Comments (44)

Mischka tells Rationalist the following:
“try to visit a Muslim home and see for yourself how Muslims really are, what they teach their children, etc”.
In the movie Fitna it shows a three years old girl say “Jews are descendents of pigs and monkeys.” She was asked where did she hear that. She replied in Egyptian Arabic dialect that ”it is written in the Quran by our God”. This is a three years old child who can barely speak. Where did she learn this bigotry if not at her mother‘s bosom?

Christy,
This should be a fascinating journey. I would be interested to read how this journey enlightens or expands your personal faith.

Be sure to visit African Methodist Episcopal churches which are mostly in the upper Midwest. AND, certainly any Missonary Baptist church which are predominately African American. I would suggest the Rock of Ages Missionary Baptist Church in Hattiesburg, Mississippi, my hometown. I myself am a Caucasian Presbyterian, but find the wonderful music in the African Am. churches much like the churches I visited in South Africa.

I would also suggest you visit a mega church or two, which could include Grace Community Church in Granger, Indiana. Good luck!

Hi there,

I tried to read all the foregoing, but couldn't make any sense of most of it. Personally I think your quest is fantastic. Would be enlightening to know what most think the soul is.
I am not a Christian nor atheist nor agnostic. Just live by a simple set of rules: be nice, be clean, be busy.

As to the soul, I'm intrigued to find out just what it might be.

Jillian

when it comes down to it i dont believe in any kind of god
i'm not even sure i believe that there isnt a god because isn't that admiting that there is a god - just one that i dont believe in?
on tv (or anywhere for that matter) i feel sick when people use god as an excuse for things. i'm fine with people believing in god or whatever, what i'm not fine with is peopel inforcing their faith on others of judging them for it.
thats just how it is with me. all of this doesnt mean i dont believe in... other worldly things i suppose is the word. i believe in faries, aliens, santa and this list goes on. not as what we see them as, but as a metaphor for the fact that we dont know everything about whats out there.

the one thing that puts me off god is that he seems to control others. santa just exsists.

Benjamin Haag: said "At the risk of flippancy, I'd submit that if America has a "soul"

In Job it is written "Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the Lord hath wrought this? In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind."

Do you see "In the hand of the Lord is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind."

Look at the prophecy of Job "Let mine enemy be as the wicked, and he that riseth up against me as the unrighteous. For what is the hope of the hypocrite, though he hath gained, when God taketh away his soul?"

I ask you wise creatures, who were the enemies of Israel at the time of Jesus. "For what is the hope of the hypocrite, though he hath gained, when God taketh away his soul?"

Look at what is in the New Testemant "For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;" Look at what is written in Hebrews "Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant," Peter said "For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls."

Here is a secret ""For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God;" "Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep," "now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls." This is your fate "when God taketh away his soul?"

I'd submit that if America has a "soul"

Boy am I sick of having this stupid conversation with theist like Vinny and Reasonable Not Hateful, (not calling you stupid, just the conversation). First “Reasonable Not Hateful” unless you are a fundamentalist who does every single thing your religious text says to, then your morality does not come from your religion, you tailor your religion to your morality, so stop acting like you are more moral than atheist.
As for Vinny, leaving aside what amounts to a “god of the gaps” argument, and not to concede your points (I don’t have time now), the main thing you need to understand is that LACK of proof of one claim (evolution as you say) is NOT proof of another claim (your claim of a creator).

Good luck, Christy. America has lost its soul. It was hijacked by Christian extremists, Cheney neocons and racists, just as Islam was hijacked by Muslim extremists and terrorists.

What does the new Homeland stand for now? Pre-emptive war, Halliburton corruption, Blackwater murders with Cheney impunity and immunity, a country divided on purpose by Karl Rove's politics of fear and manipulation by the religious right, and the blatant hypocrisy of people like Haggard and Craig.

The national pastime of racist rednecks is to use the immigration issue to demonize Mexicans. Nooses hang in public high schools, corporate offices and at universities.

Social security is bankrupt and the country now has a huge Federal deficit. 45 million don't have adequate healthcare while Republican crony HMO's and drug companies get richer.

America has lost its way. Traditional Christians are too afraid to denounce the war, the injustice and the hateful exclusion of their extremists. People are actually considering electing a President who has a strong allegiance to a Church that has used electroshock therapy to "cure" gays. Muslims are the new Communist scapegoats that the demagogues, who swagger with a flag in one hand and the cross of Jesus in the other, use to rally their mindless masses against a common enemy like Hitler did with the Jews.

It's a sad state of affairs for which Americans can only blame themselves for re-electing the hateful, warmongering, corrupt Bush Administration.

You're right. I don't have a lot of good things to say about America today. Please don't parrot your "love it or leave it" litany to me. I don't love it anymore and I did leave it. I no longer need, nor want to be a part of my once beloved America I volunteered to fight and die for.

Good luck, Christy. Just don't let you search become a propaganda tool of the religious right.

CCNL -

I see you are alive and kicking old man

Why dont we drop you off at the "Sunni and Shiite mosques doing the normal bloodletting"???

My dear tom, You have struck a right cord of spiritual Harp that in turn make me Joyous and happy.
The true essence of Mankind's development depends on Spirituality, how far you have progressed in that path to reach The Divinity and accomplish the "Pure Bliss" and commune to Divine spirit?
To attend and to progress to that path you must have some basic qualities- ***Thinking of goods for fellow Human, all God created Creatures, and plants and even inanimate objects that exists surrounding You, The mother nature***. We must develop in our mind and behaviour how to respect our mother nature.
Another fundamental issue I like discuss here- Spirituality and practicing Religion [any religion] are not synonymous or same thing. Religious practices or following a particular religion is a man made affairs and the followers are assembled to adapt a Theological doctrine, develop a hierarchical institution, they select one of their chief, and the members of such institution practices various activities and learn few theories, that- written in their "Holy" book, and that book in turn written by higher accolades and educated members of that particular Religion. The followers of that religion, then try to expand their Horizon to invite ordinary people to join in their institution, thus numbers of devotees of that religion swelled. When that particular Religion gathers enough strength, when they try to influence the country's political system and try to dictate their own agenda in the name of GOD. At the end this particular religion tries to grab power structure of that county, where this religion exists. End result? The ordinary people suffers, end users become absolutely Sickos. We are witnessing such conditions in all over Islamic states [Islamic republic of..so and so] in Arab peninsula, and in South East Asia.

On the other hand [just the opposite], Spiritualism is individualise endeavour to obtain Peace of mind, pure divine Joy and ascend to higher stages of Humanity and gain true wisdom. These spirituals do not interfere in Nation's politics, nor they make Ghetto of "Brain washed Jihadi followers"[ as Islam does]". These enlightened ones give true and rightful advises to society about what is right to do and what isn't right to do, but never dictate.
Dear Tom and WP- Thanking both again for allowing me to express my personal views on Religion and spiritualism.

Christy,

I assume you will record any "pwtfft" or "demons of the demented" sitings. Apparently there are large densities in and around Sunni and Shiite mosques doing the normal bloodletting so be careful where you walk.

"Of course, all these beliefs cannot be correct, but they can all be wrong."

Of course, Tom, they could all be *human,* and, virulent protestations to the contrary, that actually *could* be 'enough to be getting on with.'

Cambridge actually seems to get on well-enough.

If you write down now the top 20 items that you believe you will find, my expectation is that at the end of your search (or a year from now, whichever comes first) that you would have confirmed at least 18 of the 20.

I cant believe the washington post is now gonna find americas soul for me. thank you so much. Will my church be now informing me on the presidential debates? Perhaps when you are done finding americas soul for all of us you could tackle the burning questions we have about searching for an informative medium in this day and age.

The image in the cheese sandwich was okay. There have been impromtu shrines built up around less, like the Madonna in the highway underpass. The funny thing about the Madonna on the grilled cheese sandwich is that the lady who discovered it didn't see the image until she had already taken a bite.

[[[[Avoid with all costs to visit Mosques, Muslim scholars, and fine dressed Muslim youths. You are young and bright women and highly educated, and they may target you and could mold you to accept their line of religion. And if by chance you accept their invitation or enter in to their domain of Sharia dome , then that will be END game for You. ]]]]

This is exactly the kind of hate filled bullsheit that passes for religion in this country. People like you are the problem. Moron.

Well, good luck. Hope you are driving a hybrid. You could save a lot of gas and trouble by admitting to yourself that you will, in fact, simply find lots of interesting people who believer lots of diverse things - most of whom could be found within walking distance of the halllowed halls. Many of those beliefs will be the standard, Bible based stuff. Other believers will defend a diverse assemblage of "non-traditional" doctrines from witches to pantheists - and atheists. It turns out that humans seem to have evolved over the millenia of primate evolutionary history to possess brains that are prone to belief. Of course, all these beliefs cannot be correct, but they can all be wrong. I hesitate to use the term "wrong" however, because one's religious beliefs are blissfully real and convincing to the believer. What does one do with all of this and maintain religious tlolerance while giving reason and scientific knowledge the respect we owe it? That is something I have pondered a long time. Maybe you will come up with some suggestions. "God" speed.

Gary:

First - You are right! You wont find any Muslims in American cemetaries. Muslims have their own cemetaries.

Second - Muslims have died for this country in this war as well. Look through the casualties - I did. I work with two Muslim veterans right now.

That was an extremely ignorant thing to say.

" gary:

visit the american cemetaries. you won't find any muslim veterans of foreign war flags on any graves"

I'm not sure that proves anything, given how long it finally took to get Pagan war dead (ie, till this year) a darn tombstone.

visit the american cemetaries. you won't find any muslim veterans of foreign war flags on any graves.

JIM writes:
"Sadly, this nation has lost its soul."

I guess that's what happens when 80+% of your citizens self-identify as Christians.

That was not an Anonymous post - that was me.

"This is a Muslim nation or soon will be unless Muslims destroy it before it becomes a Muslim nation."

America is not a Muslim nation. Whether it will be or not is not something anyone can predict or say.

"How's my grammar and sentence structure? Any difficulty understanding what I said?"

You should think about tutoring Rationalist. :-)

"??Grammer is important when trying to convey a message - otherwise you look foolish.??"

College is a good thing. Embrace it.

"Now take the Koran and the Bible and don't leave out the Book of Mormon, for examples. Speaking of looking foolish. Lucifer worshipers!"

Hmmmm...it seems like I struck a nerve here...

Who is a Lucifer worshipper? What are you talking about? Who are you talking to?

Christy,

I second MR MARK's suggestion that you include the paranormal. In fact I recommend generalizing the quest for faith to any and all beliefs that are unfounded in evidence. I also recommend going into depth about WHY people believe what they believe. That is where the gold is. You should also probe them (gently) about the implications of their beliefs and see the extent to which they have developed an integrated model of reality.

For example, I know someone who believes in astrology and reincarnation. When I asked why he believes in this stuff he told me a heartfelt story about how his "minister" (it's more of a cult really) encouraged him to contact his estranged father, which proved cathartic and constructive.

I also know someone who baptized her son so that his soul wouldn't wander the earth forever (as a ghost I guess) upon his death. When I asked her if she believed that my soul (and the souls of everyone who doesn't follow her religion) was doomed to eternal earth-wandering she said that it wasn't her place to judge people.

This is the kind of thing that facinates me. It's one thing to have goofy beliefs, but it reveals something deep about the human psyche to see WHY they believe it and to see how mental compartments are established in order to have one ultra-insulated compartment.

Boy, there seems to be a lot of angst out there about faith!

A great place to visit is the Self Realization Fellowship, SRF, Lake Shrine in Pacific Palisades CA. It's a wonderful experience. There is also a SRF facility in Encinitas CA that I have heard great things about, but I haven't been there. Good Luck, I look forward to hearing of your experiences.

" Jim:

Sadly, this nation has lost its soul"

There's a difference between losing your soul and forgetting who you are. The soul of America has *always* been here. What appears to be 'loss' of soul is just *detachment* from it.

Actual soul is not belief or law or fear or even knowing. Just is.

The real question is, 'has the soul of America lost *us.*

My experience of people with soul loss is that someone convinced them it wasn't there all along. That this or that belief or thought or experience could take 'soul' away and make them do things they don't want to do.

Ever met someone convinced they were a 'zombie?'
(Gods, my life sounds weird. Bear with me.)) Lights on, nobody home? You see it with some cultey 'missionaries,' too.

People lose pieces of soul *because it hurts.*

America hasn't lost her soul, as long as it still hurts when liberty is stepped on. Some will say that it 'takes the pain away' to believe their soul can be taken away or owned or otherwise absolved of responsibility.

Doesn't mean that soul ain't still here, alive, and kicking.

Just a matter of coming home.

This ain't over.

Before begining your quest, I suggest you read and think seriously about the message Sam Harris sends in his highly regarded book The End of Faith. The New York Times had this to say about it:

The End of Faith articulates the dangers and absurdities of organized religion so fiercely and so fearlessly that I felt relieved as I read it, vindicated, almost personally understood… Harris writes what a sizable number of us think, but few are willing to say in contemporary America… This is an important book, on a topic that, for all its inherent difficulty and divisiveness, should not be shielded from the crucible of human reason.”
— Natalie Angier, The New York Times Book Review

I've got to say, I'm appalled by some of these posts - it's depressing to see how completely rational people so often lose all sense of rationality when the topic of religion comes up.

Christy, I encourage you to visit the campus of Wheaton College, in Wheaton, IL. Many people look to big-name preachers like Pat Robertson to tell you what Evangelicals are like, but as 99% of Evangelicals will tell you - they think he's just as nuts as most atheists do. Wheaton is a great place to study the young face of Evangelicals - made up of those who take their faith seriously, but are still intelligent, well-informed, and independent thinkers.

Good luck! And I think it's a great project!

Rebecca

And PS. Please do visit a mosque (or two or three...).

Sadly, this nation has lost its soul.

Sadly, this nation has lost its soul.

"I saw plenty of statistics and scholarly papers during three challenging and exciting years studying religion in society at Harvard. What I didn’t see was average people explaining and living their faith. I found my mind wandering outside those Ivy League walls, back to mosques and synagogues and churches I visited as a journalist."

I suggest you start by walking out the gates of Harvard Yard on a Saturday night and go to 'the Pit' between the subway entrance and Au Bon Pain for the 'Preacher Feature,' where the 'Screaming Preacher' at least used to scream nasty invective against all the punkers and passersby, who took up the position of dutifully-screaming back.

If that's still happening. It puts all this Internet debate about what some Christians think in pretty stark relief.

Not for the empathically-squeamish, though, ...it's *nasty and ugly and largely futile* ...if a bit amusing at times in the Rocky-Horror-like traditions that sprung up around the spectacle.

But there's a lesson there.

mischka:

This is a Muslim nation or soon will be unless Muslims destroy it before it becomes a Muslim nation. How's my grammar and sentence structure? Any difficulty understanding what I said?

??Grammer is important when trying to convey a message - otherwise you look foolish.??

Now take the Koran and the Bible and don't leave out the Book of Mormon, for examples. Speaking of looking foolish. Lucifer worshipers!

Rationalist:

Good to see that you are still alive and spewing venom as usual!

Grammer is important when trying to convey a message - otherwise you look foolish.

"Avoid with all costs to visit Mosques, Muslim scholars, and fine dressed Muslim youths. You are young and bright women and highly educated, and they may target you and could mold you to accept their line of religion. And if by chance you accept their invitation or enter in to their domain of Sharia dome , then that will be END game for You."

Christy,

If you get a chance - PLEASE - visit Mosques, Muslim scholars and MSA meetings in universities and colleges. If you can, try to visit a Muslim home and see for yourself how Muslims really are, what they teach their children, etc. You will be pleasantly surprised.

I am glad you are doing this - Good luck in your journey!

At the risk of flippancy, I'd submit that if America has a "soul," it derives from the premise in the belief that one need not believe in a soul to be an American.

I'd also submit that those who might reiterate the claim that this is a "Christian nation" run that particular assertion by a Native American...

As long as you're spending six months on the road to produce a totally anecdotal and - by design - data- and fact-free opinion piece dedicated to faith, why not explore the paranormal at the same time?

think most of us would find stories of alien abduction just as riveting and possibly more believable than those centered on who believes what and why. I'd also have to believe that there would be quite a bit of overlap between the faithful and the alien abductees. You could get both stories from roughly the same group of people.

Do what you like. Visit Mormons, atheists, Tree worshippers, Stone loving people, Jehovah's witness, David Koresh type sects, Catholicism, Protestants, Presbyterians, Amish sects, Red Indians' ritual dancing classes, Hindus, Buddhists, occultism, snake worshippers, Latino- Iconic Mother Marry etc, but avoid one and only one place?
I explain- you must have seen pitcher-plants? *genus sarracenia*? These plants have pitcher-shaped leaves, holding a sweet nectar type secretion, which is irresistible to insects, they fell in it and trapped, and drowned in it and later been digested by the plant [carnivorous type of plants] and no escape.
Avoid with all costs to visit Mosques, Muslim scholars, and fine dressed Muslim youths. You are young and bright women and highly educated, and they may target you and could mold you to accept their line of religion. And if by chance you accept their invitation or enter in to their domain of Sharia dome , then that will be END game for You.
Just think over what I say, apply your intellect and spirituality to find proper path that may make you great and enlightened.

.
Well honey, I love your "get-up-and-go" attitude. You shrug your shoulder facing your task in finding the "soul of America"--"how hard would that be"?

Reminds me of a tale. You may want to hear about this; it might just help you in your fine task (To me, a pilgrimage, really).

It's about this bright curious little fish who got intriqued with all the talks around her of this mysterious all-powerful thing called "water"? She said to herself, " I must find this 'water.' Since everybody is talking incessantly about it, how hard would that be?" She decided to look for it. Far and wide and for a long time. She never "found" it.

Why not?

Mayhaps, because it was everywhere--and being so, it was everything.

Because she was immersed in it. Because it was she and her life itself. The look-er and the looked-for.

So, then, did she engaged in a futile mission? Not! She spent her life well.

So, God speed.

Oh, one more short story before you go.

A father was puzzled looking at his daughter scurrying around a street lamp-post. He called her to come in as it was 9 in the evening and already dark.

His daughter said she can't until she finds her lost favorite earring.

Wher at did you lose it? He asked. The child pointed at a dark corner of the street yards away fom the lamp-post.

Wha--? He stammered, Then why are looking at it here and not there?

Because, she said with a bit of exasperation, it is bright here and I can see well while it is dark there so there I won't see anything much less my earring!

That may be similar to looking for the "soul of America" only or mostly in churches and temples of theists, atheists, and agnostics, and the like. Don't forget: the "soul of America" is everywhere.

Thanks for the read. Happy hunting!
.

How about a similar blog called Losing Faith?

Would Devil do charitable acts and deeds? Would drug dealers give free samples to new customers? "This is a charitable organization" is a front.

When you're given the routine on how much a ministry gives to charity be sure to get the facts. What PERCENTAGE of his total take goes to charity? How much in his salary? How much for stained glass windows to inhance faith?

We need to know how much tax deductible "gifts to God, (wink-wink)" crosses the ocean to the Vatican each year. I've heard numbers as high as 200 billion dollars, (little health care for poor children?). That's a tax levied by the Vatican on all American tax payers, just like "money on the preacher's plate or in his hat" is a tax levied on all Americans. Do you suppose your publisher would be interested in knowing that sort of statistic? If your publisher knew would it be published or are there some things people shouldn't be burdened with?

There's plenty we don't know that's never been published. Maybe we could find a buck or two for the magazine with nerve enough to publish a bit of it. But then how many are there that are only interested in promoting faith compared to those who seek truth? Have a good trip.

E PLURIBUS UNUM

Christy, You sain, "For the next six months, I will travel around the United States for On Faith in search of who we are and what we believe."

You can save a lot of gas by simply noticing that "what we believe" is our ministers, all faiths.

Then you can notice "why" we believe our ministers. It's because they are experts at reading sacred scriptures. Thus, "what we [really] believe" is sacred scriptures. But they are too difficult to read and understand so we pass that off to the ministry.

"Who we are" is a pack of really bright and intelligent people with undying faith in con men known as preachers, priests, rabbis, ayatollahs, witch doctors, palm raders, fortune tellers, faith healers, and fleas circus operators. Without faith we are lost. We have faith.

Did you notice how much can be said about faith without ever mentioning the word God? God is an orphan. No one has faith in God. All faith is in ministry, and sacred scriptures. And our excuse is the complexity and poor quality of writings of sacred scriptures. We need experts to tell us what they say. And, above all else, what they mean.

Would ministers put themselves out of business, Billy Graham passing "the plate" to the president even? Of course not.

So this makes sense: http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul The supernatural being that only an atheist would deny was really there in the burning bush was not God at all. IT was most likely the biggest Devil of them all, Lucifer.

It these days of severe shortages of fuel for our automobiles to get us to work, school, the store and church it's wasteful to go in search of that which has already been found, "who we are and what we believe."

If you're looking for a story then ask Pat Robertson or your president to refute the finding that the supernatural being in the burning bush, the one Moses made the deal with to beat the murder rap and become the most important person that ever lived, that supernatural being was not one of the zillions of devils if not he himself, the angel that would be God, Lucifer.

Ignorance is a horrible thing. The only thing worse than ignorance is to claim ignorance is knowledge. Seek and ye shall find knowledge of God. But where will you find it? Is there knowledge of God in, "who we are and what we believe" or have we already joined forces with Lucifer against God? Good hunting.

Immigrants and the Church...

Their influence on Catholicism in London--my home--has been startling. Galvanizing and uplifting. Central Europeans--in London mostly Poles, Czechs and Lithuanians--were denied worship for over two generations. Now they are amonst the most steadfast and devout.

I've often wondered how America's Latinos are doing. After all, there are more Catholics in California and New Mexico than there are in England and Wales (over 6.5 million in two states in North America, 6 million here, of which central Europeans comprise I guess just under 1 million. Nobody knows, especially the government).

. .. ... .... GOD BLESS AMERICA .... ... .. .

Christy,

Be sure not to leave out a visit or two to Amish and Mennonites. Among the Mennonites, you might be interested in the differences between General conference and Holdeman Mennonites, which can be subtle or (sometimes) jarring.

I'm sure that if you decided to drop in on any of the Holdeman congregations in Kansas (and elsewhere), you would find yourself welcome.

Mike Muth

Hi, Christy - don't forget us atheists - the fastest growing minority in the US!

Go to meetup.com, American atheists and Atheist Alliance International to find local meetings all over the country.

The people Ive met in my atheist group are much more knowledgeable about religion than anyone I talked to when I was a churchgoer.