All Comments (29)

Dr. Taylor has been right about our faith for over 66 years of proclaming the Good News of Jesus Christ. I am glad that Dr. Taylor's statement has caused such a stir in the minds of the the readers. Thank you Dr. Gardner Taylor for making your faith know to others all of these years. Many lives have been changed by the faithfulness of the proclamation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Keep on keeping on.

When all is said and done, Dr. Taylor's statement is still an eloquent and inspirational expression of his faith in Jesus Christ and I don't see how one can sensibly argue that another person's faith makes no sense. Apparently, it makes complete sense to him and to all others who may share his belief. So why spend valuable time and energy trying to disprove the veracity or the logic of Dr. Taylor's belief. Bottom line, "faith" is the principal foundation upon which a person's religious beliefs rests regardless of the words or anagolies used to articulate those beliefs.

Season's Gratin's to yer Richard, Reason and Phaedrus!

http://www.venganza.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/fsmcard.jpg

Peace, peace where there is no peace.

Where on earth do you see peace?

God of the gap? There is no gap. The doctrine of "gap" taught in institutions does not exist. God will always exist, simply because God created man and not man God.

It is true that man has attempted to create God in their {man's}image. However, it is not so. God has created man in his image.

The fear of God is the beginning of faith. And the keeping of His commandments is the follow-through. That is where faith is built.

The man who says in his heart there is no God is a fool. And who would bother to reason with a fool. So, this is to those who are believers.

God, Jesus Christ says he comes in the volume of the Book. It is truly written of Him. And to understand the Word would help you to understand the Father.

Jesus Christ, the son who came in the name of the Father, Jesus, speaks the Word of the Father. The faith is doing or keeping the Word. The reward is possibly entering the Kingdom of God. That's the thing you have not seen.

What is the whole duty of man? To keep his commandments.

Like the apostle asked, what will his reward be if he obeyed? The apostle is dead and buried. His reward will be realized, like the rest of us.

If you have any understanding, you can answer this question. For the faithless, or the confused, you answer "Heaven". All the Righteous are in the grave, so what was the faith of Abraham, Job, Noah, Isaiah, all the prophets and the Apostles?

Certainly, not Heaven, not God's heaven. Jesus Christ is sitting on the right hand of the Father. Not Job, the Apostles and none other. So, when will they be rewarded.

You are confused on earth because you follow the doctrines of men. Those doctrines will not bring you to everlasting life.

And no doctrine that teaches, you are going to Heaven, is of the Word of the God of the Bible.
The Jesus of the bible tells you, in the end even the Father will bring DOWN new Jerusalem. So, where is your faith? Where is your reward?

Question:Would the belief,God in the flesh(Jesus)be accepted so widely,if the image of Jesus was a Black Man?

1. Say: He is God,the One.
2. God is He on Whom all depend.
3. He begets not, nor was He begotten.
4. And there is none co-equal or comparable unto him.

Quran :112

16. Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.
17. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.
18. She said: "I seek refuge from thee to ((Allah)) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah."
19. He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
20. She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
21. He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed."
22. So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.
23. And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!"
24. But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): "Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee;
25. "And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee.
26. "So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man, say, 'I have vowed a fast to ((Allah)) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into not talk with any human being'"
27. At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!
28. "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"
29. But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"
30. He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah. He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;
31. "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;
32. "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;
33. "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!
34. Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
35. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.
36. Verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight.
Quran: chapter Mary

16. Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.
17. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.
18. She said: "I seek refuge from thee to ((Allah)) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah."
19. He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
20. She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
21. He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed."
22. So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.
23. And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!"
24. But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): "Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee;
25. "And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee.
26. "So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man, say, 'I have vowed a fast to ((Allah)) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into not talk with any human being'"
27. At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!
28. "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"
29. But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"
30. He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah. He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;
31. "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;
32. "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;
33. "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!
34. Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
35. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.
36. Verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight.
Quran: chapter Mary

To all the good "Christians" praying for me:
    You had better pray to the Devil. I don't think your prayers to "God" are going to do any good, because I have told "God" I don't believe in "him" or "her."* But anyway, you keep plugging for me. At least I do admire your "Christian" charity.
    *There is the story of the man who went to Heaven, returned to earth, was pestered by people who wanted him to tell them what God looks like, at first refused on the ground that it would set back humanity by thousands of years, but at last relented under pressure and said: "Okay, but don't say I did not warn you. SHE is a NEGRO."

Arrr, Reason, methinks I spy one o’ me kin. It be three year ago I were touched by His noodly appendage, an’ I be a’wearin’ me pirate rig ever since. Close yer gunports an’ sheath yer cutlass, fer the “proof o’ the negative” bilgewater will be doggin’ us like seagulls ‘round a skow ‘till all the seven seas be runnin’ dry. Arrr.

comment:

"The conduct of life is based on “belief,” key to everything from this lofty, central article of our Christian faith, down to the confidence that at a traffic signal each motorist will obey the red or green light, or that the label on a drug or grocery item is true."

Respectfully, these are two different belief sets. One is based on a string of beliefs none of which can be verified -- the bible, the meaning of Jesus, etc. The second is based on interaction and experience in the existential world. Verification is easy, simply close your eyes and drive through a red light, or disregard the warning label on a drug.
Neither set of beliefs is "true" however.

A have loving and peaceful Christmas, Rev. Taylor.

Pastafarianism. Is that like Italian food with a beat? Count me in!

"Because you claim God doesn't exit doesn't mean He doesn't. Because you can't see Him doesn't eliminate His existence. Do you have any proof whatsoever that God doesn't exist?"

I cannot wait until this argument goes away. Just because it cannot be proven that something doesn't exist, does not mean that its existence is equally as likely as its non-existence. And yet this "you-can't-prove-it!" argument always seems to be used as one of the key defenses of religion.

Pastafarianism, anyone?

Mr. Wolfe:

I hope you read Jim Tull's comment, above. He gave you evidence. I have the same evidence to offer. God changed me from a selfish, angry person into a loving, generous person. And, it's happening to people all around you.

We also have the same witness from those who knew Jesus personally two thousand years ago. You deny He ever existed, but we have their witness, and the witness of people who knew them and saw the courage they had to face death for their faith.

I add my name to the list of those who are praying for you. Maybe that's why you're here on this page!

Burton,
You wrote, "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "UNSEEN EVIDENCE." Can I therefore infer that you don't exist because I don't see you? How ludicrous! Because you claim God doesn't exit doesn't mean He doesn't. Because you can't see Him doesn't eliminate His existence. Do you have any proof whatsoever that God doesn't exist?

I can personally vouch for the fact that He does exist, if only in the fact that my life was changed dramatically by doing as the Bible says to do: I accepted Jesus as my Savior and yielded my life to God. When that happened my whole life, my mindset and my habits changed. I can attest to the fact that this once-a-lowlife, mean person has become a new person...and just because I took God at His word. I don't blame you for being leery of Christians, Burton; Christianity has gotten so watered-down by the money-driven mega-churches and other factors that you really can't see the difference between Christians and others that was once so evident. You see in a lot of "Christianity" the lives of people trying to "get ahead" rather than people serving others.

Please consider this: as one does attempt to please God in what (s)he says and does, this person's life IS changed greatly. I'm sure you've seen at least one life that has been changed by God. When one gives his/her life to God, what drives this person is changed, and, therefore, so are this person's motivations, actions are changed. This might even result in a total change of carreer if this person sees that (s)he can't please God in his/her current job.(S)he has learned what love really is. I can't prove to you that God exists, nor can anybody else, but those who have witnessed the changes in me and others have seen God's love at work. I'm *very far* from being a perfect person, but my goals have changed and I now live for Him. I only hope those that have seen these changes in me realize why. A changed life is sometimes the only evidence of God some people notice.

Burton, He has given you enough evidence through science, creation and His people's changed lives that He does exist. It's up to you to decide whether you will accept this evidence or not. I wish you well.

The title, "Faith Gives Substance to Unseen Evidence" sounded so absurd as a single sentence that I had to see what Mr. Taylor meant. After reading the piece I think it should say, "Faith Fills in the Gaps for the Lack of Evidence."

Burton, you're right that the phrase, "unseen evidence" is oxymoronic. The Latin e- "from" + videns "to see" means what is "evident" is out there for all to see. That's why it's used in court. You don't seem angry to me, more frustrated and bewildered. Me too. I've found it helps to take deep, slow breaths. Nice website.

Patty, your suggestion that those without faith will not understand unless they do have faith sounds circular to me, but I'm not a skilled enough logician to figure out why. That whole Louis Armstrong "Man, if you have to ask what it is, you'll never know" approach to explaining faith to the faith-free is a cop-out. Don't use solid world terms like substance and evidence while talking to solid world-oriented people unless you can explain what you're talking about. I'm sincerely glad that your faith has substance and gives sustenance to you, although your meaning of the word substance is a mystery. --Unless I just stumbled across it.... You sincerely believe everyone is a unique image of the divine, and that's very gracious and beautiful. So I guess that the divine doesn't really mind that a large portion of it's images don't believe in the divine.

Phaedrus, ditto to your take on the Griffiths quote. Having cleansed myself of all faith and belief I have become happier than ever before.

In other words, I have faith because it is useful to me, in an emotional sense.

As for the Bede Griffiths quote, every non-believer living a happy life is a living refutation.

Perhaps this is one of the divides between the major belief systems (god vs the godless), on this site: I cannot seem to believe in something because it would make me feel better. Sometimes I might even like to, but I can't. I seem to care too much about what "is," as opposed to what I might like there to be. Man is uncomfortable with uncertainty. We engage in all manner of creative gap filling to address the mysteries that confront us. And man continues to chip away at those mysteries, chipping away at the home turf of the supernatural and filling it with the fruits of our reason. Only to find additional questions, additional uncertainty. The dilema is this: do you short circuit the anxiety of what you do not yet understand with the escape of th supernatural?

Burton: "Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." (NIV) It is understandable that having little or no faith yourself that you just don't get it. Is that why you seem so angry at those of us that do? I believe Jesus is the son of God and my faith has substance for me. It also provides me with sustenance. Bede Griffiths said ". . . to discern the divine will beneath all the events of daily life and to adhere to it with one's own will is the source of all happiness." I believe every person is a unique image of the divine and, for me, that includes you. That's faith! Peace.

    I continue to be amazed by the statements of the panelists and the ignorance that is demonstrated by the comments on the statements. Would you people please tell me how "faith" can give "substance" to anything? "Faith" is a concoction of the mind, a concept, a belief, some vision that is conjured up from a person's imagination. Nothing that is not matter can be a "substance." To be a "substance," whatever it is you are talking about has to be a MATERIAL THING. And how in the world any sane, rational, intelligent person can say that "faith" provides "substance to unseen evidence" is more than I can understand. Get this straight, Gardner, and everybody else posting your absurd comments: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "UNSEEN EVIDENCE." For there to be evidence, whatever it is MUST be either something that is materially observable by anyone or something that was materially observed by an eyewitness whose testimony can be verified as accurate and truthful. "Faith" is neither a material object nor the description of something witnessed by someone whose testimony can be verified as accurate and truthful. Plain, simple logic should tell you that something "unseen" cannot be testified to, that in order to be testified to by a reliable witness it must have been something that could be seen. Faith cannot be seen by either the person who expresses the faith or by anyone else. Faith is something generated in the mind. It is not matter. Hence, it cannot be said to provide "substance" to "unseen evidence." NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING, can provide "substance" to "unseen evidence," since nothing that is unseen can ever be evidence. For substance to be given to anything by either of the two possible methods, it MUST be something which HAS BEEN or CAN BE seen. No "faith" of any kind has ever been SEEN. Nor CAN it ever BE seen. If Gardner Taylor and all of you applauding his nonsense cannot understand all of this, then you need to go back to school and take courses in the meaning of language, remedial reading, and elementary logic and reasoning.

Victoria,

Saul's summary analysis is that Jesus was either "ignorant or a liar." He bases this on "contradictions" he has found in the Bible. If Saul is trying to prove that Jesus was ignorant or a liar, then using the Bible to do so is circular, no? It assumes that the basis for belief in Jesus must rest on the the Bible as an accurate historical record. Disproving your number one, does not prove that Jesus is a liar, ignorant, not the Son of God, etc. I hope this is clear.

If he is basing his argument on your number 2 (which is what most scholars believe), then the "contradictions" in the Bible he points to are perfectly understandable, no? Most scholars accept that the Bible is a collection of "divinely inspired" recollections of events, not the direct verbatim word of God. (In my mind, this takes nothing away from its power).

Bottom line, such "contradictions" cannot prove or disprove whether Jesus was the Son of God (the original question) if such a belief, as Rev. Taylor says, is ultimately based on "faith". I fail to see any logical flaw in my argument.

VERITAS- How is this s a blunder?

there are 2 options

1) the bible is the word of god
2) the bible is NOT the word of god, but
as you state "simply oral teachings, not historical accounts.

saul was clearly basing his post on the first- the literal word of god- which is what most(not all)
christians believe.
he is simply saying that Jesus(ata) made statements incongrous with the OT- which he had access to (presumably). that would be the definition of contradiction, wouldnt it?

would you prefer he just made a subjective opinion instead of using the bible to contradict the words of Jesus(ata)?

what other means should he employ?

also you assume that hes interested in proving the unprovable postitve and negative(existence-non-existence of god- divinity-non-divinity of Jesus(ata)
when he clearly hasnt attempted it.

be logical in your critique- i could criticize you by saying you will write on the elusive nature of faith- but until you do- its all baseless conjecture.

the assumption you are starting with is not the assumption he was addressing.

I'm so glad Mr Taylor used the analogies of the traffic signal and the drug label. There are many people who are crippled or dead for having had unquestioning faith in those two things.

Once when my older brother, who is a Christian, and I were talking about faith, I asked him if he looks both ways when he walks across a busy street, or does he close his eyes, say "Praise the Lord," and walk blindly across. To my astonishment, he answered that he knows he should to the latter method, but his faith just isn't strong enough.

Since I love my brother, I'm really glad his faith is not that strong.

Saul2000 commits a classic blunder that unfortuneately many commit without realizing it. Saul uses certain portions of the Christian Bible to "disprove" other portions. Many also cherry-pick "contradictions" when trying to "prove" flaws with religion, Judeo-Christianity, Jesus, God, etc. Of course, these are simply oral teachings written down finally many years after they first came into being and are not meant to be "accurate" historical accounts of anything.

Furthermore, people like Saul2006 are still left with proving the negative (Jesus was not divine, God doesn't exist, etc.) which of course can never be done. So this brings us back to the point of the scholar that the fundamental issue is "belief" or faith. This means taking an incomplete or even contradictory picture and doing one's best to find an answer that suits them - all the time knowing that one can never really know for sure. That's the irony of and the beauty of faith.

I agree, all those examples are certainly beliefs. However, they are not always true. There are times when someone at the traffic light ignores, or does not see, the red light and drives through. There are also times when the label on an item in the store is incorrect. It does helps us in sorting out the world to take a "best guess" at the truth, but there are many times when we are wrong, and we should always be willing to use reason to adapt based on new knowledge and additional information. One thing to ponder...Do you believe in individuals stopping at a red light enough that you just drive right through every time, or do you take the extra second to look at your surroundings when you go through the light?

Jesus, loyal spokesman for truth that he was here on earth, said “He that hath seen me hath seen the Father” (Gospel of John 14:9)

_____________________________________________________
And yet Jesus said only God knows the time
And he also said why call me good, when only the father is good.

LUKE 4:24
24
And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country

And yet anyone that Has read the Bible Knows that at least 2 prophets-Samuel and Nathan were not only given HONOR in their own country at their own time BUT by THEIR KINGS

13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven ( compare this to below from 2 Kings)

2 Kings 2:1
And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.

Jesus said that he was one of the Lords mentioned in the saying " The Lord said to my Lord" which appears in Psalm 110

1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. ( a Priest like Mel- not the Messiah or greatest- or My Heir,)

The above seems to inidicate that Jesus was ignorant or a liar.

But you are invited to visit
http://www.religionquestioned.com which has an offer tro shut down based on false information taught Christians about O.T. Messiah message

Reverend Taylor:

That's as good as I've ever heard it said, however. Could a fiction writer create such a person? Do philosophers have the ability to create philosophy that good? To me, your philosophy is a step above Jesus philosophy. We need more people with your kind of philosophy. Merry Christmas and happy new year.

"believe that Jesus Christ was and is the Son of God because of the witness of scripture, the witness of my heart, and the witness of two thousand years of Christian experience."

Please define this "witness" that you speak of. I am not familiar with this particular sensory experience.

Hebrews and John on the divinity and better covenant of Christ. Simply can't beat that!

Well spoken, and so concise. Thank You!