"Inherit the Wind" has thoroughly confused our understanding of the relationship between biblical faith and the emergence of modern science.
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REMEMBER: Voting for HilLlary Clinton, is same as re-Voting for Prez B. Clinton.
This is 'illegal' , aka PROXY President by Nepotism! Presidential 'Term-Limits' are being violated. Do not be Stupid! The Communist have infiltrated Sweet Sweet U.S.A's Government of 'THE PEOPLE!
So, Please do not vote for 'Hillary & Bill Clinton! Thank You!
IMPORTANT , Sweet Sweet America:
A Russian Communist Conspiracy in Sweet Sweet America "i" now EXPOSED!
HARK Humates of America!:
BEWARE:
Senator 'Chuck Schumer' (of N.Y., a 'Senior Senator) is been "BRIBED' by the RUSSIAN-INTERNATIONAL-MAFIA! Example:
He, Mr. Schumer et al, via "L*U*K OIL" got money from them, (via ex-'GETTY gas station(s) moguls, now turned "Russian Mafia Government Front" as Owners in America. Please call FBI & CIA!] and of Which "Chucky-Boy' Senator SCHUMER promoted , knowingly in such a great 'COMMY' Conspiracy!
Forgive me, but it is true!!!!!!!!!!
ATT: You get pais per "CLICK' , then pay 'US' [free Spirited Bloggers] for Stealing OUR ideas/Writings!
Note: You must Post [ALL & not SENSORED] or repost {hours of WORK (free, but NO more!) thinking & typing) what You-Failed to post. There was No Cuseses. Everything was acoording to 'YOUR' rules, not mine.
Yes, 34,000 people a year in AMERICA , the sweet, comit Suicide. So Better they Volunteer for Army & die Protecting the great REPUBLIC & FEDERATION of "Space-Ship" Planet EARTH against SuperStupidStitious Pre-Apocalyptic BIBLIO, QURANO, GEETAO, MANIACS.
WE "i"nellegent "i"ntellectuals "i"ndividuals. aka, HUMATES (not Humans, as JOKTANIAN, not PELEGIAN,Sporades (Wom) & Mavorites (Man)) Live on space-Ship Earth! aka S.S. GAIA, S.S. GEOID, S.S. TELLUSng Something instead!!
So please post ALL that you have sieved/selected & sensored! Not jus "i", but many many Bloggers!
NOTICE: "NEWS-WEEK" & WASHINGTON POST & CO, et al,;
IT is about your ten 'FACE's. not about our one honest Face's!
You will be sued , in 'Class' like, in Federal Court very very Soon!
not just "i" , but to many you say,
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VOTE:
'NO' to News-Papers Company's owning {your Kids minds future & yours too] against them owning T.V Stations & Satellite Station!
SAY: 'NO' , via F.C.C., to News Paper Company's! 'NO' Broad Casting! Say or Vote, No!
And, Say 'NO' to allowing Religious Satellite Televangelical(s) to broadcast their 'EVIL' Anti-Society Story's & Behavior's too!
Thanks, Eclati-On (nevr Off's) American Mon's & Monsa's!
Take Back your almost Hijacked Nation! Take back Sweet sweet America! Now!
< ?: +)/ Ya Ya!
December 16, 2007 9:59 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 16, 2007 09:59
BGone:
LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLll
October 30, 2007 7:09 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 30, 2007 07:09
Bgone,
So you believe in "ugly wingie talking fictional flying thingies"? But not in God?
October 29, 2007 11:36 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 29, 2007 23:36
Civic Humanist:
I see you're denying the divinity of Hirohito, all Roman emperors, Alexander the great, (something) to say nothing of the original Christs, Pharaohs. See http://www.hoax-buster.org about Christs called Pharaoh.
God is an office held by men who by and only by definition exist. It's my understanding that God is the best job there is which explains why there are so many Gods floating around today. They call themselves ministers and attempt to disguise their positions by claiming their power is really in supernatural being(s) managing to fool only the foolish.
Billy Graham + saves = X
(minus) God + saves = X
---------------------
Billy Graham + saves - God - saves = X - X = zero
Billy Graham - God = zero
Billy Graham = God
God is an office held by Billy Graham, the "higher power" GWB consulted before he attacked Iraq. But Billy is not the only higher power the president consulted. See http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul which happens to have the story of the supernatural being presumed to be God.
I expect "PROOF GOD EXISTS" was just funning the evangelicals.
October 29, 2007 10:22 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 29, 2007 22:22
Proof there is a God wrote: "Scientists say all began as a teacup size blob of highly compressed matter that always was and always will be and it explodes and expanded. The Bible says God always was and always will be and created everything from nothing. God's number one characteristic is durability, can't prove there is no God. Therefore God is a teacup size blob of highly compressed matter that got really mad about nothing at all and exploded. Science and religion have all that in common darling and absolutely nothing else."
Hopefully thou art being whimsically ironic like the "god" that "got really mad about nothing at all and exploded."
Logical - Rational - Fallacy: From "can't prove there is no God" it does not logically / rationally follow that "there is a god", let alone that "God exists"!
Proof: Self-evident Premises + Rules of Logic - - - - -> Indubitable Conclusion
Self-evident Premise: No human - by definition - is God.
Self-evident Premise: God - by definition - is non-finite in its comprehension of what was, what is, what will be, what could be, & what could not be.
Hence: The "proof" that "god exists" is that being's own self-evident self-knowledge!
Hence: Humans - not being God - are - by definition - finite in their comprehension of what was, what is, what will be, what could be, & what could not be.
Hence: No human can comprehend what God could be notwithstanding whether or not God is.
Hence: No human can produce - except accidentally - a "proof" that God exists.
Moreover: Even if such a proof is produced, no human could or would know that that is indeed the "proof" being sought.
QED!
October 29, 2007 7:55 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 29, 2007 19:55
May I suggest a book for anyone who thinks that science is a Western invention - or even arose from the golden age of Grecian thought?
Read Dick Teresi's "Lost Discoveries - the Multicultural Roots of Modern Science from the Babylonians to the Maya."
I think you'll find it eye opening.
Here's the publisher's synopsis:
"In the tradition of Daniel Boorstin, the co-founder of Omni delivers an original work of history that demonstrates why modern science rests on a foundation built by ancient and medieval non-European societies.
Lost Discoveries explores the mostly unheralded scientific breakthroughs from the ancient world - Babylonians, Egyptians, Indians, Africans, New World, and Oceanic tribes, among others, and from the non-European medieval world. By example, the Egyptians developed the concept of the lowest common denominator and the Indians developed the use of zero and negative numbers. The Chinese observed, reported, and dated eclipses between 1400 and 1200 B.C. The Chinese also set the stage for later Hindu scholars, who refined the concept of particles and the void. Five thousand years ago, Sumerians were able to assert that the earth was circular. Islamic scientists fixed problems in Ptolemy's geocentric cosmology. The Quechuan Indians of Peru were the first to vulcanize rubber.
This first comprehensive, authoritative, popularly written, multicultural history of science fills in a crucial gap in the history of science."
October 29, 2007 6:49 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 29, 2007 18:49
Scientists say all began as a teacup size blob of highly compressed matter that always was and always will be and it explodes and expanded.
The Bible says God always was and always will be and created everything from nothing.
God's number one characteristic is durability, can't prove there is no God. Therefore God is a teacup size blob of highly compressed matter that got really mad about nothing at all and exploded.
Science and religion have all that in common darling and absolutely nothing else.
October 29, 2007 5:41 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 29, 2007 17:41
Concerned The Christian Now Liberated:
Nostradamus a hoaxer? Next thing I suppose you'll say Joseph Smith was a hoaxer. And the Oracle of Delphi, Samuel the "seer" were they hoaxers too? Sure they were. Warning: noticing Muhammad was a hoaxer can be hazardous to your health. Yeah, sure, no flying wingie things. Atheists!
October 29, 2007 5:30 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 29, 2007 17:30
Bgone,
Nostradamus? You must be kidding!!! Talk about a "hoaxer".
"Most of the academic sources ....maintain that the associations made between world events and Nostradamus' quatrains are largely the result of misinterpretations or mistranslations (sometimes deliberate) or else are so tenuous as to render them useless as evidence of any genuine predictive power. Moreover, none of the sources listed offers any evidence that anyone has ever interpreted any of Nostradamus' quatrains specifically enough to allow a clear identification of any event in advance.[1]" ....summarizes the situation but your friend satan can apparently persuade you to believe anything.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostradamus
October 29, 2007 4:25 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 29, 2007 16:25
Concerned:
Have you reviewed Nostradamus' recent found book "picture prophecies" yet? How do you think he made such accurate predictions without help from wingie things? Devil may care while only God knows the future.
The 'experts' are saying some scary things - pope in exile, (on the moon I suppose) mass slaying of clergy, anti Christ lurking about, all sorts of fun stuff. That's things that are imminent, just around the corner.
He, Nostradamus predicted 9-11, attempts on pope's life and lots of other events that have already happened. I saw more than one that predicted hoax buster, still looking at the whole book myself. The experts don't know about that yet. Like you, they're looking at the picture writing but are illiterate, gotta wait until it happens to know it's coming.
http://www.hoax-buster.org if you want a second, third even chance. With a little bit of luck it won't be your last chance.
October 29, 2007 3:26 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 29, 2007 15:26
rm-rf:
No doubt, "I love the talk about Hitler and Stalin as if they are natural products of atheism and science."
Stalin was given a bit of Jesuit education, mother dreamed of him becoming one of them. It seems to have 'taken' given the inquisitions as a tool to measure the results.
This applies to both Hitler and Stalin and all 'chicken hawks' as well. Suppose everyone goes on to a 'next' world upon their death here in this world. Think about what happened when Hitler and Stalin entered that next world. Is death final? Ancient warriors had nightmares when their victims appeared live and well in their dreams.
Hell is the psychological defense against retaliation by the victims in the next world. War is the situation where two or more groups of people take license to send each other to an early hell. I guess the question is which one of the Hitler, Stalin pair needed hell to be real the most.
Take hell away and religion doesn't have much appeal. Mr Wiegel had the gun of hell held to his head while he was too young to do any serious thinking. Now it's a permanent fixture making him a puppet that dances to the pope's tune. He's caught between a rock and a hard spot with no way out. Pitiful. Having someone in his condition making policy is absurd, results as one would expect.
October 29, 2007 3:07 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 29, 2007 15:07
Gerry,
Sorry for the delay in responding.
I was making 2 points in my previous points;
one major, one minor.
The major point I'm less sure about than I was before. I made the point that the Abrahamic faiths opened the door to sceintific inquiry. But some other commenters reminded us that other civilizations also achieved some level of progress on these fronts. (chinese, mayan, aztec.) With the Mayans and Aztecs, a big part of the motiviation for their astronomical observations were religios, So Christianity wasn't unique in this.
Also, "dark ages" in Europe should remind me that "progress" isn't assured. As a card-carrying member of the Religious Right, I'd like to think that Christianity was somehow special, but I'm forced to wonder what other factors are involved in which civilizations thrive scientifically.
Gerry, you responded to the second, more minor point I made, which had to do with the tone of some of the previous posts. I believe one the few constants in humanity is the desire to feel superior (morally, intellectually, etc.)
Aristotle is a historical figure much admired by people both religious and secular. Yet, as you pointed out, much if not most of what he believed about the natural world was wrong, just as wrong as those held by many of "religious zealots" of yesteryear and today. If we could talk to our descendents who will live 1500 years from now, how will we answer them when they ask "how could believe such things as the big bang, superstrings, dark matter, or whatever it is that will be disproven? "oh but we're different. we weren't like "those people", you know, the religious ones. We were just wrong scientifically." If they have the same attitude many of us have, they won't notice the difference. After all, Aristotle was just as wrong as Bishop so-and-so from the dark ages.
Sorry for the length of the post. One of these days, I'll learn to say the things I want more succinctly.
October 29, 2007 3:06 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 29, 2007 15:06
Hate to disappoint the Bright-Uns but Catholics, Orthodox and the fast disappearing body of mainline Protestants have no problems with the theory of evolution.
PS Evidence: A quick count of the above 67 posts showed Christians outnumbered by the (self-proclaimed) good, great, bright and beautiful--are you all so modest?--by about, oh, 7 or 8 to 1.
Conclusion:"On Faith" has to be renamed. How about No Faith (or at least not much)
October 29, 2007 2:47 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 29, 2007 14:47
John Griffith(bright);
Excellent essay,full of sense,common and scientific.
My guess is,religious bloggers will ignore it.
Most cannot handle the truth.
October 29, 2007 10:48 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 29, 2007 10:48
Who - ontologically (!) - is the true George Weigel? . . . Here - in his own words - is "who-what" he is - a "man of faith" in his own righteousness as a discerner of authentic political power - well beyond the empirical scepticism of those faith-based communities not sharing his own peculiar insight into the worthiness of GWB into whose care his "god" has placed us . . . for our own good - - -
"There is a charism of political discernment that is unique to the vocation of public service. That charism is not shared by bishops, stated clerks, rabbis, imams, or ecumenical and interreligious agencies. Moral clarity in a time of war demands moral seriousness from public officials. It also demands a measure of political modesty from religious leaders and public intellectuals, in the give-and-take of democratic deliberation."
http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=426&var_recherche=%93Moral+Clarity+in+a+Time+of+War%94
October 29, 2007 9:47 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 29, 2007 09:47
I love the talk about Hitler and Stalin as if they are natural products of atheism and science. The posters who imply this clearly agree with Weigels non-existant logic... i.e. that Christiantiy naturally leads to science, and by the same fallacious resoning Hitler and Stalin are by products of scientific/atheistic thinking - by that reasoning I guess Christanianity also naturally leads to Nazism becuase you know of course Germany was a Judeo Christian country (however the anti-semitism in Nazi Germany can be traced to Christian roots) - I guess it also "naturally" leads to communism as Germany and Russia are Judeo Christian nations. Weigel need learn some critical thinking skills. Just becuase something shows up in the same place as something you like or dislike does not mean they have the same cause - well duh...
October 29, 2007 8:34 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 29, 2007 08:34
Who - ontologically (!) - is the true George Weigel? . . . Here - in his own words - is "who-what" he is - a "man of faith" in his own righteousness as a discerner authentic political power - well beyond the empirical scepticism of those faith-based communities not sharing his own peculiar insight into the worthiness of GWB into whose care his "god" has placed us . . . for our own good - - -
"There is a charism of political discernment that is unique to the vocation of public service. That charism is not shared by bishops, stated clerks, rabbis, imams, or ecumenical and interreligious agencies. Moral clarity in a time of war demands moral seriousness from public officials. It also demands a measure of political modesty from religious leaders and public intellectuals, in the give-and-take of democratic deliberation."
http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=426&var_recherche=%93Moral+Clarity+in+a+Time+of+War%94
October 29, 2007 4:54 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 29, 2007 04:54
Science is a broad term, covering a variety of different disciplines.
The foundations of Technical Science as we know it today belong almost exclusively to the Greeks. Archimedes was the greatest of all physicists and mathematicians of all time, including modern times. Christianity played no part. The world had to wait for Newton and Leibniz to rediscover the integral calculus Archimedes invented in the Greek/Roman heyday. Aristotle might "only" have been a mere philosopher, but his gift for classifying things in useful ways, for analysis of them, has been informing the scientific method for the centuries since.
Finally.......we should not forget the Chinese, who preceded even the Greeks in certain areas.
October 29, 2007 3:51 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 29, 2007 03:51
Bgone,
Be Gone With You and your "ugly wingie talking flying fictional thingies" and take your demented webpages with you!!!!
If there is a God, it is akin to the Singularity!!! and by definition has no ugly or pretty wingie thingies flying about!!
October 28, 2007 11:45 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 28, 2007 23:45
@ Homeowner
While it gets tiring to see posts like yours come up again and again, ad nauseum, it is good to know that as a self-professed Biblical literalist you actually have genuine questions and are ready to learn. There are answers to the questions you have posed. I shall make my best attempt at satisfing your bewilderment.
I don't know what an average evolutionary scientist looks like to you, but, God is not taken out of the picture because he was never in it in the first place.
Positing a divine agent in evolution violates Occam's Razor. If you are not familiar with Occam's Razor it simply states that one should prefer the simpler explanation. Any explanation that involves a divine agent adds an additional layer of complexity that is uneccessary therefore we should not prefer that explanation over a simpler natural one.
You seem to be suggesting that empirical evidence for God's hand in the evolution of our species exists but scientists are ignoring it. If you have evidence not possessed by the rest of us, by all means share it with us and cite your sources. If I had to guess, I would say that you are referring to such things as "irreducible complexity," Anselm's Ontological argument and the finely-tuned universe. These arguments have been dealt with in many scientific texts and discussions: Dawkins' and Stengers' books immediately come to mind, as well as any basic introductory philosophy text because they are, of course, non-scientific arguments.
You are confused about the difference between a fact and a theory. Allow me to explain. A theory cannot be a fact, and vice versa. Theories are plural while facts are singular. The theory of evolution is composed of many individual facts -- empirical evidence. When a hypothesis has been tested over and over and has stood up to rigorous scrutiny, and when all of the evidence overwhelmingly supports it, a hypothesis then becomes a theory. Thus, a theory cannot be a fact and a theory states the highest level of scientific confidence in its accuracy as is possible to achieve.
If you're still not convinced, I encourage you to seek out a trained scientist -- you can find the answers to your questions there.
October 28, 2007 10:51 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 28, 2007 22:51
Concerned The Christian Now Liberated:
Bgone,
How did you get so brainwashed in "satanism"??
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You looking for a lecture on the difference between Lucifer and Satan?
Read this http://www.hoax-buster.org and see if you can at least look at the photographs of Satan.
Then go to http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul for the "official" history of the big rebellion in heaven led by the angel Lucifer.
I don't advise worship of any kind or of anything because God cannot be identified, (pagans gods maybe). It would be OK to worship God but every time man cries God Devil shows up.
However, Satan worship is better than what Jews, Christians and Muslims do, worshop Lucifer. Getting on Satan's good side won't really help, like praying to the Virgin Mary. Don't forget that Satan is the angel of God that gives the "test of soul." Now if one could get Satan to overlook a few sins then maybe one could "skate" into heaven. Don't count on it. Getting in Lucifer's good "hot" side is automatic and done by all of faith.
I believe in God and all those supernatural beings. Don't you?
October 28, 2007 9:18 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 28, 2007 21:18
Tim Mac
You got that right.
Circular "logic" is the stock and trade of Relilgious "Intellectuals."
You should see the "mental gymnastics" my fellow Mormons have to employ to explain the myriad of contradictions and messy facts in their theology and Mythology about Joseph Smith.
October 28, 2007 9:13 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 28, 2007 21:13
"Why did the scientific method, which assumes that the natural world is rationally knowable, arise in the West, and not elsewhere?"
The fundamental underpinning of this question is the inaccurate assumption that scientific method arose exclusively in the West. It did not. The Chinese developed the scientific method independently of the West centuries earlier. The Greeks developed the scientific method before the birth of Christ and independent of Judaism. Muslim scientific advancement outstripped the backwards Christians for centuries. The Abrahamic religions have routinely been anti-science throughout their histories- faith being more valued than facts.
Mr. Weigel's argument is crippled by his fundamental errors of assumption. This is the inevitable consequence of the circular "logic" that theology must utilize in order to predetermine the desired outcome and then reason backwards to the necessary assumptions.
October 28, 2007 8:56 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 28, 2007 20:56
So, I mean, really... Christian *intellectual restrictions,* and ideas that perhaps one can somehow live by thinking that if a book or authority convinces you the earth is flat, or that mice don't, *ahem* have sex, that the idea must override reality...
Well, this may have *shaped and retarded the process of science,* but it didn't *invent* science. It just couldn't hold it back.
I mean, sooner or later, someone's gonna get piqued enough to drop a softball and bowling ball and say, 'Look, already!' despite the ever-present death threats if you publish the observation, but that doesn't mean the people didn't have any kind of science before Christianity came up with it... in fact, people that built the great cathedrals didn't understand Pythagoras, they just had some string handed down to them with knots to represent proportions.
It's had influences: even atheists have a tendency to see the world as though it really must be comprehensible by a hypothetical human-like Newtonian mechanistic intelligence, ... this is what hung even Einstein up at the point of 'God Does not play dice' as rendering certain realities unacceptable to look at:
Western thought as is is very good at analyzing things, ...yet utterly terrified of looking at bigger pictures. And usually ignored when it tries to.
We have some neat science... when we can treat things like a machine: we're just starting to get better at seeing systems and interactions and uncertainties, and even our own psychologies and instincts... And, it's precisely this development which *really* seems to cheese off the Christian fundamentalists... they have a certain idea that 'reason' is a talisman... Taboo if not used in certain ways, but otherwise 'power not to be questioned...'
People want to deny reason in support of a Bible because that's how they are taught they must deal with a universe that's *actually* bigger than us. Demand that a book which says it isn't bigger than us, *makes* us bigger than it, yet not needing to know.
People want to *feel* they know, but are too often afraid to learn.
And that's where a certain divide happens.
October 28, 2007 7:20 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 28, 2007 19:20
Well, I wouldn't apologize too hard, Norrie... in many ways Christianity's influence on science has everything to do with *destroying darn near everything but Aristotle,* who, at least in the forms we've had pass through history, was taken as being useful for advocating things like a unitary authority to the universe, the idea of reason outweighing observation, (good as he was at reason, he decided things like 'Mice are filthy, dirt is filthy, therefore vermin spontaneously generate from filth,')
And things like, 'Heavier objects fall faster,' something Galileo nearly got barbecued for saying, 'No, dude, lookit this!'
Christianity's basic... *enshrining* of Aristotle and company, while destroying other schools of thought that not only knew the Earth wasn't flat, but calculated her circumference to within a few hundred miles of error from shadows...
May have *shaped* the development of a certain *kind* of science, but also basically made Aristotle (with the exception of the mysteriously-nearly-completely- 'lost' Poetics)
....a sort of subsidiary 'revealed truth' that also held science *back* for more than a thousand thousand crucial years, doubly-suffering for the *loss* of the understandings of millenia before, which, though some has been rediscovered since, was simply made *inaccessible* to even the most sincere scholars.
As I said before, crediting Christianity for inventing science is like crediting it for inventing *art* just cause it presided over the Renaissance.
In art, really, the Renaissance is widely-credited with having begun with someone daring to paint Pagan Gods, even if the Church held some of the purse-strings.
October 28, 2007 6:57 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 28, 2007 18:57
"But that there is no inherent conflict between the truths revealed by science and the truths about creation and his intentions in creating revealed by the God of the Bible is the simple fact of the matter."
Egads, do you actually realize you're insane, or do you somehow deny it? I'm not trying to insult you, you really do appear to be insane. A simple 6th grade reading of the definition of science would show you why.
Why are there dozens of religious authors on this site trying desperately to tie religion to science? Give it up, there is no room in science for superstition, talking snakes and donkeys, zombies, magic trees... Mr. Weigel is a lunatic.
October 28, 2007 5:25 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 28, 2007 17:25
Bgone,
How did you get so brainwashed in "satanism"??
October 28, 2007 5:13 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 28, 2007 17:13
Good Grief, Charlie Brown! Hoisted by their own Petard to the canard! The Christians invented Science? What were those Greeks doing before the good Jesus showed up? Not to mention the Chinese, the Egyptians, the Indians, the Japanese, the Aztecs, the ….
History would show that Christians were opposed to the basic idea of Science, their God revealed all truths to his priests! The Christian nations were good at one thing, inventing new and better ways to kill and torture their enemies and often their own! That tradition continues, George and his merry band of Christians have depleted Uranium ammunition, rockets, and bombs which keep on killing for several million years, new and more clever nuclear weapons, MOABs, intelligence mines, cluster bombs, biological defense weapons(?), remote controlled weapons, Smart(?) bombs, you name it and by God, we are willing to use them too…to protect our way of life (60% of the world’s resources for consumption; converting the world’s natural wealth to zeros in a computer bank statement, etc.).
Yep, Christians have a lot of claim on the advancement of scientific understand, yes sur’e.
October 28, 2007 4:55 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 28, 2007 16:55
Mary Cunningham,
Like Henry James and, I'm sure, many others, I thoroughly enjoyed your last post about history and the R.C. Church. My family found it delightful too.
Did I really say all those things? I'm not even sure I knew them.
And who's Clovis? Did he have cloven hooves? You make him sound as if he did.
For new readers of these posts: Mary C. makes it sound as if I put my Antichrist costume on every Halloween and keep it ready in the closet for quick use during the rest of the year.
She used to call me an atheist, but I objected and may finally have persuaded her to think of me as an agnostic Buddhist sympathizer. Of course Buddhists are atheists so she may still think of me that way.
AN IRISH CONUNDRUM AND FAMILY PARTY:
Mary Cunningham has Irish Roman Catholic forebears.
My wife has Catholic Irish ancestors who somehow got mixed up with,or intermarried with, Scots-Irish Protestants, and her whole line evolved into staunch Protestants and has remained such.
I have Scottish ancestors whom Cromwell planted into Ulster and who became Northern Ireland Protestants. I think at least one of them was a member of The Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland.
Terry evidently has an Irish Catholic heritage.
So are we all one big happy family carrying on humorous banter, or are we still fighting the religious wars of Ireland? I don't know.
Anyway you all have my best wishes, even Mary C.
October 28, 2007 4:14 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 28, 2007 16:14
Norrie
thanks for the Frost reminiscence.
he was consistent in creating his Country Wit persona, weren't he?
best
HJ
October 28, 2007 3:38 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 28, 2007 15:38
Henry James,
"The Marriage of Mary and Terry
"(let's get rid of Joseph)"
*******************************
Henry, you've undoubtedly heard this before and know that Robert Frost beat you to it:
After completing his talk at Amherst College, a minister of religion asked Frost how religion had influenced his poetry.
Frost replied:
"Mary had a little lamb.
His name was Jesus Christ.
God the Father was the ram,
But Joseph took it nice."
Regards.
October 28, 2007 3:27 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 28, 2007 15:27
Thank you Henry - you devil you! Since Ireland is my spiritual and ancestral birthplace I hope to make it there in this lifetime. I may have to take a boat because flying these days is worse than getting beaten with a rubber hose, as the saying goes. I have a certain fondness for the aged Catholic churches of my childhood and am certain Ireland has many worthy of a visit - not to mention pubs full of Guiness, but that's not the religion we're discussing here....lest it be the Celtic in us all!
Best, Terry
October 28, 2007 3:24 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 28, 2007 15:24
Concerned The Christian Now Liberated:
I'm sure you meant to say, "Even though religions have been upgraded many time, they currently have no citations and appears to have been created by a devil aka a demon of the demented." Since I know, have faith you don't like to appear to be an ignorant ass, not even know as little as Satan is spelled with a capital S and is not a demon and be uneducateable...
Correct! And the Devil, (see how respectful of faith I am spelling Devil with a capital D) is identified, http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul has the true and full story of the "devil aka a demon of the demented." His name is Lucifer, the supernatural being, (god to pagans) in the burning bush that Moses made the deal with to create all three great faiths with their thousands of spur faiths, (from which you are now liberated?).
And, there are OFFICIAL Roman Catholic Church pictures for the illiterates to muse. I wonder if "George Weigel [is] a Catholic theologian and Senior Fellow of Ethics and Public Policy Center in Washington" would like to deny those pictures are official or add that they are actually photographs taken at the time of the actions illustrated? I thought not. Crooks never testify for the prosecution.
October 28, 2007 12:47 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 28, 2007 12:47
Religion: based on ancient (or more recent, in the case of communism) writings and a fervent BELIEF (it is no more than that) that they reveal truth. Pointing to scripture as proof (a la Moody and Homesower) is a completely worthless exercise. This really is not debatable.
Science: based on observation, questioning, experimentation, and provisional conclusion. Repeat enough times in enough controlled ways, and the conclusions bear enough weight to become a theory. (and I mean "theory" in the proper scientific context. That is, a large set of data and a contextual framework that present overwhelming evidence for a general truth, even if not every tiny detail is yet understood.)
Can scientists and theists work together for the common good? In my experience, yes, as long as they focus on shared goals, and not on shared motivations.
Theists - don't try to convert your scientific partners during the project. I realize you see this as a responsibility, but knock off the preaching for a while (that includes prayers for success of the project, etc.). You'll only lose your partners.
Scientists - realize that if the theists are working with you on a goal of actual significance (ie global warming, fighting hunger, etc.), their heart is in the right place, even if their rationale may seem a bit twisted. Again, don't debate motivation. Debate only how to achieve the project's goals.
Sometimes, the bottom line in mutual respect is simply deciding that certain topics will not be discussed in the course of a professional relationship.
October 28, 2007 12:19 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 28, 2007 12:19
The Marriage of Mary and Terry
(let's get rid of Joseph)
You two have risen to new heights of literary inventiveness, says America's greatest literary critic.
I think the two of you should get married and write books together. Your dialectic might make you even more engaging.
Kind of like James Carville and Mary Matalin.
Seriously, very engaging posts from both of you.
Mary: I am going to submit yours to Wikipedia.
October 28, 2007 12:15 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 28, 2007 12:15
Bgone,
Your website still has not been upgraded i.e. it currently has no citations and appears to have been created by a satan aka a demon of the demented.
October 28, 2007 11:34 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 28, 2007 11:34
Mary C -
Greeting! There were no snakes in post-glacial Ireland, so what Patrick expunged were the pagan Druids and their divine symbol of the snake
(Ouroboros) as representing life, creation, the cosmos, etc. That snake gets around - first
the Garden of Eden and now Ireland!
No doubt Patrick (a Gaul) was a popular figure and generated certain myths. He was alleged to have taught the concept of the Trinity by employing the 3 leaf clover in order to overcome competition from the more prevelant Arian Christian (non-trinitarian) view of that day (mid-5th century).
Well of course the trinitarians won out there, but how about a 4 leaf clover as a symbol of the cross, or perhaps the ancient Egyptian Ankh?
Now there's a symbol - signifying everything from immortality to fertility, divinity, and the cosmic creation - but alas, the Ankh is a pagan and neo-pagan symbol. Still, the cross means the same thing in a round about way, doesn't it?
And the 4 leaf clover still signifies good fortune. There are indeed curious mysteries and esoteric connections revealed in the Pythagorean (pagan) world of numbers after all.
Human symbology may change hands, but as Carl Jung pointed out, as part and parcel of the human psyche religious symbols have universal meaning - despite alterations in form and context. And anyway, the Irish have always had a love/hate relationship with the Catholic church....interesting to note that the roots movement is strong in Ireland, with the preservation and use of Gaelic in a number of contexts (music is the one I know best) - and honoring the ancient Celtic traditions and symbols (the Celtic knot is everywhere).
I gather St. Patrick has to share the limelight with his pagan predecessors these days??
Love those Druids!
all the best ----
October 28, 2007 10:34 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 28, 2007 10:34
Mary Cunningham:
Incomplete! You left out the fact that Rome fell less than 100 years after becoming a "Christian Nation." That's probably not significant in todays world where only "born agains" are qualified to hold public office.
October 28, 2007 9:40 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 28, 2007 09:40
Homesower:
Thank God all is known. Why do we need a conference on global warming or anything for that matter? The answers are all in the Bible. Just call Pat Robertson and get the answer if you can't read.
http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul Maybe we should thank Devil all is known? We do all agree on what the Bible says and what it means, no interpretation needed? The law of gravity needs no interpretation.
I see, you're a Bible "literalists." You have faith the science books are hoaxes and the Bible is the real science while scientists have faith the Bible is a hoax and the science books have the truth, as best we can understand the inter workings of nature.
You didn't leave much for scientist to say at any joint effort did you? I guess we could say you're right and we're wrong. Is that what you want?
Yep, it's time for science and religion to come together. Besides God created the universe and made man by breathing life into a statue, like frosty the snow man putting on that magic hat, what else do I need to know? Come to church and find out?
How can I test your "theory" in the laboratory? Laboratories are unnecessary since all is known? I thought so.
I hope you never end up like Michael Fox and need stem cells to live. You've condemned him to death without a trial you know. I see. That's why preachers hang around hospitals and nursing homes, effect cures to everything using science especially large estates.
Where do I send the money so you'll let me die in peace.
October 28, 2007 8:20 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 28, 2007 08:20