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Biden Not the Faith-Based Answer
In terms of Faith and Values politicking, it's kind of hard to get psyched up about the prospect of Joe Biden coming aboard as Barack Obama's running mate. I can't think of any religious constituency he singularly and automatically delivers to the Senator from Illinois Come to think of it, I can' think of any constituency he singularly and automatically delivers. (Admittedly, that's not the only thing a vice-presidential candidate can bring to the table).
Biden is a Catholic. He is reliably liberal. He is reliably pro-Choice. But nothing I have seen in the general election indicates that Obama has difficulties with reliably liberal, pro-Choice Catholics.
But--note this--there is reason to believe that pro-Choice Catholic politicians can have tremendous difficulties with the Church. These difficulties can become debilitating distractions. The case study here was the candidacy of John Kerry in 2004. As I have noted elsewhere, the "communion denial" stories that trailed him from archdiocese to archdiocese for months mired his campaign in awful publicity.
It's hard, I would surmise, to claim to religious Americans that you share their esteem for the importance of faith when a representative of your own Church is criticizing you at every campaign stop. Although he didn't hang around for long, Rudy Giuliani found himself dogged by the same storyline this past fall.
In terms of getting a faith-based edge, Obama could certainly find a better sidekick than Joe Biden. (He could also probably find a sidekick who hasn't created a Golden Treasury of anti-Obama and pro-McCain quotes for the Maverick's people to bring to our attention).
Up until a few months ago, I was under the impression that it was John McCain, not Barack Obama, who needed a faith-based edge. This is most likely still the case, but in the past few weeks Obama's F and V supremacy has taken a few hits.
For one, John McCain is on (negative) message. His "The One" smear was brazen and raucous, a fratboyish panty raid of an ad. Like all panty raids it was a mixture of playfulness and hostility. Yet, it prompted no comparable payback from the Obama camp. Why?
Also inexplicable was Obama's lackluster performance at the Saddleback Forum this past Saturday. In many ways that was the moment the Democrats had worked years to experience. They learned from the autopsy conducted on Kerry 2004. They got religion. They shunted secularists aside ignominiously. They fielded three frontrunners who could all do God Talk and thump the Bible. (Though one of them, we later learned, was apparently not right with God).
Of this cohort, Senator Obama was the shining star. An authentic Christian, an orator without parallel among his political generation, and a man with an uncanny ability to bond with diverse sorts of religious audiences. In short, his appearance on Saturday night was supposed to be the coming out party for Democrats who vowed to get religion and get the White House.
Yet what happened with Pastor Warren defies explanation. I am still trying to make sense of it. Of all the rhetorical gears that Obama possesses, he locked himself into the lowest, slowest, most placid and subtlety laden of them all. This from a politician who knows how to speak "Evangelical" and knows how to light up a house of worship.
In retrospect we might say that one of the biggest mistakes Obama made in this campaign was accepting Warren's invitation. He was, after all, sure to be confronted with questions about abortion and gay marriage in front of an audience that did not share his views. Recall that John McCain did not accept the invitation to speak at the Compassion Forum in April, possibly because the sponsoring groups had a reputation for being on the more progressive side of things.
A final error was the "cone of silence" debacle (I am a bit amazed that so little attention has been devoted to that scandal--after all, this was a forum about integrity and values). Shouldn't an Obama staffer have been stationed outside the non-existent cone? Or, did the campaign convince itself that no skullduggery could possibly occur within a Church?
In any case, for the first time this election I am wondering if Obama needs a little boost in the F and V department. On this count, Senator Biden, whatever his other virtues might be, does not offer much.
By Jacques Berlinerblau |
August 21, 2008; 1:02 AM ET
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Posted by: VICTORIA | September 9, 2008 1:59 AM
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It wasn't a forum, nor question that lent itself to humor in any way-
McCain answered an earnest and direct question in seriousness-
He tried to slip around it- but was confronted at the end to offer an actual number- (which the original question contained a request for specifically).
As soon as he saw the reaction of the crowd, and Rick Warren- THEN he realized what a mistake he had made-
and tried to pass it off by saying the dems would make him suffer for that statement-
McCAin was caught ans exposed for a moment in one of his 'out of touch' moments-
But, even HE hasn't retracted the statement- nor said it was a joke-
Yes, the veneer slipped- and we got to see the real same old out of touch just doesn't get it republican face-
Just because he was foolish enough to say it-
don't expect people to be foolish enough not to notice.
Posted by: VICTORIA | September 9, 2008 1:47 AM
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Victoria,
I do wish you have enough self respect and advise your candidate to do likewise by not bringing up the "McCain thinks you have to make $5 Million per year to be considered wealthy..." nonsense!
The entire nation and the world saw and heard that that was a humorous comment McCain made and then continued to state that it was a joke and discussed the issue on a serious tenor...
Why do you wish to belittle yourself and your candidate with this obvious cheap shot that only serves to put mud on your own faces...
Have some self respect and Obama sounded awfully cheap by bringing it up on his convention speech How awful for Democrats!
Posted by: Helping hand | August 30, 2008 8:30 PM
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Michelle (and Senator Kennedy) will be speaking at the DNC tonight.
Tomorrow we wll all have a stronger idea who Michele is. (Although isn't it her husband who we should be discussing?)
Kelly, Ill give you a Jeanie-like arms
*
*
* * * * *
crossed,eye blink head nod- **bliiiinnng**
*
*
Consider yourself the unoffical fashionista authority now-
We all eagerly await your next feline growls-
But it would behoove you to keep your paws off of Kennedy- he's going through chemotherapy now you know-
Even cats have their standards.
I always thought Jeanie could whip Samamtha Stevens- Samantha always had all those nonsensical ridiculous rule restricting her...and Jeanie dressed so much more interestingly-
Thanks again Kitty..errr..Kelly-
There wasn't enough mundane fluff here before you showed up.
Posted by: VICTORIA | August 25, 2008 1:45 PM
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It is outright silly to focus on how candidates or their wives spend their PRIVATE wealth, and whether or not a candidate's wife can make it to the finals of Miss Universe contest or become a Hollywood star.
Compare policies, compare policies, compare policies and vote the party of your choice.
Posted by: Anonymous | August 25, 2008 3:18 AM
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O'Victoria, O'Victoria, O'Victoria,
Issues you say??? You cannot even come to grips with the issues of your own religion. How can you possibly come to grips with the issues of leadership and politics????
Again we know you believe in the paranormal. Now how about the your other Islamic beliefs?
Again: Do you believe,
2. That the long-dead Arab did actually talk to the "pretty Gabriel" in the "Gabe" cave and therein received the warmongering and anti-female words now listed in the koran?
3. That Sunnis are superior to Shiites in all aspects of life?
4. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7 800 year-old feud between Sunnis and Shiites give significant credence that suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran?
5. That having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of lust and polygamy?
6. That the condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of anger and greed?
7. And that Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s book, Infidel, is her autobiography and that in the paperback issue, p. 47 the statement:
"Some of the Saudi women in our neighborhood were regularly beaten by their husbands. You could hear them at night. Their screams resounded across the courtyards. "No! Please! By Allah!"
is the truth????
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | August 25, 2008 12:24 AM
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Now let me see about this 'looks' thing. McCain's wife Cindy probably spends about 100 grand a year on facials alone - not that facials would help husband John in the slightest. He's not a pretty guy.....but he is very old. Now tell me again please - someone is preferencing McCain on his appearance?? Given his VP choices, hair plugs are the least of his problems.
So who shall we vote for then? Richest wife, dowdiest wife (although with advanced degrees from Ivy League schools) , biggest lier who models himself after George Bush and with various government scandals to his credit (think Keating 5), or best candidate (also with advanced degrees from Ivy League colleges) and considerable expertise at Constitutional Law?
Now that our 'best candidate' has a strong VP by his side, maybe we can firm up our decision?
And we should remember that Elton John still sings a damn good song, even with hair plugs.
Time to choose.......richest wife, or best candidate to lead the nation.
Posted by: autonomous | August 24, 2008 8:40 PM
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I'm not the only one who noticed Michelle's dress but there is more talk on the web about Biden's hair.
"Joe needs to tell his barber to take a little more off the back and sides. The wind caught his long white wisps and the hairspray present in his hair caused the long tufts to stay standing perpendicular to his head through the whole speech. He looked like Grandpa Munster meets Paulie Walnuts meets George Washington. I'll bet the "visuals" crew were crapping their pants the whole time, wishing they could run up there and fix his damned hair!"
Reminded me of Samuel Alito’s confirmation hearing several years ago. When Biden showed up wearing a hat Olbermann asked “Will that hat hurt his hairplugs?”
Posted by: kelly | August 24, 2008 8:17 PM
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Yeah, Victoria, it seems the 'true faithful' are scraping the bottom of the barrel to avoid the simple fact that Obama and Biden represent a solid team that this country needs... In the real world.
How things are 'dressed up' utterly notwithstanding.
Posted by: Paganplace | August 24, 2008 7:00 PM
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Despite Kelly's efforts to elevate the conversation to Michelle's wardrobe choices, (Meooow)
some of us want to interact on the issues.
What exactly is it about McCain that will bring a change to the whitehouse?
What is his economic plan?
His stance on health care?
What about social security? Does he want to privatize it, like Dubya? We've got the largest population ever poised and ready to retire in the next 4 years-
Social security funds are filled with IOU's from other government agenices that never imagined thie day to pay would come- well it's here folks.
And what exactly is his plan for our nation's security?
Biden has been a mover and shaker in America, and all over the world. getting things done in the Senate and for his constituency.
What , if anything, can anyone point out realistically that McCain has brought to his own constituents, and wouldn't that be a good gauge of his efficacy as leader?
Posted by: VICTORIA | August 24, 2008 6:32 PM
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You seem set in your opinion of the Obamas.
Great but like lots of other people I'm not.
We haven't heard from Michelle O for a long long while. We didn't hear from her yesterday but we saw her either "dressing down" or "dressing like she's just finished baking cookies for Wally and Beaver".
We won't know until this plays out.
I'll be watching to see how she fares tomorrow.
Posted by: kelly | August 24, 2008 6:18 PM
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"I'm sorry if my comment offended you but its not healthy to pretend to be someone or something you are not. I'm willing to give the old Michelle Obama a chance to show up at the convention. But if she is noticibly changed, I may be commenting again."
I think what's offensive is figuring that either set of clothes is presented as 'The Real Michelle Obama' when it's those who reduce politics to a *gossip column* who can't seem to figure out we are not what we wear, or based on that sort of triviality, then get indignant that presumably dressing down once in a while only proves the original trivial assertion.
Posted by: Paganplace | August 24, 2008 5:48 PM
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"Let's bring deep faith and values to a campaign...." by having the candidate's wife pretend to be someone she isn't.
I'm sorry if my comment offended you but its not healthy to pretend to be someone or something you are not. I'm willing to give the old Michelle Obama a chance to show up at the convention. But if she is noticibly changed, I may be commenting again.
Posted by: kelly | August 24, 2008 5:03 PM
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I don't know if the catholics can be depended upon to be the monolithic voting bloc they used to be- but Biden will attract a large white blue collar support that was lacking in Obama's ranks-
Instead of allowing ourselves to be dragged into never resolved abortion arguments- just rememeber that there will bea couple supreme court seats open-
Abortion is not really the overwheming issues that face the american people today-
McCain has no energy policy- no health care intiatives- remember bush vetoed the child health care provisions-
Rightwingers-Don't tell me about your overwhelming concern when your party hypocritically allows children who are already clealry defined living beings the msot basic health care-
Don't talk about the unborn- when the already born are sendng their already born off to fight in a war we were lied into by your party while their own children sit safely in America.
And McCain has stated he agrees with a reinstatement of the draft.
While Joe Biden's son is preparing to go to Iraq to fight this debacle of a war.
Bush has put a timeline in place- whose idea was that?
Obamas.
McCain has suddenly remembered Afghanistan- who remembered first.
Obama.
McCain will give 3.8 BILLION dollars in new tax breaks to big oil-
who benefits from that?
Unless you are making over 5 million a year- consider yourself poor in America.
Even Oobama is poor by McCain's own standars.
Really Kelly- critiquing the fashion and dress of the nominee's wife?
Such a superficial nonsensical meaningless (and catty) tactic worked in the time of June Cleaver-
Just another demonstration of the right trying to drag us back into the past- as long as we aren't looking at the present and asking real questions and noticing the real issues-
renewable energy
security at home on our own streets and neighborhoods
foreign policies that don't make people on the other side of the world want to come and blow us up in the first place-
econcomic relief in the form of clearer credit contracts and mortgage agreements- by law-
health care for every american-
Look at the way anti-trust laws have been abused-
look at the curren tsituaton where we are now required by law to pay for cable-
a vote for McCain is a tightening of the noose of corporations around the throat of americans-
less freedoms- eradication of our civil liberties- the patriot act- mortage crisis- billions and billions of dollars in debt- average american in greater credit card debt - predatory lednign practices- the average income down form 8 years ago- no health care- no jobs- unemployment up-
corporate welfare giveaways onthe back of the taxpayer- a falling apart and failing infrastructure-
whiele our own couyntry's bridges are falling down and airplanes are falling out of the skjy- we borrowmoney from and accept goods from the chinese so we can go to walmart and pay for a failed war that never hsould have occurred in the first place.
Wjat next, an Osama Bin Laden lookalike being paraded out the week before elections?
What else does the right wing have to offer besides fear?
Obama is the anti-christ?
Are we so cowed into fearing everything that we cannot think clearly and see what has happened to our country under Bush?
McCain will guarantee the same.
Posted by: VICTORIA | August 24, 2008 4:56 PM
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"But did you see the shirtdress she was wearing? Its like she raided June Cleaver's closet."
OMFGawdess! It's so clear! Let's bring deep faith and values to a campaign.... By calling a prospective First lady's wardrobe frumpy, after previously calling her vain!
Posted by: Paganplace | August 24, 2008 4:44 PM
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Did anyone else see the new (decidedly quiet) Michelle Obama yesterday. I guess they had to let her out from under the bus for one week. But did you see the shirtdress she was wearing? Its like she raided June Cleaver's closet.
Posted by: kelly | August 24, 2008 3:23 PM
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Yeah, right. Obama should have picked Gravel. With a name like Gravel he's got to be good.
Posted by: BGone | August 24, 2008 1:15 PM
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Obama is to be congratulated on picking Biden - the Hillary whiners need to get over it and get on the band wagon.
Anything less is divisive and self-destructive and the equivilant of a juvenile temper tantrum. These sore losers are theatening to stage anti-Obama rallies in Denver. This is where the DNC needs to step in and take charge of such petulant stupidity.
Obama has greatly enhanced his chances of being elected with Biden as VP - it was never remotely possible that he would select Hillary and for a number of good and obvious reasons. In the end, that would not have been a winning combination.
The election is also about which party will fully take charge of the government after Bush - it was never exclusively about individual personalities although the media would have you believe otherwise.
Aside from his vast foreign policy experience, Biden will bring the Catholic vote - about 50% of which are pro-choice anyway. It still comes down to liberal vs conservative, and the anti-choicers were most likely going to vote for McCain anyway -being one issue voters and all. Unless of course they were consistent in their opposition to all killing - then they've have to vote their democratic conscience and just say 'no' to McCain's 100 year war.
Posted by: autonomous | August 24, 2008 10:07 AM
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For three and a half decades abortion has been marketed as "reproductive choice," as late term contraception. By referring to the growing baby in the womb as a clump of cells/parasite etc, the real nature of abortion has been denied, namely the killing of an unborn child.
When such a propaganda has been around for so long, it is no wonder that it has become part of the normal thinking process and women are able to abort their children without qualms. It is a wonder, considering how aggressively a pro-abortionist propaganda has been propagated for so long that pro-life groups have not given up.
Proper education about what abortion is really about needs to be stepped up. At least consciences that have not yet been hardened by the pro-abortionist propaganda should be made aware and sensitive to the real science concerning abortion.
The hardened responses of pro-abortionists on various threads of this forum, whether believer or atheist, shows that those who have bought into the propaganda over several years are beyond reach.
The hope for change lies with the young who are still uncorrupted by pro-abortion lies.
Posted by: Anonymous | August 24, 2008 7:34 AM
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I am for John McCain.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDVUPqoowf8
Posted by: Average Joe 6 pack | August 24, 2008 5:50 AM
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If as President and VP, Senator Obama and Senator Biden are willing to mobilize all the forces at their disposal to reduce abortions, it is the antidote to their pro-abortion stand which seriously concern Catholics.
Posted by: Anonymous | August 24, 2008 2:52 AM
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O'Victoria, O'Victoria, O'Victoria,
Again we know you believe in the paranormal. Now how about the your other Islamic beliefs?
Again: Do you believe,
2. That the long-dead Arab did actually talk to the "pretty Gabriel" in the "Gabe" cave and therein received the warmongering and anti-female words now listed in the koran?
3. That Sunnis are superior to Shiites in all aspects of life?
4. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7 800 year-old feud between Sunnis and Shiites give significant credence that suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran?
5. That having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of lust and polygamy?
6. That the condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of anger and greed?
7. And that Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s book, Infidel, is her autobiography and that in the paperback issue, p. 47 the statement:
"Some of the Saudi women in our neighborhood were regularly beaten by their husbands. You could hear them at night. Their screams resounded across the courtyards. "No! Please! By Allah!"
is the truth????
Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | August 24, 2008 2:29 AM
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You sound like a bitter little whiner because you know McCain can't win. Open up and swollow.
Posted by: Linda B | August 24, 2008 12:21 AM
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An anti-abortion position is according to pro-abortionists, a "quaint" part of Catholic faith!
An article that examines the issue of abortion from both vantage points - the woman and the child growing in the womb:
"Beyond the legal right; why liberals and feminists don't like to talk about the morality of abortion" by Jason DeParle
Washington Monthly, April, 1989
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1316/is_n3_v21/ai_7537791?tag=artBody;col1
Posted by: Anonymous | August 23, 2008 10:12 PM
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Have many recent posts been deleted? I swear I have put out at least three, and they are no longer here.
Posted by: Arminius | August 23, 2008 6:19 PM
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One guess of mine was wrong (Senator Hillary Clinton) but the thought having a Catholic VP was an important way to get support of Catholics was right.
So an experienced Catholic, Senator Jo Biden as VP. Very wise indeed.
Having a Catholic VP is as close to becoming a Catholic that Senator Obama could get, since Senator Obama's social and religious views, except on abortion, are Catholic.
A pro-choice Catholic can be accepted by those who do not vote based on the abortion issue alone. But when abortion becomes the deal-breaker, it is a different matter.
Posted by: Obama Well Wisher | August 23, 2008 2:31 AM
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Nobama quips-
"On the issue of life- she is one clear thinking dog."
and
"I would definitely vote for this yellow dog if she could only run against Obama"
So, let me try to process this-
We are ascribing cognitive faculties to dogs-
and THEN-
equating that dogs thought processes with McCain.
WOW-
But Iliad's point is even more compelling-
"Species and fetal discrimination notwithstanding, what a “dog” did was act. La China saw a crisis, and moved to resolve the issue."
Species discrimination? Are fetus and canine now also equivalent? (I guess that is the next logical step- dog=person (I'm assuming personhood is conferred by the poster)
Iliad doesn't even bother with the thinking aspect-
stupid thinkers!
Resove your issues by unthinking action!
Suddenly, I am feeling very very confident for Obama.
Nobama- thinking dog=McCain
Iliad- unthinking action = McCain
Species discrimination!
What next Iliad- litigious dogs suing their owners for being neutered?
I am fascinated to see how far these two are willing to take these analogies.
Posted by: VICTORIA | August 22, 2008 4:09 PM
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Victoria,
Species and fetal discrimination notwithstanding, what a “dog” did was act. La China saw a crisis, and moved to resolve the issue.
Obama, on the other hand, in front of millions, relegated his choice to a “higher pay grade” and slipped to pass the buck!
Great, we’ll just wait while Senator Obama, at the age of 47 discovers who and what he will confer with to decide the fate of live-born babies as they die. He hasn’t made up his mind yet! So then I suppose he voted on the senate floor rather mindlessly against life… very confusing, don’t you think?
The story of La China is intended to illustrate and bring to light Obama’s dangerous and vacuous polish while there is a need for active and clear leadership.
Additionally, we humans are informed by nature, both scientifically and morally. We are natural being in a natural context. Thus there is much to appreciate and learn from other species ☺
Posted by: Iliad Terra | August 22, 2008 2:16 PM
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Iliad Terra-
I would definitely vote for this yellow dog if she could only run against Obama.
On the issue of life- she is one clear thinking dog.
Compare her deep compassion for the helpless of another species to Obama's muddled answer to "when does a baby gets human rights."
“Well, uh, you know, I think that whether you’re looking at it from a theological perspective or, uh, a scientific perspective, uh, answering that question with specificity, uh, you know, is, is, uh, above my pay grade.”
Posted by: nobama | August 22, 2008 1:57 PM
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Now when La China has an informed well-considered opinion to offer on energy independence, or a viable health care plan-
THEN I will listen with attention.
Posted by: VICTORIA | August 22, 2008 1:46 PM
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Puppy stories?
So, Iliad Terra informs us that McCain shares the reasoning processes of a dog?
As much as I love dogs- I really don't look to their behavior as a gauge for my own actions, nor a moral compass.
I especially don't want my leaders to do so.
I hope Obama pciks Biden as VP.
Posted by: VICTORIA | August 22, 2008 1:44 PM
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Mr. Obama’s “Pay grade”? La China!
This story was published on BBC online. I think I may have found the individual qualified and deserving of the post Mr. Obama abandoned to a higher “pay grade”…
While Obama flippantly lawyer-speaks the fate of infants, a ‘wolf’ will impact the destiny of man’s world as she rescues ‘Romulus’ from the stainless steel abortion tray.
How can Obama give himself the right to deprive the world of the person who could potentially discover the cure for… or answer to… How can he carelessly authorize the infanticide of humanity’s latent hope?
Anyhow, ultimately this is about profound dignity and reverence… read and connect the dots:
-IAT
story from BBC online:
Argentine dog saves abandoned baby
By Daniel Schweimler
BBC News, Buenos Aires
La China who placed the baby safely with her puppies (Photo courtesy of Clarin)
La China has become a celebrity in her shanty town (Photo courtesy of Clarin)
An eight-year-old dog has touched the hearts of Argentines by saving the life of an abandoned baby, placing him safely alongside her own new puppies.
The country’s media are calling him “the miracle baby”.
He was born prematurely to a 14-year-old girl in a shanty town outside the capital, Buenos Aires.
She is said to have panicked and abandoned the boy in a field, surrounded by wooden boxes and rubbish.
Then along came La China, the dog which somehow picked up the baby and carried him 50m to place him alongside her own puppies.
The dog’s owner heard the child crying and found him covered with a rag.
The baby, weighing 4kg (8lb 13oz), had some slight injuries, but no bite marks. The owner called the police and the child is now being looked after by the authorities, while a decision is taken about his future.
The frightened mother appeared shortly after her baby was found.
The Argentine media has descended on the shanty town, talking of “the Argentine Romulus and Remus”, the founders of Rome, abandoned as babies and rescued by a wolf, nearly 3,000 years ago.
La China, worried about her own puppies, is reported to be petrified by her new found fame, and her owner says he is worried that she is not eating.
Posted by: Iliad Terra | August 22, 2008 12:57 PM
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For those confused over Obama's position on how to handle the aborted fetus/premature child born alive during an abortion:
"To briefly recap: Obama’s initial opposition to the born-alive legislation was a concern that such a law would undermine Roe v. Wade. Based on his comments at the time, he apparently reasoned that granting personhood to an aborted fetus, albeit one with a heartbeat, was a subterfuge tactic aimed at granting personhood to a fetus.
Not without cause did he reach that conclusion. Most observers of the abortion debate understand that the legislation was fueled in part by hopes that personhood eventually might find its way back inside the birth canal. This may have been a tactic, but so it goes.
It has always seemed to me perfectly appropriate that we find terminating human life troublesome. Although settled as the law of the land, abortion at any point should be an unsettling proposition. The fact that abortion refuses to recuse itself from present politics merely confirms that many Americans are not ready to be gods.
Obama, perhaps, excluded. When asked to explain his position as a state legislator, Obama said he would have voted for the law had it included a neutrality clause — similar to one added to the federal law — affirming that the bill would not impact Roe v. Wade.
But the Illinois legislation in final form did include such a neutrality clause, prompting charges that Obama DELIBERATELY LIED. Or did he MERELY MISREMEMBER, as often happens in politics?
What did Obama mean and when did he mean it?
Alas, the more he tries to explain his position, the more muddled the picture becomes and the more confused voters are. The most revealing answer may have come when pastor Rick Warren asked the Illinois senator when a baby gets human rights.
“Well, uh, you know, I think that whether you’re looking at it from a theological perspective or, uh, a scientific perspective, uh, answering that question with specificity, uh, you know, is, is, uh, above my pay grade.”
Well, uh, not really.
Yes, Warren’s question was complicated, especially if you’re a politician afraid of saying the wrong thing. But the answer is really pretty simple. It’s whatever one thinks. It is not above anyone’s pay grade to be honest.
Instead, Obama punted."
Thank you Kathleen Parker..
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=OGI5NTRhMTBlNjllMGNkNzBmNDE5NWRmMjU5MWQ4YTM=
Posted by: james | August 22, 2008 12:26 PM
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"Spoken like a true Obamaite. Go to the head of the class"
So say you after cutting out all the context of who you quoted. *Just* like a true Rovian.
Posted by: Paganplace | August 22, 2008 12:25 PM
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Terra Gazelle:
Never underestimate the stupidity of the people.
Haters are easy to be used...you fall into a trap, you vote against your own best interest. Clinging to guns, god and fear.
********************************************
Spoken like a true Obamaite. Go to the head of the class.
Posted by: Rick | August 22, 2008 11:41 AM
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Well, NoSolid...
Maybe it's time to take the high ground about people turning religion into a 'tactic.'
We desperately need *good government,* and that's really what this election, like the last two, will be about when it's all over.
Posted by: Paganplace | August 22, 2008 11:37 AM
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"Frankly, I think we should run with the guys we *actually want* and be sure to get the vote out."
That's honest- if ill-informed as a viable winning tactic.
Posted by: no solid ground | August 22, 2008 11:16 AM
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Well, Professor, I've been hoping it'd be Biden all along, cause I think he's simply a great man for the job. When you say this:
"But--note this--there is reason to believe that pro-Choice Catholic politicians can have tremendous difficulties with the Church. These difficulties can become debilitating distractions. The case study here was the candidacy of John Kerry in 2004. As I have noted elsewhere, the "communion denial" stories that trailed him from archdiocese to archdiocese for months mired his campaign in awful publicity."
...I have to ask, "So what are we going to do, let the Church (Or a couple political bishops who can give the institution plausible deniability?) stop any liberal from even *running?*
Have you noticed who the opposition is?
Republicans. They'll try to turn *anything* into a 'debilitating distraction.' They're already trying to turn the whole *campaign* into nothing but a series of 'debilitating distractions.'
Even if they have to make them up.
Frankly, I think we should run with the guys we *actually want* and be sure to get the vote out.
Posted by: Paganplace | August 22, 2008 11:02 AM
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Anonymous - it matters because McCain is trying to paint Obama as an "elitist" who owns a "million-dollar mansion" (which looks more like the large houses built in cities around the 1900's), drinks lattes and eats arugula. Yeah, he's a yuppie. So what? That doesn't mean that he can't understand how bad the Middle Class has it these days. Oh, and that "private beach in Hawaii"? Owned by an old high school friend. He crew up in the 50th State. His "Hawaii vacation" was the equivalent of me and my husband going to Florida to visit his mother. Big deal.
Meanwhile, McMansion and Budweiser Barbie own multiple, multi-million-dollar properties - one of which was featured in "Architectural Digest" magazine in 2005. McCain got where he is by being the son and grandson of Admirals. Literally, because he would have been washed out of Annapolis if he wasn't. When 42% of all of the home resales in Maricopa County, AZ are the result of foreclosures, it doesn't go over well with the Budweiser-drinking NASCAR folks that their hero owns 7-10 homes.
Posted by: Athena | August 22, 2008 10:51 AM
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We been duped!!!
We let the Republicans get away with their statement “life begins at conception”. Election after election and year after year we buy into that statement. If you think about what that mean and how the government currently handles this, we are totally duped.
Our tax code do not allow for any deductions for life at conception. Neither will an insurance company write you a life insurance policy for an unborn fetus.
Example: If you became pregnant in April and have your baby in January, it will be 21 months before you can claim that child and get a tax credit for that child. The baby has to be born before you can get a tax credit or a life insurance policy on that baby.
That doesn’t look or sound like life begins at conception. It is life begin when the child is born and that's the way our government allow for deductions.
How many tax policies were introduced by the Republicans over the years to give a parent a tax credit when they became pregnant? I doubt any. We have been duped!!!
Posted by: dudna | August 22, 2008 10:33 AM
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Yea...the Jews wanted LBJ on the ticket, and look how that worked out for JFK...they snuffed him when he wouldnt go along with the whole Vietnam thing, nor would he re-claim Cuba for the Jewish mafia and Zio-clowns in the FBI CIA and state department, so they killed him.
Obama appears poised to choose his own VP, irrespective of what the Jewish controlled media would have him do...It would appear we may get an America first president this time...
Posted by: Shootingsparks | August 22, 2008 10:18 AM
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What is the difference between the positions of Tim Kaine and Joe Biden, both Roman Catholics, on abortion?
Posted by: Chas F | August 22, 2008 9:57 AM
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"The fact is that, although Mr. Berlinerblau does speak out against the emphasis on religion he and the others who know better aren't consistent. If we didn't have all this emphasis on religion he and all the others wouldn't be published every week in the Washington Post. Sir, why don't you and those who oppose these religious litmus tests speak out consistently on the absolute threat of all this religiosity?"
Its fascinating to watch the erosion of power. Atheist Berlinerblau is hired to chronicle the left's strategy to display their "faith" in this election and do some "church" to hopefully win enough votes to take the WH back- only the baggage of their ethics and ideology keeps sinking them in the mud. And next week promises to be another bumpy slide to the bottom.
Posted by: no solid ground | August 22, 2008 9:55 AM
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Barry lucked-out having to face this hostile (a group of America's "Most Disgusting")scum on the night that the world was watching Phelps make history.
Not enough attention to the "cone" lie true, but for me worse yet was "who was present for and witnessed the not famous enough COIN TOSS ??I would be willing to bet that there never was any such"toss."
WARREN A LYING CHRISTIAN
Posted by: Gerald Applebaum | August 22, 2008 9:30 AM
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Why in the world is professor of Jewish Civilization from the School of Foreign Service participating in this blog? He is apparently not a theologian or a person of faith and has an obvious hostility to evangelicals. This is not a helpful person to employ on this project.
Posted by: Hoya84 | August 22, 2008 9:28 AM
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Yes, that's right, look to the church for the answer to the election! The dumbing of America has now been completed. Anyone who gives power to the Catholic church doesn't understand their relationship to God or whatever they may perceive that to be.
The word "religion" comes from the Latin root meaning "to connect". Connecting to a church that is the largest financial institution in the world and takes money from the poor everyday is not my idea of morality. Nor is the practice of preying on young men and then buying them off or trying to cover it up.
The church instituted the vow of celibacy in order to insure that priests did not leave worldly goods to their offspring; it was simply a matter of material goods.
Go Pope whatever your name is
Posted by: Michael | August 22, 2008 8:42 AM
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You can't allow the abuse of your children by your priests and at the same time call yourself a true Catholic....Please stop judging others (Biden) with your warped sense of values...how can one rail against pro-choice Catholics and at the same time turn a blind eye when it comes to the abusive treatment of your own children?
I think Joe Biden would be a fine VP.
Posted by: DickNH | August 22, 2008 8:41 AM
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Many Catholics have been so turned off by their church because, for many years, it has allowed the abuse of its children by predatory priests, shuffling them from parish to parish...Cardinal Law, from Boston, was even promoted to a very high position in Rome after having blindly allowed this disturbing practice...the CHURCH itself is responsible for its own hypocricy...why are these people allowed to speak as "holy experts", when it SOOOOO obvious that they can't clean up their own "house"? I am a non-practicing Catholic because of the hypocritical judgment of others from these so-called "holy experts"...they think they ARE God, not just his servants.
Posted by: DickNH | August 22, 2008 8:30 AM
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Astonishing...a Jew doesnt like Biden...who would you suggest, you invidious propagandist...??? Stunned you didnt take the opportunity to make another pitch for Jewess Hillary Rodham...
And who are you to opine on the Catholic church??
jackass...
Posted by: Shootingsparks | August 22, 2008 8:26 AM
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Why do you and others drag credible and educated Democratic Candidates under the microscope? The Republican idiot acting as President has been an eight year embarassment to our country. Bush Sr. wasn,t much better, and Regan was nothing but a Puppet without strings. I would suggest cultivating a worthy candidate to represent your party. McCain is a yes man bordering on old age lost of memory. He too will have another thief like Chaney calling the plays from the side lines. Leave the Democrats alone. They don,t need any help from idiots that don,t know the definition of Democracy.
Posted by: Winston | August 22, 2008 8:22 AM
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... contemplating what is best for country (on a range of issues) more noble than focusing the singular (contentious) issue of a (myopic) special interest group... i.e. "god vote".
Posted by: blandrum | August 22, 2008 8:12 AM
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I consider myself Catholic and pro-choice.
Humanity has been pro-choice for all of eternity beit with a safe procedure or unsafe procedure.
The woman has the ultimate choice, even if one decides to lock her up in the basement she still has a choice. Arguing against eternity is pretty pointless and those who are adament just make their own and others lives far more difficult than they should be (Bravo for that?). Is just a pointless argument for some to pontificate on how they are morally superior to others when they are actually just wasting everyone's bandwisth.
Posted by: EMR | August 22, 2008 7:55 AM
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you cannot be in favor of abortion and really be a catholic. you can say you are, but your not.
Posted by: Anonymous | August 22, 2008 7:40 AM
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lil hussein is an empty shirt.
he quotes the bible about what you do for the least of my people and he has a brother living in a mid hut on 1.00 a month. cant lil hussein send him 100.00. no, but he can raise your taxes and spend the money on himself.
and what i though would have been an easy question, when does a human get rights. even a die hard abortionist like him could have said at birth, until i found that he voted against a bill that would prevant aborted babies from being left to die if the abortion resulted in their actually being born alive. of course he lied about it but in this modern age we have the bills, his votes, and his arguing against it.
no one alive can save him from that one.
Posted by: Anonymous | August 22, 2008 7:37 AM
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News flash! The God vote is solidly Republican. Why do you waste our time and precious energy on such drivel as this?
Posted by: stick | August 22, 2008 7:34 AM
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An elected official is supposed to uphold the law and the Constitution---not shove his personal opinions down the throats of every citizen. It takes more courage and integrity for a Catholic Biden to vote pro choice---in line with the current laws---then it does for a Bush to destroy the Constitution with his phony religious bigotry.
Posted by: Donna Saggia | August 22, 2008 7:34 AM
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Honestly, how do people such as Berlinerblau get to the positions they hold? This dribble about Biden reads as if written by an elementary school pupil. This guy Berlinerblau should be sent away with George Bush to an abandoned island where they could enjoy each others company.
Posted by: Ed | August 22, 2008 7:26 AM
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I am just so very sick of the obscene deference paid to religion in this election. (the RIGHT religion of course!) When are we going to say ENOUGH! If all these Faith and Values actually EXISTED in America wouldn't this be a kinder, gentler, safer place to live rather than what it has devolved into?
I care deeply about healthcare and education and jobs...when can I demand to be catered to and dictate elections??? Why does a constituency that enthusiastically supported a grossly failed, criminal administration get to keep calling the shots?? These are people who brought us the worst President and some of the most corrupt Congressmen in history!!!! Why are they still dictating our elections????????
The fact is that, although Mr. Berlinerblau does speak out against the emphasis on religion he and the others who know better aren't consistent. If we didn't have all this emphasis on religion he and all the others wouldn't be published every week in the Washington Post. Sir, why don't you and those who oppose these religious litmus tests speak out consistently on the absolute threat of all this religiosity?
Again I say...WHY ARE PEOPLE WHO ELECTED GEORGE BUSH, DICK CHENEY, AND TOM DELAY ALLOWED TO CONTINUE DICTATING ELECTATIONS!
Posted by: P White | August 22, 2008 7:01 AM
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With all due respect, I don't think that Obama's main concern should be faith. Obama desperately needs someone who can connect to the working class. He also needs someone with deep knowledge of foreign policy. And finally, he needs someone who is direct-blunt, even.
Biden fills the bill nicely on all of the above. Obama isn't going to be elected unless he can move Hillary voters and Independents. Biden is his best hope for that.
You are no doubt right that Biden does not offer much in the way of attracting Faith voters. But I would argue that is not Obama's main concern right now.
Posted by: mollycoddle | August 22, 2008 6:48 AM
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America will one day have Militant Christians a.k.a. U.S. Military, U.S. Government, Blackwater, (to name a few) running the county,( though we are closer to this than most Americans know, however the rest of the world already knows because they have felt the “wrath” of the “god” the Fundamentalist Christians worship).
We have already seen this with the Katrina disaster, and throughout the world, thanks to the U.S. government raping American taxpayers of all their money to make the U.S.A. an Imperialist Theocracy.
“The West” is dominated by Fundamental Christianity while the “Middle East” is being motivated by this fact, is being run by Fundamental Muslims, leaving the rest of the world at the hands of two psychotic groups of brainwashed people that want to take over the world and will kill anyone in their way.
“The supreme document of our country is the Constitution, which to the dismay of the Religious Right is thoroughly secular….And then there is that pesky Treaty with Tripoli,(1),(2), where it was officially stated in flat, direct terms that our country was not founded as a Christian Nation.”
~ Why the Religious Right is Wrong About Separation of Church and State http://www.freethoughtassociation.org/minutes/2003/Jun25-2003.htm
Notes:
1. “As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion".~ Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11
2. “This document was endorsed by Secretary of State Timothy Pickering and President John Adams. It was then sent to the Senate for ratification; the vote was unanimous.” ~ Our Godless Constitution, By Brooke Allen. February 3, 2005 http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050221/allen
Posted by: Corey Mondello | August 22, 2008 6:28 AM
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Three questions:
1) How did the Dems get themselves into a situation where they become the party of abortion? Why are sincere Catholics forced to accept dead babies along with universal healthcare? What genius allowed this to happen?
2) Why cannot the Moderators of "On Faith" protect "Catholic America"? JJ--a notorious spammer--has badly damaged both Prof S-A's pieces.
3) How does the Georgetown blog prevent his entry?
Posted by: Anonymous | August 22, 2008 5:50 AM
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Oh my goodness! What is it they say? . . . If it quacks, if it swims, if it has feathers, it's probably a duck! No doubt, Mr. "Thumpin' it," you're one of those rightious Republicans. I will pray for you.
Posted by: Jim Michie | August 22, 2008 5:48 AM
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Huckabee is my guess. Veeps are told to keep their powder dry until called upon.
Posted by: Huckleberry Hinn | August 22, 2008 5:14 AM
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The problem with democrats participating in religious forums is that they, and the pundits, do not know how to judge them. How can anyone with a modicum of religious/spiritual inklings not find something wrong with McCain’s glib responses? Again, you can’t speak about something you do not understand.
Posted by: Cobbi | August 22, 2008 3:53 AM
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Be fair in the assessment of candidates.
Both are politicians doing their bit as best as they can. Senator McCain has a past as a soldier which Senator Obama does not.
Senator Obama has attracted a cult following which makes people blind to his very human qualities as an ambitious politician.
Posted by: Anonymous | August 22, 2008 3:09 AM
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Be fair in the assessment of candidates.
Both are politicians doing their bit as best as they can. Senator McCain has a past as a soldier which Senator Obama does not.
Senator Obama has attracted a cult following which makes people blind to his very human qualities as an ambitious politician.
Posted by: Anonymous | August 22, 2008 3:09 AM
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Athena:
Actually, McCain and his wife own 10 houses and condos.
August 21, 2008 1:41 PM
---------------------
Can it be it is because he comes from a family of high ranking soldiers, is much older than Senator Obama and married a rich woman?
Unless it is a crime to be born into a family which has some money, to marry a rich woman before one has entered politics, and has lived long enough to accumulate some money of one's own...why should Senator McCain not be entitled to his money?
Senator Obama has enough money in keeping with his age, the money he and his wife has earned. He has not adopted the life of a pauper out of idealism but lives in as much luxury in proportion to his wealth.
Posted by: Anonymous | August 22, 2008 3:06 AM
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Cordelia- I did google mccain trollop wife- http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=mccain+trollop+wife&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8
thats the front page- take your pick-
Posted by: VICTORIA | August 22, 2008 2:32 AM
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with respect, I must ask what difference a pro-life v.p. could possibly have on true believers? rick warren's "deal breaker" statement did not seem to offer any room for any "bufferin" additives when taking his litmus test.
Posted by: kelly scott | August 22, 2008 2:23 AM
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Joe Biden is a problematic choice for VP not because of his religion, but for pragmatic reasons regarding his ability and intelligence. There are countless examples of shortcomings over the years so I won't belabour it.
This article, however, really misses the actual electoral dynamics of the last several elections. Catholics that consider the abortion issue a major voting decision factor are not in play - on either side. The older working class catholics who aren't perhaps that comfortable with un restricted abortion and still pay some attention to what the church has to say in the political context are going to be more influenced by the economic issues against the, let's be frank, racial considerations.
Posted by: CW | August 22, 2008 1:57 AM
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yep. faith and values, that's what we need more of. someone who is president that believes the fairy tales set forth by the good people who wrote the bible... 1000 years before people realized the earth wasn't flat after all.
how can grown men and women believe this garbage? people, where are your critical thinking skills? come on-- get real!
a vast majority of americans are idiots. their preoccupation with the mysticism and hocus-pocus of religion is a principal reason this country is going down the tubes.
Posted by: goddarn | August 22, 2008 1:52 AM
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WOW!!! I hate to tell you, but there are a lot of us catholics who are pro-choice.
If republicans REALLY want to stop abortions then start talking about health care, education, child care etc!!!!!
HaHa! For republicans it's easier to post bumper stickers that say " If you breed um you feed um"
Republicans will NEVER repeal Roe v Wade because it's such a great wedge issue!!!!
Posted by: JAC | August 22, 2008 1:50 AM
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Biden praised Rumsfeld on Charlie Rose when the invasion started and things looked good, then after Abu Ghareb he turned on Donny... Biden is a used car salesman in a $1000 suit.
Posted by: danny | August 22, 2008 1:39 AM
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Thanks Anon- it is less than 2 minutes long-
http://newmexicoindependent.com/view/mccain-on-the-draft
I posted the right wing rebuttal out of a sense of fairness to present both sides-
But one has to wonder- if McCain believes the draft should be reinstated, why is a rebuttal necessary?
I am interested to see what he says about this tomorrow.
It won't be his, or his "friends" children who go to Iran, or Georgia (caspian oil pipeline runs through there)- it will be mine- or some other poor american- especially since the celing is 5 million-
I worked for a long time with vietnam vets- I worry and wonder what will happen to these kids when they finally do get back home-
George and Condoleeza stated today that they want to set a timeline to get out of Iraq. ( I remember someone ELSE saying that)
He sure did put off thinking about his legacy until the last minute, didn't he? And now it seems they are really really distancing themselves from their own GOP hopeful nominee-
Why are people talking about abortion of all things?
No one even talks about the recession anymore- as if not saying the word- makes it magically not exist-
Maybe instead of expending so much energy on banies who arent even on the planet- we could give a little attention the the next generation-
let's educate them- not send them to die.
Posted by: VICTORIA | August 22, 2008 1:04 AM
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This column is idiotic. A major university pays this guy?
Posted by: John | August 22, 2008 1:02 AM
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I'm having a problem here and hopefully some bright, young Republican can help me.
I'm hearing quite a few put downs from the right about Biden being Catholic, yet Pro-Choice.
How come I'm not hearing this same righteous (pun intended) indignation about the Republicans and the death penalty? Have you ever heard of "Thou shalt not kill?"
Personally, I'll accept my penance for my sins on Judgment Day, and until the Good Lord comes down and explains to us all "when life really begins" rather than an interpretation of the Bible from a bunch of know nothings, I'll try to stay out of other peoples business.
You should try that also!
Posted by: Hello | August 22, 2008 12:48 AM
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Victoria,
You are right, the question was at the end of a long statement. McCain heard her out and then said he could only agree with her.
I thought at first that he might have heard something else, but I do not know how.
I watch all the townhalls and rallies I can. I have XM radio so it allows me to keep track of who is saying what when it is not telivised...McCain talks more about Obama then about what he wants to do as Prez. And he is boreing...! His "My Friends" drives me bonkers. I can not imagine him as Prez..what a horror!
He will have to make Lieberman his VP to whisper in his ear, see even then it takes a Democrate, even a rat of a Dem, to fix what a republican does.
terra
Posted by: Anonymous | August 22, 2008 12:12 AM
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Well Jacques, it would appear that the Obama Brain trust is a little short on sense. And once again, when given the opportunity to appear as that different sort of politician he and his supporters are always touting, he came off as the same sort of temporizing wishy- washy-scared-to-death-he-might- offend-someone political hack the left has foisted on us for the last twenty years excepting of course Bill Clinton who seemingly doesn't care who he offends.
Posted by: Garyd | August 21, 2008 11:49 PM
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donbl,
What stupid words?
I saw it and I thought Obama was thoughtful and unlike McCain with his bumper sticker answers,was honest.
terra
Posted by: Terra Gazelle | August 21, 2008 10:54 PM
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McCain to insitute draft? Nope says the Atlantic Monthly-
http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/08/does_mccain_favor_a_draft_nope.php
http://newmexicoindependent.com/view/mccain-on-the-draft
Here is what is wrong with the reasoning of Ambinder- his point is that McCain only responded to the general question- but the wona's (loong) statement ends with re-instituting the draft-
anyone have an opinion?
Posted by: VICTORIA | August 21, 2008 10:49 PM
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Dave,
There was only two votes on the BAIPA...and it was only to cut Choice. There was already a law in Ill that all babies once born, no matter how or when, has to be cared for. That video was a lie. It is so easy to make a vid say what you want.
Obama is a proud daddy of two daughters...he adores them and they love him. Why is it that he is being singled out with this lie? He has a 100% with the Children's Defence Fund...It is Rovian. Nothing new to the rethugs...and people will still fall for it. Why? Because McCain will put in at least one maybe two Supreme court Justices that will end Rowe V. Wade. He will also give more tax cuts to the rich and more to big oil, and to do that Obama must be finished off.
Never underestimate the stupidity of the people.
Obama could be makeing big bucks writing or being a top notch lawyer...he has been asked to take tenure at Harvard as a professor...he chose to be a Commuunity Organizer instead of working in a law firm making alot of money...But you believe the worse of him..why? Why do you not blather about the other people, Like the Illinois Medical Ass. that did not vote for those bills?
You people have a problem but it is not so grand as saving any fetus...it's more like color, and the republicans are useing it...just like some here will use religion against Biden if he is the VP. Just like when people thought Obama was Muslim, then when he proved he was not, something else had to be tried. Haters are easy to be used...you fall into a trap, you vote against your own best interest. Clinging to guns, god and fear.
http://www.truthfightsback.com/site/smear/248/
Posted by: Terra Gazelle | August 21, 2008 10:46 PM
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JB
1. The constitution prohibits a "religious test"
for elected officials. What is this nonsense
Rick Warren stuff anyway.
2. The American people are unsufferably ignorant-
most get their news from (biased- corporate- owned)TV. Many get it from single sources like Rush Limbaugh- whom the press keeps promoting by quoting him all the time. The most popular "newsman" is Jon Stewart. What does that tell you.
3. Pro life? Dont make me laugh. What is the church or McCain or any Republican going to do?
Imprison doctors and women? Please. Because they are mean and mean-spirited people they will just make it harder for women to obtain abortions.
4. The Republican ethos of "keep the people ignorant" is evident in their reluctance to let
sex ed be taught. It's like never teaching someone how to drive then putting them in a car and out on the highway.
5. There are millions of Christians who practice birth control.
6. I quote GHANDI- I like your Christ. I do NOT
like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ.
Posted by: Robert Summers | August 21, 2008 10:46 PM
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An amazingly confused viewpoint from this author.
1) America is chock full of Catholics who don't subscribe to the Pope's view of his own religion. Biden, like Kerry, is a charter member of this group. An Obama VP needn't 'deliver' a constituency in the traditional sense, because Obama isn't a traditional candidate.
2) Appearing at Rick Warren's church -- on conservative home turf -- and doing as well as he did, is an illustration of exactly how uninspiring most evangelicals find John McCain. The Republican nominee is a big disappointment to this group. Obama didn't need to convert the church audience -- his target was the TV viewer.
Posted by: Samson151 | August 21, 2008 10:29 PM
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Joe Biden for VP! Is that Plagarism Joe? No integrity, he fits right into the Dem mold. Bring him on.
Posted by: Rick | August 21, 2008 10:22 PM
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Daniel Patrick Moynihan, the New York senator of happy memory, once said: People are entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts. I wonder then how politicions, stating they are Catholics, can openly defy the Church on the matter of abortion? If you favor or condone abortion, you are not a Catholic, in fact, and to parade as such gives you another name: hypocrite.
I wouldn't vote for such a person, ever. You either are something or you're not. If such a major tenet can be casually tossed aside, what portion of the U. S. Constitution would they choose to disdain? I guess the answer is it depends on what the latest political poll states.
Posted by: Rodin | August 21, 2008 10:08 PM
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Jacques, you are too in love with Obama to objectively write any articles for Newsweek.
The cone of silence did not put the stupid words into Obama's mouth. Quit looking for a reason that your politician failed you.
Rule of thumb: NEVER fall in love with any politician as they will break your heart.
Posted by: donbl | August 21, 2008 9:57 PM
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Judy-in-TX:
You rightly said:
We're voting for the good of the whole country.
We're sick of this two-faced contemptible administration and those who support it.
It is not a "sin" to vote our conscience.
Me: please know that you are not alone. We must shut the door forever on the horror that the current administration of knuckle-draggers has inflicted on America and the world.
Posted by: Arminius | August 21, 2008 9:30 PM
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I appreciate your interest in reporting the story of faith and politics. Unfortunately, I think you missed a major part of this story. Although Biden is pro-choice on Roe, he has consistently voted against public financing of abortions and late term abortions and asserts that life begins at conception. I think you should have dug a little deeper before simplistically labeling Biden pro-choice. The Christian Science Monitor reported this story a year ago:
Posted by: James | August 21, 2008 9:28 PM
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Absolute no one gives a rat's patootie what you think about Obama's, or Biden's, or McCain's, or whoever's faith.
Lame.
Posted by: Anonymous | August 21, 2008 9:13 PM
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Google the words: mccain trollop wife ...and you will read a story that stunned even jaded me. McCain has no control over his mouth. He is puerile ("Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran") and that is why he cannot be president of a superpower that has its finger in every pie across the globe.
Posted by: Cordelia | August 21, 2008 9:10 PM
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Who cares what Berlinerblau thinks? He has to stir up some crap involving religion to sell newspapers.
Religion does not belong in government. It belongs in the churches and in the homes of people who want it.
The reason abortion is a huge issue for the religious is because religious people seldom think for themselves. If they did they would question their faith in a diety.
It is much easier to look for a YES or a No on the one issue and vote accordingly.
I think people who believe in a god should not even be allowed to vote. Voting requires thought about the issues. Religion requires not thinking.
Posted by: MC | August 21, 2008 9:10 PM
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The best bet for VP is Mark Warner. He is Presidential material. He's a consensus builder. Biden is not.
Posted by: Cordelia | August 21, 2008 9:04 PM
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Who the hell are you, to pass judgement on another mans values or morals, you pompous A@@! Are you God? or better still the new Jesus? You so called Christians, amaze me!
Posted by: nallcando | August 21, 2008 9:02 PM
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Dr Don Key:
You have spoken true and well about the sad state of conservative religion, that non-thinking ally of the Republlicans. It is readily apparent to anyone familiar with the Gospels that these benighted people have apparently never read them. They are mired in the restrictive laws and warfare horrors of the OT, and in the bigotry that any literal interpretation of Revelation induces. None of them seems to have a clue about what Jesus really taught.
Posted by: Arminius | August 21, 2008 8:59 PM
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AUGUST 21, 2008 3:42 PM
JERRY RUBIN:
"But that is OK, because he said he was "born again" after his drinking, drugs, avoiding duty in the military, etc."
==
I understand that you were referring to Bush in the quote above.
After the Saddleback Forum, I learned that McCain, who grew up Episcopalian and now attends a Baptist church, actually stated he was never baptized.
So he can't be "born-again" -- as he pretends.
But all the right-wing pious religious suckers will follow him like lemmings over the economic cliff to oblivion, taking all of us with them.
I inquired of our local Catholic bishop whether I can vote for the best candidate, no matter party affiliation?
He replied that it is up to every voter to weigh the question: who will be hurt more, and how many?
Who will be helped more, and how many?
I know what the right-wingers estimate as to the number of abortions performed in the U.S. each year (which I believe is high due to the lack of availability of abortion services around the country).
We have 300-million people in this country, including an increasing number of elderly and children.
How can this vote come down to this single issue?
It can't.
Thanks to the 8 profligate years of squandering our treasure in this country, every child born in the U.S. now owes over $30,000. at birth -- their legacy of the "original sin" of the Bush administration to their arrogance and greed.
So, balancing it all out is a whole lot easier than I thought it would be.
Many years ago, I worked for the state, administering old age assistance for the elderly poor.
I've had the unpleasant task of finding some of my clients either dead or dying, when I've been summoned by neighbors, friends or relatives living out of town -- some on medicare, but too poor or too weak to get to medical help.
You know about those 47-million who have no health insurance?
I have a good friend, whose sister, now deceased, had no health insurance.
She didn't seek help until it was way too late and she died of cancer at 45 years of age, leaving a grieving husband and a 16-year-old daughter.
It's not just the blood of our soldiers who are on the hands of the neo-cons; the blood of many suffering Americans are, as well.
They suffer and die quietly and silently; nobody thinks about them.
The "born-agains" would rather expend their energy and money standing in the middle split of a high-end neighborhood holding placards protesting Roe v. Wade and feeling ever so much holier-than-thou.
That's what I told my bishop.
He told me to vote as I saw the needs of the country and not to worry about it.
We have a good, kindly, generous and saintly bishop.
He knows.
And we know too.
We've studied all the issues.
We're voting for the good of the whole country.
We're sick of this two-faced contemptible administration and those who support it.
It is not a "sin" to vote our conscience.
Posted by: Judy-in-TX | August 21, 2008 8:57 PM
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Samantha, you delightfully said:
I want to add also, apropos of almost nothing, that George Carlin once said in his act, "Have you ever noticed that the women who are against abortion are women you wouldn't want to f**k in the first place, man?.... There is such balance in nature!"
And right you are! Even this old guy knows that is true! I must have laughed for several minutes, thanks for making my evening!
Posted by: Arminius | August 21, 2008 8:52 PM
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I completely agree w/u one fundamental point.
Obama should never have accepted. This forum is like Fox for crying out loud. For a rational, objective thinker it was like debating at a star trek convention by putting on the costume and pretending to be just as over the top as the crowd. Obama is a spiritual man but not a nut class robot manipulator like the so called religious right maniacs attracted to hog calls like this debate.
So,Barak, I say, give their next bait-drop a miss, stay true to your values and express yourself but forget casting pearls before swine like this little caucus of evil.
Keep going, stay true.
JP
Posted by: jp10jp | August 21, 2008 8:40 PM
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I want to add also, apropos of almost nothing, that George Carlin once said in his act, "Have you ever noticed that the women who are against abortion are women you wouldn't want to f**k in the first place, man?.... There is such balance in nature!"
Posted by: Samantha | August 21, 2008 8:27 PM
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Not only is McCane a tired old man, but he is a typical career politician. Most people who actually work for a living don't have 7 houses, $500 shoes, or a wife worth $100M. Aside from flipflopping on his opinion of the radical Republican religious right (he got it right the first time), he's living the life of an eccentric billionaire.
Posted by: Dr. Don Key | August 21, 2008 8:15 PM
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response to: (jumpingelephant)
You're 100% correct. I was reading recently about Obama's mother's approach to religion. I have to concur with her perspective. I'm not anti-religious, but religion should be a personal issue. As long as you don't break the law like the radical Mormon sect that engaged in the wedding of minors or doing Jim Jones-type stuff. I particularly have disdain for wingnut Republican fundies who go to your house at GD insane hours, to harass you about converting to their religion. If you look at American history from the Puritans to the radical modern Republican fundie movement, there has been a trend of religious intolerance, coupled with racial intolerance. The Puritans believed they were "predestined" via Manifest Destiny, to push the Native Americas off the West Coast, into the Pacific Ocean. Likewise, today's Republican fundamentalists use obscure Bible verses to justify their utter disdain for women and minorities. Republican fundies love their neighbors if they're 100% as twisted as they are.
As statistics show, there is a direct correlation between how how religious people are, and how educated they are. Red State Republicans tend to be the most religious and least educated in America. In addition, the Catholic Church has opposed every major scientific breakthrough in history. Ignorance is bliss, but it also has its price. 38/40 of the Red States that supported uhhhhhhhhhh, George W. Bush in Y2K, are the poorest in the country. So if you want to live in poverty and ignorance, whine like schoolgirls about how America is in "moral decline." Otherwise, Republican fundies should stop trying to replace the U.S. Constitution with the Bible, and try reading something besides the "good book."
Its refreshing to see the emergence of Democratic politicians who can be religious yet not intolerant. Kaine in VA worked as a missionary in South America, while Strickland in Ohio is actually an ordained pastor, if I'm not mistaken. As Chomsky put it, you don't really believe in free speech unless you support it for those who you disagree with most. The modern Republican fundamentalist movement has somehow lost what Jesus stood for. I don't recall Jesus talking much about abortion or the death penalty. However, he did talk about taking care of those who are less fortunate. In the latter case, Republicans fundamentalists have failed miserably.
Posted by: Dr. Don Key | August 21, 2008 8:11 PM
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Archbishop Raymond Burke, prefect of the Supreme Tribunal of the Apostolic Signatura, the highest judicial authority of the Holy See, said this week that Catholics who publicly support abortion -- especially politicians -- should not receive Communion, and that ministers of Communion should be responsibly charitable in denying it to them if they ask for it “until they have reformed their lives.”
Hey, Kennedy, Kerry, Pelosi, Biden, I guess I was right after all...And somebody inform B. Hussein Obama that a baby gets human rights upon conception. Geeezzzzz...and I thought all you Lefties were educated! LMAO
Posted by: MICHAEL | August 21, 2008 7:52 PM
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berlinerblou-
in your next post will you discuss the new william ayers ad? i don't know who he is.
Posted by: louis | August 21, 2008 7:52 PM
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Pro-choice catholic candidates a "debilitating distraction"? For whom?
A debilitating distraction would be the the nineteen 9/11 hijackers born under sharia law to woman with no options but forced pregnancies.
A debilitating distraction is a Ted Bundy or Son of Sam born to women who were forced to carry these unwanted pregnancies to term.
Turning half the human race into subhuman reproduction machinery is a debilitating distraction; a pro-choice Catholic candidate is not.
Posted by: Jo | August 21, 2008 7:46 PM
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Has this been said before? Religious voters are wingnuts!!!!!
Posted by: Duff | August 21, 2008 7:46 PM
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Here's one thing that rightwing-extremist Repuglicans never get: abortion is not a big issue with others besides themselves. Outisde of rightwing-extremist Republican fundies, nobody care whether Biden is Catholic or pro-choice. George W. Bush and his radical party are destroying America, and John McSame promises to continue such regressive politics. Only wingnuts like Pat Buchanan follow the Vatican 100% of the time and are ardently anti-abortion. But those types of wingnut fundies wouldn't vote for a Democrat anyway, so the point is moot.
Posted by: Dr. Don Key | August 21, 2008 7:44 PM
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screw the faith-base crap. what this country needs, particularly with obama as president, someone with experience and who has the self confidence to push back against the president as obama says he wants. check out a further explanation of this at www.straightrecord.com/randomrants
Posted by: jumpingelephant | August 21, 2008 7:36 PM
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One more time-
AMY'S POST:
First is an audio of-
Obama arguing that two doctors helping a baby born alive after a botched abortion would be a burden for the aborting mother after all she has already decided to abort (kill) her baby. (he was against the Born Alive Infant Protection Act, the Illinois state legislature April 2002)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypDwNpgIUQc
Second is a video of-
Obama saying he doesn't want his daughters "punished with a baby" as a result of a "mistake" and uses this rationale to promote teaching his daughters and the young children in elementary schools around the USA about abortions, condoms, STDs, and the whole Planned Parenthood child sex education curriculum.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvQeHEotYIw
TERRA GAZELLE SAID:
"Amy, You are spreading lies."
I listened to both of Amy's links. I don't understand what lies you are talking about. Are you saying that wasn't Obama speaking on both videos? Help me out please.
Posted by: Anonymous | August 21, 2008 7:26 PM
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For VP, why not Jack Reed? Unlike Sen. Biden, Sen. Reed voted AGAINST authorizing the President to send troops to Iraq. I think the command of our military forces and the conduct of foreign policy are significantly more important components of the Presidency than the religious matters you're discussing in this chat.
Posted by: ama | August 21, 2008 7:15 PM
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Jacque's comments while in fact are true I really wonder how relevent they are in a time of a recession based econony a spend until you drop war on several fronts and domestic problems too neumerous to count, please help me out what is leading this country all about. I am Catholoic and do believe in God as well as our consitution so I would rather see a smart leader with skill set that can unnify on what we are supposed to be unified on then all this " What is evil"
Posted by: Carling Dinkler | August 21, 2008 7:09 PM
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what a stupid, stupid article. the only point it really makes is that obama should have had a staffer outside the 'cone of silence.' what's actually stupid is that the O campaign made such a big deal out of a non issue, just giving more attention to O's underperformance at Saddleback. O is just plain bad at attack politics. he looks whiny, petty, and small. partly bc he has no sense of humor. ("you're likeable enough hillary.") mccain does. that goes a long way. If O loses this election, it will be the worst debacle for democrats ever.
Posted by: roger banning | August 21, 2008 7:04 PM
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Why do you think that all religious voters are anti-abortion? Why do you think that all Catholics are anti-abortion? Why do you assume that only right-wing Christian nutjobs have values? "Value voter"? Gimme a break. Why do you seem to think that hot-button issues such as abortion are what drive people to the polls? It's the economy, stupid, and the war, stupid, and NOT ABORTION.
Posted by: yellowdoggie | August 21, 2008 6:51 PM
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the women carries the sin of murder of her baby...
the doctor carries the sin of genocide of the babies he has aborted...
those who support abortion carry the sin of genocide of all the babies aborted...
Posted by: Dwight | August 21, 2008 6:48 PM
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Pro choice is the only choice.
Posted by: EMR | August 21, 2008 6:43 PM
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if biden is pro choice, he is no catholic...
Posted by: Dwight | August 21, 2008 6:41 PM
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Joe Biden may not appeal to religious conservatives, but why should he?
It seems to me that the vast majority of right-wing christian neoconservatives are going to vote for John McCain anyhow, because he is white, he is willing to parrot the right-wing line on abortion, and he has been towing the Republican party line for eight solid years now.
It makes perfect sense for Barack Obama to appeal instead to the liberal base of the Democratic Party- a liberal base which outnumbers the Republican conservative base and, unlike the Republicans (who, as a rule, do not vote for Democrats no matter how conservative they act), might actually be willing to vote for Obama if he acts like a fellow liberal.
Appointing Joe Biden as his running mate does precisely that. Unlike Obama, Biden did not reverse himself on the FISA vote. Obama's opposition to that grant of immunity- a rallying point for liberal voters, won him the nomination and his reversal when the time came to vote on it is pretty much entirely responsible for his steady loss of support. It isn't that McCain rallied- it's that McCain rallied and guys like me no longer had the inclination to fight back.
Speaking as a proudly liberal American, I would be absolutely thrilled to have a man who voted against the FISA sell-out appointed as Obama's running mate. I stopped contributing money to Obama's campaign the moment he reversed himself on his former opposition to FISA, and having a man who held fast as his runniong mate would certainly earn back some of the faith I placed in him in the primary race.
Posted by: Michael English | August 21, 2008 6:34 PM
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The reason Obama should not pick Biden as VP is that, as discussed in another area of this web site, Biden would be more valuable as a Secretary of State. We truly have reached a sad level in our political evolution if we are picking elected officials based on their religious beliefs rather than whether they will deal effectively with leaders of other nations.
Posted by: Robin | August 21, 2008 6:28 PM
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I just want to say I am truly PROUD of BARACK OBAMA. After seeing what this honorable, decent man has had to put up with in order to serve his country I am astonished at his patience and intelligence. For the last year I have listen, read and watched hateful, racist, low-life, knuckle-dragging morons do and say everything in their power to personally destroy this man because he had the AUDACITY to think an intelligent, capable, honorable BLACK man could be President of the United States of America. He has been called a murder, crook, thief, and everything BUT a child of god. Now you bible-thumpers want to question his "faith". You're all disgusting!!! I don't believe in your god or his but that has not kept me from seeing the qualified, honorable man who is running for the job. I HATE that a Presidential candidate would even have to do such a thing as that horrid spectacle of a "forum", but I made allowances because stupidity is not a "sin" it's an inconveinence. Enjoy this crap now because Atheists, Secularists and Agnostics are more numerous than you can imagine, we're totally fed up with this S$$T and we're coming....
Posted by: TJ WILLIAMS | August 21, 2008 6:27 PM
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The American Taliban cannot continue to have such a huge voice in our country. Separation of Church and State is an important part of our Constitution and must be upheld. We need to stop pandering to "religious" nuts that want to control the lives and thoughts of everyone else according to their own misguided views.
Posted by: JRGris | August 21, 2008 6:25 PM
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Bloviating Biden. Not a good moniker to carry into a Presidential campaign. A guy from Deleware isn't going to wow many folks in mainstream America. That Biden is another pro-choice ultra Liberal Elitist Democrat won't help Obama. Biden's not really going to impress many independents or moderates who supported Clinton. He was smart, though, to not trash her as severely as Obama did.
I also don't think Evan Bayh will help me. He's a pretty meek kind of candidate. What is the point in winning Illinois and Indiana? Both can turn out serious crowds of Republicans and moderates. Bayh isn't uniformly loved and respected in Indiana. I don't sense a fighter and Obama needs someone with military and national defence qualifications, as well as geopolitical knowledge.
Biden's got the latter. I don't see him as being a powerhouse on the other two. And, he's a bloviator. Will he be able to stick with short, succinct remarks? I doubt it. Another theorist, will be what lots of voters see. That's not what Obama needs, although that may be what he wants.
The real reason, I hear, that Obama wants someone like that is: he feels quite confident that he has all the answers he needs "within." He's already suggested he's far more qualified than Clinton or McCain by living in Indonesia, and visiting Pakistan and Kenya.
If Obama's delusional on those points, why wouldn't he be on Biden's strength. If he picks Biden, he'll solidify the pro-Choice approach (I favor it, too) to abortions and women's rights to control their own bodies. There will be plenty of moderates and Republican voters who won't go there on Obama, and, when they look at Biden, won't go there either.
Posted by: Zenhead | August 21, 2008 6:22 PM
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No Diane- Terra isn't saying Obamam wasn't speakong on a video where heis speaking-
Here- I'll help you out- since you requested help-
"(he was against the Born Alive Infant Protection Act, the Illinois state legislature April 2002)"
Indeed he was- because it was already extant under state law- and a redundant bill whose only difference form existing legislature was a back door attmept to make abortion illegal-
Which do you want Diane?
federal law superceding state? No true GOP wants that-
But I came in here because I thought of this-
Regarding McCain's inability to identify how many jomes exactly h has- and has to ask a staffer-
his very clever comeback?
"Does a guy who made more than $4 million last year, just got back from vacation on a private beach in Hawaii and bought his own million-dollar mansion with the help of a convicted felon really want to get into a debate about houses?" McCain spokesman Brian Rogers said in a statement"
OOOO BURN!
O- wait a minute-
4 million dollars a year?
then, by McCain's own definition of the 5 million dollar mark being the bottom for "rich"
Poor Obama doesn't even qualify for that designation.
Good one McCain!
Posted by: Anonymous | August 21, 2008 6:20 PM
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Sebastian McGarigle:
Nader, in Florida, gave us George W Bush. There should be a bounty on Nader.
Posted by: Arminius | August 21, 2008 6:15 PM
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Interesting column. Biden is a friend of McCain, and that could work against a Veep nomination. On the other hand, I thought that most of his remarks about Obama were mild and that his remarks on Iraq were prescient. Biden was my choice for the Democratic presidential nomination. If Obama chooses him for VEEP, I won't be disappointed, but I think that he would be even better suited to be Secretary of State, or to stay in place on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. He is a brilliant man whose service the nation urgently needs-- my concern is that he would be underutilized as VEEP.
On Obama: I certainly hope that he will begin to regain his luster, and I hope that he will gain the confidence of both evangelical and secular voters.
Posted by: ANetliner | August 21, 2008 6:06 PM
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Yes, And remenber that smart A. ignorant remark that Biden made after the 2000 Election about Ralph Nader (Who Represents the common person and sticks up for us) saying "He (Nader) better not show his face up here on Capital hill anymore". And then he and the Dems stopped Nader from testifying on crucial issues on behalf of the people. Just goes to show that they consider the "People" just another entity to deal with. Phonies!
Posted by: Sebastian McGarigle | August 21, 2008 6:05 PM
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Thank you for this piece.
I don’t think the religious impact of his potential VP should be the focus of the vetting process. His pick must sure up the ticket in the experience department. There is also the whole thing about "change", but the last thing Obama needs to do is to be so strung up on that word that he picks a VP that is an even fresher face than his own.
Sen. Biden is clearly the best choice here. He is chairman of the Foreign Relations committee and he brings to the table 30+ years of experience. The McCain campaign will have a tough time rambling about Obama's inability to make crunch time decisions with Biden off the leash and foaming at the mouth. Being on the attack is a comfortable role for Biden. The comments made by Biden regarding Obama were made during primary season, a time where candidates are obviously fighting for the ticket. The majority of common-sensed voters will take those comments for what they were, political posturing and rhetoric.
There is also no religious base sitting on the sideline waiting to be mobilized, perhaps with the exception of Jews. And I think it is clear that their concerns lie squarely on the security of the Jewish state, not on the candidate’s faith and values. The evangelical vote is more than 60% in favor of the presumptive republican nominee.
With the battle lines drawn, the independent/undecided vote is what is at stake. And the confidence in the Democratic ticket's wherewithal and ability to make the right policy decisions on the economy and global affairs will ultimately be what wins them over, and wins this election.
Posted by: PJ | August 21, 2008 5:59 PM
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Jacques, Thank you for your piece.
First, have you noticed that most of the name-calling and comments like "I think it's time to lock up all true believers on your site (and others too) come from the anti-religion crowd, who are supposedly tolerant? It is evident that their tolerance is very limited, that many would limit the freedom of those who disagree with them.
Second, you and others seem to have completely missed the "cone of silence" joke. Lighten up. Watch it on You Tube. Warren was obviously joking. The audience knew it, and laughed with him. What is sad, though, is that NBC, seeking to misuse this joke to show shady dealings when showing it on national TV, cut off his comment half a second before the audience laughed. This is manipulation on the part of NBC. Clearly intentional splicing to make their point. Dishonest. Shame on you NBC. And, Jacques, lighten up... it was a joke from an old TV series that the audience obviously got. All the fuss about it, and not full reporting of context by media, showed clearly (again) that there is main-stream media bias, and showed how many were grabbing for anything to criticize Warren and explain what happened at Saddleback Church. And, yes, sadly, I agree that right-wing media does often do the same thing. Sad.
Posted by: Daniel Iverson III | August 21, 2008 5:54 PM
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Jacques, Thank you for your piece.
First, have you noticed that most of the name-calling and comments like "I think it's time to lock up all true believers on your site (and others too) come from the anti-religion crowd, who are supposedly tolerant? It is evident that their tolerance is very limited, that many would limit the freedom of those who disagree with them.
Second, you and others seem to have completely missed the "cone of silence" joke. Lighten up. Watch it on You Tube. Warren was obviously joking. The audience knew it, and laughed with him. What is sad, though, is that NBC, seeking to misuse this joke to show shady dealings when showing it on national TV, cut off his comment half a second before the audience laughed. This is manipulation on the part of NBC. Clearly intentional splicing to make their point. Dishonest. Shame on you NBC. And, Jacques, lighten up... it was a joke from an old TV series that the audience obviously got. All the fuss about it, and not full reporting of context by media, showed clearly (again) that there is main-stream media bias, and showed how many were grabbing for anything to criticize Warren and explain what happened at Saddleback Church. And, yes, sadly, I agree that right-wing media does often do the same thing. Sad.
Posted by: Daniel Iverson III | August 21, 2008 5:53 PM
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John McCain is an adulterer. He violated the 8th Commandment when he cheated on his first wife with the woman who is his current wife. John McCain also killed people, albeit in wartime. But he is against abortion.
Barack Obama has been married to his only wife for 13 years, and has not cheated on her. He has never killed anybody. But he voted against a bill about abortion that 1) was already a law in Illinois and 2) could have been used to challenge Roe v. Wade. He does not want to outlaw abortion, although he is personally against it.
Who is the greater sinner?
Posted by: Athena | August 21, 2008 5:51 PM
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AMY'S POST:
First is an audio of-
Obama arguing that two doctors helping a baby born alive after a botched abortion would be a burden for the aborting mother after all she has already decided to abort (kill) her baby. (he was against the Born Alive Infant Protection Act, the Illinois state legislature April 2002)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypDwNpgIUQc
Second is a video of-
Obama saying he doesn't want his daughters "punished with a baby" as a result of a "mistake" and uses this rationale to promote teaching his daughters and the young children in elementary schools around the USA about abortions, condoms, STDs, and the whole Planned Parenthood child sex education curriculum.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvQeHEotYIw
TERRA GAZELLE SAID:
"Amy, You are spreading lies."
I listened to both of Amy's links. I don't understand what lies you are talking about. Are you saying that wasn't Obama speaking on both videos? Help me out please.
Posted by: diane | August 21, 2008 5:49 PM
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well i guess in the context of religious voters biden might not help, but in terms of people who are voting on their values regarding a stong and smart foreign policy, and an intelligent economic policy, biden is a great help.
Posted by: metrpolitan | August 21, 2008 5:48 PM
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You know, it is unconstitutional to have a religious test to hold public office in the United States. It is in our constitution. It is un-American...
Posted by: Steve Beste | August 21, 2008 5:46 PM
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Its the American people who don't offer much, not Joe Biden.
Maybe its time America wake up and shake off the hypocritical strangle hold of all the Bible Banging warmongers and elect some qualified, intelligent people, who may not know the correct answer to the question "When does life begin"?
The real question is when the the stupidity of the American people End?
Posted by: Aussiebones | August 21, 2008 5:45 PM
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Many Catholics oppose abortion but understand that their Church has a position they can respect while dissenting. Before recently evangelicals never talked about abortion. It is clear that they have decided to join with Catholics for political reasons. The GOP cannot win on its economic position; it needs mass support and can only get it by using the abortion and social issues policies. The GOP has never done anything to end abortion and never will, but it will demagogue the issue, as McCain has learned.
Catholics vote for pro-choice Catholics in large numbers because they know why abortion and how abotion is misued for nefarious reasons.
Posted by: candide | August 21, 2008 5:44 PM
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Obama's going to surprise everyone. Rep. Barney Frank (D-MA) is the inside choice. Why? First, he's experienced in many areas Obama isn't. Second, he's going to bring into the Obama tent the large majority of alternate-lifestyle voters who are convinced Hillary supporters. Rep. Frank will add significant dimension to the "Change we can believe in" theme, no doubt about it!
Posted by: P. Dumbarton Oakley IV | August 21, 2008 5:43 PM
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I am Roman Catholic and staunchly pro-life/anti-abortion.
In the context of life issues, it makes no difference who Sen. Obama picks as his *VICE* President. Sen. Obama could pick Pope B XVI himself for V.P. and I would not vote for him as President.
Sen. Obama is the *PRESIDENTIAL* nominee and has a strong pro choice record and voted 4 times against the "Born Alive Infants Protection Act."
For the above and many other issues, I will not be voting for Sen. Obama.
Posted by: Dave | August 21, 2008 5:42 PM
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Trouble with the Church? Oh dear. In Europe, many "Catholics" are pro-Choice. Same here. When the Church decided to sanction molestation of children, it lost a bit of credibility among the flock.
Posted by: jane | August 21, 2008 5:40 PM
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A vote for Biden is a mortal sin. Can't vote for Obama without voting for Biden if he's his VP. Therefore, a vote for Obama is a mortal sin. The same rule applies to all Democrats doesn't it? Must be a mortal sin to be a Democrat.
Republicans are a pack of closet homos with the "wide stance." Bush admitted as much when he said, "we are all sinners." Republicans are all going to hell too so a vote for McCain is a mortal sin. Whole country except for independents are going to hell. That leaves nobody to vote for except Joe Lieberman and he's Jewish.
There's just one thing left to do. Install the pope as a temporary king, just until Jesus returns. Somebody objects, Dobson, Hagee or some anti Catholic? Then we can have an election for temporary king. Will it be the pope or an anti Catholic to run the country, just until Jesus returns which is just around the corner. Problem solved, democracy saved.
Posted by: BGone | August 21, 2008 5:36 PM
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Mitch22:
Picking a VP is a very serious decision. The presidential candidate has to take into account numerous factors, ...
---------------------------------------
In all seriousness, the vice-president should at a minimum know how many houses he or she owns. Not knowing that is an exceptional condition, much like being able to name every country in reverse-alphabetical order.
They are both exceptional because one would give me goosbumps, and the other the creeps. If I come across something in the woods that I have never seen... and it hisses at me, I absolutely would not pick it up.
Posted by: K Ackermann | August 21, 2008 5:28 PM
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F and V is now politically bankrupt, and Obama knows it. Bush took the moralists down with him because "compassionate conservatism" became a complete farce.
As the band PocketKnife says, "We're all hunters now."
Posted by: Nathan | August 21, 2008 5:18 PM
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Amy,
You are spreading lies. I know that it is hard to discern what is true sometimes..but I always start with the view that people are basicly good... and I research. It is so easy. And I never check out one source.
http://www.truthfightsback.com/site/smear/248/
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-abortion-obama_20aug20,0,1470841.story
terra
Posted by: Terra Gazelle | August 21, 2008 5:17 PM
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I'm an active Catholic who doesn't intend to let religion influence my vote; I believe in separation of church and state. Biden has great foreign policy credentials and is able to communicate well to blue collar voters. He'd be my pick for VP.
Posted by: Ceee | August 21, 2008 5:15 PM
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Alex Campbell: you are awesome.
I too love to use Rumsfeld in examples because he is the perfect storm of discord.
A truly stupid intellectual who never once questioned his total wrongness. So certain is he in his correctness, that being wrong is above his ability to perceive - much as algebra is to a dog.
Even when the entire world could not possibly disagree with him more even if he was twice as wrong, he finds a way to push the envelope into uncharted domains of wrongness with a quick non-sequitur insult aimed directly at you that is so horrendously offensive and carries so little actual information that the insult itself becomes orders of magnitude louder in the media than the original wrongness could ever convey.
Alan Turing would have to rethink his test for machine intelligence had a source of wrongness of such great magnitude been known to him. The smartest future computer would listen to Rumsfeld for nary a minute before it too discounted the possibility that it could be wrong by pronouncing Rumsfeld an obvious automaton only able to emit falsehoods.
What is the opposite of perfection? We have the definition and the example, all we need is a word.
Posted by: K Ackermann | August 21, 2008 5:11 PM
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Picking a VP is a very serious decision. The presidential candidate has to take into account numerous factors, mainly whether this person is capable of being president. Religion, or the ability to carry a certain religious (or "faith-based") constituency doesn't enter into it. Nor should it. Most Americans feel this way:
http://people-press.org/report/445/religion-politics
I think Obama is wise to choose Biden as his running mate, the country will be better for it.
Posted by: Mitch22 | August 21, 2008 5:10 PM
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Marc Edward:
I am duly impressed by how you are rebutting every silly argument, and doing it well. Keep it up, I'll try to pitch in.
I am particularly impressed with this that you said: "I always warn my kids about anyone who claims to know what God thinks, because they universally liars." Right on! I raised my kids that way. I also add that they should flee from anyone who claims to have all the answers. Same thing, really.
Posted by: Arminius | August 21, 2008 5:09 PM
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Black Liberation Theology is a Christian theology...It is based in what they see as what Christ was about...
Fresh Air from WHYY, March 31, 2008 · The Rev. James Cone is the founder of black liberation theology. In an interview with Terry Gross, Cone explains the movement, which has roots in 1960s civil-rights activism and draws inspiration from both the Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. and Malcolm X, as "mainly a theology that sees God as concerned with the poor and the weak."
"Cone explains that at the core of black liberation theology is an effort — in a white-dominated society, in which black has been defined as evil — to make the gospel relevant to the life and struggles of American blacks, and to help black people learn to love themselves. It's an attempt, he says "to teach people how to be both unapologetically black and Christian at the same time."
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89236116
People are always so ready to see the worse in people, to believe the worse. Did those who claim that Black Liberation Theology is not Christian, do any research other then at hate sites? Did you find the first hateful site you could and then say ," see it is bad!"
terra
Posted by: Terra Gazelle | August 21, 2008 4:58 PM
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When will we stop caring about all these "people of faith?" These are the less intelligent, lesser educated Americans. Belief in god shows a complete lack of analytical skills and an irrational acceptance of myths and lies. I refuse to believe that over 90 percent of Americans believe in god. Americans just can't be that stupid. Fear of being a public atheist must have caused them to lie. Hooray for Obama if he picks a pro-choice running mate! It's about time that the national debate was steered by the intelligent, thinking Americans and not the gullible, servile believers. And by the way, why would you want to believe in a god that allows war, hunger, poverty, disease, natural disasters, etc? This is a cruel, sadistic, vengeful, spiteful, evil god. Or if your god isn't powerful enough to prevent such tragedy, then you lie when you say that it is omnipotent. I think it's time to lock up all "true believers." The insanity of it all is just too scary.
Posted by: 2late4god | August 21, 2008 4:48 PM
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Yep, a pre-emptive Christian fundamentalist Republican salvo designed to put the fear into Obama supporters. Anything Obama does will be criticized. Tell me, sir: Will you criticize McCain if he picks a pro-choice VP, or will you smooth it over, and say it's not all that important?
Posted by: SAGG | August 21, 2008 4:47 PM
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Paul writes
"No one seems to mention the fact that a 'black theology church' is not a 'christian church'."
Actually you are wrong. Black Liberation Theology is specifically Christian.
Please don't keep reposting this, as now you know it's a lie, and it'd make you a liar, which is as bad as being a murderer.
Have a nice day!
Howdy Elana - Obama didn't stumble over abortion. He gave a reasoned and solid answer, unlike McCain who blurted out "at conception", as if it were even possible to give legal rights to a 1 day old pair of cells. McCain doesn't take abortion seriously beyond getting extra votes.
DCp - Obama never "voted for infanticide". You ought to do more research before spreading lies. It makes you look like a liar, or at least an ignorant loud mouth, and I'm sure you are better than that.
MICHAEL writes
"Biden may call himself a "Catholic" but unless the Fifth Commandment has been dropped since I returned to my office today; anyone who votes for abortion has excommunicated themselves from Catholicism"
1) Totally untrue - do you know anything about Catholicism? Yeah, didn't think so.
2) By your measure only one commandment counts. "Murder" isn't the only commandment. Lying (like saying anyhone who votes pro-choice) isn't any better than Murder. Moreover, anyone who claims to speak for God (like you) is a fool, period. I always warn my kids about anyone who claims to know what God thinks, because they universally liars.
Posted by: Marc Edward | August 21, 2008 4:43 PM
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When will we stop caring about all these "people of faith?" These are the less intelligent, less educated Americans. Belief in god shows a complete lack of analytical skills and an irrational acceptance of myths and lies. I refuse to believe that over 90 percent of Americans believe in god. Americans just can't be that stupid. Fear of being a public atheist must have caused them to lie. Hooray for Obama if he picks a pro-choice running mate! It's about time that the national debate was steered by the intelligent Americans and not the gullible, servile believers. And by the way, why would you want to believe in a god that allows war, hunger, poverty, disease, natural disasters, etc? This is a cruel, sadistic, vengeful, spiteful, evil god. Or if your god isn't powerful enough to prevent such tragedy, then you lie when you say that it is omnipotent. I think it's time to lock up all "true believers." The insanity of it all is just too scary.
Posted by: 2late4god | August 21, 2008 4:42 PM
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biden's well-liked and has good ideas, you're underestimating him. it's a bit early for a retrospective analysis, though the attempt to smear obama should harm the right--everyone should be familiar with their defamatory and manipulative tactics by now.
Posted by: g | August 21, 2008 4:37 PM
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Who the hell cares?
You know what? Maybe the religious community keeps voting the wrong way; have you ever thought of that?
I don't think Jesus hates America, so why does the religious community? They keep voting for the pinhead on the right, even though the pinheads have never delivered anything they said they would.
Bush has delivered war, pestilence, and disease, if you count turning kids into retards from eating Wal-Mart's lead toys as disease.
He has gone against every principle this country was founded on, and then added some that would make the founding fathers weep. The little things too: when I saw Walter Reed, I was enraged. It's one thing to use and abuse the religious community, and to accuse half the nation of giving aid and comfort to the enemy, but to see him drape himself in the flag and then defecate on the heads of wounded soldiers was too much for me.
He promised heads would roll, but he pardoned the toady traitor to this nation, while true, gruesome evil lurked in the dark shooting friends in the face.
There is not a court in the land that would find Joe Wilson guilty if he peeled the skin from Cheney face after what Cheney did to his wife.
It's funny too; I remember McCain saying he was pro-life, but I don't remember him ever actually promoting that strong conviction. If he did, he wasn't very effective.
I think Obama should have promised to work as hard as the republicans toward a pro-life agenda. Forget about practical matters such as reducing the need for abortions, the religious community doesn't do nuance; they like their lies straight up, with a twist of tough doublespeak.
I would the next forum to be in front of sick and dying children where McCain can tell them why he voted against health coverage for less fortunate children. Caring for children must have been a character flaw in Jesus, because I sure see a lot of the religious community shun children too. You want them born, but you don't want anything to do with them after.
Which Reverend keeps saying that gay marriage will destroy all of marriage? You know, Massachusetts has the lowest divorce rate in the nation, and the so-called bible belt has the highest. How wrong do you have to be before you get sick of being wrong? If it's not one group to hate, it's another. Why can't you all just hate yourselves and let the rest of us at least try and make rational decisions based on logic and not belief. Everyone thinks their God is the true God, but something has to give, right? Haven't you heard? Christians are second-rate compared to the Jews anyway. You're on the waiting list.
By the way; God told me it was a round world and He loved nuance. Why else all the different color skin?
Posted by: K Ackermann | August 21, 2008 4:36 PM
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Jacques Berlinerblau,
I am praying that Biden gets it...he is a man that is honest, what he thinks comes out of his mouth. There is little artifice with him...and he is a scrapper. From the blue collar town of Scratton, Pa. and in government for ages he still does not get driven around in a limo, he rides the amtrak every day to work and back. When his wife and baby daughter was killed in a car accident, he went home each night to be home with his young sons. He has integrity and strength and fight, we need all three.
Obama/Biden Now!
Posted by: Terra Gazelle | August 21, 2008 4:35 PM
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F*ck the "faith and values department".
Article VI of the Constitution -- there IS NO religious test for public office, except in the minds of Dobson, et al, and now Berlinerblau.
Meeting with a pastor in a well-publicized church event was a mistake for both candidates. Sickening, watching this pandering to the F & V crowd.
Posted by: phoenixresearch | August 21, 2008 4:34 PM
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Ok Barak. Take the author's advice and don't pick Joe Biden.
But please please pick Senator Harry Reid of Nevada. Harry has become the black hole of Nevada politics and is considered a sure bet to follow Tom Daschle's path to forced retirement.
Lovingly referred to as "Benedict Arnold" Reid and "Toyko Rose" Reid daily on Nevada talk radio for his frequent outbursts against our winning efforts in Iraq and perceived at home as unpatriotic his unpolpularity at home will have just the right amount of negative coattails to lose Nevada for Barak Obama on November 4th.
In the wee hours of the November 5th the last standing news anchor will announce glumly that Senator Obama lost the electoral college vote by a squeaker of two state's electoral votes one of which will be Nevada thanks to Harry Reid's reverse coat tails.
It will be all the more remarkable since Harry is not even running until 2010 but just can't help opening his mouth every couple of days and offending the good people of his home state.
Posted by: Mike Smith | August 21, 2008 4:32 PM
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Mr. Berlinerblau,
Biden would be a tremendous asset because of his foreign affairs credentials. This is important to me and I am not alone. Moreover, I am not interested in religion in the political arena. To me it's the biggest red herring ever. I am very tired of single issue fringie voters. How will anything be accomplished if we do not open our eyes to all the needs of the country and how government can serve all of us.
Lilla Hoefer
Posted by: Lilla Hoefer | August 21, 2008 4:31 PM
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"who hasn't created a Golden Treasury of anti-Obama and pro-McCain *quotes*"
Quotations??
Posted by: Julian | August 21, 2008 4:30 PM
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Ok, for a group of Christians that are supposed to honor truth and wisdom, I read a lot of lies and ignorance. Do you all care about what is true? Have you checked up on your beliefs to see if you had the facts..or is it better to stay in your comfort zone and spread lies? How Christian are you?
Check out some knowledge...if you don't like the sites...check them out with more then right wing hate sites.
http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/fightthesmearshome
Check out the issues tabs-
www.barackobama.com
What Obama did in the Illinos state senate-
http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2007/07/29/us/politics/20070730_OBAMA_GRAPHIC.html
About Smears and truth-if you care...
http://www.truthfightsback.com/site/smear_archive/index.php/P0/
If you do not want to vote for Obama make it for the right reasons, for the truth not lies from Emails or from those who have much to gain. There are so much on line, truth and lies..it is up to each of us to find what ia which.
terra
Posted by: Terra Gazelle | August 21, 2008 4:29 PM
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It does not matter what Obama does it is never good enough. Here we have Obama, Ivy League school graduate, 2 Ivy League schools to be exact, running against a person who graduated at the bottom of his class, is a serial adulterer, and has been involved in two scandals (wife stealing drugs and Keating 5) that would have ended any other politician's career.
So, I think John McCain did a poor job. He answered nothing in detail and he used his stump speech which he was not supposed to do. We know it was a setup. So, why aren't you pointing out McCain's flaws? Why aren't you talking about his warmongering against Iran and the Russians?
Oh, that is right you think McCain will support Israel more than Obama? If a Jew ever wants to be president of these United States, they had better get behind Obama and help Obama pave the way. Get it?
Posted by: Yurdelite | August 21, 2008 4:27 PM
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The God Vote
Jacques Berlinerblau
You got to be in an other world Jacques or your trying to help McSame.
Get real!!
Posted by: GHM | August 21, 2008 4:25 PM
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Athena,
That is the joke, they call it a 'church'. It is not, he is no christian...I honestly do not believe he is a muslim or anything, I just read up on what the man wrote that Obama's 'reverend' called his spiritual mentor. His name is James Cone, Google it, it is real and has NOTHING to do with any religion.
Posted by: Paul | August 21, 2008 4:25 PM
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I was pretty certain he would go with Biden, who, temperamentally, was his best bet. Not only is Biden a loyal Democrat, he's one who knows how to step out of the spotlight, and let it shine on whoever the party puts forward.
Regardless of what anti-choice Catholics may think, there are Catholics for choice--one can go to their web site. There are pro- and anti- choice Protestants, as well. And so it goes across religions and into the domains of agnosticism and atheism
Thankfully, we are not yet a theocracy; moreover, abortion is not the only issue with which we need to concern ourselves. A rapidly deteriorating economy and a senseless war, among many other things need immediate attention.
We elected a God candidate, and look where we are. Things cannot remain in their current state; they will either improve or get worse. The important question for the election is whether Obama or McCain is better equipped to lift us out of the mire.
Posted by: Farnaz | August 21, 2008 4:24 PM
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We should be grateful for the abortion issue. It allows millions to feel self-righteous by condemning it. They then can ignore the teachings of Jesus about the poor, sick, and other issues that would require them to actually do something. My belief is that we should not take the life of a person. So whenever an embryo becomes a person we should be concerned, but not prior to that. It is persons who have rights. Do not kill means don't kill another person not do not kill an embryo. Who knows at what point an embryo becomes a person?
Posted by: tom shoe | August 21, 2008 4:11 PM
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If the notorious child abusing Catholic Church meddles in one more election, it's going to start losing its tax-exempt status.
The Catholic Church allowed abortion until "quickening" - first movement of the fetus - until 1869.
Johnny come lately hypocrites have no power in America. Biden represents how Catholics pick and choose which parts of sometimes repressive church orthodoxy they believe in and follow.
Nothing the Church can do about it.
Posted by: SteveCO | August 21, 2008 4:08 PM
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Dear Jacques; As Don Rumsfeld would say. Oh my goodness gracious is not Jacques a real Republican. I refer to his reporting the "Golden Treasury of anti-Obama and pro McCain quotes" for the Maverick's people to bring to our attention.
Apparently you are not aware of the fact that Biden, will turn the tables on each and every one of his McCain quotes,used by the former Maverick.
As far as the the pro-choice Catholics are concerned, many feel that he is acceptable.This is based on the fact that four more years of the Cheney Bush failures, are unacceptable. Especially with UN-Maverick McCain. Please Jacques, review McCain film clips on Youtube, John is actually lying on many subjects you have to see them, do not take my word. They really show a sad McCain, the man who would be president.
Posted by: Alex Campbell | August 21, 2008 4:07 PM
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No, he attended the Trinity United Church of Christ, not the Trinity Black Theology Church. And that "black liberation theology" church has done more for the poor and downtrodden in the Chicago area than any evangelical mega-church, including Saddlebag Church.
Wouldn't a "Black theology church" be praying to the African tribal Gods? THAT would be interesting!
Posted by: Athena | August 21, 2008 4:03 PM
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No one seems to mention the fact that a 'black theology church' is not a 'christian church'. Why is that? God was barely mentioned in that church and if Obama were to win I think it would be apparent soon after swearing in. He won't keep this charade up, he never does longer than he needs to. He lives to run, probably started in 8th grade student council, Harvard Review editor, community 'organizer', state senate, Congress, Presidency....then what? Then we see what he really is, nothing to take up his time anymore. He is no man of God, any religion.
Posted by: Paul | August 21, 2008 3:56 PM
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I won't address the nonsense of attempting to use reason or nuance with a group of people who have a mind set based what the latest evangelical PC; what is attonishing is the ignorance of those same evangelicals to the teachings of their "faith" before the current generation...when we can assume: babies came from storks not the nasty impregnation! Then we could have the souls appear with the Stork or even later when we decided there was a reasonable shot the kid would survive the end of the week! Now that we know about embryoes, fertilization, etc....we can rewrite the "Word of God" to include this new knowledge...I'm sure he never knew the details of all this stuff or actually cared much...see the problem when your God has no female elements!
The utter nonsense of Christianity and the mass indoctrination needed to beat the poor mind into submission is incredible...never mind that Americans have swallowed this imaginative story hook, line, and sinker...especuially the sinker! Why we would want a leader with such delusions is challenging and watching George sway in the contadictions should give our Christians pause before selecting another unthinking man!
Posted by: Chaotician | August 21, 2008 3:54 PM
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pro-choice and Catholic? You can CALL yourself Catholic, but that doesn't make you one. That goes for every other faith too.
Murder is murder- and murder IS my business as a caring citizen... just as slavery would have been my business if I were born a few centuries ago.
Posted by: fifi | August 21, 2008 3:50 PM
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I hate the phrase "faith-based." It's an awkward neologism for "religious" or "devout." In its ubiquity, it's like "in harm's way." No one says or writes "in danger" anymore. Paging Mr. Orwell...
I hate to tell you, but not everything in the world of politics is about religion. Voters don't have to cater to you faith-not-reason proponents in every respect. As it is, we cater to you too much, hence Rick Warren's self-promotion to Kingmaker. Paging the Earl of Warwick...
Biden isn't a potential VP because of his religious views. He's under consideration because he is, according to Chris Matthews, a regular guy, not an Ivy Leaguer, because he knows a lot about foreign policy, because he has name recognition, and because of his long service on the Judiciary Committee. Just as McCain will choose a younger running mate, Obama will probably choose an older one.
I long for the Good Old Days, not so long ago, when presidential elections weren't all about church attendance, ministers, abortion, stem cell research, life beginning at the instant anyone has a sexual fantasy, etc. We used to be able to talk about other things, such as the economy, and the war, and education, and the sorry condition of our roads & bridges. But thanks to the likes of you, we have a seemingly devout president who has bungled everything badly, cost American soldiers & Iraqi civilians their lives, ruined the US reputation abroad, and driven up the deficit to an alarming degree.
Posted by: Hamilton | August 21, 2008 3:43 PM
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Since most of the "Faith & Value" vote think in two dimensional terms - abortion and stem cells" then I can see why you are for Sen. J McCain.
You don't think about that Cindy McCain's father was a bigamist who had two wives at the same time and Cindy has a half sister.
You don't think about the Cindy McCain did not get help from Mother Teressa as she stated to adopt a child.
You don't think about the lives that have died in Iraq due to Sen. McCain vote to invade a sovereign country. No, I agree with your rebuttal that there was a cruel dictator, but there are many countries with dictators - Rwanda, Zimbabwe, North Korea, Russia, possibly Iran, etc. but we did not bomb them for their oil.
You don't think that GWB could not have done a better job with the poor in Louisiana during and after Katrina.
You don't think about the sub-prime mortgage issue or the illegal hiring and firing of attorneys in GWB's administration. Or, the exposure of a CIA operative by DC.
You don't think about the shredding of the Constitution and the Bill of Right under GWB/DC.
This is only a short list, but it is too long for what your mind can understand has been done is less then 8 years of this administration.
But that is ok, because he said he was born again after his drinking, drugs, avoiding duty in the military, etc.
Posted by: jerry rubin | August 21, 2008 3:42 PM
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The Catholic teaching of respecting life is NOT just about abortion; it is about poverty, health care, and a living wage. Church leaders are focusing on all of these issues with respect to politics, NOT just abortion.
There are many pro-choice Catholics and they ARE STILL Catholic. No one is "pro-abortion" but our country is not a theocracy, we are not governed by religion and because of that individuals and politicians must separate their personal beliefs from the law. Roe v. Wade is the law and therefore many Catholics, just like many Americans, are pro-choice. It is does mean Biden is not a Catholic.
Even during and after the "communion scandal" with John Kerry in 2004 most Catholic leaders were outraged that the sacrament of communion had been politicized.
No one person can tell me or Biden or anyone else "you are not a Catholic" only God can judge us.
Posted by: czook | August 21, 2008 3:40 PM
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Randi at 1:48 PM... "Obama's "above my pay grade" comment at Saddleback was incredibly revealing about several aspects of his campiagn: arrogance, cockiness, unprepardedness..."
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I think, perhaps, people are misunderstanding Senator Obama's "pay grade" remark. I took his "above my pay grade" comment to not refer to himself, but the Lord. Only God can determine when life begins. People have thier different interpretations and beliefs on this, but God determines when life begins - not the President of the United States...and God is certainly above that pay grade.
Posted by: Voter | August 21, 2008 3:39 PM
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Biden Not the Faith-Based Answer
WHO CARES?? Ours is a SECULAR SOCIETY and has NO PLACE for RELIGIOUS INFLUENCE in our politics. IF you and yours want to have an influence, move to Vidor TX, re-join the KKK there, and leave us alone.
Do Limbaugh, Pat Robertson, Hagee, Dobson and others tell you what to think as well?? scary....
Posted by: RB-CHicago | August 21, 2008 3:37 PM
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Why would I want a plagiarist and liar to share the Democratic ticket?
Posted by: Fabrisse | August 21, 2008 3:30 PM
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Pro Life = Anti War + Anti Poverty
Obama/Biden is clearly the Pro Life ticket.
100 more years of war, the DEATH penalty and more tax cuts for the rich are NOT Chritian values and certainly NOT PRO LIFE!
Posted by: Democratic Catholic | August 21, 2008 3:28 PM
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You would think someone would be talking about that, wouldn't you?
Keating 5 seems to be forgotten-
Posted by: VICTORIA | August 21, 2008 3:27 PM
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Are you an idiot?
Look what the 'GOD VOTE' delivered us:
DICK CHENEY!
The devil himself 'won' twice on a ticket as vice president.
An honest Catholic man like Biden is a MAJOR MAJOR upgrade over the evil we have in the white house today!!!!!
We are NOT going to tolerate another election where the misguided 'religious right' sabotages the campaign of the most qualified candidate!
If this keeps up, we will just boycott church all together.
Posted by: A Christian Man | August 21, 2008 3:27 PM
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I don't know who came up with the non sequitur "Pro-choice Catholic," but the correct description is "Protesant who attends Catholic mass."
Posted by: Anonymous | August 21, 2008 3:25 PM
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And before I leave all you Liberal-Know-It-All's...
It's not a "choice" it's a baby. And if you don't believe me, take a look at a sonogram of a pregnant woman sometime and tell what it is if it isn't a baby.
"Liberalism is just Communism sold by the drink." P.J.O'Rourke
Posted by: MICHAEL | August 21, 2008 3:25 PM
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"Michael" writes "And any Catholics who vote for pro-abortion candidates commit a serious sin." There is no such thing as "sin" and there is no such person as a "pro-abortion candidate."
Posted by: ama | August 21, 2008 3:25 PM
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"Why not move to Saudi Arabia?"
We can't send the majority of Americans to Saudi- so we will send you and hope the Saudis will be as tolerate of your less desirable behaviors as Americans are.
You better get to know and appreciate your neighbors in America.
Posted by: Anonymous | August 21, 2008 3:25 PM
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If Obama were to pick a VP just to shore up a religious vote I would think he has lost his bearings. Democrats just will never get a very large percentage of the stupid suckers who persistantly vote for the people who say they are anti-abortion, gay marriage, birth control, thinking that they will somehow overturn the twentieth century. It is not in the Republican Party interest to ever be sucessful in these endeavors because that would no longer give them sway over the poor souls who continue to allow them to win elections so that they can practice unfettered capitalism to the detriment of all the working stiffs and keep the taxes so low that they collect fortunes while running the government into the ground.(Just look at the last eight years and see where any real antiabortion or antigay progress was made but look at the low taxes, no-bid giveaways and blatant corruption of K-Street. Not that the Dems aren't given to pushing their own corrupt agendas but at least more trickles down to the working class. Obama needs a VP who can spend the next two months kicking Republican butt and debunking the "He was a great POW so he does everything right myth."
Posted by: bob tichell | August 21, 2008 3:23 PM
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Okay, if you want to talk Rezko, let's talk about McCain being one of the Keating Five? How many millions did the S&L bailout cost the taxpayers?
Posted by: Athena | August 21, 2008 3:19 PM
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"Biden is a Catholic?"
Biden may call himself a "Catholic" but unless the Fifth Commandment has been dropped since I returned to my office today; anyone who votes for abortion has excommunicated themselves from Catholicism. And any Catholics who vote for pro-abortion candidates commit a serious sin.
Posted by: MICHAEL | August 21, 2008 3:17 PM
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If you right wing religious zealots really want a theocracy, why not move to Saudi Arabia? I hear the Saudi Royal family is really tight with your hero, George W. Bush. You would love it there.
Posted by: No More ChristoFascism | August 21, 2008 3:13 PM
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Why is some much time spent on the abortion issue? Abortion is a woman's issue and should remain so. There are too many women who've had abortions and haven't given it a second thought. While the church doesn't like it and for the most part, no one does, God certainly doesn't punish these women for having one. Pro-choice is just that - someone's own, personal choice. So given that, why waste more time on this issue when the focus should be on issues that are affecting each and every American. Jobs, the economy, healthcare, tax breaks for the rich are all topics that don't seem to get enough focus on.
Posted by: Dilly | August 21, 2008 2:56 PM
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"IH2008:
Has it occured to anyone that there are secular voters in this country who do not want a spiritual leader in the White House?"
------------------------
Has it occurred to anyone that there are religious people who don't want a spiritual leader in the White House? We don't need someone to tell us what god to believe in. We need someone who has vision enough to get us out of the mess we've gotten ourselves into over the last 40 years. Unfortunately, we don't want to hear that we actually might have to do something ourselves to make it happen. We want more low-tax, low-gasoline-price, delay-and-let-the-next-generation-handle-it rhetoric from the White House.
Posted by: Hal | August 21, 2008 2:52 PM
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Keep your religion out of my government.
Posted by: Clint | August 21, 2008 2:50 PM
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Senator Biden is highly respected in the world of foreign affairs,were we need plenty of help. I believe were puting to much in to religion. We need experts to run our country, not just priests or pastors.
Posted by: Dan | August 21, 2008 2:38 PM
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"Yet what happened with Pastor Warren defies explanation. I am still trying to make sense of it. Of all the rhetorical gears that Obama possesses, he locked himself into the lowest, slowest, most placid and subtlety laden of them all. This from a politician who knows how to speak "Evangelical" and knows how to light up a house of worship."
===============================================
I'll explain it to you in four simple words-
Obama is a fraud.
Posted by: Jason | August 21, 2008 2:35 PM
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There is a difference between the church and the hierarchy of the church. I know many Catholics who are staunch Democrats,some of who are pro life and some of whom are pro choice. I would add that a large number (but not all) of the pro life Catholics also oppose the death penalty which has not passed over to most evangelicals who claim to be pro life but limit the issue to abortion and not to issues of the death penalty and war.
Posted by: ejgallagher1 | August 21, 2008 2:27 PM
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Has it occured to anyone that there are secular voters in this country who do not want a spiritual leader in the White House? Who would prefer to see a candidate who can balance a budget, manage a war, address the health care crisis and loss of industry.
There is also a huge pro-choice block of voters in America and they come from all faiths. It's time to stop dividing this country by shoving your personal faiths in the voters' faces. Have we learned noting from the theocracies around the globe? We are a separation of church and state democracy though you'd never know it from this farce of an election.
Stop trying to appeal to every religious demographic on the planet (with two candidates) and speak to America as a whole.
Posted by: IH2008 | August 21, 2008 2:26 PM
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Sen. Obama's gives great speeches; but, it would be better for him to stop "talking" and "say" something for a change. We're waiting ...
Posted by: haveityourway | August 21, 2008 1:57 PM
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Victoria found the McCain house attack clever? I thought OMG this is going to open the door to Rezko again.
Sure enough-
"Does a guy who made more than $4 million last year, just got back from vacation on a private beach in Hawaii and bought his own million-dollar mansion with the help of a convicted felon really want to get into a debate about houses?" McCain spokesman Brian Rogers said in a statement. "Does a guy who worries about the price of arugula and thinks regular people 'cling' to guns and religion in the face of economic hardship really want to have a debate about who's in touch with regular Americans?"
Posted by: ted | August 21, 2008 1:51 PM
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Obama's "above my pay grade" comment at Saddleback was incredibly revealing about several aspects of his campiagn: arrogance, cockiness, unprepardedness, inablilty to perform well in any other forum except when he is alone on the stage. And of course, he should have taken McCain's challenge to a long series of town hall debates. Obama thought he was enough in the lead that he did not have to debate thoroughly, and I think lots and lots of folks are going to see right through that as this campaign concludes.
Posted by: Randi | August 21, 2008 1:48 PM
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Actually, McCain and his wife own 10 houses and condos.
Posted by: Athena | August 21, 2008 1:41 PM
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I don't see how any Democrat can really gain much from the so-called "values voter" block, since the values that this group espouses are largely opposed to secular governance and, in some cases, democracy itself.
Posted by: Enemy Of The State | August 21, 2008 1:40 PM
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Jerome Corsi is one of the original & infamous Swiftboat liars that ruined Kerry's presidential chances. And 'Obama Nation' has already been discredited as an outright fabrication consisting of half-baked truths and outright lies. The Obama group needs to take this threat seriously and act quickly, as it's all over Fox News and elsewhere.
Taking the high road will not get Obama elected - which is exactly why Biden is being seriously considered. He'll rip those guys a new one without breathing hard - just for fun! Obama obviously needs a pitbull to handle the RNC crowd - he's just plain too decent to do the necessary dirty work himself. Placating the evangelicals is hardly his most pressing issue.
I never understood why Kerry didn't clean Korsi and his buddies out with a civil suit....not that he needed the money.
McCain is easily the biggest hypocrite that's run for high public office in a few generations - he's more disengenuous than Bush ever was....now that's really saying something. But then, he's got Karl Rove working for him, and that bad boy has got the art of nasty down to a science.
Posted by: autonomous | August 21, 2008 1:30 PM
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Someone once asked Albert Einstein what his phone number was. He answered that he had to look it up in a phone book. When asked why, he replied that he never had to call himself.
I don't see how knowing how many houses, shoes, or striped shirts one has, has any bearing on the Election except for cheap cannon fodder for the opposition. However, I see WaPo is already running a front-page article about it on their website.
Posted by: BeowulfthePolitician | August 21, 2008 1:30 PM
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Obama needs to forget trying to attract voters based on the abortion issue. He's already lost there- completely. There's no sense in even trying. His vote against BAIPA is a vote for infanticide. If I were him, I would focus on people who could care less about infanticide and are only focusing on the Iraq war and the economy. Abortion issue- forgone- got it?
Posted by: dcp | August 21, 2008 1:29 PM
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I've got CNN on right now- and they just reported that McCain, when asked how many houses he owns- didn't know- and said he had to ask a staffer-
turns out it is 4 houses-
this, from a man , who thinks 5 million dollars a year income is the bottom line t be qulaified as "rich" in this country.
1 second after McCain made this unfortunate statement- he quickly tried to cover it with- I bet the opposition will try to twist that one.
Well, duh! No twist is necessary-
it is what it is-
If he was aware of how out of touch and easily twisted such a statement had in potential-
what part of his brain was not working when he said it?
One of those little moments when the veneer slips off I guess.
Posted by: VICTORIA | August 21, 2008 1:20 PM
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The post from "John Walsh" demonstrates further the need to return to a reality-based politics.
Posted by: ama | August 21, 2008 1:09 PM
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John Walsh writes
"Biden is part of the abortionist Catholic clique in Senate. Dodd, Kennedy, Mikulski, Collins, Durbin"
Gee John, you claiming that these Senators have performed abortions? Or even paid for an abortion? You know something we don't or playing fast and loose with facts?
"and more so will incite the fury of the Bishops"
The same Bishops who enabled child molesters to continue their abuse of little boys without fear of legal consequences? They sure carry a lot of moral standing!
"which will ensure that the likely defeat of Obama will become a done deal with Biden. Read Obama Nation by Jerome Corsi."
Oh - so you're promoting a book that is nearly 100% lies in the Onfaith area? So one can reasonably conclude that
1) You tolorate liars, so you are probably a liar yourself
2) You have no respect for God or the Christian Religion, which prohibits lying
Thanks for proving everything you say is probably misleading at best, and outright lie at worst!
It amazes me how many professed Christians are comfortable telling bold faced lies in public. Most of the athiests I've met could teach you a lot about ethics!
Posted by: Marc Edward | August 21, 2008 1:06 PM
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Biden is part of the abortionist Catholic clique in Senate. Dodd, Kennedy, Mikulski, Collins, Durbin, and more so will incite the fury of the Bishops which will ensure that the likely defeat of Obama will become a done deal with Biden. Read Obama Nation by Jerome Corsi. You will be amazed at how Obama is promoting Islam in Kenya because Odinga PM is of his Kuo Tribe and has an Islamic alliance promising Muslims he will promote Islam in Kenya, an 80% Chrisian nation.
Posted by: John Walsh | August 21, 2008 12:21 PM
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Prof. Berlinerblau -- You write that "In terms of getting a faith-based edge, Obama could certainly find a better sidekick than Joe Biden." I would prefer a VP candidate with a reality-based "edge," and I think that more than half of voting Americans would agree. We've had enough faith-based politics, and would like to see a return to the real world. The faith-based are free to practice their religious beliefs, of course, but we should address our various domestic and foreign challenges without reference to our different conceptions of the nature or purpose of our existence. Don't you think the "God" that we imagine would want us to use our senses and skills to address our problems realistically?
Posted by: ama | August 21, 2008 12:12 PM
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Enough with the glorification of the fetus, already! There are many, many problems in this country and this world that need to be addressed. Abortion is way down on the list. I'd rather have someone who can deal with our economic problems, has a real plan address global climate change, increase funding for research into alternative energy, and get us out of Iraq. We have over SIX BILLION people on this planet, and we're straining our resources. Things are only going to get worse. We're already fighting over water resources - which is the root of the problem in Darfur. Frankly, we need LESS people in the world, not more.
There are three main things that will lessen the number of abortions - education of women, access to contraception, and a good economy. But Catholics and evangelicals want to limit contraceptives as well, because they consider them to cause abortions - even though science says otherwise. It's crazy!
Repealing Roe v. Wade will NOT stop abortions. Making abortion illegal will not stop it. Google on "abortion" and "El Salvador" to find out what happens when a country bans abortion. They're throwing women into jail for having illegal abortions. Do we want that for our daughters? I certainly don't!
Posted by: Athena | August 21, 2008 12:04 PM
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It would only be a problem appearing if Obama wanted to hide what he really believes.
Each campaign was given the same number of tickets to attend the the program. (I don't know why no one realized this when Obama got an applause after stubling over his abortion stand.)
I have been there, there is no one who would ever appalud his position on abortion.
Posted by: elena | August 21, 2008 12:03 PM
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Yonkers, New York
21 August 2008
Jacques Berlinerbrau fails to make the necessary distinction between the Catholic hierarchy on one hand and the Catholic constituency on the other with particular respect to the issue of whether or not a presidential or vice-presidential candidate is pro-choice or pro-life.
The distinction has to be made because although the Catholic hierarchy can be expected to strenuously oppose a candidate who is pro-choice, in this case Senator Joe Biden, not many of the 50 million or so Catholics in the United States automatically heed the Catholic hierarchy's position on whom it naturally favors.
The Catholic constituency is not monolithic. They are composed of intelligent, aware, responsible Americans first and foremost who are fully cognizant of the serious economic, financial, social and geopolitical problems confronting these United States and will act accordingly at the polls come November.
Mariano Patalinjug
MarPatalinjug@aol.com
Posted by: Mariano Patalinjug | August 21, 2008 11:57 AM
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Berlinerblau misses the point if he thinks Senator Obama went to the Saddleback compound to win over that audience. The importance of his appearance was to reach beyond hardcore right wingers in that audience to Americans who still might believe Obama to be somehow alien to "normal America". While McCain blurted out his bumper sticker answers with the eagerness of a child answering "true - false" questions, Obama demonstrated his longtime commitment to his Christian faith. The only folks who still think Obama is a secret Muslim are racists, liars and the cognitive disabled. Real Christians would not how McCains answers were bereft of Christ. Some who deride Obama's "nuance" ignore the Christians centuries old tradition of intellectual debate and reasoning into the nature of God. Claiming that Obama "made a mistake" only shows how out of touch Berlinerblau is.
Posted by: Marc Edward | August 21, 2008 11:45 AM
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Sarah, I agree with you and not only is it the view of the Roman Catholic population it is in the official encyclicals from the Bishops and the Popes that form the Catholic Churches teachings on social issues. Abortion is just one small part of one of those 7 issues.... Here is a link to what the US Bishops site about these issues: http://www.usccb.org/sdwp/projects/socialteaching/excerpt.shtml
Posted by: Marita | August 21, 2008 11:35 AM
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That those who cling to medieval superstition would impose such a litmus test is no surprise -- nor a reason to capitulate to the Christo-fascists who can busy themselves with nothing save imposing the similarly medieval strictures they themselves do not observe onto society at large.
Posted by: trippin | August 21, 2008 11:31 AM
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Hi Zach Jones:
Thought you might like to see these utubes:
First is an audio of-
Obama arguing that two doctors helping a baby born alive after a botched abortion would be a burden for the aborting mother after all she has already decided to abort (kill) her baby. (he was against the Born Alive Infant Protection Act, the Illinois state legislature April 2002)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypDwNpgIUQc
Second is a video of-
Obama saying he doesn't want his daughters "punished with a baby" as a result of a "mistake" and uses this rationale to promote teaching his daughters and the young children in elementary schools around the USA about abortions, condoms, STDs, and the whole Planned Parenthood child sex education curriculum.
Posted by: amy | August 21, 2008 11:07 AM
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Dear Jacques,
I always enjoy your comments. Today, however, you have missed the USCCB's pronouncement that Roman Catholics are free to 'vote their conscience'in USA elections. (You can check this with Father Thomas Reese at Georgetown University.
Other issues beside abortion are important to the Catholic response to government such as war, fair and decent response to social and economic problems that reflect the interest of the Roman Catholic population and their constitutent population.
Joseph Biden will have no difficulty in this regard.
Thank you for your interest.
Posted by: Sarah @Washington Post:AydP2M64 | August 21, 2008 10:57 AM
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stagnant minds
keen to design
torture and pain.
Mothers + kids
and elders and all
the masses of just 'people'
to feed
the machinery of death
the mafia industry
of war.
Under intense pressure
of oldfashion diplomats
obama shows his strenghts.
wW mothers definitely
to vote for him + senator biden
who
with kids
is naturally great.
that's enough for me.
Posted by: lea | August 21, 2008 10:53 AM
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A very well-written and thoroughly thought-through piece. Your objectivity and reason shine. Normally, you write something far-to-the-left, but today, you are actually fair and unbiased. (Darn!) You give me nothing to contend, so in the words of Mike Tyson, "I take my hand off to you."
Posted by: BeowulfthePolitician | August 21, 2008 10:43 AM
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Regarding this:
"In retrospect we might say that one of the biggest mistakes Obama made in this campaign was accepting Warren's invitation. He was, after all, sure to be confronted with questions about abortion and gay marriage in front of an audience that did not share his views. "
Why is it a mistake to speak in front of an auduence that does not share your views? I don't understand what this has to do with anything. If you have views, what is the point of sharing them with people who already agree with you?
Did you perhaps mean to say the "It is in a politicians best interest to tell any crowd that he is one of them and shares their views, regardless of whether he does or not. If a politician gets in front of a crowd that has views that are anathema to a politician's core costituency, that places the politician in an uncomfortable position. If he agrees with the crowd and wins their approval (which he craves), he will alienate a core constituency. This dilemna forces him to publicly stand for his beliefs in front of a hostile (or at least disapproving) crowd. That's bad for the politician, because he's not good at withstanding disapproval. It bruises his ego and stumbles his game."
You know, I'd rather vote for a stand-up guy willing to speak truth to power (or unruly mobs). I'd rather vote for a guy who believes in something and it's the same something whether the mob agrees or not.
Now THAT would be new-style politics.
Posted by: ZZim | August 21, 2008 10:40 AM
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I don't think Senator Biden as VP would hurt Obama any more than Obama already hurts himself just by being unfit for office. Adding the "reliably liberal" Biden to the ticket makes it very hard for me not to come back to the fold and vote Dem (as I've always done) in spite of Obama. But just as our Olympic athletes didn't go to Beijing to get the silver, we don't go to the polls to vote for the VP.
Over and above his inexperience and lack of record, Obama's big problem is that he's so afraid of losing votes he doesn't know how to firmly define a position and then stick to it. The more we know him, the more he resembles just another politician. The major issue Obama faces regarding faith and values is that it's impossible for most Americans to place any faith in the integrity of his values.
The only thing that could happen this election year to bring the Democrats back to that "shoe-in" status we all thought we'd be enjoying by this time would be for the DNC to nominate somebody else next week. But we all know that's not going to happen and we're once again stuck with the bitter pill of having no one to vote for.
So far as more fuss being made about McCain dishonorably violating the "cone-of-silence," I think that's about as believable as Obama as a secret Muslim, Michelle and whitey-gate or the Clintons as racists. We can't position McCain as a dementia-riddled luddite on the one hand and then accuse him of not only receiving the broadcast, but also being able to prepare and memorize his answers during Obama's hour on the other.
Posted by: Lynn | August 21, 2008 10:39 AM
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let him morph.
be-come
don't we all
like-wise?
Posted by: bobcat | August 21, 2008 10:38 AM
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Darn! Just once I would like to be first. That way everyone would read my post, no matter how stupid or pointless is might be
Posted by: so close | August 21, 2008 10:00 AM
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It seems that Senator Obama is described as having one of the most extreme positions that one can find when it comes to the issue of abortion….Normally, I can understand a lawyer’s dancing on the head of a pin for the sake of not wanting to undermine a future legal argument or position. However, regarding Senator Obama, some other details give me pause and raise questions about whether his stated motivation(s) can be trusted.
Obama Would Evidently Throw The Baby Out With The Bathwater found at:
http://zachjonesishome.wordpress.com/2008/08/02/obama-would-evidently-throw-the-baby-out-with-the-bathwater/
Posted by: ZachJonesIsHome | August 21, 2008 9:41 AM
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The comments to this entry are closed.
And this makes your contention all the more ridiculous-
"The entire nation and the world saw and heard that that was a humorous comment McCain made and then continued to state that it was a joke and discussed the issue on a serious tenor..."
What, exactly- is humorous about saying that the level at which one is considered wealthy in regards to a tax question 5 million dollars-
Who would that be funny to?
The average american making 40k a year?
IF they are lucky?
The only people who would find such a statement funny- would be those who think that 5 million is an amusing little figure to call rich-
Most people aren't like McCain- with a wife who has millions and millions of dollars-
The fact that you or (supposedly although he hasn't said so, McCain)find that figure or statement amusing-
illustrate even more profoundly how completely insulated and protected form the real problems americans are suffering with economically McCain really is
which is not funny at all- but scary-
like Papa Bush being confounded by the scanner at the supermarket-
McCain doesn't even know how many houses he owns.
Not funny to 95% of americans.