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Women's Place
As I ventured into the hotel lobby in Jeddah earlier this week, I was not thinking about the role of women in Islam, but the issue came abruptly into the picture. In my terms I felt pretty well covered in a mid-calf dark red suit with long sleves, but I was quickly conscious of disapproving stares from two hotel porters. One asked me what I was looking for in a way that made it clear I did not belong there.
I knew that women in Saudi Arabia are required to wear the long black robes known as abayas in public places, and I was hoping to find a shop that sold them in the lobby. In the meantime, I thought I would be given a pass in this hotel that catered to Western visitors. It was my temporary home–for me, it wasn't really a public place, was it? The porter's glance told me otherwise.
My abaya search was unsuccessful and I turned to a planned meeting with a colleague (a man) whom I had known for years. We sat down at a café in the middle of the lobby. A waiter materialized instantly, but said that these tables were for men only. There was a "family" section, hidden to one side, where they were willing to serve us. It's been a long time since I felt that combined sense of being unwelcome and disapproved of.
There's a fractured and often tense dialogue going on about the role of women in Muslim societies. Crudely put, on one side are "liberators" who view practices that keep women in "private space" as oppressive and archaic, counter to basic human rights. On the other are some highly articulate Muslim women who view many "liberator" arguments as patronizing and
over-simplistic. They say, first, that they should set the terms of the debate and also cite plenty of faults in western society (divorce rates among them). Facets of the traditional ways have merit, they contend. These are often angry debates and, make no mistake, they matter. At their heart is the question of the role women should play in society.
My colleague loaned me an abaya that belonged to his wife and later I managed to buy one for myself. I wore it from then on as I worked to figure out what was expected and what was required of a non-Muslim woman. The hotel open spaces clearly counted as public and "covering" was expected. At the women's college I visited, students and professors often left their abayas unbuttoned when men were not present. It's a normal part of life for most women but there is, behind it all, the reality that wearing black covering is not a choice but the law of the land. That said, the women I spoke to did not give it much importance–they cared far more about quality education and access to jobs.
I was in Saudi Arabia to discuss education issues and human development and was warmly received and escorted from place to place. So I barely brushed against the complex nuances of women's place in public after my initial hotel lobby encounter. A colleague commented as I set out for Saudi Arabia that they would find me very odd, a woman traveling alone without male
protection (or presumably authorization). But the visit was productive and educational (for me).
As I reflected on that sense of oddness, and the assumptions behind it about women's expected roles in Saudi Arabia today, memories of a time not that long ago in the United States came flooding back. I was then a young woman whose dreams rarely fit the conventional norms. Many women like me worked hard to open doors and indeed, we "have come a long way, baby!" We had to change the rules – could one attend a certain school, compete for specific jobs, hope for promotion, exercise leadership? But we also had to confront that sense of exclusion, the aura of unwelcome. I remember well a time when the prevailing sense was that women simply did not belong, were not welcome, in a world constructed without them. It took a tough skin to enter those worlds and, slowly, change the expectations.
Women in Saudi Arabia are confident that change is coming for them too, that they will accomplish their goals at their own pace and in their own way. I hope so.
By Katherine Marshall |
January 11, 2008; 1:53 PM ET
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Posted by: FreeCialis | May 23, 2008 4:28 AM
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SAD COMMENT ON HOW YOU VIEW WOMEN DOTYPELIES-
how about this mind blowing possiblity-
why don't we just take respsibility for our actions, and how we allow ourselves to be treated?
your 'twinkie defense' of indicting islam isn't flying typelies-
its not the twinkie that causes one to be fat- its the person stuffing it compulsively into their mouth-
its not the religion that exhorts violence- its the person who raises their hand or voice in anger-
get with the adults on this planet-
personal responsibility boyo-
that's what it's all about.
Posted by: VICTORIA | March 3, 2008 1:15 PM
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Posted by: uisrvh xtvjws | January 27, 2008 5:28 PM
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Regarding Muslim and Non Muslim women.
Ken is correct. Muslim women are treated like a peice of meat by force and non muslim women do it by choice.
However, at least western women are able to make their own choices which shows the totalitarian nature of Islam and the PROFIT of Islam Muhammed.
And Ms. Fatima, you are not able to convince anyone that it is not the fault of Islam. Your neighbors are not that dumb.
Posted by: DontTypeLies | January 21, 2008 6:49 AM
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well, iwas thinking more of FCC regulations, but now i have an image of paganplace walking up to her local 711, snapping her fingers, and requesting, "your finest poronographic materials, my good man!"
bro mo-
baby wasnt meant to infantalizie women (and i appreciate your instinct to move away from such)
because (i believe?) you werent raised in america, there was a virginia slims cigarette advertising campaign- geared exclusively towards women whose slogan was ,youve come a long way baby- (then wed be treated to slender attractive ecstatically trim and active white women flying planes or some such image)
although i seem to remember an equally attractive and slender ecstatically liberated african american woman with the obligatory natural afro (hairstyle)towards the end of it-
it was such a pervasive part of americana consciousness, that its entered our lexicon as some sort of (albeit artifically stimulated) clarion call to womans liberation.
i only say this because i think you were deprived of this joyous brainwashing by the tobacco industry-
sadly, my own brainwashing process is so complete that i can still sing just about every commercial jingle drilled into my impressionable young mind as a child-
that, $3, and a spot on a game show somewhere- will likely get me a cup of cappuccino
Posted by: VICTORIA | January 18, 2008 4:52 PM
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Meanwhile, it would be nice if North American society was a little more appreciative of my gynaecologist wife who, besides an MBBS from Madras University, has a DGO and an FRCOG from South Africa as well as an FRCSC from Canada. She is just superb, but is required to still write the two parts of LMCC exams, which covers the basic sciences, as if she could have excelled in her specialist examinations in both South Africa and Canada without being a first rate medical graduate.
Oh, don't get me wrong -- she will pass those exams in the next few months without any problem, but I assure you that, if you asked a Mathematician supervising doctoral students' research in Optimal Control Systems to do an exam in Algebraic Group Theory, he will complain of the pain of having to brush up on a subject in which he had proven his competence two decades ago but with which he is now completely out of touch.
Ah, well! My Muslim, hijaab-wearing wife who has also just returned, with my youngest son, from pilgrimage in Mecca and Medina and transiting through Jeddah, happens to take in all the prejudices with a smile and still keep a difficult husband happy and can show proof of having put two children through university graduating summa cum laude with a third one about to be doing the same.
She came a long way that lady (not 'baby') of mine.
Posted by: Mohamed MALLECK, Swift Current, Canada | January 17, 2008 9:15 PM
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Just to amplify an assumption:
"america also does this- if we had absolute freedom, wed have pornography on every tv station."
No, we wouldn't.
Seriously: once the 'forbidden fruit' bloom that's so carefully-cultivated by religious establishments comes off pornography, it's actually not that big a deal. In fact, it's kinda icky and clinical, when you're not sex-starved.
Mostly, I see these things, on the rare occasions I do, and think, "What terrible quality. You'd think these people never saw sex before."
I like to say, "Looking at sex is like listening to food: you have to be really hungry for it not to be kinda gross." :)
I know I'm a little odd, but in my high school days, I would always buy porn for my male contemporaries. It was kind of the price of admission that I'd walk up to the counter and say, "I'd like several issues of your finest pornography." :)
No, it wouldn't be on every TV station. Sex embarrasses people. Most would rather risk unwanted pregnancy than look a minimum-wage cashier in the eye to buy a condom.
The real money is in forbidden fruit and denial. People'll spend anything, settle for anything ...to avoid the well-cultivated-and lifelong-marketed *shame.*
That's not sex' fault, or freedom's fault... it's everyone acting like we're all sixteen-year old kids.
Frankly, as scary as so many people find 'sex' to be, they don't even know what it *is,* never mind realize that if it were on TV all the time, it'd bore the heck out of em to look at.
Posted by: Paganplace | January 17, 2008 7:07 PM
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Note that there is not one Muslim Society, and that each country has its own set if cultural practices. What you saw in Saudi Arabia was a cultural practice and was not because of Islamic laws.
I have been to Saudi Arabia and I have been to Iran. I was never treated so badly in my life as I was in Saudi Arabia (and in Lynchburg, VA); but exactly the opposite in Iran - I was never treated so well as a woman.
Iran would be a completely different experience for you, as would visiting Malaysia for instance...
And to Ibrahim Moahfouz -
Hejab comes from the inside and the outside. Both are essential. And both are required from Men and Women.
Posted by: Fatima | January 17, 2008 1:30 PM
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Re: women's place
The whole idea of shrouding women to protect their chastity is as ridiculous as mutilating their genitals. Those who advocate the Hijab, Niqab,Burqa or veil need to understand that women's chastity is shielded from within and not from outside by a shroud, organ mutilation or belt with a lock. As I noted earlier many prostitutes in Muslim societies use the veil to hide their identities in order to facilitate the practice of their profession i.e. have an opposite effect to what it is intended.
Posted by: Ibrahim Mahfouz | January 17, 2008 1:19 PM
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CAC you stated-
"That may be the case, but America is the land of opportunity for ALL people, regardless of religion, gender, race, or socio-economic background. According to you, because some women are poor, addicted, or abused; all women should be "protected" with equally oppressive societal constraints. I am not a child. I don't need to be "protected" by a patriarchal society."
now ill make some personal observations based on your response-
it isnt "may" be the case-
it IS the case.
you sidelined and dismissed that awfully qucikly-
i worked in a homeless shleter with 350 women &children, almost all abused, and also in the high 90s percentile african american and hispanic.
it would be interesting for you to come there and tell these ladies about the opportunities they have in america.
they consider themselves more than "some" people.
they (and i) consdier them as important as the most educated white person in a comfortable job-
60% of american workers have no health insurance.
i bet theyd disagree too.
and while you mischaracterized my statement that i am advocating that all "all women should be "protected" with equally oppressive societal constraints."
i said nothing even remotely like that-
my point is you must learn about an issue before you attempt to deconstruct it with any alacrity.
arguing form an emotionally based preconceived bias is hardly intelligent, or logical.
now halozcel - is hardly friendly to muslim women-
but even he pointed out that a full 1/2 of the professors in turkey (an overwhelmingly muslim majority society) are woman. with a literacy rate of almost 100%
also, id venture to say that your teeth have been protected by flouride your whole life- and the college you went to- even your dad who helped pay for your education- are all parcels of a patriarchal society that has been protecting you your whole life.
also, your entire sense of security seems to come from your own personal comfortable finaincial freedoms.
but what do you do if it collapses?
sicknesses, depression (im watching the news on the recession right now) are currently protecting you-
you have to widen your view to include those who do not share in your own blessings.
in a way, your statement sounded, to my ears, like a 'let them eat cake' sort of response.
all the earmarks of the apathetic yet oddly superior complected american psyche
it also reminded me of an expression iheard in the shelter, when a woman gets her own apartment, and leaves the shelter but refuses to offer any help to her sisters left behind-
its the "i gots mines"
yes, on an individual basis it works, from a societal vantage point it is disastrous.
and its also a flimsy security, because at some point, you will need theprotection of society, both men and women-
if were lucky, we all get old- and when you get old- you need help.
Posted by: VICTORIA | January 17, 2008 12:44 PM
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CAC-
arabs comprise only 15% of the population of muslims in the world.
the author went on a mission to learn about saudi society- but came back with a very superficial reaction, not commenting on the ideas she encountered, but a fashion report.
you had one friend who observed that you wouldnt understand her explanation-
possibly she recognized your biases that would preclude understanding-
you are demaning the female muslims in the world.
that is no better than the supposed men you are criticising.
if you want to have a conversation about partriarchy- there is no where in th world where this isnt prevalent, including the USA.
There have been powerful women leaders and administrators of nations throughout history.
quite plainly, saudi is a kingdom, not a democracy, and the oppression of women there is also an oppression of a whole people, not just women.
but at this point in history, such outdated ideas are actually bordering on dangerous.
im not cowering in a corner, and i dont own anything black, as it depresses my aesthetic sensibilities.
in an overview, it comes down to balancing the needs of the individual against the needs of society.
2 extremes are communist russia and china, and the US.
communisim completely subsumed individual rights to the state and to point where individuals had no rights.
capitalism subsumes the needs of the society to individual desires.
to the point where personal selfishness and ambition are not only encouraged, but glorified.
so that there is no concern for the welfare of the health of the entire society, and the weaker most vulnerable elements suffer.
islam (which is my subject and focus- youre welcome to have your own focus)
islam balances the needs of both-
which means that sometimes individuals cannot have everything they want when they want it- but have to consider the impact of their personal desires on their community.
society maintains some control over the overall tone of life in general.
america also does this- if we had absolute freedom, wed have pornography on every tv station.
you confuse prtoectection with opppression.
the person in islam who is strong is not the one who overpowers others with their strength, but controls their own anger.
in america, we are currently "protecting" th people of iraq-
that is not the protection your friend meant, nor myself.
protection comes expressed with loving the protected, concern for their welfare holistically- spiritual, psychic,material and emotional, psychological.
a muslim invented sociology as a soft science.
this is a very simplistic analysis, but i dont have time as i have to go to work.
(a muslim woman working? no, it cant be!)
as any mother will tell you, you still have the urge to protect your children, even when theyre getting grey hair.
its extremely likely the protection you say you dont need is a gift youve enjoyed yor whole life.
and personally, i welcome the protection of those i love around me.
and i am clearly not oppressed.
as i dont presume to speak for other people, or judge them negatively, it is somewhat tiresome when people judge without knowledge or information an entire population of women.
heres an interesting article on feminism in islam- written by a man.
we have respect for both men and women, and if a man has an intelliget insight, dont prejudice or exclude them from the conversation based upon their sex, as we don like it when its done to us.
http://www.islamonline.net/english/Contemporary/2004/06/Article01.shtml
peace
Posted by: VICTORIA | January 17, 2008 11:04 AM
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**The brutal pedophile** Who ?
Ataturk didnt rape six years old child girl.
**Ataturk hijacked Turkey in 1924**
You prove your ignorance.There was not Turkey before 1924.How could he hijack her,on the contrary,he founded Turkey.
**Turkish Islamic Glory** another fiasco.It should be *Ottoman Islamic Glory*.Which Glory ?
Could you describe the ottoman empire in 1919 ?
Would you tell women situation in ottomam.What about economic and social conditions in ottoman.
Dont write *tale*,tell about those(if you know)
The paper tiger,ottoman unconditional gave up to enemy in 1919.Was it Glory.
Turkey will be,of course,governed according to *two plus two makes four* and Human Rights,not Sharia and *Two equals one*
You and your mentor dont know ottoman history,Anatolian History and islam history.
Anatolian People had been drinking Wine since BC 7000.Alcoholic ottoman sultan Murad IV banned alcohol,tobacco and coffee,but he himself drank alcohol and he died at the age of 27 from Cirrhosis(that means he drank too much)
Persopolis was the capital city of civilization 2500 years ago.Islam came and killed.
Egypt was the center of civilization 2000 years ago.Islam came and dried.
Islam is the desert rules of bedouin which based on stone age mentality,nothing else.
Brainwashing(five times worship in arabic in a day) and violevce/fear.
**I will cast Fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve(non-muslims).Therefore strike off their heads** 8.12
Posted by: halozcel | January 17, 2008 7:52 AM
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Your ignorance of and hatered for any thing Islamic/Muslim is Appalling as usual:since the brutal pedophile,alcholic and Godless Attaturk hijacked Turkey in 1924, it became a secular despotic military dictaroship which did every thing it can to eradicate one thousand years of Turkish Islamic glory and where Islam is so deeply rooted in the Turkish soul as it is in its history and culture.
The proof is the return of grass root Islam to power strictly on its owen merits:democratic elections to the great humulation of the brutal Generals-a legecy of Attaturk-which always ruled Turkey with an iron fist and at times hanged in public sequares heads of government such as Adnan Mandiris in 1960.
Attaturk intorduced and institutionalized secular dictatorship controlled by the army AND not Secular Democracy western style:the former persecuted,oppressed and tried very hard but failed to destroy religion-Islam;a secular democracy means seperation between Church and State and protection of religion and its freedom-the very exact opposite of what Attaturk did for eighty years.
Only the likes of savy and clever Islam Haters and bashers such as Bernard Lewis,a jew,promotes Attaturk's plunders not because Lewis loves Turkey but because he hates Islam and worships the racist apartheid militaristic jewish theocray occupying Palestine-but unlike you Lewis at least knows his material thou he employes it in a very destructive fashion to incite the westren world against Islam.
I suggest u stop advertising and recyceling your ignorance and haterd of Islam and Muslim:do some srious reading and cleanse your heart and soul.
Posted by: Asim MA, San Antonio | January 17, 2008 5:13 AM
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Seems like women are treated like real pieces of meat. But even some Saudi women are happy with it. Makes me think of the comparison between Western and Muslim women in one of the biggest step in their lives: attracting, chosing and marrying a man of their choice.
Unfortunately in that respect even American women have chosen to treat themselves like a piece of meat. It is the men approaching, pursuing/asking for dates, asking for hand in marriage etc.
Posted by: Ken | January 16, 2008 3:31 PM
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No,Merve you are completely wrong.
Turkey is one of the few number 1 country where women are working.Proximately half of professors are women in 150 universities(built within 80 years in secular Turkey) and literacy rate nearly hundred percent among women.
Besides,France,Germany,England and other EU countries have already banned *religious symbols* at schools and state offices.
What was the situation in islamic ottoman period.
How many universities were there.Only Two within 620 years and what was the literacy rate among muslim women.Less then one percent.Yes,yes less then one percent.How many muslim women were working.Almost,none.How many women professors.None.The muslim woman couldnt even dream it.
Do you know *infidel sultan* Mahmud II,son of French woman who had been kidnapped by muslim pirates and sold to the Palace,in 1831 he had conducted first census in ottoman(pay attention,it is important),Women and Girls had not been counted,because they were not considered as Human.
Have you visited Topkapi Palace(Royal one of ottoman),have you seen *spounmaker diamond* and have you visited *Harem*(sex-slave section of Palace).It is a underground dungeon,no windows.The value of woman,even in the Palace was in dungeon in islamic ottoman.
Ataturk and secular Turkey gave the Freedom to Turkish women.
Secular Turkey gave the honor and Dignity to Turkish Women.
Secular Turkey gave the Human Rights to Turkish women.Yes,yes.
*If dogs,donkeys and women pass in front of praying one,salah is marred* Canonic saying.Nobody can deny this.
*women are deficient at intelligence and faith*.Canonic saying.Nobody rejects this.
Yes,secular Turkey made Human from animal.
Secular Turkey made honorable citizen from *half creature*.
What secular Turkey did about women is miracle.
Posted by: halozcel | January 16, 2008 3:00 PM
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"not all women in america have the opportunities that you enjoy and what is the superior way that we protect THEM?"
That may be the case, but America is the land of opportunity for ALL people, regardless of religion, gender, race, or socio-economic background. According to you, because some women are poor, addicted, or abused; all women should be "protected" with equally oppressive societal constraints. I am not a child. I don't need to be "protected" by a patriarchal society.
Better access to education, birth control, childcare, and decent paying jobs with good benefits is a much better solution, in my opinion, than draping women in black cloth and sitting them in a corner to "protect" them. Try using your rules on men, and see if they work. How about a society in which male members must cover themselves in shrouds in public, not be allowed in a public place without a female relative, not be able to buy a home or drive a car by himself, not be protected equally under the law or receive the same educational and economic opportunities as women.
Doesn't sound so great, does it?
Some women choose that type of lifestyle, but the operative word is "choose". When it is forced, it is called OPPRESSION.
Posted by: CAC | January 16, 2008 2:52 PM
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I hope Hillary Clinton becomes president so she can go over and be asked to put on an abaya. Then, she can tell them where to stick their abayas and politely remind King Ooby Gooby or whatever that jerk's name is that she could make a phone call and have him on ice within the hour.
Bush likes to curse Iran, Iraq, Syria, Hamas, and Afghanistan when it's Saudi Arabia who created the 9/11 hijackers. And, he still goes over there and kisses their sheik butts while proclaiming that he wants FREEDOM in the Middle East.
Saudi Arabia is the REAL enemy, and when they run out of oil, they will be toast. Yeah, King Faud, let's see how far you get trying to sell hatred and sand.
Posted by: Frank | January 16, 2008 1:04 PM
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it was atatruks militant totalitarian secular descendants who forbade women to express their public declaration of their faith by wearing a hijab in government offices, effectively silencing and excluding them from affecting policy and governance of themselves.
there are very few bedouin left on the planet.
and now, only 15% of muslims are even arab-
CAC- expresses the same condescending judgement and assumption that the author was partly guilty of.
why didnt you respect what your friend told you, instead of projecting your own doubts upon her?
"women were put on a PEDESTAL and PROTECTED and I could not understand this as an American, Christian woman"
yes, being honored and protected are not really part of the american womans experience now-
the emphasis put on our value based on sexual attractiveness doenst provide a great deal of security for american women-
i know, i worked with homeless women in chicago who didnt have the benefits of a college education and a well paying job to protect them-
and when their "attractiveness" evaporated, so did their abiltiy to prtect themselves.
whereas in an islamic context- they are protected whether or not they can still sell themselves, not constantly dieting and looking for wrinkles to see if theyve outlived their societal "usefulness".
not all women in america have the opportunities that you enjoy.
and what is the superior way that we protect THEM?
we dont protect them- period.
Posted by: VICTORIA | January 16, 2008 12:38 PM
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If Clinton were to be president would they make her wear a black abaya on official visits? I imagine there would be some sort of deference to Arab culture.
Posted by: Lesley | January 16, 2008 12:27 PM
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No,I didnt say *heartland*,but *homeland* Do you object ?
Turkey is not and can not be correct sample for *islamic rule*
First of all,Turkey is not *islamic country*,but she is secular.The Constitution and civic codex based on the secular,rational and contemporary values and the constitution prohibits *religious(islamic) rule*,even it is partially.
The majority of Turkish Nation dont live as bedouin.They drink alcohol and sleep with *Natasha*.Most of them try to live like Human.They dont regularely go to the mosques,because they dont like islam indeed(nobody including arabs likes islam in the world indeed except hired agent-provocators who pretent to like it and a few dissatisfied,old girl taken by the muslims)
But,the most of people are liar such as other muslims in all over the world.If you ask ,they may answer *Yes,we are devout muslims* etc.
But,there are,of course,taleban minded people in Turkey and Turkish community in Europe and they try to derail Turkey from Ataturk's path(civilization) and they have already advanced a little.
Turks are also contradictive men.Turkish National Anthem written by bedouin admirer M.Akif,mocks with civilization and describes it *the monster with one tooth*,but they are very eager to enter to Civilization Club EU.
The election is not enough.Hitler had come by eiection too.The elected government should obey to the Human Rights and contemporary values.
*The basic teaching of islam*.Who knows those ?
Is there any islamic country where women living as Human ?
If Saudia and *islamic republic*of Iran are not *real islam*(whatever it means),who and which government criticize them and who knows what *real islam utopia* is ?
Woman in islam is the second(even third) class citizen.It is Indisputable.The others are sophistry and myth and the headscarf,black wrap,burqa etc.are the marks of this subjugation,not modesty.
Posted by: halozcel | January 16, 2008 11:52 AM
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And let's not forget the wonderful eglatarian practice in Islam of "honor killings" certainly something to make Muslim women feel "special, venerated, and honored."
Posted by: Oy! | January 16, 2008 11:47 AM
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I was one of four women who were hired into "traditionally male" positions at an oil refinery in 1973. It is with some sadness that I find in 2007 that things are no better in American society--it has proven impossible for me to find work in "traditionally male" occupations when I have years of experience in these fields. Add to this the problem of age discrimination, and you have a recipe for economic disaster.
Posted by: Lynn Netherton | January 16, 2008 11:44 AM
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When I was in college, in the late 80's, I had a friend who was American born but of Iraqi descent. She was marrying an Iraqi man, who was studying in America, and she was moving to Iraq with him shortly after graduation. She had only had brief visits to Iraq (remember, Iraq was our friend then) with her family. I remember asking her how she would deal with the treatment of women, with the black robes, and the inability to work in her major (broadcast journalism). She explained to me that I had it all wrong. That the customs of women wearing robes and being kept separate from men was because women were put on a PEDESTAL and PROTECTED and I could not understand this as an American, Christian woman. She did mention regret that she would not be able to work in the field in broadcast journalism, because it would be improper for her to be in front of a camera.
I felt sorry for her then, and didn't really believe her convictions were heartfelt and still do not. We were young college kids with our entire lives in front of us. No young, American woman could possibly WANT a life of oppression. Twenty years later, I have a great career, bought a nice home on my own, am in a great relationship, and couldn't imagine not being able to achieve the things in life to which I aspire because of my gender. I would feel like a shell of who I really am. It would be hell on earth. I sometimes wonder what happened to my college friend. I hope she didn't end up another anonymous woman covered in black. What a horrible existence. I always hoped she got back to America and is chasing her dreams. But, it was up to her. Unfortunately, most women don't have a choice.
Posted by: CAC | January 16, 2008 11:01 AM
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If you want to read about womens' lives in Saudi Arabia from their perspective, read these two novels and the longing for freedom they express: "The Girls of Riyadh", and "Women of Sand and Myrrh" (they are available in the Fairfax County Public Libraries).
Posted by: Anonymous | January 16, 2008 10:46 AM
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Few points:
Fully agree with Victoria's two postings,namely that the piece has no subtance and only focuses on the outside shell and should have transcended it to what is behind the fashion-it is not the head cover but what is inside the head;
Also,Victoria is always patient with the same ignorant recycled one liners who look not beyond their big noses.
Saudi Arabis is not the heartland of Islam:Arabia is-Saudi is a tribe that imposed its tribal name and stamped it on top of the Arabian geography as if it were a piece of real estate;the Saudi regime is a dynastic herditory rule and has no Islamic legitimacy whatsoever-Islam is more of a republican democratic form of government and rulers are chosen and held accountable by the people as was the case during and immediately after the Prophet (pbuh).
The closest model of Islamic rule is that of the prsent day Turkish government, democratically elected.To deflect people's attention from their despotic regime which hides behind the "Abaya" of Islam,the Saudi regime keeps the population busy debating the right of women to drive and desegrate...a naive and ineffective tactic.
Islam does not require segreation of women or prevent them from driving:Turkey,Pakistan, Bangaldish and Indonesia,all elected a woman priminister even before most western nations including the USA;women fully participated in public life during the Prophet's life and he himeself was employed by a woman as her business manager-in todays terms-and eventually married her,Khadiga.
Islam only requires from women as from men modesty in dress and in behavior-otherwise restrictions her and there are either cultural varities or ignorance of the basic teaching of Islam.
Posted by: Asim MA, San Antonio | January 16, 2008 7:01 AM
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Lets forget the black cage,Janet.
Where is the woman driver in Saudia Arabia(Homeland of islam)
Where is the woman lawyer,state officer,businesswoman.
Where was the woman Sultan in Ottoman,but Elizabeth I was the Queen of England in 1558.
Where is woman actress,artist,novel writer,journalist,judge.
Lie is the base of islam.
Man can take four women.
Two women equals one man and two daughters equals one son.
Man can scourge woman.
Man can divorce his wives(his sex-slaves indeed) whenever he likes saying *I divorce you*
Are these *the teeth of comb* ?
The Potato Religion(!)
If you dont support my party,you are from the religion of Potato.The chiarman of her party(The professor of empty words)
Posted by: halozcel | January 15, 2008 1:26 PM
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victor- theres a great diaprity between islam and judeo-christian theology.
in 1920 in america when women were finally recgonized as human beings, and allowed to even own property- it was a legally protected right for women in islam for 14 centuries prior-
there no corollary for submitting to your husband- in islam women stand equally before the god responsible for their own behavior-
our identities are not subsumed by a man when we marry, we retain our family name and selfhood-
the qur'an states women and men are as equal as the teeth of the comb-
patriarchal oppression of women isnt an islamic or even religious invention-
theres no place in the world that women have attained equality -yet-
paganplace- after all the conversations weve had- you still cling to some conditioning
there is nothing deep about clothing-
it is the most superficial level to approach any culture-
you have to get past the clothing and your own reaction against it-
as a sometimes nudist, i understand it may have more importance for you than most-
but it literally, just skims the surface without penetrating
the idea that men "cant control themselves" is one of your many misunderstandings-
men have proscriptions of respectful behavior in islam just as women do.
how you always get onto the subject of rape, and the eventual evangelical christian comments-no matter what the subject, is anyones guess.
just as you would resent a stranger(lets say an evangelical christian) observing your own rituals and projecting a condescending judgement without understanding on you and your community-
the same goes with muslim women being judged on, of all things- fashion wihtout any ideas being elaborated upon.
sadly, even though the author admits she was treated with great hospitality-
she also seems to have come away with little real insight.
Posted by: VICTORIA | January 15, 2008 11:09 AM
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My question is one of the chicken and egg variety: is Islam inherently sexist? Or is this degradation of women native to the region and Islam is mainly used as a brace to reinforce "the woman's place"?
I am not an Islamic scholar, but I say the answer to both questions is "YES"!.
All 3 western monotheisms, God 1.0, 2.0 and 3.0 (Judaism, Christianity and Islam, respectively) denigrate women. Submit to your husband, and all that rot.
Is my position as a western male in a "secular", post-industrial society biased. You betcha. Am I wrong?
Ask yourself that question, as a woman, sitting in a Saudi Arabian hotel cafe...
Posted by: Victor Ponelis | January 15, 2008 8:13 AM
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Well, hey, Victoria, ...I think on issues like this, the 'culture shock' is really the first thing in the way.
On deeper levels, I think we could all say that respect for women should not be contingent on a properly-arranged piece of cloth, absent which all bets are off... in that kind of arrangement, women are always the ones who suffer, and, I think, so are men. If they are taught they can't control themselves if they see a woman's hair, or knee, or ankle, or thigh, they too are *caged.*
The West has only just come to grips with this idea, as much as it has: it's not too long since in America, the 'immodesty' of not wearing clothes that might take half an hour to don was considered 'indecent,' and what you were wearing when you got raped might result in the scorn falling on you instead of the perpetrator, if the judge was enough of a fogey to consider 'above the knee' to inherently mean 'She was asking for it.'
You bet there's culture shock involved. I think it's a sore spot, particularly among American evangelicals, cause it's not long since they were the bad guys in this sort of thing. Not long since in 'our' own cultural context, the idea that men aren't responsible for what nasty things they do to women based on a piece of fabric is... Well. Hardly moral.
Mirrors, and all.
Posted by: Paganplace | January 14, 2008 3:28 PM
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What is striking about this is that I remember years ago (11) in India getting a disapproving look in a town near Calcutta for wearing a top with my shoulders showing. Now, many of the girls wear such tops.........I wonder whether or how long it will take for such change and "modernisation"/Westernisation to filter into Jeddah too?
Posted by: Olly Donnelly | January 14, 2008 1:11 PM
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What is striking about this is that I remember years ago (11) in India getting a disapproving look in a town near Calcutta for wearing a top with my shoulders showing. Now, many of the girls wear such tops.........I wonder whether or how long it will take for such change and "modernisation"/Westernisation to filter into Jeddah too?
Posted by: Olly Donnelly | January 14, 2008 1:11 PM
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What is striking about this is that I remember years ago (11) in India getting a disapproving look in a town near Calcutta for wearing a top with my shoulders showing. Now, many of the girls wear such tops.........I wonder whether or how long it will take for such change and "modernisation"/Westernisation to filter into Jeddah too?
Posted by: Olly Donnelly | January 14, 2008 1:11 PM
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this is an interesting experience that ms marshall relates.
first, people always seem to forget that the same social atmosphere that saudi men developed in is also the atmosphere saudi women develop in.
i would have liked to have heard what ms marshall came away from the experience with in terms of ideas, but this piece is empty of that.
instead we are treated to another western culture shock and then more comparisons and projections of personal non-related experiences.
it seems like it was kind of a missed opportunity
to give us an insight into the thinking processes of saudi women -
we are already aware of their clothing styles.
the author couldnt seem to get past it to bring us any deeper observations.
it would be like a saudi woman visiting here, and making judgements abut our lack of dress and how women seem to be valued mostly for their sexually attractive worth-
and then go home and wrote a piece about bikinis.
Posted by: VICTORIA | January 14, 2008 11:41 AM
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**Women in Saudi Arabia are confident that *change* is coming for them too**
Yes,correct.*Change* will come,perhaps,1000 years later(I am spectical for that time too).
**The women dont give it much importence(black wrap),but they want *quality education* and *access to jobs* **
What will happen...
What will happen if you live in black cage as *half creature*.
But,if you learn english,you can read some funny articles like above one.
Posted by: halozcel | January 13, 2008 2:22 AM
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Umm, yeah, though... I gather red isn't a respectable color to wear over there, all the rest aside.
Of course, I think if I ever went to Saudi Arabia, even the locals would be saying, 'You look like someone threw a khaki sheet over Jackie O.' 'That's all right, I can't even see.'
Ok, not a grand contribution to world theology, but... no one else is saying anything. :)
Posted by: Paganplace | January 12, 2008 10:02 PM
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