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Dobson Warns Republicans; Democrats Glimpse Rapture of Their Own
On Thursday's Op/Ed page of The New York Times Dr. James Dobson relayed the minutes of a meeting of “pro-Family leaders” that took place in Salt Lake City the previous Saturday. Those assembled, according to Dobson, unanimously agreed that “if neither of the two major political parties nominates an individual who pledges himself or herself to the sanctity of human life, we will join others in voting for a minor-party candidate.”
This bold declaration (aimed solely and squarely at one major political party) invites endless speculation. I will limit myself to four random observations.
First: Dobson's threat could be seen as a total, what-I've-actually-got-here-is-a-pair-of-Jacks bluff meant to wrench as many concessions as possible from the first-tier of Republican presidential contenders -- Rudy Giuliani in particular. Dobson, in this reading, is helpfully encouraging the candidates to ask themselves the following questions: 1) What might it be like running against Hillary Clinton without the support of a constituency that accounted for 40 percent of George W. Bush’s vote in 2004? and, 2) What steps might I take in order to avoid that scenario?
Second: Did John McCain know in advance that this Utah ultimatum was in the works? If so, does this account for what I referred to as his “lurch to the (Christian) Right”? Sen. McCain is Christing-up so dramatically as to have whipped the nation’s punditry into a frenzy. (Dobson, incidentally, has expressed a consistent antipathy for McCain and stated that he would not vote for him “under any circumstances.” Come to think of it, he has also doubted whether Fred Thompson was actually a Christian, but that's a different story).
Third: In his essay, Dobson challenged the contention made by the “secular media” that the “Conservative Christian movement is hopelessly fractured and internally antagonistic.” A point I have been making in previous posts is that the movement need not be “hopelessly fractured” for it to be losing political clout.
Let us imagine that the Democrats in 2008 galvanize their base of Mainline Protestants, Latino Catholics, and Jews (a development observed in the 2006 mid-term elections). Let us imagine that they improve upon Kerry’s astonishing failures among non-Latino Catholics. If they can pull this off--and nothing suggests that this is a daunting task--then they will not need to win the White Evangelical vote. They will simply need to make sure that it is not as absurdly tilted toward the GOP as it was in 2004.
Of course, the possibility exists that Dobson and his colleagues are not bluffing. If they do abandon the Republicans then they will surely induce a Blue-state rapture: the return of a Democrat to the White House in triumph and in glory and the relegation of the once-mighty White Evangelicals to the hellish oblivion of third-party politics.
By Jacques Berlinerblau |
October 5, 2007; 8:40 AM ET
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Posted by: Ki-Jana | October 9, 2007 2:40 PM
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As an atheist, I am surprised to observe that Americans are so intolerant of other religious beliefs. What is the difference between us and the Muslims.Does Jeusus Crist really teach us to be like that? Or is it just the churches want to be so self righteous and politically dominating? Have the Christians forgetton why they have come to this country on the Mayflower ship? No wonder Chairman Mao Tse-Dong wanted to get rid of all the religious groups from China, Christians,Catholics,Muslims,Buddhist, etc. Maybe there is good reason for that.After all, almost 90% of the wars in the western history were caused by religious conflicts. Have we leaned anything? Let us treat the religious belief as a private matter and all live in peace. Maybe God really wants that!
Posted by: John Y. Cheng | October 9, 2007 9:52 AM
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As an atheist, I am surprised to observe that Americans are so intolerant of other religious beliefs. What is the difference between us and the Muslims.Does Jeusus Crist really teach us to be like that? Or is it just the churches want to be so self righteous and politically dominating? Have the Christians forgetton why they have come to this country on the Mayflower ship? No wonder Chairman Mao Tse-Dong wanted to get rid of all the religious groups from China, Christians,Catholics,Muslims,Buddhist, etc. Maybe there is good reason for that.After all, almost 90% of the wars in the western history were caused by religious conflicts. Have we leaned anything? Let us treat the religious belief as a private matter and all live in peace. Maybe God really wants that!
Posted by: John Y. Cheng | October 9, 2007 9:50 AM
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The sad thing about all of this is that Bush didn't win either election, the republicans cheated their way into the white house. It doesn't matter what the "Christian" right does, the republican party is doomed for quite a long time, by this administrations behavior.
Posted by: Michael | October 9, 2007 6:12 AM
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"Let us imagine that the Democrats in 2008 galvanize their base of Mainline Protestants, Latino Catholics, and Jews (a development observed in the 2006 mid-term elections). Let us imagine that they improve upon Kerry’s astonishing failures among non-Latino Catholics. If they can pull this off--and nothing suggests that this is a daunting task..."
The Democrats have always taken black voters for granted and there is no reason to believe they will not also take Latino voters for granted. It just never pays to underestimate the Democrats' ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. They have become as arrogant as the GOP in failing to heed the will of the people.
Posted by: Helena Montana | October 9, 2007 4:05 AM
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"Let us imagine that the Democrats in 2008 galvanize their base of Mainline Protestants, Latino Catholics, and Jews (a development observed in the 2006 mid-term elections). Let us imagine that they improve upon Kerry’s astonishing failures among non-Latino Catholics. If they can pull this off--and nothing suggests that this is a daunting task..."
The Democrats have always taken black voters for granted and there is no reason to believe they would not also take Latino voters for granted. It just never pays to underestimate the Democrats' ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. They have become as arrogant as the GOP in failing to heed the will of the people.
Posted by: Helena Montana | October 9, 2007 4:04 AM
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Not happy days these are for J.D.
He hasn't gotten and will not get his
opportunity for a new round of trials
at Salem. i.e. - the burning of anyone
and everyone in America that
he and his minions do not approve of.
Expect the founding of a New Confederacy, folks; somewhere near Stumphole, Oklahoma.
Posted by: future ghost of Larry Craig | October 9, 2007 12:51 AM
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In April 1967, I listened as the Hoover Tower faculty hounded Martin Luther King in Memorial Hall on the Stanford campus. I listened with rapture as Rev King spoke out against the immorality of the Vietnam war and the criminality of spending money on that violence when we had so many needs here at home.
Dobson is the antithesis of King. His followers are the epitomy of the Anti-Christ.
Where have all the great religious leaders gone? How have we allowed ourselves to become war criminals in Iraq? Where has all the outrage gone? It is just too bad that we did not have a draft in 2002 when this madness started. There may be no atheists in foxholes; but there are surely no true Christains who would stand for what we have done to the people of Iraq in the name of those who say they are for "saving babies" in the USA.
Posted by: cbday | October 8, 2007 10:44 PM
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I think that Dobson is really talking about the early stages of a new party. The repubs worked long and hard to convince the evangelicals to support them. They started small and worked and worked. Now Dobson is starting to do the same thing. They are looking down the road and saying 'We will build our own party and the Repubs be damned'.
Posted by: Doug Jones | October 8, 2007 8:58 PM
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"K" speaks for me, thanks for not mincing words.
Sooner we rid ourselves of the American Taliban (AT) of Dobson, Robertson, Haggard, the late Jerry Falwell, Liberty U grads in the DOJ, Rove, et al, the BETTER off will be ALL Americans. The AT zealots are about money and power; and then using it to force their version of a belief system on all of us.
Remember the words of Sinclair Lewis: "When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." With the Bush crowd, we're as close to that as I ever want to get, and as close as we've ever been. Time to vote the GOP out and teach them a lesson they'll never forget.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 8, 2007 8:03 PM
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All religion is myth.
All moral standards are relative, and of human invention.
No one ever has any right to dictate moral decisions to anyone else.
Human nature will be the downfall of humanity.
Discuss.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 8, 2007 8:00 PM
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You know how all those sheeple were saying they were happy "God was in the Whitehouse" after GW Bush got elected?
Wouldn't it be great if Jesus's teachings (the Prince of Peace and messenger of God's love) turned up in the philosophy of these blow-hards and not just on their iconography?
We could say Christ was in Christianity.
As it is, I wish these folks that follow the likes of Dobson (and Jim Jones) would wake up and make well-informed choices on policy, become real wonks. Then they would not only have decent politicians on their side of the aisle, but their churches would be wholesome places to be again.
Posted by: LiberalTarian | October 8, 2007 7:37 PM
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Donson and the Fundimentalist crowd are truly scary people who have done a lot of harm. What people are ignoring right now that that Hillary Clinton and the collection of feminists, corporations, and security moms pushing her are the polar opposite of these people. Donson and company only had peripheral influence on the Bush Whitehouse, but the Hillary crowd would be completely unfettered in their remaking society. You can be certain that every extra-constitutional footstep Bush took will be emulated by a Clinton presidency...and taken one step further. What will it be? An executive order confiscating firearms? A banning of Fundimentalist preaching (her followers have already labeled sermons calling homosexuality a sin a form of hate speech)? An order banning certain kinds of protests, like those outside feminist meetings? Assembling a watch list of people who oppose free trade (remember, she and Bill made their fortune from promoting outsourcing and supplying H1-B guest workers). Who knows, but her recent stunt of calling someone asking uncomfortable questions "a plant", her belief in conspiracies, her past actions to punish anyone who disagrees with her using any means available ought to give one thought. It may be temporarily fun to wreck Dobson and the churches that support him and his views; it may sound like a great idea to destroy the NRA and punish the "gun nuts", but the long term consequences will be of a country even more divided than now, one that will tear itself apart. It may be inevitable, but we simply cannot survive a Clinton presidency nor any presidency that resembles what she and Bush and Guliani and Thompson and Romney and Richardson or any of the other insiders would bring. We need a moderate, someone who can heal this nation and bring us together as a people, not someone who would act out the revenge for some group or other.
Posted by: Mike Brooks | October 8, 2007 7:35 PM
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James Dobson, a homophobic, bigoted, christian creep speaks for his family, a few friends, and several hundred thousand like minded christian morons. He and his ilk are in the last days of their political power. Non-white America is approaching and the far-right, pure-white, religious con-men like Mr. Dobson and his evil brothers-in-Christ are about to enter the kingdom of political HELL.
Posted by: xona | October 8, 2007 7:28 PM
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I LOVE what George Will had to say on ABC sunday program to the christian conservative cabal... "Grow UP" Who does Dobson Inc. think they are? They're a RELIGIOUS group and as we all know ... there is a 'seperation of churh and state"
Posted by: Anonymous | October 8, 2007 7:04 PM
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Let them run a third party. Do they think Sam Brownback has a chance? They might as well marginalize themselves by pulling their votes out.
It will let mainstream Republicans return to their roots instead of pandering to the likes of those who've brought us Larry Craig.
Posted by: AnnR | October 8, 2007 6:56 PM
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As the saying goes, "From your mouth to God's ear!"
Posted by: Cal Gal | October 8, 2007 6:43 PM
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Dobson would perform his greatest service to America if he were to go forward with his plans. How much better off we would be if the hate-filled mutants who hold an image of Jesus that has gone so terribly wrong, could all climb aboard an arc and leave the rest of us on shore to approach the world more rationally. If McCain appeals to this ship of fools, it only confirms that when he slithered across the stage at the 2004 Convention to lick Bush's feet, John left his soul behind.
Posted by: TWstroud | October 8, 2007 6:26 PM
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Go Dobson Go! As one of the many millions of godless democrats I can only "pray" (ha ha) that Gulliani gets the nomination, and those crazy right wing cultists put forth their own candidate. This will ensure a democratic victory, which is just what the country needs. Bush has raped the middle class, and murdered her children, with the a needless war. Everybody knows under the republicans the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. I know it's a cliche, but it's true. So the same group who oppose democrats in general and Hillary in particular, will benefit from a democratic regime. They are just to stupid to realize it.
Posted by: Steve Zeigler | October 8, 2007 4:06 PM
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Here's a thought for the Focus on the Family crowd....why don't you quit trying to run everybody else's lives and work on something useful like feeding the needy?
Posted by: dan | October 8, 2007 3:59 PM
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Here's a thought for the Focus on the Family crowd....why don't you quit trying to run everybody else's lives and work on something useful like feeding the needy?
Posted by: dan | October 8, 2007 3:59 PM
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Dobson is an empty suit.
A Haunt of horrible times from our own Cival War.
His ilk remind me of the Civil War Churches and evangelized for the South directly helping the South recruit Soldiers.
Their Preachings were carefully constructed to confuse the Concept the US Constitution. Just like the neocons are doing today.
Twist of the meaning of our Constitution. For the South and Dobson "All Men were Created equal." Except for Slaves, Black and of course women were already in their place.
This subtle Southern prejudice is practiced everyday by Dobson. Yet enough people keep buying into it.
Posted by: Issa | October 8, 2007 3:29 PM
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Dobson is an empty suit.
A Haunt of horrible times from our own Cival War.
His ilk remind me of the Civil War Churches and evangelized for the South directly helping the South recruit Soldiers.
Their Preachings were carefully constructed to confuse the Concept the US Constitution. Just like the neocons are doing today.
Twist of the meaning of our Constitution. For the South and Dobson "All Men were Created equal." Except for Slaves, Black and of course women were already in their place.
This subtle Southern prejudice is practiced everyday by Dobson. Yet enough people keep buying into it.
Posted by: Issa | October 8, 2007 3:29 PM
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If there is a "GOP Apocalypse" it will mean the prayers of millions will have been for nought. That just can't be.
Posted by: david | October 8, 2007 3:21 PM
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Stop using my name for your conservative political agenda. I was a hippie who deplored the Philistines. I deplore FOTF. Tony Perkins and "Dr." Dobson are fanatics attempting to create a theocratic society. They can only reign in hell.
Posted by: Jesus | October 8, 2007 2:33 PM
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Stop using my name for you conservative political agenda. I was a hippie who deplored the Philistines. I deplore FOTF. Tony Perkins and "Dr." Dobson are fanatics attempting to create a theocratic society. They can only reign in hell.
Posted by: Jesus | October 8, 2007 2:33 PM
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James Dobson and the rest of the Christian Coalition are going to fade into oblivion once again. The American public is fed up with the holier-than-thou right wing Republicans like Larry Craig and Newt Gingrich who tsk-tsk-tsk about Bill Clinton, but are either cheating on their own wives or having anonymous public restroom sex with other men. Fake issues like gay marriage and Terri Schiavo are not going to play in 2008. After 8 yrs of Bush and Cheney, people are starving for intellectual, competent, and reasonable leaders who actually give a damn about the future of this country.
Posted by: Debbie | October 8, 2007 2:28 PM
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You forgot another, and more likely option:
Dobson succeeds in getting the Republican nominees to further compromise and abase themselves before the Religious Reich. They win the nomination, but like in 1992, the general public is so disgusted and fed up with theocracy, that combined with anger over Iraq and general Bush fatigue, the Republicans lose 15 more House seats, 8 Senate seats and Hillary wins over 350 electoral vote.
The question for the GOP is: how do we placate the Right with losing the nation? Maybe the answer is: we tell them where they can stick it.
Posted by: AxelDC | October 8, 2007 2:17 PM
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I think the best thing that the GOP could do is drop-kick Dobson and his ilk out of the tent. Sure, they'd lose support in the short run, but they'd gain integrity and more long-lasting support in the long term.
Posted by: Robert B. | October 8, 2007 2:12 PM
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Dobson and his colleagues are not bluffing. At a prayer breakfast with White House Spiritual Leader Pastor Ted Haggard, Dobson choked on sausage while condemning Spongebob to torture, sleep deprivation, solitary confinement, Iron Maiden's latest album, and all-American electric shocks to the genitals.
Posted by: Pastor Ted | October 8, 2007 2:00 PM
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Mr Mark,
How is this for spin? According to 2005 data concerning federal minimum wage earners:
1) Only 1 in 5 workers live in a family with earnings below the poverty line.
2) 60% work part time with an average household income above $40,000.
3) More than 50% are under the age of 25 and more than 25% are between the ages of 16 and 19.
4) 60% of federal minimum wage earners work in restaurant and bars and earn tips in addition to their wages.
5) 29 states, accounting for 70% of the nation's workforce, have set minimum wages above the federal minimum.
Thank you for your support.
Posted by: Ki-Jana | October 8, 2007 12:36 PM
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Tha "sanctity of human life", huh? Unless of course you're a godless towelhead. What about unborn muslims-do they count? Doubt it. These idiots now own the Republican Party and have a stangehold on the entire electorate. These things come in cycles and the current group has about a half a tank left. What do you suppose would happen if a courageous, small government, fiscally responsible Republican went public with his distaste for Dobson? It's worth a shot.
Posted by: Ray | October 8, 2007 12:36 PM
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Republicans are regligious in a godless sort of way.
Posted by: J.W. Miller | October 8, 2007 9:13 AM
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Right on - the Bush II presidency seems to have been won due to an inordinately high voter turnout specifically by the Evangelical right, for Bush, the candidate who was firm on 'security' and on 'conservative values'. In the past, rather than having switched to a Democrat, US evangelicals have become disinterested in politics as an 'unholy dirty business' and have decided to NOT bother to vote; a scenario which is even more likely to repeat itself in 2008.
None of the current Republican candidates are a welcome fit for the Christian right; most even have, to quote Rove, 'clear negatives'. Disillusionment and 'withdrawal from the world' is the most likely pendulum reaction in 2008 and this, along with the generally much stronger candidates on the Democrat side, are likely to take the US presidency away from the GOP.
Posted by: Josh Vanhee | October 8, 2007 8:51 AM
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I think Dobson is greatly overating his own ability to control the evangelical vote. But then again, he does have the death squad Blackwater Prince's money to back up his campaign. Dobson got evenagelicals to vote for Bush twice and now they look more like the block who promoted the anti-christ to power than a push for morality. If "what you do for the least of these" applies to any of the evangelicals consciences, they would be better to spend November of 2008 in sack cloth and ashes than at the voting booth.
Posted by: Fishingriver | October 8, 2007 8:33 AM
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Eisenhower got it right when he said that "if anyone ever tampers with Social security, and they are mostly texas oil millionairs, their party will never be heard from again".
what a great prophet he was !
Posted by: Michael | October 8, 2007 8:08 AM
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With all due respect to Mr. Dobson (which is to say, none)... it's embarassing to see how they are now flexing their muscles and how the rest of the country should apparently shudder at the thought of Evangelicals taking their votes to a third party.
Hey Dobson, this is your president. You've had 8 years, and THIS is what you and the extreme Christian vote got us. Why don't you instead encourage your congregation to enlist in the military and finish the wars we are in because of this administration. When you all get back from seeing the real world, you can tackle abortion...
Posted by: Rick | October 8, 2007 7:00 AM
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Enough-have any of you read the Constitution lately? There is a very good reason our founding fathers chose to keep religion out of politics. This is a Christian country? Where does it say that? As was so well pointed out in another article, that would mean that Jesus could not have been President.
Let's start voting for people who can steer this country back to greatness. Not what we now havex-corporate welfare.
Posted by: Martin Trucker | October 8, 2007 6:41 AM
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We can thank the "once-mighty White Evangelicals" for supporting the Evangelical-in-Chief who has presided over the worst presidency in U.S. history.
So I, for one, won't shed a single tear when this country returns to its senses and stops being run by a bunch of corrupt, inept Bible thumpers.
Posted by: Christian in NYC | October 8, 2007 5:50 AM
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The Dems and the GOP can ignore the evangelicals if they want, but the evangelicals are increasing their hold over the military in this country (google: "Weinstein, Air Force Academy" for a taste of what's currently happening and what's to come), and the military-industrial-congressional complex runs the show.
So whether GOP or Dem, anyone who really wants to succeed in politics will have to come, hat in hand, to those who present themselves as Christ's vicars here on earth and they'll have to present their credentials.
If said supplicants and sycophants say they favor a final military conquest of Evil (which, currently, is the "Evil Empire" of radical Muslims, although it used to be the "Evil Empire" of the commies, and tomorrow, who knows?, it might be the "Evil Empire" of the agnostics, the liberals or the Jews), then the God-guided evangelical military-industrialists will bless their campaigns and anoint them and declare that Christ speaks through them.
The only thing sensible people in this country can do is load up on defense stocks and wait, eagerly, for Armageddon. For apparently it's part of Christ's plan that clever Americans should get rich when apostate Muslims die.
Gary A
Posted by: Gary A | October 8, 2007 12:46 AM
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"Maybe...just maybe.....Dobson and his crew believe that the consequences of losing political clout is nothing compared to not taking a stand against what they believe is morally wrong. The latter being killing unborn babies."
Those are called "fetuses," and Dobson is part of the same religious terrorist faction that "loves 'em until they're born." These people hate anything not white, rich and worshiping Jeeee-zus 24 hours a day.
They have no morality. What's even clearer is, they have no lives, but have found a way to power through the manipulation and use of fear inherent in unprovable religious myth. The hating god they portray doesn't exist any more than a pile of old diapers. Dobson is the worst type of religious fascist who imagines far more power for his "angels of terror" than actually exists.
Dobson the lunatic: like a mad dog, needs to be put down. ANYone that panders to this man has no business being a president. Look at our current religiously deluded Worst. President. Ever. Need I say more?
Posted by: Steve | October 7, 2007 10:09 PM
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"Maybe...just maybe.....Dobson and his crew believe that the consequences of losing political clout is nothing compared to not taking a stand against what they believe is morally wrong. The latter being killing unborn babies."
Those are called "fetuses," and Dobson is part of the same religious terrorist faction that "loves 'em until they're born." These people hate anything not white, rich and worshiping Jeeee-zus 24 hours a day.
They have no morality. What's even clearer is, they have no lives, but have found a way to power through the manipulation and use of fear inherent in unprovable religious myth. The hating god they portray doesn't exist any more than a pile of old diapers. Dobson is the worst type of religious fascist who imagines far more power for his "angels of terror" than actually exists.
Dobson the lunatic: like a mad dog, needs to be put down. ANYone that panders to this man has not business being a president. Look at our current religiously deluded Worst. President. Ever.
Posted by: Steve | October 7, 2007 10:07 PM
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"you should keep your blasphemous thoughts to yourself" sums up the lobotomized mentality of hateful old doddering Dobson and his lemmings. No free speech, no freedom of religion - just shut your mounth and blindly believe as we do. Cheney has the same mentality. Those against the war "embolden the enemy" during "the war on terror" These maniacs have hijacked America. It's time we take it back from them before our grand-children recite this to the wall in school daily:
I pledge allegiance to the to the Homeland of the Christian States of America and to the theocracy for which it stands, one nation obeying only our true Christian God, with no tolerance and acceptance for anyone different. Amen.
Posted by: Roy | October 7, 2007 9:53 PM
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I'm a former deacon in a SBC church, and I left because I couldn't stand it anymore. Dobson and other "leaders" in the Christian conservative movement spend all their time talking to each other and never to anybody else. The normal person who sits in the pew has to go out into the world to live and work among all types of people, and somehow make it work. This is what Jesus did, not spending his time in some ivory tower disparaging anybody who disagreed with Him. Some folks seemed determined to turn self-righteouness into an artform.
Posted by: Kenny | October 7, 2007 9:00 PM
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Let's see the Republicans ran on Christian Family/Moral Values.
Bush has lied from day one and continues to lie.
Cheney has been working with deals on oil with Iran since 2005.
The Evangelist and Jewish Leaders worked together to embarrass the Iran President God made sure it didn't work.
The Evangelist and Jewish Leaders are working on illegally attacking Iran to fulfill the Bible's time of the end. Right now the Evangelist are fighting each other for money that was given by the White House. Seems the Church isn't working what God or Jesus taught but more like Satan's lessons.
GOP have given full support to Fingers Foley a child molester, Larry Craig a pervert and Senator Vitter who hires prostitutes and still does. Many crooks in the GOP and thieves who have stolen taxpayers money and the Iraq's money.
Justice Thomas out right lies about not getting a job when he graduated from college as he knew he was offered a job and excepted one when he was in his second year of college.
Senator Steven used Taxpayers money to rebuild his home. Gonzales lied under oath as well as ordering torture. All the appointees of the GOP lied under oath.
This is what Republicans call following Christian Values but it's not God's teachings it's Satan's.
Posted by: Jackie | October 7, 2007 7:48 PM
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Given that it is logically impossible to be both Republican and to follow the spirit of what Jesus asked of us, any evangelical who respects himself would break from this party *yesterday*. So yes, this is not only likely but inevitable.
Posted by: B2O2 | October 7, 2007 7:02 PM
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Matthew, you are so sure that you have the ultimate truth, and so foolish to think that way.
I don't claim to have the ultimate truth, but I can tell you this: be careful about believing in things just because you want them to be true. The universe has a funny habit of sneeking up and smacking you in the face when you believe things just because you want them to be true.
And as far as keeping my opinions to myself, I have just as much right be heard as you do, regardless of your loony interpretation of our constitution.
You sound more like a Nazi than a christian to me.
Posted by: Dr.R.P. | October 7, 2007 4:44 PM
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Quoting the bible is just an old, CIRCULAR argument
based on old myths and rules that were handed down for tens of thousands of years ( most probably based on groups food/fear needs to survive.......and then add one slightly smarter cookie to "explain" their fears and make the cookie (priest, shaman, preacher. etc.) exempt from work) That kinda still works today, right ?
Posted by: SK | October 7, 2007 3:00 PM
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Jacques
Don't toy with me.
This is my fondest dream.
A reverse Rapture for the Republican Party.
Left behind!
First a great cleansing of our body politic and then irrelevancy and eventual extinction for those who have destroyed our nation.
From your lips to God's ears
Posted by: Paul Townsend | October 7, 2007 2:58 PM
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Jacques
Don't toy with me.
This is my fondest dream.
A reverse Rapture for the Republican Party.
Left behind!
First a great cleansing of our body politic and then irrelevancy and eventual extinction for those who have destroyed our nation.
From your lips to God's ears
Posted by: Paul Townsend | October 7, 2007 2:57 PM
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"If they do abandon the Republicans then they will surely induce a Blue-state rapture: the return of a Democrat to the White House in triumph and in glory and the relegation of the once-mighty White Evangelicals to the hellish oblivion of third-party politics."
According to Scripture, such a hellish existence lies in store only for the Republicans that don't convert to Democrats.
Posted by: trippin | October 7, 2007 2:38 PM
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I think it's time for the evangelicals to call on Ralph Nader to be their savior from those fickle Republican can't-make-up-their-minds candidates. Welcome aboard Ralph!
Posted by: Victor Kelley | October 7, 2007 2:19 PM
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I rolled my eyes in disbelief at Dobson's NYT op-ed piece. The words "values" and "Dobson" in the same sentence are a hilarious oxymoron. Ralph Reed recruited Dobson to aid convicted felon Jack Abramoff in his campaign to oppose an Indian tribe (Jena Band of Choctaws ) that was seeking to open a casino that might hurt the Coushatta tribe that Abramoff was representing. Dobson wrote to interior secretary Gail Norton opposing the Jena bid for a casino. http://www.worldmag.com/pdf/2002.pdf#page=15 Ralph Reed bragged about his success in recruiting Dobson to Abramoff. http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A30274-2005Mar12?language=printer
Dobson also gave a blessing to Newt Gingrich earlier this year when he floated a trial balloon for his presidential campaign. Newt confessed that he was having an affair was a staffer while leading an impeachment campaign against Clinton for his affair with Lewinsky. That would be the same Newt who is now on his 3rd wife, and let the first Mrs. Gingrich learn that he was divorcing her while in a hospital being treated for cancer. He told an aide that he-- the speaker of the house-- could not be married to such an unattractive woman. You have to love those republican family value!!! Dobson-- the values test guy-- has no problem endorsing Newt despite his considerable baggage.
Of course, the notion of "republicans" and "family value" mentioned in the same sentence seems like a crude (and cruel) comedy sketch in light of recent events: Senator Larry Craig cruising for a hookup in an airport bathroom stall; Senator David Vitter confessing to using the services of a prostitute; Rep. Mark Foley hitting on young house male pages. After Newt stepped down as speaker in the aftermath of the 2000 election, in which republican lost seats for pursing impeachment against Clinton, Rep. Bob Livingston was chosen as Newt's successor-- until he resigned because he admitted to adultery. Livingston's successor in the House was David Vitter, who wrote an op-ed during Clinton's impeachment trial in the New Orleans Times Picayune calling for him to resign because he acted immorally. That was the man who seeing prostitutes in New Orleans (when he was a state senator) and in Washington when he was elected to the house and later the senate. Then there was Ted Haggard, the republican minister who was outed by a gay prostitute for having gay sex and doing crystal meth.
Oh yes: Republican Values!!!
Posted by: Ken | October 7, 2007 2:05 PM
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At the dawn of time primitive humans, first in small bands, then in tribes and eventually in collective entities within defined bounderies, sought to explain the world in which they lived. They possessed the need to understand the wonderous phenomena of life, death, fertility, fire, water, the seasons and the inexplicable mystery of good and bad fortune. Lacking the as yet undiscovered factual information to satisfactorily explain their proximate world, let alone the boundless universe, they invented myths and found security in superstions. Their hunger for understanding faciliated the unrestrained power of humankind's imagination - larger than life gods and godesses with limitless supernatural powers sated that need and provided important answers. Those mythical creatures demanded fealty in return for favor, and set rules to satisfy their egoistic demands. The roots of religion were nurtured in the corrupt soil of faith over reason, and bore the poisened fruit of blind belief in the powers of the supernatural. The rules of imagined reality soon came to be enforced by tribal power, and then impressed on the malleable young to be forever perpetuated and defended in generations yet unborn. Conflicts in the beliefs of different tribes became sufficient reason to severly punish and even kill. Civilized people today acknowledge the pernicious evil of racism, yet benignly accept the primeval rot of religious tradition. After centuries of accumulated knowledge and the reality of scientific discovery based on logic and reason, primitive supernatural myths and superstions endure. The infliction of suffering and punitive death in response to apostasy to such superstitious belief plagues the planet today. It is wrong to elect leaders intelectually incapable of rejecting the primitive ideas of antideluvian minds. More so, it is a tragic error - fraught, as we have so recently seen, with terrible and unforseen consequences. The governance of a modern state requires the facile judgment of intellectually charged enlightened minds grounded in logic and reason, and possessed of insatiable curiosity for knowledge. Until we as a nation recognize that fundamental truth, the specious manipulation and pandering to superstition and myth in the name of religious ideology will perniciously and malignantly deny all of our citizens the rights and security the founding father's envisioned in their extraorinary and novel experiment in freedom. May enlightenment and truth, not superstition, bless America.
Posted by: The Metaphysicist | October 7, 2007 1:43 PM
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Matthew
Please read the Mayflower Compact. You will find that the Separatists (Pilgrims) recognized they could not survive without the Strangers (non-believers, like Stephen Hopkins) help and, after having lived in exile in Holland where there was a separation of church and state, agreed that the only solution was to form a secular government in the new colony. The Compact was signed and an election held before they stepped foot off the ship. While a Pilgrim won the election for Governor (because they held a slim majority), this should not be construed as this country being "founded based on Christianity" or "religous freedom." As a Mayflower descendant, I cringe every time I hear this. It is a misrepresentation of history. I suggest you read the book "Mayflower" and see just how "Chrisitan" these folks were, and how much they believed in religiuos freedom.
The Founding Fathers, i.e., Jefferson, Adams, Madison, Washington, Franklin, etc. were of various faiths, and they were not all Christians, as you imply. Note that the word God does not appear anywhere in the US Consitution. This is by design.
While you may need a book to tell you how to be humane, many do not. To suggest that they will all burn in Hell or called to account is your right, but consider that you may not be right either. As a human you are as fallible as the next, so what gives you the right to dictate how others behave? You cannot legislate morality, because no two individuals have the same belief in the meaning of the word. As Jefferson said, "But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
Ovid,
The Founding Fathers did recognize other faiths outside of Christianity. In developing the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom (the basis of the 2nd Amendment) Jefferson wrote "Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting 'Jesus Christ,' so that it would read 'A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;' the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."
Posted by: ceverman | October 7, 2007 1:27 PM
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In the usual spiritual questing (fill in the blanks) I attended a fundamentalist, "spirit-filled," "Bible-believing church" for maybe a year and a half. It's a national, well-established denomination. As is typical, but you never hear about this from the national Christian political movers and shakers, most of the members believed that few attendees at the older, familiar American denominations (such as Methodists and sure as heck Catholics) were saved. If George Bush was just an ordinary citizen, these people would be cajoling him to join their church for the sake of his soul.
I write this from Salt Lake City. Don't even get me started on the particular brand of lunacy in power out here.
Posted by: Mike D. | October 7, 2007 1:24 PM
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Perhaps, as Dobson's FOF runs off the rails as Ovid suggests, they will take Planned Parenthood and the likes of Moveon with them.
Posted by: Robert Ference | October 7, 2007 12:56 PM
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Jewish civilization...is that an oxymoron? The one thing the Jews have failed at over and over again is civilization. Their "good" books are nothing but a litany of civilization failures for themselves and certainly for their enemies! Kings is an endless list of failures; most Jewish triumphs are decimating other civilizations down to the last child, goat, and blade of grass! Recent history is just more of the same; what about Judism creates and endless bloodbath?
Posted by: Chaotician | October 7, 2007 12:52 PM
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The "fundamentalist right" has finally realized how they have been used and that the mainline Repubs. never intended to deliver.
Posted by: joeyjs | October 7, 2007 12:18 PM
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The "fundamentalist right" has finally realized how they have been used and that the mainline Repubs. never intended to deliver.
Posted by: joeyjs | October 7, 2007 12:18 PM
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James Dobson and all his ilk should commit mass suicide which would make the US and the world a better place.
Posted by: Kenneth | October 7, 2007 11:57 AM
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Dear Mark -
Good post. How right you are when you write, "So, to the members of the so-called conservative Christians, I say stop complaining. We're in this mess because *you* (not Giuliani, not Hillary, not anyone else) put us here."
The Christians were hot to parade their power in putting gw bush in office and in keeping him there. I think they'd support him if he held a few public executions. They certainly continue to support him as he sends THEIR kids to their deaths in Iraq while somehow keeping his two service-aged daughters safely out of harms way.
Of course, when anything goes horribly, horribly wrong, those same Xians turn around and say "he's not acting like a Xian." But as you point out, he's acting EXACTLY like a Xian.
It's time that Americans abandoned the 1950-ish image they have of Xians as some Norman Rockwell-ish silent majority of benign believers who take the ills that life delivers in their stride, answering with quiet grace and dignity. That image of "people acting like Xians" was the exception, not the norm.
Today's Xians - especially the American fundamentalist type - are simply reverting to the form that powered the Inquisition and the Crusades. They are hell-bent on returning us to a New Dark Ages where science and the intellect are under constant assault, where belief in fantasy is exalted as "faith in things unseen" and differences between peoples/faiths are things to be wiped out, rather than understood and tolerated.
The words of a Dobson and even a McCain lay bare this frightening reality. It's time for Americans to realize that Xianity is simply going through its last throes - a dying beast howling in pain who with its last breath can hope for nothing more than to take down a few adversaries with its wild thrashings.
Time for the USA to join the rest of the civilized world and abandon the realm of fantasy. Heaven knows there's enough good to be found and enough work to be done in the very real world in which we reside.
Posted by: Mr Mark | October 7, 2007 11:29 AM
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I don't know why the so-called religious right are upset: They got exactly what they asked for in W's presidency: a religious ideologue who starts with a pre-determined answer and then cherry-picks fact and truth to justify it. America's religious extremists' discontent with the Republican field should be self-directed; it is due to the inherent failures of pontificating from public office in a democracy.
Spouting religious ideology from the halls of government work just fine in Saudi Arabia and Iran. The problem for Dobson (and the other "my-god-can-beat-up-your-god" club, including our current president) is that their ideology has failed to make better the lives of human beings. It has, in fact, done the opposite, as evidenced by more poverty, less economic security, more health problems, and more dire circumstances in the world's long-term problems (especially national security and climate change).
So, to the members of the so-called conservative Christians, I say stop complaining. We're in this mess because *you* (not Giuliani, not Hillary, not anyone else) put us here.
Posted by: Mark | October 7, 2007 10:31 AM
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Dobson is already out of the game. Religious-political trends are moving away from the hardcore Republican base. The anti-Bush, anti-GOP sea change is so strong now as to amount to a tsunami, and the only role religion can play is to help conservatives to pray that all their goals won't be washed away for the foreseeable future. Here's why:
1. The majority of voters are getting a little worn out with the sanctimony and aggressiveness of the evangelicals. They are not only holier than thou, they are determined to whip the rest of us into their behavioral line. Americans put up with that only for so long.
2. Democrats are breaking out of their usual response to Republican aggressiveness, which is to cower in the corner and say, Gee, we're so sorry you feel that way. Democrats may not be as drop-dead certain of their faith as the right-wing true believers, but most of them are faithful, decent people who are now reminding us of that.
3. There has for some time been a substantial group of evangelicals who believe that the environment is a sacred trust. Democrats are more congenial to them than the Republicans, who clearly have sold out environmental interests to the business community. If the notion that using war routinely as an instrument of foreign policy is un-Christian takes hold, major fissures in the base will occur. Every single Republican presidential candidate but one maverick is solidly, unapologetically supportive of the Iraq war.
4. To the extent that thrift is a virtue, the Republicans have been spending like drunken sailors without sending the bill to anyone.
The thing that just amazes me is that, at every turn, Republicans cannot resist whipping out their .45 and shooting themselves in the foot once more. They can't even get Larry Craig ("the gift that keeps on giving") to step down, and nobody would care about that peccadillo anymore if it weren't just another walking hypocrisy. The presidential candidates and Congressional Republicans have painted themselves into a corner on the war. The debt is huge. Bush denies children health care. Now Dobson is threatening to start a third party, he's just raising the tsunami a foot or two.
The religiously relevant question I have is, Has somebody put some voodoo curse on the Republican Party?
Posted by: Douglas Wilson | October 7, 2007 9:26 AM
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I fail to understand the misleading claim as being "Pro Life" or "Right To Life". This a dishonest designation. These folks should claim to be "Anti-Abortion". If they are actually concerned about the sanctity of life, then they should also be against capital punishment and the involvement in adventurous wars of choice. Many of these "Pro Life" believers are gung-ho for the Iraq mess, with all the loss of young lives there.
Posted by: Ralph | October 6, 2007 4:46 PM
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Dear Ki-Jana -
I'm not going to waste much time on you as the few posts I've read by you leave no doubt that you have drunk the RW cool ade.
As far as the First bombing of the WTC - that attack took place on Feb 26, 1993. Bill Clinton had been POTUS for a grand total of ONE MONTH & 6 DAYS. Using YOUR logic on where to place responsibility for those attacks, the responsibility MUST rest squarely on the shoulders of GHW Bush, wouldn't you say? Or are you saying that attacks that took place a month after Clinton took office AND attacks that took place 8.5 months after he left office are both his fault? Surely, if Clinton didn't do enough to stop 9/11, then GHW bush must be blamed for 2/26/93? Or, if GHW Bush is off the hook because he was out of office on 2/26/93, then I would guess Bill is off the hook for 9/11 for the same reason.
Which do you prefer?
Now, let's see. What happened to the perps who did the first WTC bombing? Gee, they're all IN JAIL, including the guy who was the mastermind behind it! And what happened to the mastermind of 9/11? Yep, we all know - according to Doofus bush, he's no longer an issue, "I don't think about him much."
A far as, "Maybe if the U.S. hadn't let Al Queda walk into Adghanistan and set up shop so easily, perhaps some of this could have been avoided." Do you not know that RONALD REAGAN armed, trained and paid for what became al Queda? He held their hands and walked them into Afghanistan against the USSR. Maybe you forgot about the little WH photo op with the soon-to-be-al-Queda types that REAGAN called "the equivalent of our Founding Fathers."
Re: the minimum wage figures. Typical RW spin - it's a bunch of kids, it's a bunch of soccer moms, etc, etc. Yes, they don't deserve to make a decent wage because they're not 1. male, 2. white, 3. Republics. We get it, Ki-Jana.
I'm done with you.
I hope you enjoy having Hillary as president for the next 8 years. Likewise having the Rs in the minority for, well, maybe forever. If not, get used to it.
Let's hear it for Larry Craig!!
Posted by: Mr Mark | October 6, 2007 3:16 PM
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Dr. R.P.,
Of course we Christians pray you nonbelievers will find the Truth that Christ Jesus died on the cross to save you from your sins. As a nonbeliever you risk incurring the wrath of God when you die. That is your choice and God will decide your fate. Since only God knows what is in our hearts, no man can decide your ultimate fate. However, you should keep your blasphemous thoughts to yourself for it is a great sin to deny the Lord and it should not be allowed. As I said, the first amendment was only intended to protect Christians. Likewise, teachers should not be allowed to teach the satanic lies of Darwinism in public schools.
Gary Roth, if you are a "pastor" then you should know that God wrote in the Bible through Paul that justification is by faith alone:
Romans 1:17-18: "Therefore the just shall live by faith. The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness."
Galatians 2:16: "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
You say you are a "pastor" Mr. Roth but I know that there are many churches out there that don't teach the Truth that the Bible is the innerant Word of God. From your writing I suspect that you may be one of those apostate pastors. If so, you are not going to Heaven.
Posted by: Matthew | October 6, 2007 2:43 PM
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David,
I'm probably wrong here, but I'm trying to think outside the box. Maybe what Dobson and/or McCain is referencing what they talk about the nation being founded on biblical principles, are the early settlers. For example, the Mayflower. If memory serves, a good number of northern and mid-atlantic states were started as societies based upon various types of christianity. Protestants in one state. Catholics in another (i.e., Maryland). It was Pennsylvania who finally integrated the state and allowed people of all faiths to live within its borders. Hence the term, "City of Brotherly Love".
Like I said, it's just a guess, but it might help explain their thinking.
Posted by: Ki-Jana | October 6, 2007 2:43 PM
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Gary Roth:
Good for you. I wish your words had wider publication than this posting. Washington Post should be recording your words on their page, not Dobson's. I go crazy every time I hear someone (and now even John McCain!) talking about this nation as founded on "Bible-believing Christian" principles. If only the Enlightenment could return to some leaders in Washington, and if only they would disregard the rants of the hateful ranks including Dobson. Our nation deserves better.
Posted by: David | October 6, 2007 2:30 PM
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JOZEVZ:
You really need to get your meds adjusted. The last time I saw such psychotic drivel was from a friends mother whose insane writing we described as the 'lithium letters'. And she made more sense than you!
Posted by: numi | October 6, 2007 2:24 PM
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Screw Dobson and his phony pseudo xtians! He and the rest of them will be relegated to the backside of history where they belong! They have perverted the Christian Way and will answer, some day, for it.
Posted by: Raoul | October 6, 2007 2:07 PM
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MATTHEW, you did not answer my question. In the country you wish the US to be, what do you feel is an acceptable way to treat unbelievers?
Posted by: Dr.R.P. | October 6, 2007 1:55 PM
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Michele,
Could you tell me what problems you have with Blackwater?
And I'm assuming you're knowledge about the children's health care bill (SCHIP) is limited to the name of the bill only. Here are some thoughts . . . .
1) Over 2,000,000 children have been added to the SCHIP roles since President Bush took office.
2) The 2008 budget increases SCHIP funding by 20% over five years.
3) Based on their own projections, Minnesota, Illinois, New Jersey, Michigan, Rhode Island, and New Mexico will spend more SCHIP funds on ADULTS than they will on the INTENDED RECIPIENTS: CHILDREN.
4) The SCHIP bill, as approved by Senora Pelosi, would allow coverage for families at THREE TIMES the federal poverty level, or $62,000 a year. In some cases, the plan would provide coverage for households with income levels of $83,000 a year. Hello?
5) Under the SCHIP bill, as approved by Senora Pelosi, ONE out of every THREE children who moves onto government coverage would drop private insurance. That's right. Step right up and pay higher taxes!!
Posted by: Ki-Jana | October 6, 2007 1:24 PM
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Humankind has evolved over eons of time to become the only form of life capable of using the power the brain to control the quality of its existence, and enhance its adaptation to to the demanding reality of survival. In its pursuit to achieve the fruits of happiness and contentment, it invented mechanisms of belief antagonistic to reason. Early primitive peoples, unable to answer the great mysteries of the hostile world that challenged existence itself,and with little tested knowledge to guide them, invented supernatural creatures larger than themselves. Allegedly possessed of extraordinary powers, they believed such imagined figures were gods possessed of many outsized human frailities. They cloaked these all powerful givers of life, death, fire, water, the seasons, fertility and sustenance with myths and superstitions that quenched their thirst for unknowable answers. Fear demanded fealty. The substitution of faith and superstition for logic and reason has, since the first human walked upright, contributed little to the actual improvement of human life itself. As time progressed, man became a social animal; first in small groups or bands, then tribes and ultimately in large numbers sharing identifiable characteristics. The old myths and tales were perpetuated by first impressions on succeeding generations. It is incredulous to reason, that so many intelligent, even learned people, in this age of exponential discovery, continue to reject so much of proven science. Inexplicably, they continue to cling with unyielding tenacity to the unreasoned beliefs of primitive, undeveloped almost illiterate thought. Religion is an endorsement of superstition, myth and the rejection of reason. It demands faith without facts and compliance with irrational ritual. It is no more valid than effects from the pseudo-scientific alignment of planets we call astrology. In our perilous world, with many dangers arising directly from religious and ideological irrationality and conflict; with death and suffering unabated in the name of God; with many hungry and in need of basic sustenance, with education and enlightenment the only beacon of hope, my vote for leadership goes to the men and women of the mind - those intellectually capable of choosing reason,logic, science and the morality of good acts over blind obediance to faith without proof. Remnants of an antideluvian age are best left to philosophical anthropology - not modern enlightened governance.
Posted by: The Metaphysicist | October 6, 2007 1:21 PM
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Humankind has evolved over eons of time to become the only form of life capable of using the power the brain to control the quality of its existence, and enhance its adaptation to to the demanding reality of survival. In its pursuit to achieve the fruits of happiness and contentment, it invented mechanisms of belief antagonistic to reason. Early primitive peoples, unable to answer the great mysteries of the hostile world that challenged existence itself,and with little tested knowledge to guide them, invented supernatural creatures larger than themselves. Allegedly possessed of extraordinary powers, they believed such imagined figures were gods possessed of many outsized human frailities. They cloaked these all powerful givers of life, death, fire, water, the seasons, fertility and sustenance with myths and superstitions that quenched their thirst for unknowable answers. Fear demanded fealty. The substitution of faith and superstition for logic and reason has, since the first human walked upright, contributed little to the actual improvement of human life itself. As time progressed, man became a social animal; first in small groups or bands, then tribes and ultimately in large numbers sharing identifiable characteristics. The old myths and tales were perpetuated by first impressions on succeeding generations. It is incredulous to reason, that so many intelligent, even learned people, in this age of exponential discovery, continue to reject so much of proven science. Inexplicably, they continue to cling with unyielding tenacity to the unreasoned beliefs of primitive, undeveloped almost illiterate thought. Religion is an endorsement of superstition, myth and the rejection of reason. It demands faith without facts and compliance with irrational ritual. It is no more valid than effects from the pseudo-scientific alignment of planets we call astrology. In our perilous world, with many dangers arising directly from religious and ideological irrationality and conflict; with death and suffering unabated in the name of God; with many hungry and in need of basic sustenance, with education and enlightenment the only beacon of hope, my vote for leadership goes to the men and women of the mind - those intellectually capable of choosing reason,logic, science and the morality of good acts over blind obediance to faith without proof. Remnants of an antideluvian age are best left to philosophical anthropology - not modern enlightened governance.
Posted by: The Metaphysicist | October 6, 2007 1:21 PM
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James Dobson is a fool! Remember he raised a big ruckus about Sponge Bob being gay....and he has a big connection to Blackwater. Pro-life my #!*!
It will be so nice when these fools are no longer worth writing about and sanity and good, inclusive, democratic christianity is restored on a daily basis.
When was the last time a right-wing religious neo-con did anything socially just? I seem to remember a veto coming up on children's health care. What is the deficit again?
Posted by: Michele | October 6, 2007 1:05 PM
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James Dobson is a fool! Remember he raised a big ruckus about Sponge Bob being gay....and he has a big connection to Blackwater. Pro-life my ass!
It will be so nice when these fools are no longer worth writing about and sanity and good, inclusive, democratic christianity is restored on a daily basis.
When was the last time a right-wing religious neo-con did anything socially just? I seem to remember a veto coming up on children's health care. What is the deficit again?
Posted by: Michele | October 6, 2007 1:03 PM
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Mr. Mark,
Thank you for your response. I would add that I have read a number of your posts on various "On Faith" topics and, while I fundamentally disagree with a majority of your opinions, I still respect the fact that you seem like an educated, intelligent person. However. . .
You fail miserably in regards to the minimum wage issue. Granted, your position is most likely the result of being spoon fed from the likes of Senora Pelosi and the fact you have no vested interest in the subject matter. Either way, the number you quote is completely bogus.
First, a little less than half the states in the union already had a minimum (or living) wage that was higher than the federal wage. And the top 8 states employing minimum wage workers were in those 20+ states.
Second, your number is drastically over-inflated with high school & college students, part-time mothers working while their kids are in school, and other individuals who are making the minimum wage at something other than their primary employment.
As far as 9/11 is concerned, I'm sad to see that you have completely disregarded the lives of those lost due to terrorist attacks on the U.S.S. Cole, the first World Trade Center bombing, and the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. Did I miss the alert that Al Queda formed itself during Bush's first inauguration? Maybe if the U.S. hadn't let Al Queda walk into Adghanistan and set up shop so easily, perhaps some of this could have been avoided. But then again, we were too busy selling military secrets to the Chinese to get worked up over Osama.
Posted by: Ki-Jana | October 6, 2007 12:23 PM
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Matthew, as one of the responders has pointed out, the "founding fathers" were not what anyone today would recognize as Christian, let alone "Bible-believing." The matter of innerancy was not an issue at the time, and many came from traditions that do not hold for biblical innerancy. Neither did the founding fathers. Most were deists, products of the enlightenment, who believed in God and, like Jefferson, for instance, thought the Bible had important things to say about ethics, but did not believe in miracles or even in the resurrection. I have a copy of the Jefferson Bible, from which he expunged all miracles, the resurrection and anything else he considered not "reasonable."
Furthermore, your theology is faulty. The Bible nowhere says that only Christians receive the grace of God. In fact, it says that his rain falls on the just and the unjust, and Paul says that it was while we were sinners that Christ died for us; and elsewhere he says that Christ died for the ungodly. There is a lot more that could be said about this - maybe find yourself a good book on biblical theology, and a pastor that has a little education, and do some Bible study with him/her.
As for Dobson - as a pastor I have had to deal with him for years. He's a horrible theologian who misrepresents Christianity. As a trained psychologist, I can say that his practice of counseling is no better. He must have gotten his degree out fo a Cracker Jack box. I don't know how many of my parishioners have come to me, after listening to him and his cronies, and had to have help. Unfortunately, some of them are so tied into his political stances that they follow him rather than sound psychological counsel.
My take on this "council" that includes the old right guard, is that they see themselves losing influence, both politically and within the evangelical community. Furthermore, they have lost a couple of important spokesmen recently, so their statement represents a retrenchment, aimed mostly at the faithful. They are speaking to the gallery, assuring them that they have not left their principles.
As for its effect on the party - in truth, the evangelicals have always merely been used by the party. After almost eight years of Republican domination, the evangelicals have nothing to show for it. The party, while giving them lip service, has never taken their concerns seriously. But Dobson et all have been so enamoured by the illusion of power, that they continue to support them. Give them a pen with the presidential seal on it, and they'll sell their souls.
I don't have great hopes for the Democrats. Look at their current response to the war, and the platforms of their candidates, and they look almost like Bushies. Given enough of a majority, they may ctually do something about health care and a few other pressing problems, but none of them has the courage to stand up and say, "What we did was wrong. We apologize for Iraq, and we will work with others to correct what we did." Neither do they have the courage to become honest brokers of peace in the rest of the Middle East. So far, I'm pretty disappointed in them.
Posted by: Gary Roth | October 6, 2007 12:17 PM
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Matthew,
I'm happy to know you can read the founding fathers' minds, especially when what you say they meant is at odds with so much of what they wrote, as many in this discussion have already pointed out. I suppose the development of such astonishing mental powers is possible when one frees up all those brain cells, ordinarily made busy by the activity ordinarily described as "thinking", by becoming a biblical literalist.
Posted by: Jaybob | October 6, 2007 12:06 PM
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RE: The opinion expressed by Ovid (Oct 5, 2007, 2:21 PM), "Was our nation founded by Christians? Absolutely." forgets the Enlightenment and Deism. If any guiding philosophy may be called the sole foundation for our Constitution and Nation, it is Deism, not Christianity. The two are remarkably unalike! With the Evangelicals I do agree that this Country needs a return to our founding principles, which, unfortunately for the Evangelicals, relegates their religious demands and tests out of the government.
Posted by: PaulProcyon | October 6, 2007 11:57 AM
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Dobson reminds me of that old Bibical saying,
"even the devil can quote the scripture"
Posted by: Ron Bitonti | October 6, 2007 11:45 AM
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Dobson reminds me of that old Bibical saying,
"even the devil can quote the scripture"
Posted by: Ron Bitonti | October 6, 2007 11:44 AM
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Dobson reminds me of that old Bibical saying,
"even the devil can quote the scripture"
Posted by: Ron Bitonti | October 6, 2007 11:44 AM
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Stuart, Dr. R.P. and Anonymous,
To respond to your questions, we must always remember at all times that the Bible, and only the Bible, is the soure of Truth. It is the inerrant Word of God. Therefore, in the Bible we find the commandments that God directs us to live our lives. We must be obedient to the Lord.
The founding fathers of this country understood that their ancestors came here to freely express their religious views as Bible-believing Christians. They themselves were Bible-believing Christians. They were not athiest, nor agnostic, nor pagan, nor Mormon, nor Jehovah's Witness, not Islam, nor Catholic. They were Christian. Period.
The first amendment needs to be seen in this light. When people say "freedom of religion" they forget what the founding fathers had in mind. As Bible-believing Chrsitians, they wanted their fellow Christians to have complete freedom to worship God and to study the Bible as the inerrant word of God. So, the first amendment only applies to Christians. Only Christians, through faith alone receive the grace of God.
Posted by: Matthew | October 6, 2007 11:33 AM
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Quiz for Ki-Jana:
Q. What does every US president EXCEPT GW BUSH have in common?
A. 9/11 DIDN'T HAPPEN ON THEIR WATCH.
Posted by: MR Mark | October 6, 2007 11:26 AM
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The term "Christing-up" to describe McCain's "right surge" is a brilliant term/phrase that must find its way into the lexicon of important concepts for the 21st century. I’ll be doing my part to see that the term/concept/phrase/verb "Christing-Up" is frequently employed into daily conversations describing the rantings of the fawning and the faux Christian Right devotees.
T
Posted by: TL | October 6, 2007 11:25 AM
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KI-JANA writes:
"There's a reason they call the Democratic party the "party of no ideas."
What's worse, a party of no ideas, or a party of BAD ideas, like the Republics?
Yes, the Republics have a plan. Unfortunately for the USA and the world, it's the same plan Thelma and Louise had, ie: hold hands and drive full speed off the cliff.
How terrible of the Democrats to raise the minimum wage! It would be so much better for that money to go to Halliburton.
"I can probably count on one hand the number of people that were blessed by that legislation."
Not unless you have 7,300,000 fingers on that one hand.
Here's a tip for you: STOP GETTING YOUR INFORMATION FROM RUSH "THE DRUG ADDICT" LIMPBALLS!!
Idiot.
Posted by: Mr Mark | October 6, 2007 11:17 AM
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Dobson and Co have always been given more importance than their numbers warrant, because the GOP has always viewed the conservative evangelical Christian voter as the marginal difference between victory and defeat in many states.
I think it's safe to say that if Giuliani wins the nomination, there will be a drop of support among conservative evangelical Christians on election day for the GOP ticket. That drop might be around 2-5% or even as high as 10%. That would be enough for the GOP to be uncompetitive in states like Ohio, Iowa and Florida and place states like Colorado and Arizona into closer competition. Essentially, it would mean that the election would play out on GOP turf, as the Democrats will have little trouble defending the states that Gore and Kerry both won in 2000/04.
Posted by: Khyber Jones | October 6, 2007 11:10 AM
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Dobson is a bully and needs to shutup and sit down or go back somewhere, anywhere. He is a most divisive force instead of a unitfying one and because of people like him, you can now see how destructive evangelicals can be when they supplant and pervert God's truths for their own purposes. Evangelicals are not guaranteed more access or influence in politics than anyone else. Christians are given more influence only through Christ and these people appear as far from Christ as any other sinner I have seen. They are rude, vulgar, braggarts, unloving, determined to have their own way, willing to do harm to others and hypocritical in they are unwilling or unable to see their own flaws. Sounds like they need help to me as much as the people they revile.
Posted by: Avorrio | October 6, 2007 11:07 AM
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A.L.
I appreciate your optimism, but let's try and focus on the real world, eh? There's a reason they call the Democratic party the "party of no ideas." Lest I remind you that the high point for the last Congressional session was the Democrat's passing of a higher minimum wage. Hoo-rah. I can probably count on one hand the number of people that were blessed by that legislation.
Posted by: Ki-Jana | October 6, 2007 11:00 AM
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James Dobson is a fool! Remember he raised a big ruckus about Sponge Bob being gay....and he has a big connection to Blackwater. Pro-life my ass!
It will be so nice when these fools are no longer worth writing about and sanity and good, inclusive, democratic christianity is restored on a daily basis.
When was the last time a right-wing religious neo-con did anything socially just? I seem to remember a veto coming up on children's health care. What is the deficit again?
Posted by: Michele | October 6, 2007 10:58 AM
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I quite honestly believe that the influence of white evangelical voters is overrated. Why? Look. In 2004, there were a great many centrist voter blocs who gave into their fears about another terrorist attack. Latinos, single women, even African-Americans fell under the sway of a GOP "fear-and-smear" tactic. That fear combined with a pre-election Osama Bin Laden video was enough to force a once-in-a-lifetime coming together of disparate voting blocs to give George W. Bush just enough wind to get past John Kerry who actually got more democratic votes than any modern President. And, voter participation in 2004 exceeded all expectations.
To be sure, evangelicals came out in greater numbers than ever before, motivated largely by the possibility that the Supreme Court was bound to have openings in the next Presidential term that could have profound impacts on their movement. None of that passion is evident in the present campaign. And, there is growing evidence that there has been a profound shift in the sentiments of those voting blocs that supported Bush in 2004. The Latinos, single women and African-Americans are coming home to the democratic party. These shifts seem to be impervious to any of the arguments the present batch of GOP Presidential contenders are offering.
Thus, I don't really see whiote evangelicals making up the difference in the coming election even if they are motivated enmasse to participate. It is highly doubtful we will see a similar once-in-a-lifetime drift of these voting blocs again, particularly in light of the huge Bush-GOP failures. And make no mistake about it: The GOP still has Bush written all over it.
Posted by: Gary Jackson | October 6, 2007 10:57 AM
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I find it really strange that while GOD gave man free will to accept or reject righteousness, the religious zealots want to mandate righteousness by law. What value does righteousness have if it is mandated by law as it was in the Old Testament? Mandated righteousness is not a path to salvation. Laws are only an indicator that one can be obediant. But it is not an indication of what is in one's heart. That is why God gave us the New Testament which did away with laws as a path to salvation. Yet, Dobson and his ilk carry on as if Jesus never lived.
Dobson and his ilk carry on as if Jesus never gave the Sermon on the Mount where he gave us the Beatidudes as a model for how we should be. I would like to remind Rev. Dobson that Jesus told us, ‘Blessed are the peacemakers, for THEY shall be called the children of God.' He never said, blessed are the warmongers. And certainly Dobson and his ilk would have to admit that bush and cheney are warmongers. Please do us all a favor and read the Beatitudes. It is "the" model of how we should be and I'm sorry to say that your side just doesn't get it. They carry on as if Jesus never admonished us to give unto Caesar (the government) what belongs to Caesar and to give unto God what belongs to God. And lastly, they carry on as if Jesus never said that man cannot serve both God and mammon. Yet, Dobson and his ilk, by inserting themselves in governance (worldliness), are trying to serve both.
My point is that Rev. Dobson and his ilk should not insert themselves into politics because that is not God’s business. God’s business is salvation. And salvation is a personal choice that cannot be mandated by law. If Jesus returned today, Dobson and his ilk would surely revile him as a dirty, liberal hippy.
Posted by: JAM754 | October 6, 2007 10:52 AM
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This is a very good article. I observed several people on television last week talking about the deflection of White Evangelicals if Rudy Giuliani is the Republican nominee next year.
I am a registered Independent, and I try to consistently vote for who I observe as the best person for the job... This is the first time in years - since the Goldwater era - that I have seen a complete party go down the in the toilet the way the Republicans have...
You and your counter-parts are in the studios and board rooms meeting and writing these very interesting pieces for us to read and analyze, but try standing in the Safeway lines, churches, school football games, parks, offices, etc., and you will get a realistic feel on just how turned off the faithful Republicans are now.
Finally, for years I have lived across the street from a "Limbaugh" true believer. We used to share endless political and sports conversations... Now he seems totally turned off by the Republicans.. He just can't believe the total self-destruction.
I see the Democrats in office for at least 16 years and maybe longer because they will immediately and effectively address these critical American issues:
1. Middle East Situation (not just Iraq / Iran). That whole area is a political mess and the worse thing the current admininistration could have done was place an inexperienced person like Sec. Rice in the midst of a male dominated society.
To quote Donald Trump: "What has she done?"
2. The Economy: The Democrats will re-visit the NAFTA agreement and start to focus of jobs for Americans at a decent wage again... The current administration likes to boast of the jobs created dring their time in office, but they fail to mention that the wages are no equal to those of the 90's. Bring jobs home will be a winner across the board.
3. Health care for all: Universal health care is now almost globally acceptable.. Why are we always last? The timing is right and we will have it soon after a Democrat Admin take over.
4. Immigration: A very sensitive issue, but somebody has to have the guts to step up and say people are breaking the law by coming here illegally and ignoring our laws. The few votes they think they will lose will probably be picked up by members of other parties who will applaud them for seeking a realistic resolution for this problem... This is another of those (Meet me in the super market) issuess.. Very hot!!
5. And finally, I sense that Americans are tired of administrations that seek to divide us among racial and social-economic lines. It's time we truly embrace our diversity and show the world how to make it work...
The recent events in Jena and other places truly do not reflect (the real) America, but that is how the rest of world is seeing us now...
Well Sir - that was a great article, and as you can see it provoked me to take a few moments to reflect on your words and the sad state of our great country.
I will look for your writings again...
Kind Personal Regards
A~
Posted by: A. L. Jones | October 6, 2007 10:48 AM
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James Dobson and his gang are those who brought you the current administration - voters who ignored intelligence, honesty, and ability to perform the duties of the office, and chose for a candidate based on his support for the sanctity of human life (**not including Iraqis, Afghans, criminals, immigrants, gays, and US soldiers).
Dobson has a right to believe what he wants. But haven't we had enough of narrow-minded, ignorant blowhards like him getting involved in politics? Churches should either be barred from supporting political candidates, or should lose their tax-exempt status.
Posted by: Tom | October 6, 2007 10:29 AM
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What if the Evangelicals get together with the Independents--couldn't that be just enough to throw another election into chaos?
Posted by: aharden | October 6, 2007 10:14 AM
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I blame the press like the Washington Post for helping create these power-hungry, conflict-sowing, egotistical, money-grubbing, hypocritical, bible-thumping MONSTERS like Dobson. Dobson is a NOTHING in himself -- an ugly, self-loathing, wretched little man using the bully pulpit handed to him by all this press coverage to try to exorcise his own obvious demons. I can't believe anyone takes this goon seriously. He's a total nutjob. A hate-filled nutjob, full of hatred for himself and the rest of the world, hiding behind religion and using it to empower himself at everyone else's expense. He's probably envious of Osama bin Laden. What a society we live in, when the idiotic blitherings of a blind fool like this are taken seriously.
Posted by: katandmoon | October 6, 2007 10:09 AM
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I've always wondered why these people just don't go find an island somewhere where they can easily set up the theocratic state they so desire without interference from any government or public resistance. It seems like it would be much easier than having to deal with the political process.
Posted by: storm72 | October 6, 2007 9:55 AM
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I've always wondered why these people just don't go find an island somewhere where they can easily set up the theocratic state they so desire without interference from any government or public resistance. It seems like it would be much easier than having to deal with the political process.
Posted by: storm72 | October 6, 2007 9:54 AM
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It will be refreshing to restore America to the once believed in law separation of church and state. The zealots on the right have helped to destroy America's standing in the world. Bush and his religious fanatics use their religious beliefs to justify spreading democracy to countries around the world. To use some of their lingo, God help us all!
Posted by: Jean M. | October 6, 2007 9:51 AM
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Dr. Dobson made his reputation by telling parents how to control their kids in a permissive and dangerous world. Now that he's reached something like retirement age, I don't see that he's succeeding at promoting politicians who might have been raised by the Dobson method. Some of his difficulties may simply be due to scandals involving religious conservatives.
My own guess is that the religious right might end up divided over the acceptability of Mitt Romney as a candidate.
Posted by: David Martin | October 6, 2007 9:44 AM
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As a conservative Christian I agree somewhat with Dobson's concerns about supporting someone who is pro-abortion. That said, if Hillary is elected over a pro-abortion GOP candidate we know which way the Supreme Court will go- HARD LEFT! If Giuliani will vow to appoint justices in the mole of Scalia, Alito, Roberts & the like then I could vote for him (against Hillary). However, I will be voting for another candidate in the GOP primaries...(Huckabee, Thompson or Tancredo)
Posted by: Dennis | October 6, 2007 9:41 AM
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The problem with Mr. Dobson's argument is that only one issue is relevant. The bible does not take lightly to killing innocent men, women and children who are fully alive as in Iraq. He does not take into account the loss of billion (no trillions) of dollars that could have been spent on schools, health, cleaning of the environment as well as the actions of those killed in battle for WHAT? There was no reason to go to war in Iraq!
If there is a view point to be made, it is that his view point is so narrow that those who follow his thinking are less then religiously astute thinkers.
Posted by: jerry rubin | October 6, 2007 9:36 AM
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May God bless and keep you forever if your observations in the last paragraph come true.
Posted by: Peggy Metzler | October 6, 2007 9:20 AM
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This artilce clearly demonstrates why we need separation of church from state. These right-winged evangelicals are really crazed people, especially their leaders.
Evangelicals are racist, they beleive that all non-fair people are here to fulfill their purposes only. Thy would never admit that their Lord, Jesus Chirst, is described as having skin color of burnt bronze and hair of wool. Because they would not want to worship anything that does not resemble them.
Evangelicals also beleived that lynching was okay with God. If they (evangelicals) thought that if any Black Man harmed their "fair maiden" in any way, then the Black Man, Woman or Child deserved to be strung up and hanged from a noose. I find it appalling that none of the Evangelical leaders came forth to denounce the recent acts of rebirthing the era of lynching. Perhaps these ACTS of works must fine with those evil ass people.
I'd say the we shoot them all to their so-called heaven and let them experience their own rapture in their own cowardly way. Don't they know the cannot rush God!
Posted by: Livid | October 6, 2007 9:16 AM
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How this has anything to do with "faith" is beyond my understanding. Sorry to inform this writer but "faith," as we generally understand the term,has nothing whatsoever to do with the activities, opinions, and maneuvering of Dobson and his political sidekicks masquerading as "Preachers."
The very title "The God Vote" is ridiculous on its surface. This column belongs in the political gossip pages.
Posted by: Mark Deneen | October 6, 2007 9:00 AM
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This country will be better served over the long run if this group - so-called "christian evangelicals" - disappears from the political landscape. Frankly, I have seen far less "christian" behaviour from this group than just about any other. To most I know, they stand for intolerance, an abhorrence of science and issues that could not be less important in terms of what faces our country.
2008 stands to be a watershed political season and I, for one, will be praying that the "evangelicals" see blue....lots, and lots of blue.
Posted by: fountain | October 6, 2007 8:47 AM
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People like Dobson\Falwell, etc. are strictly politicians, not spiritual leaders. They don't know the first think about the Bible and Jesus Christ. Jesus once said to render to Caeser what is Caeser's and to God what is God. These false prophets of a political blent have the audacity to dify God's commandment above. Matthew 7 talks extensively about people as Dobson and Co. On the last day, Christ will ask them to "depart from me, you that work inequity."
Posted by: Flavio Gominho | October 6, 2007 8:36 AM
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As a logical consequence of the "pro-life" criminalization of abortion position, the woman who gets an abortion must be punished. If the fetus is considered life, then she has committed murder. The pro-lifers should be asked about what penalty they see fit for aborting women under an anti-abortion law, they should be hammered to formulate a public opinion on this issue. Then you will see their true hypocrasy in terms of pro-life politics emerge.
Also, most pro-lifers also favor the death penality, but cannot provide a rational or even religious explanation why the life of a criminal can be taken, but an unborn life cannot. They should be forced to explain this discrepancy in their logic.
Posted by: AgentG | October 6, 2007 8:27 AM
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Oh Dear Jesus, let this hateful right-wing nut case split the Republican vote in '08 further crippling the chances of the mainstream gay-hating, neocon Christian extremist candidates that Dobson and his buddies Robertson, Haggard, Vitter and Craig would otherwise support. Amen
Posted by: Roy | October 6, 2007 8:10 AM
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Dobson and his fellow Christian thug leaders are the ones responsible for the demise of the Republican Party. Maybe the leader of the GOP should speak to Christian groups that leaders like Dobson are leading them down the road to Hell.
Posted by: grunk | October 6, 2007 7:56 AM
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Mr. Dobson and his brand of "Christianity" are what is destroying this country. They want their way and if they can't get it, will do their best to destroy anyone or anything that stands in their path.
Religion has no place in politics and that's the way it should be and that's what our founding fathers intended.
Posted by: Steve | October 6, 2007 7:45 AM
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Observations...
Jozvez.....Get help now. Tell your son to call 911...Daddy's sick.
The saddest victim of the religious right is McCain...Stabbed in the back in 2000 in South Carolina yet he still sucks up to these people. Where is the McCain that stared down his captors in Hanoi. At least Falwell and D. James Kennedy have knee-slapping anecdotes to share in Hell about how their minions brought a war hero down.
Dobson and his ilk have always ben about manipulation and fear.
Posted by: pegleg | October 6, 2007 7:44 AM
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Observations...
Jozvez.....Get help now. Tell your son to call 911...Daddy's sick.
The saddest victim of the religious right is McCain...Stabbed in the back in 2000 in South Carolina yet he still sucks up to these people. Where is the McCain that stared down his captors in Hanoi. At least Falwell and D. James Kennedy have knee-slapping anecdotes to share in Hell about how their minions brought a war hero down.
Dobson and his ilk have always ben about manipulation and fear.
Posted by: pegleg | October 6, 2007 7:42 AM
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Observations...
Jozvez.....Get help now. Tell your son to call 911...Daddy's sick.
The saddest victim of the religious right is McCain...Stabbed in the back in 2000 in South Carolina yet he still sucks up to these people. Where is the McCain that stared down his captors in Hanoi. At least Falwell and D. James Kennedy have knee-slapping anecdotes to share in Hell about how their minions brought a war hero down.
Dobson and his ilk have always ben about manipulation and fear.
Posted by: pegleg | October 6, 2007 7:41 AM
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Observations...
Jozvez.....Get help now. Tell your son to call 911...Daddy's sick.
The saddest victim of the religious right is McCain...Stabbed in the back in 2000 in South Carolina yet he still sucks up to these people. Where is the McCain that stared down his captors in Hanoi. At least Falwell and D. James Kennedy have knee-slapping anecdotes to share in Hell about how their minions brought a war hero down.
Dobson and his ilk have always ben about manipulation and fear.
Posted by: pegleg | October 6, 2007 7:41 AM
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Why is it that people like Dobson and Alan Keyes are obsessed with abortion as a crime against God? Reading Exodus 21:22-24 it is clear that causing a women to lose her baby (against her will) is punishable by a fine, but hurting a women is punishable by an equal harm against the violator (eye for an eye), including death. If you read the bible with an open mind it seems clear that God does not consider a fetus to be equal to a person.
Posted by: Rob | October 6, 2007 7:41 AM
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Who needs the white envangelical vote? Just deport them all -- they are illegal. Did you know they are funding a terroirst? Read Exodus 11 and 12.
Posted by: frank burns | October 6, 2007 7:26 AM
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I'm ready for someone to be president who freely admits that he/she never attends church, doesn't care if you and I do or don't, but that it's just not something on which they've ever wanted to invest their time and money. Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris et al are correct when they write that religious traditions that date back to ancient times are no more relevant now to life and politics than leeches are to contemporary medicine or carrier pigeons to communications.
Posted by: Jeff | October 6, 2007 7:17 AM
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If the Republican party was serious about Christian issues, they would have done something about them in the past years when they were in total control of the White House and Congress. Instead, they have intentionally done nothing because it is a cheap and easy stick to hit the Democrats with each election. Seriously, the Republican party knows that without these divisive issues they would lose a great number of moderate voters that support them only because of their "Pro Life" stance. You may say I am cynical, but who cynical do you have to be to champion these issues on the campaign trail and then do nothing because you want to pull them out and use them again in a couple of years?
Posted by: Darren7160 | October 6, 2007 7:07 AM
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How sad that this pathetic man continues to exercise influence in some ignorant corner of American society. The hypocrisy of the Christian right has become so flagrant, only the willfully blind could miss it. The so-called party of family values has three divorced candidates running for the presidential nomination, at least two of whom simply walked away and traded the old wife in for a younger model. The children of one despises his guts. That's the same one who pulled the divorce stunt twice. As did yet another potential candidate (Newt), in an even more brutal way. Newt put the icing on the cake by singing loudly in the condemn-Clinton chorus while himself committing adultery.
The past few weeks have seen one Republican after another revealed as a sex pervert, of which Sen. Craig is but the most egregious example. I can go on and on--Abramoff, DeLay, Reed (remember him?)--and on and on.
But the conclusion is clear. The Republican Party--and James Dobson--have about as much to do with true Christianity as Richard Dawkins. The only difference being, Dawkins is not a flaming hypocrite. If James Dobson is an example of leading a Christian life, I'm the Easter Bunny.
Posted by: GeorgiaSon | October 6, 2007 7:05 AM
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As a born again Christian James Dobson scares me. His children aren't right which leads me to believe his doctrine is really flawed which leads me to discount everything he says. I cannot eat the meat and spit out the bones with James Dobson. I have to reject EVERYTHING he says, good or bad.
Whats wrong with todays world is EVERYONE needs SOMEONE to tell them what and how to think. The Republicans need the Limbaughs and Hannitys and Coulters. The Democrats need their consciences which is depraved as much as the consciences of the Limbaughs and Hannitys and Coulters. Proof? Iraq. Proof? Abortion. Get your house in order America. Your end is near and judgement is RIGHT AT THE DOOR. Read the Gospel of John and ASK God, "If you are real SHOW ME!" And He will.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 6, 2007 6:07 AM
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RELIGION POISONS EVERYTHING IT TOUCHES!!
Posted by: WILLEM | October 6, 2007 5:54 AM
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Maybe if enough white evangelicals lose their jobs, continue to have stagnant wages and their children have no health insurance they will realize that voting on the abortion issue alone is a huge mistake for our country. Hopefully they have learned from the past 6 years that just because someone claims to have high moral family values, it does not make it so. God loves all of his children and recently Bush and his Republican backers have shown that they only love the children when it is convenient and free.
Posted by: tiredofit | October 6, 2007 5:41 AM
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Let Dobson pick up his toys and storm out of the room, like the emotionally disturbed six year-old that he is. The fact is, Evangelicals didn't win the last two elections for Mr. Bush. Independents did. Independents are the ones who threw the Republicans out of Congress last year, and they're the ones who're going to throw the Republicans out of the White House next year.
The fact is, 3 out of 4 Americans want abortion kept legal in some or all cases. The fact is, a majority of Americans want legal recognition of same-sex unions. The fact is, a majority of Americans want expanded federal funding of stem cell research. And on and on and on.
The fact is, "White" Evangelicals are important to no one except "White" Evangelicals.
Posted by: JeffG | October 6, 2007 5:03 AM
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A very plausable analysis. I think that the Fundametalists are finally recognizing that they have been used by the Republican Candidates and their own "Fire Breather" leaders for 20+ years without result. Despite holding the White House, Congress, most of the Governerships and legislatures for several terms, plus the majority of Federal Judges and the Supreme Court, they have made few inroads on abortion or any other cause central to their cause. They are handy at bringing out their members like sheep on election day, but conveniently put off when it comes to changing policy in their interest. Homophobia is even losing it's luster as a uniting principle.
All of the likely Republican candidates are hopelessly flawed on the "Family Values" front--Dobson is right, there. At the same time likely Democratic candidates stay married, have histories as church goers and take seriously Mainstream Protestant ethics with regard to the poor. They also respect human rights, the Constitution, open government, and competent administration, civil rights, the rights of the individual against Government intrusion, etc.
The Republican Party is increasingly a regional party of the Fundamentalist Deep South with Western Libertarian Republicans and North Eastern and Midwestern Traditional Republicans increasingly alienated or simply voted out of office. Many more are likly to go in the next election round. With a President who expects Congressmen and Senators to walk in "lock-step" off a cliff to defend his veto of Children's Health, who can expect anything less?
Posted by: Rev. Paul | October 6, 2007 4:50 AM
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james dobson,i never met a more unholy,ungodly,non-christian,dictatorial person in my life.he rules by fear.the words that come out of his mouth have nothing to do with christ.he is a selfish,egotistical human being.
Posted by: bob johnson | October 6, 2007 4:17 AM
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Jesus would have refused to become president, just as he refused to be made king.
By the way, it seems to me that the Church has often been much stronger when it does not have the "political clout" that many today seek.
Posted by: Donald Petersen | October 6, 2007 4:11 AM
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Yes, a return to an oblivion where they belong and can do no more harm.
Posted by: Alexander Mac Donald | October 6, 2007 4:01 AM
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Yes, a return to an oblivion where they belong and can do no more harm.
Posted by: Alexander Mac Donald | October 6, 2007 4:01 AM
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Yes, a return to an oblivion where they belong and can do no more harm.
Posted by: Alexander Mac Donald | October 6, 2007 4:00 AM
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63 million voters put Bush in for a 2nd term in 2004. Is dobson that powerful that he can direct the voting of say 25 million voters just by saying it to his flock. I am not sure dobson's congregation is that homogeneous. And there are 23 million catholics. Do you think the 2006 midterm is more reflective of the electorate. That massive failures of rightwing government can turn the head of even the most conservative evangelical?
Posted by: mickster | October 6, 2007 3:14 AM
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Dobson and his ilk have taken a once proud and good party and made it into a right wing nut house. Moderates like my family have been left out of the party's decision making process for years and any discussion of alternatives to their draconian tactics and policies are never considered. Who cares who sleeps with whom and it should be a decision between a doctor and his/her patient what to do about a pregnancy that never should have happened or has no chance to a normal life. Stay out of my bedroom and let me make decisions about my own personal life. Go back to being fiscal conservative, care for those that are sick and hurt and who knows, they may again be a majority some day. For now they will have to do without my vote and that certainly will continue until the likes of Dobson keep their mouth shut except on Sunday to preach.
Posted by: Opa2 | October 6, 2007 2:59 AM
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Dobson and his ilk have taken a once proud and good party and made it into a right wing nut house. Moderates like my family have been left out of the party's decision making process for years and any discussion of alternatives to their draconian tactics and policies are never considered. Who cares who sleeps with whom and it should be a decision between a doctor and his/her patient what to do about a pregnancy that never should have happened or has no chance to a normal life. Stay out of my bedroom and let me make decisions about my own personal life. Go back to being fiscal conservative, care for those that are sick and hurt and who knows, they may again be a majority some day. For now they will have to do without my vote and that certainly will continue until the likes of Dobson keep their mouth shut except on Sunday to preach.
Posted by: Opa2 | October 6, 2007 2:59 AM
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James Dobson stopped being a christian long, long ago... He is nothing more than a political hack, who sees his time in the spotlight slowly drawing to a close.
Posted by: Joe | October 6, 2007 1:53 AM
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I wish we had the same president and senators as we did in 1790 when they signed and approved the Treaty of Tripoli and wrote...
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"
I, too, am disturbed at the religious-nature politics have become. Most of the rightwing I hear derides states like Saudi Arabia... all the while wanting the U.S. to be a bastion of religious fundamentalism ... ironically, just like the coutries they criticise. When Bush ends a speech with "God Bless America"... I can hear the terrorists saying "Allahu Akbar".
-Tim
Posted by: Tim | October 6, 2007 1:25 AM
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I read the Wash Post just about every day and wonder is it necessary for Mr. Berlinerblau to use the term "Christing-up" to describe a candidate who is expressing more allegiance to Christian values and certain of that church's members? I think there is a gentler way to express that without making it sound so deregotary to the One called Christ. Thank you for consideration of this.
Posted by: Steve | October 6, 2007 12:20 AM
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If there are any real Christians out there, you will remember the words of the Great Teacher who said "By their fruits you shall know them"
Blackwater is a manifestation that can only be nurtured by our tax dollars. This is a fruit grown by the Demon who watered it, your President. Dobson and his supporters helped put this demon in power and by that they have demonstrated the fruit they yeild.
Kelo vs NewLondon is a manifestation of Republican appointments. 11 of the last 13 Supreme Court Justices have been Republican led appointments.
The Kelo decision led to the removal of your right to the property you live on. Rich Corporate Developers (and we all know what political party they belong to) can now force you off of your land, regardless of how long it has been in your family.
This is a very evil fruit and I am sure that a lot of Republicans including Dobson had no idea this little fruit tree was going to pop up in the Garden. How could they?, they have no real spiritual understanding.
A Trillion Dollar war fiasco, a manifestation of pain and hell on your planet. The Great Teacher told you to bring the Kingdom of Heaven with your efforts (as in "Thy Kingdom come Thy Will be done, on EARTH as it is in HEAVEN)
The Republicans took our tax dollars, which are our efforts and they built up nothing that looks like Heaven. This little rotten fruit has sent a stench up into nostrils of Heaven.
The Great Teacher warned that if you are not for him, then you are against him.
Dobson and whoever else you are who have supported these Demons with your votes, which means your support and helped manifest these fruits, should now go into the secret place and explain your actions to the Teacher. I'm betting he's going to say "Away from me, I never knew you."
Better to do it now than face him in front of the Higher Tribunal on the day that's only a motion away, as Paul Simon said in his song "The mother and child reunion is only a motion away."
He might go easy on you if you now work every day for the rest of your life to seek forgiveness for the carnage you have blasted onto a people who never did a thing to you. Maybe move to Iraq and build free houses for the rest of your life, that may get you off the hook. But make no mistake the Higher Tribunal is never evaded. There will be no lawyers to assist you when you face them and the people you have destroyed. Dobson and his supporters are the ones in for a huge awakening.
Posted by: Normanartmasterwork | October 6, 2007 12:16 AM
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It's long past time for Dobson to put up or shut up. If he want's to control political policy and the country let him run for political office and see how many people actually vote for him.
Posted by: ginny | October 6, 2007 12:13 AM
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If the GOP loses even a small percentage of support from the evangelical community, it's over and Hillary is in. GOP can't afford NOT to play to Dobson, et al.
Posted by: Alan | October 5, 2007 11:52 PM
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One thing the Religious Right does not do is bluff. These people are a real rarity in American politics; they actually stand by and for what they believe in. Thus, if they are threatening to bolt the party, they will if Rudy is the nominee. Evangelicals have almost nothing -- nothing -- to show for 30 years of voting Republican. They are trotted out every few years to root for the Republican football team and they are promptly muzzled as soon as the election passes by the powers that be in the GOP. In short, they're being used (in the very same way Black folks get used by the Democrats.) Dobson is a man of courage. I may not agree with much of what he says, but he is one of the few conservatives who says what he means and means what he says. He is to be taken at his word.
Posted by: Steve Slatten | October 5, 2007 11:49 PM
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yea for the dems... maybe this time with a little help fropm the dobson's of the world ALL votes will be cast and counted and we will actually ELECT a president of the USA... what a novelty no one handpicked by the supreme court or by those who were disenfranchised in ohio .. no swift boat ads ( who is unpatriotic now?)
the GOP is a sorry group of people who have no moral compass and no ethical ways ...
january 20 2009 a dy to celebrate the end of the worst presidency in the history of the nation.. strike up the band.. gas up the plane for crawford ....amen
Posted by: susan | October 5, 2007 11:29 PM
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I bet Guiliani has done his research and sees a better chance of beating Clinton running to the center instead of to Dr. Dobson's base. He loses some of that 40% of Bush voters, but not all of them and maybe not even half of them. And he gains quite a few votes from moderates, even Democrats, who don't trust Clinton.
Karl Rove did a phenomenal job getting Bush re-elected with views that were far to the right of the majority of the country. But that won't happen again in our lifetime; GOP presidential candidates simply won't win if they're carrying water for Dr. Dobson and other extremists. The country has changed a lot in 3 years.
Dobson may be misreading his flock here. They don't like Guiliani but they really don't like Hillary Clinton, and they aren't going to buy a Nader-esque argument for trying to fix the GOP by helping her win.
Posted by: Tom B | October 5, 2007 11:17 PM
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It appears the best way to defeat Republicans is let them pass their agenda. I think Democrats should step back and let Republicans privatize SS, eliminate reproductive freedoms for women and launch a few more stupid, useless wars for Israel. It would be kinda like letting an alcoholic hit bottom. Democrats keep trying to mitigate the bad effects of voting Republican and it keeps fooling middle-class voters into thinking Republicans policies won't hurt them.
Posted by: kellamd | October 5, 2007 10:41 PM
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It is the epitome of hypocrisy that the U.S. Dept. of "Justice" & the I.R.S. bullies an Episcopalian Pasadena Anti-War Church for espousing political views while this mindless goose-stepping fascist Dobson is given tax exempt status. Is there a God?
Posted by: Todd Sputnik | October 5, 2007 10:20 PM
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Nothing could better serve our nation or the true Christian values expressed in the Sermon on the Mount than the total implosion of the Religious Right. Bush and his "base" have been an embarassment to fundamental American values and the Social Gospel. It is time for true patriots and true Christians to throw the bums out.
The Right cares not a fig for family values or they would not support a president who vetos health care for uninsured children. They want tax cuts so they can buy more SUVs to take their pasty white kids to their church/country clubs in. Good riddance if they fall into the infamy they so richly deserve.
Posted by: Mason Myatt | October 5, 2007 10:06 PM
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There may be a growing number of observant Christian voters who notice how little energy Dobson and his ilk waste addressing all that silly nonsense Jesus spouted about helping the poor.
This refual to be sidetracked by such humanistic concerns is what makes them Republicans. Historically, it is morally akin to sharing the Democratic Party with Dixiecrats and their KKK forebears. Let the Dobsons, the Franklin Grahams, the Ralph Reeds, the Ted Haggards et al. continue to stain the Republican Party.
Posted by: Glenn Becker | October 5, 2007 10:00 PM
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When I read Plato's "Allegory of the Cave," I grieve at the chained prisoners believing in those shadowed illusions before them, and curse at the James Dobsons of this world who are high priests to this kind of Dark Age. The Enlightenment sought to break the chains of ignorance and religious tyranny and educate their population about human rights and the freedom that increased knowledge makes possible. Some of those people had the genius to found our own government on those same principles. Yet still this country--in spite of public education and fine universities--STILL spawns religious leaders of tyranny. And people in this country STILL give credit to Christian Fundamentalism for the principles of our Constitution--a Constitution for which they show no intimate understanding, a Constitution that runs counter to Christian Fundamentalism. James Dobson is Lord of the Cave and has convinced enough of his prisoners in the dark to go to the polls and elect people corresponding to his own image to public office--people incapable of governing, people brimming with an ideological ignorance that touches our Constitution like a tangent touching a circle. How long must this madness go on? When will the rank-and-file citizens of this country show a capacity for reason, instead of listening to bigoted priests?
Posted by: David | October 5, 2007 9:53 PM
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The Christian right is the old confederacy. They lost the Civil War but continue their efforts thorugh an emotional/religious appeal to the uneducated southern voters and those heavily intoxicated by religion blended with right wing politics (the polilitcs of greed). They are unreasonable and use issues like abortion which play on people's paternal instincts to draw people into a sort of fascism where emotional/religions views trump constitutional interests or concern for the United States of America.
Dobson is a fringe individual who has made millions from old ladies who get intoxicated with his rhetoric and his gold paged Bible. He is a parasite on the vulnerable and has no interest in American democracy. He and his ilk are badly falling in power and his efforts to maintain his power are sad.
I will be glad when he retreats to his right wing conclave with his millions of dollars taken from old ladies and angry young white men. The sooner he leaves the public stage the sooner we can restore civil discourse in America.
Posted by: texfromnewmex | October 5, 2007 9:47 PM
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A question to the group. Does anyone know the various stances of any or all the candidates regarding the issue of allowing abortion in cases of rape and/or incest? While this has been a convenient "compromise" and safe haven in the past for many people, and especially politicians, it would seem to be the least logical and defensible. As defined in the American Pro-Choice/Pro-Life debate, either abortion is murder or it isn't; how a fetus was conceived would seem to be irrelevant.
Posted by: Neal | October 5, 2007 9:34 PM
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Sounds to me like McCain sold his soul to the Christian Right and has been "rightening up" to set up a peacemaking with them just in time to carry him through those first three critical tests (Iowa Caucus, NH Primary and the all important South Carolina Primary). It was Dubyah who put the deathblow on McCain in South Carolina in 2000, remember? I think if McCain sweeps the first three he'll be unbeatable at that point. I also think that Rudy or Fred will probably win two out of three and take it. At this point Rudy's still sitting pretty and if he CAN manage to shed the influence of the Christian Right from the Republican Party leadership he might pull it off. I don't think he'll make it through the general election with all the skeletons in his closet however. Too bad he's not a member of the Bush family.
Posted by: Chris Dunning | October 5, 2007 9:09 PM
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it is a sad commentary on the American political experiment that religious leaders of hokey religions and their equally crazy followers have any influenece on the election process. We can note that they are largely responsible for the worse President in our nation's history; have supported an immoral, illegal, and useless war; use a document from the Jews as a holy scripture whom do not have a Heaven, a Hell, Souls, Resurrection, or any of the panoply of "devices" added by these "true" believers to justify their bigotry, their ignorance, and their pride!
Posted by: Leo E Myers | October 5, 2007 8:30 PM
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Reply to mormon who claims he's not: After living in a theocratic state (i.e., Utah) for over 25 yrs, heaven helps this (once great) nation if a mormon is elected president. Indeed, Utah would re-elect Bush w/over 70% approval rating. The numbers speak for themselves.
Posted by: Rob | October 5, 2007 8:23 PM
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Wont somebody please do the world a favor and take this idiot out.
Posted by: pj521 | October 5, 2007 8:12 PM
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the repubs go under,the dems take over,raise our taxes,take our property through eminent domainand enact all their other lunacy,the country will wake up and start over.
Posted by: gary | October 5, 2007 8:08 PM
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If Dobson and his followers go through with this, it will be the best thing real Republicans could hope for. The current party is unrecognizable, to those of us old enough to remember the party that championed civil rights and vehemently fought against government intrusion into citizens' lives. It was Eisenhower who strongly warned against the military industrial complex, but it was the Republican Party who've brought that to fruition, elevating war profiteering to heretofore never seen excesses in the process.
Posted by: windrider | October 5, 2007 8:04 PM
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Well put. If we can't send these self-serving, arrogant, power-hungry, black-Muslim-latino-gay-fearing hypocrites to Hell (where they belong), perhaps we can sterilize them. At least politically.
Posted by: David Ellis | October 5, 2007 8:03 PM
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If Focus on Family really believed and trusted in God they would go to church on election day and pray for His will to be done. Going to the voting booth only shows they do not trust God to provide for this country.
Posted by: Beliver in Wisdom | October 5, 2007 7:34 PM
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If Focus on Family really believed and trusted in God they would go to church on election day and pray for His will to be done. Going to the voting booth only shows they do not trust God to provide for this country.
Posted by: Beliver in Wisdom | October 5, 2007 7:33 PM
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Of course, Mitt Romney is attempting to position himself as the logical candidate of a third party.
Dobson, et al, will first have to decide which Romney they want to believe. He has been on every side of every issue. Did they learn nothing from the the Bull Moose Party experience in 1912? It would guarantee a Democrat in the White House. On the issues the evangelicals care about, the worst R is better than the best D. Integrity, not religion, will keep Romney from being president.
Posted by: John K | October 5, 2007 7:27 PM
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Matthew claims: "..This nation was founded on Christian principles by born-again Christians and we Christians must reclaim it from the apostates."
- - - - - - - - - -
This oft-repeated falsehood needs to be sent to the junk heap of history along with, for example, Bush's meretricious fable that Saddam had nuclear weapons. Jefferson's famous cry against "every tyranny over the minds of men" was directed precisely against those born-again fundamentalist Christians, in those days hard-shell Episcopalian literalists, whom free-thinking Jefferson despised. The Treaty of Tripoli, ratified by Congress and signed by John Adams, explicitly states that the United States is not a "Christian nation" but one that accomodates all forms of religious and non-religious expression. The Founders were mostly undogmatic Deists and kept Jesus and miracles and supernaturalism and formal religion out of the Constitution. Madison was the most celebrated originator of the "wall" of separation between church and state. Lord help us if that wall is breached.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 5, 2007 7:24 PM
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Reporter1 is exactly right. Dobson is bluffing. I only wish he actually meant what he says. Unfortunately, he's a liar as well as a mean-spirited bully and proto-fascist.
Posted by: Marshall Onellion | October 5, 2007 7:03 PM
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Dobson is doing what most religious whack-jobs do best--inciting the ignorant with palpable blather.
Yo, James, you go ahead and start an independent movement backing some Bible-thumping adherent of yours for president. I double-dog dare you to.
The fact is, folks, my man James won't do it because, as the guy who wrote the above article pointed out, this supposed man of god is just talking smack.
Posted by: reporter1 | October 5, 2007 6:53 PM
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it is simply astounding that dr. dobson has such
venomn and anger in his comments and actions..IF THIS IS WHAT A DEVOUT CHRISTIAN IS.. NO THANKS
Posted by: jerry s | October 5, 2007 6:47 PM
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I can only hope that Mr. Dobson and colleagues are not bluffing. It would be delightful to have a Republican party I can recognize as my own after so many years of these sanctimonious, self-righteous zealots,...but I digress.
Posted by: Marshall Onellion | October 5, 2007 6:40 PM
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It is time Americans looked into the threat to America and democracy by the fanatic Christian extremists.
http://blog.escapenet.ch/Quixotictales/
Posted by: Richard Blankenburg | October 5, 2007 6:38 PM
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"Maybe...just maybe.....Dobson and his crew believe that the consequences of losing political clout is nothing compared to not taking a stand against what they believe is morally wrong. The latter being killing unborn babies."
While theoretically possible, given the evidence it is highly unlikely with P<<0.01.
He has no problems with beating an 18 month old kid with a board (Dare To Discipline). He doesn't evidence similar moral stands against the execution of innocent people. Destroying whole cities and the civilians inside them don't bother him in the least, especially if they don't happen to be fundamentalist Christians. I could go on, but you get the idea.
I remember the first time I ever heard of him was at church and one of his screeds was in the bulletin. Reading it, I thought to myself, "Who IS this nutcase?! This is one sick puppy!" Nothing I have seen since has changed my opinion.
Posted by: dkm | October 5, 2007 6:37 PM
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It is time Americans looked into the threat to America and democracy by the fanatic Christian extremists.
http://blog.escapenet.ch/Quixotictales/
Posted by: Richard Blankenburg | October 5, 2007 6:37 PM
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It is time Americans looked into the threat to America and democracy by the fanatic Christian extremists.
http://blog.escapenet.ch/Quixotictales/
Posted by: Richard Blankenburg | October 5, 2007 6:37 PM
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Personally, I think Dobson is doing this for his own flock more than anything else. He can't possibly be serious. It is, as you note, a much more fractured flock than it has been in the past.
I also saw someone, Dobson? on ABC News the other night, and he scared the bejessus out of me. Got out there on national TV and claimed, "It's all about the power!" as his face fought a losing battle with a devilish grin.
It was truly the most satanic (and desperate!)moment I've ever encountered on TV, Reaper not withstanding.
Posted by: ethan quern | October 5, 2007 6:30 PM
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Focus on the Family is no longer doing the work of Christ. It is now, for all practical purposes, a political organization with a focus on a conservative, right-wing evangelical agenda. And it should be taxed as such.
Posted by: Larry McDonell | October 5, 2007 6:17 PM
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Focus on the Family is no longer doing the work of Christ. It is now, for all practical purposes, a political organization with a focus on a conservative, right-wing evangelical agenda. And it should be taxed as such.
Posted by: Larry McDonell | October 5, 2007 6:16 PM
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Does anyone really believe that this creepy, nutty, nasty old man has any real sway. He sits up there on his imagined high horse and thinks that the Citizens of The United States even gives a damn what he thinks or says. It would be a blessing for the Republican Party if the could shed these kooks and send them down to bottomless perdition or atleast to the dustbin of history. Understand that Dobson and his merry band of sheep have no interest in the well being of The U.S.A. or the rest of the world for that matter. If they truly had there way, their world would be almost akin the China of Mao ZeDong (Tse-Tung). Nobody has any direct line to God. Nobody has ever had one, nor will anybody ever have one. Organized Religion is a sham. All it is is Men and some women using to power of suggestion to line their pockets and obtain power. The United States was not founded as a christian nation. Why don't these idiots read their history. The founding fathers had contempt for religion. Whether it is The Pope, Archbisop of Canterburry, the now late Falwell, Robertson, Dobson, or the Imans, Rabbi's ect. They are all men and nothing more. They do not have any more knowledge than the rest of us. Many of them are corrupt and thirsty for power. Just regard them with contempt and make up your own mind on what you belive will be best fot The United States.
Posted by: Richard Doherty | October 5, 2007 6:11 PM
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Dobson is a bully, plain and simple. He rules his empire from a gilded throne, high above Colorado Springs, where, interesting, the Chamber of Commerce is fighting to demonstrate that the city is not intolerant. They try, but they fail. Dobson rules. He has multiple houses, multiple cars, like the Ayatollah that he is, he breezes thru town spreading his hate filled theocratic vision. The locals have a favorite bumper sticker "Focus on your own damn family". Soon the Republican party and the country as a whole, will wake up and abandon Dobson's brand of destructive politics. And not a moment too soon.
Posted by: Peter | October 5, 2007 5:54 PM
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As a family counsellor, Dobson has had a tremendously useful ministry. Many families have every reason to be grateful to him. This includes those who have benefitted by reading his books, especially his earlier ones.
However, when it comes to his political pronoucements, as a conservative evangelical Christian myself, he embarrasses me.
Posted by: John Francis | October 5, 2007 5:49 PM
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Sorry, the post from Mr. Mark at 4:56 PM was actually mine. I tried to respond to him and accidentally put his name were mine should have gone.
Posted by: Gaby | October 5, 2007 5:03 PM
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I believe that had America not allowed abortions into the thrid trimester, this would be more or less a non-issue. The enormity of outright killing an infant in the wormb started the general opposition to abortion even among the non-religious. The procedure is an atrocity.
I am pro choice, but not the extent that a baby that would be fully viable outside the womb be destroyed.
As medicine becomes more and more advanced I have heard of fetuses born prematurely to survive as early as a 5-month pregnancies.
I think we should allow abortion when the mother's life is in danger, but, in all other cases, restrict the procedure to a shorter timeframe when we can be reasonbly sure that the baby would not survive had it been born prematurely. In general it is safe to say up to the 20th week of pregnancy.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
Posted by: Mr. Mark | October 5, 2007 4:56 PM
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"If they do abandon the Republicans then they will surely induce a Blue-state rapture: the return of a Democrat to the White House in triumph and in glory and the relegation of the once-mighty White Evangelicals to the hellish oblivion of third-party politics."
Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of people.
Posted by: Spanish Inquisitor | October 5, 2007 4:55 PM
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Re: abortion.
Jewish law states that a fetus is a "partial life" while in the womb. It only becomes a "full-fledged human being" when the baby's head exits the birth canal.
Jewish law also allows for abortion in certain situations. (see here: http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_abor.htm )
To the anti-choice crowd: do you believe Jewish law ion abortion is incorrect as outlined above (and as expanded upon in the provided link)?
Posted by: Mr Mark | October 5, 2007 4:17 PM
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If you believe that abortion is the moral equivalent of the Nazis' slaughter of the Jews, how could you possibly vote for a candidate who supports it as a convenience?
"Oh, Adolph is a pretty bad sort, but look at how he's helped the economy."
Posted by: Scumps | October 5, 2007 3:55 PM
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If I remember correctly Jesus told his followers not to take up with politics. For you are not of that world", Jesus also tells us about False Religions, and False leaders for we shall know both by there Fruits. Its apparent the religious right does not practice the teachings of Christ.
I also remember Jesus stated" those who do not adhere to his teachings" do not call yourself's Christians.
Posted by: Gary Weldon | October 5, 2007 3:44 PM
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Does anyone know? When Jesus comes again on a cloud to claim the His throne will there be FREE ELECTIONS? The answer is obvious, NO!
Thus democracy, the whole idea of people controlling their own destiny is ridiculous. There's just one thing left to do. Find the true religion and turn the destiny of man over to it's high holy one. That's been done already.
Matthew 16:18 (Jesus speaking)
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
AND
Matthew 16:19 (Jesus speaking)
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
Notice that Matthew 16:18 dose not say churches.
It's the pope, successor to St Peter who shall run the "kingdom of God, Earth" while we await the return of Jesus. And he has the arbitrary power to condemn anyone to hell. Has he condemned all non Roman Catholics to hell? He has no requirement to announce his actions.
Lucky for us the Bible is a proved hoax.
Posted by: BGone | October 5, 2007 3:37 PM
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Bobby said:
"Maybe...just maybe.....Dobson and his crew believe that the consequences of losing political clout is nothing compared to not taking a stand against what they believe is morally wrong."
Well, we KNOW that's not it. Dobson has had no problem reigning in his moral high horse when it strengthened him politically. Not too long ago, Dobson and his crew were accusing the rest of us of being anti-American for opposing the god-fearing Republican party and George W Bush. If you opposed Bush in 2003, then you opposed god. When Bush was still fooling people, Dobson had no problem with torture, corruption, and illegal wars. Only now that the pet president is losing power does Dobson question Republican values.
Posted by: skeptimal | October 5, 2007 3:36 PM
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"No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever" is from the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom. The first amendment is a short hand version of the same thing.
In spite those words, tax laws force all "to support" all official recognized religions. Only official religions actually own real estate. All others, so called home owners included must pay RE taxes that is paramount to rent. Don't pay and the government will sell your RE.
Example: Eddie Murphy's 3.5 million dollar mansion has over $50,000 per year taxes while the Crystal Cathedral worth much more pays none. Murphy's mansion is now in foreclosure. Hurst Castle was donated to the state of California rather than wait for the tax sale.
I use the RE tax example of how tax laws force all "to support" religions because it's so obvious, unquestionable. The Bush administration has done massive payback by doling out hard tax dollars to ministries, (that supported his election?).
They sell their souls for 30 pieces of silver.
http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul explains it all. Devil and not God is behind religion.
Religion is the great enemy of democracy.
Devil worship is the great enemy of democracy.
God is not the great enemy of democracy.
God requires no worship or help from man.
When man cries out to God for help, Devil always answers while God turns a deaf ear.
Posted by: BGone | October 5, 2007 3:33 PM
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It would take only a few hours for a disinterested mind to discover that our country's founders were, as a whole, Christians, but profoundly dedicated to the idea that they didn't want anyone's faith to impede what they saw as fundamentally human rights.
Sure, Thomas Jefferson probably never even met a Buddhist. And George Washington, who only left the country once in his life, never got to attend a Hindu ritual of any kind.
So yes, they were Christians. But they'd had enough of the Church of England to know that bad things happen when religionists dictate public policy.
We were lucky to have this particular combination of people at the genesis of our nation. Many similarly-inspired nations never had the luxury of such open-minded men. For instance, once Simon Bolivar died, his short-sighted and staunchly Catholic deputies destroyed his vision of the South American continent free from superstition.
Was our nation founded by Christians? Absolutely. Did they have the foresight to realize the nation might one day be run by a non-Christian? Absolutely not; that was just not a possibility in their world. But they were enlightened enough to foresee that nobody's religion should reign over the nation when reason could be used to settle disputes. And THAT is the small kernel of wisdom that still makes the U.S. an amazingly successful experiment in human judgment.
We've made an awesome number of mistakes; but by and large, we've done the right things - in spite of our short-term desires for a world that conforms to what small-minded interpretations of ancient texts tell us it should be.
And the public's revulsion against what the present administration has inflicted upon us in the name of what is "righteous" might do more than anything else to advance the eventual success of reason versus superstition in this country.
It is my hope that President Bush's evangelism has
contributed to the end of evangelism more than any other outside force could. . .
Posted by: Ovid | October 5, 2007 2:21 PM
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Matthew:
I am curious. What do you think would happen in this country if the gov. were "reclaimed" for you born again christians? (I put that in quotes because I know something about history, just like STUART, and know that the founding fathers were far from being born again christians. At most some of them where deists) What would you say would be an acceptable treatment of unbelievers?
Posted by: Dr.R.P. | October 5, 2007 1:59 PM
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Matthew:
"..This nation was founded on Christian principles by born-again Christians and we Christians must reclaim it from the apostates."
I always think people are joking when they say stuff like this. Saying the USA was founded on "Xtian principles" isn't an outright fabrication, but it is a distortion of truth. the Enlightenment "Xtian principles" of the Founders have nothing in common with the hateful rhetoric of the contemporary evangelicals. I would rather be an "apostate" than an infidel like Dobson and his ilk.
Posted by: stuart | October 5, 2007 1:36 PM
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OVID:
"Talibaptist" ---- GREAT MONIKER!!!! Love it!!!
K:
"The voters can see these people for what they really are (insane), they can see the fascist nature of their plans for America....."
Are you sure about that? I don't have as much confidence in my fellow American voters.
Posted by: Gaby | October 5, 2007 12:54 PM
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I find this whole discussion so undemocratic and so un American that I am only left to believe that we are still intent on drowning ourselves in holy water. If America is to survive as a strong and meaningful country standing amongst important nations and secular leaders we (the people of America) MUST show the religious fundamentalist that there is NO PLACE for your rhetoric in Politics - we do not need religion to teach us ethics, in fact quite the reverse.
Posted by: Robert | October 5, 2007 12:50 PM
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I find this whole discussion so undemocratic and so un American that I am only left to believe that we are still intent on drowning ourselves in holy water. If America is to survive as a strong and meaningful country standing amongst important nations and secular leaders we (the people of America) MUST show the religious fundamentalist that there is NO PLACE for your rhetoric in Politics - we do not need religion to teach us ethics, in fact quite the reverse.
Posted by: Robert | October 5, 2007 12:50 PM
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Dobson, the aging dottering zealot - may he join Fallwell and Kennedy in whatever afterlife they deserve, and soon.
Dobson is one angry bitter old man, as true an example of Great Evil as we have ever seen in our country. With about half of the republican faithful kissing their butts he and robertson have managed a complete takeover of that party, and with karl rove's 51-percent tactics have taken over the country - or at least thought they did.
Imagine the Great Pride these dominionists were feeling when the politicians began sucking up to them in public. Not just the Tom DeLays and Ashcrofts and Boners (ok, I misspelled it on purpose, sorry), but even republicans who don't believe their crap were sucking up.
But their time has come and gone. The voters can see these people for what they really are (insane), they can see the fascist nature of their plans for America, and those who have sucked up to them the most will be THROWN out of office in 2008.
As much as I am disgusted with the democrats, as much as I have always been digusted with the democrats, I will for the first time in my life vote for one for president and for state and local offices, because the republicans must be thrown out in order to remove Dobson's fingers from our brains.
He'll be dead soon, it can't be soon enough.
Posted by: K | October 5, 2007 11:44 AM
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With any luck, FOCUS ON THE FAMILY will run itself off the rail in the next four years. Those conservative Christians who aspire to effect real social change are beginning to realize that abortion isn't the only issue in the world, and are finding that voting against their own moral interests (an unnecessary and horrifically unethical war, paying off any interest that can afford a PAC) just because a politician ostensibly shares their faith is getting old fast - whereas the Talibaptists who rather nakedly seek power more than social good are realizing that Republicans are starting to figure out that the majority of Americans are less and less interested in what they are selling.
This is a promising development. The more noise Dobson makes, the more mainstream Americans can learn how far away he is from them. Many of us are beginning to realize that asking for a God-test is the surest way to get politicians to lie; and we have real problems that require more of all of us than a public discussion of whether our mythologies need to be reflected in our policies.
Posted by: Ovid | October 5, 2007 11:39 AM
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Dobson and his colleagues abandon Republicans? First of all they do not owe their vote to anyone of any party. If one were running under the Democratic ticket but was pro-life and Christian he/she could certainly count on being "abandoned" by Secular Humanists. Dobson is no different than any other American who can vote based on a candidates and his own worldview. He sees mass-urder as an important issue, even the important issue facing this nation. However, I will say that any of the Republican candidates are more likely to nominate conservative judges and therefore Dobson and his friends may be shooting themselves in the foot.
Posted by: steve dornan | October 5, 2007 11:38 AM
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Dobson and his colleagues abandon Republicans? First of all they do not owe their vote to anyone of any party. If one were running under the Democratic ticket but was pro-life and Christian he/she could certainly count on being "abandoned" by Secular Humanists. Dobson is no different than any other American who can vote based on a candidates and his own worldview. He sees mass-urder as an important issue, even the important issue facing this nation. However, I will say that any of the Republican candidates are more likely to nominate conservative judges and therefore Dobson and his friends may be shooting themselves in the foot.
Posted by: steve dornan | October 5, 2007 11:38 AM
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The collapse of Republican evangelical hegemony may be near at hand. Last year, something like 30% of self-identified evangelicals voted Democratic according to exit polls. Add this to Dobson's failed attempt to expel Rich Cizik from his post with the National Association of Evangelicals (Cizik's heresy was to state that climate change is a serious problem and that environmentalism is not incompatible with Christian stewardship) and it feels like Dobson is making a last desperate grasp at relevancy.
Posted by: Daniel J. Drazen | October 5, 2007 11:30 AM
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"Which will relegate the once-might White Evangelicals to the hellish oblivion of third=party politics" RIGHT WHERE THEY BELONG !
Posted by: JimBob | October 5, 2007 11:28 AM
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Personally, I think that Dobson is busy playing to his own Bible-belt constituency. These people already feel that Bush didn't do enough for them on the core issues (abortion, school prayer, etc) - there is no way they would ever be satisfied under a Guiliani presidency. They're fricking zealots, for Pete's sake!
Dobson has given up on 2008 - he is simply going through the motions so that Ma and Pa Kettle will keep send him their dimes and quarters.
Posted by: Rogermx | October 5, 2007 11:25 AM
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Let us all be thankful to James Dobson for taking such a courageous and Godly stance. Of course we Christians must vote for a Bible-believing Christian; such is the only kind of leader that we will accept and respect. This nation was founded on Christian principles by born-again Christians and we Christians must reclaim it from the apostates.
Posted by: Matthew | October 5, 2007 10:52 AM
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Maybe...just maybe.....Dobson and his crew believe that the consequences of losing political clout is nothing compared to not taking a stand against what they believe is morally wrong. The latter being killing unborn babies.
Too often we see politicians changing their stripes to please the issue or constutuency du jour, anything to get elected eh?
Maybe...just maybe...the current stance of Evangelicals means their delegation to the "hellish oblivion of third party politics" is not as important as standing up to their morals and values.
I believe integrity defines such an action.
Posted by: Bobby | October 5, 2007 10:45 AM
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There is more to politics than religion. As our soldiers die, our treasury is drained, our salaries stagnate, our children go without health care and our mortgages default, more than a few people are thinking about the religious convictions of the next president. Some of us are actually looking for someone with a plan, with some answers, with a brain.
You give Dobson an importance he and his movement do not deserve by focusing on what he says. Maybe you should try focusing on what the rest of America is saying. They will pick the next president, not Dobson or his closed minded followers.
Posted by: Fate | October 5, 2007 10:18 AM
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Horrors! A democrat in the White House! How can we ever stand that, peace on earth, balanced budget and news that only brings a smile.
All this lying, cheating, stealing and the waste of human life is not Jesus like but it is moral. The religious authorities say so. Jesus is crying and the ministry is selling His tears.
Has Pat Robertson announced the outcome of the 2008 election yet?
The ministry serves Devil, http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul and claims Devil is God. Don't make Devil God but makes Devil happy. Devil is saddened by all the immorality of GOP candidates.
Posted by: BGone | October 5, 2007 9:52 AM
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Michael,
Could you explain to me how Bush stole the last election? Perhaps you're using the word "stole" to mean "Kerry was such a coward that he would only state his beliefs and/or agenda after he found out which way the wind was blowing." If that's the case, I agree with you.
Also, you can characterize the 2000 election any which way you like, but the fact of the matter is that Al Gore couldn't win his own state. What does that say when your friends and neighbors in your home state think you're a worthless pile of cow dung?