HOUSTON — On the eve of the crucial Texas primary, the place to be seen was not at a campaign rally. It was inside the country’s largest church.
Sunday, former President Bill Clinton, daughter Chelsea Clinton and their Secret Service entourage attended Lakewood Church, whose 47,000 members praise God in a converted sports stadium, once home to the Houston Rockets basketball team.
I decided to drop by a Lakewood service, not because of the Clintons – I learned of their presence that morning after they’d cleared out – but because I was curious. In a country populated by Spanish missions, churches converted from houses, quaint New England-style chapels, storefront churches, temples, synagogues, large modern worship complexes, and metal warehouses with crosses and hand-painted signs on them, how do people worship God in a sports stadium? Who goes there? Why are megachurches so popular? What draws people to Lakewood’s message?
Parking my rental car in Lakewood’s underground garage, I followed a stream of churchgoers. They were all startlingly young – in their 20s, 30s or early 40s. As a group, they were ethnically diverse. Some carried Bibles, held hands or pushed baby strollers the length of the underground garage, up a concrete ramp and onto a street where Lakewood employees kept foot traffic moving and offered rides.
The church still resembles a sports stadium. Attending Lakewood felt a lot like attending a concert or civilized sporting event. A sea of multi-colored clothing advancing in an orderly fashion toward the seats, the expectation of the main event, a certain group mentality that comes with identifying oneself as a sports fan or a churchgoer.
Inside the glass entrance was a guest services counter. Volunteers with Lakewood name tags greeted the congregation warmly with a handshake and “Good morning. God bless you.” They were stationed at the door, at either end of the escalators, and throughout the building, and I must have shook hands with five or six people on my way up the escalators toward the stadium entrance. On my way to my seat, I noticed a “crying room” with rocking chairs and beds, a child care center, a bookstore, kiosks for various church programs and for discreet donations, and a donor wall etched with names.
The stadium was dark, with dark blue carpeting and colored lighting. Taped music played over the sound system as people filed through the doors. I took a seat in an empty section and was quickly surrounded by people -- a young white family with grandparents and a toddler on my left, a white Hispanic couple with four young children in front of me, and a young African-American couple to my right.
Professional lighting highlighted sections that were full and downplayed areas of the stadium that were not. Waterfalls cascaded down two rock formations on either side of the choir. A large golden globe sculpture, visible on the television broadcasts, rotated behind the stage. Churchgoers got a close-up of the pastor, ministers and performers via huge screens above the stage. Swooping camera angles captured the magnitude of the standing, singing and waving crowd under the spotlights, giving the viewer an impression of traveling above a canyon of people. These were interspersed with close-ups of the musicians, pastors, and people singing, crying, or clapping in the crowd.
To get an idea of what Lakewood might be like, I had picked up Pastor Joel Osteen’s new book "Become a Better You" in the Charlotte airport, and leafed through it on the flight down. The book was a feel-good mixture of Norman Vincent Peale meets Anthony Robbins. The religious message was there, but understated, I thought.
For the first 15 or 20 minutes, upbeat music pumped up the crowd. Musicians took the stage with microphones and guitars, backed by a professional sound system and more instruments behind the stage. The chorus dressed in black or blue, fanning out to take up the benches.
Pastors Joel and Victoria Osteen are young and tastefully dressed in suits with super white smiles and well-coiffed but not overdone hair. Their message – the message that thousands came to hear – was full of positive catch phrases: “Destined to win,” “The best is yet to come,” “All things are possible,” “Discover the champion in you,” “Press through obstacles,” “Victors, not victims.” There was no raining down of hellfire and brimstone, no prolonged reading from the scriptures, no mention of sin or sinners that I heard. Instead, it felt very much like a motivational speaking rally, delivered in Christian language.
It was easy to see what was so attractive to young people like
19-year-old Jason Higgins, who attended Lakewood for the first time Sunday and described the experience as “amazing” and “really different.”
The grass farm worker from Brazoria, Texas, grew up in a Baptist church with a sterner, darker message.
“Here it’s more confidence to live a better life,” he said.
It would be easy but probably unwise to dismiss what’s happening at the largest church in the country and similar churches across the country as “evangelical lite,” part of the whole “feel good” megachurch trend that has drawn young people away from traditional churches in droves.
“I think that other people might not think it’s real because it’s so big, and it’s on TV,” said Lakewood member 29-year-old Ginger Battise, a customer service representative from Houston. “I tell them they should give it a try themselves.”
She said she grew up attending a non-denominational church that was part of the Assemblies of God but stopped going as a teenager when she lost interest. Her mother brought her family to Lakewood Church seven months ago. And they’ve been coming every Sunday since.
Battise likes Lakewood because Osteen is more like a motivational speaker. He doesn’t get lost in long diatribes, doesn’t endorse politicians or let them speak from the pulpit (though he welcomes them publicly if they attend his services, as he did the Clintons), and his message is easy to follow.
Hilario Rios, Battise’s fiancé, said he didn’t really grow up going to church. The 23-year-old warehouse worker found the sermons confusing. “Really, I didn’t understand what they were saying before,” he said.
“Since we started coming back, we’ve seen lots of positive changes in our lives,” said Battise. “We just recently bought a house, a new car. We’re getting married. I know it’s because of faith.”
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Comments (209)
AGUY7, you write that Joel offers community, but I do not understand what you mean by that. Could you define what you mean by community, and how Joel goes about achieving that? Also, how closely does your definition of community align with accepted definitions of community--such as sociologically speaking, or anthropologically speaking? And if not, is "community" the right word/definition for what Joel offers?
Remember please, that I like listening to Joel speak, but I am just a little skeptical, too.
March 10, 2008 8:51 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 10, 2008 08:51
To each his own, and my own is that Joel Osteen is a long "overdue" reflection of God's love to those that believe and trust in God.
The mentality of beating people down to bring about compliance in that belief is a falsehood and related to dictatorship concerning healthily self-development, spiritually, emotionally, and on a personal level.
That is what is wrong with our baby-boomer society Too many parents of the baby-boomers were mean, insensitive, afraid to show love, emotionally disconnected with their kids, and physically and emotionally abusive and lacked severely in praising their child and lifting them up. Now we think that everything and everyone has to be that way to be right, not so.
God is a loving God and Jesus is a friend that sticks closer then a brother and is not mean, insensitive, afraid to show love, emotionally disconnected, physically and emotionally abusive and lacking severely in praising those who believe and trust in him.
Joel Osteen’s way is not wrong it just doesn’t mirror what a lot of people are used to in a Christian setting or other setting. Change is good and healthy, so based on the following scripture where is Joel Osteen at fault?
Ephesians 4:22-24, (22) That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; (23) And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; (24) And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
March 9, 2008 12:43 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 9, 2008 12:43
Joel "Batting My Eyes" Osteen might as well be a Hallmark card or an AmWay salesman. No substance, no identifiable spirituality, no in depth biblical teaching, just a real pretty suit and a hoard of folks who like that crap.
March 9, 2008 11:11 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 9, 2008 11:11
Anonymous wrote, "Speaks pretty clearly."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
About what?
It does however reiterate just what my post said; he came to state a new church. Otherwise his coming was meaningless. And if the current system of practice was right then why the need for a new Church and Christ’s coming? Yes, for salvation to occur through the shed blood of Jesus but even after his crucifixion these religious groups did not accept Christ and the way to God is through him and without him we cannot be saved. The Catholic Church does not preach salvation and that you must be born again that is why they changed their bible and no longer use the KJV. You will never go into a Catholic church and hear Christ preached unto salvation and being born again.
The Catholic Church rendered worship to idols, they pray to Mary, saints, and their pope. Paul was much greater then the Pope but yet he acknowledge Jesus’ deity and that no one should be worshipped, knelt to, and prayed to but God and Christ. They have no alter call and never offer salvation through the saving of Christ at any Church service.
It is clear from scripture that the Catholic Church was a "religious" sect that Jesus came to abolish their way of practice. Religion is repetitive and a form and a ritual, Christianity is not. The Pharisees were a religious group that hated Jesus and were out to stop him from preaching the gospel. The Catholics are a religious group
Matthew 7:21 (21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. John 3:3 (King James Version)
John 3:3 (3) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 6:44-48, (44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (45) It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. (46) Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. (47) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. (48) I am that bread of life.
John 6:65, (65) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
March 9, 2008 8:32 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 9, 2008 08:32
Believer said: Christ came to begin a new ministry of Chrisitans, not Catholics. Catholics pratice a false doctrine, they worship idols, confess there're sins to a man instead of God, and have change the bible to make it concusive to their own belief.
Hmmm, you need to stick your nose in the Bible.
Matthew 16:
18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
Speaks pretty clearly.
March 8, 2008 5:53 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 8, 2008 17:53
Syzito, "Joel means well however his message will not bring anyone into the kingdom of heaven.You don't get there by feeling good about ourselves.You get there by believing the gospel message as the apostle Paul very well explains in his writings.This teaching Joel is not preaching because it is not politically correct in todays society to find fault in other peoples culture and belief system no matter how wrong they happen to be in their thinking.It is a message of feel-good-ism that will not bring anyone to salvation in Christ."
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"You don't get there by feeling good", I beg to differ God says in,
Nehemiah 8:10, (10) "Then he said unto them, Go your way, eat the fat, and drink the sweet, and send portions unto them for whom nothing is prepared: for this day is holy unto our LORD: neither be ye sorry; for the joy of the LORD is your strength." KJV,
March 8, 2008 12:26 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 8, 2008 12:26
Staggo Lee:
"Joel Osteen is a success because he's a sexy man. His schtick is mere the same-old, same-old"
I don't like Joel Osteen because he is sexy, he is short in stature & short men do not appeal to me. Except for one guy that is short I did give a "sexy" rating to & it was only because I revered him as one who stood for morals, was kind, caring, and sincere, but I found out that he was deceptive & sexually perverted. So no more of him.
But anyway I like Joel because he is sincere, caring, kind, & loves God. He is not ashamed to admit that he loves God nor is he ashamed to show emotion when the spirit of God touches his heart while he is preaching. His messages are consistent with scripture and he encorages people to strive to be their best. God sent Jesus so that we might have life and have it "more abundently," & Joel preachers on that belief.
Joel does preach salvation and that all must be saved to avoid hell. He also preaches living right before God & to strive for a christ-like walk.
It appears that he is a good husband & father and I respect him for the fact that he is not afraid to admit his love & devotion for his wife.
March 8, 2008 11:38 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 8, 2008 11:38
Joel means well however his message will not bring anyone into the kingdom of heaven.You don't get there by feeling good about ourselves.You get there by believing the gospel message as the apostle Paul very well explains in his writings.This teaching Joel is not preaching because it is not politically correct in todays society to find fault in other peoples culture and belief system no matter how wrong they happen to be in their thinking.It is a message of feel-good-ism that will not bring anyone to salvation in Christ.
March 8, 2008 11:00 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 8, 2008 11:00
Does anyone notice the distruction that comes to a person when he does not follow the ten commandments?
This country has been blessed in the past by God because the people honored God. The only way the country is going to survive is to honor God. Please note, very bad things started happening when people began to harden their hearts toward God.
Thank God we do have Christians left who are seeking God's face and who are praying for our country and non believers. The Bible instructs us to pray for our leaders. We must continue to also pray for our country. Only God can heal our country. Note what is happening in societies that do not honor God.
No man is perfect. But all men have a purpose. Joel is reaching people who otherwise might turn their backs on God. Disciples for God are not only in the pulpit. They are all over this country. Some have different ideas because we are different people. But we have the same belief that Jesus Christ died on the cross to save us from our sins. Research that.
If we study the Bible as indept as we study Shakesphere, Plato, Socrates,etc., then we will get to know this man called Jesus.
Pick up that Bible and read it. Ask God to show you what you need to see and what all the talk is about.
March 8, 2008 10:07 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 8, 2008 10:07
Joel offers community, something lacking in everyday American life. And he offers it on a big scale and in a palatable, pleasant format. His message is secondary to the opportunity for tribal bonding. It's interesting that his church is a former sports arena, because sports are the other venue for tribal gathering in America in 2008.
March 8, 2008 12:33 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 8, 2008 00:33
For those who are offended by the $200 seats, I say every church expects members to donate money. That Joel can demand $200 means he's the hottest ticket in town. He's another in the long line of American success stories. While traditional denominations are struggling, he's booming. I have to congratulate him on tapping into the zeitgeist. Is it spiritual? I don't know, I haven't watched or read him. I go to a small Episcopal church and sing in the choir. We get maybe 100 for the 11:15 service. 40,000? That's impressive. Maybe the attraction is the mass gathering. I attend church because it fills my need for community. Maybe Joel's parishoners are looking for community too and like their community big.
March 8, 2008 12:22 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 8, 2008 00:22
"It is your crutch and it's your religion that instructs you to embrace that crutch, thereby creating a never-ending cycle. The only question is will you ever beat your fellow man, who believes something different, over the head with your crutch. Bin Laden has. Pat Robertson has. David Koresh has. Unfortunately, Mike and Jill with their confidence are heading down this very same path." TruthShallSetUsFree
"I asked Mike what PROOF" TruthShallSetUsFree
No, we don't hear OURSELVES, WE HEAR THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO TESTIFIES TO US. I used to demand "proof" of God. That's an easy out. Listen if want to know 'truth' get out of your own mind and ego. Throughout history people who want 'proof' of 'truth' have been disappointed indeed. Intellectuals who live based on hearing (audibly), seeing, feeling, and touching, hence reducing God to their formula, is the PARADOXICAL IGNORANCE. Christ said that the cross is foolishness to the world (paraphrasing), and when Thomas demanded to 'put his fingers in Christ's nail prints', Christ did it FOR HIM, but said "blessed are those who DO NOT SEE AND STILL BELIEVE." So there will be no PROOF, just the fruition of faith. Christ said that believers will be sent THE HOLY SPIRIT (THE SPIRIT OF GOD) to prove what He has said is true. I've experienced this, Christ was true to His promise. I'm telling you, who demand proof, that what Christ said in scripture is true. There is something outside of me (The Holy Spirit) that testifies to the truth of the Gospel and it is EXACTLY what Christ said it would be. It's so real that it's beyond anything weconsider 'proof' in our own senses. I don't have to justify it to you, I know it. God isn't going to reveal Himself in a nice, neat little package that suits your demands. Why should He, HE CREATED YOU?
Tell me this, how can you prove to your children that you are their parent? Do the blood test, what does that mean? They are still taking a medical scientists word for it. It's not something they can see, feel, touch, or hear. How do you know that you came from your biological parent? Tell me please what your proof is other than YOU TAKING THE WORD OF A MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL FOR IT, or the TESTIMONY OF OTHERS WHO MAY HAVE WITNESSED THE BIRTH. Sorry but NO ONE CAN WITNESS CONCEPTION. So basically by FAITH you believe that your biological mother and father are truly that. What other proof is there other than the scientific testimony THAT YOU DID NOT DO YOURSELF....out of your own ignorance. All you 'INTELLECTUALS' out there have no idea how to read a genetic blood test. Yet you believe that your biological parents are yours. Your intellectualism is all theory based on your senses, otherwise you would be able to describe to us, in detailed laymans terms, that YOUR GENETIC MARKER LINES UP WITH THE PEOPLE WHO YOU SAY ARE YOUR PARENTS. Otherwise I'm not so sure you came from, genetically, is who you tell me or believe yourself. God doesn't have to justify Himself to you... He made you. If your child demanded 'PROOF' that they actually came from your loins, then I wish you luck with your proof. Yet you yourself know it's true don't you????... even if you can't satisfy the damands of your child's mandate of proof.
God makes the rules, He sets the standard. If you can't deal with that then that's your issue, not His. He didn't create you to prove anything to you...He created you to believe in faith that He is your Creator and His Son is the way to knowing that. Only in Christ was I sent the verification that the Father is real. That's my testimony and I won't apologize for it or feel a need to justify it to those who want me to prove it to them. Christ is for believer's only, IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IT THEN IT'S NOT FOR YOU. God demands that we believe first in His Son (on an authentic sincere level, not to prove anything)THEN HE SENDS THE VERIFICATION. Those who want to see and touch the Lord before they believe will be sorely disappointed and miss out on something very special indeed. Thanks.
March 8, 2008 12:01 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 8, 2008 00:01
Joel Osteen is a success because he's a sexy man. His schtick is mere the same-old, same-old
March 7, 2008 10:11 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 22:11
Dr. Fill, "Get real!: Religionism "is listed as a bonafide" mental illness."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Then leave it alone.
March 7, 2008 9:55 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 21:55
"If this does not sound like the Catholic Church you are living on another planet! There is one near you. And only one Church. Go there and ask for the Truth."
Christ came to begin a new ministry of Chrisitans, not Catholics. Catholics pratice a false doctrine, they worship idols, confess there're sins to a man instead of God, and have change the bible to make it concusive to their own belief.
Catholics practice religion, which is a "form and a ritual." Christianty practices becoming Christ-like through God's Holy Spirit. Jesus called the Catholics "men who confesses God bt their heart was far from him."
Basically, the Catholics religion is a form of a cult. They do not believe that you have toaccept Christ as your personal savior to be saved, nor do they believe that you must be born again.
March 7, 2008 9:52 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 21:52
Get real!: Religionism "is listed as a bonafide" mental illness.
March 7, 2008 9:50 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 21:50
Mr. Osteen belives in Christ, the real Christ, but he is not in the "true Church." But Christ himself said "who was not against us (the cause of Christ) even if they are slightly wrong, are for us" --and for Him. In some way. We should not be harsh. But be alert!
Heresy from Osteen? Perhaps. But at least he loves God above all things and does not seem to idolize himself like some televangelists. Perhaps he does "lead people to Christ," even with that weak "sinner's prayer" at the end of his shows.
But the Word of God and the Apostles and the ancient Church were clear: Acts 3 or 4 as I recall..."what must we do to be saved?" they ask; St. Peter said to them, 1. Repent and 2. be baptized, every one of you (you and your household, including slaves and children), in the authority of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins (baptism DOES something to you!); 3. and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit--that means the Holy Spirit Himself...again God will come live in you!
This promise is made to you and to your children (!)and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call (IT IS GODD AND RIGHT TO BAPTIZE CHILDREN!) He EXHORED THEM: 4. "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation. TURN FROM SIN. (Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand persons were added that day---PLUS WOMEN AND CHILDREN AND SLAVES). 5. They devoted themselves to the teaching of the apostles. THEY HAD AUTHORITY and power to teach! And to the communal life, (SHARING GOODS) to the breaking of the bread (THE EUCHARIST!)and to the prayers (the Liturgy-morning/midday/evening). Awe/Shock came upon everyone, and many wonders and signs were done through the Apostles. All who believed were together and had all things in common; Every day they devoted themselves to meeting together in the temple area and to breaking bread (this is the daily EUCHARIST!!) in their homes. They ate their meals with exultation and sincerity of heart, praising God and enjoying favor with all the people. Every day the Lord added to their # those who "were being saved." (A process not a one time prayer!)
If this does not sound like the Catholic Church you are living on another planet! There is one near you. And only one Church. Go there and ask for the Truth. And pray for those who love Christ like Mr. Osteen to see the Light and the true Body of Christ on earth.
March 7, 2008 5:31 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 17:31
GW, "Scripture is not evidence or "proof" to anything."
According to who??
It is listed as a bonafide creditable historic document proven by facts.
March 7, 2008 5:25 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 17:25
1st of all joel does not charge 200.00 to see him or to go to services at lakewood. 2nd he never asks for money or donations during his telecasts. if you new any thing about him or God forbid even watched him you would know that. 3rd. where does it say that you have to be poor to be a christian?
David wasnt poor, Soloman wasnt poor yet they were some of the bibles most wrote about christian figures.
Blake, try watching, you may get something out of it.
March 7, 2008 5:25 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 17:25
Scripture is not evidence or "proof" to anything.
March 7, 2008 5:14 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 17:14
truthshallsetyoufree, "Notice it says, "THIS is the disciple who testifieth of these things and WE know his testimony to be true." Jill, why would John refer to himself as "we" and "this"??"
"We" the Brethren, and "we" the believers, even a child could figure that one out.
March 7, 2008 4:57 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 16:57
truthshallsetyoufree, "Okay Jill, what evidence do you have that God is Christian???"
First let me say what a stupid question you have asked. It is clearly recorded in scripture that Christ was crucified, baptized by John the Baptist, and born of a virgin named Mary.
Historians have written and proven that Jesus walked the earth and taught "the kingdom of God is at hand," the same as John the Baptist did before he was beheaded.
History also recorded that Jesus professed to be the son of God and that he was the Savior which the prophet Isaiah foretold of his coming saying that he, Jesus would be born of a virgin and overcome Satan.
Don't forget, even though unbelievers dispute scripture it is still considered a creditable form of history.
March 7, 2008 4:53 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 16:53
truthShallSetUsFree:
"Do you people hear yourselves?? I asked Mike what PROOF he had that 1.1 billion muslims chose wrong and he responded by stating. "By God's word I can say they chose wrong". Are you kidding me??? That response is absolutely laughable. Mike, have you ever spoken to God?? Has God ever sent you a text message?? I'm not trying to be funny, I'm making a point.
This is for Believer and Mike and all of the rest of you that use the bible to answer rational questions. If I were muslim and I tried to convince you that Allah was the 1 true God, would you diminish my evidence if the only source that I had was the Koran???
And finally, I'd just like to point something out to all of you evangelical sheep. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John never met jesus. Did you know that??? The CATHOLIC CHURCH officially believes that and I'll take the word of a church founded a millenia ago over the words of various evangelical, "prosperity doctrine" preachers that refuse to allow the IRS to look at their revenue figures."
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What poof do you have that 1.1 billion muslims "haven't" choose wrong??? Can't wait to hear your response.
BTW Christians do not believe in the The CATHOLIC CHURCH or what it officially believes. They practice idol worship and put their priest in the place of God as far as forgiving sins, any questions?
March 7, 2008 4:43 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 16:43
The Bible says that those who believe the gospel are going to heaven. It is our job to believe. It is not our job to say what will happen to those that do not believe. That is hard to take for some.
The belief that I find really hard to take is to do the best you can to be the best person you can and God will decide if it was good enough to get in to heaven. How does that work??? So God wants us to live our entire lives with the uncertainty of heaven and with the possibility that we could fall just short and spend eternity in hell separated for He who is the source of everything that is good. What kind of compassionate God would do that???
March 7, 2008 4:17 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 16:17
Okay Jill, what evidence do you have that God is christian???
I tell you what, that might be asking too much of you. Give me whatever evidence you have on anything that might support your religious beliefs.
I'm trying to make this as broad as possible, because I'd like this discussion to continue.
One more thing Jill, do you believe that John wrote his gospel himself and that no one else ever wrote any portion of it?? I'm guessing you do. Do me a favor and open up a King James bible and flip to the last chapter of John. Notice it says, "THIS is the disciple who testifieth of these things and WE know his testimony to be true." Jill, why would John refer to himself as "we" and "this"??
What's hilarious is that I've literally NEVER met an evangelical that's noticed this or had their preacher point it out, yet I had it pointed out to me by my catholic school religion teacher in 10th grade. I wonder why that is.
March 7, 2008 4:10 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 16:10
Jill McCormack wrote:
There is actually more scientific evidence for creation than there is for evolution!
--------------------------------------------
Oh really?
I think that statement proves your ignorance. There are million pieces of evidence that point towards evolution, and modern biology is based on evolutionary theory.
Creationists should be mocked and scorned everywhere.
March 7, 2008 4:09 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 16:09
There is evidence if you want to see it. There is actually more scientific evidence for creation than there is for evolution! But you are right, I don't have proof for EVERYTHING I believe in but that is where faith comes in. Everyone has faith in something. Most people have faith in themselves I just chose to have faith in something bigger and better than me.
March 7, 2008 3:51 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 15:51
Another question Mike:
I'm sure that somewhere in the world, there's a muslim or hindu(or any other non-christian religion) version of mother Theresa. Essentially, a person that has done nothing but devote his or her life to helping the sick and poor. Is this person going to go to hell???
March 7, 2008 3:41 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 15:41
It's hard to understand why people can't just accept this man and his message for what it is. Everyone is not at the same level at the same time and everyone isn't into the fire and brimstone message. Not because it's not valid, because it most certainly is but because maybe were they are in their walk, they simply aren't ready. They are babes in Christ and because of that, you simply can't throw them to the wolves. They aren't ready to do battle, therefore, they will be eaten alive. As they grow in their faith and truly have a personal relationship with God, they will be ready to seek more of the fire and brimstone message. I watch Joel every week and enjoy the sermons very much.
I'm also very active in my local church which preaches more of a fire and brimstone message but at the same time, I can respect Joel and what he's doing.
March 7, 2008 3:38 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 15:38
Luke 10:21 (NCV) Then Jesus rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the people who are wise and smart. But you have shown them to those who are like little children. Yes, Father, this is what you really wanted.
Matthew 5:5 (NCV) They are blessed who are humble,
for the whole earth will be theirs.
March 7, 2008 3:33 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 15:33
All I can say is God will judge those. I don't believe we should be saying who's going to hell or not but the Bible is clear about exposing those who preach a false gospel. Joel Osteen seems nice enough and I'm not sure if he's intentionally setting out to do this but if he is called by God, things will change, hopefully.
March 7, 2008 3:26 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 15:26
Such a lot of energy being spent debating what amounts to one guys (Joel Osteen's) take on a myth.
March 7, 2008 3:24 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 15:24
Roger Clemens:
I don't want anyone to go to hell but the fact is many are going because they don't put faith in their creator. What grounds do you want Mr. Osteen to go to hell? For preaching a feel good message! Taken up collections when he speaks! Or because you feel he has done something seriously wrong! I don't know enough about him to wish him to go to hell. And even if I did I would not wish that on anyone. Christ says He is not will that any should perish but all should come to repentance.
If anyone has the right to wish anyone to hell it is Christ. But the scriptures says God demonstrated His love towards us in that; While we (the world of man)were yet still sinning Christ died for us.
March 7, 2008 3:22 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 15:22
Do you people hear yourselves?? I asked Mike what PROOF he had that 1.1 billion muslims chose wrong and he responded by stating. "By God's word I can say they chose wrong". Are you kidding me??? That response is absolutely laughable. Mike, have you ever spoken to God?? Has God ever sent you a text message?? I'm not trying to be funny, I'm making a point.
This is for Believer and Mike and all of the rest of you that use the bible to answer rational questions. If I were muslim and I tried to convince you that Allah was the 1 true God, would you diminish my evidence if the only source that I had was the Koran???
And finally, I'd just like to point something out to all of you evangelical sheep. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John never met jesus. Did you know that??? The CATHOLIC CHURCH officially believes that and I'll take the word of a church founded a millenia ago over the words of various evangelical, "prosperity doctrine" preachers that refuse to allow the IRS to look at their revenue figures.
March 7, 2008 3:05 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 15:05
People of faith are the equivalent of adults who still believe in Santa Claus.
Joel Osteen is disgusting, as is any preacher who makes money of the "flock".
I wish there was a hell for him to go to... I wish him the absolute worst.
March 7, 2008 2:55 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 14:55
Ignorance = Faith, "Religous faith, by its definition, requires a suspension of rationalism." Interestingly that statement is itself both illogical and irrational."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If ignorance=faith then are you saying that all those without Jehovah God that takes faith to believe in are "the intelligent ones?"
All religions are based on faith, Pagans believe the Earth is a God and that nature has many gods. Now how can all those that you claim are in the category of Ignorance = Faith be ignorant for having faith in a historical proven God such as Jehovah?
Especially when so called intelligent people believe and pray to soil, rock, and plants? What if anything can Pagans or any other religion outside of belief in Jehovah prove that their prayers/faith produce when the pray to soil, rock, and plants; such as Sarah's proof of conceiving when her husband Abraham was old and past the time to have sperm produce conception and her ability to deliver Isaac after menopause in biblical times?
March 7, 2008 2:33 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 14:33
hoobie:
"There have been studies that suggest a strong inverse correlation between religious belief and education and income."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What studies??
March 7, 2008 2:08 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 14:08
"Religous faith, by its definition, requires a suspension of rationalism." Interestingly that statement is itself both illogical and irrational.
Many eloquent books by probing, intellectual Christians have been written on the rational aspects of both Christianity and faith in general. To comment on them, once must first read what they have to say, as unexamined evidence makes an analysis scientifically unworthy.
Many people posit that faith and/or belief (when it comes to the so-called unseen world in which religion is thought to dwell,) depends on blindness--hence "blind faith."
Those who assail religion, or denounce the religious, themselves believe, based on a kind of faith in the unknown, that such persons must be shutting the doors of rationality and operating out of an anti-intellectual or uneducated perspective. Few would allow that religious belief comes about, or can come about, not on a blind and random (even desperate) leap, but because of empirical evidence--one's own experience--followed by the rational choice to follow that experience into deeper study and contemplative reflection which in turn can or does lead to deeper empirical evidence.
The driving need for atheists and or anti-religionists to focus their attention on assailing the religious for a host of imagined ills is telling. Most of all it tells of the role irrational faith plays in their life, all while they assail what they believe to be irrational faith in others. And that is evidence that is at once ironic, interesting and worthy of rational sociological examination---what is the cause of this fervor? What is the nature of such blind spots?
March 7, 2008 2:07 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 14:07
Truthshallsetyoufree, "The problem with all of you is confidence in your faith in the absence of evidence to support such confidence. Do you guys know who else is confident in their faith???"
The point in Christianity is faith, for without it we cannot please God as stated in Hebrews 11:6, "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
Would you want an intimate relationship with someone where trust did not exist? Faith is needed in any relationship. Without faith no one can be saved.
-Romans 10:8- 12, (8) But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: (9) That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (10) For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. (11) As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame. (12) For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, (13) for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
In any relationship people have to trust and believe one another. That is the same principle with God he wants us to believe hin, his promises, and trust that he will provide for us if we give our life to him. In Hebrews it says,
-Hebrews 10:38-39, (38) Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. (39) But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
There is nothing "strange about it. Abraham believed God for a promise of a son and it is well recorded that his wife Sarah gave birth to the son of promise well past her years of childbearing. Meaning she had already went through menopause Abraham her husband was old and past the time to produce children physiologically but yet by faith Sarah conceived Issac because the believe God,
-Romans 4:13-22, (13) "For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. (14) For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: (15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. (16) Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (17) As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. (18) Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. (19) And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: (20) He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; (21) And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. (22) And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.)
March 7, 2008 2:03 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 14:03
By God's word I can say they chose wrong, all religions do led to God. That is why Christ can say, I Am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
I Am the Way to God, the Truth of God, and the Life that exist in God. Then He adds no one can come to the Father, who is God except by Me. My faith is based on trust. I walk by faith not by sight. I was not a Christian when I was a small child. I became a Christian at the age of 36, I searched the scripture diligently to know all about Jesus. I can say beyond a dealt I know who I come to believe and I beyond passing dealt.
March 7, 2008 2:01 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 14:01
There have been studies that suggest a strong inverse correlation between religious belief and education and income.
March 7, 2008 1:36 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 13:36
Religiosity and education are negatively correlated. Just look at church attendance in American cities, the best educated cities have the lowest church attendance.
The same goes for countries in the world, the better educated a populace, the less religious.
Religous faith, by its definition, requires a suspension of rationalism.
March 7, 2008 1:29 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 13:29
Religion = Ignorance: "Many of the posters here believe they know the motives of supernatural entities, which is simply pure arrogance coupled with ignorance.
Very religious people are generally undereducated and posses below average intelligences."
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What a false statement! Really what study are you basing this statement on "Very religious people are generally undereducated and posses below average intelligences."
In my church we have 2 doctors, nurses, police officers, Administrators, and most ministers like Joel Osteen have a PhD in religion or theology. I have a Bachelor’s degree
You statement is simply not true, at all.
March 7, 2008 1:18 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 13:18
Mike :
"ignorance is not about how high your IQ is how you apply the knowledge you have."
Mike ignorance is also having a lack of knowledge. To be ignorant in an area or of a subject matter is not a right or wrong issue, it is just not knowing or being unaware of it.
People use it in a slanderous way to mean ill-mannered, inconsiderate, and rude.
March 7, 2008 1:09 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 13:09
RC, SICK N TIRED: "My heart is with you and I wish we knew eachother as well. My prayers and my love in Christ is with you. I hope that if we do not meet in this day, I hope definitely on the other side. God won't forsake you in trial and brokeness and I pray that our Lord keep your faith strong."
************************************
Thank you for that gentle reminder, and I will see you on the other side as well if we never meet.
In Christ
March 7, 2008 1:02 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 13:02
ignorance is not about how high your IQ is how you apply the knowledge you have.
March 7, 2008 12:56 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 12:56
I am a chemical engineer, evangelical Christian. I attend a medium size church with a modern service that teaches the gospel in a clear and thoughtful way. In my view, the only reason to believe something is because you have thought about it and believe it to be true. You are making a personal mistake if you try to piece together what Christianity is by looking at Christians. We are all flawed and usually have been polluted with untrue concepts of what it means to be a Christian by other flawed Christians. It takes a little more study than that to get to the truth.
March 7, 2008 12:56 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 12:56
You people have got to be kidding me. Mike, 1.1 billion muslims chose wrong????!!! What proof do you have of this???? How can you so confidently say that you are right and they are wrong???
To Jill McCormick: Yes!!!! You are ignorant or delusional, or both.
The problem with all of you is confidence in your faith in the absence of evidence to support such confidence. Do you guys know who else is confident in their faith??? Osama Bin Laden. David Koresh was too. It is this confidence, that diminishes the desire to find out more. It is the possibility of being dead wrong that prevents all of you from seeing reality, because you need your religion to make it thru the day. It is your crutch and it's your religion that instructs you to embrace that crutch, thereby creating a never-ending cycle. The only question is will you ever beat your fellow man, who believes something different, over the head with your crutch. Bin Laden has. Pat Robertson has. David Koresh has. Unfortunately, Mike and Jill with their confidence are heading down this very same path.
March 7, 2008 12:39 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 12:39
Beleiver
keyword=effective
March 7, 2008 12:22 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 12:22
The bible never even mentions the importance of education or intellect as being a good quality.
I can see why the churches frown upon intellect since more intelligent people would be less apt to follow.
I thank God my parents never allowed me to pursue higher education, it brought me closer to Jesus.
March 7, 2008 12:16 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 12:16
"Anonymous:
Click here if you want a great tool to help you develop an effective prayer life."
Shop.faithconfession to help with prayer? ? No thanks, prayer is talking to God and anyone can do it anytime or anywhere.
March 7, 2008 12:13 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 12:13
"Very religious people are generally undereducated and posses below average intelligences." Ignorance
This statement is fine. I thank God that intelligence isn't a mandate to know Christ. The rocket scientist is just as important as the street beggar and the door is open to both. God is no respecter of persons which is why people will never be able to know Him out of their high I.Q., physique, or money. It was never a pre-requisite and never will be.
God knows what he's doing, if high intellect was the His standard He'd have very few people with Him in heaven. And those who want to keep their intellect as their own standard have their reward already. I wish you well with that.
SICK N TIRED: My heart is with you and I wish we knew eachother as well. My prayers and my love in Christ is with you. I hope that if we do not meet in this day, I hope definitely on the other side. God won't forsake you in trial and brokeness and I pray that our Lord keep your faith strong.
March 7, 2008 12:07 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 12:07
Jill,
If you believe things when there is not even one shred of evidence for this belief, your are in fact, ignorant.
Cheers
March 7, 2008 12:02 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 12:02
Religion=ignorance
I consider myself very religious and my IQ is over 130. Do you consider me ignorant?
March 7, 2008 11:56 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 11:56
Angela- You are doing a very good job of explaining and offering your views without being harsh and judgmental. Keep up the good work.
March 7, 2008 11:52 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 11:52
Click here if you want a great tool to help you develop an effective prayer life.
http://shop.prayerandfaithconfessions.com/main.sc
March 7, 2008 11:45 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 11:45
Non-believer, let him who is w/o sin throw the first stone, as Jesus said.
Sounds like instead of judging others you should practice what you preach,
Chritians walk by faith and grace we are not perfect, If u r looking for purr,,,,,fection look to God,
March 7, 2008 11:37 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 7, 2008 11:37
Religious people have deluded themselves into thinking they have unique knowledge and know what their "God" wants.
Many of the posters here believe they know the motives of supernatural entities, which is simply pure arrogance coupled with igno