith-based money to the right churches, then I'm on your side.

Joe Putz: whatever you say Pastor. It'll make me look good to the rubes too, like I really care and all that.

Pastor: Lastly, I want this set of laws to be passed (hands over a notebook). I know you can't get them all passed, but I want your word that you'll be vocal about your support for them. I have some other Joe Putz's at the state and local level who are working for me too. We'll finally be able to take over this country the way jay-sus wants us to, can I hear an amen!

Joe Puts: Amen Pastor! Look, can you validate my parking ticket?

You know what I find truley amazing is how much Pastors spend to own property. You can obtain all sorts of information about their ownership of property from public records, their address of condos owned, townhomes owned, rentals owned.

How on eath can they afford to make these purchases, and get money back through renting the properties out.

Mirror, mirror, on the wall who is the spy behind it all
The mirror gives an insight to a private view Seeing what they think is what is true
But beware my friend because in the end
You see what they want you to see
So the suprise can be kept for when it is meant to be

Wow, and I thought the whole point of attending church services was to seek spiritual growth, spiritual solace, spiritual enlightenment. How silly to realize at this late point that it's about politics. No more spiritual nurturing involved, no feeding of the soul, just free speaking men with an agenda. In reading about these I am surprised that these 'free speech' ministers endorse an adulterer. Maybe the barriers they are trying to weaken between church and state also includes the 7th Commandment.

"Make no mistake. The puppet-masters, which have used the religious right to usurp control of one of our political parties, are extremely adept at this kind of strategy."

For those who have issues with government and policies in place to over see the good of thwe nation, it will always be a "hidden agenda."

Frankly, I don't give a damn what you think, I just do not care, period!

This is all about timing. Of course, this ridiculous initiative isn’t expected to succeed! Separation of Church and State is sacrosanct.

The real objective is to motivate the religious ultra-conservative faction, once again, to get out and vote on this single-issue topic. Who do you think has contributed funds to this "movement"? The ADF, Alliance Defense Fund, is pure cover for more political manipulation. Where do all their lawyers come from. Follow the money...

Make no mistake. The puppet-masters, which have used the religious right to usurp control of one of our political parties, are extremely adept at this kind of strategy.

The real difficulty is trying to separate Truth from Spin.

Perhaps, it is easier to be told who to vote for…

The pastors are doing a good work for the betterment of future generations and for the good of all.

To take their tax exemption away would be a crime to humanity, what hatred some people have for those who dedicate to life to doing good for others. Honestly, I won’t blame the pastors for leaving all the work that they do for the good of someone else in the dust and moving on to better their own lives and thinking about themselves for once.

But if they did I am sure you would find fault with that too, there is no pleasing some people. It is better to do the work where someone appreciates your efforts of kindness, consideration, and careful thought over their life. Stop wasting your time and efforts on unappreciated people. Time to move on, pastors to bigger and better things, let go of what is past and those you despise your goodness.

Christianism, Islamism, etc., are not the problem. The problem is that we say we are committed to separation of church and state while granting tax exempt status to institutions of organized religion.

Let clergy say whatever they want. Remove tax exempt status from religious institutions.

Mike, "Open your eyes and see the truth-- Organized Religion = EVIL"

Not the truth, unless of course you have proof, yes, no, maybe? I thought so. Let me just say that a non-believer or non-Christian, will not see faith through the same eyes as a believer and with good reason, you may agree with the reason or you may not. In order to have a belief in something, anything, a desire must exist, true? If the desire is void, rejected, repulsive, or of no interest then that person will not believe that faith is founded, good, and worth while.

Faith has been, is, and always will be an individual’s desire to know and accept. People argue over whether it is false or true, the truth of that statement is that neither side can validate their theory. The fact is that the basis of Christianity is well stated to have the foundation of believing it by “faith.” Faith requires one to exercise the cancellation of natural laws to be in a state of faith, which we as humans know and call the five senses.

One cannot feel, taste, smell, hear, or speak faith into existence, it requires the use of independent thinking and to believe in it without the support of the human senses, otherwise faith would not be faith in its true sense.

For the record, I can always tell when a non-believer or non-Christian is talking when they reference “religion” as being the entirety of the religious belief system, When in fact religion and Christianity are two separate entities and do not co-exist, you are either a religious individual or you are a Christian.

Religion’s foundation is based on rules, regulations, and a form and rituals with generally no change of the person inward or no change of the heart. Christianity is based on faith and according to scripture, newness within the heart and soul of a person, or the spirit-man; which takes time to develop.

So, Pardon me, but all that are believers are not considered evil. When you make that statement, I implore you to quantify it by using a specific instance, person, or type of religious belief to call out the evil you reference.

Organized religion is the root of all evil.
The so-called religious right brought the scourge of George W. Bush down upon our land. Religious organizations do not deserve tax exempt staus. They deserve close monitoring as you would a con man, grifter, or snake oil salesman. Groups of religious zealots gather in large groups to hide their evil behind the ancient sayings of poets and philosophers. They kneel in public and back stab in private. They concern themselves with abortion and gay unions while millions starve. How many religious organizations are fighting for health care as vehemently as they are fighting gay unions? Why do their leaders live in luxury while the followers struggle daily? Open your eyes and see the truth-- Organized Religion = EVIL

The IRS has a moral obligation to make these politikal preachers pay the price of politiks.
They want to preach politiks
but they don't want to pay the price of admission.
The IRS has a duty to do and that means putting the screws to these so-called preachers of politiks.

I can't stand politiks in my pulpit.
They aren't preaching Christ
they're preaching for politiks.
So make them pay for it...
just like the rest of US..

It's interesting that Eric Williams didn't voice concern over his denomination, the United Church of Christ, hosting Barack Obama at their national convention - see http://tinyurl.com/5x2kug

Seems to me that this all about politics (on both sides) since Williams didn't have the courage to challenge his own denomination on this.

Perhaps Jacques,

The first person and Church that should be slapped with a fine is Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago. You know Reverend Wright talking about Barack Obama, Bill and Hillary Clinton. What about Father Pfleger and his sermon at Trinity.

You seem to only have a problem with preachers who are going to point out Biblical truths which could shame Obama and his voting record.

If no candidate's name was mentioned, where is the problem?

The problem is with you and the "drum beat" of fear that McCain and Palin are resonating with Evangelicals and Catholics. Freedom of speech is a bell you ring when you are worried.

Interesting.

It's interesting that Eric Williams didn't voice concern over his denomination, the United Church of Christ, hosting Barack Obama at their national convention (see http://tinyurl.com/5x2kug).

Seems to me that this all about politics (on both sides) since Williams didn't have the courage to challenge his own denomination on this.

I thought Rev. Jeramiah Wright already settled this issue.

This is religious harlotory at its worst.
These pastors are hypocrits, they do not have the love and peace of our lord Jesus Christ. They preach hate instead of message of reconciliation and of love. They promote wars and killings around the globe instead of peace of our Lord Jesus that passes all understanding. They will rather continue the blinding of poor gullible southern christians than to bring wholistic message our Lord to all men. Why hasn't these men condenm the evil regime they sent to washington 8 years ego. Even the blind has see the atrocities of these religious prostitutes, from Guantanamo to Abu-Gherib gulag these pastors stay silent. From Enron to looting of our national treasury dry they looked the other way.

As long as GOP politicians shouts Jesus Jesus, there are plenty of vile men out there to defend them provided they promise to back anti-abortion and anti-gay positions. This is not the reason Jesus established His church on earth.

No one is denying the clergy their freedom of speech, they can say what they wish - they just won't be able to do it with tax exempt status. That status is a privilege afforded by the government, not a right. As an officer in a local church, I am quite upset that politics is brought up during a church service. Politics divide people. Churches are supposed to be about uniting people in their COMMON beliefs.

Churches and any non-profit/charity organization should have their spending and their practices watched like a hawk. The government is giving special privileges to these groups but if they don't play by the rules the privileges need to be removed.

A frightening amount of people don't understand how important the separation of church and state is to maintaining a healthy democracy. Nothing scares me more than the possibility of rewinding the progress of our culture and becoming a religious state. One of the primary reasons people came over to America to start fresh was religious freedom. That means the freedom to practice yours and not be force into practicing someone else's.

There are many people that try to reconcile their religious beliefs with the greater social world around them: with science, with politics, etc. It doesn't work. They are separate entities with their own logic. Church and religion will no longer be what you want it to be if you start forcing it into schools and government policy. Once religion is part of government it is no longer yours, it is everybody's and they are going to do whatever they want with it, whether you like it or not.

1. These 33 idiots parading themselves as pastors are nothing but hypocrites and charlatans deceiving the gullible and ignorant American southern Christians. These are no men of God, they are religious harlots. The message of Jesus is a message of love and peace and not of hate and discrimination.
2. With this same ploy, they sheepishly voted into office American's worst president since 1776. What these idiots are doing is no different from the actions of madrasass in Pakistan, Afghanistan and other places run by extremist ideologies. Extremist ideology is evil regardless of who is preaching it Christians, Zionists or Moslems alike.
3. These religious bigots are at it again, violating laws deliberately and creating chaos and disorder. Jesus said to give Caesar what belongs to Caesar; perhaps these pastors have not read that part yet rather they will prefer to keep us divided and at each other’s throat.
4. Jesus at not time during His earthly ministry advocated for the overthrow of the oppressive Roman government or favoring the installation of a theocratic government even while both the Pharisee and Sadducees where exploiting their own people.
5. Picking and choosing abortion and gay issues among numerous repressions and violations by GOP government is evil to say the lease. There are worst immoral policies than these two that these extremist pastors are ignoring and supporting with impunity.
6. USA is a democracy and not a theocracy. We have a government by the people for the people and definitely not of God by God. Using selective moral code to install unjust and vile men like Bush, Cheney, and McCain etc in the Whitehouse is the greatest evil ever perpetrated against us, the people.
7. Bible condemns the actions of these evil pastors as “Religious Harlotry”. From Prophet Elijah to prophet Micah, all condemned these types of deceptive marriage of convenience between preachers and politicians. The two are like oil and water and should never mix. A pastor becomes bias and ineffective if you turn politician. No preacher can become a good man of God when you turn to an unjust profession of politicking; worst is hiding under God’s as a moral justification. Ordinary citizens have suffered enough under these GOP regimes. Not a single one of these preachers have come out to apologize for not condemning the immoral Iraq war or tax cut to the rich while American’s poor suffers.
8. 33 Pastors preaching hate while hiding under the pulpit is a crime against the message of love that Jesus gave us. IRS and any statutory state should deny them rights to deceive.
9. FYI, I am a devout Christian myself and will never commit abortion or homosexual act, both are immoral in the eyes of God, but Jesus want us to love abortionists and gay people regardless of their actions and lifestyles just like He loved and forgave murderers and prostitutes. Jesus will prefer we intercede for these people and not appear holier than thou.
10. These 33 occult pastors have ignored the evil policies of GOP politicians such as (a) selective capital punishment, (b) unjust flooding of our prisons with minorities, (c) GOP torture policies, (d) financial crisis that was caused by the wealthy and bailout that benefits the wealthy, (e) immoral and illegal wars that has killed millions of innocent Iraqis, (f) A trillion dollars being spent on immoral WAR that could have been spent on hunger, poverty, education and universal healthcare in our won country, (g) destruction of our environment by the GOP led regimes while our 33 occult pastors looked the other way, (h) $13 trillion in immoral debt burden to our children and children's children. (i) GOP tax policy that rubs the poor to give to the rich on the disguise of job creation while leaving a loop hole to outsource jobs that tax cuts should have created (j) Immoral energy policy that has benefited the GOP cronies while price gauging the US general public.

Finally, if these foolish pastors are really interested in saving lives, let them begin with abrogating the unevenly-applied death penalty and opening the prison gates for 2 million minority prisoners the most by any nation in the world. If the politician-pastors are serious and sincere about immorality in our nation, let them begin with sending Bush, Cheney and all these GOP leaders to jail for the crime they committed in Iraq, on energy, environment, poverty, healthcare policies. GOP fail to do oversight on financial, food, energy, military, climate industries and we are less safe due to these negligence and the extremist far right so called pastors have the guts to violate laws on the books in the name of preaching their hate.

Shame of these evil pastors, Shame on them 1000 times. They are not serving the God of love that wrote the bible but their own selfish ends. American is not a Christian nation but a secular nation that belongs to all people not just the Christians. We have a human government based on human constitution and not the bible. Can you imagine what will happen if the Hindu, Buddha, Moslem and all other cult religions insist on their own candidates and policies? It will be chaos, My God and His son Jesus Christ is not the author of confusion and chaos, He is God of peace and love, hence what these far right extremist hypocrites are advocating for is lawlessness, confusion, hate and disorder contrary to the will of God.

The wall of separation between church and state must be preserved.

If these reverends want to go into politics, fine. And if their congregants want to keep them on the job, fine. In pursuing these actions, however, they are showing that they expect to lose their tax-exempt status. And that's up to them.

I challenge everyone involved in this movement to put their money where their mouth is.

Tax fraud, conspiracy, racketeering.

Few things are as nauseating as anyone in the pulpit implying that brethren on the left or the right are less Christian than thou. I walk out when I hear such things. Our faith runs deeper than such differences, which can be arrived at in good faith. It is impious to render unto God what is of Caesar.

Aha... Well, the solution to this political stunt and judicial frame-up is right here:

"I am assuming that 30 or more Christian ministers were systematically counseled by lawyers at the ADF to intentionally violate federal law by preaching a sermon either opposing or endorsing a candidate running for political office."

OK, then, don't put the preachers on trial before an election: take away the tax exemptions, and prosecute or at least disbarr these *lawyers* for legal malpractice.

Tsk. Tricking innocent preachers into tax fraud like that. Bad lawyers. :)

HOLY Mackerel! You mean white folks are in trouble for practicing a long-held African American tradition?

What IS the world coming to?

The issue is much larger than candidate endorsement. The founders of the ADF have preached explicitly and consistently for theocracy - they want their interpretation of biblical law to be enacted into secular law.

I am able to talk about anything I want in this country. I can tell a group of friends who I believe should be voted for and why. BUT I PAY TAXES!!! Tax the $#!^ out of the churches that do this!

It's interesting that Eric Williams didn't voice concern over his denomination, the United Church of Christ, hosting Barack Obama at their national convention (see http://tinyurl.com/5x2kug).

Seems to me that this all about politics (on both sides) since Williams didn't have the courage to challenge his own denomination on this.

What do I make of the ADF goading the IRS "to make its day."

A Cheney Justice Department that they know will not enforce the law against its own right-wing neochristians - a corrupt and decaying intolerant theocracy that was once a great America.

Let's say it's a great idea for churches to endorse candidates. In that case, let's also look at the current political landscape, according to electoral-vote.com:
Electoral college: Obama 286 McCain 252
Senate: Dem 58 GOP 42
House: Dem 240 GOP 194 Ties 1

So if preachers are going to start getting involved in the process, they will want to start siding with the winning candidates, which at the moment are Democrats.

This could be great news for the Democrats.

Be careful what you wish for, since you might get it. A politicized church would also mean a church that stoops to the level of politics.

WE MUST HAVE SEPERATION OF CHURCH & STATE. IF A CHURCH VIOLATES TAX EXAMPT LAW, THE GIVEN CHURCH MUST PAY THE ALL YEARLY TAX AND INTEREST IF ANY.THE CHURCH IS NOT ABOVE U.S.A. LAW.IF THEY PAY THEIR TAX OF THE YEAR, ONLY THEN THEY HAVE TOTAL FREEDOM OF SPEECH LIKE ANYONE ELSE. BY FAILING TO PAY THEIR JUST YEARLY TAX IN THE GIVEN CASE, THEY ARE IN VIOLATION OF THE 4th,7th,8th,and 10th COMMANDMENTS. THEY SHOULD PRATIC WHAT THEY PREACH. NOW IF A ISLM CHUCH DID THIS AS WAS DONE BY CHRISTAN CHURCHES, THERE WHOULD BE MORE THEN BLOGS.

Signs of the times. When "modern Noahs" preach hard, it's a clear sign that doomsday is coming. At our doorstep is an abortionist and pro-gay marriage future president. Waht sign of doom is clearer than that?

Evangelical = evil angel = anti-christ

People are being deceived exactly as the Messiah prophesized. The Evangelical does neither respects God, his Word, nor the U.S. Constitution.

The desperate, misguided, and self-seeking are led astray by money seeking harlots like Joel Ostein, Pat Roberson, Jim Baker et al = evangelicals, = evil angels = anti-christ.

ALAMO
Evangelist and convicted tax evader Tony Alamo says the age of consent is puberty and there's a mandate in the Bible for girls marrying young.

"In the Bible it happened. But girls today, I don't marry 'em if they want to at 14-15 years old," Alamo said Saturday after federal agents raided his southwestern Arkansas compound and placed six girls into state custody. "We won't do it, even though I believe it's OK."

But authorities don't believe it's OK _ and now Alamo faces charges he transported children across state lines for sexual activities, in violation of the Mann Act.

HAGGARD
Saying that he was a “deceiver and liar” who had given in to his dark side, the Rev. Ted Haggard confessed to sexual immorality in a letter read from the pulpit of the megachurch he founded.

The president of the National Evangelical Association, which represents 30 million evangelical Christians, apologized and said “The fact is I am guilty of sexual immorality. I am a deceiver and a liar.”

Haggard, 50, held sway in Washington and condemned homosexuality, after a man claimed to have had drug-fueled homosexual trysts with him.

BAKKERS
Jim Bakker, the slight, shy son of a factory worker, went on to use his microphone to preach rather than to sing. He moved south and, with his wife, Tammy Faye, parlayed their natural telegenic innocence into a Christian broadcasting empire that eventually reached 13 million viewers a day, brought in $129 million in revenues and helped build Heritage USA, a 2,500-acre Christian resort near Fort Mill, S.C.

But in the last two months, much that the Bakkers created has come crashing about them, the result of financial and sexual scandals that forced them to flee their ministry and take refuge behind the walls of their $600,000 mansion in Palm Springs, Calif.

In the latest chapter, officials of Mr. Bakker's former ministry, PTL, disclosed today that a total of $92 million in revenues could not be accounted for and that the ministry's operations were near financial collapse.

ROBERTSON
Pat Robertson is a wealthy man. An extremely wealthy man-some estimates put his net worth at 140 million.

He lives on the top of a Virginia mountain, in a huge mansion with a private airstrip.

He owns the Ice Capades, a small hotel, diamond mines, and until recently, International Family Entertainment, parent company of the Family Channel.

How does a televangelist, who is supposedly involved in non-profit work, manage to create such a fortune for himself? Apparently, between dealing with murderous dictators and ripping off senior citizens, it’s not that hard.

With his ill-gained fortune now in place, Pat experimented with a number of new businesses, the most interesting among them being American Benefits Plus/Kalo Vita. This was a multi-level marketing scheme along the lines of Amway and Avon.

Here, Robertson recruited people across the country (starting in '91-'92), as many as 20,000 people (many of them retirees) to sell coupon books. He told them in training seminars that his program was backed by the Bible, and that they could earn $15,000-$20,000 a month. Things didn't go that well with the coupon books, though, and Pat suddenly decide to change the company into Kalo Vita, and sell vitamins. Problem was, this left people with coupon books unsold, and when they tried to send the books back to AFB/Kalo Vita, they found out that they would not be refunded their money. One 76 year-old woman in in Indianapolis was stuck with $7,000 worth of unsold coupon books, and had to refinance her home. During the subsequent investigation, it was found that CBN had "loaned" money to AFB during its founding, almost 3 million dollars.

YES, these men sound like followers of a religious leader who said to sell all you own and give it to the poor, love your neighbor as yourself.

You have been told in the New Testament what would happen. Paul spoke of it as did the Messiah.

"The come in my name, but I do not know them."

THEY SHOULD HAVE THEIR TAX FREE STATUS DENIED. THEIR TRUE INTERESTS ARE IN AMASSING FORTUNES FOR THEMSELVES BY EXPLOITING THE WEAK HEADED OR SELF-SEEKING.

In their created religions, they offer a cheap interpretation of scripture promising salvations for as if the door was wide open, rather than a narrow gate. Just one simple example of their blasphemy. If their lives are enough to convince you that they are anything but Christian, then you simply prefer blindness to true.

Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?' Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. 11 Depart from me, you evildoers.' (Matt 7: 22-23)